We now arrive at the home stretch to the Player's Handbook 3, which is to be released on March 16, 2010, or so Amazon.com informs me. I have had the luxury of closely perusing the three level 6 character cards that were shown to preview the Player's Handbook 3 Game Day event this March. Through analysis, reverse engineering, and educated estimates, I believe the that information that I have pieced together is enough to present to you the significant portions of the mechanical details of a certain new race, two new classes, two new class features, two new magic items, and a handful of new powers. Please accept them in the form of a .txt file within the following .zip archive:
rapidshare.com/files/342920117/PHB3_Spoi...
www.mediafire.com/download.php?3ilyjmymy...
Edit: Version 2 addresses several issues in the erroneous ardent character sheets.
To facilitate the ease of "playtesting" these classes, included in the above file are six sample level 10 characters: a greatspear-wielding half-elf Mantle of Clarity ardent, a triple flail-swinging wilden Battle Resilience battlemind, a fullblade-sporting githzerai Centered Breath monk, a staff-using tiefling Telepathy Focus psion, a greatspear-toting warforged Wrathful Hammer runepriest, and a superior crossbow-slinging elf Bloodbond seeker. These characters are all fairly optimized. There was, alas, no room for a shardmind Kinetic Focus psion that could match up to a Telepathy Focus psion. Multiclass power swap feats were necessary for the battlemind and the runepriest, which may skew their expected effectiveness to some extent, and liberties were taken with the trained skills for these two classes as well. The battlemind's non-AC defense bonus was assumed to be +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will. As I am profoundly inept at crafting conventional character sheets, you shall have to make do with a .txt format for these as well, though both comprehensive and truncated versions of the aforementioned sheets are contained herein. Feel free to use and/or customize them as you wilt.
Moving back to the topic of the new options, I am not comfortable with assessing this material through CharOp-style ratings, as I believe that that such should be reserved for the true release of the Player's Handbook 3. That said, passing preliminary judgment based on what has been seen is certainly possible:
• Race: Shardmind: The level 1, post-racial ability score array of the previewed shardmind Kinetic Focus psion is Strength 8, Constitution 13, Dexterity 10, Intelligence 19, Wisdom 17, Charisma 10. That, of course, clearly shows that the shardmind is an Intelligence/Wisdom race, thereby shattering all hopes for a Constitution/Intelligence player race. Though this race receives bonuses to the two (supposedly) most useful skills in the system, psychic resistance, two bonus languages, telepathy, and the benefits that being a living construct grants, it is ultimately a so-so race from a mechanical perspective. It is difficult for the shardmind to match up to the over-the-top racial features and racial encounter power of its competition, the deva. However, it occurs to me that Wizards may just present this race in a manner akin to that of the changeling in the Eberron Player's Guide, that is, as a race with +2 Intelligence that can then pick between +2 Constitution and +2 Wisdom. I dearly desire for this to be the case.
• Class: Battlemind: A defender class with Constitution as its primary ability score would show much promise, but a close inspection reveals that its defender features, Battlemind's Demand, Blurred Step, and Mind Spike establish it as little more than a psionic clone of the fighter. Though it wields a swordmage-esque mark in the form of Battlemind's Demand, perhaps even mimicking Double Aegis with a power point spent, swordmage tactics cannot be applied due to the class's abysmal "stickiness", forcing the battlemind to remain adjacent to the marked enemy. An enemy shifting away from a fighter to charge or perform a ranged/area attack receives a melee basic attack as thanks, but all the battlemind can do with Blurred Step is shift along with it (or perhaps not if difficult terrain is present), not attacking due to her opportunity action having been devoured. Mind Spike inflicts more damage than Combat Challenge on average when it works, but since it requires the enemy to deal damage, enemies shall go unpunished for attacking an ally half of the time, and this is a reaction rather than an interrupt as well. The class lacking a Constitution-based melee basic attack is another nail in its coffin. Terrible. Iron Fist is an extremely potent at-will power, however, and perhaps the second of the two battlemind builds shall show more promise.
• Class: Runepriest: I am not quite certain of the flavor role that this class is intended to fill, given that clerics can already bring to bear glyph- and sigil-themed powers such as Righteous Brand, Rune of Peace, and Seal of Binding. The Wrathful Hammer runepriest build before us, which is a Strength/Constitution-based melee weapon-wielder, is an irreproachable beast. Its Rune Master class feature allows it to adapt to the situation at hand, enabling alpha strikes and offensives with Destruction, and promoting cautious safekeeping with Protection. The Wrathful Hammer class feature itself renders it a dire prospect to ever lay a hand on the runepriest, for the bonus to damage rolls that it grants the character is potent and untyped (therefore stacking with itself), which grows even crueler when marking is involved. It should also be noted that Flames of Purity is an encounter power that provides a modest amount of surgeless healing, which may lead to out-of-combat chicanery and surge-s****. Both runes of the Word of Diminishment at-will power are overwhelmingly effective as well. With a class as spectacular as this, I do eagerly await the second runepriest build. By the way, this is a divine class without forced training in Religion, which is a first. I do find the prospect of a warforged runepriest/Warpriest to be intriguing both by virtue of both its marking and its silly name.
• Psion Class Feature: Kinetic Focus: I foresee an ill future for this class build. The Telepathy Focus psion is the substantially more well-supported build, thanks to options such as the Mindwarp Staff of Unfailing Talent (see below), Resplendent Gloves, the Phrenic Crown, and the Psychic Lock paragon feat. Additionally, Will has been statistically proven (through analyses of the Monster Manual and the Monster Manual 2) to be the lowest of the three non-AC defenses on average, with Fortitude and Reflex, of course, being the higher ones that the Kinetic Focus psion tends to attack. Kinetic Trawl and Force Hammer are underwhelming at-will powers as well.
• Ardent Class Feature: Mantle of Elation: The difference in durability between a Mantle of Elation ardent and a Mantle of Clarity ardent is the distinction between night and day, and that, I believe, is what sets apart the former build as the superior one overall. A bonus to damage rolls for opportunity attacks is somewhat less valuable than a bonus to defenses against opportunity attacks, however, but Constitution as the secondary score for the Mantle of Elation outweighs that. A level 11 half-elf Mantle of Elation ardent/bard/Half-Elf Emissary with Constitution 19+2, Charisma 21+2, the Widened Mantle paragon feat, and a speculative ardent "Improved Mantle of Elation" (SAIMOE, for shot) heroic feat, similar to the Clarified Instincts heroic feat, might just be able to grant a +6 racial bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Streetwise checks and a +4 untyped bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to all allies within 10 feet.
• Ardent At-Will Power 1: Demoralizing Strike: Imposing a -2 penalty to all defenses with a single at-will power is quite powerful, especially in comparison to, say, the bard's Guiding Strike. Its augment 2, while ally-unfriendly, can send the defenses of a close burst 1 of enemies spiraling downwards.
• Seeker At-Will Power 1: Grappling Spirits: A ranged basic attack that slows the target and denies it shifting is wonderful.
• Magic Staff: Mindwarp Staff of Unfailing Talent: A less costly Staff of Ruin that affects only psychic powers, and psionic characters receive a conditional bonus to extra critical damage as well. An alternative item tax for Telepathy Focus psions, Virtue of Cunning bards, and certain types of wizards.
As an aside, allow me to meticulously showcase several errors that I had noted down in the Player's Handbook 3 Game Day sample characters:
• The ardent's Mantle of Elation should grant a +4 bonus (his Constitution modifier) to damage rolls, not +3. Also, the defense targeted by his Adrenaline Strike daily power is not listed down.
• The battlemind is lacking a total of 4 or 5 points of non-AC defenses, as the +2 Reflex from her heavy shield and the battlemind non-AC defense bonuses were not factored in.
• The monk should have either 47 hit points without Toughness or 52 hit points with Toughness, not 58. Additionally, she should have either 7 healing surges without Durable or 9 healing surges with Durable, not 11. Furthermore, her ability scores add up to a mere 20-point buy.
• The psion's Forceful Push encounter class feature is reported to have been intended to be used as a minor action, not as a free action.
• The runepriest should have Reflex 16, not 15, as the +1 Reflex from his light shield was not taken into account. Additionally, his hit points should be either 55 without Toughness or 60 with Toughness, not 49.
• The seeker should have either 8 healing surges without Durable or 10 healing surges without Durable, not an inexplicable 12.
That is all. Feel free to discuss these detailed revelations, perhaps offering corrections should an error be identified.
However, it occurs to me that Wizards may just present this race in a manner akin to that of the changeling in the Eberron Player's Guide, that is, as a race with +2 Intelligence that can then pick between +2 Constitution and +2 Wisdom. I dearly desire for this to be the case.
I am be more than willing to bet that you will be sorely disappointed, so I suggest you just go ahead get over it now.
I've said it to many home-brewers in the past, and I'll say it again to speculators. The Changeling doesn't get to do what it gets to do just because the developers realized that it was a viable mechanic. The entirety of the Changeling's racial flavor is based on adaptability and flexibility, and the flexible ability score boost is a thematic extension of that. Granting the same feature to another race is exactly the same from a thematic point of view as giving Dwarves radiant resistance or racial bow proficiency. Sure, it's balanced and mechanically viable, but it's not going to happen, because it doesn't make any thematic sense.
I think you'd be much better off hoping that they're just +2 CON / +2 INT and that whoever created the sample character just messed up their point buy. After all, if I recall correctly, that has happened before.
EDIT: That or hope that it's a "split" race like Shifters, I guess...
• Psion Class Feature: Kinetic Focus: I foresee an ill future for this class build. The Telepathy Focus psion is the substantially more well-supported build, thanks to options such as the Mindwarp Staff of Unfailing Talent (see below), Resplendent Gloves, the Phrenic Crown, and the Psychic Lock paragon feat. Additionally, Will has been statistically proven (through analyses of the Monster Manual and the Monster Manual 2) to be the lowest of the three non-AC defenses on average, with Fortitude and Reflex, of course, being the higher ones that the Kinetic Focus psion tends to attack. Kinetic Trawl and Force Hammer are underwhelming at-will powers as well.
Because we already know what every single feat, power, PP, ED, and magic item in PHB3 and Psionic Power will be, right?
Also, remember, while it might not be advantaged as a Battlemind, it will be optimal in the Telekinetic Psion build. I immediately think of G-Bits / D.R.A.G.O.O.N.s / Moebius Zero as inspiration for a Telekinetic construct character – a character that can control many other weapons from afar to attack simultaneously. Shardmind seems to also emphasis this with Shard Swarm, and I like the feel that name points to.
So, is there a reason people want a Con/Int race other than 'there isn't one'? Sounds like Martial Controller all over again ...
Certain swordmage, conjurer wizards, artificers, and starlocks would certainly appreciate it...
Overall, this sounds like a very Hit Or Miss handbook. Half the classes sound awesome, and I'd play them in a heartbeat. The other half sounds trite, uninspired copypasta from old themes with a dull twist slapped on them.
It doesn't help that this is the third handbook with divine classes, hence the reason the shadow source is waiting another year, yet from the looks of it, the runepriest is just What The Strength Cleric Should Have Been. Nor the drain on class space to allow the Hybrid rules. Nor the fact that they can't even give some of their ideas interesting names, let alone make them more than "Like this martial class, but with PSI!"
If you want the shardmind to be a Con/Int race, then make it so! WotC hasn't banned house ruling yet.
You didn't hear about the upcoming errata? They're banning all non-official rules!
But no seriously, we might or might not houserule it, depending on what we actually see of them in the PHB3. We've already houseruled Deva and Kalashtar both as +Wis, +Int/Cha races for campaign flavour reasons, and Genasi too, so we're not above changing stuff.
So, is there a reason people want a Con/Int race other than 'there isn't one'? Sounds like Martial Controller all over again ...
Can be good for some types of Swordmage builds, also I would love one for my artificer as con/int is what I need to be the non-summoning model of artificer.
So, is there a reason people want a Con/Int race other than 'there isn't one'? Sounds like Martial Controller all over again ...
Can be good for some types of Swordmage builds, also I would love one for my artificer as con/int is what I need to be the non-summoning model of artificer.
Warrior Forge desires Int/Wis, no summons. But yeah, Con/Int would still be appreciated.
So, is there a reason people want a Con/Int race other than 'there isn't one'? Sounds like Martial Controller all over again ...
Can be good for some types of Swordmage builds, also I would love one for my artificer as con/int is what I need to be the non-summoning model of artificer.
Warrior Forge desires Int/Wis, no summons. But yeah, Con/Int would still be appreciated.
I think Archangel meant Battlesmith rather than Warrior Forge, Ritter. But Tinkerers too like Con/Int – They just are slightly better with Int/Wis, and they still are manageable with Con/Wis (considering that Summons play off HP, and thus +Con means better summons).
"Hi I am a telepath but I can only talk to you telepathically once per every minutes!".........Fail
I am currently in a campaign where I play a kalashtar sorcerer and we have a warforged psion....my kalashtar does a much better job communicating with the party than the warforged.....I feel bad as I feel I am really stealing the thunder away from the Psion....
Really don't like the Shardmind either.....would rather they had made feats to add to a warforged to make it more psionic instead
I really hope they at least have some cool psionic oriented rituals......preferably where you spend healing surges instead of ritual components.
Meh. I don't think that 'these builds would appreciate bonus stats' is sufficient reason to give a race those stats.
Perhaps, but it certainly is an incentive to think up a race around that theme, rather than Another Dex/Wis race, etc.
Of course, this would all be solved if they released........Horseshoecrabfolk!
Meh. I don't think that 'these builds would appreciate bonus stats' is sufficient reason to give a race those stats.
If your going to insist on a better reason, how about I'd love a race of "Genius Bruiser" big (CON) intelligent (INT) yet gentle (not STR) creatures for their fun story dynamic.
I.e. Thri-kreen backworked as Dex/Wis, Mul as Str/Con.
Of course, this would all be solved if they released........Horseshoecrabfolk!
I am still eagerly awaiting these.
Afterall: Craaaaab people, Craaaaab people, etc etc.
Unfortunately, we just got another Dex/Wis race and another Str/Con race in Dark Sun.
I.e. Thri-kreen backworked as Dex/Wis, Mul as Str/Con.
What's unfortunate about that? Those stat pairings fit both races better then any other, considering their fluff.
What's unfortunate about that? Those stat pairings fit both races better then any other, considering their fluff.
I have to agree. I'd rather that races have the ability score boosts that fit them best thematically and not just have specific mechanical combination for the sake of having a spceific mechanical combination. I'm really more a fan of coming up with a concept (race, class, or even a specific character!) and then attributing mechanics to that concept instead of the other way around...
I can see why some might prefer the other way, however, so I won't press the issue. I just think that DEX/WIS is fine for the Thri-Kreen and that STR/CON is fine for the Mul and that there wasn't any particular reason to add in a new CON/INT race to Dark Sun.
What's unfortunate about that? Those stat pairings fit both races better then any other, considering their fluff.
I have to agree. I'd rather that races have the ability score boosts that fit them best thematically and not just have specific mechanical combination for the sake of having a spceific mechanical combination. I'm really more a fan of coming up with a concept (race, class, or even a specific character!) and then attributing mechanics to that concept instead of the other way around...
I can see why some might prefer the other way, however, so I won't press the issue. I just think that DEX/WIS is fine for the Thri-Kreen and that STR/CON is fine for the Mul and that there wasn't any particular reason to add in a new CON/INT race to Dark Sun.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think that Dex/Wis for Thri-kreen and Str/Con for Mul are the right choices, thematically. It's just from the perspective of a player who really wants races of less-supported ability-score bonuses, it's a bit unfortunate.
I want another Str/Cha race. I want another Str/Wis race. I want another Con/Cha race. I want another Str/Dex race. I want another Dex/Con race, and another class and/or build that will support it. I want Con/Int more than anything, because I want a race that will be the best at certain builds of the Swordmage, Artificer, Wizard, and Warlock. Right now, I don't have that. Right now, it doesn't look like I'll be getting that in 2010. Any of that.
On the other hand, I'm really happy for another Int/Wis race. While I might be slightly upset for what Shardmind COULD have been, I'm REALLY happy that we got a second Int/Wis race. There's so many cool optimal options for an Int/Wis race, and a even more really good Advantaged ones too. I'm really happy for that.
I'm really happy to get another Con/Wis race. It makes sense really – Divine and Primal both draw on those ability scores heavily. I'm really happy to get Wilden.
I'm really happy to get Thri-kreen in ANY form. I was hoping it might be Str/Wis or Str/Dex, but Dex/Wis makes more sense from a Tactile perspective.
I'm really happy to get Psionics, especially the Ardent and Battlemind. I'm really happy to get new builds of Fighter, Warlock, and Shaman in Dark Sun. I'm really happy to get Hybrid-Classes, though I don't know if I'll use them anytime soon. I'm really happy to get new powers associated with skills. I'm really happy to get a new build of the Fighter, two of the Ranger, one of the Rogue, and two of the Warlord in Martial Power 2. I'm also really happy that there will be new builds and powers in the Red-Box's expansions, since we'll be seeing more of classic classes in those.
So a slight upset of having 4 Dex/Wis races and 4 Str/Con races when there's only 1 of many other races and 0 Int/Con races is like a drop in the bucket compared to all the other happinesses that WotC has brought me this year.
Revenant
Gnoll
and Kobold when it is one day made official-official rather than just MM >_<
MAKE THE KOBOLD ALREADY, DAMMIT WOTC!
edit: here's to hoping shardminds can somehow also be int/con
I think the reason why people are so attached to the Shardmind having Int/Con, is because its the one race who, without knowing their fluff, by shear appearance look like they could be a plausible Int/Con race. The fact they share traits with warforged also makes one wonder why there isn't con in there.
+1
I think the reason why people are so attached to the Shardmind having Int/Con, is because its the one race who, without knowing their fluff, by shear appearance look like they could be a plausible Int/Con race. The fact they share traits with warforged also makes one wonder why there isn't con in there.
+1
+2
I think the reason why people are so attached to the Shardmind having Int/Con, is because its the one race who, without knowing their fluff, by shear appearance look like they could be a plausible Int/Con race. The fact they share traits with warforged also makes one wonder why there isn't con in there.
+1
+2
+3
I think the reason why people are so attached to the Shardmind having Int/Con, is because its the one race who, without knowing their fluff, by shear appearance look like they could be a plausible Int/Con race. The fact they share traits with warforged also makes one wonder why there isn't con in there.
+1
+2
+3
+4
....I like bandwagons, sue me.
I think the reason why people are so attached to the Shardmind having Int/Con, is because its the one race who, without knowing their fluff, by shear appearance look like they could be a plausible Int/Con race. The fact they share traits with warforged also makes one wonder why there isn't con in there.
+1
+2
+3
+4
....I like bandwagons, sue me.
+5
....I'd sue you, but I like bandwagons too.
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11612948&po...
I don't use twitter, so I have no idea where the tweets he refers to are to link instead.
Muls are apparently +2 Con/ +2 Str or Wis.
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=11612948&po...
I don't use twitter, so I have no idea where the tweets he refers to are to link instead.
This could be a reflection of the half human part of their heritage given them some versatility. But if this is really true it gives credance to the +int/ +wis or +con for the shardmind. It in no way gives us any reason to believe it, just making the ability to choose not quite such a corner case anymore. I would love to see an int/con race. I would have liked to see more versatility from the racial stats of the PHB3 races in genral.
Runepriest- want the fluff, looks interesting, maybe a divine class I'm willing to play besides the paladin(pocket cases only)
Battlemind- Looking interesting, love psionics, love defenders, will likely love this
Shardmind- Looking forward to these guys, an interesting race to throw alongside a warforged
PHB3 is looking to be on the top of my buy list.
• Class: Battlemind: A defender class with Constitution as its primary ability score would show much promise, but a close inspection reveals that its defender features, Battlemind's Demand, Blurred Step, and Mind Spike establish it as little more than a psionic clone of the fighter. Though it wields a swordmage-esque mark in the form of Battlemind's Demand, perhaps even mimicking Double Aegis with a power point spent, swordmage tactics cannot be applied due to the class's abysmal "stickiness", forcing the battlemind to remain adjacent to the marked enemy. An enemy shifting away from a fighter to charge or perform a ranged/area attack receives a melee basic attack as thanks, but all the battlemind can do with Blurred Step is shift along with it (or perhaps not if difficult terrain is present), not attacking due to her opportunity action having been devoured. Mind Spike inflicts more damage than Combat Challenge on average when it works, but since it requires the enemy to deal damage, enemies shall go unpunished for attacking an ally half of the time, and this is a reaction rather than an interrupt as well. The class lacking a Constitution-based melee basic attack is another nail in its coffin. Terrible. Iron Fist is an extremely potent at-will power, however, and perhaps the second of the two battlemind builds shall show more promise.
I don't think I could disagree more with your evaluation of the battlemind. It has the greatest range for a marking power (burst 3 instead of 2), and Mind Spike is easily a match for Combat Challenge because Mind Spike always hits. High-level elite or solo soldier monsters can sometimes ignore the fighter by virtue of a high AC, but they ignore the battlemind knowing that if they do hit a different PC, they're taking exactly what they give.
The lack of a con-based basic attack is an issue (correctable with a feat), but is offset by the ability to have a 20-con defender at 1st level. Combine that with the already-mentioned potency of Iron Fist, as well as the Battle Resilience power, and I think that battlemind will give any other defender a run for its money.
I smell a kobold battlemind in the works O_O MUAHAHAHAHA
Considering that the majoirty of classes now have BAs based on their prime stat when that stat isn't Str or Dex, it seems pretty far fetched to me that the Battlemind has absolutely no Con BAs. And in the very remote off chance that it doesn't, Psionic Power is coming out in August (I think it's August). If the PHB3 doesn't have a Con BA, then PsiP will.
EDIT: I am looking at the elven resilient battlemind on the dark sun character sheet.... they do have CON for their basic attacks.
And either the Carrikal (axe) has either +3 proficiency or this elf has weapon expertise (axe)......
These character sheets suck since they don't even list your darn feats >_<
• Class: Battlemind: A defender class with Constitution as its primary ability score would show much promise, but a close inspection reveals that its defender features, Battlemind's Demand, Blurred Step, and Mind Spike establish it as little more than a psionic clone of the fighter. Though it wields a swordmage-esque mark in the form of Battlemind's Demand, perhaps even mimicking Double Aegis with a power point spent, swordmage tactics cannot be applied due to the class's abysmal "stickiness", forcing the battlemind to remain adjacent to the marked enemy. An enemy shifting away from a fighter to charge or perform a ranged/area attack receives a melee basic attack as thanks, but all the battlemind can do with Blurred Step is shift along with it (or perhaps not if difficult terrain is present), not attacking due to her opportunity action having been devoured. Mind Spike inflicts more damage than Combat Challenge on average when it works, but since it requires the enemy to deal damage, enemies shall go unpunished for attacking an ally half of the time, and this is a reaction rather than an interrupt as well. The class lacking a Constitution-based melee basic attack is another nail in its coffin. Terrible. Iron Fist is an extremely potent at-will power, however, and perhaps the second of the two battlemind builds shall show more promise.
I don't think I could disagree more with your evaluation of the battlemind. It has the greatest range for a marking power (burst 3 instead of 2), and Mind Spike is easily a match for Combat Challenge because Mind Spike always hits. High-level elite or solo soldier monsters can sometimes ignore the fighter by virtue of a high AC, but they ignore the battlemind knowing that if they do hit a different PC, they're taking exactly what they give.The lack of a con-based basic attack is an issue (correctable with a feat), but is offset by the ability to have a 20-con defender at 1st level. Combine that with the already-mentioned potency of Iron Fist, as well as the Battle Resilience power, and I think that battlemind will give any other defender a run for its money.
The paladin's is a burst 5 to my knowledge.
Muls are apparently +2 Con/ +2 Str or Wis.
I already said this in the other thread, but I'm going to repeat it. This sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea, and unless better evidence is shown, I'm going to assume this was completely made up by somebody who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
Muls are apparently +2 Con/ +2 Str or Wis.
I already said this in the other thread, but I'm going to repeat it. This sounds like an absolutely horrendous idea, and unless better evidence is shown, I'm going to assume this was completely made up by somebody who had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.
Good thing you're not a developer then, because more options are always preferrable as long as they are balanced.
D&D 101: Thematics are mutable.
...because more options are always preferrable as long as they are balanced.
Untrue. The options also need to remain thematically appropriate. They need to make some sort of sense. What that means is that you don't do something just to do it. If the addition of options would not be thematically approrpiate, then it shouldn't be done. They could very easily make a Martial Controller if mechanics were the only concern, but there's not enough thematic incentive to do so. They could very easily make a CON/INT race if mechanics were the only concern, but there has yet to be enough thematic incentive to do so.
It's actually both a thematic and mechanical problem, though. Fluff justification is important for racial features and ability score boosts (which is exactly why only Changelings currently get that sort of options), and nothing that I know about Mul suggest that they are anywhere near as thematically flexible or versatile as Changelings are. Furthermore, that specific set of flexible ability score options presents the mechanical problem of how to deal with the race's NADs, which isn't impossible but is much more complex than it needs to be, especially since there's not enough fluff justification for the dilemma to begin with.
twitter.com/criticalhits
Honestly, I have no idea who or what "criticalhits" is, but if what they report is true (and I remain skeptical), then we better get a damn good thematic reason for why Mul get to do this, because nothing that I know about Mul suggest that this is any better of an idea than giving Elves cold resistance or giving Dwarves racial bow proficiency or giving Halflings aberrant origin. Sure, you can do those things, but that doesn't mean that you should. They're balanced, but balance is not the only concern.
No offence intended, but it's probably because their idea of thematics is vastly different than yours. Again, thematics mean nothing in a game where you can completely ignore it and make up your own fluff. All of this is made up, none of it is actually real. If WotC wants to give dwarves bow proficiency, then D&D dwarves will have bow proficiency. Not all options have to fit the 'standard' fantasy tropes.
There is absolutely nothing stopping them from adding an interesting racial idea like variant ability score boosts, despite the 'flexabilily' of changlings (which is not actually that flexable. There are Dexlings and Intlings. Only two choices. They are statistically similar to the Shifters, except they don't get seperate encounter powers and share feat options). This is a game afterall, and mechanics will always rule over fluff. Reminder: Fluff is Mutable.
I'm sorry if I sound confrontational, but it's always irritating to me when someone wants to limit interesting and expansive ideas because of personal biases. It just sounds like you don't want them to have variable ability score boosts because it's the changlings 'thing'. I find it hard to believe that changlings are the masters of versatility and flexability when the most vanilla race of all is infinitely more versatile (that would be us. Humans
. can't beat +2 to any score and a free feat and at-will).Honestly, I have no idea who or what "criticalhits" is, but if what they report is true (and I remain skeptical), then we better get a damn good thematic reason for why Mul get to do this, because nothing that I know about Mul suggest that this is any better of an idea than giving Elves cold resistance or giving Dwarves racial bow proficiency or giving Halflings aberrant origin. Sure, you can do those things, but that doesn't mean that you should. They're balanced, but balance is not the only concern.
Here you are: being Muls hybrids, the genetic combination is a bit faulty, giving rise to either stronger but dimmer-witted individuals or the contrary, depending on generation, and ultimately depending on the random genetic cobination. Add the fact that Con + Wis is exactly as one of their parents and that if you make a taller dwarf you've also made somthing stronger than a human and what I see is thematic coherence.
What's more, Crimson, I think we're all getting tired of your tones, which should be lowered a tad or two when reaching over to expressions like "Total bull" in response to civil posts.
Also, CriticalHits is pretty reliable.
Pretty much a transcription of the seminar.Honestly, I have no idea who or what "criticalhits" is, but if what they report is true (and I remain skeptical), then we better get a damn good thematic reason for why Mul get to do this, because nothing that I know about Mul suggest that this is any better of an idea than giving Elves cold resistance or giving Dwarves racial bow proficiency or giving Halflings aberrant origin. Sure, you can do those things, but that doesn't mean that you should. They're balanced, but balance is not the only concern.
No offence intended, but it's probably because their idea of thematics is vastly different than yours. Again, thematics mean nothing in a game where you can completely ignore it and make up your own fluff. All of this is made up, none of it is actually real. If WotC wants to give dwarves bow proficiency, then D&D dwarves will have bow proficiency. Not all options have to fit the 'standard' fantasy tropes.
There is absolutely nothing stopping them from adding an interesting racial idea like variant ability score boosts, despite the 'flexabilily' of changlings (which is not actually that flexable. There are Dexlings and Intlings. Only two choices. They are statistically similar to the Shifters, except they don't get seperate encounter powers and share feat options). This is a game afterall, and mechanics will always rule over fluff. Reminder: Fluff is Mutable.
I'm sorry if I sound confrontational, but it's always irritating to me when someone wants to limit interesting and expansive ideas because of personal biases. It just sounds like you don't want them to have variable ability score boosts because it's the changlings 'thing'. I find it hard to believe that changlings are the masters of versatility and flexability when the most vanilla race of all is infinitely more versatile (that would be us. Humans . can't beat +2 to any score and a free feat and at-will).
I don't think Crimson is trying to say that only changelings (and humans) should get versatile ability scores. Rather, the demand is that selectable ability scores correspond to fluff about versatility. From what I've picked up (never played Dark Sun), muls do not exemplify versatility, so the fluff implications of versatility in ability scores would contradict the previous fluff for muls in Dark Sun. Not saying it can't change - just that changing it might seem arbitrary and unnecessary. Then again, the alternative fluff about muls taking more or less after their dwarvish side sounds good. In fact, I like the idea of some muls being dimwitted slaves while others take more after their mixed ancestry. Makes for some RP-hooks, where Str + Con is a typical mul slave (with any RP hooks from there), while a Con + Wis mul is an anomoly, a "backslide" into the independence of the initial crossbreeds. I am quite happy to see that.
So where am I siding? I like progress, but let's not sacrifice fluff for the sake of progress. Flavor may be mutable, but to have any sort of mechanics, there has to be some starting point.
Wisdom is also a secondary ability that just so happens to correspond to a particularly fitting paragon path for a gladiator: the Pit Fighter.
I really don't see this as being an exemplification of versatility, so much as offering the race two fundamental paths: that of the martial variety, and that of the primal. The two paths muls seem to be best at, and moreover, the two paths that at least half of the parentage (the dwarf half) are likewise good at. Their human parentage, on the other hand, DOES exemplify versatility. Thus, they get a slight nod from that angle as well.
Really, I'm with the posters who would like to see this as a common theme for more races in general.
In fact, this is how I'd like to see more racial options presented later on. You can be a standard eladrin, for example, with Dex/Int, or you can choose this other eladrin option where you start with different adjusted stats (say, Int/Cha) and one different racial feature that you must take with it, yet is a mere minor change (for example, immortal origin instead of feywild).
I don't think Crimson is trying to say that only changelings (and humans) should get versatile ability scores. Rather, the demand is that selectable ability scores correspond to fluff about versatility. From what I've picked up (never played Dark Sun), muls do not exemplify versatility, so the fluff implications of versatility in ability scores would contradict the previous fluff for muls in Dark Sun.
I've also never followed Dark Sun, so I have no knowledge of Muls aside from what has been discussed online in the last few days concerning the new setting. That said, I find nothing thematically inappropriate about giving a race that's half-human a mechanical manifestation of versatility. Humans are obviously the most versatile race, and Changelings are versatile independent of any evolutionary relationship with Humans simply because they can change their appearance at-will. Point being, half breeds typically express traits from both parents, and if one of your parents is Human then why shouldn't versatility be inhereted? The other prominent Half-Human is the Half-Elf, and they get Dilettante and access to the Versatile Master feat; this isn't ability score flexibility, but it is definitely a way to represent versatility. The way I see it, it seems like Muls will express adaptability in a way that's different from the Half-Elf, which is good!
Really, the only hole in this line of reasoning is Half-Orcs, who do not seem to inheret the Human's adaptability. Of course this might have something to do with the fact that in 4e Half-Orcs are a distinct, breeding race of uncertain origins (not necessarily crosses between Humans and Orcs).
From the character sheet, it seems they get a racial bonus to Fort as well as to AC. When you already have Str/Con or Con/Wis, why the bonus to Fort?
It's just someone tweeting from a seminar, so it's entirely possible they've just misheard or misunderstood something. Maybe what was actually said was that the devs were initially undecided whether Muls should get Str or Wis and that they (the devs) had a choice to make between the two, rather than that the player of a Mul character would get a choice. I can see how someone feverishly tweeting what he's hearing (and therefore only having half his attention on what's actually being said) could make such a mistake.
That sounds quite probable, and right now, I think that this makes a lot more sense than Mul actually having +2 CON and +2 STR / +2 WIS.
Again, thematics mean nothing in a game where you can completely ignore it and make up your own fluff.
By that logic, mechanics mean nothing in a game when you can just change whatever mechanics you don't like. I don't completely disagree, but the default presented thematics and mechanics for an option should still make sense together.
I'm sorry if I sound confrontational, but it's always irritating to me when someone wants to limit interesting and expansive ideas because of personal biases.
Personal bias has nothing to do with it. What I have are legitimate thematic and mechanical concerns.
It just sounds like you don't want them to have variable ability score boosts because it's the changlings 'thing'.
Untrue. I don't want them to have variable ability score boosts because it doesn't fit any fluff that I've ever seen for the Mul. If Mul were thematically as flexible and versatile as Changelings are (or at least more thematically flexible and versatile than most other races), then I'd see absolutely no problem with their having versatile ability score boosts.
Here you are: being Muls hybrids, the genetic combination is a bit faulty, giving rise to either stronger but dimmer-witted individuals or the contrary, depending on generation, and ultimately depending on the random genetic cobination. Add the fact that Con + Wis is exactly as one of their parents and that if you make a taller dwarf you've also made somthing stronger than a human and what I see is thematic coherence.
And this would be fine if that were actually true, but I've never seen any previous Mul fluff to that effect. It's possible to justify anything, but that doesn't mean that it should be done, and it certainly doesn't mean that it isn't a strong disconnect from what's been done before.
... your [tone] should be lowered a tad or two when reaching over to expressions like "Total bull"...
You're probably right. I've edited the response.
Their human parentage, on the other hand, DOES exemplify versatility.
...half breeds typically express traits from both parents, and if one of your parents is Human then why shouldn't versatility be inhereted?
I'm honestly not sure why this is relavant. Just because Half-Elves have human parentage and emphasize versatility doesn't mean that everything with human parentage should. In fact, it's been the case that they don't always do, the Mul in previous editions actually being a good example. You might also take a look at the Half-Orcs from previous editions (or possibly even this one depending on how you interpret the Half-Orc fluff).
I'm worried about Mul's NADs.
That too. Ending up with STR/CON or CON/WIS does cause a NAD problem similar to what the Kalashtar experiences if you go with the former.
From the character sheet, it seems they get a racial bonus to Fort as well as to AC. When you already have Str/Con or Con/Wis, why the bonus to Fort?
The character sheets actually have a lot of math mistakes, as has been shown in the other thread, so I wouldn't try to determine racial defense bonuses based on that...
I'm just trying to work this out.
Frankly, WotC have the right to change the fluff of whatever they want, but I'm pretty sure they want to stick as close as possible to the old Dark Sun.
Monster Manual is developed. Doppelgangers are included as a race in the end. They are given +int/+cha as their racial stat bumps. +Cha is perhaps a given for the race, given their MO, and they may have been given Int over Dex because the Monster Manual races include a large number of +Dex races, including two fairy popular monster races (Drow and Goblin) that are Dex/Cha.
Now, fast forward a few years to the development of Eberron. Changelings are a fairly iconic feature of Eberron, so naturally they'll be included. Giving players that have been playing MM Doppelgangers the ability to port their character forward into a race that has fuller support seems like a nice option. There's a problem, though; Changelings are consummate rogues, and Int/Cha is a somewhat mediocre statline for rogues mechanically, with just a secondary stat and a dump stat. So the devs decide to get the best of both worlds - they give Changelings the ability to select either Int or Dex for a stat boost. This allows players already playing Doppelgangers that rely on intelligence to port their characters forward to a more full-featured race without losing their int boost, while also allowing Changelings to be excellent rogues mechanically. (And better at sneaky stuff in general.) It fits the race not because changelings are versatile, but because "smooth", "agile" and "clever" are all reasonable things to describe changelings as.
Now, there's no more reason to believe the above version of events than there is to believe that changelings were given a flexible statline to represent their versatillity, but as far as I can tell there's no less reason.
Their human parentage, on the other hand, DOES exemplify versatility....half breeds typically express traits from both parents, and if one of your parents is Human then why shouldn't versatility be inhereted?
I'm honestly not sure why this is relavant. Just because Half-Elves have human parentage and emphasize versatility doesn't mean that everything with human parentage should. In fact, it's been the case that they don't always do, the Mul in previous editions actually being a good example. You might also take a look at the Half-Orcs from previous editions (or possibly even this one depending on how you interpret the Half-Orc fluff).
It's relevant because it means that the Mul's stat flexibility isn't as far-fetched as those against it seem to be suggesting. Even if not every human hybrid race (possibly Half-Orc) has a mechanic to showcase versatility, it's still reasonable that, given human parentage, a hybrid race could be versatile. And if anything, previous editions are irrelevant to the 4e Mul. The Half-Orc is the shining example of that. Why shouldn't the Mul be re-invented as well? And furthermore, the Mul's supposed racial ability against saves (unclear on this) and possible bonus healing surge are Dwarf-like traits, so it's not really a stretch that they would have some minor nod to their human progenitor to give mechanical relevance to their dual heritage.
IMO, this ability score flexibility fits just fine thematically.
That's not a totally terrible explanation, but it's not a particularly good one either. After all, consider that there are many existing races who are iconically members of some class but don't have perfect abilty score boots for that class because there was a more thematic set of ability score boosts.
Tiefling are supposed to make good Infernal Warlocks but get no CON bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary INT. Tiefling are also supposed to make good Rogues but get no DEX bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary CHA (just like Dopplegangers used to!). Drow are supposed to make good Clerics but get no STR or WIS bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary CHA. Deva are supposed to make good Paladins but get no STR or CHA bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary WIS. Gnome are supposed to make good Rogues but get no DEX bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary CHA (just like Dopplegangers used to!). Kalashtar are supposed to make good Psions but get no INT bonus and only a bonus to the secondary WIS. Warforged are supposed to make good Artificers but get no INT bonus and only get a bonus to the secondary CON.
Clearly, a race can still iconically have members of classes that they don't even have the primary ability score to support, so that logic isn't enough to justify the Changeling versatile ability score boost. That's okay, though, because the ability score boost system was designed to make it exactly so that you can still get away with this. You can still make a more than viable character even if your race doesn't give you a primary ability score boost.
EDIT:
And if anything, previous editions are irrelevant to the 4e Mul. The Half-Orc is the shining example of that. Why shouldn't the Mul be re-invented as well?
That's my point, though. What I'm saying is that the proposed mechanic doesn't fit with the previously used flavor of the race. If the argument is that maybe the race has new flavor, then that's fine, but that also raises many more questions, and it still doesn't change the point that the mechanic doesn't fit the known flavor.
It's just someone tweeting from a seminar, so it's entirely possible they've just misheard or misunderstood something. Maybe what was actually said was that the devs were initially undecided whether Muls should get Str or Wis and that they (the devs) had a choice to make between the two, rather than that the player of a Mul character would get a choice. I can see how someone feverishly tweeting what he's hearing (and therefore only having half his attention on what's actually being said) could make such a mistake.
That sounds quite probable, and right now, I think that this makes a lot more sense than Mul actually having +2 CON and +2 STR / +2 WIS.
Critical Hits is one of the more reliable reporters/commentators/whatever you wanna call him, according to what I've read. Over at RPG.net, they're saying that if he reported it as Con and Str/Wis, then it's Con and Str/Wis, not a misunderstanding.
I don't know which I believe, mind you, but I have no problems if it's true.
Honestly, I have no idea who or what "criticalhits" is, but ifwhat they report is true (and I remain skeptical), then we better get a damn good thematic reason for why Mul get to do this, because nothing that I know about Mul suggest that this is any better of an idea than giving Elves cold resistance or giving Dwarves racial bow proficiency or giving Halflings aberrant origin. Sure, you can do those things, but that doesn't mean that you should. They're balanced, but balance is not the only concern.
Ok it's been a few years since I've read anything on DS but I seem to remember Muls being very strong and tough. Willpower in my book would be another aspect of this, so I'd be ok with it.
I was at that same seminar that Dave was at. The "Muls are Constitution and Strength or Wisdom" is straight from Rich Baker's mouth. Rich also said that he clarified in print that the correct pronunciation of that word is "mull" rather than "mule" like the animal. Apparently, Troy Denning was the only person around the office who used the latter pronunciation.
I also heard (and this falls under the category of "rumor from a WotC employee that I can't substantiate further") that the Essentials line coming out later this year will introduce the ability for the tiefling to have some more flexibility in choosing ability modifiers. The purpose behind these choices is to have races work well with more classes. I know a lot of people wanted to make a tiefling infernal warlock for the thematics, but the stats just lined up better with some of the other pacts. Here, a mul will work with a variety of classes, from shaman and druid to fighter and barbarian. Believe me, they make for good barbarians...
I was at that same seminar that Dave was at. The "Muls are Constitution and Strength or Wisdom" is straight from Rich Baker's mouth. Rich also said that he clarified in print that the correct pronunciation of that word is "mull" rather than "mule" like the animal. Apparently, Troy Denning was the only person around the office who used the latter pronunciation.
I also heard (and this falls under the category of "rumor from a WotC employee that I can't substantiate further") that the Essentials line coming out later this year will introduce the ability for the tiefling to have some more flexibility in choosing ability modifiers. The purpose behind these choices is to have races work well with more classes. I know a lot of people wanted to make a tiefling infernal warlock for the thematics, but the stats just lined up better with some of the other pacts. Here, a mul will work with a variety of classes, from shaman and druid to fighter and barbarian. Believe me, they make for good barbarians...
I like this very much.
To me, I think if Changelings could pull it off well, then they could do this with any and every race to increase the number of optimal or advantaged options. Right now, there are many races that SHOULD be good at classes they're really not good at. Not to say that they are terrible at them (no race is terrible at any build, because we don't have negative modifiers), but the ability scores should support the race's tendencies for certain classes.
For example, if there was a Str/Int variant of the Eladrin, they'd be better as Swordmages, but more importantly, they'd have their Two-Blade Ranger they're supposed to favour but don't. Though I guess an Int/Cha Eladrin is equally desired for the sake of Bards and Illusionists.
Genasi are another good example. They are SCREAMING to be Chaos and Storm Sorcerers. Yet they insist on being Str/Int. While they make good Storm Wardens, they would do much better if they could at least have a Charisma modifier in there. Though, if they were Str/Int or Str/Cha, the Str/Cha would tell players to go with Dragon or Cosmic Spell Sources.
If this is true about the Essentials line, even more reason why the experienced player should NOT overlook these box sets and expansions.
Same-silo stat boosts have been addressed by giving +1 to a defense as compensation, but with some of the races that have appeared since then, the defense boost is to the same stat. This may be deliberate - thematically the Wis/Cha race should have a very strong Will but the mechanics don't allow it; the +1 Racial to Will corrects that. (There's no reason why a race can't have +2 to one defense rather than +1 to two defenses.)
The Mul Fort defense boost might be meant to cover it, but the idea struck me that it could be set up to only apply if the Mul goes Str/Con - thereby giving him +2 Fort, whereas the Con/Wis Mul would end up with +1 Fort/+1 Will.
I don't see it as being the end of the world even if that isn't the case. If he gets +1 AC/+2 Fort/+1 Will in total then he's mechanically as tough as his theme, and he's still only matching the human for defense at best, since the human has +1 Fort/+1 Ref/+1 Will/+1 more to one of those, and if the human chose Int or Dex then the human is still ahead with +1 AC/+1 Fort/+2 Ref/+1 Will.
... now I'm having a flashback to Clue and Tim Curry's "1 plus 1 plus 2 plus 1" scene.
Does somebody have another character sheet, or more information? I'm looking for anything I can find for Mul's right now. Especially a hint towards what type of bonus they get towards ending conditions.
Is there another Mul character sheet out there? The Mul barbarian has a 17 Fort (+5 from Strength, +2 from Barbarian), which leads to no bonus to fortitude.
Does somebody have another character sheet, or more information? I'm looking for anything I can find for Mul's right now. Especially a hint towards what type of bonus they get towards ending conditions.
No, but I made a stupid error.
The ending conditions came from the XP, not from an actual Character Sheet.
I also heard (and this falls under the category of "rumor from a WotC employee that I can't substantiate further") that the Essentials line coming out later this year will introduce the ability for the tiefling to have some more flexibility in choosing ability modifiers. The purpose behind these choices is to have races work well with more classes. I know a lot of people wanted to make a tiefling infernal warlock for the thematics, but the stats just lined up better with some of the other pacts. Here, a mul will work with a variety of classes, from shaman and druid to fighter and barbarian. Believe me, they make for good barbarians...
IF this is true and they're going to retroactively add ability score options to all of the other races who don't have flexibility or versatility as very important parts of their flavor either, THEN it's probably fine, because it'll become the norm instead of a misplaced exception.
I find this a very odd decision, because I don't feel that there's anything wrong with the current system. I think that the only problem with the current system is that a lot people feel like they need to have a race with specific ability score boosts to play certain classes even though they really don't. That being said, I'm never opposed to expanding options when it makes thematic and mechanical sense, so I probably wouldn't have any real problem with it.
However, I'm very hesitant to believe every little rumor that somebody heard from a friend of a friend, so until this is substantiated, I'm still going to work under the assumption that the Mul is getting a flavor re-write, because I want to believe that there's a good reason for this, and if it turns out that there isn't, then, well, it wouldn't be the first mistake that the developers have made, and it won't be the last...
In hindsight I feel that attack bonus should have been decoupled from the character's ability scores and either made generic or class-bonus based, or the system should have had a built-in way (a feat is most likely for various reasons) to gain a +1 to attack rolls involving a stat that the character's race does not grant a bonus to. (In fact that may be something I start using as a house-rule just to deal with this issue.)
Muls in the past may not have had reason to have a variable score, but now they do. It's not at all unreasonable that one aspect of their original concept was sacrificed to preserve another. From what others have mentioned about the previous incarnations of muls, I don't find it to be a stretch that the developers just felt it was easier to scrape less important fluff to preserve or even enhance something that would be more fun.
Personally, I'm one of those types that was mentioned to prefer things backwards. Mechanics first, fluff later. I would never build an elf, I'd build a series of mechanical templates and then assign the elf fluff to the most appropriate one. Actually, that's not true, I'd never make elves period...silly, pointy-eared, wannabe Vulcans. And don't even get me started on dwarves.
Regardless, I do prefer to have every spot filled before spawning legions of the same stupid races in different skins over and over again. Each race does play differently based on the traits it has, yes...but they never show how different they really are til they use their racial power or some racial feat. Until then, the differences are negligible. If they weren't, certain class-race combinations would again be flat-out stupid, just like in 3.5.
Just because I never thought about it before...
Int/Wis
Int/Cha
Int/Con
Int/Str
Int/Dex
Str/Wis
Str/Cha
Str/Con
Str/Dex
Dex/Wis
Dex/Cha
Dex/Con
Wis/Con
Wis/Cha
Cha/Con
So, 15 combinations before allowing things like Humans or Changelings...and I'm supposed to believe that somehow the fluff of various races couldn't have been altered to suit some of them...that certain races couldn't have been done differently to accomodate the more appropriate placement of other races...before they came out with more copies of any particular one than I care to waste my time on?
That said, the ability score adjustments are important, but they're not deal-breakers. But ultimately they're not something that is depicted directly during gameplay. It's all about the flashy powers. No one cares why you hit so hard, they care how cool it sounds. Well, anyone reasonable anyway. Mechanics in the design, fluff in the game...and fluff should always be adjusted to suit the mechanics, not the other way around. But, that's just me.
and fluff should always be adjusted to suit the mechanics, not the other way around. But, that's just me.
I could not disagree more, it should we the other way around.
I think it's a shame how much pen and paper players don't seem to care about thematics these days.
If I wanted to play a game focused on mechanics with some ignorable fluff thrown on top of it, I would play an MMORPG.
They were always fluffed as some of the strongest warriors, and there was a lot made about their connection to the elements in the novels, so choosing Str or Wis makes plenty of sense.
What part of that says WIS to you? "Connection to the elements" doesn't have very much to do with WIS. At best, it's +2 Nature and a jumping off point for racial features and/or racial feats, and not even necessarily all of that.
That said, Dwarves themselves also make some of the strongest warriors, despite not having a STR bonus, so STR isn't necessarily. Would anybody honestly make the argument that Dwarves aren't good Fighters just because they don't get a STR bonus?
I could see them having either STR/CON or CON/WIS, but none of what you explained suggested any sort of racial versatility that would justify CON//STR/WIS itself. "Many members of this race are also members of this class" just isn't enough to justify a specific ability score boost or set of ability score boosts.
I could not disagree more, it should we the other way around.
I think it's a shame how much pen and paper players don't seem to care about thematics these days.
If I wanted to play a game focused on mechanics with some ignorable fluff thrown on top of it, I would play an MMORPG.
+1
I could even understand an individual not caring much about fluff or wanting a particular mechanic so much that they don't care about the fluff attached to it, no matter how crappy, but to suggest that the system and the options within it should actually be built around the assumption that nobody really cares about fluff and everybody just wants cool mechanics? I could never agree with that.
They were always fluffed as some of the strongest warriors, and there was a lot made about their connection to the elements in the novels, so choosing Str or Wis makes plenty of sense.
What part of that says WIS to you? "Connection to the elements" doesn't have very much to do with WIS. At best, it's +2 Nature and a jumping off point for racial features and/or racial feats, and not even necessarily all of that.
That said, Dwarves themselves also make some of the strongest warriors, despite not having a STR bonus, so STR isn't necessarily. Would anybody honestly make the argument that Dwarves aren't good Fighters just because they don't get a STR bonus?
I could see them having either STR/CON or CON/WIS, but none of what you explained suggested any sort of racial versatility that would justify CON//STR/WIS itself. "Many members of this race are also members of this class" just isn't enough to justify a specific ability score boost or set of ability score boosts.
Well, the part about them being only slightly weaker than Half-Giants, aka Goliaths, and therefore being the second strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e says Str/Con. And the fact that Wis is important to Gladiators, and 95% of all non-free Muls were bred to be either heavy labor or gladiators, and the fact that in the novels there was a Mul baby that was said to have the potential to be the greatest elemntal cleric ever, and the fact that WotC has decided that elemental worship in Dark Sun = Primal, more specifically that Elemental Clerics = Shaman, and Druid = Druid, all supports a Wis boost.
So yes, the 2e fluff actually does support both versions, whether you want to see it or not. But that's not important frankly. There doesn't have to be a fluff reason for them to be Con & Str/Wis. I disagree with Lucifer there on mechanics first, fluff as an after thought. But that in no way means that the fluff has to 100% match the mechanics. If it did, Tieflings would have had Cha/Con from the start, Half-elves wouldn't have been Cha/Con (and I say that as a proponent of the hybrid vigor explanation), Eladrin would have been Cha/Int, Dwarves would have been Str/Con, etc. etc. etc.
At any rate, the Muls are not going to have some little bit in their entry saying, "this is why they have versatility." They're just going to have it. And frankly they don't have to justify it. As far as WotC is concerned, "Many members of this race are also members of this class" is in fact perfect justification for whatever stat boosts they feel like giving.
I could see them having either STR/CON or CON/WIS
So can the developers
. I could see thiefling, and eladrain getting extra stat options retroacticly. Goliaths might get one for being half-giants.Really i don't understand your problem with it.
Well, the part about them being only slightly weaker than Half-Giants, aka Goliaths, and therefore being the second strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e says Str/Con. And the fact that Wis is important to Gladiators, and 95% of all non-free Muls were bred to be either heavy labor or gladiators, and the fact that in the novels there was a Mul baby that was said to have the potential to be the greatest elemntal cleric ever, and the fact that WotC has decided that elemental worship in Dark Sun = Primal, more specifically that Elemental Clerics = Shaman, and Druid = Druid, all supports a Wis boost.
I agree with most of what you're saying here, CelticMutt, but I have to mention that Shamans aren't necessarily Elemental Clerics in Dark Sun. Elemental Cleric is a template that can be applied to Shamans as well as other classes. We don't know what the parameter is, though.
We –do– know that Templars can be –any– caster class, while Gladiators can be –any– weapon user class. Logic would state that Elemental Clerics have a larger paramter than just Shamans. Which is good. You might have a Druid as an Elemental Cleric; you might have Seeker; maybe even a Sorcerer.
I agree with most of what you're saying here, CelticMutt, but I have to mention that Shamans aren't necessarily Elemental Clerics in Dark Sun. Elemental Cleric is a template that can be applied to Shamans as well as other classes. We don't know what the parameter is, though.
We –do– know that Templars can be –any– caster class, while Gladiators can be –any– weapon user class. Logic would state that Elemental Clerics have a larger paramter than just Shamans. Which is good. You might have a Druid as an Elemental Cleric; you might have Seeker; maybe even a Sorcerer.
I like the sound of these *theme powers*, It could really be fun if they made more of them. I think theme powers would be way better for weak concepts like Runepriest as apposed to giving them their own class.
Things like Ninja, Swashbuckler, Hoplite, Samurai, Pirate and other archetypes like that should totally just be pools of powers that any class can take as long as they have the reqs
I agree with most of what you're saying here, CelticMutt, but I have to mention that Shamans aren't necessarily Elemental Clerics in Dark Sun. Elemental Cleric is a template that can be applied to Shamans as well as other classes. We don't know what the parameter is, though.
We –do– know that Templars can be –any– caster class, while Gladiators can be –any– weapon user class. Logic would state that Elemental Clerics have a larger paramter than just Shamans. Which is good. You might have a Druid as an Elemental Cleric; you might have Seeker; maybe even a Sorcerer.
I like the sound of these *theme powers*, It could really be fun if they made more of them. I think theme powers would be way better for weak concepts like Runepriest as apposed to giving them their own class.
Things like Ninja, Swashbuckler, Hoplite, Samurai, Pirate and other archetypes like that should totally just be pools of powers that any class can take as long as they have the reqs
Ah, so you've seen all the fluff for the Runepriest? Do tell us about it then.
Well, the part about them being only slightly weaker than Half-Giants, aka Goliaths, and therefore being the second strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e says Str/Con.
Again, that really depends on the contextual definition of "strength". Remember that Dwarves are very "strong" Fighters, and I don't think you'll find many people that will disagree with that. That said, I do agree that STR/CON is probably the more appropriate of the two.
And the fact that Wis is important to Gladiators, and 95% of all non-free Muls were bred to be either heavy labor or gladiators, and the fact that in the novels there was a Mul baby that was said to have the potential to be the greatest elemntal cleric ever, and the fact that WotC has decided that elemental worship in Dark Sun = Primal, more specifically that Elemental Clerics = Shaman, and Druid = Druid, all supports a Wis boost.
None of that supports a WIS boost.
"Many Mul are Gladiators, and WIS is important to Gladiators, so Mul should get WIS" is exactly as terrible reasoning as saying that "Many Dwarves are Fighters, and STR is important to Fighters, so Dwarves should get STR" when there's no flavor to back up Dwarves actually having any more physical muscle power than any other race or "Many Gnomes are Rogues, and DEX is important to Rogues, so Gnomes should get DEX" when there's no flavor to back up Gnomes actually being any more agile than any other race or "Many Tieflings are Infernal Warlocks, and CON is important to Infernal Warlocks, so Tieflings should get CON" when there's no flavor to back up Tieflings actually being any hardier than any other race or "Many Drow are Clerics, and WIS are important to Clerics, so Drow should get WIS" when there's no flavor to back up Drow actually being any wiser than any other race or whatever else.
Furthermore, a specific character being good at a class is even worse reasoning. That doesn't say anything about the race as a whole. All that it says is that this particular character put his 18 into WIS. You could say just as correctly say that a specific Half-Orc child has the potential to be the greatest Wizard of all time because the character has an 18 in INT. It might even be less than that depending on what you mean by "greatest".
What you're looking for here is probably racial feats that are specific to certain classes.
I disagree with Lucifer there on mechanics first, fluff as an after thought.
Then at least we agree on something. It may just be best that we leave it at that...
Really i don't understand your problem with it.
Then read the rest of the sentence that you only partially quoted out of context. I've said many times exactly what my problem with it is: There isn't sufficient fluff to justify this flexibility and versatility. Pick one.
We all know that Crimson feels there isn't enough fluff, while others agree and still others disagree. Since nobody is convincing anybody else otherwise, maybe we should move onto a different topic for either this thread or look at a different thread.
On the Mul I thinks it's fine. The choice between str and wis I kind of like. Thematically their very tough, so con makes sense. To me the choice represents choosing between external toughness(str) or internal strength(wis). I remember them being stubborn and full of resolve. Although been quite a while since I've delved into DS.
Well, the part about them being only slightly weaker than Half-Giants, aka Goliaths, and therefore being the second strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e says Str/Con.
Again, that really depends on the contextual definition of "strength". Remember that Dwarves are very "strong" Fighters, and I don't think you'll find many people that will disagree with that. That said, I do agree that STR/CON is probably the more appropriate of the two.
No, it doesn't depend on the contextual definition. It is extremely literal. The Mul was literally the 2nd physically strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e. Fluffwise, they are literally the second physically strongest race in Athas that's not a hideous monster out to eat you. Because just like the Half-Giants, they are bred to be physically stronger than everything else.
And the fact that Wis is important to Gladiators, and 95% of all non-free Muls were bred to be either heavy labor or gladiators, and the fact that in the novels there was a Mul baby that was said to have the potential to be the greatest elemntal cleric ever, and the fact that WotC has decided that elemental worship in Dark Sun = Primal, more specifically that Elemental Clerics = Shaman, and Druid = Druid, all supports a Wis boost.
None of that supports a WIS boost.
Obviously WotC disagrees with you.
Well, the part about them being only slightly weaker than Half-Giants, aka Goliaths, and therefore being the second strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e says Str/Con.
Again, that really depends on the contextual definition of "strength". Remember that Dwarves are very "strong" Fighters, and I don't think you'll find many people that will disagree with that. That said, I do agree that STR/CON is probably the more appropriate of the two.
No, it doesn't depend on the contextual definition. It is extremely literal. The Mul was literally the 2nd physically strongest PC race in Dark Sun 2e. Fluffwise, they are literally the second physically strongest race in Athas that's not a hideous monster out to eat you. Because just like the Half-Giants, they are bred to be physically stronger than everything else.And the fact that Wis is important to Gladiators, and 95% of all non-free Muls were bred to be either heavy labor or gladiators, and the fact that in the novels there was a Mul baby that was said to have the potential to be the greatest elemntal cleric ever, and the fact that WotC has decided that elemental worship in Dark Sun = Primal, more specifically that Elemental Clerics = Shaman, and Druid = Druid, all supports a Wis boost.
None of that supports a WIS boost.
Obviously WotC disagrees with you.
Okay, we understand your opinion on the matter, CelticMutt. However, this is not the place for this argument, and it's getting a bit heated. It would be better to lay it to rest, or move to the actual topic on Dark Sun spoilers.
Okay, we understand your opinion on the matter, CelticMutt. However, this is not the place for this argument, and it's getting a bit heated. It would be better to lay it to rest, or move to the actual topic on Dark Sun spoilers.
But he's just so obviously wrong, and it's just so easy to explain way, and it's just so tempting to get the last word in! T___T
Also, moving a discussion usually just interrupts whatever discussion is currently going on in whatever other thread and confuses those that haven't read whatever thread the discussion came from. I would, however, be glad to tell CelticMutt exactly why he's wrong if he would like me to PM him. If he acts now, I'll even throw in some excel spreadsheets! ^_^
Also, this is a thread for the upcoming PH3 classes and races, not for Dark Sun, so, since we've reached an impasse in the discussion maybe it's time to bring it back to Shardmind, Runepriest, Battlemind, and whatnot.
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it
) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.Runepriest: I'll have to actually see it to figure out how I feel. As it stands now though, my gut reaction is "meh" - more "meh," even, than the Avenger, Invoker and Warden. But again, I'll have to see more (a lot more) on it to really get beyond that initial gut reaction.
Battlemind: Totally undecided. I'll have to see more. I'm hoping that it appeals to me more than the Warden, but... *shrugs*. I don't see it being something I like as much this edition as I liked the Psychic Warrior last edition (but that's mostly because the Fighter is, this time, so spectacularly awesome).
Whatnot: So the classes are... Ardent, Battlemind, Monk, Psion, Runepriest, and Seeker? And the races are Gith, Shardmind, Minotaur, and... something else? Plus Hybrid rules. It's... Hm. PH3 is shaping up to be one of those books I buy - but I won't be entirely happy about it. Of the content we've seen so far, I'm looking forward to... Monk (which surprises me a bit; like the Bard in PH2, it's a class I really didn't care for before, but love this time around) and Psion. Shardmind (kind of). And Hybrid rules.
Gah. That... doesn't seem like a lot of content when I actually commit it to text. For the PH2, I was looking forward to the Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and Shaman. Then Half-Orc and Gnome. And backgrounds.
No, i'm not so obviously wrong, seeing as I'm agreeing with WotC.
You should know by now that appeal to authority doesn't work on me. ^_~
WotC does not agree with you Crimson. They have shown it time and again.
Do you mean when they didn't give Tieflings a CON bonus? Or do you mean when they didn't give Drow a WIS bonus? Or maybe it was when they didn't give Gnomes a DEX bonus? Or could it have been when they didn't give Dwarves a STR bonus? When they didn't give Kalashtar an INT bonus? When they didn't give Deva a CHA bonus? When they didn't give Half-Orc a CON bonus? Because all of that sounds an awful lot like they agree with me and that the Mul are out of place for being contrary to what WotC has done in the past.
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Maybe they're made of Talc? ^_^
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Maybe they're made of Talc? ^_^
Or just something more akin to glass. But still, I'd have prefered it to be +Con/+Whatever.
No, i'm not so obviously wrong, seeing as I'm agreeing with WotC.
You should know by now that appeal to authority doesn't work on me. ^_~
I'm stating facts, not appealing to anything.
WotC does not agree with you Crimson. They have shown it time and again.
Do you mean when they didn't give Tieflings a CON bonus? Or do you mean when they didn't give Drow a WIS bonus? Or maybe it was when they didn't give Gnomes a DEX bonus? Or could it have been when they didn't give Dwarves a STR bonus? When they didn't give Kalashtar an INT bonus? When they didn't give Deva a CHA bonus? When they didn't give Half-Orc a CON bonus? Because all of that sounds an awful lot like they agree with me and that the Mul are out of place for being contrary to what WotC has done in the past.
*skims* numerous and sundry rants on the Minotaur, Gnoll, Small size, etc.* Yeah .... you keep believing that.
Of course, you're also ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no fluff reason to give a Kalashtar an Int bonus, no fluff reason to give the Deva a Cha bonus (Deva have actually been refluffed, Muls have not), and the fluff fully and completely supports the Half-Orc Dex bonus, and not a Con bonus.
Drow having a Cha bonus instead of Wis makes perect sense. Gnomes having Cha/Int makes perfect sense. Tieflings being Cha/Con would have been better, but Cha/Int still makes perfect sense. Leaving out one bonus when 3 make sense for them is not a violation of fluff.
Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to prove here. All of those races have stat boosts that make perfect sense fluff wise. So do the Muls. You may not like it. But no matter how much you try to argue otherwise, you're wrong. The 2e Mul fluff does for a fact support both Str and Wis alongside Con.
Of course, you're also ignoring the fact that there is absolutely no fluff reason to give a Kalashtar an Int bonus, no fluff reason to give the Deva a Cha bonus (Deva have actually been refluffed, Muls have not), and the fluff fully and completely supports the Half-Orc Dex bonus, and not a Con bonus.
Drow having a Cha bonus instead of Wis makes perect sense. Gnomes having Cha/Int makes perfect sense. Tieflings being Cha/Con would have been better, but Cha/Int still makes perfect sense. Leaving out one bonus when 3 make sense for them is not a violation of fluff.
Honestly, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to prove here. All of those races have stat boosts that make perfect sense fluff wise.
That's exactly what I'm saying. These races have the ability score boosts that fit best with their racial fluff despite the fact that the fluff also includes them being members of classes for which their most logical ability score bonuses would not be optimal.
So do the Muls.
But your whole logic for them getting a WIS bonus is tied to "they're supposed to be good as X classes" when, as shown above and as you have just agreed with, that doesn't matter if there's no fluff reason to give them the bonus to begin with.
Okay, we understand your opinion on the matter, CelticMutt. However, this is not the place for this argument, and it's getting a bit heated. It would be better to lay it to rest, or move to the actual topic on Dark Sun spoilers.
I applaud your valiant efforts, Marandahir, but it appears that this thread is officially
Shardmind: I'm somewhat disappointed that it is a "crystaline" race without a +Con (we think?). Just a personal thing, but given that all of the races associated with mountains or stone or rock (dwarves, goliaths, warforged - though the last only because they're made out of it ) get a Con boost, it feels strange that the race made out of a rock doesn't get that boost. Not a deal-breaker, by any means - just... strange to me.
Maybe they're made of Talc? ^_^
Wow. Another reason for my setting's name for them – Talchion. Because Talch means fragment in Welsh, and that's the closest thing to Shard I could find.
That's exactly what I'm saying. These races have the ability score boosts that fit best with their racial fluff despite the fact that the fluff also includes them being members of classes for which their most logical ability score bonuses would not necessarily be optimal.
But your whole logic for them getting a WIS bonus is tied to "they're supposed to be good as X classes" when, as shown above and as you have just agreed with, that doesn't matter.
Err ... no. Just ... no. I did not say, and I am still not saying that being good at particular classes should not be a consideration in their stats. I disagree with that notion completely. In fact, the only races on that list that does not actually have stats fitting their fluff favored classes are the Tiefling, and WotC has acknowledged that that is a problem they want to fix, and the Drow with Clerics. And since the fluff favored Drow cleric follows Lolth, a god players are discouraged from following, it's not an issue.
I fully support the idea that if your fluff says you favor a class, you should have the stat boosts for it. And the majority of PC races follow that pattern. So yes, everything I have said is in fact in support of Mul's getting bonuses for classse they're fluffed to favor. And if you want another reason, here:
Con: Muls are born to physical hardship, and have a racial endurance that exceeds nearly every other race in existence, bred to be tireless slaves that can go for days without rest, and can go longer than any other race besides a Thri-kreen without food or water
Str: Muls are bred to be one of the physically strongest races in existence, to be gladiators and (no class here ma!) slave labor
Wis: Mul have an inborn straight from 2e fluff stubborness and dogged determination that makes dwarves weep in envy
Yeah, I should have said that last one earlier. I forgot. So sue me. Point being, 2e fluff, which 4e fluff is going to follow, fully and completely supports all three stats, both alongside and independent of class favoritism.
I fully support the idea that if your fluff says you favor a class, you should have the stat boosts for it. And the majority of PC races follow that pattern. So yes, everything I have said is in fact in support of Mul's getting bonuses for classse they're fluffed to favor. And if you want another reason, here:
But if your race favors more classes than you have ability bonuses, this can be solved through feats.
"Dwarves like being fighters" isn't solved by giving them a strength bonus, it is solved through Dwarven Weapon Training, their feats to improve toughness, and various abilities that make them harder than nails defenders.
"Tieflings like hell pacts" isn't solved by a con bonus, it is solved by Hellfire and various other feats that expand their scope and given them an edge in the hellock department.
"Eladrin like swords that go swish" doesn't mean a bonus to ranger and fighter stats, it means feats that improve the use of heavy blades, longsword especially.
There's more than just attributes.
Wisdom has nothing to do with stubbornness. In fact, most of the time wisdom is the exact opposite of stubbornness. The dorfish "I'm gonna do what I want and to hell with what everyone else thinks" would be more tied to force of personality, read Charisma.
What? Yes, force of personality is tied to Charisma. But "I'm going to do what I want and nothing is going to stop me" has nothing to do with force of personality. You can be a complete wallflower that will still complete your job due to sheer determination. And straight from the PHB1, Wisdom measures self-discipline, which is related to determination.
But if your race favors more classes than you have ability bonuses, this can be solved through feats.
"Dwarves like being fighters" isn't solved by giving them a strength bonus, it is solved through Dwarven Weapon Training, their feats to improve toughness, and various abilities that make them harder than nails defenders.
"Tieflings like hell pacts" isn't solved by a con bonus, it is solved by Hellfire and various other feats that expand their scope and given them an edge in the hellock department.
"Eladrin like swords that go swish" doesn't mean a bonus to ranger and fighter stats, it means feats that improve the use of heavy blades, longsword especially.
There's more than just attributes.
You are absolutely for the most part, but you're a little off base on the Eladrin and Dwarf. The Dwarf stat bonuses and racial traits make them perfect Fighters, even before you consider feats. And Eladrin have a bonus to Dex which is needed for most sword feats, though they're not as adept without feats as Dwarves are.
And I disagree on the Tieflings. None of the current Teifling Infernal Pact feats come even close to the level of the Dwarf Fighter feats and Eladrin Fighter/Ranger/Warlord feats. The Teiflings are still better off gonig with a Charisma Pact instead every time, if you want to be optimal, because all the best Tiefling Warlock feats don't apply to any specific pact.
Be that as it may, that is PHB1, and a year and a half ago (or more in desgin time). WotC has changed it's design plans since then, and the Mul (and likely the Changeling) is clearly the result of this change.
Anyways, my point has never been that they should get Con & Str/Wis. My point the entire time has been that the fluff supports it. They could only have one of those pairings and it wouldn't bother me at all. Just like the Dwarves and Eladrin being the way they are doesn't bother me at all, and in somes ways I think it even improves them.
I mean, look at the Eladrin compared to the Changeling. The Eladrin make up for a relatievly poor stat pair with awesome feats. The Changeling on the other hand gets flexibility with stat choice, but has been shafted at every possible chance when it comes to feats. Even the few racial feats (like all of five or six now) that they have are all pretty lousy, with like only one or two being good, and then only in specific circumstances. So if the Mul had only one stat pair, but had good feats to support it, I'd be perfectly fine with that.
But saying that their fluff doesn't support the two different pairs? That is completely and factually wrong.
Err ... no. Just ... no. I did not say, and I am still not saying that being good at particular classes should not be a consideration in their stats. I disagree with that notion completely.
But that stance doesn't fit with your last post. You say that there is no fluff reason to give Kalashtar an INT bonus despite the fact that their fluff calls them out as Psions. You say there's no fluff reason to give the Deva a CHA bonus when their fluff conceptually places them as Paladins. You say that the fluff fully supports DEX over CON for the Half-Orc even though their fluff places them as Barbarians (no DEX build at the time). You say it makes perfect sense for Drow not to have a WIS bonus even though Clerics of Lolth are a major part of their fluff. You say that it makes perfect sense not to give Gnomes a DEX bonus even though their fluff suggests quite a lot of Rogue themes. And I agree with you.
In fact, the only races on that list that does not actually have stats fitting their fluff favored classes are the Tiefling...
And Kalashtar and Drow and Dwarf and Gnome and so on...
Wis: Mul have an inborn straight from 2e fluff stubborness and dogged determination that makes dwarves weep in envy
Yeah, I should have said that last one earlier.
Yeah, you should have, and I might have bought it too, but at this point it just looks like you're making up new stuff because you realize that your other argument doesn't work. Besides, Eisenritter is correct in that CHA is what you're looking for there, not WIS, and Dragoncat goes on to point out great examples of exactly why you don't need a primary ability score boost to be a great member of a class.
EDIT:
But saying that their fluff doesn't support the two different pairs? That is completely and factually wrong.
I don't think that anybody is saying that. I know I'm not. I'm saying that their fluff doesn't support the option and versatility to choose between the two different pairs.
But that stance doesn't fit with your last post. You say that there is no fluff reason to give Kalashtar an INT bonus despite the fact that their fluff calls them out as Psions. You say there's no fluff reason to give the Deva a CHA bonus when their fluff conceptually places them as Paladins. You say that the fluff fully supports DEX over CON for the Half-Orc even though their fluff places them as Barbarians (no DEX build at the time). You say it makes perfect sense for Drow not to have a WIS bonus even though Clerics of Lolth are a major part of their fluff. You say that it makes perfect sense not to give Gnomes a DEX bonus even though their fluff suggests quite a lot of Rogue themes. And I agree with you.
Kalashtar don't need an Int bonus, because they have natural telepathy, and boosts to both of the Psion's secondaries, just like with the Dwarf. Deva are not fluffed as Paladins. They are fluffed as holy warriors, but holy warriors si no longer restricted to Paladins. Half-Orc's fluff also paints them as great Rangers, thugs, warriors, and as far back as IE, Assassins. The Dex boost makes just as much sense, if not more so than Con. Drow could use a Wis boost, but it's not necessary. And 4e Gnome fluff is more relevant to illusionists and bards than rogues. And even if you wanted a Gnome rogue, their feats and Charisma boost make up for it.
And Kalashtar and Drow and Dwarf and Gnome and so on...
No.
Yeah, you should have, and I might have bought it too, but at this point it just looks like you're making up new stuff because you realize that your other argument doesn't work.
Nice. Insult me because I forgot something earlier. Just shows how pathetic this argument has become. But you know what? I don't care if you think I'm lying, since even ba bare minimum of research would prove me right.
www.darksunwiki.com/darksun/index.php/Mu...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mul_%28fantasy_rac...
www.athas.org/products/ds3 - Was the unofficial 3e version, given permission from WotC themselves and based off the actual 2e material
And from the Revised 2e setting itself: "As muls tend to be independent and hard to control, the sorcerer-kings quickly abandoned the idea of forming large armies of them. Instead, other uses were found for this
hardy race."
Every single one of those mention stubbornness, independence, or determined wills. Oops, guess I wasn't lying.
Besides, Eisenritter is correct in that CHA is what you're looking for there, not WIS, and Dragoncat goes on to point out great examples of exactly why you don't need a primary ability score boost to be a great member of a class.
Wrong again. Charisma is not the answer. In fact, Muls are flat out noted as being terribly uncharismatic. On the other hand, as I said in my last post the PHB1 itself says that Wisdom relates to self-discipline, which in turn relates to all those other lovely Mul (and Dwarf) quirks. And Dragoncat is absolutely right. Muls don't need both pairs. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have them either.
I don't think that anybody is saying that. I know I'm not. I'm saying that their fluff doesn't support the option and versatility to choose between the two different pairs.
Which is wrong, since their fluff in fact does support it.
Doesn't the Mul shown in the DS character sheets out so far has a +1 bonus to Fort or something? Maybe it's +Str/Con and Will bonus or +Str/Wis and Fort bonus?
Then the solution is simpler than you realize. If it's not Charisma, and Muls are, in fact, +Str/+Con, then the answer is a racial Will bonus. Simple, easy, no complications to deal with, and the both of you can stop griping.
Doesn't the Mul shown in the DS character sheets out so far has a +1 bonus to Fort or something? Maybe it's +Str/Con and Will bonus or +Str/Wis and Fort bonus?
Yes, that would be simpler.
However, WotC has already officially said by way of Keith Baker himself (one of the developers for Dark Sun) that they are Con +Wis or Str, you choose. So honestly, whether it's justified or not doesn't matter at all. It's already happened, and there's no changing it. docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AY_-lC9BZosWZ...
So really there is no need for me to continue arguing. I just have this unfortunate urge to correct wrong information.
And no, Ian, there is no extra; it has a 20 Str and +2 from barbarian, that's it.
Kalashtar don't need an Int bonus, because they have natural telepathy, and boosts to both of the Psion's secondaries... Drow could use a Wis boost, but it's not necessary. And 4e Gnome fluff is more relevant to illusionists and bards than rogues. And even if you wanted a Gnome rogue, their feats and Charisma boost make up for it.
And these, along with the Tiefling, should be more than enough to prove my point. Just because the fluff of a race suggests that it favors a particular class doesn't mean that its ability scores need to match up with that class perfectly if there are other ways to make the race mechanically fit the class that would be just as if not more thematically appropriate. Thus, favoring a specific class does not anecessarily suggest that a specific ability score boost associated with that class automatically fits the fluff of the race.
Nice. Insult me because I forgot something earlier.
I didn't insult you, and I don't think you're lying, but the fact that this little piece was such an afterthought suggests that it isn't even a very important part of the race's flavor anyways, and certainly nothing that needs to be dealt with via an ability score boost. As Eisenritter suggested, a simple +1 Will would be more than enough.
Which is wrong, since their fluff in fact does support it.
You haven't shown that, though. You've shown why STR/CON would work and you've shown why STR/WIS would work, but I never denied either of those to begin with. What I've denied is that the choice, that the options, that the versatility, that the flexibility is out of place.
Then the solution is simpler than you realize. If it's not Charisma, and Muls are, in fact, +Str/+Con, then the answer is a racial Will bonus. Simple, easy, no complications to deal with, and the both of you can stop griping.
And that would have been a totally perfect solution. Unfortunately, it's apparently not what happened.
So honestly, whether it's justified or not doesn't matter at all. It's already happened, and there's no changing it.
Just because it already happened and it can't be changed doesn't mean that whether or not the decision was properly justified shouldn't still be questioned.
I just have this unfortunate urge to correct wrong information.
I have the same problem, especially when the wrong information in question is completely hypocritical.
EDIT:
Steel cage match Crimson vs. mutt
HAHAHA!
Well, I do have a wrestling singlet that I look sexy as hell in that I've been dying to have an excuse to use in a context that doesn't involve my boyfriend... That might have been too much information...
EDIT:Steel cage match Crimson vs. mutt
HAHAHA!
Well, I do have a wrestling singlet that I look sexy as hell in that I've been dying to have an excuse to use in a context that doesn't involve my boyfriend... That might have been too much information...
Or, it was just enough! I officially switch my lack of support for either party, to support for Crimson! Gaming homosexuals, UNITE! Hahahahaha
Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewok? That does not make sense!
But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this thread? Nothing.
Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this thread! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm D&D fan, trying to bring an argument to rest on an online forum, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Am I on the Star Wars RPG forum? NO! Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!
And so you have to remember, when you're in that internet forum deliberatin' and conjugatin' whether Muls should have +2 Str/Wis, +2 Con or whether you should be talking about this on a different thread and trying to be more civil, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must quit!
The defense rests.
Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed forum, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca.
Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewok? That does not make sense!
But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this thread? Nothing.
Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this thread! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm D&D fan, trying to bring an argument to rest on an online forum, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Am I on the Star Wars RPG forum? NO! Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!
And so you have to remember, when you're in that internet forum deliberatin' and conjugatin' whether Muls should have +2 Str/Wis, +2 Con or whether you should be talking about this on a different thread and trying to be more civil, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must quit!
The defense rests.
ROFL
Made of win.
< /thread >
Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Ummm, since when does Chewbacca live on Endor? It's been a while since I've read any EU, but I don't recall him ever living there.
Time for a new argument! We must determine the validity of Marandahir's claim!
What? Getting off topic in a new direction certainly couldn't hurt matters!
Besides, Chewbacca is stronger than a Mul. Therefore, the Mul's stats don't matter.
I just have this unfortunate urge to correct wrong information.
I have the same problem, especially when the wrong information in question is completely hypocritical.
Yeah ... the problem is, I'm not hypocritical. I'm right. I'm factually right. And I have proven it, with evidence. It's not my fault that you can't accept that Muls have every justification for being able to choose. And no, it is not hypocritical to accept the Dwarves and Kalashtar with their slightly off stats, and the Mul's with their flexibility. Both are viable methods, and I never once said they weren't. What I think your issue here is that you're trying to make it an either or - there is no reason why it can't be both for justification. There are no rules saying that you have to have either perfect stat synergy, or decent synergy and feat support, no rules saying you can't have both, and you can't have the option to choose.
I'll give you one minor concession - the Tieflings and Kalashtar and Dwarves probably all should have had the option to choose as well. But when WotC designed them, they didn't realize they were making a mistkae. They have fixed that with newer races. They may go back and fix it with older races.
Point being, the Mul's absoluetly deserve their versatility. Most races proably deserve it. And with any luck, they eventually will get it. And there is not further justification needed. Or need I remind you, again since you decided to gloss over it earlier, your lovely little rants about Small size, Minotaurs, and Gnolls? As I believe you yourself have put it at lest once, just because WotC made mistakes in the past, doesn't mean they should keep making them - in this case regarding abilitiy score flexibility.
And with that, I am done. You're not going to accept reason, and there's no point in wasting my time on this further.
As long as someone believes that the only thing that having a stat choice can represent is versatility of individuals within the race - and not, for example "these guys are, in general strong and mentally and physically resiliant" - then yeah, giving Muls a choice makes no sense.
Let's talk instead about Shardmind.
What do people think about the racial power? Like or Dislike?
Personally, I feel the entirety of Shardmind feels to me like a Gundam piloted by a NewType, which is really cool, in my opinion.
Lesp, both CelticMutt and Crimson_Concerto have stopped arguing. It's not a good idea to rustle back up the hornet's nest.
Let's talk instead about Shardmind.
What do people think about the racial power? Like or Dislike?
Personally, I feel the entirety of Shardmind feels to me like a Gundam piloted by a NewType, which is really cool, in my opinion.
I actually wonder if Shardswarm is like Bits/Fangs or more like the Turn X's 'bit limbs' which would explain the teleport at the end. Regardless the race does open up some interesting character types.
I already have someone in my group who wanted to play a Shardmind psion since waaaay back when the picture was first leaked. Now, I think I want to play one too, just not sure what class.
Lesp, both CelticMutt and Crimson_Concerto have stopped arguing. It's not a good idea to rustle back up the hornet's nest.
Let's talk instead about Shardmind.
What do people think about the racial power? Like or Dislike?
Personally, I feel the entirety of Shardmind feels to me like a Gundam piloted by a NewType, which is really cool, in my opinion.
I actually wonder if Shardswarm is like Bits/Fangs or more like the Turn X's 'bit limbs' which would explain the teleport at the end. Regardless the race does open up some interesting character types.
I already have someone in my group who wanted to play a Shardmind psion since waaaay back when the picture was first leaked. Now, I think I want to play one too, just not sure what class.
I think Telekinetic Psion fits them just perfectly. Force energy blasts? I can see this as G-bits coming off and being remote controlled by the Shardmind. I like this idea.
Also, this is a thread for the upcoming PH3 classes and races, not for Dark Sun, so, since we've reached an impasse in the discussion maybe it's time to bring it back to Shardmind, Runepriest, Battlemind, and whatnot.
To me, the runepriest sounds really interesting. But, I'd like to see more of other people's opinions on it. Here's what I think:
1. I'm glad there's finally another class with scale proficiency.
2. The rune system seems like it would be fun to use.
3. The "Wrathful Hammer" feature gives you a bonus (CON mod) to damage rolls against an enemy that hits you. This reminds me of a retribution avenger, and it seems like an interesting way to encourage enemies not to attack you.
4. The healing power doesn't heal as much as other leaders', but it does have a buff attached that affects you and all allies in the burst.
EDIT: @warfiend: The following is the Shardmind encounter power, copied from the .zip with the PHB3 info at the beginning of the thread:
Shard Swarm, Shardmind Racial Encounter Power
Encounter ✦ Teleportation
Move Action, Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Effect: The target grants you combat advantage until the end of your next turn. You then teleport 3 squares.
As fun as it sounds, I'm having trouble visualizing the power. I'm trying to decide whether the shardmind "explodes" and the reforms somewhere closeby out of the fragments from the explosion, or if the shardmind teleports in a puff of smoke or with a small shockwave that disorients foes.
C_C, while you often make good points, you do seem to present yourself as the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) (tm) - this tends to rub people the wrong way.
I should find a way to twist this quote around a bit so that it sounds like a good thing and then sig it. ^_^
As for the Shardmind racial power, I have to say that I'm not a very big fan. In general, I tend to prefer racial powers that aren't overtly supernatural, and when they are overtly supernatural, I prefer that they be something simple, or else the reasoning and application of the power sort of throws me off. Another good example of this sort of thing is the Gnome's Fade Away (if I can turn invisible then... why exactly can't I just do it whenever I want?). However, this isn't bothersome enough for me to make a fuss about, so I won't, and if the rest of the Shardmind is good, then the racial power probably wouldn't stop me from playing one.
As for the Shardmind racial power, I have to say that I'm not a very big fan. In general, I tend to prefer racial powers that aren't overtly supernatural, and when they are overtly supernatural, I prefer that they be something simple, or else the reasoning and application of the power sort of throws me off. Another good example of this sort of thing is the Gnome's Fade Away (if I can turn invisible then... why exactly can't I just do it whenever I want?). However, this isn't bothersome enough for me to make a fuss about, so I won't, and if the rest of the Shardmind is good, then the racial power probably wouldn't stop me from playing one.
As far as reasoning for the power goes, how about this: if the shardmind does that teleport thing too often, there is a chance that something will go terribly wrong. The shardmind can only safely teleport in that way about once per battle. If it teleported in that way too often, it could stress itself too much and somehow lose an arm, or die, or something.
Let's talk instead about Shardmind.
What do people think about the racial power? Like or Dislike?
Personally, I feel the entirety of Shardmind feels to me like a Gundam piloted by a NewType, which is really cool, in my opinion.
As fun as it sounds, I'm having trouble visualizing the power. I'm trying to decide whether the shardmind "explodes" and the reforms somewhere closeby out of the fragments from the explosion, or if the shardmind teleports in a puff of smoke or with a small shockwave that disorients foes.
I feel their power will be cool if, and only if, they explode completely and then reform afterwords. If it's just them shooting crystal shards out like a porcupine, then meh. We already have hell-dwarves for that.
Races:
• Githzerai: Dex/Wis
• Minotaur: Str/Con
• Shardmind: Int/Wis (possible change of multiple ability scores, and possible chance within that of Int/Con, but for all intents and purposes, Int/Wis)
• Wilden: Con/Wis
Looks like a Primal Themed set of Races, methinks. All have Wis, save the Minotaur, which makes an optimal Warden or Barbarian.
Classes:
• Ardent: Cha/Con or Cha/Wis
• Battlemind: Con/Wis and Con/Cha
• Monk: Dex/Wis or Dex/Str
• Psion: Int/Wis or Int/Cha
• Runepriest: Str/Con or Str/Wis (Str/Wis is still conjectural…)
• Seeker: Wis/Str or Wis/Dex
Plus Skill Powers, Feats, PPaths, EDests, Backgrounds and…
Hybrid Classes:
• Every class save Assassin
• Suggested combinations
• Lots of hand-holding to prevent bad combinations
• Warning that it's your own fault if you make a bad one
• Suggestion for DMs to take it easy on a bad-combo character (give them a free reworking)
Looks like a Primal/Divine Themed set of Races, methinks. All have Wis, save the Minotaur, which makes an optimal Warden, Barbarian or Runepriest.
Fixed! =D
As far as reasoning for the power goes, how about this: if the shardmind does that teleport thing too often, there is a chance that something will go terribly wrong. The shardmind can only safely teleport in that way about once per battle. If it teleported in that way too often, it could stress itself too much and somehow lose an arm, or die, or something.
That's not what I mean. I'm fine with things being encounter powers. What I mean is, like, if a Gnome can turn invisible as an immediate reaction, why couldn't it just turn invisible as a standard action if it wanted to? I mean, it clearly has the ability to turn invisible, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason for the restriction on when. I know that it can be justified, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch compared to something more simple.
After thinking about it, though, the Shardmind power may not as be a complex as I thought that it was. I really depends on the flavor, and with the possibilities that some are throwing out, it probably won't be a problem after all.
I like the shardmind power as explode and re-form.
I like the idea of the Shardmind exploding and separating into many parts before reforming.
As much as I like that idea, it sort of causes some problems when you consider that the exploded shards may not be able to get to the square you want to teleport into. After all, teleporting only requires line of sight, not line of effect. Hmm...
As far as reasoning for the power goes, how about this: if the shardmind does that teleport thing too often, there is a chance that something will go terribly wrong. The shardmind can only safely teleport in that way about once per battle. If it teleported in that way too often, it could stress itself too much and somehow lose an arm, or die, or something.
That's not what I mean. I'm fine with things being encounter powers. What I mean is, like, if a Gnome can turn invisible as an immediate reaction, why couldn't it just turn invisible as a standard action if it wanted to? I mean, it clearly has the ability to turn invisible, but there doesn't seem to be any good reason for the restriction on when. I know that it can be justified, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch compared to something more simple.
After thinking about it, though, the Shardmind power may not as be a complex as I thought that it was. I really depends on the flavor, and with the possibilities that some are throwing out, it probably won't be a problem after all.I like the shardmind power as explode and re-form.I like the idea of the Shardmind exploding and separating into many parts before reforming.
As much as I like that idea, it sort of causes some problems when you consider that the exploded shards may not be able to get to the square you want to teleport into. After all, teleporting only requires line of sight, not line of effect. Hmm...
Well, it is a move action, not an immediate reaction or interrupt. So technically, they CAN do it whenever they want. With the gnomes, it's more of a defense mechanism. Sure, a cuttlefish could shoot out ink whenever it wanted, but there isn't a point to it.
I actually imagine the power as the shardmind fragmenting and forming a hurricane like crystal swarm before recombining where they want.
With the gnomes, it's more of a defense mechanism. Sure, a cuttlefish could shoot out ink whenever it wanted, but there isn't a point to it.
I disagree. There's quite a lot of point to being invisible before something stabs you to begin with. But this doesn't relate to the Shardmind as much as I initially thought that it did, so I won't press the matter any further...
With the gnomes, it's more of a defense mechanism. Sure, a cuttlefish could shoot out ink whenever it wanted, but there isn't a point to it.
I disagree. There's quite a lot of point to being invisible before something stabs you to begin with. But this doesn't relate to the Shardmind as much as I initially thought that it did, so I won't press the matter any further...
Well, for that, gnomes can get other powers, sometimes from classes and such. Or stealth checks! This is kinda a OHSHITOHSHITOHSHITOHSHITHIDE! IF you ask me.
But yes, we can drop it! No need to make ANOTHER off topic thing.
Do we have any new info on Runepriest? I really want to know as much as I can on these guys, I don't usually like divine characters (I have all of one, a paladin that only really works in Eberron) and want to know if I'll have something to use in this source. It sounds really interesting. THinking a warforged runepreist may be up my alley in the future.
The remaining ardent build also excites me.
The remaining ardent build also excites me.
After the Battlemind Compendium and CB debut, I'm SO excited about the Battlemind. The powers are amazingly flufftastic in their creation of this "Nightmare-Weaver" class: A character that locks down enemies by giving them Penalty games – nightmares, fear effects, illusions, mind crushes, etc.
Think Yami Yugi, or Ban Midou, or Gwydion ap Dôn (from the Mabinogion, not Prydain Chronicles). It's awesome on the fluff side.
A lot of people dislike the mechanics. I want to play it first and then see if I like the play, but I REALLY like the fluff.
The remaining ardent build also excites me.
After the Battlemind Compendium and CB debut, I'm SO excited about the Battlemind. The powers are amazingly flufftastic in their creation of this "Nightmare-Weaver" class: A character that locks down enemies by giving them Penalty games – nightmares, fear effects, illusions, mind crushes, etc.
Think Yami Yugi, or Ban Midou, or Gwydion ap Dôn (from the Mabinogion, not Prydain Chronicles). It's awesome on the fluff side.
A lot of people dislike the mechanics. I want to play it first and then see if I like the play, but I REALLY like the fluff.
Don't get me wrong i love the idea, is a combination of one of my favorite sources with one of my favorite roles (not usually a grid filler but it happens). And the fluff is cool, you're right I love the myraid of effects they can pull of. I will play it, and I hope it will be fun to play. In the end the only thing that matters is if it is fun.
The remaining ardent build also excites me.
After the Battlemind Compendium and CB debut, I'm SO excited about the Battlemind. The powers are amazingly flufftastic in their creation of this "Nightmare-Weaver" class: A character that locks down enemies by giving them Penalty games – nightmares, fear effects, illusions, mind crushes, etc.
Think Yami Yugi, or Ban Midou, or Gwydion ap Dôn (from the Mabinogion, not Prydain Chronicles). It's awesome on the fluff side.
A lot of people dislike the mechanics. I want to play it first and then see if I like the play, but I REALLY like the fluff.
Don't get me wrong i love the idea, is a combination of one of my favorite sources with one of my favorite roles (not usually a grid filler but it happens). And the fluff is cool, you're right I love the myraid of effects they can pull of. I will play it, and I hope it will be fun to play. In the end the only thing that matters is if it is fun.
Agreed, fun before sheer mechanical prowess. Of course, a certain degree of fun -comes- from having mechanics that are balanced with all other mechanics. In the end, it might be slightly less proficient as a defender, but hey – Paladin was less proficient than the Fighter when PH1 was released, and they retconned Divine Sanction in with DP. They can probably fix any problems with Battlemind.