Give greater thought to the crossover areas of the D&D product ranges.
Here I am: DMG, PHB & MM to one side; H1, H2 & H3 to the other; ALL my newly aquired 4e floorplans & miniatures in front... guess what...
I don't even have the figures I need to run the intro lvl1 dungeon in the DMG, let alone H1+ for my (new) players... and what's more, the figures I need are no longer produced!
With all the collectable $%^£*& system on the models this means that those figures that ARE still out there cost a bundle and generally need shipping from the US (I'm UK based)
My plead is that there be (perhaps NON-collectable) figure and tile packs for each of the WotC published official adventures along with the chance to get singles (or perhaps race packs) for PCs.
As an example the DMG pack would contain:
Tiles:
terrain tiles: The maps in the DMG (NOT just a paper map!)
4 trap tiles: Skull stone, 2x dart traps, rolling boulder
Monsters:
12 kobolds: wyrmpriest, 2x slingers, 3x skirmishers, 4x minions, 2x dragonshields
3 drakes: spiretop, 2x guards
2 humans: rogue, cleric
1 tiefling: rogue
1 dwarf: 'Barstomun'
1 dragon: young white
PCs (ideally):
Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Wizard, Half-Elf Cleric, Dragonborn Paladin
(Starting characters as used in H1)
If not so many models could be done, then either 1 model of each for visual effect and good quality counters, OR decently sturdy flat models with bases.
Anyway... this is likely spitting in the wind, however I'd be chuffed if this sort of thing could be linked into the DDI (personally I'd have to be able to use it offline though).
:-)
You're in luck! Well, sort of. WotC has announced that they are going to try to start putting out nonrandom minis sometime in the first 6 months of 2009. AFAIK, there is no plan to link these to adventures, but it's still something.
Link or it didn't happen! It just sounds too good to be true. Not saying you're lying, but anybody can be mislead by rumors and optimism.
I would definatly pay an extra 25-30$ for an adventure if it came with all the minis and dungeon tiles. Even if they say "Reuse kobold from encounter 1 in this fight" to shorten the ammount of minis included.
You're kidding, right? You'd seriously drop $50-$60 dollars on a module?
You're kidding, right? You'd seriously drop $50-$60 dollars on a module?
if it came with all the minis and tiles for it yes i would.
You're kidding, right? You'd seriously drop $50-$60 dollars on a module?
heck no!
But I would be inclined to pay something in the ballpark of 40.
I am of the opinion that the given modules are way over priced. I would pay like 10-15 tops for the modules as written. (Guess my original post neglects to mention this.)
And I'd love a link to WotC saying they'd get non-random minis out. I've wanted those for sooo long.
Let's hope they don't gouge on the prices though, and then blame "lack of interest" instead of "we charged too much" for them not selling well.
Its nice to be able to pick the right one you want, so you can personalize your character. Its sucks having to pick something that "best resembles" your character. Right now I have a Rastlin Majere mini as a model for my ranger.. "sigh!"
I love the ole Ral Partha, TSR, GamesWorkshop heyday days.
check some of them out http://www.blackmoor.ca/rpfrostgiant.htm
So don't bother looking for that thread, its not there,, Didn't want you to think I was sending anyone on a wild goose chase.a link to a rival company is a no-no [slaps hand]
I'm of mixed feelings now, as we now know there are partially non-collectible models due to start landing anytime, which is great, BUT STILL I find troubles besetting my attempts to play the game.
Those models are still COLLECTABLEs and as such just feel to me to be a way of printing money as they force me to purchase unwanted models in order to gain those I need for play. *sigh*
Of course the new models are a step in the right direction, but seriously! I would happily buy several dozen miniatures probably monthly IF (and ONLY if) I didn't have to buy the *&$£ I am forced to buy into... Rares/Uncommons? Why!? Just charge more!! I REALLY don't mind it if the price actually reflects the manufacturing cost.
The other issue I had was the maps and I've got to say I'm really pleased with the new usage of the tilesets to produce dungeons. MUCH better, though I am a fussy beggar and would like to have 3D dungeons, but that's just me and I'm looking in that direction (Wizards could be getting that money too and they'd be easier to cast than the miniatures, no? *grin*)
One point though... DT6! Dungeon Delve requires that I have access to 2 copies of each tile pack from DT6 through to DU1, sadly though it seems DT6 is as rare as the proverbial rocking horses leavings... still, I have them on order. *fingers crossed*
I'm also a subscriber to DDI... primarily for the Virtual Tabletop application, so as that seems to have been withdrawn I've again been left feeling like I've paid for unwanted content and been let down.
Please, please, please, Wizards - as a customer I'm a PARTNER in trade with you, not a resource for harvesting and I feel my brand loyalty slipping away as I the amount I must spend to enjoy OUR mutual interest of D&D increases, especially when I find myself having to buy unwanted items (or being left with them).
Another item that has crept onto my WishList - those fonts Davek, Rellanic, etc... so that I can produce handouts and clues!
:-)
An update, some time on...
I'm of mixed feelings now, as we now know there are partially non-collectible models due to start landing anytime, which is great, BUT STILL I find troubles besetting my attempts to play the game.
Those models are still COLLECTABLEs and as such just feel to me to be a way of printing money as they force me to purchase unwanted models in order to gain those I need for play. *sigh*
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. You don't NEED specific miniature models to play D&D. You don't NEED to have the exact amount of minis of the exact type for each prepublished adventure. WANTS and NEEDS are different things.
Of course the new models are a step in the right direction, but seriously! I would happily buy several dozen miniatures probably monthly IF (and ONLY if) I didn't have to buy the *&$£ I am forced to buy into... Rares/Uncommons? Why!? Just charge more!! I REALLY don't mind it if the price actually reflects the manufacturing cost.
You aren't forced into anything. You can choose to purchase, or not. WOTC isn't holding a gun to your head and instructing you to purchase their minis, or any other product.
The other issue I had was the maps and I've got to say I'm really pleased with the new usage of the tilesets to produce dungeons. MUCH better, though I am a fussy beggar and would like to have 3D dungeons, but that's just me and I'm looking in that direction (Wizards could be getting that money too and they'd be easier to cast than the miniatures, no? *grin*)
I don't see how they'd be necessarily easier to cast than minis, but that's besides my primary point on this particular issue. There are plenty of third-party 3D dungeon building products. WOTC doesn't need to make their own.
One point though... DT6! Dungeon Delve requires that I have access to 2 copies of each tile pack from DT6 through to DU1, sadly though it seems DT6 is as rare as the proverbial rocking horses leavings... still, I have them on order. *fingers crossed*
BS. Dungeon Delve doesn't require ANYTHING besides a PHB for your PCs, really.
I'm also a subscriber to DDI... primarily for the Virtual Tabletop application, so as that seems to have been withdrawn I've again been left feeling like I've paid for unwanted content and been let down.
Then discontinue your subscription.
Please, please, please, Wizards - as a customer I'm a PARTNER in trade with you
Sorry, but wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. With all the inaccuracies in your post, it's hard to pick the worst, but I'm pretty sure this one is it.
Buying a product does not make you a partner in anything, as much as you may like to think so.
It makes you a customer, which to be fair, you included in there...but the idea that it makes you a partner, and therefore WOTC is wrong for ignoring your individual desires? Bah.
I'm puzzled though... I HAD thought I was posting from MY VIEWPOINT. Had I realized I was posting your opinion I would have worded it differently. Sorry about that.
TheSalesOfWar... are you for real? Are you employed by WotC or do you work in the English department of a UK university? I only ask as:
1) You seem to be VERY defensive about WotC when I am purely providing feedback from a personal viewpoint of a product I have already bought into for almost 2 decades and to the tune of £1,000's and have enjoyed very much during that time.
2) I speak English, as spoken in England and have successfully done so for a little under two of your lifespans to date. If you wish to teach me how better to use my native tongue please do so in PM. It is NOT your place to criticise posters use of language. I find people who do so to be worthy of the same lack of respect they afford others.
Need vs Want?
To clarify: I stated MY need... that is my NEED (note, NOT want) for specific miniatures in order to play D&D in the way I wish to. I have tried playing with random miniatures and indeed imaginary ones but it's just not the same. :-)
Being forced?
What part of must buy other items with the ones you wish to constitutes a choice in purchasing power? And how does this work is what I am looking for is not visible through, or indeed ON, the packaging?
Casting tiles?
You acknowledge a lack of knowledge, but STILL say I'm wrong, simply stating that YOU can't see. How does that constitute anything constructive.
As feedback I considered it worth raising a consideration that WotC might consider a product that would enhance thier product and earn them more whilst being possibly easier to produce that current items already sold, and ALL THIS while keeping loyal customers in house and happy. A worthy target for many companies during financially difficult times. No?
Go look into it, I have. The level of detail and fine work on the existing miniatures is exceptionally difficult to produce and Wizards have done a great job. The existing molds for dungeon tiles that are around are less demanding on detail work and so should be, in the hands of the DDM guys, simpler than many of the present ones.
I COULD go and buy some of the existing ones and it would even probably be cheaper, but I could also do that with the miniatures and tiles, etc... I purchase them not because I can't make them, but because I like the way WotC make them for me.
Dungeon Delve?
Your playing style may not require anything, but as indicated at the beginning of this post, I am me.
Each delve has been authored to be played with a particular set of published tiles and details just which set and how many at the beginning of it. The figures of 2 of each DT6 through to DU3 is based on what would be needed in order to be able to run ANY delve in the book WITH TILES.
Discontinue?
Why not talk to Wizards yourself about all these terrible posters using language in terribly inconsiderate ways, obviously just to make you think they are either critical or unhappy. This part of your post shows, in my opinion, a severe lack of command in the English language, as well as a level of pedantry that I sincerely hope does not cause you problems in daily life.
Partnership?
Obvoiusly just my view (I shouldn't REALLY have to clarify that!)
Whenever there is a two way transaction, eg I give something in exchange for something of a percieved equal vale, then I am equal in standing to the other party. The phrase parthership that I used reflects this status. In the stated example I offer custom, in the form of money over time, in exchange for products and services that I will have use of. These products and services are stated ahead of each transaction in order that both parties may make an informed choice to go ahead. These statements of service and product are contracts whether written, spoken or broadcasted.
A customer IS a partner in trade, and more. They pay not just the wages of the company, but it's profits. They advertise more effectively than any other medium. They may provide a HUGE amount of input to the benefit of the company. AND ALL without wage. All that is asked is that the trust between trade partners be maintained.
It's in this area that my only actual 'issue' with Wizards lies... I gave my money in the belief I would receive a VirtualTable program which then dissapeared. IF the product I bought into IS in development, I would like to know along with, if possible, an ETA... otherwise I would like to be offered an apology at least. I shall indeed not renew my DDI until the products I wish are present rather than just promised. I've learnt as much from my last trusting act.
This is not to say that I shall not buy WotC. I most certainly shall in as far as they are physically existant and will help me towards further enjoying my D&D experience.
My views are opinions and should be taken as such. I know I find feedback very valuable and as nice as positive feedback is, as a company, would NOT want negative feedback to be sent to anyone other than myself.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong?
You say inaccuracies, but NOWHERE in you reply do you actually state ANY FACTS. Your reply is pure criticism. I would be interseted in your opinion, but PLEASE, don't attach it to someone else's post asif, in being a reply, it gains more veracity. Have the courage to sate you views IN THIER OWN LIGHT.
To any other posters who have issue with anything I've posted here... please remember it was a public reply to a public post.
Please post privately if the issue is with me and not Wizards or D&D.
Enjoy your games and do Wizards the honour of telling them how they are doing right OR wrong... we all benefit.
:-)
*snip*
TL;DR
You can find very affordable minis because some stores consider the D&D mini game dead. I bought tons of the minis for a very affordable price in boxes. About 1$ for rares, anything between 20 to 50 cents for uncommons. More than often I will just buy the ones I want for cheap. Just look around in your area.
You can make your own tokens with free distributed art found on the web and programs such as tokentool. Just print a bunch on cardboard at Staples for about 50 cents per sheet; roughly 2 cents per monster.
Make your own tiles and maps from user art and free public images. No need to be picky or learn GIMP or Photoshop. You can make a very decent maps with powerpoint in under 30 minutes. If you are lucky, some friends on the WWW made theirs available for you. I found great custom maps I needed for H2 on the web. I have basic sets of WOC tiles for other encounters I can represent easily with them. Wizard does also put on the site all the images from their adventures. I will assume here, if you own those, that they expect people who need them to make use of it. Just resize and cut in powerpoint to fit the dimension of the basic tiles you need.
You want to play on the web? There is a bunch of other options until WOC decides to develop their own. Some will make you pay, others are free. I have a game running myself the old fashion way around wine and a good supper. I play from time to time via the web in another group. Be creative.
As for the WOC tools, the lack of news does not make me optimistic about the state of development of the table and visualizer. But for the actual price, I am satisfied with the content from WOC. At 15 bucks per month, I would expect a full MMORPG with a world to play in 24/7.
Good luck to you.
TL;DR
If you don't have the common courtesy to actually read the posts of the person you are arguing with, then the correct response is simply to leave the thread. Disagreeing without being disagreeable is a useful life skill.
I'm also a subscriber to DDI... primarily for the Virtual Tabletop application, so as that seems to have been withdrawn I've again been left feeling like I've paid for unwanted content and been let down.
This is one of the reasons why I'm not a subscriber. I'm not in the habit of paying for promises. When the tools I want are all up and working, I'll consider subscribing then.
This is one thing I actually agree with TheScalesOfFate on: if you're unhappy with a service you are paying for, then stop paying for it! Unlike TheScalesOfFate, however, I don't think it is wrong for you to express your unsatisfaction here as well. But emailing WotC directly might be a more productive way of making your wishes known. If lots of customers agree with you and all make their voices known, then (assuming WotC actually cares about customer service) there's at least a chance your complaints will be addressed. Just venting on the forums is unlikely to have much effect, other than to maybe make you feel better.
Another item that has crept onto my WishList - those fonts Davek, Rellanic, etc... so that I can produce handouts and clues!
Fonts for Davek and Rellanic are available on the web in various places. Try the Google, or have a look on ENworld. I am unsure of the IP/copyright status of these (fan-made) fonts, so I won't post a direct link, but they're pretty easy to find.
If you don't have the common courtesy to actually read the posts of the person you are arguing with, then the correct response is simply to leave the thread.
I'm not going to sit and read through a ridiculously long post that begins with an accusation of shilling for WOTC. I am under no obligation to do so, nor to respond to said post. I am fully within my rights to ignore any given poster and continue discussing the issue with other posters. That is why there is an ignore option on these boards in the first place. Don't tell me what the correct response is, plz k thx.
This is one of the reasons why I'm not a subscriber. I'm not in the habit of paying for promises. When the tools I want are all up and working, I'll consider subscribing then.
Fortunately for us happy subscribers we aren't pay for promises, but rather are paying for exactly the product that is promised. For $4.95 a month I get a subscription to two digital magazines, access to the Compendium, monthly updates for the Character Builder, and the use of a small suite of bonus tools.
WotC does plan on expanding the services provided by DDi in the future with products such as the Game Table, Character Visualizes, and Dungeon Builder, but they are not presently charging for any of these. The current price is only the price for what is currently available, and WotC has stated that they will likely increase the subsciprtion price over time as any additional services/products are added to it.
I'm not going to sit and read through a ridiculously long post that begins with an accusation of shilling for WOTC. I am under no obligation to do so, nor to respond to said post. I am fully within my rights to ignore any given poster and continue discussing the issue with other posters. That is why there is an ignore option on these boards in the first place. Don't tell me what the correct response is, plz k thx.
I didn't read your post, but I assume you're bashing unicorns. Well for your information, pal, I love unicorns. I think they're neat! I think that little horn on their head is actually a welcome addition! I think it's an upgrade in the horse DNA, the next step in equestrian genetics, if you will. Frankly, I don't like that you would have the audacity to suggest that a unicorn is in any way lessened by the horn or it's somewhat girly nature. I think those are both great ways to make it better! In fact, damn you to hell for thinking for even a moment, sir, that the unicorn is in any way inferior to the common horse. All it would take is to paint a few black stripes on it and it would become a Zebra AND a Unicorn! Y'know what would happen if you painted black stripes on Black Beauty?! Jack all, that's what would happen!
And if you try to correct me, perhaps by stating that you never brought up the subject of unicorns, I will tell you that, in fact, you're not allowed to tell me what the correct response would be. Plz k thx.
As for minis- while it's nice to want something, it's just as easy to use what you have. I have an elder white dragon, for example, that is used for every dragon type in the game. Sometimes it's red. Sometimes it's green. It doesn't have to look exactly like the monster.
Although, a boxed set adventure would be neat. I like the new folder where multiple books and maps can be inserted. (Sadly, modules seem to only bother having just one map....)
If not minis, then perhaps sheets of tokens that could be inserted into the folder would work.
Would it be nice if WotC released Modules with full area maps, proper tiles for each encounter and minis/tokens for all the monsters? Yes, it would be! But, sadly, that's not how they operate their business -- and that's kinda their prerogative.
I'm here to say that I would gladly pay for a $35-$45 version of King of the Trollhaunt if it came with all of the above, but it doesn't. Hence, I do not pay that much. In fact, I pay a pretty low amount considering that I do not really have to spend hours upon hours crafting what's offered in the Paragon modules.
I would, however, appreciate it greatly if WotC would reissue all the tiles they require with the Dungeon Delve, or at the very least work on a DD2 that incorporates tiles that are 100% available.
Also, I gotta agree that you're getting a really good deal with DDI currently. $5 a month gets you quite a bit. And while I'd love to have the other tools too, WotC is in fact not charging such an amount that I feel like I'm paying for something that I am not receiving.
I would, however, appreciate it greatly if WotC would reissue all the tiles they require with the Dungeon Delve, or at the very least work on a DD2 that incorporates tiles that are 100% available.
Is it really so hard to substitute tiles from different sets? The biggest requirement is possessing tiles of the same shape with roughly analogous terrain features, and even that can be fiddled with by a creative DM. A trek through a sewer could become a hike through a narrow mountain pass with a stream running down the middle.
Redressing the set can even be a great way to reuse the same material over again. Take one scenario that involved fighting goblins in a murky water flooded cavern, but redress it as fighting mongerfolk in the city sewers; spread out over enough time and separate campaigns (maybe even adjust the encounter level by substituting monsters that are exactly X levels higher or lower than the printed version) and your players are likely to never notice that they have effectively played the same encounter two or more times.
My request for those up high... please, please, please...
Give greater thought to the crossover areas of the D&D product ranges.
Here I am: DMG, PHB & MM to one side; H1, H2 & H3 to the other; ALL my newly aquired 4e floorplans & miniatures in front... guess what...
I don't even have the figures I need to run the intro lvl1 dungeon in the DMG, let alone H1+ for my (new) players... and what's more, the figures I need are no longer produced!
With all the collectable $%^£*& system on the models this means that those figures that ARE still out there cost a bundle and generally need shipping from the US (I'm UK based)
My plead is that there be (perhaps NON-collectable) figure and tile packs for each of the WotC published official adventures along with the chance to get singles (or perhaps race packs) for PCs.
As an example the DMG pack would contain:
Tiles:
terrain tiles: The maps in the DMG (NOT just a paper map!)
4 trap tiles: Skull stone, 2x dart traps, rolling boulder
Monsters:
12 kobolds: wyrmpriest, 2x slingers, 3x skirmishers, 4x minions, 2x dragonshields
3 drakes: spiretop, 2x guards
2 humans: rogue, cleric
1 tiefling: rogue
1 dwarf: 'Barstomun'
1 dragon: young white
PCs (ideally):
Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Wizard, Half-Elf Cleric, Dragonborn Paladin
(Starting characters as used in H1)
If not so many models could be done, then either 1 model of each for visual effect and good quality counters, OR decently sturdy flat models with bases.
Anyway... this is likely spitting in the wind, however I'd be chuffed if this sort of thing could be linked into the DDI (personally I'd have to be able to use it offline though).
:-)
I'm afraid that in the flame war erupting here, any passing WotC employees might miss the point, which to me is:
LOTS OF YOUR PLAYERS WOULD PAY MORE FOR BUNDLING MINIS AND TILE WITH ADVENTURES!!!!!
Please, look into a way to do that. At least let us know why it can't work if it can't, so we stop asking.
I'd prefer if an adventure came with anything, its the 2-3 rare unique creatures. I'd prefer to buy my commons in packs. I'm not sure how many kobolds come in a gaggle, but I'd by a gaggle of kobolds, or a flock of orcs, maybe even a herd of bugbear.
Dwarves on the other hand would all need to be sold separately. Each one is far too unique to be clumped together like the the fodder.
Although it would be nice to be able to purchase adventure sets, I can see the complaints when set A comes with 12 kobolds and set G comes with 15 and people complain they have way too many of them, and "why should I pay for stuff I don't want".
I'd prefer if an adventure came with anything, its the 2-3 rare unique creatures. I'd prefer to buy my commons in packs. I'm not sure how many kobolds come in a gaggle, but I'd by a gaggle of kobolds, or a flock of orcs, maybe even a herd of bugbear.
Dwarves on the other hand would all need to be sold separately. Each one is far too unique to be clumped together like the the fodder.
Yep it would be great if they released small packs, say 4-5 minis, of commonly used monsters such as:
1. Skeletons and Zombies
2. Wolves
3. Orcs
4. Kobolds
5. Goblins
6. Various beasts (bears, boars, etc).
I know Reaper is starting to do this, and I also know there is a demand for it... so why not?
Yep it would be great if they released small packs, say 4-5 minis, of commonly used monsters
Fortunately WotC already does exactly that. The distribution method just happens to be a random assortment of commonly used figure. The primary side effect of which just happens to be that rarer less usable figures can be hard to get when one needs them. WotC is, however, correcting this by making said figure visible. So that when you buy each pack you know that you are getting X monster you want plus an assortment of other baddies that you are likely to use repeatedly over the course of a campaign.
Fortunately WotC already does exactly that. The distribution method just happens to be a random assortment of commonly used figure. The primary side effect of which just happens to be that rarer less usable figures can be hard to get when one needs them. WotC is, however, correcting this by making said figure visible. So that when you buy each pack you know that you are getting X monster you want plus an assortment of other baddies that you are likely to use repeatedly over the course of a campaign.
Unfortunately, the word random kills it for me, and I'm guessing it might for a lot of other folks. My mindset might be skewed, but if I can only see 3 figures, then the cost of the pack must justify the 3 figures alone since it is the only thing I can guarantee.
Wizard's has once again missed the mark (my opinion) and I hope in time, will change this oversight.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Just my 2 cents here.
You can find very affordable minis because some stores consider the D&D mini game dead. I bought tons of the minis for a very affordable price in boxes. About 1$ for rares, anything between 20 to 50 cents for uncommons. More than often I will just buy the ones I want for cheap. Just look around in your area.
Good luck to you.
Where are these stores? Do you have web sites. The stores in my area only sell the $15 boxes. They do not sell single minos.
ANYWAY, I remember that they had also included little 1' cardboard cutouts with the monsters' faces and maybe even the names on them. They were simple and cheap, but they got the job done. I would love to see someone create a big thing of monster punchouts. It would be cheap top make, and a packet of sheets could go for $5.
If something cheap like this is already available, where might one find them? The closest thing I've seen is monster tiles, and that's a bit too much for me right now.
If something cheap like this is already available, where might one find them? The closest thing I've seen is monster tiles, and that's a bit too much for me right now.
The new D&D Roleplaying Game Starter Set for 4th edition, comes with a sheet durable monster tokens (printed on the same stock as Dungeon Tiles), three sheets of dungeon tiles, and a complete set of dice. I'm an experienced D&D roleplayer, but even I felt this set was a good enough value to purchase two copies.
Once the Game Table is back (or information regarding it starts flowing again) I shall be renewing my membership in short order. I'm just a fan of minis and am longing to be able to actually SEE my weedy little heroes face off against gruesome beasties of all sorts. To be fair I wouldn't really mind if it was virtual... I'm just impatient.
I've looked at the competition (of course I have) but on one hand very few of them approach what was being promised in the Game Table. Of the best ones though I've had trouble trialing them on either XPx64 or Vista64. I remain hopeful, although being an owner of eTools, I'm still a little skeptical. Saying that, the character builder is excellent.
Tokens are a good alternative and I do have some, again a few sheets with tiles as an adventure pack would find custom with me. Would plastic tokens be a possibility though? I've found the card degrades after some use and although my tiles have weathered the storm (and most are available locally) I have found the constant use of the tokens themselves wears on them very quickly.
I know D&D's about exercising imagination and that's a major factor in why I have stacks of stuff dating right back. Sometimes (a good amount of the time) I just don't have the time to generate encounters afresh and like to have a pre-formed and well balanced encounter or three that I can adapt in smaller ways to link into a campaign. Delves has been great for this, but substituting monsters in the Delves for ones I happen to get in the booster packs just feels to me to be counter to why I bought DD in the first place. If I have now to recreate each with tiles and monsters I have then I could have done that myself, or even used some of the earlier edition stuff... where's the saved time gone. That's all time I want to be roleplaying!
As I posted originally, I'm in the UK, which means models work out quite a bit more expensive after currency conversion, shipping, taxes/duty, fees, etc. I haven't found any wholesale importers yet but would be interested in knowing of any of you guys are aware of. :-)
I would even be happy to have collectable models as racial examples so that players may play with counters and tiles but could have an example of the baddie that they can use for a kind of visual reference... it's one thing to describe the troll in gory detail, but another to be able to see it towering over your favourite hero. If only I could truly choose.
In all the cases above and posted throughout by me I would like (and am aware it may only be me) all this to be true to brand and that's why I haven't sought alternative suppliers (yet?)... I've looked around and found a large variation in quality and design. Those models produced by Wizards, I can't detract from them, are in the majority excellent and getting better as time passes. :-)
WotC! I want to give YOU my money for these products and have it go towards producing more D&D stuff to make MY gaming more enjoyable!
All you have to do is please everyone in this thread, OK? Simple really. *grin*
:-)
And this guy was a pro painter, so his paint jobs look better than the factory plastic ones do now.
Pfft, I'm an amateur mini-painter and my mini's look better than the factory plastic ones.
If you want some mini's for your characters I'd really recommend Iron Kingdoms and Anima Tactics mini's. They are just excellent for D&D. Though, I'd suggest using a different base for the mini's than the ones supplied by Iron Kingdoms, their base is a bit too large for D&D, but the mini's are in many cases just perfect.
While tiles would be superior, I'd accept a set that has poster maps and enough minis to run the game. Painted minis would be nice, but if it's cheaper to do unpainted resin/plastic minis, I'd go for quantity over color.
[Edit] Actually, since it's unlikely that WotC will put this out themselves, I'd like to see them license it to a 3rd party - maybe get FFG to do it?
The only way I'll be buying any more minis is if they're released in like sets. "Box of Goblins." I'm completely done buying random minis in any capacity. I've had my fill of the "I hope I get some more kobolds" game.
The idea of dungeon tiles actually working with published adventures isn't a bad idea. It's the minis part that makes it economically unfeasible.
The only way I'll be buying any more minis is if they're released in like sets. "Box of Goblins." I'm completely done buying random minis in any capacity. I've had my fill of the "I hope I get some more kobolds" game.
If they're minis for the adventure you're buying, they wouldn't be random. this does create some other issues, but to me they sound like the old arguments against doing prepainted minis (remember the whole: "minis players want to paint their own, no one will buy them!") in that it's just a matter of someone solving the issues and releasing a solid product.
I haven't heard anything that's actually a dealbreaker but cost, and as Jack Sparrow would say, that means we've established the plan is sound in principle, now we're just haggling over price.
You could even split the monster packs into encounters, or several encounters together. I know from listening to the DnD Mini guys that selling individual minis would be logistically harder, so selling each individual encounter seperately would probably be too hard. But maybe split up the adventure's encounters into three parts?
You could even include set-pieces, like an important/trapped altar that might be in the capstone encounter, or something.
I think such a product would really rock. Hell, I don't even buy pre-made adventures and I'd buy those mini packs.
I think selling monster packs that correspond to published adventures, but selling them seperate from the adventures would be the best solution.
You could even split the monster packs into encounters, or several encounters together. I know from listening to the DnD Mini guys that selling individual minis would be logistically harder, so selling each individual encounter seperately would probably be too hard. But maybe split up the adventure's encounters into three parts?
The problem is that just grouping allot of minis together doesn't really save all that much cost. The Star Wars mini's line has done some similar items with two scenario packs (Battle of Hoth and Clone Wars). The first one had 17 mini and cost about $40+ while the second contained 10 minis and cost about $30+. Both sets were limited run store exclusives.
The biggest problem with pre-packed sets though is that they they can't match the variety currently provided by the random line (key packs like skeletons/zombies or goblins/orcs would need to be constantly reissued leaving little shelf space for lesser know but still desirable monsters), or if they tried they wouldn't be able to provide desired figures in sufficient quantities (I really need 4 kobold archers to run the encounter I want but the kobold encounter set costs $20 and only comes with one archer).
Like it or not random distribution gets us 120+ different figures a year. No method of individual figures or pre-pack sets could possibly hope to match that level of variety. The secondary market than provides a cheep resource to by large quantities of the common figures, and even most rares aren't terribly expensive (just a few key iconincs).
If they're minis for the adventure you're buying, they wouldn't be random.
Well, if they were all packaged seperately:
* H1: Keep on the Shadowfell ($30)
* H1DT: Keep on the Shadowfell Dungeon Tiles ($10)
* H1M: Keep on the Shadowfell Miniatures ($20-25?)
It might work. Lumping even two of these together into one package, however, would be a higher price-point than I think most will go for.
Not posted on here before, but I agree it would be good if they did non random minis in packs of 4-5 related figures. Perhaps even say a 'warband' pack which for instance could be the Hobgoblin patrol from the 2nd level of KotS, which in this example would be 9 related minis - this could come complete with stats cards for the different types of figure (so 4 in this case) and an encounter card which gives details of the tactics they employ, XP value, Encounter level etc.
Just a thought...
Paddy
Well, if they were all packaged seperately:
* H1: Keep on the Shadowfell ($30)
* H1DT: Keep on the Shadowfell Dungeon Tiles ($10)
* H1M: Keep on the Shadowfell Miniatures ($20-25?)
It might work. Lumping even two of these together into one package, however, would be a higher price-point than I think most will go for.
I would add that there could be a coupon for a discount in each set for a few bucks off the other two. Maybe it could be something along the lines of: Save $5 when you purchase two of H1* products with the proof of purchase of the other one. This way those who want to use all three can get a bit of a price break.
Hi,
Not posted on here before, but I agree it would be good if they did non random minis in packs of 4-5 related figures. Perhaps even say a 'warband' pack which for instance could be the Hobgoblin patrol from the 2nd level of KotS, which in this example would be 9 related minis - this could come complete with stats cards for the different types of figure (so 4 in this case) and an encounter card which gives details of the tactics they employ, XP value, Encounter level etc.
Just a thought...
Paddy
This is another good idea. I remember the old Book of Lairs (there were several) and the Adventure Cards. These were meant as side treks or springboards for longer adventures. This could work along the same lines. A short adventure that comes with everything needed.
The problem is that just grouping allot of minis together doesn't really save all that much cost. The Star Wars mini's line has done some similar items with two scenario packs (Battle of Hoth and Clone Wars). The first one had 17 mini and cost about $40+ while the second contained 10 minis and cost about $30+. Both sets were limited run store exclusives.
The biggest problem with pre-packed sets though is that they they can't match the variety currently provided by the random line (key packs like skeletons/zombies or goblins/orcs would need to be constantly reissued leaving little shelf space for lesser know but still desirable monsters), or if they tried they wouldn't be able to provide desired figures in sufficient quantities (I really need 4 kobold archers to run the encounter I want but the kobold encounter set costs $20 and only comes with one archer).
Like it or not random distribution gets us 120+ different figures a year. No method of individual figures or pre-pack sets could possibly hope to match that level of variety. The secondary market than provides a cheep resource to by large quantities of the common figures, and even most rares aren't terribly expensive (just a few key iconincs).
This is what I mean by the Chainmail thinking, though. I've seen where this argument came from, and realistically, it's a product of the discussions being had in an office that's already in the collectible business. Other companies (not in the gaming psace) are doing non-random minis at lower price points. Take a look at Safari's Tubez if you're ever in AC Moore. About $8 for about 10 nonrandom "minis," and they're bigger than D&D minis with fairly god quality. Board game companies are including colored minis in greater numbers in their products. This can be done.
I think this looks impractical only from WotC's traditional viewpoint. Someone's moved the cheese, and they keep looking for it in the same old spot.
(And now I have to go find my soul. It ran screaming from that Who Moved My Cheese ref.)
So, if they all get released in theme packs, everyone can buy all the kobalds they want really easy. But then you want to run something slightly different. However, your local stores only have the shelf space to carry 15 or 20 boxes at any given time. Now, figure that's a couple of each of the 'common' packs. That doesn't leave much stock space for the displacer beat pack, or the beholder, or the owlbears, or the drakes or the purple worm. So which one or two should they carry? Which one is less likely to end up as dead stock?
Someone in another thread broke it down very well. When dealing with miniatures your choices are
1) Cheap
2) Large Variety
3) Non-Random
Pick any two.
Right now, if you want a large variety of non-random minis, there are a half dozen companies that do very good work. Yeah, it will cost you a few dollars per goblin, but that's the cost of having a large variety of minis on hand and ready to order.
And economically, packing minis and tiles with adventures does not work. Yes, I know there are a lot of people higher in the thread saying you would buy it. The catch is that, with few exceptions, you would buy such a thing once. Let's say WotC releases a new adventure with all the minis+tiles needed for $50. Everyone rushes out to buy it. Six months later they release a another one for $50. But now half the common minis are the same. After all, a goblin is a goblin. Even if they were being intentional about not using the same monsters, how many Heroic tier modules do you think they can do without using goblins twice?
So, how many of you will shell out the same $50 for an adventure when you already have many of the minis and tiles? They can't publish the adventure with only the new minis for a lower price because you get the exact same problems we have now when the first adventure goes out of print or newer players are not interested in buying it jsut so that they can run the new module.
However, ONE single intro set would be a good idea. I think WOTC could put out a map tile and figure set to play out KOTS. Gets people buying map tiles and figures. Once they have the MAJORITY of what they need, they move on to buying map tiles and/or figures from the existing choices in hopes of expanding the base amount. I personally WILL NOT buy random figures, but if I could have purchased a KOTS, I might well have then bought a pack or two or D&D minis to add on and activated the colllecting bug and then...
You could even just do one a year. D%D Year 1: KOTS and KOTS mini set. Year 2: ParagonoftheBrinedCucumber and POTBC mini set. Year 3: DestinyoftheTreefrogSHoelaces and DOTTS mini set. Repeat with a new set for the cool campaign worlds in the next year.
You're kidding, right? You'd seriously drop $50-$60 dollars on a module?
I would certainly drop $50-$60 on the module if it came with the dungeon tiles and minis.
Right now, if I want to give the business to WotC, I'd have to drop $Hundreds on random boxes of minis to come up with substitutions, rather than the right parts. This is, unfortunately, where WotC tells me outright to take my business elsewhere, which is, again - unfortunately, what I do.
The benefit that a DM/Collector, like myself, has with getting a box of pre-painted minis with stat cards is huge. But the randomness of it all makes my entire D&D minis collection a ramshackle of cool minis that I can't use with my D&D published adventures - which is, again, unfortunate. What's even worse, is that the scale of the D&D minis is slightly (but very noticeably) smaller than those I've been purchasing to fill out the needs of my D&D Published Adventures - meaning that WotC actually insists that I stop buying their minis altogether!
How unfortunate - because all in all, I like the D&D minis. I just can't get them to cooperate with their own published products!
I would certainly drop $50-$60 on the module if it came with the dungeon tiles and minis.
Sure, but would you do it twice? Say Wizards releases a set with everything and you buy it. Perhaps they come out with the sets regularly or perhaps it is an occasional thing, but one way or another a year or two later they release another set that contains many of the same monsters. So, there is this new set with, say, 75% of the same monsters you have from the first set. Do you buy it?
I suspect that Wizards could release one or two of these as some sort of special event and have it work. The problem comes when you start making a regular thing of it. If there are more than the occasional repeat in monsters/tiles, the long term players won't buy it. If they don't repeat things, then you get all the same complaints about not being able to find any of the older material.
I like an idea that was raised in another thread where WotC might bundle a special figure, like a Gargantuan Orcus, with the appropriate Epic adventure. They could probably do a few of those and be more successful than the Icons line was while still getting the special stuff out there.
But I think, by and large, the new monsters/PCs split format of the minis is going to work pretty well.
The problem with non-random minis is that they are only economical to do in limited variety. Yes, including minis in themed board games seems to be a thing right now. But you have to remember that they only need to mass produce perhaps a dozen figures. The numbers don't work the same way when you are trying to keep 100+ figures in circulation. And yes, a decent D&D line does need 100+ figures. 5 kobolds, 5 orcs, perhaps 10 undead total, half dozen animals. That's 25 figures without touching a single player/NPC race or anything the slightest bit unusual.
So, if they all get released in theme packs, everyone can buy all the kobalds they want really easy. But then you want to run something slightly different. However, your local stores only have the shelf space to carry 15 or 20 boxes at any given time. Now, figure that's a couple of each of the 'common' packs. That doesn't leave much stock space for the displacer beat pack, or the beholder, or the owlbears, or the drakes or the purple worm. So which one or two should they carry? Which one is less likely to end up as dead stock?
Someone in another thread broke it down very well. When dealing with miniatures your choices are
1) Cheap
2) Large Variety
3) Non-Random
Pick any two.
Right now, if you want a large variety of non-random minis, there are a half dozen companies that do very good work. Yeah, it will cost you a few dollars per goblin, but that's the cost of having a large variety of minis on hand and ready to order.
And economically, packing minis and tiles with adventures does not work. Yes, I know there are a lot of people higher in the thread saying you would buy it. The catch is that, with few exceptions, you would buy such a thing once. Let's say WotC releases a new adventure with all the minis+tiles needed for $50. Everyone rushes out to buy it. Six months later they release a another one for $50. But now half the common minis are the same. After all, a goblin is a goblin. Even if they were being intentional about not using the same monsters, how many Heroic tier modules do you think they can do without using goblins twice?
So, how many of you will shell out the same $50 for an adventure when you already have many of the minis and tiles? They can't publish the adventure with only the new minis for a lower price because you get the exact same problems we have now when the first adventure goes out of print or newer players are not interested in buying it jsut so that they can run the new module.
And as i said before, this entire argument is brought down by the fact that there is a company doing a wide variety of non-random figs at a pricepoint lower than D&D Minis. You can do all three, here's a company doing it:
http://www.amazon.com/Lair-Dragons-Collection-2-Toob/dp/B00132K32O/ref=pd_sim_t_9
They have dragon, pirate, Egyptian, wild West, knights, etc... They have some very cool stand-alone dragons as well. Using that same model, WotC could make figs of nearly the entire MM and another colleciton of PC figs.
And as i said before, this entire argument is brought down by the fact that there is a company doing a wide variety of non-random figs at a pricepoint lower than D&D Minis. You can do all three, here's a company doing it:
http://www.amazon.com/Lair-Dragons-Collection-2-Toob/dp/B00132K32O/ref=pd_sim_t_9
They have dragon, pirate, Egyptian, wild West, knights, etc... They have some very cool stand-alone dragons as well. Using that same model, WotC could make figs of nearly the entire MM and another colleciton of PC figs.
Um, seriously? I'm not sure you grasp the scale of what you are talking about.
First, this isn't a wide variety. In any sense of the word. Grand total, they make roughly 10-12 sets (I'm being generous ad including some that I think may be repackages. Also, 'farm babies') each with what looks like 6 figures.
That's 60-80 figures total. So, their entire line is roughly the size of a single D&D miniatures set.
There are roughly 180 base entries in the first monster manual. That doesn't include any subtypes, just the heading in the index that says 'goblin' or 'demon'. If you go by the individual listing in the back there are roughly 560 individual monsters. That's almost an order of magnitude larger than the entire toy line you listed. It's also only roughly 3 miniatures per monster category. So, 3 different orcs, three different gnolls, three different sizes of dragon...
Oh, SIZES. We want different sizes of monsters! If you will notice the toy line you referenced is one size-fits-all. Every model is roughly the same dimensions and that size isn't huge. The pirate ship that comes with the pirates is the same size as the cannon is the same size as the captain. The figures in the 'farm babies' pack are about the same size as the figures in the knights pack.
And finally, they are really not that cheap. A set of 6 costs $12, so roughly $2 per mini. They also make larger speciality figures that go for $10-$30. Any of these prices sound familiar? And that's Amazon prices. You can get D&D mini boosters with 8 minis on Amazon for the same price.
And as i said before, this entire argument is brought down by the fact that there is a company doing a wide variety of non-random figs at a pricepoint lower than D&D Minis. You can do all three, here's a company doing it:
http://www.amazon.com/Lair-Dragons-Collection-2-Toob/dp/B00132K32O/ref=pd_sim_t_9
They have dragon, pirate, Egyptian, wild West, knights, etc... They have some very cool stand-alone dragons as well. Using that same model, WotC could make figs of nearly the entire MM and another colleciton of PC figs.
I have some of those figures. The quality is no where near as good as D&D minis. Many of them have simply fallen apart on me. So the company might produce variety at a low price point, but quality suffers.
Um, seriously? I'm not sure you grasp the scale of what you are talking about.
First, this isn't a wide variety. In any sense of the word. Grand total, they make roughly 10-12 sets (I'm being generous ad including some that I think may be repackages. Also, 'farm babies') each with what looks like 6 figures.
That's 60-80 figures total. So, their entire line is roughly the size of a single D&D miniatures set.
There are roughly 180 base entries in the first monster manual. That doesn't include any subtypes, just the heading in the index that says 'goblin' or 'demon'. If you go by the individual listing in the back there are roughly 560 individual monsters. That's almost an order of magnitude larger than the entire toy line you listed. It's also only roughly 3 miniatures per monster category. So, 3 different orcs, three different gnolls, three different sizes of dragon...
Oh, SIZES. We want different sizes of monsters! If you will notice the toy line you referenced is one size-fits-all. Every model is roughly the same dimensions and that size isn't huge. The pirate ship that comes with the pirates is the same size as the cannon is the same size as the captain. The figures in the 'farm babies' pack are about the same size as the figures in the knights pack.
And finally, they are really not that cheap. A set of 6 costs $12, so roughly $2 per mini. They also make larger speciality figures that go for $10-$30. Any of these prices sound familiar? And that's Amazon prices. You can get D&D mini boosters with 8 minis on Amazon for the same price.
No, the numbers aren't different at all. Each tube has 8-12 figs, there's a lot of sets, easily more than 180 total figs. There may be 560 total monsters (although i seriously doubt your math there) but you don't need that many different figs, and you won't get that many different figs from D&D minis. Isn't the new monster set only 80 figs?
Safari handle largers sizes with a line of non-random individual figs. You can take the elephant in the africa tube which is out of scales, or you can buy the $5 4" high one the sell separately. what, you couldn't apply this ot D&D?
http://www.safariltd.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=bags_bins_sets
Here's safari's home site. Their span of figs is huge, and there's no issue you've raised that isn't answered. they come in different sizes, random and non-random configurations:
http://www.safariltd.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=toobs_megatoobs
How'd you like to buy a bulk bin of mixed small figs (kobolds, goblins, dwarves, etc)?
http://www.safariltd.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=bulk_bins
I have some of those figures. The quality is no where near as good as D&D minis. Many of them have simply fallen apart on me. So the company might produce variety at a low price point, but quality suffers.
I will take that quality level any day of the week and twice on Sunday. It's not perfect, but it gets the price point down and they're still fully painted.
(To be honest, I can't see them falling apart, but could see paint rubbing off or somehting, mine seem pretty rugged.)
the only issue I have is they're too big, but that's just a matter of mold size. If the average toob fig was 50 percent smaller, they'd be perfect for D&D
Keep on selling Dungeon Tiles.
Keep on selling Adventures.
Start selling Deluxe Boxed Sets of Adventures that contain applicable Minis and Dungeon Tiles.
Everybody's happy!
I've purchased every hardcover 4E release to date, but I have not purchased a single Mini, Dungeon Tile or Adventure. The random factor (Minis), the limits imposed on map design (Dungeon Tiles), and the unreality of all-in-one-package ease (Adventures) just doesn't entice me. On the other hand, I'd certainly go for a Deluxe Boxed Set in a heartbeat! I do, however, recognize that standalone Minis, Dungeon Tiles and Adventures have their place and serve their purpose. I have friends that enjoy them, they just fail to spark my interest as singular entities.[/indent]
* H1: Keep on the Shadowfell ($30)
* H1DT: Keep on the Shadowfell Dungeon Tiles ($10)
* H1M: Keep on the Shadowfell Miniatures ($20-25?)
Just wanted to echo here that I would buy those mini packs for the official adventures. When we started Keep I scoured the internet for kobolds and couldn't find any real quantity of them. I'd be happy if I could buy, anywhere, a box of kobolds. Make them available only through the Wizards online store and I still would have bought them. Yes, I would do it for every module.
I can certainly see access to the appropriate dungeon tiles with a subscription to DDI. That makes so much sense it is almost silly. I say that even after finding some good online sources for tiles.
Matt