Why does WotC release the campaign guide, for example to FR, and not the players guide at the same time? Heck, for that matter and the basic adventure?
I flipped through the FRCS and put it back. As a DM it looks good enough, but without the FRPG, its not very useful for another month and a half.
First I don't play in FR, but I might, or could if I like it. At the least if I buy the book I may merge FR and Eberron together.
Second, until I can see the benefits of the new feats, classes and powers for the players, I really don't know if the FR setting is even worth it to me, personally.
Third, I can easily read the FRCS in a weekend, so unless I am a freakishly fast reader, I don't need all that extra time.
I guess I just don't understand the business logic. Had they released the core rules like this, I would have been ticked.
Not sure where to ask, so asking here.
Why does WotC release the campaign guide, for example to FR, and not the players guide at the same time? Heck, for that matter and the basic adventure?
I flipped through the FRCS and put it back. As a DM it looks good enough, but without the FRPG, its not very useful for another month and a half.
First I don't play in FR, but I might, or could if I like it. At the least if I buy the book I may merge FR and Eberron together.
Second, until I can see the benefits of the new feats, classes and powers for the players, I really don't know if the FR setting is even worth it to me, personally.
Third, I can easily read the FRCS in a weekend, so unless I am a freakishly fast reader, I don't need all that extra time.
I guess I just don't understand the business logic. Had they released the core rules like this, I would have been ticked.
Two reasons come to mind:
[indent]1.) DMs need time to prepare for their campaigns. (Some DM's need more time than others.) By the time FRPG and FR1 get released next month, DMs will be ready to start running brand-new 4E Realms games.
2.) Some players can only afford to buy one book each month. This arrangement allows them to buy both.[/indent]Since WotC (and most publishers) release new products on a monthly basis, one month is the shortest possible delay between releases.
All of the FR products will be released within a space of one month; this is hardly much of a wait.
Two reasons come to mind:
[indent]1.) DMs need time to prepare for their campaigns. (Some DM's need more time than others.) By the time FRPG and FR1 get released next month, DMs will be ready to start running brand-new 4E Realms games.
2.) Some players can only afford to buy one book each month. This arrangement allows them to buy both.[/indent]Since WotC (and most publishers) release new products on a monthly basis, one month is the shortest possible delay between releases.
All of the FR products will be released within a space of one month; this is hardly much of a wait.
I pondered some of these reasons. I still don't see the logic.
As a DM, I do get both books, most players I'd guess buy just the players book. I still see more advantage in releasing both at the same time so that everyone can read and digest.
I know, its only a month.
Also as said the CG is the book the DM will need to make their campaign. The PG will be mostly crunch stuff for player creation and not vital to campaign design. If both came out at the same time many players would want to start right away and if you're doing a FR campaign you wouldn't have time to prepare the campaign ahead of time. Especialy in FR there's a LOT of changes between 3.5 and 4e Realms and a lot of the landscape and personalities have changed (Elminister is now nothing more than a source of info, no more popping in to save the day).
With Eberron they don't plan on doing such a drastic change as they felt that Eberron already was closer to the 4e PoL style setting than FR was (of course it's got a lot less history and sourcebooks out for it being less than half the age of FR).
Also only parts of the CG are useful outside of FR (some of the creatures, terrain, and items) while the PG will have lots of stuff that can be used in any campaign. I prefer that they put out the CG first rather than second.
Not sure where to ask, so asking here.
Why does WotC release the campaign guide, for example to FR, and not the players guide at the same time? Heck, for that matter and the basic adventure?
I flipped through the FRCS and put it back. As a DM it looks good enough, but without the FRPG, its not very useful for another month and a half.
Wow. In the old days, a campaign guide is good enough for both players and DM to start playing in the published game world.
If they left out player-only information from the new 4e campaign guide, then not only it is useless without the other half -- though one can make due with just the rules in the Player's Handbook -- it is ripping DM customers off by forcing them to buy both the player's guide as well as the campaign guide. Bad enough DM have to have all three books for the D&D rules.
Each respective guide has more information for the specified group. Since they only plan on putting out 3 books for a setting, this is a good idea. More bang for the buck so to speak. Not to mention, if the players only ever need the player's guide, then they won't 'accidentally' read any of the DM only material. Such as monsters, npc's, plot hooks for an area, etc.
If you are the DM and you plan on buying both, releasing them separately can be a good idea, because, as someone said it gives you time to prepare, it also gives the reader a chance to read and absorb as much info from one source, instead of two. Most people can't fully comprehend and appreciate watching two television shows at one time. You miss little details which could be critical to the plot, or important for the game.
There is another option: It could be part of WotC's business plan to only release a certain amount of books per month. Remember, there are other things coming out besides the FR stuff. It bears mentioning again, not every player/DM is made of money. They have to pick and choose what they want/can afford. Do I buy the FRCS or H3 Pyramid of Shadows and the DM's screen?
WotC is generally releasing 3 products per month, until December. The only exception is October with the deluxe editions, but I think of those more as reprints than actual products. So there may be more to the delay in releasing a book than player concerns, it could be a deal with the printers.
Now to go with some personal points towards what are saying Phobos:
Maybe some people an read a book in a very short time, others can't - whether due to comprehension or actually having to do something else. Many people have work, families, non D&D social interaction that would preclude them from reading the whole book in one or two sittings. Just because you, Phobos, have the ample spare time doesn't mean everyone else does.
If you like the setting of Forgotten Realms, you don't NEED the players guide. There should be enough to make an interesting character in the PHB that can fit into the world. Also, if you aren't sure if you'll like the world, then only buying one book saves you money, as you can get the feel from the fluff of the DM's guide and if it's no good you've only spend what 35-40 dollars instead of 70-80?
If you can only tell if a setting is good based on a feats and abilities for the players then, and I'll try to say this in an inoffensive way as possible.. No, actually I won't, you sound like a powergamer frankly. If that's the case, then you probably don't need the DM's guide at all - all the fluff would get in the way. I'm not sorry if that sounds harsh. But, if you find that the only measure of a setting is what the players get, then I wouldn't want to play in your game. A setting should spark ideas for a campaign with what you read, it should be rich and detailed as possible while lending lots of open areas to explore and add in what you want, it should never be about the loot and powers of the players. I guess my view differs from yours then.
Two reasons come to mind:
[indent]1.) DMs need time to prepare for their campaigns. (Some DM's need more time than others.) By the time FRPG and FR1 get released next month, DMs will be ready to start running brand-new 4E Realms games.
2.) Some players can only afford to buy one book each month. This arrangement allows them to buy both.[/indent]Since WotC (and most publishers) release new products on a monthly basis, one month is the shortest possible delay between releases.
All of the FR products will be released within a space of one month; this is hardly much of a wait.
I'd guess its #1, because as I commented on in the thread at the top of this section, they not been balancing (as I think they likely should) uses for players for very well. Next month, we have Adventures Vault and the Players Guide to Faerun,then we have Martial Power in October, then nothing for Players until March basically. March and April are lots of player options, then none for a few months then back to more. They would sell better if they did only one player item a month, of course the cards would sell better if they actually put them on the D&D list for 2009 (not there yet) and they are hurting novel sales with 2008 being the year of the single novel, so I'm not sure I expect they to buy a clue and improve the situation.
-Tig
Two reasons come to mind:
[indent]1.) DMs need time to prepare for their campaigns. (Some DM's need more time than others.) By the time FRPG and FR1 get released next month, DMs will be ready to start running brand-new 4E Realms games.
2.) Some players can only afford to buy one book each month. This arrangement allows them to buy both.[/indent]Since WotC (and most publishers) release new products on a monthly basis, one month is the shortest possible delay between releases.
All of the FR products will be released within a space of one month; this is hardly much of a wait.
You left out mentioning spacing product so that retailers can A)afford to stock it (not a problem for Amazon etc, but just ask your FLGS owner), B) have something new each month.
Though I'd suspect that player/customer/even retailer needs ALL take a back seat to WoTC own need to show x amount of new sales per month in cases like this.
...
If they left out player-only information from the new 4e campaign guide, then not only it is useless without the other half -- though one can make due with just the rules in the Player's Handbook -- it is ripping DM customers off by forcing them to buy both the player's guide as well as the campaign guide. Bad enough DM have to have all three books for the D&D rules.
And how about the players who don't want to buy a book full of DM information useless to them? I think players outnumber DMs roughly five to one.
And how about the players who don't want to buy a book full of DM information useless to them? I think players outnumber DMs roughly five to one.
It's a campaign guide. It's for DMs.
I'm all for a player's guide WITHOUT game content. Then all you need for game content is in the Player's Handbook.
WotC is owned by one of America's biggest toy companies, and you'd be wrong to think Hasbro doesn't have a whole wing of marketing planners who determine what products get released when.
Products like campaign settings are fairly front-loaded where profits are concerned. Each group only needs one campaign guide, and most people who are going to buy it are probably going to buy it in the first few months it's out. Several players in each FR group will buy copies of the player's guide, and then the adventure comes out (which not every group will buy and those that do will only need one copy). So, for every dedicated FR group, WotC is selling 1 campaign guide for every 2-3 player's guides, and maybe 1 adventure.
In marketing terms, the campaign guide is basically a $40 advertisement for the player's guide, which is the real money maker. Stretching the releases out over a few months ensures a constant revenue stream while people buzz about the new setting.
They also put out the DM Screen and H3 this month, and they know that many gamers are also picking up a slew of the post-GenCon product that comes out every august.
WotC is owned by one of America's biggest toy companies, and you'd be wrong to think Hasbro doesn't have a whole wing of marketing planners who determine what products get released when.
Products like campaign settings are fairly front-loaded where profits are concerned. Each group only needs one campaign guide, and most people who are going to buy it are probably going to buy it in the first few months it's out. Several players in each FR group will buy copies of the player's guide, and then the adventure comes out (which not every group will buy and those that do will only need one copy). So, for every dedicated FR group, WotC is selling 1 campaign guide for every 2-3 player's guides, and maybe 1 adventure.
In marketing terms, the campaign guide is basically a $40 advertisement for the player's guide, which is the real money maker. Stretching the releases out over a few months ensures a constant revenue stream while people buzz about the new setting.
I love it when someones comment basically proves the point they didnt understand/believe in the first place. Its been blatantly obvious that Hasbro/WOTC in fact isnt stretching out the releases in terms of sales. Your very example shows that. This month we got DMs Guide, H3, and the Campaign Guide to Faerun. Which of those are every player at your table going to buy? None of them. Next month we Adventurers Vault, FR Players Guide and the Forgotten Realms Module. So both books next month, it would not be surprising at all to have every one (or nearly everyone) at your table with both volumes at home or even at the table. To work a constant revenue stream, WOTC should sell a book for the players every other month, instead of 2 next month, one in october and then not another one until March. Thats not planning for a constant revenue stream, its trying to sell products as quick as they can get them done. But despite evidence to the contrary, WOTC still doesnt think not listing novels (or the new Power Cards) on the product lists effects sales either.
-Tig
The Campaign Guide doesn't require as much playtesting, being a fluff book. It can be -ready- earlier simply based on that.
The Player's Guide, however, had to be both playtested AND if something changed in the Campaign Guide, the FRPG had to be updated as well. If you think it was in -any- way possible for them to be completed at the same time, you're delusional.
Obviously, the FRPG couldn't be completed first, either, so the ONLY possible outcomes were to either release the FRCG and FRPG at the same time, or release them seperately with the FRCG first. Those are your only two options.
If they'd decided to release both at the same time, then we wouldn't -have- the FRCG right now, we'd be waiting a month for it. If you think they didn't want the crunch out asap, you're mistaken on how business works. The FRPG is out as soon as possible, which is next month. They -know- it's the first major sourcebook of crunch for -all- campaigns and they're not going to hold that back -especially- because unlike the FRCG it is more campaign-world-agnostic.
Be patient. It took a lot longer than 3-4 months before Forgotten Realms stuff came out for D&D3. They learned their lesson with the 'Let's-release-greyhawk-stuff-even-tho-The-Realms-is-the-setting-everyone-buys' mentality they started with in D&D3.
WotC is owned by one of America's biggest toy companies, and you'd be wrong to think Hasbro doesn't have a whole wing of marketing planners who determine what products get released when.
I'm having a hard time believing that Hasbro would be using their own resources micro-managing WotC's product release. They have their own company to run in case you haven't noticed. If they didn't think WotC is competent to run on its own, they wouldn't have given WotC's Avalon Hill brand to manage.
I love it when someones comment basically proves the point they didnt understand/believe in the first place. Its been blatantly obvious that Hasbro/WOTC in fact isnt stretching out the releases in terms of sales. Your very example shows that. This month we got DMs Guide, H3, and the Campaign Guide to Faerun. Which of those are every player at your table going to buy? None of them. Next month we Adventurers Vault, FR Players Guide and the Forgotten Realms Module. So both books next month, it would not be surprising at all to have every one (or nearly everyone) at your table with both volumes at home or even at the table. To work a constant revenue stream, WOTC should sell a book for the players every other month, instead of 2 next month, one in october and then not another one until March. Thats not planning for a constant revenue stream, its trying to sell products as quick as they can get them done. But despite evidence to the contrary, WOTC still doesnt think not listing novels (or the new Power Cards) on the product lists effects sales either.
-Tig
You didn't use a single apostrophe in your whole damn reply. Everyone on the internet knows that the validity of one's comment rests solely on the correct usage of punctuation. Grammar fail.
I'm having a hard time believing that Hasbro would be using their own resources micro-managing WotC's product release.
I'm having a hard time believing that you're having a hard time believing. Can you believe that?
Me neither.
You didn't use a single apostrophe in your whole damn reply. Everyone on the internet knows that the validity of one's comment rests solely on the correct usage of punctuation. Grammar fail.
Actually arguing about Spelling (which lack of apostrophe's would be in this case, not grammer), is one of the three ways to automatically lose an argument on the internet. Go for the Trifecta if you want, but I believe the 3rd one violates the TOS of the site.
-Tig
Actually arguing about Spelling (which lack of apostrophe's would be in this case, not grammer), is one of the three ways to automatically lose an argument on the internet. Go for the Trifecta if you want, but I believe the 3rd one violates the TOS of the site.
-Tig
One dropped comma, one misplaced apostrophe, and one misspelling FTW. Bonus points because you did it all in one sentence.
One dropped comma, one misplaced apostrophe, and one misspelling FTW. Bonus points because you did it all in one sentence.
You seem to miss the point of message #20, and since I'm willing to bet my English is better then your Swahili, this is really getting us nowhere, and is greatly off topic. If your best route for discussion on this board is to count spelling and apostrophe issues, I'm fairly sure no one on this board has a great need to spend time reading your posts.
-Tig
You seem to miss the point of message #20, and since I'm willing to bet my English is better then your Swahili, this is really getting us nowhere, and is greatly off topic. If your best route for discussion on this board is to count spelling and apostrophe issues, I'm fairly sure no one on this board has a great need to spend time reading your posts.
-Tig
No, I got the point of message #20. I just didn't find it compelling (and I admit I'm stumped as to why you'd drag my Swahili into this. Debe tupu haliachi kuvuma, after all.). The reason I've gone down this ridiculous road in the first place is that you didn't bother to spend time reading post #14 before attempting, shakily, to insult it with post #15.
I've come to expect as much on these forums, which seem generally more interested in the fevered assertion of unfounded opinions than in any sort of actual discussion.
Regardless, I'm out of this thread. I can only spend so much time arguing with someone named Tigger before the empathetic embarrassment becomes becomes too much to take.
I'm happy to have wasted your time, though.
No, I got the point of message #20. I just didn't find it compelling (and I admit I'm stumped as to why you'd drag my Swahili into this. Debe tupu haliachi kuvuma, after all.). The reason I've gone down this ridiculous road in the first place is that you didn't bother to spend time reading post #14 before attempting, shakily, to insult it with post #15.
I brought up Swahili, because its my native language as I am guessing English is yours, I'm guessing I speak (and write) your native language better then you speak mine, but you still decided to become a member of the grammer police and talk about spelling. If you didnt like post #15, then how about talking about the contents of post #15, instead of your love of certain punctuation marks.
Regardless, I'm out of this thread. I can only spend so much time arguing with someone named Tigger before the empathetic embarrassment becomes becomes too much to take.
I'm happy to have wasted your time, though.
Gee, making fun of signon names now, hey thats strike two, awesome, I knew you could do that. I'm sure Baik_Telor is on your drivers license.
-TigI'm sure Baik_Telor is on your drivers license.
I wasn't actually making fun of your screen name. I just meant that it's hard for me to sustain prolonged interest in arguing with someone on the internet (who's name is unknown to me). To be fair that's not the way my post came across, though. And while I don't have a driver's license, that is my name (minus the underscore of course).
English is not my first language, either. I just try to write it correctly, especially since the internet is destroying language (or, arguably, recreating it). This will be my last post on this thread. Enjoy the rest of your life.
With the frackin PC sheets debocle $9.99 for a folder w/4 sheets in it and some useless cards, WoTC is just proving that they care nothing about their customers and Hasbro needs to burn in hell!
I haven't bought the book because of all the bad reviews everywhere on this release, if the quality does not improve, i may dump 4e and go somewhere else for my gaming needs.......Its like they have a bunch of video game geeks and 5th graders writing this bunk.
Its like they have a bunch of video game geeks and 5th graders writing this bunk.
Actually... when I first picked up and starting reading through the PHB, and reading the powers, it really felt like I was reading the mechanics rules behind an MMO.
Take a look at the Amazon.com reviews on this book, almost all are ****** off at this book. Its a flop, netting only 2.5 stars right now!
With the frackin PC sheets debocle $9.99 for a folder w/4 sheets in it and some useless cards, WoTC is just proving that they care nothing about their customers and Hasbro needs to burn in hell!
I haven't bought the book because of all the bad reviews everywhere on this release, if the quality does not improve, i may dump 4e and go somewhere else for my gaming needs.......Its like they have a bunch of video game geeks and 5th graders writing this bunk.
Regrettably, Amazon's "star" rating is a poor judge of quality; it doesn't factor in whether or not someone has actually read the book, nor whether they're informed on the product. Unscrupulous reviewers can post reviews based upon their opinion of aspects not truly relevant to the book review process, and this often happens with controversial hobby products (including 3E, 3.5E, and 4E). Essentially, the rating system at Amazon is highly vulnerable to nerd rage.
If you want a reasonable review of a product, I suggest you take the opinion of someone who's read it, whom you trust.
Take a look at the Amazon.com reviews on this book, almost all are ****** off at this book. Its a flop, netting only 2.5 stars right now!
With the frackin PC sheets debocle $9.99 for a folder w/4 sheets in it and some useless cards, WoTC is just proving that they care nothing about their customers and Hasbro needs to burn in hell!
I haven't bought the book because of all the bad reviews everywhere on this release, if the quality does not improve, i may dump 4e and go somewhere else for my gaming needs.......Its like they have a bunch of video game geeks and 5th graders writing this bunk.
The Character Sheets were terrible. I'm not as big a critic of the FRCS, though that may change. Part of the issue, is that becasue of our new division of materials (as seen in DMG vs PH) I'm not sure that the CG is that bad with the exception of some story points, most of which I suspected would happen after the fiasco of a module that was "Anauroch: The Empire of Shade". The 100 Shadovar being the most powerful force in Faerun, is pretty silly, honestly someone should explain how quickly Larloch would take care of them.
-Tig