Want this to be constructive not bashing for sake of bashing.
Is it because you wanted other setting? is it because your character died? is it because it not your play style? is it because you have to buy it (sorry had to throw that in there)? too flavor full or not flavorful enough? too diffrent or not diffrent enough? Because of what it was back when? What is it that makes you haters hate?
There's DS hate? I must be missing it.
Seconded.
. So what other complaints are there? Please feel free to share.I think the two main complaints are "I would've prefered a setting I prefer" and "They changed it, now it sucks."
In other words the same old complaints.
So I'm the exact opposite. I'm freakin loving 4e DS. The only thing I'm actually hating, is waiting... C'mon DARKSUN!!! WOOHOO!
Then convert them to Eberron.
This time, though, I will be buying it as it is in 4E and I know it will be easy to use. A lot of settings in previous editions (particularly 2E) added too many rules that made the setting less attractive to play. In 4E, I know that is not the case so I'm looking forward to seeing Dark Sun when it comes out.
Off topic plug - bring on Greyhawk though, that has to come soon!
.....Oh. That DS.
Off topic plug - bring on Greyhawk though, that has to come soon!
Off topic and slightly crude response ... I would be surprised if WotC didn't let Greyhawk die with its creator.
Always hated DS with a passion. Uber low magic, uber low "tech" (lets face it the stone ace basically sucks) uber low survivability.
What reason would I ever play there by choice?
Low magic? Dark Sun had magic that shattered the world, destroyed nations, turned nearly the entire planet into a desert, and turned it's most powerful practioners into dragons, elemental, or angels permanently. How the hell is that low magic?
And mnow that Psionics is listed as magic, and since everyone and their dog is Psionic, well that's even more magic.
Bringing back DS is such a good decision, I'm kind of surprised that WOTC made it. Usually they seem to do the opposite of what I want!
thing only complaining i have heard about ds falls into two camps:
(i) the direction of 2e ds after the initial box set (prism pentad and such); and,
(ii) 4e adaptions to the ds setting.
the first category is not relevant to the 4e setting and the second category is fine with me.
Dark Sun is for my money the best campaign world ever produced for any edition of D&D. I'm glad to see it make a comeback in 4E. It is the only reason I'm really thinking about playing 4E right now (tried it, didn't like the game... but DS may cause me to give it another shot).
Bringing back DS is such a good decision, I'm kind of surprised that WOTC made it. Usually they seem to do the opposite of what I want!
While I don't think DS was the best setting ever created for D&D in any edition I agree with the rest of the statement.
I never got to play DS back in the 2nd ed days...just never find a group that wanted to play in it...so even though I dislike 4th ed I will probably play in a DS game being started by a friend.
I just hope they don't rip the setting apart...sure from what we hear it is basicaly feels right with some minor issues but who knows what we will get at the end of the day...
Yes I really have no more faith in the WotC design team...
Want this to be constructive not bashing for sake of bashing.
Is it because you wanted other setting? is it because your character died? is it because it not your play style? is it because you have to buy it (sorry had to throw that in there)? too flavor full or not flavorful enough? too diffrent or not diffrent enough? Because of what it was back when? What is it that makes you haters hate?
I am a Dark Sun Fan, but I don't see an inordinate amount of DS hate. No setting is going to appeal to everyone.
As an illustration, take post #7 from this thread from the Dark Sun encounters forum: community.wizards.com/dungeonsanddragons...
While I liked the overall content (as I expressed in a later post), one thing I noticed - and dropped - when I used it myself were the (let's call them what they are) elitist comments:
"Recovery on Athas would be torture on any other world;"
"And safe, on Athas, would certainly kill an adventurer on any other world."
I don't mean to pick on that one poster, as he's certainly not the only one to include that sort of unnecessary aside on that forum or elsewhere, but they were examples that leapt out at me as I was reading that thread/post in the run-up to the third session.
Not only do these kinds of comments come across as snooty, they're implicitly insulting every PC that the reader has played in any other setting - so it should be no surprise that, superiority-affirming as the Dark Sun fan in question may see them, they antagonize everyone else.
Off topic plug - bring on Greyhawk though, that has to come soon!
I'd love to see a 4e Greyhawk too. Alas, it's likely to be deemed "too generic" to publish. Especially when they already have a generic "pseudo-medieval Europe" fantasy setting with FR (which, IMHO was never as interestign as Greyhawk).
I would be happy with Dragon/Dungeon articles with Greyhawk info like CD stuff for the deities, PPs, EDs, etc. to allow you to play on Oerth. (We already have Pelor)
And for an on-topic response, I haven't seen much DS hate on the forums. Or anywhere for that matter. I have no experience with it (my 1st & 2nd edition D&D experience was relegated to video games and books) but know several people who absolutely loved it. I see more hate on the forums from FR grognards who don't like the 4e change to the setting than I have ever seen directed at DS.
Meh.
I don't much care if it doesn't last any longer this time around either.
I don't hate it though, I just don't care if it survives.
Now I DO hate what they did to the Realms, and will not play anything 4th edition as a result. Anything Realms in any of my games, will be content that is relevant to 2nd edition even if I have to make it myself.
But I went to Eberron at any rate. Realms would only be a fluke side trip now.
If 4e destroys darksun, I wouldn't abandon 4e. I would make my own 4e darksun and it would be a reflection of the original, based on the original, adapted to the new system. The only downside is that character builder would become either less useful or useless.
Though I love and want "MY" 4e darksun, it's still not enough to consider unwanted changes as personal insults. Nerfed thrikreen and no athasian classes? No Divine power in darksun, wow, I don't like that very much...... Now I'm over it. Simple as that. I'll get used to the changes, or I'll make my own. I'm not going to refuse to play 4e (which I enjoy) simply because they screw up my favorite setting. Yes, I might consider the published product to be uninteresting and unusable when I see it, but the system itself (4e) is just dandy. So I'm a dedicate 4e user.
All that said, I won't rob my self of expressing my opinion on 4e DS changes when I participate in a
relevant thread. Sometimes I'll even go all "grognard/traditionalist." I love the setting, after all.
I don't like Dark Sun. It has nearly everything I don't like and nearly nothing I do like in a setting. I was massively disappointed when it was announced, and being a FR fan, all the 'we're rebooting it don't worry we won't screw it up' was a slap in the face after they did screw the living hell out of FR.
I'm not going to threadcrap every Dark Sun thread ever with it, and I'm actually running Encounters this season to give it a chance, but I'm almost certainly not ever going to play it or run it again. It's just not at all my cup of tea.
*shrug*
There's DS hate? I must be missing it.
I hate Dark sun.
The lack of heavy metal armour makes it boring to me, and on top of that, everything about it just seems too different solely for the sake of being different. It is so different, in fact, that it doesn't even feel like Dungeons and Dragons anymore. If I wanted to play in some kind of strange, disgusting setting in which people(?) run around wielding stone weapons and wearing the shells of giant insects, I'd go play in Tekumel, which is the setting TSR ripped off when they invented Dark Sun.
No thanks. Give me traditional fantasy any day. I hate that WotC is wasting resources on producing DS instead of something better...
I'm sure the Thri-Kreen will be happy to show the Bugbears just who is the buggier!
Muls (mool? mule?) should prove interesting to play and create.
Half-Giants? Large and in charge!
I hate Dark sun.
The lack of heavy metal armour makes it boring to me, and on top of that, everything about it just seems too different solely for the sake of being different. It is so different, in fact, that it doesn't even feel like Dungeons and Dragons anymore. If I wanted to play in some kind of strange, disgusting setting in which people(?) run around wielding stone weapons and wearing the shells of giant insects, I'd go play in Tekumel, which is the setting TSR ripped off when they invented Dark Sun.
No thanks. Give me traditional fantasy any day. I hate that WotC is wasting resources on producing DS instead of something better...
See, I knew I was missing the frothing mad on. Thanks for clearing that up.
I'm not familiar Tekumel. What are the similarities of that setting as Dark Sun draws inspiration from many sources such as post-apocolyptic stories and John Carter of Mars to name two?
As it leans to being a psionic heavy setting I can say that does not appeal to me (to many bad experiences with psionics in prior editions), and it goes back and forth. For each thing I don't like there is another that sounds fun/interesting.
My 2 bits.
Note: I would agree with the idea that people that aren't into psionics aren't interested in this setting because of that.
I'm not familiar Tekumel.
There's a Wikipedia article on it that I found interesting and informative.
What are the similarities of that setting as Dark Sun draws inspiration from many sources such as post-apocolyptic stories and John Carter of Mars to name two?
It looks like it started out as an inhospitable world, some terraforming aliens turned it into a resort planet, and then it was suddenly moved to another dimension (along with a few nearby planets) where the planet's original state reasserted itself. Ultradimensional powers, and god-like planar entities, were harnessed and developed like magic; an understanding of technology was lost, and only tradition taught how to use what remained of their original space-faring culture. The focus of the setting is on five primarily human civilizations occupying a particular section of the main planet.
So it shares a little of the gottdammerung aspect of Dark Sun, although in Tekumel the metaphorical twilight is for the humanoids and for science (as "gods" appear) and in Dark Sun the twilight is for everyone who's not a sorcerer-king. And the settings both focus on a particular region of their cosmology. In Tekumel I saw more about ancient technology than harsh survival, though. One of the things that makes Dark Sun more like traditional post-apocalyptic stories is that we know very well what devastating the world (arcane magic, with defiling instead of fallout) - Tekumel just has speculation as to why a planetary system suddenly changed dimensions. I suspect the settings have very different tones.
It looks like it started out as an inhospitable world, some terraforming aliens turned it into a resort planet, and then it was suddenly moved to another dimension (along with a few nearby planets) where the planet's original state reasserted itself. Ultradimensional powers, and god-like planar entities, were harnessed and developed like magic; an understanding of technology was lost, and only tradition taught how to use what remained of their original space-faring culture. The focus of the setting is on five primarily human civilizations occupying a particular section of the main planet.
So it shares a little of the gottdammerung aspect of Dark Sun, although in Tekumel the metaphorical twilight is for the humanoids and for science (as "gods" appear) and in Dark Sun the twilight is for everyone who's not a sorcerer-king. And the settings both focus on a particular region of their cosmology. In Tekumel I saw more about ancient technology than harsh survival, though. One of the things that makes Dark Sun more like traditional post-apocalyptic stories is that we know very well what devastating the world (arcane magic, with defiling instead of fallout) - Tekumel just has speculation as to why a planetary system suddenly changed dimensions. I suspect the settings have very different tones.
Oh yeah, they totally ripped of Tekumel. They sound exactly alike.
I believe that the setting in 2nd edition came out after the second of the Mad Max movies, though the connection may be coincidence at best.
Seriously, The price of athasian gas is ridiculous, so my badass armored dune buggyalways gets left at the alturak autohold and trying to find shells for my bamboo shotgun is a real pain in the ass. I'm tired of rocksalt. I want buckshot and solid slugs for once! And don't get me started on masterblaster. He still owes me for that shwag I got him.
I believe that the setting in 2nd edition came out after the second of the Mad Max movies, though the connection may be coincidence at best.
Considering Mad Max 2 came out in 1981, and the last Mad Max came out in 1985, and Dark Sun came out in 1991 ...
And Mad Max is hardly the first or last story of its kind ... If anything, as Tectuktitlay says the Jon Carter of Mars story has a greater influence than Mad Max of all things on Dark Sun. Dying planet, psychic powers, weird and strange takes on regular earth animal life, etc. Not that it's the only influence either of course.
There's DS hate? I must be missing it.
I hate Dark sun.
The lack of heavy metal armour makes it boring to me, and on top of that, everything about it just seems too different solely for the sake of being different. It is so different, in fact, that it doesn't even feel like Dungeons and Dragons anymore. If I wanted to play in some kind of strange, disgusting setting in which people(?) run around wielding stone weapons and wearing the shells of giant insects, I'd go play in Tekumel, which is the setting TSR ripped off when they invented Dark Sun.
No thanks. Give me traditional fantasy any day. I hate that WotC is wasting resources on producing DS instead of something better...
D&D steals material from outside fictional sources. News at 11.
I like Dark Sun, but I can never visualize a character that I would like to play in Dark Sun. A little off topic, but how the hell do you pronounce Mul? Is it pronounced mule, mool, or mull?
I just hate the wait.
This xInfinity and friggin beyond! I'v been ready for 4e DS since the day I first cracked open the 4e PHB1.
At my local shop, there's everything short of a running tally of the number of players who die every week. I understand the point of the setting is that it's a deadly wasteland, but look at it from a brand new player's perspective: if he comes in looking for a fantasy adventure where he can be totally awesome, and instead watches his character die in his very first session, what's the incentive to come back? Heck, I've been playing in Encounters since the beginning, and it's only the camaraderie I have with the other players at the table that keeps me coming back this season. Which IS the most important thing, but how many brand new players are going to understand that straight out the gate?
Yes, I like the setting. No, I don't believe that the huge amount of focus they're giving it is as beneficial to the D&D brand as they think.
Then again, I'm not a marketing guy either, so maybe I'm wrong. Either way, I'll be happy to see more options show up in my Character Builder come September.
Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E Howard (Conan, Almuric, Zothique etc, hard gritty fantasy often of sheer survival),
"apocalyptic genre" in general, not Mad Max per se. See "Damnation Alley" (film) or "The Cursed Earth" series (2000AD comic)
and I suspect John Norman's "Gor" series (at least the early novels before it became BDSM silly, sigh. Assassin of Gor and Marauders of Gor are bloody awesome)
so those are books Dark Sun players should read IMHO for good flavour
2) What the heck is with the "oh I hates it cause there's no full plate +5" ?! lol. So what, would you wear full plate on Earth in the desert, hm?
on Athas it' would be suicide, it's even hotter!
folk do have plate armour on Athas, fyi, it's made of chitin, braxat hide and other stuff that isn't so heat conductive or rare
3rd and 4th eds armour systems make it more udnerstandable that heavier is not always better (slow movement etc).
And a plain old shield is available on Athas.
4th ed also FINALLY fixes the gross caster versus melee imbalance. Everyone shines, not just "Gandalf"
(And I am a wizard player by choice, fyi, and I admit it was badly out of balance until 4th ed)
3) 2nd ed had..problems. loved it, but, it had problems. Like, psionics was complex, they later came out with the MTHAC0 system for psionics which helped but all in all, 2nd ed was too complex in the wrong ways and didn't add enough roleplaying/sneak skills to the characters which are VITAL for Dark Sun.
And note, I wrote two versions of psionics systems in 2nd ed to fix the damn thing to play Dark Sun, sigh.
4) yes a setting where you could get slaughtered if you were too stupid to RUN AWAY or shut yer damn gob and accept a beating!!!! Hurray!! I love it!!
Yes I am a DM, but amazingly my players love my Dark Sun games, 'cause they knew to shaddup, run, poison, backstab, play enemy against enemy etc.
Athas is NOT for goody toe shoes paladins (which I otherwise often like, the differencs of Atha smake it very refreshing!)
I don't actually like or encourage evil PCs, but Athas is largely about sheer survival.
In one campaign, one character was a drug dealer wizard/cleric (to make a living and stay out of slavery, hey folks often don't get much choice on Athas, sell dope or be made a slave or even worse, be caught as a Veilied Alliance member), another was a psychotic gladiator with a penchant for torturing folk who narked him off. Fine by me, made sense as character designs and lead to a lot of harsh, fun RPing.
Both Dark Sun and Tekumel seem to draw on Barsoom for inspiration. So what? Tolkien took a lot of his dwarf names (as well as Gandalf the wizard) right out of the Elder Edda, and he took the invisibility ring from Plato's Republic. Big deal. One source, plagiarism. Many sources, research.
But Tekumel and Dark Sun are opposites in most ways. Tekumel used to be alien but was terraformed. Dark Sun used to be terran but now is a wasteland. Tekumel is covered with jungles, swamps and oceans (OK, kind of like the Desert of Athas tile set), Dark Sun is all desert of various types. Both have weird monsters, and both lack metal (but in Tekumel they use triceratops hide that has been alchemically cured... it turns into something like carbon composite). In Tekumel, magic is just psionics and ancient technology (magic items are mostly old ray guns and the like), but in Dark Sun etc. You get the idea.
I know there's no accounting for taste, but lack of heavy metal armor as a downside? What about the upside of charging on a giant riding lizard and stabbing a mantis dude with a xyston carved from a giant's femur? Or a beserk half-giant gladiator throwing evil lackeys off the ramparts of a blood-soaked ziggurat?
Someone pass me a mantis-chitin breastplate.
Someone pass me a mantis-chitin breastplate.
I seriously think I'm going to ask if I can turn the thri-kreen party member into chitin armor if he dies.
*patting his armor*
"This is Bob. I never did learn how to pronounce his bug name, but I liked Bob. He always had my back. Or she. I never could tell, although that might explain the gay stuff. Anyways, I'm glad Bob still has my back."
I believe that the setting in 2nd edition came out after the second of the Mad Max movies, though the connection may be coincidence at best.
Considering Mad Max 2 came out in 1981, and the last Mad Max came out in 1985, and Dark Sun came out in 1991 ...
And Mad Max is hardly the first or last story of its kind ... If anything, as Tectuktitlay says the Jon Carter of Mars story has a greater influence than Mad Max of all things on Dark Sun. Dying planet, psychic powers, weird and strange takes on regular earth animal life, etc. Not that it's the only influence either of course.
John Carter of Mars has recently gone to the Public Domain (Copyright = Author's Death +75 years or such)... 4E John Carter ? Hmmm...
John Carter of Mars has recently gone to the Public Domain (Copyright = Author's Death +75 years or such)... 4E John Carter ? Hmmm...
In the US it's life + 70 years. However, that's only for works published after 1978 or unpublished works. JC of Mars was first serialized in 1912 and all pre-1923 published works are in the public domain. However, I would bet there's some legal wrangling if exclusive rights were transfered prior to or upon death to a third party. Nothing is ever simple. ;)