WotC, your community is panicking right now. So far, three books have disappeared from your roster (the "Emporium" book, Heroes of Sword and Spell, and Champions of the Heroic Tier). The D&D release library for this year looks very thin. Rampant speculation about the reason why is plaguing the boards. Can someone please come let us know what is going on.
I'll second this!
also th silence really hurts even if it is something bad like a huge scale back. Personally if a scale back is coming it signals to me that I need to pick up all the books now before the prices begin to rise. (Like some of the Star Wars Saga books have now.) And would love to know that I need to start picking up all the power books and the various other tidbits like Open Grave that I keep passing over.
Same. I plan to own a complete library of 4e books one way or another. As it is, it is almost complete. I am only missing the 2 draconomicon books, the demonomicon, AV 2, Dungeon Delve, the Monster Vault, and the Dungeon Masters Kit (or whatever the Essential DMG box is called). I plan to buy all of them. If this is going to be a massive scale back I want to know that I need to run out and pick up all those books ASAP.
Via Twitter, Trevor said that he is "working on getting some info out about the [D&D] products that were pulled from the schedule."
But worse: No communication whatsoever.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Do you have an itchy trigger-finger today or something? Nobody posted anything remotely negative and you're already in here giving warnings.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Do you have an itchy trigger-finger today or something? Nobody posted anything remotely negative and you're already in here giving warnings.
Actually, someone did. The post in question was deleted.
Just a thought.
Speculation leads to Paranoia
Paranoia leads to Mistrust
Mistrust leads to Frustration
Frustration leads to Anger
Anger leads to people leaving D&D
Hmmm... the dark side that would be, yes
Perhaps they're holding off releases until they can get DDi actually caught up with the rest of the stuff? Like getting the CB back up to where the old one was, and getting the VT launched. Could just be diverted resources.
Just a thought.
The problem with this is it takes different people to do this. Short of helping out with testing, the writing staff is not gonna have anything to contribute to the OCB or VT. Just as the programming staff might have nothing to add to the writing except maybe some views on the math...
I poked WotC over this yesterday, and expect a response in the next couple of days.
Via Twitter, Trevor said that he is "working on getting some info out about the [D&D] products that were pulled from the schedule."
Man do I hate twitter... especially its use as a business communication tool. Facebook I can half-way understand, it's at least easy to navigate and you can have full sentence, half-way-proper-grammar conversations. Twitter is near impossible to navigate and it's just a jumbled mess.
So for those looking for more info about the #dnd books missing from the schedule, first news will come in the next Ampersand.
(Sent from the @Wizards_DND Twitter account)
As found hereSo for those looking for more info about the #dnd books missing from the schedule, first news will come in the next Ampersand.
(Sent from the @Wizards_DND Twitter account)
You forgot to include the "Likely..." at the end of that quote.
Will the ampersand be free or behind the paywall?
I have re-poked.
Speculation leads to Paranoia
Paranoia leads to Mistrust
Mistrust leads to Frustration
Frustration leads to Anger
Anger leads to people leaving D&D
Hmmm... the dark side that would be, yes
Nope! WoTC doesn't have the license for that saga anymore
As found hereSo for those looking for more info about the #dnd books missing from the schedule, first news will come in the next Ampersand.
(Sent from the @Wizards_DND Twitter account)
You forgot to include the "Likely..." at the end of that quote.
The likely continued to this tweet:
...more conversation to follow.
twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/statuses/2497791...
Will the ampersand be free or behind the paywall?
It really won't matter either way because it will be discussed on the boards immediately after it is released.
(PS mudbunny, your avatar still freaks me out)
I must say that ever since essentials, Wizards communication has gone massively downhill and in a very rapid way.
I agree, though I think the fact that it roughly corresponded with Essentials is a coincidence. This was pretty much causing open rebellion over DDI, particularly the character builder, not long ago. WotC appears to have learned a thing or two from that, since the situation with DDI has improved dramatically - but they didn't learn enough. In particular, they don't seem to have recognized (and to be fair, neither did many of their critics) that this was not a DDI problem but a company-wide problem. (Or at least a pervasive problem with respect to D&D - in fact, the D&D end of the comany could learn a thing or two from their co-workers' handling of Magic.)
On one question that's been asked a few times, isn't Ampersand normally on the free side of the paywall?
Just speculation really, but we have never heard from them that they are cancelled. just that amazon, a physical book seller, is no longer getting them.....
On one question that's been asked a few times, isn't Ampersand normally on the free side of the paywall?
IIRC, the editorials and "Month and Beyond" articles were free, but Ampersand was generally pay-only.
I must say that ever since essentials, Wizards communication has gone massively downhill and in a very rapid way.
Oh no.
This is the standard. A couple of months ago it was looking up, but its gone back to the same patented "cone of silence" its always been,
You know communication is bad when the most exiting previews usually come from the CustServ FAQ previewing a single feat!
There's a new feat? Where!?
You know communication is bad when the most exiting previews usually come from the CustServ FAQ previewing a single feat!
There's a new feat? Where!?
I meant in general.
I felt the previous for the two Heroes book were crummy. They created more questions than answers, and were presented with so much marketing spin that the whole forum would devolve into weeklong flamewars everytime they released one!
The custserv feat previews were clear and to the point. They were brief but we got a useable piece of crunch in a plain and simple presentation.
Remember when the future of D&D wasn't a gaping void and WotC wasn't a stone wall?
Good times.
Am I the only one that suspects that the books pulled are going to be online release only? Let's look at the evidence. The titles left at amazon are 1 book(heroes of shadow), which was most likely at the printer or printing stage when this decision was made, and box sets that can't be made online only. Everything else that could be produced as a single book has been pulled. Plus this coincides with the push of the new wotc e novel line and a revised DDI system. All future product without physical requirements(i.e.maps and tokens) could be produced online at a much cheaper production costs and controlled (at least better than pdf piracy) with active subscription requirements.
Just speculation really, but we have never heard from them that they are cancelled. just that amazon, a physical book seller, is no longer getting them.....
I completely hate to have to buy a book, and only be allowed to use it when I'm online. That's... not right (that's the nicest way I can put that). I'd be okay if they sold as e-books, or whatever; but having to pay for DDI, to use books... that I bought?
It's just something inherently wrong about not printing books anymore; at least for DnD, books are the core component to actually playing DnD. Geh, I can't even really put coherent words together to make sense. I mean, okay, fine, make us basically buy subs to play the game... but... I dunno.
I personally send Wizards an email instead of starting a thread.
Remember when we had usable, 30 level playtest previews of key content of major releases months and months in advance? Remember how we had some idea then of what the developers were thinking? How we felt like we were contributing to the game? How we had confidence in future releases?
Remember when the future of D&D wasn't a gaping void and WotC wasn't a stone wall?
Good times.
Yeah... I was excited about future products back then.
Everything else you said I agree with.
Heh. Of course, they wouldn't have liked what I would have said regarding those two classes....
I completely hate to have to buy a book, and only be allowed to use it when I'm online. That's... not right (that's the nicest way I can put that). I'd be okay if they sold as e-books, or whatever; but having to pay for DDI, to use books... that I bought?
It's just something inherently wrong about not printing books anymore; at least for DnD, books are the core component to actually playing DnD. Geh, I can't even really put coherent words together to make sense. I mean, okay, fine, make us basically buy subs to play the game... but... I dunno.
I completely agree with this. I would also have to add though that I feel the same way about Dragon magazine being online only now... for my monthly subscription I want a physical product sent to me at the end of each month that I can take with me places without having to spend even more money printing them out myself (usually in black & white 'cause otherwise I couldn't afford to print stuff out.)
Yeah there was a test for the executioner, and I was excited to see it. But it was a lot shorter then the previous playtests, and for a much more obscure release. Where was the playtest for the Slayer or Sentinel six months before their release? Where was the playtest for the Vampire, or anything else from Heroes of Shadow? Again, the barbarian, monk, and psion were key elements of major D&D releases. The executioner came and went and at no point did it give us any more of an idea of what the developers were thinking or where the game was headed then we would have had without it.
Not that playtests always accomplish much... you only have to look at the Barbarian to see that. My players have basically come to the conclusion that the Barbarian makes all other strikers wonder why they're not playing Barbarians.
I personally send Wizards an email instead of starting a thread.
But that would actually solve your problem, instead of just moaning about it. That shows a shocking amount of common sense and maturity that I find disgusting.
Using my IPad to store and access the magazine content has been a treat I will not likely tire of.
I wouldn't call them out on the forum like that- lacks class. Sure, I have expressed my opinion that I strongly dislike Mearls work. I wouldn't expect him to defend himself on the forum- that, too, would not be classy (unprofessional) on his part.
In fact, I doubt they closely follow the forums. I wouldn't be surprised if they had someone sorta sum up the mood on the forum to them. Sure, sometimes they take a peak. I don't have the EGO or desire for anyone at Wizards to take my advice on their products. I am just one of many that hates Essentials. There are many who like it too.
Sales will do the talking- nothing else will.
In fact, I doubt they closely follow the forums. I wouldn't be surprised if they had someone sorta sum up the mood on the forum to them. Sure, sometimes they take a peak. I don't have the EGO or desire for anyone at Wizards to take my advice on their products. I am just one of many that hates Essentials. There are many who like it too. Sales will do the talking- nothing else will.
See here for a related discussion.
Also: "I wouldn't be surprised if they had someone sorta sum up the mood on the forum to them." Isn't that part of what the VCLs do?
Not that playtests always accomplish much... you only have to look at the Barbarian to see that. My players have basically come to the conclusion that the Barbarian makes all other strikers wonder why they're not playing Barbarians.
Because they're too busy outshining them from 60 squares away?
Maybe it's just my own experiences... but in games that I've DM'd the Barbarian has usually outshone other strikers. I don't know, maybe I'm way off-base with that, but it's just been my own experience.
The E-strikers and ranger would like a word with your barbarian.
]Back on topic:
I cancelled my DDi sub last month after 2 years. The lack of playtests being one of the major contributing factors. I was feeling like less of an "insider", and more of a guinea pig. I was paying to participate in beta projects.
I really want to know what happened to those products, though. Why should we have to wait for an Ampersand article to tell us this kind of stuff? It should be posted as an announcement.
re: barbarian
The Barbarian is spikey. They're not very accurate, so they miss on average more then other strikers. But when they do hit it's for more damage, and when they critical it's a big deal. Compare to avengers hit far more reliably, but for less damage each time, and who crit far more often, but with less additional impact. Because of this, a lucky barbarian can give a misleading impression of the power of the class as a whole. Conversely, an unlucky barbarian can leave the impression that the class just sucks. Even with average luck, the barbarian's fewer, bigger hits can leave more of a mental impression, while you may never notice the avenger's consistent damage even if it adds up to a bigger number in the end.
The Barbarian is spikey. They're not very accurate, so they miss on average more then other strikers. But when they do hit it's for more damage, and when they critical it's a big deal. Compare to avengers hit far more reliably, but for less damage each time, and who crit far more often, but with less additional impact. Because of this, a lucky barbarian can give a misleading impression of the power of the class as a whole. Conversely, an unlucky barbarian can leave the impression that the class just sucks. Even with average luck, the barbarian's fewer, bigger hits can leave more of a mental impression, while you may never notice the avenger's consistent damage even if it adds up to a bigger number in the end.
that makes sense... I can see that
In fact, I doubt they closely follow the forums. I wouldn't be surprised if they had someone sorta sum up the mood on the forum to them. Sure, sometimes they take a peak. I don't have the EGO or desire for anyone at Wizards to take my advice on their products. I am just one of many that hates Essentials. There are many who like it too. Sales will do the talking- nothing else will.
See here for a related discussion.
Also: "I wouldn't be surprised if they had someone sorta sum up the mood on the forum to them." Isn't that part of what the VCLs do?
Thanks for the link- that was a good, informative article.
The books are cancelled for now. HoS is pushed back.
The cancelled products are sad, as they're most of what I still wanted to buy. Barring the shadowfell box, I'm not sure if I'm going to actually purchase any D&D products this year.
The cancellation of the emporium is particularly sad, as more common and rare items were desperately needed for the new item rarity system to be at all functional.
Very much feels like 4e is winding down, now.
Unhappy bunny is unhappy,
Can I join on the un-happiness.
So...what's left for the rest of the year if all the cool stuff is gone?!
Heroes of Shadow is a hardcover? A real book and not a floppy digest with one power a page??Unhappy bunny is unhappy,
Can I join on the un-happiness.
So...what's left for the rest of the year if all the cool stuff is gone?!
Digital offerings.
Digital offerings.
Yeah... and if its the same quality as the online stuff we've been getting lately (in their new useless fluffier format...) then...
Time to homebrew huh?
/in before "the cake is a lie" jokes.
This Ampersand article had been touted somewhat as being an explanation of what the plans were for DnD and addressing the concerns of the player base.
All I got out of it was: A confirmation that the books are cancelled, no more minis, with a consolation prize of board games, accessories and DDI content.
Not very good news, and certainly not an explanation of what the long term plans are for DnD.
I certainly would have appreciated some more definitive information.
Did anyone find the portion of the Ampersand article regarding the cancellation of books to be extremely vague at best?
This Ampersand article had been touted somewhat as being an explanation of what the plans were for DnD and addressing the concerns of the player base.
All I got out of it was: A confirmation that the books are cancelled, no more minis, with a consolation prize of board games, accessories and DDI content.
Not very good news, and certainly not an explanation of what the long term plans are for DnD.
I certainly would have appreciated some more definitive information.
That's not the WoTC way.
Seriously I think the Harper government has better communication than WOTC -.-
I think I will skip the speculation and patiently await some real-deal information.
I think I may be waiting a while.....
If anything, this Ampersand article will only fuel the rampant speculation.
I think I will skip the speculation and patiently await some real-deal information.
I think I may be waiting a while.....
You'll get it "soon".
Best way to ascertain their roadmap for D&D will be to look back on it in 2 years and see what happened.
If anything, this Ampersand article will only fuel the rampant speculation.
I think I will skip the speculation and patiently await some real-deal information.
I think I may be waiting a while.....
Yeah I might do that to. I'll be trying to create new races and paragon paths or somethin'
www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
The books are cancelled for now. HoS is pushed back.
Its getting a little silly now.
December - we have only the Dungeon Tiles:Wilderness
January - nothing now that Icewind Dales Tiles are pushed to Feb (according to Amazon, B&N, etc)
Feb - New DM screen, delayed Icewind Dales Tiles
March - Nothing now that Heroes of Shadow is moved to April
April - Heroes of Shadow
May - Shadowfell
June - Monster Vault:Nentir Valley; Witchlight Fens Dungeon Tiles
July - Nothing
August - Neverwinter Campaign Setting
September - Madness at Gardmore Abbey
That looks to me, like 1 book (HOS)(plus maybe Shadowfell) that my players are going to get, and everything else is going to be DM only and even counting the DM stuff, thats less then 1 item a month, counting Dungeon Tiles. I'm not sure 1 book for players for the year, is the way for WOTC to make money with D&D, there is alot more players then DMs.
1: Wotc changes things without saying much or anything at all.
2: Thread paranoia starts
3: Mudbunny pokes for info which is the signal for wotc to go into damage control mode and start doing what they should have done before step 1.
4: Thread turns into rumor mongering.
still to come
5: wotc member coming on apologizing for messing up and that they are doing a new process which they need to get the kinks out but that in the end it will be better.
7: Thread turns into anger over a variety of issues.
Mudbunny and AsmodL gain several dozen more gray hairs trying their best to answer questions but they are in the dark too
8: Mudbunny or AsmodL starts a thread asking how in the future things could go better.
Rinse and repeat for the next issue.
Don't forget the ongoing process where roughly half the posters involved blame the other half for being the reason that everything sucks. That's an important part.
Well, obviously my half is right.
Don't forget the ongoing process where roughly half the posters involved blame the other half for being the reason that everything sucks. That's an important part.
Well, obviously my half is right.
Well, of course. I just assume that whenever WotC does something I don't like, it is because they are sad. Why are they sad? Probably because of something I did.
Don't forget the ongoing process where roughly half the posters involved blame the other half for being the reason that everything sucks. That's an important part.
Well, obviously my half is right.
Well, of course. I just assume that whenever WotC does something I don't like, it is because they are sad. Why are they sad? Probably because of something I did.
I'm really starting to question the decision making process at the wotc headquarters, though. Things are rapidly steamrolling downhill.
I have a picture in my head... It involves, a wheel with ideas, and a blindfold. Spin the wheel and put your finger down. Wherever the wheel stops, that what we go with this month. I've never seen so many direction changes in a release schedule or design in such a short period of time.
" I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
: -- J.R.R. Tolkien
I'm really starting to question the decision making process at the wotc headquarters, though. Things are rapidly steamrolling downhill.
I have a picture in my head... It involves, a wheel with ideas, and a blindfold. Spin the wheel and put your finger down. Wherever the wheel stops, that what we go with this month. I've never seen so many direction changes in a release schedule or design in such a short period of time.
I'm trying to be sympathetic to them - the picture in my head is that at some point in the recent past, they were sitting looking at things and someone said "Holy ****, this is just not coming together like we thought. What do we do?" I can sympathize with that. I don't have to like how things played out, but I hope they unwedge things quickly.
It's funny, I predicted that publishing essentials would delay Hero of Shadows past March a while ago. Then again, I didn't expect the reason would be "trying softcover, and getting blowback to hardcover" to be the mechanism of that delay. Considering how the playtests of old got a 10 month leadin, I believe the playtests Malisteen misses so much were eaten by essential's previews.
I hope they don't think that giving us hardcovers will somehow sate the pre-E crowd... That would be sad.
WotC sent me an e-mail. They want to know which of 20 potential products they are considering I might be interested or not interested in.
Feywild book....yeah
Paint by Numbers Dungeon Tile Set.....wha?
And no, I am not consoled by boardgames and auxiliary stuff.
It's funny, I predicted that publishing essentials would delay Hero of Shadows past March a while ago. Then again, I didn't expect the reason would be "trying softcover, and getting blowback to hardcover" to be the mechanism of that delay. Considering how the playtests of old got a 10 month leadin, I believe the playtests Malisteen misses so much were eaten by essential's previews.
Augh... those previews were so badly constructed >< they kept trying to spin it both as 'exciting new direction' and 'return to old favorite ideas' and failed to be either for half of us and just caused us to fling cyber fireballs at each other.
wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
I just hope that GenCon 2011 doesn't come with a nasty surprise.
And the cardboard tile idea is a waste -- call me old fashioned, but leave the art in the books, and put the minis on the map.
It pains me to think that I've invested in this stuff over the past couple of years. I don't expect much on average, but even my expectations have been sorely taxed these last months.
A bit more information on the changes to the product line-up can be found in the following WotC Knowledge Base Article:
wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
So apparently They decided that the three books wouldn't have gone over well with the customers and decided to re-work them and release them some other way? Sounds promising. Assuming that's actually the case...
It's funny, I predicted that publishing essentials would delay Hero of Shadows past March a while ago. Then again, I didn't expect the reason would be "trying softcover, and getting blowback to hardcover" to be the mechanism of that delay. Considering how the playtests of old got a 10 month leadin, I believe the playtests Malisteen misses so much were eaten by essential's previews.
I hope they don't think that giving us hardcovers will somehow sate the pre-E crowd... That would be sad.
It is strange that they switched to hardback.
It's funny, I predicted that publishing essentials would delay Hero of Shadows past March a while ago. Then again, I didn't expect the reason would be "trying softcover, and getting blowback to hardcover" to be the mechanism of that delay. Considering how the playtests of old got a 10 month leadin, I believe the playtests Malisteen misses so much were eaten by essential's previews.
I hope they don't think that giving us hardcovers will somehow sate the pre-E crowd... That would be sad.
It is strange that they switched to hardback.
Not really. They had a lot of negative feedback, and out of all the negative feedback they've been getting that would probably be the easiest/least expensive to fix late into a book's production cycle, since it doesn't require any rewriting. just reformatting.
They must be working on something huge - with this large a dropoff in product releases, without any news of layoffs means they need all the talent they have - and I know they aren't in a hiring freeze. I don't think The Corporate Overlords are cutting D&D loose.
I just hope that GenCon 2011 doesn't come with a nasty surprise.
Power books?
Ohgodohgodplease.
A bit more information on the changes to the product line-up can be found in the following WotC Knowledge Base Article:
wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Thats interesting but brings up the most annoying part of the post. Not putting the Magazines together at the end of the month. I'm guessing bandwidth is much more the issue then everyone reads the articles seperately as they are claiming, but its much easier to load the last 3 dragon issues on my Ipad, then they last 39 articles, and what about the articles that arent in PDF, are we going to get those now in PDF format, the excuse before was it was in the final magazine, now that its not, are we going to see all the columns in an easily downloadable format?
This ampersand article, podcast whatever they are is it open to general consumption?
Yes. Just click on the link upthread and you should be able to view it (I'm not a DDI subscriber and I could access it).
- R&D is now fully responsible for DDI content. Supposedly now Dragon and Dungeon content will fall under the exact same process and scrutiny as hard copy publications. This means that R&D has a whole new set of things to work on.
- Books are getting canceled and the content is supposedly going to be released in another format.
The only way i can possibly interpret this is that R&D is now putting their effort into developing stuff that was going to be in books and sticking it in Dragon instead. It sure looks like consolidating DDI and book R&D means we are going to get less net content from here on out.
" We are constantly striving to remain conscious of the way our fans consume our content. We felt that the material in these titles would best be presented in other ways and we have plans to make it available in the future. "
I think it's no coincidence that they are getting rid of Dragon/Dungeon PDF's at the same time as these deletions are announced. These deleted books are going to be chopped up into many individual Dragon/Dungeon articles. In order to protect their IP investment, they need to make it somewhat difficult to pirate. Thus, the removal of the compiled PDF's. It fits the model of online CB... trying to keep as much material as possible behind the DDI wall.
Is this the future of D&D? A purely digital product? I'm starting to think that this is WotC master plan.
Personally I think it's a huge mistake. I guess I'm old school and like my books. Ho hum. I guess I'd better start saving up for that iPad.
A bit more information on the changes to the product line-up can be found in the following WotC Knowledge Base Article:
wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Well, that was a bunch of corporate mumbo-jumbo.
I have faith in Wizards. They've always come through for me.
Yea, WotC, this is me... unhappy.
They must be working on something huge - with this large a dropoff in product releases, without any news of layoffs means they need all the talent they have - and I know they aren't in a hiring freeze. I don't think The Corporate Overlords are cutting D&D loose.
I just hope that GenCon 2011 doesn't come with a nasty surprise.
...
...
5e, you heard it hear first...
5e, you heard it hear first...
Actually, I believe I read that particular prediction in General earlier today, so no I didn't.
Wow, looks like even the WotC apologists are feeling the heat...
I am not a WotC apologist. I call out bad business practices when I see them. And, I even make subjective complaints when I have them. But I label my subjective complaints (such as my dislike of CCG mechanics in RPGS) as subjective. I am fully aware that such complaints have nothing to do with objective reality and everything to do with my personal preferences. I don't try and claim otherwise. I also don't make completely fraudulent and bologna statements in order to support a baseless attempt to claim that my subjective complaints are empirical (such as the attempt to claim that the E-assassin is overpowered because I don't like essentials). Additionally, I don't support personal attacks against designers whether I like the products they produce or not, because I happen to know that others like the products they produce whether I do or not, and because I happen to realize that designers are real people who can suffer negative emotional affect from hostile personal attacks. Basically, what I hate is a lack of tact, and an overabundance of ignorance and stupidity. I am not bothered by people who express their subjective preferences, or people who express a desire for a more translucent decision making processes on the part of WotC.
Seriously, the only company off-hand that I can think of that has been managed this poorly is Sega during the Dreamcast years.
Sorry, WotC, you would have had a guaranteed sale on at least the Class Compendium and the Heroes of Heroic Tier book from me. Now I can look forward to a wallet that is more full, since I am fed up with your digital system(complete with crappy CB compared to the old one, and bare bones magazines) and have no intention of rejoining it in the near future.
I would have bought a book with more themes even with the silly 'job' stuff they wanted to include.
Wow, looks like even the WotC apologists are feeling the heat...
I am not a WotC apologist. I call out bad business practices when I see them. And, I even make subjective complaints when I have them. But I label my subjective complaints (such as my dislike of CCG mechanics in RPGS) as subjective. I am fully aware that such complaints have nothing to do with objective reality and everything to do with my personal preferences. I don't try and claim otherwise. I also don't make completely fraudulent and bologna statements in order to support a baseless attempt to claim that my subjective complaints are empirical (such as the attempt to claim that the E-assassin is overpowered because I don't like essentials). Additionally, I don't support personal attacks against designers whether I like the products they produce or not, because I happen to know that others like the products they produce whether I do or not, and because I happen to realize that designers are real people who can suffer negative emotional affect from hostile personal attacks. Basically, what I hate is a lack of tact, and an overabundance of ignorance and stupidity. I am not bothered by people who express their subjective preferences, or people who express a desire for a more translucent decision making processes on the part of WotC.
The problem is I wasn't talking about you... Pretty defensive... Sorry I posted after you maybe I should have waited a few posts...
Wow, looks like even the WotC apologists are feeling the heat...
I am not a WotC apologist. I call out bad business practices when I see them. And, I even make subjective complaints when I have them. But I label my subjective complaints (such as my dislike of CCG mechanics in RPGS) as subjective. I am fully aware that such complaints have nothing to do with objective reality and everything to do with my personal preferences. I don't try and claim otherwise. I also don't make completely fraudulent and bologna statements in order to support a baseless attempt to claim that my subjective complaints are empirical (such as the attempt to claim that the E-assassin is overpowered because I don't like essentials). Additionally, I don't support personal attacks against designers whether I like the products they produce or not, because I happen to know that others like the products they produce whether I do or not, and because I happen to realize that designers are real people who can suffer negative emotional affect from hostile personal attacks. Basically, what I hate is a lack of tact, and an overabundance of ignorance and stupidity. I am not bothered by people who express their subjective preferences, or people who express a desire for a more translucent decision making processes on the part of WotC.
The problem is I wasn't talking about you... Pretty defensive... Sorry I posted after you maybe I should have waited a few posts...
You will pardon me if I find your claim disingenuous.
You will pardon me if I find your claim disingenuous.
Cyber-Dave: *waves hand at Lokiare* "You will pardon me ..."
Lokiare: *eyes glazed* "I will pardon you ..."
I'm about 75% sure that "apologists" comment was directed at me, actually.
Any word of any issues with the M:tG line? If so it could point to larger problems within WotC as a whole.
Overall, my disappointment mirrors everyone else's. It's becoming more and more clear (to me at least) that 4th edition will be remembered as "the one where they tried to do too much, too quickly." I'm not really an Essentials fan, but it's not because I think those builds shouldn't be a part of the game—it's because this edition has been characterized by layering upon layering upon layering. And each layer makes the game more involved, creates more possible conflicts, and—contrary to the mantra of Essentials—makes the game less accessible for new players.
I'd argue that the culprit here is money. The D&D operation involves a number of people, probably more than it should. And since all those people need to be paid, income is a constant concern. DDI is a good source of revenue, but to make that product worthwhile, it's necessary to keep generating new content. New books are, of course, another good source of revenue. So the focus becomes new material, new products, new new new. And the focus shifts away from perfecting what's already been created (because errata doesn't generate any new income). What suffers is the game itself.
Here's my pipe dream for D&D. (1) Start working on 5E, sooner rather than later—the execution's gotten so poor that at this point, they're just piling on an increasingly bad product. (2) Put the development in the hands of a small, steady group of individuals that can focus on balance and consistency rather than volume. (3) Slow everything down. Fewer releases, with more time to digest each one. Use DDI primarily for "sneak peeks," with opportunities for meaningful feedback—rather than as a depository for what is essentially homebrew.
Ultimately, WotC should stop focusing on quantity, and start focusing on quality. Most of us play once a week or less, and we use a few characters at a time. My warlord can only have one 9th-level daily at a time—I don't need 36,000 choices. I don't need fast and furious new new new. What I do need is a more seamless experience; I need the game to get out of my way so I can have more fun.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and stop letting "piracy" decide how you're going to run your business. Pulling .pdfs of your books hasn't stopped my ability to download them. Chopping up your magazines into individual articles won't stop my ability to read them.
I
- Big, expensive game-books don't sell as well these days.
- The economy is terrible.
- The books that sell best and most consistently are player option books and monster collections.
- Niche books that focus on certain places (Underdark) or types of creatures (Draconomicon) sell nowhere near as well as other books and are usually targeted at about 20% of D&D players to begin with (DMs).
- People still want those books to be available.
- People share books in their group, and many people pirate their books.
- All of this likely puts the Open Grave type books in the territory of barely covering production costs.
II
- Everyone has the internet.
- WotC already has an online content-delivery system that puts out articles which resemble pages from these niche books in most ways.
- The online content is not as balanced, reviewed or play-tested as the physical books in general.
- A recent announcement informed us that from now on, the online content will be subject to the same approval process as the physical books.
- Three niche product books were removed from the release schedule of physical product, while a new class and monster book were left. (MME is an all-rare item book for DMs, Class Compendium is mostly a reprint with some added material that more suits an online article anyway.)
An unreasonable conclusion:
- Hasbro sent the word down to WotC that it's time to kill off D&D. There will be no products after June. In the meantime, WotC has been told to carry on so that no one on the message-board realizes what's going on. This is despite Hasbro not caring about D&D one way or the other and the grim reality that if they wanted to cancel the D&D line they would just cancel it. It would be over so fast your neck would snap.
A reasonable conclusion:
- WotC is moving toward a business model in which they release traditionally popular books that sell well regardless of technology, sharing and piracy as physical books and boxed sets, while releasing the niche-type products as online article series with proper development and play-testing.
Are either of them true? One thing is sure: None of us know. But I bet we'll find out when they're ready to tell us. If you need to know sooner, then you probably devote just a little too much of your life to this game.
I will be honest, the new Monster Vault seems a lot more "niche" than any of those books. In fact, all those books seems like they would have been guaranteed sellers.
A book of new magic items, rules for integrating old 4e classes with Essentials classes, and a PHB that included theme rules for non Dark Sun games, are "niche" products? Ok...
I will be honest, the new Monster Vault seems a lot more "niche" than any of those books. In fact, all those books seems like they would have been guaranteed sellers.
DM books are, by their nature, niche. The vast majority of D&D consumers are players. So yeah, it is quite questionable to call three books that, by all rights, would drastically outsell the new MV or any of the "accessories" that the company is coming out with. Once again, I think the books were canned to pad the non-Magazines.
For the rest I'm inclined to agree with Loonmaxx's analysis. If they can settle on a good digital standard (which is to say emphatically not "read online only") I can even see it working well.
But missing out on the E/pre-E link leaves them as almost separate entities. Sure, you can mix them in the same game, but they remain like two separate 'tribes', with no real cross-over between them. That "coming together" I was really looking forward to.
Oh, well - watch and wait, I suppose...
Sorry for the double post but I just thought of something and don't trust the edit feature more than I absolutely have too on these fora.
Any word of any issues with the M:tG line? If so it could point to larger problems within WotC as a whole.
MtG looks awesome right now. They're releasing a set in which Phyrexians invade Mirrodin. It has a lot of cool reprints and more nostalgia value than you ca...
Hmmm.
One of the reasons for current situation with D&D publishing might be the beginning of the year; it's an awful time for toy and hobby companies, because Christmas is long over and there isn't any good event that might spark up interest nearby. It's a time for promotional sales, not new releases or announcements.
Let's look at the facts:
I
- Big, expensive game-books don't sell as well these days.
- The economy is terrible.
- The books that sell best and most consistently are player option books and monster collections.
- Niche books that focus on certain places (Underdark) or types of creatures (Draconomicon) sell nowhere near as well as other books and are usually targeted at about 20% of D&D players to begin with (DMs).
- People still want those books to be available.
- People share books in their group, and many people pirate their books.
- All of this likely puts the Open Grave type books in the territory of barely covering production costs.
II
- Everyone has the internet.
- WotC already has an online content-delivery system that puts out articles which resemble pages from these niche books in most ways.
- The online content is not as balanced, reviewed or play-tested as the physical books in general.
- A recent announcement informed us that from now on, the online content will be subject to the same approval process as the physical books.
- Three niche product books were removed from the release schedule of physical product, while a new class and monster book were left. (MME is an all-rare item book for DMs, Class Compendium is mostly a reprint with some added material that more suits an online article anyway.)
A reasonable conclusion:
- WotC is moving toward a business model in which they release traditionally popular books that sell well regardless of technology, sharing and piracy as physical books and boxed sets, while releasing the niche-type products as online article series with proper development and play-testing.
Its some interesting theories, but I think your conclusion needs some work. All 3 books were players books by and large. A magical item book, and two character books, all would be more interesting to my players then Neverwinter campaign setting, Gardmore Abbey or MV:Nentir Valley. Throw in the rest of the Dec-Sept releases and we have a DM Screen, 3 Dungeon Tiles which are pretty much DM items, and then we have just two items left on our list, Heroes of Shadow (Players book, lots of people will buy) and Shadowfell (which may well sell to players because its a new topic). So we had three character books and now we've gone to one and we've removed the magic item book to boot.
Or
The start of a switch over to entirely digital content. This would be good news as it means I don't have to pay for everything twice, the quality of DDI articles will go up as they cannibalise the higher quality material that would normally have gone into these books and more investment will go into the digital products.
Of course the marketing will be screwed up either way.
I definitely want the Neverwinter book!
As for D&D, I sense a 4.5E Advanced or 5E announcement at Gencon!
Its some interesting theories, but I think your conclusion needs some work. All 3 books were players books by and large. A magical item book, and two character books, all would be more interesting to my players then Neverwinter campaign setting, Gardmore Abbey or MV:Nentir Valley. Throw in the rest of the Dec-Sept releases and we have a DM Screen, 3 Dungeon Tiles which are pretty much DM items, and then we have just two items left on our list, Heroes of Shadow (Players book, lots of people will buy) and Shadowfell (which may well sell to players because its a new topic). So we had three character books and now we've gone to one and we've removed the magic item book to boot.
Thanks to item rarity, like 85% of items are now actualy DM territory, there's like 20 common items out of the enourmous heap of them we currently have. Unless this book was mostly common items, its a DM book, unless most groups are ignoring the stupid change (like mine).
I'd also like to note the Neverwinter Campaign Setting would have had the Bladesinger, so there's player content there.
I personally send Wizards an email instead of starting a thread.
But that would actually solve your problem, instead of just moaning about it. That shows a shocking amount of common sense and maturity that I find disgusting.
That depends on what happens. If you send someone an email and nothing happens, and you don't get a reply... that doesn't solve anything.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
The wording "removed from the 2011 content calendar" makes me think it's been pushed back to 2012.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
The wording "removed from the 2011 content calendar" makes me think it's been pushed back to 2012.
The FAQ mudbunny links to states that they (WotC) felt that the material in Mordenkainen's, the Class Compendium, and Hero Builder's Handbook were better released in different ways:
Q: Why have the Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and Hero Builder's Handbook been removed from the calendar?
A: We are constantly striving to remain conscious of the way our fans consume our content. We felt that the material in these titles would best be presented in other ways and we have plans to make it available in the future.
My read on that is as books, they've all been canceled. However, they do not intend to just shelve the content entirely.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
The wording "removed from the 2011 content calendar" makes me think it's been pushed back to 2012.
The FAQ mudbunny links to states that they (WotC) felt that the material in Mordenkainen's, the Class Compendium, and Hero Builder's Handbook were better released in different ways:Q: Why have the Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and Hero Builder's Handbook been removed from the calendar?
A: We are constantly striving to remain conscious of the way our fans consume our content. We felt that the material in these titles would best be presented in other ways and we have plans to make it available in the future.
My read on that is as books, they've all been canceled. However, they do not intend to just shelve the content entirely.
My read was either, as you say they've been canceled as books, or else they're taking time to change the format/way the content was written to better match feedback from customers. Granted the second guess is probably wishful thinking, but it's at least possible.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
If they integrated it into one giant suite of tools. Like, the magazines, splatbooks, etc., all get put into the CB on release day, then are instantly integrated into the VT? That would make it well worth my while.
However, I foresee the same delays in updates and lack of information we've always had, regardless of how they release material.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
No. I don't play MMOs for that very reason. Why would I go for a "pay to play" business model for a tabletop game that I should be able to play for free?
First, Wizards and my local stores have both claimed that Essentials has done very well for them.
Second, as a fan I "assumed" that the upcoming books and their release would be representative of that success.
Third, my local stores complained that these new books -- in particular the Class Compendium -- would hurt them as businesses. You see, they were recommending that those who liked Essentials should buy the copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM that were already on their shelves. They were angry that Wizards was releasing books that had the effect of creating dead weight inventory for them -- unreturnable dead weight inventory.
Fourth, one of TSR's problems that led to its downfall was the massive return of unsold inventory.
Fifth, B&N carries copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM on their shelves that they hope will sell to those who liked Essentials. Their copies ARE returnable.
I assume that Wizards listened to their retailers responses to the announced books, which were primarily updates of existing material, and responded by deciding to not print the books as books rather as online conversion materials.
This has the effect of keeping the old material -- not all of which has been sold -- as a saleable resource. Now players who like what Essentials offered can buy the PHB etc. to get the complete game and can subscribe to DDI to get the articles for how to merge the two.
Seems like a good decision to me, but one that should have been handled more transparently.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Nope.
My read on the cancelled books is as follows. Please keep in mind that I understand that a lot of this is conjecture and that using the opinions of two local hobby shops isn't really generalizable.
First, Wizards and my local stores have both claimed that Essentials has done very well for them.
Second, as a fan I "assumed" that the upcoming books and their release would be representative of that success.
Third, my local stores complained that these new books -- in particular the Class Compendium -- would hurt them as businesses. You see, they were recommending that those who liked Essentials should buy the copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM that were already on their shelves. They were angry that Wizards was releasing books that had the effect of creating dead weight inventory for them -- unreturnable dead weight inventory.
Fourth, one of TSR's problems that led to its downfall was the massive return of unsold inventory.
Fifth, B&N carries copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM on their shelves that they hope will sell to those who liked Essentials. Their copies ARE returnable.
I assume that Wizards listened to their retailers responses to the announced books, which were primarily updates of existing material, and responded by deciding to not print the books as books rather as online conversion materials.
This has the effect of keeping the old material -- not all of which has been sold -- as a saleable resource. Now players who like what Essentials offered can buy the PHB etc. to get the complete game and can subscribe to DDI to get the articles for how to merge the two.
Seems like a good decision to me, but one that should have been handled more transparently.
^^^This. WotC has been shifting towards better support of FLGS, knowing that the deep-discounting channel is always open to them (B&N, Amazon). This is why Premiere stores get the new goodies two weeks earlier than official shelf dates.
Contrary to a lot of griping here on the boards, I've seen lots of evidence of players old and new mixing and matching Essentials with "Classic" 4E. Old players steal feats from Essentials, and new players brought in by Essentials show up with new PHB2 characters not covered in Essentials. So while WotC needs to come up with new goodies for the FLGS stores to sell to its customers/communities, they don't need new splatbooks. Which leads me to wonder what kind of accessories (other than Fortune Cards) they are going to come up with to fill the gap...
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Probably not. It's a good game, but it's not that good.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: **** No.
Longer answer: Not no way, not no how, no nay never no more. Not on your Nelly, not on your life, not for a big clock, not in a month of Sundays. No. If I piled up all the 'no's in the world, there would not be enough to express how much I would not.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
I don't think there is really any way that you could actually force this, but if they found a way, heck no. Only reason I still have a sub is.....weird stuff that I don't want to get into on the forum. -_-
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Nope. One reason being that support would drop after 5e comes out. If everything from CB to articles was downloadable, I would be happy.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Absolutely I would still play. I wouldn't get any of the new official content, but I'd continue to use what I already have. Or did you mean that they'd send their ninja-teams into my apartment?
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: **** No.
Longer answer: Not no way, not no how, no nay never no more. Not on your Nelly, not on your life, not for a big clock, not in a month of Sundays. No. If I piled up all the 'no's in the world, there would not be enough to express how much I would not.
So, you have mixed emotions on this? I'm really trying to understand your viewpoint but you're kinda riding the fence.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Absolutely I would still play. I wouldn't get any of the new official content, but I'd continue to use what I already have. Or did you mean that they'd send their ninja-teams into my apartment?
I always assume Ninjas are involved and it has served me well thus far.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
I could play with a few books or I could play with eveything for the cost of a few books per year.
Nevertheless, I am greatly troubled by many of the recent announcements: no convenient compilations, half-done Character Builder, no new books, power creeping Fortune Cards, no new miniatures... it looks to me like the Wizards have lost their confidence and are panicking. (Reminds me of the last days of the massively multiple player on-line roleplaying game Dark Age of Camelot: fortunately D&D is a perennial brand name.)
Hmm.. let me see... $7 per month for access to everything OR $30 per book. Easy choice: I picked the subscription. I do nto see DDI as a burden but rather an affordable and convenient service.
I could play with a few books or I could play with eveything for the cost of a few books per year.
Nevertheless, I am greatly troubled by many of the recent announcements: no convenient compilations, half-done Character Builder, no new books, power creeping Fortune Cards, no new miniatures... it looks to me like the Wizards have lost their confidence and are panicking. (Reminds me of the last days of the massively multiple player on-line roleplaying game Dark Age of Camelot: fortunately D&D is a perennial brand name.)
In other words it looks like it does every time they gear up for a new edition...
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
I think you're dead on with a lot of this, most of what we're discussing is evidence that a big change is underway. I'm not sure about the pay-per-use system, but I do think the DDI subscription becomes more important to the game and WoTC's plans.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
I don't think that's quite the right question, at least not immediately. And apologies in advance, because much of what I'm about to post I posted elsewhere; it just fits here as well:
D&D will continue in book (and box) format, especially as the entry for new players: the Essentials products (which will remain in print and on shelves) and what will probably continue to be occasional releases of the boxed set expansions (Ravenloft, Threats to the Nentir Vale, etc.) and accessories (tiles, special miniature sets, cards, perhaps token sets). Every other aspect of the game though, I suspect, will be expanded and modified primarily online.
I think we must be seeing the beginning of a long-planned shift that reflects that the old business model simply isn't working well enough any longer. Perhaps other factors are accelerating it (the Borders issue, exchange rates with manufacturers, the reception -- good or bad -- of Essentials). And I'm guessing there's a few more big surprises to come very soon. Perhaps a licensing deal with someone like Reaper/Hobby-Q to take over minis. The return of digital books because of the success of the iPad.
So some physical books and boxes do stay out there as an introduction, but DDI subscriptions -- and more digital offerings to come? -- take on an even greater significance to revenue. I wouldn't be surprised if the PDF format for Dragon and Dungeon articles disappears entirely, let alone in compiled monthly form. Those two become less "magazines" and more of portals for Players and DMs (respectively) where the game is expanded, in the role that splat books and modules used to fill. This helps address a bunch of issues, from the cost of print and distribution, to releasing products that primarily appeal to only 1 out of 6 players at the table (the DM).
Further, there conceivably never has to be a 5E because the game can grow and be modified organically over time, online. The concept of "edition" becomes a remnant of the print-only world, and is only resurrected when Marketing determines that there's a benefit to doing so.
I'd say the execution of this plan has been clumsy, either because they themselves are clumsy or other factors forced them to accelerate the plan. This might be why the print schedule has been chopped, with indications that this content will now be used to help fill the digital pipeline. But if you step way back and look at the big picture of the past 3 years, and ignore the hiccups and details, it looks to me like they are doing pretty much what they said they'd be doing, modifying The Plan as they went along.
Either way, I think we'll be able to look back on this a year or two from now and know that this was the point where they initialized that transition in a noticeable fashion. And although there will be a lot of screams here and on blogs and forums, I wonder if we're just a vocal minority, a blip in the overall sales figures or, at least, the sales figures they want to see. And they might be right. This may be one way that the hobby and/or the game thrives and survives.
If any of this is true, then I have no idea why they just don't come out and say it. Not that marketing communications has been their strong-point. Perhaps we'll hear more at D&D XP, but based on the last few months, I doubt it. I think they feel that at the end of the day, they benefit more from lack of clarity.
If all content goes online, to find information on this setting, or any setting Ill have to search through the site, picking up information here and there instead of just turning the page.
I like online content but I love reading a book on the bus where I don't have wifi, and I love bookmarking a page with a long note on a piece of paper which I can't really do with a pdf. I write in my books, I highlight and jot down npc names in my monster manual... can I do with with a website? Will I have to print everything and create a binder system to have to simulate books?
It all just seems like they are supporting he game, without supporting the DM the person who puts the most into the game.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
You're such a pessimist.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
You're such a pessimist.
Nah, Just good at numbers. Most of the people on here that are swearing off digital content forever are likely at their youngest to be in their late teens to mid-20s. They could be in their 30s or 40s even if they came in with earlier editions. The average human lifespan in the US is about 80 years. That means that even the youngest have maybe another 60 years, putting them at about 2070 on average. Not quite the "end of this century" (I'd classify that as maybe 2080-85ish.)
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
You're such a pessimist.
Nah, Just good at numbers. Most of the people on here that are swearing off digital content forever are likely at their youngest to be in their late teens to mid-20s. They could be in their 30s or 40s even if they came in with earlier editions. The average human lifespan in the US is about 80 years. That means that even the youngest have maybe another 60 years, putting them at about 2070 on average. Not quite the "end of this century" (I'd classify that as maybe 2080-85ish.)
True, but you're taking my post too literally... or I worded it badly. =P
What I was getting at is that, IMO, the old school notions of Tabletop RPGs just aren't going to be a successful model in this century. Too much has/will change, and I think a full or near full conversion to digital, online content is inevitable. Definitely by the end of the century, but possibly in even a couple of decades... IMO.
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Of course. By the end of this century I think it will be hard to avoid digital only content for things like this. To forever swear that off just seems short sighted.
By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
You're such a pessimist.
Made my day!
I assume that Wizards listened to their retailers responses to the announced books, which were primarily updates of existing material, and responded by deciding to not print the books as books rather as online conversion materials.
This has the effect of keeping the old material -- not all of which has been sold -- as a saleable resource. Now players who like what Essentials offered can buy the PHB etc. to get the complete game and can subscribe to DDI to get the articles for how to merge the two.
Seems like a good decision to me, but one that should have been handled more transparently.
That makes a lot of sense. So much sense, that I have to question why they would ever have announced such books in the first place.
I really think the MME book (the magic item one) was dropped for a slightly different reason. The content will be coming out 'in a different form.' My guess is that form will be booster packs. C'mon: Common, Uncommon, Rare? A little on the nose, i'n'it? Gamma World wasn't roundly rejected, and in WotC's book, that counts as enthusiastic acceptance of contaminating classic RPGs with the CCG rip-off model. (Just like only mild criticism of Psionics was taken as a ringing endorsement of trashing the AEDU power structure).
So, magic item boosters: coming to an FLGS near you... eventually.
I assume that Wizards listened to their retailers responses to the announced books, which were primarily updates of existing material, and responded by deciding to not print the books as books rather as online conversion materials.
This has the effect of keeping the old material -- not all of which has been sold -- as a saleable resource. Now players who like what Essentials offered can buy the PHB etc. to get the complete game and can subscribe to DDI to get the articles for how to merge the two.
Seems like a good decision to me, but one that should have been handled more transparently.
That makes a lot of sense. So much sense, that I have to question why they would ever have announced such books in the first place.
I really think the MME book (the magic item one) was dropped for a slightly different reason. The content will be coming out 'in a different form.' My guess is that form will be booster packs. C'mon: Common, Uncommon, Rare? A little on the nose, i'n'it? Gamma World wasn't roundly rejected, and in WotC's book, that counts as enthusiastic acceptance of contaminating classic RPGs with the CCG rip-off model. (Just like only mild criticism of Psionics was taken as a ringing endorsement of trashing the AEDU power structure).
So, magic item boosters: coming to an FLGS near you... eventually.
That is... that ain't normal. But seems like a probably way of things to come. Even Warhammer rpg comes with tons of cards and special dies. Wotc will not stay behind.
long live D&D on hardcover books. The old way is the only good way!
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
That's what I think is happening... and answer to your question: No
I'm realy wondering if "Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium" will be released later this year or in 2012 or if it has been canceled completely.
Here's my pure speculation:
There's been a lot of complaining lately that the "magazines" (they can hardly be called that anymore) are lacking in quality crunch. WotC has killed off these crunch heavy books and will chop them up into pieces to dole out as magazine articles. This will boost the profile of the magazines and therefore the perceived value of the DDI subscription. To protect their intellectual property, they're removing PDF's as an option and instead keeping all Dragon/Dungeon content locked behind the DDI paywall.
D&D as an RPG is going digital in a big way, but as some sort of pay per use system.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
If the remainder of 4th edition material were pumped through to subscription only services, I would have no choice but to not use it, as I currently have no income to support such a commitment.
If 5th edition (if and when it ever arrives) is online only content I would most likely eschew it in favor of the tabletop, books and pens. I have played MMOGs, and I have played P&P games. I would have to say that both have their place. The mentality that it is good to digitize everything annoys me, and I am a loud proponent of video games and digital formats. This is because books have their place in this world, just as digital files have their own place.
So I guess the short answer is No, but for complex reasons that may or may not change depending on how they approach their future material.
On a side note though, the continuation of D&D boardgames may have something to do with them being successful, but also with the ability to just break a box out and play some D&D. Since 4th edition seems to be about squeezing the most game time into the small amount of free time most adults (in America specifically) have these days, the boardgames could be seen as an easier way for both DMs and players to get into games quickly. After all, the attempt to clear a space or clean a domocile, prepare a week's adventure, possibly cook for (or make enough cash to order out for) food can really drain a gaming group. Sometimes people just want to get on with the game. Board games allow that to happen.
I am a DnD Insider subscriber, but I still like and prefer printed books. I don't think it is WOTC’s intent to go completely to a digital format, and I think for the foreseeable future books will or remain the core of the DnD game. I remember when 4th edition was first announced and Chris Perkins at Gen Con talked about how they were bringing digital elements into the game. There was a very noticeable reaction of derision within the room, until Chris calmed everyone down by saying that books would remain the core of the game, but that the digital content would include tools to make tabletop play easier via tools such as a character builder, a character image generator, virtual tabletop, and so forth.
Now, people on here can say people who foreswear digital are in their mid-20's-40 at the youngest and will die of by the end of the century as one previous poster put it and that is fine I won't begrudge anyone their opinion. What I would consider is this what is the average age of a DnD player? In my experience having lived across the continental U.S and being involved with DnD groups and gaming since 1988 and I currently occasional run Encounters at one gaming shop and frequent another 2 in my area, I don't see that many "young" (a relative term but for the sake of the conversation we will include young as people under 25) DnD players in general, especially within the groups of players who actually purchase gaming material and thus give funds to WOTC.
At one gaming store the one I run encounters at there is a father, who brings his young daughter and son in to play DnD (they are age 12 and 14 respectively), and occasional at another game store there is a kid who is in the eight grade (I'm not sure of his age) that shows up to play, but other than that majority of players that I see seem to be in their mid-twenties and up. In terms of what I have seen purchased, the 8th grader seems to be really psyched about DnD and has purchased a good number of books, but stated how much he does not like Essentials and has not purchased any Essentials books except the Monster Vault, and the family at the other store that I sometimes run a game for on Encounter nights the Dad has purchased Heroes of the Fallen Lands for himself and no other books whatsoever. They are also not DnD Insider Subscribers nor are the 8th grader at the other game shop.
Now, you may consider me a “grognard” but in my defense let me say, I don’t have any problem with digital media. I own a Kindle and download a ton of text books to them and non-fictional material and even a few fiction based books, plus magazines and other articles. I own an iPod and a smart phone (I think the iphone is overrated but that is whole different rant). I own both a MAC and a PC, and having played DnD since for very long time I love 4th edition I think DnD has gotten better with each edition (minus Essentials). I support DnD Insider. I welcome the digital evolution in gaming in the sense that I want more tools that don’t’ replace, but enhance my printed material and tabletop experience. I want a better character builder. I want image generator. I want the virtual game table so that when I or one member of my home group has to go out of town for our real jobs or with family we can still have our regularly scheduled monthly home game of DnD. I want a code in my purchased books that can open up a pdf copy of my books. I think all of that is well and good and I embrace it. I can also live with cards and other game elements being added to the game, but at the end of the day give me some books.
As it stands right now, I’m not giving up DnD. I like (most people I know) are playing DnD with the hefty library of hardcover books and manuals and boxed sets they currently own along with digital tools that help the game, but I can say that this is the first time I can remember in playing DnD (and I came in at the end of 1st edition/start of 2nd edition DnD) that I can look at DnD’s product catalogue and not feel excited about something coming out that I want to purchase this month and not this just this month but in multiple months. As it stands right now the only two items I will be buying are The Deluxe DM screen and Heroes of Shadow, which I am very happy they decided to print in hardcover as I despise the digest sized format of the Essentials books. I think it is pretty sad to not feel excited about a product’s production catalogue, and the thought of getting to play board games in place of books does not excite me at all.
As I have argued in other post on topics I think (or at least hope) that marketing department at WOTC are bright enough people. Bright enough to know not to alienate their core audience which I think would prefer to see some hardcover books like AP2, etc in place of nothing but digital releases and board games. Basic marketing says don't alienate your loyal and repeat customers, which is an argument I have made in other threads on other topics and can be validated by studying marketing or even doing a google search on customer facts. Here marketing.about.com/od/relationshipmarke... is just on link. If Wotc chose to go mainly digital I think it would rectify itself quickly ....or they would stand to lose a significant amount of sales and Hasbro would sell them off, but then another company would just pick up the brand and go back to the formula that worked so the capitalist system would self correct the situation.
To end on a positive note all this stuff is all wild speculation. I mean we feared everything would be in an Essentials only format this year and that certainly isn't the case as witnessed by Heroes of Shadow bieng released in standard hardcover (woohoo!) and we have not seen the production catalogue for the second half of this year yet so I am going to remain hopeful even though I literally (no pun intended) have nothing to purchase from until April 2011.
Peace,
Fallstorm
P.S. One thing I went interject briefly is that assuming scipio is correct and the people who would not support a predominately digital version of DnD are going to literally die (as I understand the argument and please correct me if I am misunderstanding what is being said) the game needs to make enough money to get to that stage and if there are a percentage of people in that venerable age group of 25-40ish that would not support all digital then that might be a problem, but then again who knows maybe by going digital DnD will become as hip as X-Box and all the kids playing Playstation, Wii, and X-Box will drop plus cut their WOW affliction in favor of a DDI subscription and then WOTC/DnD will be big ballin' like the NBA.
Now, people on here can deride certain groups because of their age "saying people who foreswear digital are in their mid-20's-40 at the youngest and will die of soon" or something to that effect as one previous poster put it and that is fine I won't begrudge anyone their ageist thoughts.
Thats a mix of two or three quotes, and completely misinterpreted. Then you went on to call anyone involved in the conversation you clearly did not understand ageist.
There is a quote system build into the forums so this kind of thing doesn't happen. Please use that system.
I am a DnD Insider subscriber, but I still like and prefer printed books. I don't think it is WOTC’s intent to go completely to a digital format, and I think for the foreseeable future books will or remain the core of the DnD game. I remember when 4th edition was first announced and Chris Perkins at Gen Con talked about how they were bringing digital elements into the game. There was a very noticeable reaction of derision within the room, until Chris calmed everyone down by saying that books would remain the core of the game, but that the digital content would include tools to make tabletop play easier via tools such as a character builder, a character image generator, virtual tabletop, and so forth.
Now, people on here can deride certain groups because of their age "saying people who foreswear digital are in their mid-20's-40 at the youngest and will die of soon" or something to that effect as one previous poster put it and that is fine I won't begrudge anyone their ageist thoughts. What I would consider is this what is the average age of a DnD player? In my experience having lived across the continental U.S and being involved with DnD groups and gaming since 1988 and I currently occasional run Encounters at one gaming shop and frequent another 2 in my area, I don't see that many "young" (a relative term but for the sake of the conversation we will include young as people under 25) DnD players in general, especially within the groups of players who actually purchase gaming material and thus give funds to WOTC.
At one gaming store the one I run encounters at there is a father, who brings his young daughter and son in to play DnD (they are age 12 and 14 respectively), and occasional at another game store there is a kid who is in the eight grade (I'm not sure of his age) that shows up to play, but other than that majority of players that I see seem to be in their mid-twenties and up. In terms of what I have seen purchased, the 8th grader seems to be really psyched about DnD and has purchased a good number of books, but stated how much he does not like Essentials and has not purchased any Essentials books except the Monster Vault, and the family at the other store that I sometimes run a game for on Encounter nights the Dad has purchased Heroes of the Fallen Lands for himself and no other books whatsoever. They are also not DnD Insider Subscribers nor are the 8th grader at the other game shop.
Now, you may consider me a “grognard” but in my defense let me say, I don’t have any problem with digital media. I own a Kindle and download a ton of text books to them and non-fictional material and even a few fiction based books, plus magazines and other articles. I own an iPod and a smart phone (I think the iphone is overrated but that is whole different rant). I own both a MAC and a PC, and having played DnD since for very long time I love 4th edition I think DnD has gotten better with each edition (minus Essentials). I support DnD Insider. I welcome the digital evolution in gaming in the sense that I want more tools that don’t’ replace, but enhance my printed material and tabletop experience. I want a better character builder. I want image generator. I want the virtual game table so that when I or one member of my home group has to go out of town for our real jobs or with family we can still have our regularly scheduled monthly home game of DnD. I want a code in my purchased books that can open up a pdf copy of my books. I think all of that is well and good and I embrace it. I can also live with cards and other game elements being added to the game, but at the end of the day give me some books.
As it stands right now, I’m not giving up DnD. I like (most people I know) are playing DnD with the hefty library of hardcover books and manuals and boxed sets they currently own along with digital tools that help the game, but I can say that this is the first time I can remember in playing DnD (and I came in at the end of 1st edition/start of 2nd edition DnD) that I can look at DnD’s product catalogue and not feel excited about something coming out that I want to purchase this month and not this just this month but in multiple months. As it stands right now the only two items I will be buying are The Deluxe DM screen and Heroes of Shadow, which I am very happy they decided to print in hardcover as I despise the digest sized format of the Essentials books. I think it is pretty sad to not feel excited about a product’s production catalogue, and the thought of getting to play board games in place of books does not excite me at all.
As I have argued in other post on topics I think (or at least hope) that marketing department at WOTC are bright enough people. Bright enough to know not to alienate their core audience which I think would prefer to see some hardcover books like AP2, etc in place of nothing but digital releases and board games. Basic marketing says don't alienate your loyal and repeat customers, which is an argument I have made in other threads on other topics and can be validated by studying marketing or even doing a google search on customer facts. Here marketing.about.com/od/relationshipmarke... is just on link. If Wotc chose to go mainly digital I think it would rectify itself quickly ....or they would stand to lose a significant amount of sales and Hasbro would sell them off, but then another company would just pick up the brand and go back to the formula that worked so the capitalist system would self correct the situation.
To end on a positive note all this stuff is all wild speculation. I mean we feared everything would be in an Essentials only format this year and that certainly isn't the case as witnessed by Heroes of Shadow bieng released in standard hardcover (woohoo!) and we have not seen the production catalogue for the second half of this year yet so I am going to remain hopeful even though I literally (no pun intended) have nothing to purchase from until April 2011.
Peace,
Fallstorm
P.S. One thing I went interject briefly is that assuming scipio is correct and the people who would not support a predominately digital version of DnD are going to literally die (as I understand the argument and please correct me if I am misunderstanding what is being said) the game needs to make enough money to get to that stage and if there are a percentage of people in that venerable age group of 25-40ish that would not support all digital then that might be a problem, but then again who knows maybe by going digital DnD will become as hip as X-Box and all the kids playing Playstation, Wii, and X-Box will drop plus cut their WOW affliction in favor of a DDI subscription and then WOTC/DnD will be big ballin' like the NBA.
Heroes of Shadow is an Essentials style book. It will contain a few feats and powers for pre-E classes but the bulk of the book is focused on post-E sub-classes. The only thing that might actually be totally pre-E style is the Vampire, but I doubt it. It'll probably be a sub-class build of the Druid...
Now, people on here can deride certain groups because of their age "saying people who foreswear digital are in their mid-20's-40 at the youngest and will die of soon" or something to that effect as one previous poster put it and that is fine I won't begrudge anyone their ageist thoughts.
Thats a mix of two or three quotes, and completely misinterpreted. Then you went on to call anyone involved in the conversation you clearly did not understand ageist.
There is a quote system build into the forums so this kind of thing doesn't happen. Please use that system.
- I have been a member of these boards for a while now (longer than you at least under your current moniker) so I am well aware the boards have a quote feature. What I was trying to do was avoid these long strings of quotes like several listed above (not that I completely disagree with what was said) that have quoted strings of entire posts. Do we really need to grab the entire string of from 2-3 posts to be carried over to get that you agree or disagree? Just quote part of what was said. This is how we end up with 16+ page threads that don't really need to be 16 pages. Also, the old boards had quote features also. Just so you know the quote feature is not new.
2. erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">
erdana; color:#333333; font-size:9pt">By the end of this century a great many of the people posting here who have "forever sworn off" that kind of thing will be dead.
erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">
erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">
erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">I don't think I misinterpreted this quote. My point was that I the game has to survive to the end of the century for it to change, and I don't know if the majority of the current fanbase would support predominately a digital format with no or very limited books based upon what I have seen. If you have something to contribute to that discussion i.,e marketing data, game sale analysis, gamer demograhic analysis, a tarot card interpretation, etc please do so.
3. When I said "ageist" I was being facetious, which doesn't always carry over well in a post. In the spirit of cordiality I edited that part of my original post since you are highly sensitive to it.
erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">
Peace,
erdana; color:black; font-size:9pt">Fallstorm
Heroes of Shadow is an Essentials style book. It will contain a few feats and powers for pre-E classes but the bulk of the book is focused on post-E sub-classes. The only thing that might actually be totally pre-E style is the Vampire, but I doubt it. It'll probably be a sub-class build of the Druid...
We will see. If it has some feats and things that pertain to non-E classes that will honestly be good enough. I expected them to cater to Essentials in this book to some extent. Hopefully, at least one class will be in the Pre-E format. Like I said, one thing I'm definately happy about is that it is a hardcover release and not like the Essentials book in that regard.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Heroes of Shadow is an Essentials style book. It will contain a few feats and powers for pre-E classes but the bulk of the book is focused on post-E sub-classes. The only thing that might actually be totally pre-E style is the Vampire, but I doubt it. It'll probably be a sub-class build of the Druid...
We will see. If it has some feats and things that pertain to non-E classes that will honestly be good enough. I expected them to cater to Essentials in this book to some extent. Hopefully, at least one class will be in the Pre-E format. Like I said, one thing I'm definately happy about is that it is a hardcover release and not like the Essentials book in that regard.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Which was probably the intended effect of making it a hardcover. To convince the anti-Essentials crowd that it is somehow not Essentials so they will purchase it. What they don't understand is when the inti-E crowd gets it home and realizes what's going on, they will no longer buy books from WotC from feeling betrayed...
Short term money grab comes to mind...
Which was probably the intended effect of making it a hardcover. To convince the anti-Essentials crowd that it is somehow not Essentials so they will purchase it. What they don't understand is when the inti-E crowd gets it home and realizes what's going on, they will no longer buy books from WotC from feeling betrayed...
Short term money grab comes to mind...
Lokiare, all I can say is that I hope you are wrong, just like I hope those who speculate about WOTC taking DnD down an all digital route are wrong. In fairness, WOTC did say the book would be presented in an Essentials like format, but I thought what they meant was by being a soft cover and digest sized. Since, it is hardcover and does not have the Essentials brand upon it I am/was hoping it would for the most part be a return to the standard format.
I don't think WOTC will try and mislead people only because people can look at the book before they purchase it or at the very worst read reviews online from people who have already obtained the book so people will know if it is in Essentials format game design wise or not before they buy it. Sadly, although I'm not fond of Essentials I may still purchase the book only to get more information on the Shadow power source. I still would love for a PHB4 to be released exploring this source in full as well as giving new builds to existing power sources like the other Handbooks have done. Right now, the only power source build I like is the Pre-Essential Assassin although to be honest I think it suffers some major issues other strikers don't have, but that is an off-topic discussion. So back to future releases; I will wait and make my decision on HoS when the book is released and I peruse it.
Like I said before this is the first time I can remember since I started playing DnD that I can 100% percent honestly say that for almost the entire first quarter of DnD product catalogue I really have no excitement because I have nothing that I desire game wise to spend my money on besides two products Deluxe GM Screen and Heroes of Shadow. All I can do is shake my head and try to stay constructive by hoping things will get better production wise in terms of books after June 2011.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Which was probably the intended effect of making it a hardcover. To convince the anti-Essentials crowd that it is somehow not Essentials so they will purchase it. What they don't understand is when the inti-E crowd gets it home and realizes what's going on, they will no longer buy books from WotC from feeling betrayed...
Short term money grab comes to mind...
Lokiare, all I can say is that I hope you are wrong, just like I hope those who speculate about WOTC taking DnD down an all digital route are wrong. In fairness, WOTC did say the book would be presented in an Essentials like format, but I thought what they meant was by being a soft cover and digest sized. Since, it is hardcover and does not have the Essentials brand upon it I am/was hoping it would for the most part be a return to the standard format.
I don't think WOTC will try and mislead people only because people can look at the book before they purchase it or at the very worst read reviews online from people who have already obtained the book so people will know if it is in Essentials format game design wise or not before they buy it. Sadly, although I'm not fond of Essentials I may still purchase the book only to get more information on the Shadow power source. I still would love for a PHB4 to be released exploring this source in full as well as giving new builds to existing power sources like the other Handbooks have done. Right now, the only power source build I like is the Pre-Essential Assassin although to be honest I think it suffers some major issues other strikers don't have, but that is an off-topic discussion. So back to future releases; I will wait and make my decision on HoS when the book is released and I peruse it.
Like I said before this is the first time I can remember since I started playing DnD that I can 100% percent honestly say that for almost the entire first quarter of DnD product catalogue I really have no excitement because I have nothing that I desire game wise to spend my money on besides two products Deluxe GM Screen and Heroes of Shadow. All I can do is shake my head and try to stay constructive by hoping things will get better production wise in terms of books after June 2011.
Peace,
Fallstorm
+1
Should you and I ever meet IRL, I will promptly purchase for you the beverage of your choice.
.
Here's a question: If, in the future, a DDI subscription is really the only way to play D&D would you still play?
Yes.
Third, my local stores complained that these new books -- in particular the Class Compendium -- would hurt them as businesses. You see, they were recommending that those who liked Essentials should buy the copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM that were already on their shelves. They were angry that Wizards was releasing books that had the effect of creating dead weight inventory for them -- unreturnable dead weight inventory.
Fourth, one of TSR's problems that led to its downfall was the massive return of unsold inventory.
Fifth, B&N carries copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM on their shelves that they hope will sell to those who liked Essentials. Their copies ARE returnable.
I think you're probably right. The problem is that those books are 2 1/2 years old, and there have been a bunch of changes to them since. I know that there's an ongoing debate about how much has been changed, and I'm not trying to start that conversation again. I just know that if I was new to the game, and purchased the PHB because I liked Essentials, I'd be danted and discouraged by the 20+ pages of updates and rule changes that have taken place since June 2008. Is it too much to ask to have a reprinting of some of the older books!?!
With HoS going hardback, is still digest size or returning to what we had before? If that's the case, it needs more stuff to fill the page count, will some of Heroic tier be included? That wouldn't be hard to squeeze in a chapter or two. If they do return to the classic back, then Sword and Spell would be too small as it's only 5 of the ten classes, so would have to add material that has been written yet as they hadn't leaked the second Class compendium yet.
I think all the confusion surrounding Essentials has already hurt the sales of the original 4e books.
The original books are what I purchased for my nieces.... Ironically I don't feel confused either other emotes in there ....