Will the Essential books give optional ability scores to the classic races? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Will the Essential books give optional ability scores to the classic races?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Haldrik
May 05, 2010 23:08:09 Will the Essential books give optional ability scores to the popular races?

The latest books (PH3, Dark Sun, etcetera) let the player choose what the racial ability score boosts will be for their character. For example, the Githzerai race can choose either Wisdom-and-Dexterity or else Wisdom-and-Intelligence for the +2 to the ability scores.

There is much speculation about whether the developers will retroactively give similar optional ability scores to the 'classic' races, namely the ones already published in the PH1 and PH2. For example, a common prediction is the Elf will get to choose between the current Dexterity-and-Wisdom and a new Dexterity-and-Strength.

In the product catalog description, I just noticed the wording for the coming-soon book, Players Essentials: Heroes Of The Fallen Lands, which is part of the Essential (singular) series. It says:

"In addition to new builds, this book presents expanded information and racial traits for some of the game’s most popular races, including dwarves, eladrin, elves, halflings, and humans."

Altho ambiguous, the wording can even be read to explicitly say, the book presents "expanded information" and "expanded racial traits" for these races. In any case, these Essential racial traits arent necessarily identical to the PH1 racial traits, and may include new racial ability scores.

There are two Player Essentials books. Inferrably, these can serve as the vectors by which the developers retroactively introduce the new optional racial ability scores. Indeed, the D&DI Character Builder will include the new Player Essentials content as part of its many 4e options.

The first book, Of The Fallen Lands, will add new information about the Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Halfling, and Human. The second book, Of The Forgotten Kingdom, will add new information about the Dragonborn, Drow, Elf, Half-Orc, and Tiefling.

Of the already published races, only the Deva, Genasi, Gnome, Goliath, Kalashtar, and Warforged are missing from the list. But the books may even have racial trait entries for these races, since these may be part of a larger number of races that is only "including" those races that got listed as examples. The Changeling already has optional racial abilites, Cha-Dex/Int. And the Shifter already has them too, well sort of, Wis-Dex/Str.

Does the product catalog description hint at "racial traits" that include optional ability scores?
#2
greatfrito
May 06, 2010 0:39:32 I've been assuming that, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen there.
#3
celticmutt
May 06, 2010 1:17:54 You forgot the Kalashtar.
#4
Haldrik
May 06, 2010 10:00:25 Added.
#5
laredric
May 07, 2010 13:48:28 If the essentials line exists to bring new players into D&D (which is a good goal) WoC really doesn't want to issue much (if any) errata to the essentials books. If there is no change to scores in essentials, it is never going to happen
#6
ah_stormbringer
May 08, 2010 4:20:16 I would diagree Laredric I think we will see them and it may not be in the essentials line. I think it will come just before that line of books drops so that established players get to see it before the line drops and will include all races without a variable stat.
#7
Haldrik
Jun 07, 2010 11:45:58 There are hints, the WotC designers are about to grant the classic races 'flexible abilities'. Previously, designers added Wisdom gratuitously to the Constitution and Charisma of a Half-Elf racial feat. This seemed to confirm speculation, the Half-Elf would become a Cha-Con/Wis race (that is, would allow a choice of either Cha-Wis or Cha-Con).

More designer introjection of Wisdom into the Half-Elf race appears here. Unfortunately, in this case, the optimization is so poor at other points (a Con-Cha Half-Elf for a Dex-Str Ranger), the evidence cant really demonstrate the streamlining of class-race abilities. Nevertheless, it does explicitly recommend the Half-Elf race for a Dragonmark feat that 'emphasizes' Wisdom - via the Perception skill. This Dragonmark of Detection feat expresses divination flavor, allowing a character to roll twice for every Perception check, and to gain mastery of divination and other perceptive rituals, and even to gain the Detect Magic Arcana skill, while rolling Perception instead. Given a high Wisdom ability score, this skill becomes attractive, even tho it doesnt buff combat directly.

So, another Dragon article came out associating the Half-Elf race with the Wisdom ability. In his article about Eberron Dragonmarks, The Heirs Of [Draconic] Prophecy, the designer Wyatt writes:

"These characters are the most iconic dragonmarked ones, and they embody what their mark - and their house, if applicable - is all about. They typically choose a class that allows them to make the most out of their dragonmark feat and suits them for the paragon path associated with their mark. This section summarizes the race and class choice that is most iconic for characters with each dragonmark.

[Dragon] Mark of Detection: Half-elf ranger. Choose the Archer Fighting Style and ranged powers to make the best use of your paragon path benefits, and emphasize Perception and feats that improve your ranged attacks.
"

The designer explicitly says, dragonmarked characters will tend to 'choose a class that allows them to make the most out of their dragonmark', in other words, will tend to OPTIMIZE the class choice to mechanically synergize with their dragonmark. This is the ingame pretext. Outgame the reality is, players tend to prioritize their choice of class, and choose whatever race gets the most out of their class, and spend a feat on a dragonmark, if and only if, it is convenient for their class. Still, the designer presents the Archer Ranger class, and the Half-Elf race as the best choice possible for a dragonmark that emphasizes Perception, a Wisdom skill.

Of course, the Con-Cha Half-Elf race is terribly suboptimal choice for the Dex-Str Archer Ranger class. Their race and class abilities fail to synergize in any way, thus cant be ever be an 'iconic' combination ... because most informed gamers will never choose to play this 'icon'. Having a relatively clumbsy weak Half-Elf play a Ranger might be interesting to 'play against type', but it will never be an iconic type.

Nevertheless, the Archer Ranger benefits somewhat from its auxillary key ability, Wisdom. Likewise, the Perception skill benefits from Wisdom. Here the Half-Elf is the iconic choice for a dragonmarked character that specializes in Perception.

Notice, the Dex-Wis Elf doesnt appear, who is famously the icon for Dexterous Archer combat and Wise Perception racial mechanics. Rather, the Con-Cha Half-Elf appears. The choice is inexplicable unless the Half-Elf somehow has Wisdom as a racial ability, and somehow personifies 'Perception'.

If the Half-Elf becomes a Cha-Wis/Con race, it will probably gain Wisdom to personify the *Insight* skill, to intuit peoples emotions and intreagues, so as to become - mechanically - the quintessential social race. But here, the Eberron campaign setting reuses Core mechanics in surprising ways, thus the Eberron designer reuses the Half-Elfs Wisdom for the Perception skill, and perceptive (dragonmark divination) flavor.
#8
Axiomatic_Badger
Jun 07, 2010 13:13:55 Quick note: In eberron fluff Half-Elves are the only race that can take the Mark of Detection.
#9
Haldrik
Jun 07, 2010 15:14:41 I know but apparently there are new mechanics (possibly the Half-Elf gets Wisdom as a choice of racial abilities) to make this dragonmark a mechanically viable option.

Otherwise it seems incompetent for a designer to recommend a Ranger as the most mechanically optimal choice out of all the classes, for a character who specializes in Perception.

A Laser Cleric, for example, would be a far better choice for a class. The Laser Cleric wields ranged attacks and can focus available resources efficently to improve Wisdom to simultaneously boost both the class attack ability and the Perception skill. In other words, the Laser Cleric doesnt waste pointbuy investments on multiple ability dependence (MAD). Meanwhile, the Laser Cleric actually benefits from the Half-Elf racial ability, Charisma.

In addition to Laser Cleric, the Seeker would be another good choice for a character who specializes in the Perception skill and ranged attacks. Again, the Seeker could invest simultaneously in both the class attack ability and the Perception skill by investing in Wisdom. But it couldnt benefit from either the Charimsa or the Constitution of the Half Elf racial abilities.

A Ranger would suffer from MADness and need to squander its investments across Dexterity AND Strength AND Wisdom, failing at everything, and lacking any assistance from the Half-Elf racial abilities, Charisma or Constitution.

The point of the article is to 'choose the class that gets the most out of' Perception.

Ranger is simply inexplicable.

... Unless the designer knows something about the Half-Elf that we dont.

Even tho the Cleric and Seeker are even better class choices if the Half-Elf gets Wisdom as a racial ability, the only way Ranger could even be conceivable is if it happens to benefit from racial Wisdom that gives the Perception skill a fighting chance while competing with Dexterity and Strength.
#10
Haldrik
Jul 09, 2010 2:07:26 BINGO! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!

Here is Mike Mearls talking about the Essentials line:

'The only changes we embraced [when designing the Essentials line] were ones we would have implemented even if not producing the Essentials products. That’s why things like the new approach to racial stat modifiers [had already] appeared in Player’s Handbook 3, and the higher monster damage appeared in Monster Manual 3. Regardless of the directions the Essentials products took, we wanted to implement these new approaches in the game [anyway].'

Presuming these racial 'stat' modifiers refer to the 'ability score' bonuses, the Essentials line will give the classic races 'flex abs' (flexible abilities).

Thus: Elf, Eladrin, Dwarf, and Halfling. And Drow, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Half-Elf, and Half-Orc will get 'the new approach to racial stat modifiers' that appeared in PH3. Additions to the Human remain unclear.

Excellent!
#11
Vinicius_Zoio
Jul 09, 2010 2:22:33 And will they include that in the next 4e update?

Because simply having the Essential races be improved will lead to "must buy Essentials in order to get the improved basic races" and also, to the obesolescence of the old material.

Sigh, Essentials are getting on my nerves each passing annoucement ¬¬.
#12
Haldrik
Jul 09, 2010 4:40:50 Vinicius: 'And will they include that in the next 4e update?'

I assume no. I assume theyl handle the new options the same way they handle all new material. Add it to the Compendium and Character Builder. They cite the source books where the options come from. In this case, Essentials: Heroes of.
#13
celticmutt
Jul 09, 2010 6:39:42 Unfortunate. The pre-PHB3 races didn't need "stat versatility."

Though technically, that's not confirmation. Extremely heavy implication, but not confirmation.
#14
mellored
Jul 09, 2010 7:00:26
And will they include that in the next 4e update?

I assume yes, since it's a change, much the way they changed the tielfings racial. However you'll still need to pick up the book for new feats and the new "no daily" alternitive class(?) features.

Or, just use DDI.
#15
Vinicius_Zoio
Jul 09, 2010 15:42:41 Let's see how things will turn out. As I've said, I don't mind the updates, but some of the fundamental changes to the rules should be added to the update process...
#16
makeshiftwings
Jul 09, 2010 17:43:38
Unfortunate. The pre-PHB3 races didn't need "stat versatility."

Though technically, that's not confirmation. Extremely heavy implication, but not confirmation.

None of the races "need" versatility. But all of them certainly could use it!

It irks me that they (probably) decided to give the Half-Elf Wisdom as his third stat though. Why not Dex? Half-elves in fluff and in previous versions were all supposed to be, well, a cross between an elf and a human, meaning they should inherit some elven abilities... Half-elves used to be prime candidates for rangers and rogues... instead they were more geared toward Infernal Warlocks and Paladins for some reason, and now they'll make good Battleminds and Warpriests. Meh, I guess, it just doesn't fit my image of Half-Elves.
#17
celticmutt
Jul 09, 2010 18:17:41 Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom.

Frankly, if they are getting Wis, I will be very irritated if it's Cha +Con/Wis. It should be Con +Cha/Wis, because:

1) It'll keep the variable stat's Def bonus the same, like what happened with Githzerai and Changelings

2) Wis + Cha is not an iconic Druid, Con + Wis is

3) It'll make them the race for Battleminds, who need more support
#18
Haldrik
Jul 09, 2010 18:23:13 Makeshift: 'It irks me that they (probably) decided to give the Half-Elf Wisdom as his third stat though.'

Wis as the optional ability for the Half-Elf: I can support the design decision. Wis links the Half-Elf closer to the Elven side of the parentage. Appropriate enough.

Also, if the Half-Elf is the quintessential socail race, then Wis excels at the Insight skill. So, the race is mechanically optimal at all the social skills, Cha and Wis. Flavorwise, they become both Charismatically pursuasive and empathetically intuitive. Superlative diplomats and artists.

Potentially, Wis could tap into the flavor of otherworldly magical intuition, that having 'elven' or 'fey' ancestry sometimes inherits. Tho Cha already works well here too.

All in all, Wisdom for Half-Elves is a reasonable decision. Even a good one.
#19
salla
Jul 09, 2010 18:47:00
Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom.

Okay, Bard I get, but I've never seen anything rendering the half-elf as an 'iconic' Druid. That always seemed like more of a pure Elf thing to me.
#20
makeshiftwings
Jul 09, 2010 19:51:50
Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom.

Eh, back in my day, sonny, Half-elves were quintissential rangers! (/oldmanvoice)

For 1e, 2e, and 3.0e, Half-elves were loner types torn between two worlds and rejected by both, and they basically had half the traits of elves with some of the versatility of humans. Tanis from Dragonlance was to half-elves what Drizzt was to drow.

It wasn't until 3.5e with some help from Eberron that half-elves changed to be charismatic diplomats and bards that everyone liked... in 3.5e it wasn't that different though because they still were perfectly fine at their old classes like ranger or rogue. 4e did pretty much cement that they're now nothing at all like elves, and are all about charisma and diplomacy instead.. but I was hoping when we got tertiary stats they'd bring a little of the old vibe back in so you could make a half-decent ranger.
#21
celticmutt
Jul 10, 2010 5:21:10 ... Back in your day? My first DnD book was the 1e player's guide. And I read all of the Dragonlance books up until the 5th Age. So I know damn well who and what Tanis was. Half-elven Bards is not even close to being a 3.5e invention.

And in 1e and 2e, Half-elves were the only race other than human that could be a Bard or Druid (until Planescape and the Complete Book of Humanoids anyways), and until WotC decided to turn Gnomes into the quintessential Bard, class portraits for Bards and Druids were Half-elves or humans. In 1e
Half-elves were the only race other than Human that could advance to an unlimited level in a class, and that was Druid (and by extension Bard), and in 2e they were the only non-human race outside of Dark Sun that could advance to an unlimited level in a class - unfortuantely only Bard, not Druid. But again, the only non-human race that could take Druid.

That's pretty damn iconic.

And again, while the Diplomacy skill is based on Charisma, actual diplomacy, empathy, and the Insight and Perception skills (also Half-elf hallmarks) are all based on wisdom as well as charisma (or Wisdom in the case of Perception and Insight).

Okay, Bard I get, but I've never seen anything rendering the half-elf as an 'iconic' Druid. That always seemed like more of a pure Elf thing to me.

See above. Plus, the signature Druid character for 3e/3.5e was a half-elf, and she's been used in some 4e art, including some of the Druid art in PHB2.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Haldrik May 05, 2010 23:08:09	Will the Essential books give optional ability scores to the popular races? The latest books (PH3, Dark Sun, etcetera) let the player choose what the racial ability score boosts will be for their character. For example, the Githzerai race can choose either Wisdom-and-Dexterity or else Wisdom-and-Intelligence for the +2 to the ability scores. There is much speculation about whether the developers will retroactively give similar optional ability scores to the 'classic' races, namely the ones already published in the PH1 and PH2. For example, a common prediction is the Elf will get to choose between the current Dexterity-and-Wisdom and a new Dexterity-and-Strength. In the product catalog description, I just noticed the wording for the coming-soon book, Players Essentials: Heroes Of The Fallen Lands, which is part of the Essential (singular) series. It says: "In addition to new builds, this book presents expanded information and racial traits for some of the game’s most popular races, including dwarves, eladrin, elves, halflings, and humans." Altho ambiguous, the wording can even be read to explicitly say, the book presents "expanded information" and "expanded racial traits" for these races. In any case, these Essential racial traits arent necessarily identical to the PH1 racial traits, and may include new racial ability scores. There are two Player Essentials books. Inferrably, these can serve as the vectors by which the developers retroactively introduce the new optional racial ability scores. Indeed, the D&DI Character Builder will include the new Player Essentials content as part of its many 4e options. The first book, Of The Fallen Lands, will add new information about the Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Halfling, and Human. The second book, Of The Forgotten Kingdom, will add new information about the Dragonborn, Drow, Elf, Half-Orc, and Tiefling. Of the already published races, only the Deva, Genasi, Gnome, Goliath, Kalashtar, and Warforged are missing from the list. But the books may even have racial trait entries for these races, since these may be part of a larger number of races that is only "including" those races that got listed as examples. The Changeling already has optional racial abilites, Cha-Dex/Int. And the Shifter already has them too, well sort of, Wis-Dex/Str. Does the product catalog description hint at "racial traits" that include optional ability scores?
#2 greatfrito May 06, 2010 0:39:32	I've been assuming that, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen there.
#3 celticmutt May 06, 2010 1:17:54	You forgot the Kalashtar.
#4 Haldrik May 06, 2010 10:00:25	Added.
#5 laredric May 07, 2010 13:48:28	If the essentials line exists to bring new players into D&D (which is a good goal) WoC really doesn't want to issue much (if any) errata to the essentials books. If there is no change to scores in essentials, it is never going to happen
#6 ah_stormbringer May 08, 2010 4:20:16	I would diagree Laredric I think we will see them and it may not be in the essentials line. I think it will come just before that line of books drops so that established players get to see it before the line drops and will include all races without a variable stat.
#7 Haldrik Jun 07, 2010 11:45:58	There are hints, the WotC designers are about to grant the classic races 'flexible abilities'. Previously, designers added Wisdom gratuitously to the Constitution and Charisma of a Half-Elf racial feat. This seemed to confirm speculation, the Half-Elf would become a Cha-Con/Wis race (that is, would allow a choice of either Cha-Wis or Cha-Con). More designer introjection of Wisdom into the Half-Elf race appears here. Unfortunately, in this case, the optimization is so poor at other points (a Con-Cha Half-Elf for a Dex-Str Ranger), the evidence cant really demonstrate the streamlining of class-race abilities. Nevertheless, it does explicitly recommend the Half-Elf race for a Dragonmark feat that 'emphasizes' Wisdom - via the Perception skill. This Dragonmark of Detection feat expresses divination flavor, allowing a character to roll twice for every Perception check, and to gain mastery of divination and other perceptive rituals, and even to gain the Detect Magic Arcana skill, while rolling Perception instead. Given a high Wisdom ability score, this skill becomes attractive, even tho it doesnt buff combat directly. So, another Dragon article came out associating the Half-Elf race with the Wisdom ability. In his article about Eberron Dragonmarks, The Heirs Of [Draconic] Prophecy, the designer Wyatt writes: "These characters are the most iconic dragonmarked ones, and they embody what their mark - and their house, if applicable - is all about. They typically choose a class that allows them to make the most out of their dragonmark feat and suits them for the paragon path associated with their mark. This section summarizes the race and class choice that is most iconic for characters with each dragonmark. [Dragon] Mark of Detection: Half-elf ranger. Choose the Archer Fighting Style and ranged powers to make the best use of your paragon path benefits, and emphasize Perception and feats that improve your ranged attacks. " The designer explicitly says, dragonmarked characters will tend to 'choose a class that allows them to make the most out of their dragonmark', in other words, will tend to OPTIMIZE the class choice to mechanically synergize with their dragonmark. This is the ingame pretext. Outgame the reality is, players tend to prioritize their choice of class, and choose whatever race gets the most out of their class, and spend a feat on a dragonmark, if and only if, it is convenient for their class. Still, the designer presents the Archer Ranger class, and the Half-Elf race as the best choice possible for a dragonmark that emphasizes Perception, a Wisdom skill. Of course, the Con-Cha Half-Elf race is terribly suboptimal choice for the Dex-Str Archer Ranger class. Their race and class abilities fail to synergize in any way, thus cant be ever be an 'iconic' combination ... because most informed gamers will never choose to play this 'icon'. Having a relatively clumbsy weak Half-Elf play a Ranger might be interesting to 'play against type', but it will never be an iconic type. Nevertheless, the Archer Ranger benefits somewhat from its auxillary key ability, Wisdom. Likewise, the Perception skill benefits from Wisdom. Here the Half-Elf is the iconic choice for a dragonmarked character that specializes in Perception. Notice, the Dex-Wis Elf doesnt appear, who is famously the icon for Dexterous Archer combat and Wise Perception racial mechanics. Rather, the Con-Cha Half-Elf appears. The choice is inexplicable unless the Half-Elf somehow has Wisdom as a racial ability, and somehow personifies 'Perception'. If the Half-Elf becomes a Cha-Wis/Con race, it will probably gain Wisdom to personify the Insight skill, to intuit peoples emotions and intreagues, so as to become - mechanically - the quintessential social race. But here, the Eberron campaign setting reuses Core mechanics in surprising ways, thus the Eberron designer reuses the Half-Elfs Wisdom for the Perception skill, and perceptive (dragonmark divination) flavor.
#8 Axiomatic_Badger Jun 07, 2010 13:13:55	Quick note: In eberron fluff Half-Elves are the only race that can take the Mark of Detection.
#9 Haldrik Jun 07, 2010 15:14:41	I know but apparently there are new mechanics (possibly the Half-Elf gets Wisdom as a choice of racial abilities) to make this dragonmark a mechanically viable option. Otherwise it seems incompetent for a designer to recommend a Ranger as the most mechanically optimal choice out of all the classes, for a character who specializes in Perception. A Laser Cleric, for example, would be a far better choice for a class. The Laser Cleric wields ranged attacks and can focus available resources efficently to improve Wisdom to simultaneously boost both the class attack ability and the Perception skill. In other words, the Laser Cleric doesnt waste pointbuy investments on multiple ability dependence (MAD). Meanwhile, the Laser Cleric actually benefits from the Half-Elf racial ability, Charisma. In addition to Laser Cleric, the Seeker would be another good choice for a character who specializes in the Perception skill and ranged attacks. Again, the Seeker could invest simultaneously in both the class attack ability and the Perception skill by investing in Wisdom. But it couldnt benefit from either the Charimsa or the Constitution of the Half Elf racial abilities. A Ranger would suffer from MADness and need to squander its investments across Dexterity AND Strength AND Wisdom, failing at everything, and lacking any assistance from the Half-Elf racial abilities, Charisma or Constitution. The point of the article is to 'choose the class that gets the most out of' Perception. Ranger is simply inexplicable. ... Unless the designer knows something about the Half-Elf that we dont. Even tho the Cleric and Seeker are even better class choices if the Half-Elf gets Wisdom as a racial ability, the only way Ranger could even be conceivable is if it happens to benefit from racial Wisdom that gives the Perception skill a fighting chance while competing with Dexterity and Strength.
#10 Haldrik Jul 09, 2010 2:07:26	BINGO! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! Here is Mike Mearls talking about the Essentials line: 'The only changes we embraced [when designing the Essentials line] were ones we would have implemented even if not producing the Essentials products. That’s why things like the new approach to racial stat modifiers [had already] appeared in Player’s Handbook 3, and the higher monster damage appeared in Monster Manual 3. Regardless of the directions the Essentials products took, we wanted to implement these new approaches in the game [anyway].' Presuming these racial 'stat' modifiers refer to the 'ability score' bonuses, the Essentials line will give the classic races 'flex abs' (flexible abilities). Thus: Elf, Eladrin, Dwarf, and Halfling. And Drow, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Half-Elf, and Half-Orc will get 'the new approach to racial stat modifiers' that appeared in PH3. Additions to the Human remain unclear. Excellent!
#11 Vinicius_Zoio Jul 09, 2010 2:22:33	And will they include that in the next 4e update? Because simply having the Essential races be improved will lead to "must buy Essentials in order to get the improved basic races" and also, to the obesolescence of the old material. Sigh, Essentials are getting on my nerves each passing annoucement ¬¬.
#12 Haldrik Jul 09, 2010 4:40:50	Vinicius: 'And will they include that in the next 4e update?' I assume no. I assume theyl handle the new options the same way they handle all new material. Add it to the Compendium and Character Builder. They cite the source books where the options come from. In this case, Essentials: Heroes of.
#13 celticmutt Jul 09, 2010 6:39:42	Unfortunate. The pre-PHB3 races didn't need "stat versatility." Though technically, that's not confirmation. Extremely heavy implication, but not confirmation.
#14 mellored Jul 09, 2010 7:00:26	And will they include that in the next 4e update? I assume yes, since it's a change, much the way they changed the tielfings racial. However you'll still need to pick up the book for new feats and the new "no daily" alternitive class(?) features. Or, just use DDI.
#15 Vinicius_Zoio Jul 09, 2010 15:42:41	Let's see how things will turn out. As I've said, I don't mind the updates, but some of the fundamental changes to the rules should be added to the update process...
#16 makeshiftwings Jul 09, 2010 17:43:38	Unfortunate. The pre-PHB3 races didn't need "stat versatility." Though technically, that's not confirmation. Extremely heavy implication, but not confirmation. None of the races "need" versatility. But all of them certainly could use it! It irks me that they (probably) decided to give the Half-Elf Wisdom as his third stat though. Why not Dex? Half-elves in fluff and in previous versions were all supposed to be, well, a cross between an elf and a human, meaning they should inherit some elven abilities... Half-elves used to be prime candidates for rangers and rogues... instead they were more geared toward Infernal Warlocks and Paladins for some reason, and now they'll make good Battleminds and Warpriests. Meh, I guess, it just doesn't fit my image of Half-Elves.
#17 celticmutt Jul 09, 2010 18:17:41	Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom. Frankly, if they are getting Wis, I will be very irritated if it's Cha +Con/Wis. It should be Con +Cha/Wis, because: 1) It'll keep the variable stat's Def bonus the same, like what happened with Githzerai and Changelings 2) Wis + Cha is not an iconic Druid, Con + Wis is 3) It'll make them the race for Battleminds, who need more support
#18 Haldrik Jul 09, 2010 18:23:13	Makeshift: 'It irks me that they (probably) decided to give the Half-Elf Wisdom as his third stat though.' Wis as the optional ability for the Half-Elf: I can support the design decision. Wis links the Half-Elf closer to the Elven side of the parentage. Appropriate enough. Also, if the Half-Elf is the quintessential socail race, then Wis excels at the Insight skill. So, the race is mechanically optimal at all the social skills, Cha and Wis. Flavorwise, they become both Charismatically pursuasive and empathetically intuitive. Superlative diplomats and artists. Potentially, Wis could tap into the flavor of otherworldly magical intuition, that having 'elven' or 'fey' ancestry sometimes inherits. Tho Cha already works well here too. All in all, Wisdom for Half-Elves is a reasonable decision. Even a good one.
#19 salla Jul 09, 2010 18:47:00	Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom. Okay, Bard I get, but I've never seen anything rendering the half-elf as an 'iconic' Druid. That always seemed like more of a pure Elf thing to me.
#20 makeshiftwings Jul 09, 2010 19:51:50	Because Half-elves are supposed to be the iconic Bards and Druids, and because empathy is one part charisma, one part wisdom. Eh, back in my day, sonny, Half-elves were quintissential rangers! (/oldmanvoice) For 1e, 2e, and 3.0e, Half-elves were loner types torn between two worlds and rejected by both, and they basically had half the traits of elves with some of the versatility of humans. Tanis from Dragonlance was to half-elves what Drizzt was to drow. It wasn't until 3.5e with some help from Eberron that half-elves changed to be charismatic diplomats and bards that everyone liked... in 3.5e it wasn't that different though because they still were perfectly fine at their old classes like ranger or rogue. 4e did pretty much cement that they're now nothing at all like elves, and are all about charisma and diplomacy instead.. but I was hoping when we got tertiary stats they'd bring a little of the old vibe back in so you could make a half-decent ranger.
#21 celticmutt Jul 10, 2010 5:21:10	... Back in your day? My first DnD book was the 1e player's guide. And I read all of the Dragonlance books up until the 5th Age. So I know damn well who and what Tanis was. Half-elven Bards is not even close to being a 3.5e invention. And in 1e and 2e, Half-elves were the only race other than human that could be a Bard or Druid (until Planescape and the Complete Book of Humanoids anyways), and until WotC decided to turn Gnomes into the quintessential Bard, class portraits for Bards and Druids were Half-elves or humans. In 1e Half-elves were the only race other than Human that could advance to an unlimited level in a class, and that was Druid (and by extension Bard), and in 2e they were the only non-human race outside of Dark Sun that could advance to an unlimited level in a class - unfortuantely only Bard, not Druid. But again, the only non-human race that could take Druid. That's pretty damn iconic. And again, while the Diplomacy skill is based on Charisma, actual diplomacy, empathy, and the Insight and Perception skills (also Half-elf hallmarks) are all based on wisdom as well as charisma (or Wisdom in the case of Perception and Insight). Okay, Bard I get, but I've never seen anything rendering the half-elf as an 'iconic' Druid. That always seemed like more of a pure Elf thing to me. See above. Plus, the signature Druid character for 3e/3.5e was a half-elf, and she's been used in some 4e art, including some of the Druid art in PHB2.