I wonder how they would work.
The more mystical ninja takes a bit more work but might be possible with the upcoming monk 'refluffed'. If you like them being full of shadow magic the upcoming DDI-exclusive Assassin class would make a great ninja most likely (it's not out until September so can't say for sure yet how well it'd fit a ninja theme).
Beyond that there may be a ninja class but only if they can make it feel distinctive enough from the other classes. They may make it go the way of the samurai, and be a MC class that you use to reflavor and specialize another class.
This is a summary of things based on posts from WotC devs, articles in Dragon/Dungeon, and my personal interpretations of 4e design goals and 'concept' of ninjas.
I'm not good at creatively making a ninja class, so your suggestions do give me a lot of help.
Rumor is Shadow powersoure might have ninja.
When will that be?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16386782/4E-Ninja-Class-Base-Material
if they have a ninja, it would be in the shadow power source, along with the shadowdancer.
Or in some future oriental-influenced campaign setting.
If you want some more fun, and have access to hybrid rules, a Rogue|Fighter/Swordmage with Eladrin Swordmage Advance in addition to the other feats lets you take another melee basic attack against every square adjacent to where you teleport. If you take the Swordmaster paragon path, you can use a fighter at-will from the PHB instead of an MBA on your charge attack. With this set up, you can also take a powerswap feat to get Giant Size from the swordmage - letting you make 2 attacks per adjacent enemies with ESA, because of the wording on the feat.
So, if poof-flurry of swords-poof-flurry of swords-poof is your kind of ninja, a feycharger should do fine.
EDIT: There are a lot of fighter and swordmage powers that can be substituted for MBAs on a charge, as well, so you can use some encounter powers. If you can't use hybrid material, or don't want to take Swordmaster, Daring Acrobat is a rogue PP from Martial Power that has a bunch of fun charge-related stuff.
Rogues also have a lot of cool stealth and mobility powers, including the fantastic Hide in Plain Sight. HiPS lets you remain invisible as long as you don't willingly move (push and pull don't end it), even if you attack. Oh, and it's an encounter power. If you want a sniper-type ninja, who sets up on a rooftop and launches a barrage of shuriken from the shadows, HiPS and rogue powers are your friend. A Half-Elf or Revenant with Dilettante and Versatile Master, or a hybrid Ranger|Rogue lets you nab twin strike as an at-will. There is a throwing-based rogue path from MP, but it's overshadowed by the ranger PP Avalanche Hurler.
I also would like to see a Swashbuckler and samurai
When will that be?
The Assassin is coming in September, but you will have to have a DDi subscription to get it.
if they have a ninja, it would be in the shadow power source, along with the shadowdancer.
I would hope that these two are one and the same.
The Assassin isn't a replacement for the Ninja nor is it the class for the shadow striker "slot." It is fan service for the DDi suckers.
I'm assuming the Assassin class will be the closest thing we get to a "Ninja". With that, the rogue, and the avenger... ninja starts becoming redundant.
I'm inclined to agree. A Shadow-powered assassin covers everything I think most people expect ninjas to do without having the cultural baggage of the word ninja.
I would hope that these two are one and the same.
The Assassin isn't a replacement for the Ninja nor is it the class for the shadow striker "slot." It is fan service for the DDi suckers.
The ninja and shadowdancer will almost certainly be Assassin builds or PPs. It is a shadow striker, just like Rogue is a martial striker. And DDi suckers? Really thax? Resorting to insults now? How mature.
The ninja and shadowdancer will almost certainly be Assassin builds or PPs. It is a shadow striker, just like Rogue is a martial striker. And DDi suckers? Really thax? Resorting to insults now? How mature.
ummmm.... no the assassin that is ddi trash, will be a striker for shadow, yes, however it may not be the shadowdancer or ninja that end up as shadow PP for it.
they said the assassin would be exclusive to the ddi, which means you have to end up buying a subscription to get.
and if you dont have one by choice or other reasons means no assassin shadow striker for you.
anyway assuming the shadow source ends up in a splatbook, along with elemental powersource it will get another shadow strike along with a shadow defender, a shadow controller etc....
on the otherhand, I'm going to laugh if they put two psi strikers and have the ninja as the 2nd psi striker.
bottom line of all things: whats available at the game table.
and all that I bid you a good day, and if you dont have a good day, its your own fault.
Ninjas are already in 4th. You just can't SEE them. They're ninjas!
They've cleverly disguised themselves as Rogues, you see.
But you need a special secret technique to see it.
Actually the ninja class is written in invisible ink in the page borders of the PHB1. In ninja code!
But you need a special secret technique to see it.
ninja's abilities in previous editions,w ell atleast 3.5 only had illusions, you see something that isnt so.
they may end up as a psi.
illusion does not equal shadow.
I'm inclined to agree. A Shadow-powered assassin covers everything I think most people expect ninjas to do without having the cultural baggage of the word ninja.
Well the way I look at it is that there are three ideas for ninjas that exist; the historical ninja, "one with the shadows ninja", and the mystical ninja. Historical ninja can be done with the rogue. The "one with the shadows ninja" should be covered by the assassin. That still leaves the mystical ninja, but I don't know if there would really be any traction for a mystical ninja. *shrugs*
The ninja and shadowdancer will almost certainly be Assassin builds or PPs. It is a shadow striker, just like Rogue is a martial striker. And DDi suckers? Really thax? Resorting to insults now? How mature.
1- The Shadowdancer has more structure and defined powers that a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny will not cover. It will be a major part of a class, or a stand alone class that is renamed. Assassin should not be that class. If this sort of thing was what the Shadwodancer was gonna be like, it would have been with the Rogue in the first PHB.
2- There is no ----ing grid. Strikers, Defenders, or whatever, I talk of a class. I don't care about the designing background for the class. By my count, there is more strikers than any other of the four Roles, and few Controllers. Yes, there will be at least two Shadow Strikers, or more.
3- The name is thaX.
4- DDi. It is a service that has a few good electronic aids and a lot of self advertising for future products. It is not as it is advertised, and in my opinion, not worth the monthly fee (which is going up) that is being charged for it. The new SoL license tries to take away the ability for other good companies to make Character Generators or DM aids for the computer to use with this edition. It frustrates me to no end.
-=I ask wizards again, where is the stand alone character generator to take the place of the yank off the market E-Tools? Character Builder is not it. =-
I'm inclined to agree. A Shadow-powered assassin covers everything I think most people expect ninjas to do without having the cultural baggage of the word ninja.
True enough. It just comes with moral baggage instead.
Seriously though, I don't have any real problem if the assassin turns out to be the ninja by another name (even if I don't agree with the choice of naming). However, I'm not going to write off the idea that their will actually be a class named ninja as well until after I've seen for my self that the assassin actually makes it redundant.
AzurePirate666 wants his cliché back.
Well the way I look at it is that there are three ideas for ninjas that exist; the historical ninja, "one with the shadows ninja", and the mystical ninja. Historical ninja can be done with the rogue. The "one with the shadows ninja" should be covered by the assassin. That still leaves the mystical ninja, but I don't know if there would really be any traction for a mystical ninja. *shrugs*
'One with the shadows' and 'mystical' are synonymous to me, so I only see two.
of course, I don't even think you need a rogue to be a 'historical' ninja, just trained and skill focus in Intimidate. The reason nobody ever saw one was because they'd threaten to kill any observer's family if they admitted they saw anybody.
'One with the shadows' and 'mystical' are synonymous to me, so I only see two.
of course, I don't even think you need a rogue to be a 'historical' ninja, just trained and skill focus in Intimidate. The reason nobody ever saw one was because they'd threaten to kill any observer's family if they admitted they saw anybody.
When I say "mystical ninja" I mean ninjas who summon frogs and throw lighnting bolts. Folklore ninja.....Naruto ninja.:P
When I say "mystical ninja" I mean ninjas who summon frogs and throw lighnting bolts. Folklore ninja.....Naruto ninja.:P
Naruto style ninja would most likely be best done with a hybrid of the monk and a summoner class. I believe druids would be a good choice as Dragon release summon powers for them.
I also think they're more likely to go Naruto-style than do the classic sneaking shadow ninja. The latter would have to find its space in ground already pretty well staked out by the rogue, monk and upcoming assassin classes. A Naruto ninja would give them a chance to flesh out an as yet unused class archetype: the summoning striker.
When I say "mystical ninja" I mean ninjas who summon frogs and throw lighnting bolts. Folklore ninja.....Naruto ninja.:P
pardon me while I do some research on the subject, as I don't know what a 'Naruto' is.
*elevator muzak*
And back.
Those guys look like Multiclassed or Hybridized Monks to me, were I to make a call.
and don't forget the classic ninja powers: the vanish (usually used in conjunction with a substitution technique or a whirlwind of dead leaves or even a smoke cloud) and the multiplication techniques (illusion and conjurations all in one I'd say).
Off course a lot of that can be achieved with the right mix of Rogue and feylock (or feylock-like) powers... though to see them all in one class might be interesting.
I sure would like an Elemental ninja just to see what the devs can come up with.
What about a water walking ninja? Where would that fit?
Water Walk ritual.
When I say "mystical ninja" I mean ninjas who summon frogs and throw lighnting bolts. Folklore ninja.....Naruto ninja.:P
Personally I would describe those as "magical ninja". The distinction might be arbitrary, but it's how my mind works.
- Realist Ninja: Martial, and is covered quite well by the rogue.
- Mystical Ninja: Shadow, and might be covered by the assassin.
- Magical Ninja: Arcane/elemental, is not yet coved by any single class.
pardon me while I do some research on the subject, as I don't know what a 'Naruto' is.
*elevator muzak*
And back.
Those guys look like Multiclassed or Hybridized Monks to me, were I to make a call.
Yep. A MC Monk/Rogue with a weapon proficiency of an exotic ranged dagger called a Kunai covers a LOT of the Naruto flavor of ninja, but I think the ninja that most players that want to see one is pretty much that with some encounter illusions and/or conjurations. Maybe when PHB3 comes out add back in the Exotic Weapon Type from older editions and make the proficiency bonus a +1 but with a size increase to the damage dice similar weapons would have. Another interesting weapon that might be relevant might be the nunchaku, sais, chakrum, nodachi and odachi, the naginata, the wakizashi, the compound bow and the throwing dart.
Water Walk ritual.
I'd also see an encounter utility. Not sure how it would be worded though. Could also be used to walk on walls or up a tree!
Yep. A MC Monk/Rogue with a weapon proficiency of an exotic ranged dagger called a Kunai covers a LOT of the Naruto flavor of ninja, but I think the ninja that most players that want to see one is pretty much that with some encounter illusions and/or conjurations. Maybe when PHB3 comes out add back in the Exotic Weapon Type from older editions and make the proficiency bonus a +1 but with a size increase to the damage dice similar weapons would have. Another interesting weapon that might be relevant might be the nunchaku, sais, chakrum, nodachi and odachi, the naginata, the wakizashi, the compound bow and the throwing dart.
I don't think we need stats for all those weapons. A kunai is just a dagger, nunchaku are flails, sai are parrying daggers, nodachi's a greatsword, naginata's a glaive, wakizashi's a short sword, a compound bow is a bow, and a throwing dart is a shuriken. Just change the fluff.
I don't think we need stats for all those weapons. A kunai is just a dagger, nunchaku are flails, sai are parrying daggers, nodachi's a greatsword, naginata's a glaive, wakizashi's a short sword, a compound bow is a bow, and a throwing dart is a shuriken. Just change the fluff.
My point was that exotic weapons were not in 4th ed yet and that if a ninja DOES come along in 4th, it is possible, if not probable, that exotics would be introduced at the same time, unless the intention was to eliminate exotic weapons in general. I do see the point about the throwing dart, however, since the shuriken does 1d4, unless you were to say that ranged ammunition cannot be magic items in 4th, which may or may not be the case... Additionally, while you are correct about the exotic weapons that I mentioned, the difference in the weapons I listed and the ones you listed are properties that exist in real life that have translations in D&D. For instance, the wakizashi is a short sword, it, and the tachi, are designed for their efficient killing of a foe which can translate into the BRUTAL property...
I don't think we need stats for all those weapons. A kunai is just a dagger, nunchaku are flails, sai are parrying daggers, nodachi's a greatsword, naginata's a glaive, wakizashi's a short sword, a compound bow is a bow, and a throwing dart is a shuriken. Just change the fluff.
I'd be willing to agree with all of that except for the nunchaku. No doubt it would most likely be part of the flail group, but I think it's sufficiently unique as to receive its own stats.
Adventurer's Vault 2 will also have enchanted ammunition.
Exotic weapons were replaced by Superior weapons.
A brutal light blade? Isn't that the Khukri's schtick's?
Shurikens are not ammunition. They are light thrown weapon. They can be enchanted and when enchanted return when thrown automatically.
Adventurer's Vault 2 will also have enchanted ammunition.
Exotic weapons were replaced by Superior weapons.
A brutal light blade? Isn't that the Khukri's schtick's?
I think the Kukri is high crit, not brutal.
At any rate, I'm mostly opposing the 'Japanese Weapon Superiority' nonsense that a lot of people have. A sword is a sword is a sword, whether you call it a longsword or a katana.
I sure hope they make Ninja a player class in 4th!
I wonder how they would work.
Like **** is how they would work!
I hope in all that is unwholesome and evil that WotC never puts Ninjas in 4e.
I'd also see an encounter utility. Not sure how it would be worded though. Could also be used to walk on walls or up a tree!
For the water walking, you can get lvl 4 wavestrider boots for partial waterwalking(must start and end movement on solid ground or fall in) or lvl 14 oceanstrider boots for permanent waterwalking.
As for the tree climbing... there is the monks lvl 10 at will utility, spider technique, that lets you walk on ceilings and vertical surfaces but you have to end your movement on the ground or a vertical surface.
I think the Kukri is high crit, not brutal.
I checked. Brutal 1, Off hand.
For instance, the wakizashi is a short sword, it, and the tachi, are designed for their efficient killing of a foe
Umm... Aren't most weapons designed for that purpose?
At any rate, I'm mostly opposing the 'Japanese Weapon Superiority' nonsense that a lot of people have. A sword is a sword is a sword, whether you call it a longsword or a katana.
While I completely agree with you about 'Japanese Weapon Superiority' being nonsense, there is a significant difference in how easily a blade cuts depending on whether it is curved or not.
A katana (or a scimitar, for that matter) really does cut more easily than a European-style straight-bladed sword for a given amount of applied force. The drawback, of course, is that a curved single-edged blade is slightly less versatile than a straight blade, since you can only cut with one edge and it is less easy to deliver an effective thrust with a curved blade.
The 4th edition rules get this just about right with the differences between longswords and scimitars, IMO (i.e. a curved blade gives you high crit at the cost of -1 proficiency). The scimitar can't really cover katanas, though, without the versatile property.
The 4th edition rules get this just about right with the differences between longswords and scimitars, IMO (i.e. a curved blade gives you high crit at the cost of -1 proficiency). The scimitar can't really cover katanas, though, without the versatile property.
So something like the Talenta Tangat from Eberron? +2 Prof, 1d8, High Crit and Versatile (and Small, except not Small, but with all the same benefits as having the Small keyword).
Or I guess, I non-"Small" version of the Tangat.
ninja, thats a profession.
cool music themes and all.....
yeah okay I'm partially bsing
1- The Shadowdancer has more structure and defined powers that a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny will not cover. It will be a major part of a class, or a stand alone class that is renamed. Assassin should not be that class. If this sort of thing was what the Shadwodancer was gonna be like, it would have been with the Rogue in the first PHB.
I really can't wait to see your reaction if/when the Shadowdancer is revealed as being part of the Assassin. And no, it really doesn't have more structure or defined powers than a Paragon Path. At all.
2- There is no ----ing grid. Strikers, Defenders, or whatever, I talk of a class. I don't care about the designing background for the class. By my count, there is more strikers than any other of the four Roles, and few Controllers. Yes, there will be at least two Shadow Strikers, or more.
Yeah .... that was my point mister grouchy pants.
3- The name is thaX.
Ok.
4- DDi. It is a service that has a few good electronic aids and a lot of self advertising for future products. It is not as it is advertised, and in my opinion, not worth the monthly fee (which is going up) that is being charged for it. The new SoL license tries to take away the ability for other good companies to make Character Generators or DM aids for the computer to use with this edition. It frustrates me to no end.
It doesn't excuse the fact that you insulted everyone that is a subscriber for being a subscriber.
-=I ask wizards again, where is the stand alone character generator to take the place of the yank off the market E-Tools? Character Builder is not it. =-
Yeah, it really is.
At any rate, I'm mostly opposing the 'Japanese Weapon Superiority' nonsense that a lot of people have. A sword is a sword is a sword, whether you call it a longsword or a katana.
Bastard Sword. Or at least, the 3e katana was just a renamed bastard sword.
- Magical Ninja: Arcane/elemental, is not yet coved by any single class.
I'm telling you, Swordmage|Warlock with uber teleports. ;)
•Magical Ninja: Arcane/elemental, is not yet coved by any single class.
I'm telling you, Swordmage|Warlock with uber teleports. ;)
That is indeed a reasonably effective hybrid, but it is not a single class, so my point still stands.
That is indeed a reasonably effective hybrid, but it is not a single class, so my point still stands.
yeah, yeah... <_<
you and your logic.
So something like the Talenta Tangat from Eberron?
A katana probably shouldn't weigh eight pounds. But, other than that, sure.
I see the Shadowdancer as the shadow striker as opposed to the Assassin which will be the auxiliary shadow striker by virtue of being a DDi exclusive class. Ninja might be a Shadowdancer PP.
Bel
The Assassin killed the Ninja and disposed of the body.
I see the Shadowdancer as the shadow striker as opposed to the Assassin which will be the auxiliary shadow striker by virtue of being a DDi exclusive class. Ninja might be a Shadowdancer PP.
Bel
I tend to think the opposite ... the Shadowdancer would be an assassin and ninja(or perhaps just general shadow) PP. It seems more specific to me than a base class. Ultimately, we'll just have to wait and see.
He's going with a Hybrid Rogue/Feylock. From what I've heard of it so far it's sounding pretty sweet.
Yep. A MC Monk/Rogue with a weapon proficiency of an exotic ranged dagger called a Kunai covers a LOT of the Naruto flavor of ninja, but I think the ninja that most players that want to see one is pretty much that with some encounter illusions and/or conjurations. Maybe when PHB3 comes out add back in the Exotic Weapon Type from older editions and make the proficiency bonus a +1 but with a size increase to the damage dice similar weapons would have. Another interesting weapon that might be relevant might be the nunchaku, sais, chakrum, nodachi and odachi, the naginata, the wakizashi, the compound bow and the throwing dart.
Actually, you'd probably want a Hybrid Monk/Rogue and also take Sorcerer or Wizard multi-class feats (Sorcerer would be far more optimal)
The Assassin killed the Ninja and disposed of the body.
I see the Shadowdancer as the shadow striker as opposed to the Assassin which will be the auxiliary shadow striker by virtue of being a DDi exclusive class. Ninja might be a Shadowdancer PP.
Bel
I believe the name "Shadowdancer" is something that will stay within the pages of 3rd edition. This is one of the reasons I think the Ninja will absorb the Shadowdancer rather than have a PP for either the Assassin or the Ninja (or both). Some of the powers may be use by the Illusionist, what I think will be this edition's version of the Shadowcaster.