Will Comeliness Make a Comeback? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Will Comeliness Make a Comeback?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
elfwench
Jan 31, 2009 8:57:07 Yes, I know this is reaching back to the ancient history of the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, but I miss the Comeliness stat. It could make things... interesting. Yes, I know it could be houseruled. But will Comeliness, or some version of it, ever make a comeback?
#2
brotherjgizmo
Jan 31, 2009 9:24:41 Never heard of it, but it could be a feat
#3
Daphnesweets
Jan 31, 2009 9:46:31 I never cared for it back then, and don't see the need for it now. I always thought that it was more fluff that you can role play out than needing specific rules for it.

I can't see it fitting into the abilities as they are now either. They would have to increase the number of points to build a character with, and other than those few cases where people want that gorgeous appearance, it would be a dump stat, giving them more points to spend on more useful stats.
#4
doctorhook
Jan 31, 2009 10:01:20 Anyone willing to explain this concept to those of us who've never heard of it before?
#5
Nyarlathotep
Jan 31, 2009 10:14:13
Anyone willing to explain this concept to those of us who've never heard of it before?

Back in the days of 1e, in that edition's Unearthed Arcana to be precise, they introduced Comeliness as a 7th stat, representing your appearance.

My memory may be way off, but I think it also made a re-appearance in 2e in the infamous Players Option books where they experimented with breaking all of your stats up into two sub-stats and I beleive Comeliness was used as one of the sub-stats of Charisma. I may be worng on that one, though, as my memory of that Gawd-Awful book has faded over time.

Personally I didn't see a need for it in 1e and I don't see a need for it in 4e. Your character looks how he looks, no need for a stat for it. Back in 1e days it usually was used as a dump stat, unless the characters were rolled with a 'roll dice in order' system. I suspect that if it DID make a come back in 4e, with its point buy system, you'd see a lot of 8 comeliness characters running around.
#6
ambulacetus
Jan 31, 2009 11:00:29 A stat like this *could* theoretically work in an addition with 1e style stat generation (weather or not it is a good idea is up for debate) because the core assumption in older games was that you rolled 3D6 for each attribute and played them in the order they were rolled.

This method does not require the attributes to be equally useful because the value of one attribute had no effect upon the value of the others (for the sake of argument, lets say strength is the most important attribute - that was fine because players had no way to dump other attributes to gain strength). In such a system you can add a large number of situational or flavorful attributes (comeliness is an example, but their are other possibilities - table manners, humor, alcohol tolerance, cooking skill, etc...).

Unfortunately, once you allow freedom as simple as letting characters rearrange the dice they rolled, you need to keep the attributes at least situationally balanced (like 4e or 3e - all attributes aren't equal for all characters but at least some characters need a decent score in each attribute). Otherwise players will be better off putting their lowest score in one of the less important attributes or they will weaken their character.

As Nyarlathotep said, putting a new attribute in 4e would seriously unbalance the game.

Personally, I prefer to leave comeliness and other minor traits as a flavorful character choice, but their is a wee bit of simulationist in me that sees the appeal of randomly or mechanically determining minor character traits. I wouldn't do it in D&D but I have a few homebrew systems trying to accomplish different things I might consider it for.

So, if you really want this as a game mechanic I would make a new set of "minor traits" that you generate either randomly or by spending points that are totally separate from primary character resources (attributes, powers, feats, and skills). you could even mix this in with craft skills for those who really want those in their game.

i.e. at character creation you roll 3D6 X number of times and arrange for the following:
Comeliness, Cooking, Artisan, Humor, Music, etc...
#7
pigknight
Jan 31, 2009 11:20:25 Sounds like something out of FATAL.
#8
Nyarlathotep
Jan 31, 2009 11:27:10
i.e. at character creation you roll 3D6 X number of times and arrange for the following:
Comeliness, Cooking, Artisan, Humor, Music, etc...

That sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
#9
Rustmonster
Jan 31, 2009 11:31:45
Sounds like something out of FATAL.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Don't... Don't even SAY that... I don't want any chance of ANYTHING in 4E being like FATAL...
#10
Nyarlathotep
Jan 31, 2009 11:51:30 Another problem with Comeliness, when I think about it, is that it is too subjective to be really be useful. Comeliness depends a lot on things like one's culture's standards of beauty and even individual preference. An 18 STR is an 18 STR regardless of who is watching me, but my short squat fighter with the bushy red beard might turn the heads of many a dwarven lady but probably couldn't get the time of day from elven ones, and may or may not be to the tstes of his fellow humans. What should his comeliness be? And how about when he goes to deal with something like a lizardman tribe. Would they even notice his comeliness? Should my character notice that the

It's just too subjective and narrow to be useful as a full fledged stat. It could be useful as something along the lines of a feat or, better yet, a background, but not as a stat like they did it back in the day.
#11
Tharag_Bocc
Jan 31, 2009 14:59:36 Agreed, that there isn't really any place in 4E for comeliness as a stat. Also, while physical attractiveness is usually subjective matter, D&D is a fantasy world and in a fantasy world creature of universal beauty can exist. As example the lady Galadriel from The Lord of the Rings, was said to be an individual of exceptional beauty. Not even the gruff Gimli could resist her eleven grace.

As such I could seet beeing something done with with a Feat. Maybe something like...

#12
doctorhook
Jan 31, 2009 15:36:06 Toss me into the group that says, "More stats would unbalance the game."

It's not that I think it couldn't be balanced, but I think the level of intricacy one would have to pursue to do so would take the system well beyond the complexity that anyone is willing to tolerate resolving in their heads for fun. Electronically, it could work.

What I'm leading into here is that I think 4E is probably one of the finest tabletop systems to be made, but that computerized versions of the ruleset could create an equally balanced but more sophisticated game. (The main reason being that computers can easily do complex calculations which most people aren't willing or able to do on-the-fly during a game.)[/tangent]
#13
GMforPowergamers
Jan 31, 2009 15:56:17 back in the end of 2e one of our players who was a math wiz created a formula to have an appearance score...I don't remeber it now, but I know it was like a persentage of everything but wis...maybe: 30% Str, 10% Con 5% Dex and 5% Int...with the other 50% being cha....

so lets take the default array: 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10
dragon born...
16 str
11 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
13 Wis
18 Cha

1/2 18 = 9
.3 x 16= 4.8
.1 x 12= 1.2
.05 x 10= .5
.05 x 11= .55

16.05 so round down to 16 appearance....

then he had modfires for inter racal...most races outside of there own race had a -4...elves for some reason (I realy don't remeber why) had only a -2 outside of there race, and half elf counted as human and elf....

all it really did was give us an idea how attractive people where...

in 3e we had a bunch of feats we made up based on Mutants and Masterminds "Attractive Appearance"

now adays we normaly leave it to Player discption...but who knows...what ever works right...
#14
salla
Jan 31, 2009 21:07:10 Your character looks like whatever you want it to look like. BAM Comeliness whatever you what. If you want to enumerate it, knock yourself out.

Comeliness in UA was especially broken since a high score gave you a good chance of Fascinating (can't remember what the spell did exactly, but it was basically a slightly weaker charm person) anybody of the appropriate race and sex on sight. Colossally stupid.
#15
che_dup
Feb 01, 2009 0:45:57 I personally wouldn't mind seeing it come back as a feat, if only as an homage to the old-skool stat. Something along the lines of...

Comliness
Prerequisite: Charisma 14
You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, and Thievery against targets normally attracted to your sex and species.
#16
pigknight
Feb 01, 2009 23:07:56 I'd go with 15 Cha.
#17
rikiji
Feb 01, 2009 23:15:19 I don't see Comliness coming back as a stat. Appearance only gives a few marginal benefits so really works best as a feat as others have suggested.

I probably would not make Charisma as a prerequisite. There are a number of extremely attractive people who frankly have the force of personality of a pancake. I'd probably use a version like Chi suggests but drop the prerequisite and the bonus to Insight. So modified version:

Comeliness
You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Thievery checks against targets normally attracted to your sex and species.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 elfwench Jan 31, 2009 8:57:07	Yes, I know this is reaching back to the ancient history of the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, but I miss the Comeliness stat. It could make things... interesting. Yes, I know it could be houseruled. But will Comeliness, or some version of it, ever make a comeback?
#2 brotherjgizmo Jan 31, 2009 9:24:41	Never heard of it, but it could be a feat
#3 Daphnesweets Jan 31, 2009 9:46:31	I never cared for it back then, and don't see the need for it now. I always thought that it was more fluff that you can role play out than needing specific rules for it. I can't see it fitting into the abilities as they are now either. They would have to increase the number of points to build a character with, and other than those few cases where people want that gorgeous appearance, it would be a dump stat, giving them more points to spend on more useful stats.
#4 doctorhook Jan 31, 2009 10:01:20	Anyone willing to explain this concept to those of us who've never heard of it before?
#5 Nyarlathotep Jan 31, 2009 10:14:13	Anyone willing to explain this concept to those of us who've never heard of it before? Back in the days of 1e, in that edition's Unearthed Arcana to be precise, they introduced Comeliness as a 7th stat, representing your appearance. My memory may be way off, but I think it also made a re-appearance in 2e in the infamous Players Option books where they experimented with breaking all of your stats up into two sub-stats and I beleive Comeliness was used as one of the sub-stats of Charisma. I may be worng on that one, though, as my memory of that Gawd-Awful book has faded over time. Personally I didn't see a need for it in 1e and I don't see a need for it in 4e. Your character looks how he looks, no need for a stat for it. Back in 1e days it usually was used as a dump stat, unless the characters were rolled with a 'roll dice in order' system. I suspect that if it DID make a come back in 4e, with its point buy system, you'd see a lot of 8 comeliness characters running around.
#6 ambulacetus Jan 31, 2009 11:00:29	A stat like this could theoretically work in an addition with 1e style stat generation (weather or not it is a good idea is up for debate) because the core assumption in older games was that you rolled 3D6 for each attribute and played them in the order they were rolled. This method does not require the attributes to be equally useful because the value of one attribute had no effect upon the value of the others (for the sake of argument, lets say strength is the most important attribute - that was fine because players had no way to dump other attributes to gain strength). In such a system you can add a large number of situational or flavorful attributes (comeliness is an example, but their are other possibilities - table manners, humor, alcohol tolerance, cooking skill, etc...). Unfortunately, once you allow freedom as simple as letting characters rearrange the dice they rolled, you need to keep the attributes at least situationally balanced (like 4e or 3e - all attributes aren't equal for all characters but at least some characters need a decent score in each attribute). Otherwise players will be better off putting their lowest score in one of the less important attributes or they will weaken their character. As Nyarlathotep said, putting a new attribute in 4e would seriously unbalance the game. Personally, I prefer to leave comeliness and other minor traits as a flavorful character choice, but their is a wee bit of simulationist in me that sees the appeal of randomly or mechanically determining minor character traits. I wouldn't do it in D&D but I have a few homebrew systems trying to accomplish different things I might consider it for. So, if you really want this as a game mechanic I would make a new set of "minor traits" that you generate either randomly or by spending points that are totally separate from primary character resources (attributes, powers, feats, and skills). you could even mix this in with craft skills for those who really want those in their game. i.e. at character creation you roll 3D6 X number of times and arrange for the following: Comeliness, Cooking, Artisan, Humor, Music, etc...
#7 pigknight Jan 31, 2009 11:20:25	Sounds like something out of FATAL.
#8 Nyarlathotep Jan 31, 2009 11:27:10	i.e. at character creation you roll 3D6 X number of times and arrange for the following: Comeliness, Cooking, Artisan, Humor, Music, etc... That sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
#9 Rustmonster Jan 31, 2009 11:31:45	Sounds like something out of FATAL. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Don't... Don't even SAY that... I don't want any chance of ANYTHING in 4E being like FATAL...
#10 Nyarlathotep Jan 31, 2009 11:51:30	Another problem with Comeliness, when I think about it, is that it is too subjective to be really be useful. Comeliness depends a lot on things like one's culture's standards of beauty and even individual preference. An 18 STR is an 18 STR regardless of who is watching me, but my short squat fighter with the bushy red beard might turn the heads of many a dwarven lady but probably couldn't get the time of day from elven ones, and may or may not be to the tstes of his fellow humans. What should his comeliness be? And how about when he goes to deal with something like a lizardman tribe. Would they even notice his comeliness? Should my character notice that the It's just too subjective and narrow to be useful as a full fledged stat. It could be useful as something along the lines of a feat or, better yet, a background, but not as a stat like they did it back in the day.
#11 Tharag_Bocc Jan 31, 2009 14:59:36	Agreed, that there isn't really any place in 4E for comeliness as a stat. Also, while physical attractiveness is usually subjective matter, D&D is a fantasy world and in a fantasy world creature of universal beauty can exist. As example the lady Galadriel from The Lord of the Rings, was said to be an individual of exceptional beauty. Not even the gruff Gimli could resist her eleven grace. As such I could seet beeing something done with with a Feat. Maybe something like...
#12 doctorhook Jan 31, 2009 15:36:06	Toss me into the group that says, "More stats would unbalance the game." It's not that I think it couldn't be balanced, but I think the level of intricacy one would have to pursue to do so would take the system well beyond the complexity that anyone is willing to tolerate resolving in their heads for fun. Electronically, it could work. What I'm leading into here is that I think 4E is probably one of the finest tabletop systems to be made, but that computerized versions of the ruleset could create an equally balanced but more sophisticated game. (The main reason being that computers can easily do complex calculations which most people aren't willing or able to do on-the-fly during a game.)[/tangent]
#13 GMforPowergamers Jan 31, 2009 15:56:17	back in the end of 2e one of our players who was a math wiz created a formula to have an appearance score...I don't remeber it now, but I know it was like a persentage of everything but wis...maybe: 30% Str, 10% Con 5% Dex and 5% Int...with the other 50% being cha.... so lets take the default array: 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 dragon born... 16 str 11 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 18 Cha 1/2 18 = 9 .3 x 16= 4.8 .1 x 12= 1.2 .05 x 10= .5 .05 x 11= .55 16.05 so round down to 16 appearance.... then he had modfires for inter racal...most races outside of there own race had a -4...elves for some reason (I realy don't remeber why) had only a -2 outside of there race, and half elf counted as human and elf.... all it really did was give us an idea how attractive people where... in 3e we had a bunch of feats we made up based on Mutants and Masterminds "Attractive Appearance" now adays we normaly leave it to Player discption...but who knows...what ever works right...
#14 salla Jan 31, 2009 21:07:10	Your character looks like whatever you want it to look like. BAM Comeliness whatever you what. If you want to enumerate it, knock yourself out. Comeliness in UA was especially broken since a high score gave you a good chance of Fascinating (can't remember what the spell did exactly, but it was basically a slightly weaker charm person) anybody of the appropriate race and sex on sight. Colossally stupid.
#15 che_dup Feb 01, 2009 0:45:57	I personally wouldn't mind seeing it come back as a feat, if only as an homage to the old-skool stat. Something along the lines of... Comliness Prerequisite: Charisma 14 You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, and Thievery against targets normally attracted to your sex and species.
#16 pigknight Feb 01, 2009 23:07:56	I'd go with 15 Cha.
#17 rikiji Feb 01, 2009 23:15:19	I don't see Comliness coming back as a stat. Appearance only gives a few marginal benefits so really works best as a feat as others have suggested. I probably would not make Charisma as a prerequisite. There are a number of extremely attractive people who frankly have the force of personality of a pancake. I'd probably use a version like Chi suggests but drop the prerequisite and the bonus to Insight. So modified version: Comeliness You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Thievery checks against targets normally attracted to your sex and species.