This thread is for any feedback you might have regarding Randy Buehler's forthcoming Welcome to Digital Insider article.
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Welcome to Digital Insider!
by Randy Buehler
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi folks,
Every week I’ll be posting an update here about the ongoing progress of D&DI. I’ll also be doing my best to give you guys sneak peeks about what’s coming down the line, glimpses at how things are getting done, and visibility into the flavor of what it’s like to work on such an awesome game. This week I’m just going to focus on facts since I know you guys are starved for information right now. In the future, I look forward to sharing some of my own D&D resume because I’m sure those of you who know me at all know me mostly as a “Magic guy.” (I was really tempted to begin this column with “Let me tell you about my character …” but I think I’ll save that for a week or two.)
First, some clarifications of the big picture: D&D Insider is a collection of distinct components, all of which are designed to help you enjoy D&D even more than you already do. Our current vision for the product includes:
The new online versions of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
A D&D Compendium that provides searchable access to rules elements from all of our published material.
A suite of small “bonus tools” that live on the web and help automate some basic tasks of being a player or DM.
A Character Builder with all the rules built in.
A Character Visualizer that lets you build a 3D model of your character, either so you can take a screen shot for your character sheet or turn it into a miniature that you will then use on the D&D Game Table.
A Dungeon Builder that allows you to construct maps to play with either on the kitchen table or on the D&D Game Table described below.
The D&D Game Table, which allows you to play D&D over the Internet. It’s a fully 3D environment that allows you to move mini’s around a map, communicate with others via voice chat, and all in all simulate the kitchen table D&D experience.
We will be charging a monthly subscription for access to all of the above after the Free Trial mode has completed (the free trial will last for at least one more month).
Here’s where we are right now:
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are up and running and are now 100 percent driven by the D&D R&D team. We’re using in-house design and development resources to make sure every article is worthy of being an official part of D&D and we feel really good about the quality of the product that we’re publishing. The way it works is that multiple times per week new articles are published (as PDFs so that they can look every bit as good as our physical book product). By the end of the month a complete issue has now been unveiled, one article at a time, and that content gets collected together into an official issue of Dragon or Dungeon Magazine. These magazines are currently in free trial mode, but we intend to start charging for them in the near future. (See below for discussion of pricing.)
The D&D Compendium is up and running in free trial mode. Right now the Compendium has data from the Player’s Handbook. Before we move to subscription mode, the Compendium will also include Dragon and Dungeon Magazine content. In addition, all of this data will be updated whenever Wizards issues official errata. (In fact, PH errata is already reflected in the current free trial.)
A couple of small bonus tools are ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them. The Ability Generator is useful for playing around with new characters. Meanwhile if you’re a DM, the Encounter Generator might be quite useful to you depending on your style. In addition, we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends.
The Character Builder and the Character Visualizer are our current priority when it comes to the suite of client applications. Each will be available for the public to try out at Gen Con as we’ll have them installed on computer kiosks both in our booth and possibly also in the Sagamore Ballroom (the main hall for actual RPG gaming). Each is functional if a little bit buggy at this stage – plenty good enough for me to use for building my character for my current campaign and almost good enough for me to authorize external playtesting. The Builder UI is probably not quite as polished as the Visualizer right now, but that’s what the current round of iteration and polish is focused on. The good news is that once we finish polishing it, the Builder will be exactly what you’re hoping it will be: a way to generate a character sheet that both makes you aware of all your choices and also does all the math for you so the resulting sheet is accurate. Like I said, they’ll be available to anyone in Indianapolis next week who wants to try them out and I’m looking forward to hearing what you guys think about them.
The current version of the Dungeon Builder is mostly done, but it’s only truly useful if you have the Game Table so you can load up your dungeon and see it, 3D terrain tiles and all.
The Game Table is the biggest, most complicated piece of the whole package and it’s going to take the longest to get right. The good news is that it’s far enough along that it’s being used by a Tuesday night campaign being run at the office. The bad news is that the players take bets on how many times it will crash each week. That’s just the way digital game development works … we’ll get there, but like I said before the Builder is currently our #1 priority. If you time things right, you might be able to get a peek at the Game Table in Indianapolis as we’ll be doing some demonstrations of it, but it’s not yet ready for general use.
I know there has been a lot of discussion of our business model and our pricing plan. We’ve been paying attention to those conversations and have decided to tweak a few things. Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
We aren’t ready to discuss our medium or long-term pricing plans, but this is what the short-term looks like.
Hopefully this answers a lot of your questions about D&DI. I’m sure it also raised some more and feel free to ask those in the forums. I’m particularly interested to understand what topics I should cover in future weeks of this column. Alternately, I’ll be at Gen Con next week so feel free to come up to me there and tell me what you think of D&DI directly.
--Randy Buehler
by Randy Buehler
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi folks,
Every week I’ll be posting an update here about the ongoing progress of D&DI. I’ll also be doing my best to give you guys sneak peeks about what’s coming down the line, glimpses at how things are getting done, and visibility into the flavor of what it’s like to work on such an awesome game. This week I’m just going to focus on facts since I know you guys are starved for information right now. In the future, I look forward to sharing some of my own D&D resume because I’m sure those of you who know me at all know me mostly as a “Magic guy.” (I was really tempted to begin this column with “Let me tell you about my character …” but I think I’ll save that for a week or two.)
First, some clarifications of the big picture: D&D Insider is a collection of distinct components, all of which are designed to help you enjoy D&D even more than you already do. Our current vision for the product includes:
The new online versions of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
A D&D Compendium that provides searchable access to rules elements from all of our published material.
A suite of small “bonus tools” that live on the web and help automate some basic tasks of being a player or DM.
A Character Builder with all the rules built in.
A Character Visualizer that lets you build a 3D model of your character, either so you can take a screen shot for your character sheet or turn it into a miniature that you will then use on the D&D Game Table.
A Dungeon Builder that allows you to construct maps to play with either on the kitchen table or on the D&D Game Table described below.
The D&D Game Table, which allows you to play D&D over the Internet. It’s a fully 3D environment that allows you to move mini’s around a map, communicate with others via voice chat, and all in all simulate the kitchen table D&D experience.
We will be charging a monthly subscription for access to all of the above after the Free Trial mode has completed (the free trial will last for at least one more month).
Here’s where we are right now:
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are up and running and are now 100 percent driven by the D&D R&D team. We’re using in-house design and development resources to make sure every article is worthy of being an official part of D&D and we feel really good about the quality of the product that we’re publishing. The way it works is that multiple times per week new articles are published (as PDFs so that they can look every bit as good as our physical book product). By the end of the month a complete issue has now been unveiled, one article at a time, and that content gets collected together into an official issue of Dragon or Dungeon Magazine. These magazines are currently in free trial mode, but we intend to start charging for them in the near future. (See below for discussion of pricing.)
The D&D Compendium is up and running in free trial mode. Right now the Compendium has data from the Player’s Handbook. Before we move to subscription mode, the Compendium will also include Dragon and Dungeon Magazine content. In addition, all of this data will be updated whenever Wizards issues official errata. (In fact, PH errata is already reflected in the current free trial.)
A couple of small bonus tools are ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them. The Ability Generator is useful for playing around with new characters. Meanwhile if you’re a DM, the Encounter Generator might be quite useful to you depending on your style. In addition, we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends.
The Character Builder and the Character Visualizer are our current priority when it comes to the suite of client applications. Each will be available for the public to try out at Gen Con as we’ll have them installed on computer kiosks both in our booth and possibly also in the Sagamore Ballroom (the main hall for actual RPG gaming). Each is functional if a little bit buggy at this stage – plenty good enough for me to use for building my character for my current campaign and almost good enough for me to authorize external playtesting. The Builder UI is probably not quite as polished as the Visualizer right now, but that’s what the current round of iteration and polish is focused on. The good news is that once we finish polishing it, the Builder will be exactly what you’re hoping it will be: a way to generate a character sheet that both makes you aware of all your choices and also does all the math for you so the resulting sheet is accurate. Like I said, they’ll be available to anyone in Indianapolis next week who wants to try them out and I’m looking forward to hearing what you guys think about them.
The current version of the Dungeon Builder is mostly done, but it’s only truly useful if you have the Game Table so you can load up your dungeon and see it, 3D terrain tiles and all.
The Game Table is the biggest, most complicated piece of the whole package and it’s going to take the longest to get right. The good news is that it’s far enough along that it’s being used by a Tuesday night campaign being run at the office. The bad news is that the players take bets on how many times it will crash each week. That’s just the way digital game development works … we’ll get there, but like I said before the Builder is currently our #1 priority. If you time things right, you might be able to get a peek at the Game Table in Indianapolis as we’ll be doing some demonstrations of it, but it’s not yet ready for general use.
I know there has been a lot of discussion of our business model and our pricing plan. We’ve been paying attention to those conversations and have decided to tweak a few things. Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
We aren’t ready to discuss our medium or long-term pricing plans, but this is what the short-term looks like.
Hopefully this answers a lot of your questions about D&DI. I’m sure it also raised some more and feel free to ask those in the forums. I’m particularly interested to understand what topics I should cover in future weeks of this column. Alternately, I’ll be at Gen Con next week so feel free to come up to me there and tell me what you think of D&DI directly.
--Randy Buehler
Just as I suspected since the release of 4E. Digital Insider doesn't exist (or at least, your link would indicate such).
$4.95 a month for them sounds even better however the new pricing structure raises the question: If you pay for a year up front what will happen if the price goes up at some point during the year?
The reduced pricing is a good move. I'm willing to pay $8 a month for Dragon and Dungeon I think...
$4.95 a month for them sounds even better [...]
Five bucks a month is about what I can justify (assuming that I also plan to buy a book every three or four months), so I'm pretty happy with this.
Of all the things offered, though, I pretty much only want Dragon, so everything else I'm just subsidizing with my subscription. At this price, I don't mind, but I'd be annoyed if it went up to $10/month with the justification being something about the virtual gaming table tools.
The compendium is also basically useless to me, as it doesn't work when I don't have net access, and more importantly, because it's impossible to browse. (It might be handy during games, but since I game with a bunch of computer geeks, we game to get away from technology for a bit. What I want digital access for is DM prep time, and the compendium as it exists is very weak for that.) I am happy to pay for the books, but the idea of offering PDF versions to those who own the books for the cost of a cup of coffee needs to be revisited.
Is anyone from WotC listening to this thread?
The reduced pricing is a good move. I'm willing to pay $8 a month for Dragon and Dungeon I think...
$4.95 a month for them sounds even better however the new pricing structure raises the question: If you pay for a year up front what will happen if the price goes up at some point during the year?
Good question, as I am wondering as well.
My guess is if you pre-pay for a 1-yr subscription, your subscription is good for the full year. When the price of the subscription goes up, you would still have a valid account, but when you renew your subscription it will be at the higher rate.
In this way early adopters will get a bit of a perk, assuming the other components are actually released and they raise the price within a year of the date you subscribe.
$4.95 a month for them sounds even better however the new pricing structure raises the question: If you pay for a year up front what will happen if the price goes up at some point during the year?
If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)
My only problem is this:
Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready.
I thought that we were going to be able to see and use these features before they were charged for! You know, sort of like testing the waters to see if they are even worth using? A 4 session/two week trial sounds good to me, but paying for it before even knowing how it works sounds kind of lame to me.
So far, so good. Its good to see that the tools are in (what seems to be) the later part of playtesting and bug-fixing. 5ish dollars a month sounds good to me, unless I have to pay it in a lump sum...
As I understand it, you pay for the entire year upfront for the $4.95 per month option. (Just under $60 for the year, I believe)
Wait, so is that price structure with the current array of products or is that the price structure for the current array + the other tools (such as the dungeon creator and virtual DnD table)?
This is the pricing for the "web-content only" subscription, which we saw a fair number of people request. Future pricing hasn't yet been announced.
I don't really care about the Character Visualizer, and that can and should wait until the Game Table is ready. If the Digital Initiative folks are looking for input as to priorities, get the Character Builder up first, Dungeon Builder next (as long as it can output 1" scale prints), and then the Visualizer and Game Table.
The pricing model looks better than what was discussed earlier, but don't turn on the charging too soon. Wizards shouldn't interpret what has been out so far as much of a beta test.
the pricing is the big thing that concerns me though, for myself id happily pay 5 dollars a month for everything, thats a decent deal, but im the type of player who would only use the game table and all that maybe once a week for a few hours. its not like an MMORPG where i would play for several hours a day.....
to me this is just a way to connect with my friends and maybe a few new ones for a weekly gaming session. really i cant see the core audience being one that expects to get the same use from this as they would something like WoW. the whole game table is useless to me if i cant get my whole group to pay for it, and all of them ot feel its not so much that they HAVE to regiment their playing to get their moneys worth.
thats just my 2 cents though.
I don't want to pay for a service that needs obvious and constant patching and editing, I don't want to "pay for beta" as they often say in MMO's. I'm honestly regretting having bought the core books because of all of the errata (I'm sorry...updates) that have already come out for the books. I really want this to be a good product. But its really hard to build a worthy for-pay online gaming service and I just haven't seen the skill in this team regarding editing or quality control to give me faith that it will be so.
Its good to hear that insider is free for at least another month. here is to hoping that Wizards keeps it that way until they can release quality out of the gate. Because they do get there.
BTW, I never had a big problem with the previous pricing plan, but I'm thrilled to see the revised one. IMO, it's completely worth it for the magazines and a few tools alone.
That does not mean you're off the hook, WOTC. "Our current vision for the product includes..." sounds frighteningly non-committal. I still expect my Game Table. ;)
That is to say:
- Dragon Magazine;
- Dungeon Magazine;
- Compendium; and
- Bonus tools
A years access to the above will thus cost about $60.
I am glad to see that the Pricing Model Directed Discussion had a good effect. It will, however, be intersting to see how further content will add to the pricing. Hopefully the price for the upper-end stays the same as originally discussed.
If someone really wasn't interested in the other DDI products, just the Dungeon and Dragon content, would they be able to subscribe to just that portion of DDI?
Thanks,
~~JM
One question I have about the subscription pricing options:
If someone really wasn't interested in the other DDI products, just the Dungeon and Dragon content, would they be able to subscribe to just that portion of DDI?
That's the intent of the Web-Content pricing plan that Randy announced at the $4.95 per month price point (for a year membership).
If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)
In other words, you seem to be setting up different levels where you can buy access to one thing but not get the other stuff? (I could get access to Compendium and the online magazines, for example, but not have access to the other content like the Visualizer and Game Table.)
$5 dollars a month for both magazines would be fine for me... Except that the magazines are, in my opinion, of very poor quality overall.
To date there is little to no editing apparently performed on an article before it is uploaded (at least not by anybody who is familiar with the rules or even has access to a PHB), and even after the community dissects the articles -- finding all sorts of mathematical errors and mechanical issues and rules conflicts -- the articles are compiled basically as they were when first uploaded; errors and all.
I have not gone and made up my own lists about what has been changed in this or that article, but apparently tons of it is going through "broken." If the community will have to constantly comb through every line of each article that contains any kind of rules information, then I am sorry to say I don't think the magazines are going to be right for me.
Additionally, old problems still remain, such as the inability for older issues of the e-zines to finally be compiled into single PDFs, and the latest glitch with the compiled file sizes being exponentially larger than they should be, but that will (correct me if I'm wrong) apparently not be changed back to smaller sizes except "for future issues." Updates are also no longer performed on Monday/Wednesday/Friday as was once stipulated, but are now kind of random days and times.
It's great and all that the magazines are "rules legal" and made by the R&D department, but that doesn't mean you guys are able to put together a good magazine. If the past issues are addressed, and there is a significant increase in quality before the charging period starts, I may reconsider -- I want to like the products -- but it is very hard to at this point in time.
The Compendium is basically useless to me because of the way it is set up -- I greatly preferred the online SRDs of old because they could actually be navigated and the search tools could find what you typed in. The most important use for an online search tool would be for rules which you want to find fast, but currently you get nothing explaining the mechanics of things like Opportunity Attacks or Coup de Grace's if you type those in, simply tangential mentions in feats and classes.
In other words, you seem to be setting up different levels where you can buy access to one thing but not get the other stuff? (I could get access to Compendium and the online magazines, for example, but not have access to the other content like the Visualizer and Game Table.)
My interpretation of this announcement is that there will be two levels of subscription.
The web content only likely replaces the non Insiders able to purchase individual ezines, it is a little more then just the ezines but not that much more.
The second tier would be Game Table, etc that would include web content.
Perhaps they might consider a 3rd tier in between web content and DM tools, that being player tools.
A little more waiting until we know more.
Ok well I'm very happy about it.
But did I miss something? Did you say you're going to charge us before you release anything else for us to work with?
Yay! Response! /dance /cheer /dance /cheer
Ok well I'm very happy about it.
But did I miss something? Did you say you're going to charge us before you release anything else for us to work with?
They are going to charge you for what works now. Setting aside discussion about how well web content works right now, that belongs in other threads.
When the tools are completed and if you want them the price will go up.
At least this is my best guess.
Not to be a spoil sport but what exactly would we get if we don't subscribe? After all most of the Dragon content was free up until 4th ed was announced, things like excerpts, web enhancements and other such things were really just adverts for the products and stuff that didn't fit into the book for space reasons. Long ago there where some statements that there would be content on the web sight that would not require a fee, is that still the plan or not?
Well there is some content you can get now without being logged in as an Insider. I would expect that would continue to be accessible, the odds are the same level of access would remain. Off hand I would guess the announcements of products, the editorials, perhaps Sage advice and ask Wizards. I have not tested every link to see which are available to everyone and only available to Insiders.
A couple of small bonus tools are ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them. The Ability Generator is useful for playing around with new characters. Meanwhile if you’re a DM, the Encounter Generator might be quite useful to you depending on your style. In addition, we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends.
So, where can we find these "small bonus tools?" Will they be released after GenCon?
A couple of small bonus tools are ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them. The Ability Generator is useful for playing around with new characters. Meanwhile if you’re a DM, the Encounter Generator might be quite useful to you depending on your style. In addition, we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends.
Where?
I believe that this article will make a huge improvement in the public's impression of the state of DDI.
This seems tailored a bit more for those of us that play at a table and dont need all the virtual table and mini business.
In terms of mid and full tier pricing, I'd love to see an option that included everything except the virtual game table. Actually, an option for players that left out the DM tools like the dungeon builder would be nice too, since not everyone DMs, and it feels like a waste to pay for features we won't use. Maybe leave out Dungeon magazine as well? Not sure about that last part.
Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode:
You mean you are going to charge for the free trial?????
Please give me your definition of the word "free".
The current version of the Dungeon Builder is mostly done, but it’s only truly useful if you have the Game Table so you can load up your dungeon and see it, 3D terrain tiles and all.
Why? Did you decide to discard all use for this for those people not wanting to use it in conjunction with Game Table? What happened to the non-subscriber version that would let you make tiles and print maps that has a better interface than the existing tile builder javascript mess?
The Character Builder and the Character Visualizer are our current priority when it comes to the suite of client applications. Each will be available for the public to try out at Gen Con
Meaningless to me. Still says to me that all contact with these items will be subjective views of those who are already just excited as they are at a con, but not a real chance for the people that would be most likely to use them, those that cannot travel thus the reason behind DDI and Game Table, to look at them at all.
Well it has been a year since first being mentioned, so by GenCon 2010 maybe the Game Table itself will preview at GenCon.
Yes the news is still lacking and doubt still remains, but I do commend you Randy, IF you keep the commitment to actually give weekly updates to the public via the website.
Also a very good choice to cut the price since but this is a bit confusing....
The reduced pricing is a good move. I'm willing to pay $8 a month for Dragon and Dungeon I think...
$4.95 a month for them sounds even better however the new pricing structure raises the question: If you pay for a year up front what will happen if the price goes up at some point during the year?
By law they should not be allowed to charge you more. They may be able to cancel your subscription and issue you a refund for the remaining prorated months. I think if they did cancel because you refuse to pay extra when your contract specified a set payment amount then they would HAVE TO issue you a refund.
Otherwise after the initial year they can change the price for the next year, likewise each month they could change the price, but when you pay a fixed price, it must be honored for the lifetime of the contract or the lifetime of the product. You cannot be forced to pay extra for something you already paid for.
This is the pricing for the "web-content only" subscription, which we saw a fair number of people request. Future pricing hasn't yet been announced.
Please define "web content only".
Is there some portion of DDI that will not be online and you must somehow pay some subscription fee for it? Will DDI have some physical product?
Their is no pleasing some of you people. At this point im convinced WoTC can make DDI free and pay you 10 bucks a month to sue it and you will still find somthing to ***** about.
It is just that so little information has been given in the past, that since much has changed all we now has been thrown out, and we must start over fromt he beginning asking questions about what the changes mean and what the plans are now.
The fact information will be given on a weekly basis is good, but we need some clarifications of what we are being given for those not in the WotC offices to understand what is being said.
Also, looks like they reduced the prices accross the board. Thanks.
Its too much for me. It will be cheaper to buy the Power books (which is what the Compendium would save me money on), while the Dungeon magazines are almost completely useless because my group doesn't like WotC adventures.
With Dragon I found the following articles useful. Issue #364:
* Playing Warforged
* Forest of Flesh
* Class Acts: Wizards
* Wolves of Maldeen
* Creature Incarnations: Kobolds
Issue #365:
* Artificer
* Dolurrh's Dawn
Issue #366:
* Wish Upon a Star
* Trapped
So ultimately its not worth it for me. I'm happy to partake while free, but I'll be dropping it once they start charging.
Please define "web content only".
Basically, the stuff that's available for free right now: Dragon articles, Dungeon articles, & the Compendium.
The fancier stuff like the character visualizer, v-minis and v tabletop will be a different (read: higher) pricing system.
I was really thinking that the eventual character visualizer, v-tabletop etc were going to get a free trial period as well, but now I guess not. Kind of risky to subscribe to things sight unseen IMO.
D&DI for $7.95/month
For which you can get a stack of magazines full of content they cut out of the books or isn't ready for publication. Or you can just pop on once every six months, pay the $8, and get 12 magazines.
And the D&D Compendium: which is like having the pdf of the books and the ctrl-F function. Only one keeps costing you more and more and more the longer its used.
I like the update but and disappointed by the tone that seems to suggest it's still going to be a while before the actual content of D&DI is online. Especially since this seems like a delaying tactic to get money to subsidize their loss.
I mean, I'm enjoying the articles but I wouldn't pay money for them, especially after getting them for free for six months.
I wonder how much content the WotC site will have after this, with almost everything being thrown at Dungeon mag & Dragon mag to keep its content up.
I think the pricing is awesome. Thanks guys! My only concern is if I sign up for a full year at the $5, will i be able to upgrade my subscription to the 'full' subscription when the applications are ready? Just pay the difference? As long as this upgrade path is available then I have nothing further to really say! Great job.
Leave it to a Scorpion to Ninja my question. ;)
If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)
Is it possible to upgrade your subscription at any time? So if the client apps come out you can get the next level, and pay the difference between the web content and the full subscription?
Or are you stuck with the old subscription, or do you have to get a new one and the money payed in advance is lost? (I don't guess so, but it would be nice to know exactly how it is handled...)
Basically, the stuff that's available for free right now: Dragon articles, Dungeon articles, & the Compendium.
The fancier stuff like the character visualizer, v-minis and v tabletop will be a different (read: higher) pricing system.
I was really thinking that the eventual character visualizer, v-tabletop etc were going to get a free trial period as well, but now I guess not. Kind of risky to subscribe to things sight unseen IMO.
Oh so they are going to start charging now for what is free, and then sucker people into yearly subscriptions for higher priced things without geting to see them unless they go to some convention and stand in line hoping they get a turn with them?
Um...no.
It seems like you buy this trial material and then have to extend beyond that to get the other things, so you MUST buy what is currently free later.
I think they still have their heads stuck up their....accounting ledgers...too far to listen to the customers if that is the case.
Any idea about the payment methods? Will Paypal be available for example?
I really hope Paypal is available. Being able to easily and securely pay is a maker or breaker for me
> In addition, all of this data will be updated whenever
> Wizards issues official errata. (In fact, PH errata is already reflected in the
> current free trial.)
As of today the 7th of August the official errata of Blade Cascade is not reflected in the Compendium. This serves as an example.
Additionally i do not find the definition of a Bull Rush as described in the combat chapter of the PH in the Compendium. I am sure there is more, e.g. charge and grab.
I won't promise anything more.
Personally, as a show of good faith, I truly hope that WotC releases a working version of the dungeon builder, character builder, and game table before they plan to go live on the pay plan.
Wizard's reputation could use to restore our faith.
EDIT: My mistake, I misunderstood what I read. If I am now understanding it correctly, you are going to charge us $7.95/mo, or $4.95/mo x12, for what you are offering right now, plus maybe a few minor tools? No, I am sorry.
- If you buy the Web-Content Only Subscription Package for six-months or a year prior to the other D&DI features becoming available, how will it work in terms of upgrading your subscription once the virtual tabletop becomes available? I'm guessing we'd be charged the difference each month in the plans, but that's just my guess.
- Randy mentioned that the Ability and Encounter Generators are ready to go live. When are they going up and where will we find them on the website? (There's currently no tab in the D&DI section for either of those items.)
Thanks!
Great to see some more news about what's coming in the D&DI pipeline. I have two quick questions, which you may or may not yet have the answer to (but it can't hurt to ask):
- If you buy the Web-Content Only Subscription Package for six-months or a year prior to the other D&DI features becoming available, how will it work in terms of upgrading your subscription once the virtual tabletop becomes available? I'm guessing we'd be charged the difference each month in the plans, but that's just my guess.
I am guessing they will be separate things any not needing upgrading. You get the web-content and order the other separate so people can choose. But that is a guess.
- Randy mentioned that the Ability and Encounter Generators are ready to go live. When are they going up and where will we find them on the website? (There's currently no tab in the D&DI section for either of those items.)
In the DDi section there was a link that said Bonus Tools for a little while the other day, but it has now disappeared. I would wager those things would be there when that link returns.
Thanks!
Answer in red.
- Yes, I would pay $5/month to have access to Dungeon and Dragon magazines.
- The rest of the suite; not so much. Frankly, I've found fan-created tools online that do a superior job and are free.
- I do not consider the Compendium, by any means, "complete."
- Judging by the fact that I see no links to these tools which are "ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them," I remain largely unimpressed.
- This statement, "...we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends," also causes me some annoyance. Aren't you responsible for the duration of the trail period? Couldn't you simply extend it to insure that people have a chance to try it out?
- I would think that the 10-day free trial advertised in the core rulebooks would be for a completely functional suite of tools, not a sampling of what may or may not ultimately be available. Of course, it is labeled "some restrictions apply," so I guess that's your failsafe.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm actually surprised that you're offering this much, but I believe that it should have been ready from the outset.
So far this gets an A for intentions but a C- for execution.
And typically, despite this being a sticked "official" thread, there has been no response from the company on where the bonus tools are, despite half a dozen different posters asking.
Ok, to summarize: your gonna start charging us for use of the tools before the tools are ready after you had promised us a "free" trial period to use the tools. Also, ALL tools will require a subscription to use AFTER it had been posted in a previous release that stated the character and dungeon builder, visualizer and compendium would remain "free" tools and the subscription would be required to access the magazines and game table. So you offer us gold to get us in the store then give us lead instead. Need better business management in my opinion.I think $5 for the online content is a fair price. I'll likley up for 1 year and see how I like it. So far, I've found most of the Dragon articles to be of high quality, though not all. Dungeon has been more hit and miss for me so far.
I'm pleased they are making progress, and I'm pleased they are communicating again.
If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)
If someone pre-pays for a year and in say four months the gaming table comes out. Obviously there's going to be an additional cost for the rest of the tools with D&DI. Will that one year subscription to Dungeon and Dragon be taken into account with a customer's payment options for the rest of D&DI?
IMHO, this is all fine and good, and I do appreciate the price drop, but my faith is gone. You can count on $7.95 from me for a one month personal trial when *everything* is done and ready to use.
....
EDIT: My mistake, I misunderstood what I read. If I am now understanding it correctly, you are going to charge us $7.95/mo, or $4.95/mo x12, for what you are offering right now, plus maybe a few minor tools? No, I am sorry.
I hear you on this (and it's been repeated before in this thread).
The $8-4 really would be a nice price for everything. But *just* for the magazines with everything else extra (and possibly back to the $15 they were suggesting earlier) is just too much. The game table, visualizer, and generator is not worth and additional $7/month.
* * *
Here's what they should do:
They should have a free show-off period for each new applications as they launch.
ie: here's the new visualizer. For the next 8 days you can try it for free (but only it).
That way everyone sees what the products are without having to sink a monthly payment to try it. If it's as good as they seem to think it is, they should have no problems hooking increasing numbers of people as each new product is demo-ed.
And that way there's none of the hesitation that comes with having to pay $8-15 for something you're unsure of.
- If I buy a 12 month subscription, and other tools become available at a different price point, will my current subscription price be counted towards the new pricing model?
- Where are these new bonus applications (ability generator and encounter generator) and when can I see them?
- What payment methods will there be? Will Paypal be accepted?
I'll post later on today with what I find out. Thanks for the questions.
-Mike
$5-$8 a month for "web content" is pretty silly. From what I can gather, public opinion about these features that have already been available for free for some time (excluding the tools) have been hardly better than lukewarm. Before you could even think to start charging for these features, articles would have to be cleaned up, the compendium sorted out and streamlined, these "tools" to be available etc.
While it's been a few weeks for the magazines and compendium to be free additions to the site, what's the harm in leaving them free? How devoid of interesting articles is the Wizards site going to be? What's the point in charging for a (right now) lousy search feature when there are better, free alternatives elsewhere? While the updates have been sparse the last couple months, I'm sure the subscription fee's will be up and ready in no time, right?
And on top of all of this, we are expected to pay before the final product is available. Plain and simple: we are paying for an unfinished product. Either finish the product or forget your "pricing schemes".
Nobody in their right mind should give you money on good faith. Likewise, I don't think anyone should pay for features they won't use. I enjoy the magazine articles from time to time, but I find little use for the compendium. What's the portion of that in the $5-$8 pricing plan? Figure that out, and offer me a way to subscribe to only what I want.. ie..
Assuming a monthly subscription
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month
Here, you still offer all the products for $15 a month, but allow players to pay for only what they want. It's cheaper for them, you still get your money for the tools they use, everybody is happy.
1st, learn from your mistake and try not to over promise in the future.
2nd, please, please, please give us both labeled and unlabeled maps in Dungeon for player handouts.
After that I am relatively happy with the current state of things.
From what I've seen so far, I'd definitely buy Dragon monthly but not Dungeon.
This is how I feel the pricing scheme should work..
$5-$8 a month for "web content" is pretty silly. From what I can gather, public opinion about these features that have already been available for free for some time (excluding the tools) have been hardly better than lukewarm. Before you could even think to start charging for these features, articles would have to be cleaned up, the compendium sorted out and streamlined, these "tools" to be available etc.
While it's been a few weeks for the magazines and compendium to be free additions to the site, what's the harm in leaving them free? How devoid of interesting articles is the Wizards site going to be? What's the point in charging for a (right now) lousy search feature when there are better, free alternatives elsewhere? While the updates have been sparse the last couple months, I'm sure the subscription fee's will be up and ready in no time, right?
And on top of all of this, we are expected to pay before the final product is available. Plain and simple: we are paying for an unfinished product. Either finish the product or forget your "pricing schemes".
Nobody in their right mind should give you money on good faith. Likewise, I don't think anyone should pay for features they won't use. I enjoy the magazine articles from time to time, but I find little use for the compendium. What's the portion of that in the $5-$8 pricing plan? Figure that out, and offer me a way to subscribe to only what I want.. ie..
Assuming a monthly subscription
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month
Here, you still offer all the products for $15 a month, but allow players to pay for only what they want. It's cheaper for them, you still get your money for the tools they use, everybody is happy.
I really like what you laid out, though personally it seems to me that Wizards did promise some of these items would be free, like the character builder and dungeon builder, etc.
my thoughts are there are two core services being offered here that people would be willing to pay for.
1 the game table
2 the magazine subscriptions.
4.95 for each of those is reasonable to me, that way casual gamers who want to play with their group 2-3 times a month dont feel gouged, and those who like the magazine articles can get them.
you still charge 10 dollars a month to those who want them, and you still keep the (what i interpreted as) promises of many of the tools being free to the table top gamers, but the real neat stuff is still best used online.
Top 3 questions I'll try to get answered for you today when I get into the office this morning:
[snip]
I'll post later on today with what I find out. Thanks for the questions.
-Mike
Thanks for taking the groups questions to heart and back to corporate.
As I stated in Didier's blog months ago, I need the ability to have ALL of
a characters rules available in one place, so the DM tools is going to
be a good sell to folks like me... How long until we get to start using it
for real? I dont mind a tiered release of the tools, but maybe get on an
actual product release schedule like the hardback rulebooks? (We know
when PHB2 etc is coming out) Thanks again.
Doug Emes
RPGA 830837
On a side note, $5/mo seem adequate for Dungeon and Dragon magazines, given what I've seen of the content so far.
However, I'd really like to see the Compendium remain free. The rest seems reasonable to charge far, but if the Compendium is just a reference, without any explanation of the rules and how they work, it seems like there should be some way for people who purchased the books or pdfs to access it without paying for a subscription.
What I would like to see is something along the lines of
DDI Level 1: $7.95 a month
--------------------------
* Access to Dungeon and Dragon magazine online
* Access to DDI Compendium online
* Access to online Ability and Encounter generators
DDI Level 2: $15 a month (or whatever it will be)
----------------------------------------------
* All features from DDI level 1
* Acess to Online Dungeon Builder
* Access to Online Character Generator
* Access to Online Character Visualizer
* Access to DDI Game Table
Is something like that so hard to do?
I won't be paying until the full suite is out. I won't be paying $15 for the whole thing. I'm fine with slashing that in half for a month, or cutting it down to $5 for a year. I won't be paying $15 for a product I'll use only 4 days in a month.
I thought you guys had woken up about the pricing but I guess I was wrong. *sigh* Ok. What can you tell us about v-mini and tile pricing now that we've been thoroughly dissappointed by the new pricing plan information (unless I'm completely reading this wrong)?
- If I buy a 12 month subscription, and other tools become available at a different price point, will my current subscription price be counted towards the new pricing model?
We will of course honor the web-content subscription for the duration, regardless of the future. When additional applications are launched, we do intend to charge for them in some manner, but I don't have any further details to share.
- Where are these new bonus applications (ability generator and encounter generator) and when can I see them?
I believe they are more or less ready to go and hope to have them available before GenCon.
- What payment methods will there be? Will Paypal be accepted?
We are partnering with Digital River who offers a pretty expansive suite of payment options, much more than we currently offer with Magic Online (which already supports Paypal.)
I would greatly apreciate more information about it's current production status. Mainly, an estimation of when it will be available.
Thank You
Where are these bonus tools that are mentioned? I haven't seen them anywhere.
On a side note, $5/mo seem adequate for Dungeon and Dragon magazines, given what I've seen of the content so far.
However, I'd really like to see the Compendium remain free. The rest seems reasonable to charge far, but if the Compendium is just a reference, without any explanation of the rules and how they work, it seems like there should be some way for people who purchased the books or pdfs to access it without paying for a subscription.
If memory serves me rightly, the Compendium was supposed to be freely searchable but the return values were supposed to be page numbers in the associated book if you were not logged into D&DI. If you were logged in you would get full text values.
Useful even if you were not a subscriber. However the rules are not there, as in combat, movement, leveling, second wind, and so on. Apparently the effects of the skills and feats and class powers listed don't matter; or they are trying to keep someone from making an "SRD" type document. I think that's a major omission. Oh I'm going to pay my subscription fee. Oh I'm going to continue to come here. And I will continue to yell at my monitor.
Hello, I have been anxiously awaiting the release of the D&DI Character Visualizer.
I would greatly apreciate more information about it's current production status. Mainly, an estimation of when it will be available.
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
that would be awesome, it would be great to see everyone's opinions on how it feels and works.
i'm looking forward to the tools that will be released in 6 days!
So to be clear: will each player, as well as the DM, have to get subscriptions? If I'm a DM and have 4 other players (all remote via the internet), that's a lot to have to pay just to get the party going. Can we share a single login? (I'm guessing not)
Alternatively, maybe there can be a "group", "campaign" or "party" pricing where you pay a single lumped sum for your whole group (up to "x" licenses) and then everyone gets access.
Just trying to think of an easier way for existing groups to get started without each having to pay a monthly fee individually.
Thats what several of us are waiting for. Clarification on the pricing model.
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
This Visualiser thing is just bugging me (and probably irrationally, but hey). It's the equivalent of a car company saying "Check out these sweet hubcaps you can put on your car! You'll be able to rent them first, but we're not done with the rest of the car yet and we don't know when it'll be finished, but we're dedicating some primo resources to these awesome hubcaps! I guess in the meantime you could use them for ashtrays."
Seriously, what's the point of pushing the Visualiser out first? It doesn't actually do anything, and it's certainly not useful without either the Character Builder or the Game Table.
Is it gonna have more than player character graphics? Are people going to be able to start making monster minis with it? Can you actually make a v-mini model without tying it to a character through the CB? Please tell me this thing has some standalone use other than distracting people with shinies.
Track record..
Scales of War goes live... wizards.com crashes.
4e character sheet PDF goes live... wizards.com crashes.
There are more crashes then that I'm sure, but those are the 2 big releases IMHO that are worth pointing out.
Wizards.com has a tradition of having script errors and memory failures on a weekend basis. WHY should I start paying for stuff they've giving already for free if I can't access it reliably?
I'm sorry but the main attraction is the game table and god only knows when that will be ready. Wizards has to get their **** together and get their site stable with 99.95% up time before they can start asking for money.
There is no word on whether the pricing has changed from the $15 model or not. Care to clarify?
Thats what several of us are waiting for. Clarification on the pricing model.
There is word but it's implied, and WotC has already stated they will not confirm further.
There was never suppose to be a reduced, pre-finished, pricing model, and with all the issues, delays and complaints, it came to pass.
Now, I'm not saying WotC needs the money, but if everyone masses to the new pre-model and signs up, that's a good sign for them. It shows our continued interest, and in doing so, it may very well strengthen their resolve to maintain the past model of $14.95/mo plus some discount at 3/mo and 1/yr.
If we however do not flock to the pre-model, and continue to speak out against the $14.95, it may very well force their hand to reconsider the final price.
If we however do not flock to the pre-model, and continue to speak out against the $14.95, it may very well force their hand to reconsider the final price.
Well, as noted above, I'm happy with the current price and current offerings. If it goes to $14.95/month and this "web only" option is dropped, I'll cancel as fast as I can type.
Well, as noted above, I'm happy with the current price and current offerings. If it goes to $14.95/month and this "web only" option is dropped, I'll cancel as fast as I can type.
I too would subscribe to the full set of tools at $7.95/mo, I'd even subscribe to $7.85/mo for the broken apart (ala carte) model that dexterk03 posted above.
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month
However, I will not subscribe prior to the final release on the grounds of broken delivery and promises.
I want to see, want to give them a chance to prove to me, why I should feel their product is worth anything more than the current free price it has now.
Even when all the current DDI Apps are completed and Added this should be the price..It should not go up or change.
I am sorry but what you are offering for DDI is not worth the same as a MMO.
The old pricing scheme mentioned for the FULL DDI with all it apps was by far overcharging...
This price is more accurate of what it will be worth.
Please consider what you are offering for DDI compared to other Products like MMOs that are the same price of what you were offering. DO you seriously believe the upkeep for the Apps you are going to have for DDI is the same as a MMO?
With this pricing scheme you will have many more customers more likely to pay for DDI and the numbers will make up for the lower price.
I want to see, want to give them a chance to prove to me, why I should feel their product is worth anything more than the current free price it has now.
I feel like they've already proved it with the Dragon magazine articles to date. There's some nitpicking over numerical errors and some sloppy editing, but overall, really solid material. I was really disappointed by the feel of the 4E PH (especially compared to the very solid DMG), and the Dragon articles totally reassure me that this edition is going to be not only okay, but awesome. So really, they don't just provide incremental value to me, but in some sense are what sells 4E as a whole to me. (At least until PH2 and MM2 are out, and maybe some of the splatbooks.)
I think it'd be wise of WotC to keep producing this content for free to draw more people into the core 4E, but I understand that designers and developers have to get paid, so I'm willing to pay a nominal fee for it.
I think it'd be wise of WotC to keep producing this content for free to draw more people into the core 4E, but I understand that designers and developers have to get paid, so I'm willing to pay a nominal fee for it.
The question comes what do you think is a Nominal fee?..
I was just surprised that people thought the Pricing of $10.95-14.95 as they were charging for the FULL DDI was worth what they were offering. To me it is not.
But if Wizards get enough people who think it is worth it then they will just go back to the price when DDI is completed. I would be very disappointed then because to me it is not worth that much.
If I wait several months before subscribing to the "online content", when I do subscribe will I have access to the previous months' Dungeon and Dragon issues?
If I subscribe for a month, and then miss a few months, and then re-subscribe will I have access to the months I first subscribed, the months I missed, and the future months?
If yes to above, what is to prevent people from subscribing for one month at the end of a 6 month or 12 month period and accessing all the previous year's materials that others paid much more for, other than earlier access to the materials?
Will only those who are currently subscribed for the month have access to the Dungeon and Dragon articles and the issues will not be available for future subscribers? If so, will the previous issues be available for purchase separately?
Questions
If I wait several months before subscribing to the "online content", when I do subscribe will I have access to the previous months' Dungeon and Dragon issues?
If I subscribe for a month, and then miss a few months, and then re-subscribe will I have access to the months I first subscribed, the months I missed, and the future months?
If yes to above, what is to prevent people from subscribing for one month at the end of a 6 month or 12 month period and accessing all the previous year's materials that others paid much more for, other than earlier access to the materials?
Will only those who are currently subscribed for the month have access to the Dungeon and Dragon articles and the issues will not be available for future subscribers? If so, will the previous issues be available for purchase separately?
As far as I understand the current plans, once content goes fee you only have access to content released while you are in good standing, i.e. paid up.
You still might be able to purchase past issues of the ezines for 3.00 (?) each for times you were not a paid Insider.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are up and running and are now 100 percent driven by the D&D R&D team. We’re using in-house design and development resources to make sure every article is worthy of being an official part of D&D and we feel really good about the quality of the product that we’re publishing.
The emphasis of the last sentence is mine. This made me laugh and I wondered if Mr. Buehler had read through "Rescue at Rivenroar". And, I wondered if anyone from D&D R&D has looked at our questions and the list of shortcomings we've articulated about the first part of the adventure path.
I've never been a Dragon reader. Maybe it's phenomenal now and makes up for some of the issues that "Rescue at Rivenroar" suffers. Again, I want to run Scales of War. I earnestly hope that the problems of the adventure path's first installment are not systemic.
I'm excited about the D&DI. I think it's quite reasonably priced, and I look forward to all the future components.
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
If they manage to get a demo machine (or machines) up in the sagamore ballroom (where the RPGA games and D&D minis will be hosted) I'll be sure to write about them in the blog I've been asked to keep up.
Won't be as cool as a video, but I can probably get a couple pics and some text up faster than G_0 can probably edit and splice (and fake?
) some video. Err. . . assuming my blogging will permit pics. I don't really have all the details just yet.
If they manage to get a demo machine (or machines) up in the sagamore ballroom (where the RPGA games and D&D minis will be hosted) I'll be sure to write about them in the blog I've been asked to keep up.
Won't be as cool as a video, but I can probably get a couple pics and some text up faster than G_0 can probably edit and splice (and fake?
Err. . . assuming my blogging will permit pics. I don't really have all the details just yet.
It depends on whom you are being provided with the webpage as to if you can upload images. Though most of those things these days they call blogs in general are not weblogs, they are almost a bloody message board just few (or one) users are allowed to start threads.
Some websites might prohibit some kinds of image formats and so on, check the terms of use.
It depends on whom you are being provided with the webpage as to if you can upload images. Though most of those things these days they call blogs in general are not weblogs, they are almost a bloody message board just few (or one) users are allowed to start threads.
Some websites might prohibit some kinds of image formats and so on, check the terms of use.
Yeah, like I said, I dunno where they'll be sticking my blogs. They did ask me to confirm my message board username, however, so I won't be surprised if I just get a semi-private forum to post in, but, hey, these forums allow images, so no problem there.
Yeah, like I said, I dunno where they'll be sticking my blogs. They did ask me to confirm my message board username, however, so I won't be surprised if I just get a semi-private forum to post in, but, hey, these forums allow images, so no problem there.
Likely, since that's what they gave to the developers for their "blogs." Why should you get more?
Seriously, what's the point of pushing the Visualiser out first? It doesn't actually do anything, and it's certainly not useful without either the Character Builder or the Game Table.
Is it gonna have more than player character graphics? Are people going to be able to start making monster minis with it? Can you actually make a v-mini model without tying it to a character through the CB? Please tell me this thing has some standalone use other than distracting people with shinies.
No, and that's the whole point. However, I have seen a lot of people that are clamoring for that particular shiny. I don't work for Wizards, probably will never work for Wizards (given my rather vehement criticism of them of late), and have no idea, but I suspect that the visualizer is the closest thing to being fully ready, and that's why it is being slated for first release.
For me, the visualizer would be fun for about an hour, until I pushed the envelope to find all of its limitations and then decided that there are better and more powerful programs available that I don't have to pay a subscription for. Personally, I want details on this thing before I'm willing to spend money for it.
- Can you have different poses for your character and, if so, do you select from a predesignated selection of poses, and can you create your own?
- Are faces built by selecting from an selection of faces, or are they built piece-by-piece (eyes, nose, mouth, eyebrows, etc.)? How large is the selection? Do races other than humans have different facial features from humans? Are the eyes of elves different in design from the eyes for humans, or is there one collection of faces to use for any non-dragonborn race?
- Can I have a character that is portly, or unusually skinny? How about a characters that is obese, or overly muscular? Can I create a character with the frame of a sumo wrestler?
- How much control do we have over the ability to recolor elements? Can we recolor each and every little thing, if desired? If I wanted to have a character whose trim on his scabbard was bright green, could I do it?
- Are we limited to equipment that is found in the Player's Handbook. or will it be expanded to include equipment from Adventurer's Vault?
- Can I change my character's body frame beyond a preselected value? For example, could I increase the bust size of my elf, if desired?
- Do characters look attractive (though you could create one as ugly, of course), or do they resemble mutant crickets?
You mean you are going to charge for the free trial?????
Please give me your definition of the word "free".
I will, as soon as you give me your definition of "trial".
I won't be paying $15 for a product I'll use only 4 days in a month.
4 times a month to game, at 4+ hours per session, is less than $1 per hour.
And you're never going to use the tools other than those 4 times to game? You won't read the articles, use the character creation tools to conceptualize different characters, won't use the Compendium instead of buying the physical source books, won't use the dungeon creation tool to plan out new campaigns, etc...?
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
YouTube videos of all of the applications on display at GenCon or other future events would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks GZ!
4 times a month to game, at 4+ hours per session, is less than $1 per hour.
And you're never going to use the tools other than those 4 times to game? You won't read the articles, use the character creation tools to conceptualize different characters, won't use the Compendium instead of buying the physical source books, won't use the dungeon creation tool to plan out new campaigns, etc...?
People say the same thing about MMOs when that argument is brought up.. But an MMO costs Significantly more to develop then these tools and the upkeep is significantly more, so $10-$15 a month is not what DDI is worth.
What they are offering now is more closer to what it is worth.
4 times a month to game, at 4+ hours per session, is less than $1 per hour.
And you're never going to use the tools other than those 4 times to game? You won't read the articles, use the character creation tools to conceptualize different characters, won't use the Compendium instead of buying the physical source books, won't use the dungeon creation tool to plan out new campaigns, etc...?
Pretty much, I haven't so far. I can't speak for Kyros, but...
- I've glanced through the Dragon and Dungeon articles, but with one exception, haven't used any of the material (whereas, when they were in printed form and I could read and use them without having to print them myself, I used them regularly).
- I haven't made much use of any of the character creators for 3.5, because most do not allow the level of customization I require in my games.
- I haven't used the Compendium because it is incomplete and slower than simply opening the book.
- Dungeon Tiles are too limited to be of any practical use. I needed a round tower the other day and they were no help at all. I also could not use them to layout battles in the haunted manor my characters are getting ready to explore.
- I have dungeon creation tools that are free (no subscription fee; ever!) that work every bit as well. Better even, since they exist already!
4 times a month to game, at 4+ hours per session, is less than $1 per hour.
And you're never going to use the tools other than those 4 times to game? You won't read the articles, use the character creation tools to conceptualize different characters, won't use the Compendium instead of buying the physical source books, won't use the dungeon creation tool to plan out new campaigns, etc...?
1.) The Compendium will not replace the physical books because it will not have all of the material that the physical books have. If it did the price might be more reasonable, but it's been stated that the Compendium will only be a glorified, yet ironically, abridged reference, which is unfortunate.
2.) I don't think anyone is arguing that $15 is a princely sum, we're arguing that it simply doesn't add up to other $15 digital offers, or to similar digital tools. I.E. the whole a mainstream M.M.O.R.P.G. is typically $15 or FG is a one time fee with group and player options argument.
1.) The Compendium will not replace the physical books because it will not have all of the material that the physical books have. If it did the price might be more reasonable, but it's been stated that the Compendium will only be a glorified, yet ironically, abridged reference, which is unfortunate.
2.) I don't think anyone is arguing that $15 is a princely sum, we're arguing that it simply doesn't add up to other $15 digital offers, or to similar digital tools. I.E. the whole a mainstream M.M.O.R.P.G. is typically $15 or FG is a one time fee with group and player options argument.
This I agree with,
But I am afraid that once DDI is full up and running WotC will go back to what they said they would charge, which is sad because I do want to use the tools, just not willing to pay that price for them, I would feel Cheated and taken advantage of if I did.
I hope I am wrong.
I organize and participate in games for a small living (on top of a more permanent career at sea) and find that the suggested pricing plan would bring flocks of my gamers and friends to insider. The biggest problem that there has been is the relative difficulty in navigating the site as is, and as everyone has seemed to comment that the compendium is more a on-site at the table reference source as browsing is highly annoying and mainly pointless.
From all the discussions over the table, my group are very excited about all the tools suggested, especially the character builder. The character visualizer is a touchy subject however as most like to draw their own and feel more connected to it then, whereas the rest are ambivalent as they have more focus on the build and role of the characters rather than the look. So we would be more interested in the Character builder as an (hopefully) easy tool to build legal characters without the typical.. oops i rolled 7.. lets just make that a 10 type of play which we describe of newbs and have edged out of the groups i play in.
For myself as DM I am literally dying for as many tools as possible to make my life easier, as three adventures a week takes most of my time to find, adjust and prepare. The dungeon builder will cut our game times in half as currently most of it is spent with me placing the minatures and outlining any structures/obstructions and obviously missing one or two out which are sometimes vital
. so i need this badly.All in all an exciting outlook for 4th ed.
I find the books a bit fluffy, and a struggle to adapt to, but it will come. I will fall in love as I did with 3.5 I am sure.
Thanks guys :D Keep up the good work
Dungeon and Dragon are not nearly as satisfying as an online product as they were in print form. That sacrifice was only made remotely tempting by the promise that they would be a part of a giant online package filled with new and wonderful applications that would let you play online, create digital minis, etc. The fact that you launched without those things running, doesn't imbue confidence in the product. For my gaming group, I suspect that none of us will pay to "try out" these features when they come along.
If we can have at least one month of the free trail with the full package of insider up and running, then you'd have a chance to sell us on it. Ending the free trial before Insider is fully featured will pretty much make my decision for me. I'm not paying for half a product and I'm not signing on for it later if I can't even try it out without having to put money down.
My reading is that they are going to start charging for the stuff that is out now (Dungeon, Dragon, Compendium), and the others will get trials when they are ready.
Tomorrow? Next Week? or Next Month?
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but did anyone mention when they were going to start charging?
Tomorrow? Next Week? or Next Month?
I would assume when all of the features had been rolled out in full version format. Anything earlier would be pretty ridiculous.
I would assume when all of the features had been rolled out in full version format. Anything earlier would be pretty ridiculous.
your right it would be...
But that is what they are doing..
they said we have 1 more month of free then they will charge.
This is what they say.
I know there has been a lot of discussion of our business model and our pricing plan. We’ve been paying attention to those conversations and have decided to tweak a few things. Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
I would assume when all of the features had been rolled out in full version format. Anything earlier would be pretty ridiculous.
But in the article Randy states "Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. "
So if they are going to charge for what is ready as of today, when? I'm assuming next month, but I never saw anything for sure.
I've only browsed the content available now and while I didn't see anything discouraging I also didn't see anything super. I don't think it's worth $5-$8 a month. Maybe if you include the "Client Applications", but it sounds like when those are ready they'll bump up the price and there's noway I'm paying the same price as a full blown MMORPG.
Oh wow, didn't notice that. So if I pay for a year, and then want to upgrade my subscription to the full one instead of the web-only one, what happens?
They haven't stated what the "we're ready now" price will be, we assume it will be an increase, and if so, you'll owe the difference.
Mostly likely you'll select the option to upgrade and depending on the payment system you have, month, tri or year, you'll get billed and continue.
But, as a side note, all of this aside, I almost cried when I saw the new add on the front of the D&D home page. The balls it takes to advertise a product that's not any where near public release.
You now have volenteer flunkies posting positive feedback for you on your own forums. You lie and mislead at a whim. Your flunkies then say things like, "This is not misleading" even though anyone who can read basic english seems to disagree; well at least those without little fancy volenteer titles next to their name.
I would like to let everyone know there are many, most completely free, virtual tabletops that can easily be found using google. They are updated for free and won't have monthly MMO style prices like DDI.
I guess DDI hopes no one remmembers that all the "Digital content only" crap on WOTCs page USED to be free. Apparently calling it "Dungeon" or "Dragon" makes it worth paying for. Most of your content is seemingly just advertisements. Paying to see preview material...COME ON NOW.
Ghostintheshell
However, the encounter builder program looks okay, although they could add the Dragon monsters to it to make it more useful.
Ghostintheshell
DocRyder is right. They should keep a just magazine option for mac users since the programs won't be supported for them.
Are the bonus tools and the compendium not accessible to all platforms?? AFAIK, it is the other stuff that hasn't been released yet that is Windows-only.
Please confirm if the Character Builder is Windows-only or cross-platform.
Thanks!
P.S. I'm mostly liking Dragon and Dungeon so far, just get the editing a bit a better and they'll be perfect.
I know that the Character Visualizer and the Game Table are both Windows-only, but what about the Character Builder? That's the one program I really want (I hate doing character sheets manually) but I'm on a Mac. Seems to me there's no Direct 3D needed to build a character sheet.
Please confirm if the Character Builder is Windows-only or cross-platform.
Thanks!
P.S. I'm mostly liking Dragon and Dungeon so far, just get the editing a bit a better and they'll be perfect.
Last I recall being posted is that Character Visualizer and the Game Table are DirectX9 (Windows) and the other Character Builder is a Windows based application. There has been no announcement of any cross platform or other OS programing, ... with perhaps the new exception of Bonus tools that are web based and might work for many OSs. *shrugs*
Oh as it appears the ezines are cross platform a Mac user should be able to access that as well.
I would think that the 10-day free trial advertised in the core rulebooks would be for a completely functional suite of tools, not a sampling of what may or may not ultimately be available. Of course, it is labeled "some restrictions apply," so I guess that's your failsafe.
This is probably what's irking me most about these new developments. Options for less materials at a lower price are great, but what about that FREE TRIAL that was trumpeted so long ago? You know that people weren't thinking they were getting just a few months of free online articles and nothing else during the free trial. Test driving the Character Visualizer, V-tabletop, and other graphics-intensive options was going to be the fun part of this whole thing. Now that's been taken away?
Disappointing to say the least.
This is probably what's irking me most about these new developments. Options for less materials at a lower price are great, but what about that FREE TRIAL that was trumpeted so long ago? You know that people weren't thinking they were getting just a few months of free online articles and nothing else during the free trial. Test driving the Character Visualizer, V-tabletop, and other graphics-intensive options was going to be the fun part of this whole thing. Now that's been taken away?
Disappointing to say the least.
This bit pricing I expected from how I understood what was posted/released by WotC.
I would point out that you have had two issues of both Dragon and Dungeon provided for free when they were to be fee. That is a two month free trial, far more then 10 days.
As to the Compendium I can not quite say the same thing, it is not loaded with DMG nor MM based on last reports and tests. This I would say has not offered so far the 10 day test.
The Bonus tools clearly appear to be active and more or less working and will, it appears, remain fee free for at least 10 days.
Now as to the other tools, if you do not get the 10 days, then IMO, is time to really complain.
The release clearly not prefect and I can understanding wanting to see more, however so far you have indeed been able to test what they now want you to pay for soon.
Am I really gonna have to pay a monthy fee for a character generator? I mean what is the point of that, I can see a one time fee and then maybe updates every now and then, but why pay for something when there are so many free products out there. I would prefer a "official" version but a monthy fee is just dumb. Release something like the old core rules from 10 years ago and I would buy em.
Unless plans change, a monthly fee will be required to use many features of a character generator. If I understand it correctly, and plans do not change, the generator can be downloaded and able to do a few things. Leveling up however appears to require being an Insider.
A fare number of posters have praised the on-line dragon and dungeon, the level of my interest in the dragon articles is far less then i had for the last 100 or so issues of the print magazine.
The two most promising dragon articles (the warfroged & artificer) are far to Ebron centric for my taste. The rest is not bad but it's just not doing it for me.
I never was big on Dungeon in print so I'm not all that pumped about paying for it as part of DDI but it seems to be mostly good.
The compendium seems to have lost a lot in its rules lite incarnation and at this stage has vary little to offer, maybe in a year or two I will change my mind.
The new bonus tools are to new to really comment on, but apeare to be unimpressive.
So if ever one is patting them self on the back for the fine job that there doing with the stuff that is out now,stop it. Theres still a lot of improvement to be made! Now get back to work;)
I was really hopefully about DDI but my level of confidence is drooping faster then a lead balloon. For some reason I would rather pay twice as much for the old Dragon than less then 1/2 for all this great stuff on the web.
My biggest issue is that the DDI tools seem to be on a "whenever" basis, and the articles themselves don't seem to go up on any sort of schedule. I'm glad you're not releasing them while they're still incredibly buggy, but on the other hand the fact that none of them are live this long after release makes me wonder what exactly is going on up there. I had thought that the DDI tools were coming out pretty close to when 4e came out, but the fact that nothing has a release date other than "Its done when it is done" bothers me and makes me less inclined to purchase the service, as the main reason I'd be purchasing it would be a combination of the dungeon creator, about half of Dragon, and the easy to use VTT.
Is there going to be some schedule for the release of articles? Nothing drives me crazier than looking for something and it not coming out at a regular time online.
On the issue of price I think you are on track, and I don't envy your position what with your demographic spanning teens to people old enough to remember when they bought the Red Box.
I really only came back to DND purely by chance when I saw 4th edition and I have to say that the thing that tipped me - no longer a teenager with time to write my own material and mess around for hours on end prepping a game - over the edge and got me back on board was learning about DNDI.
So ... keep up the good work guys! As a developer myself I understand a little bit of what you are going through and how hard that can be to convey to all the impatient gamers out there.
~ Wolfofmanyfaces.
I would strongly suggest a "Magazine Only" option. I'm a Mac user (and one who can do without the childish "get a PC" remarks), which has already been stated will not be supported any time soon, and I have zero reason to pay for most of what is offered in this plan. It's also a bit much for me to pay for more than a month at a time, as I'm on a budget, like most gamers. Hasbro may think we're all wealthy, but other gamers know the reality.
This is a valid point. I'm also a mac user although I do run Xp and Vista on my laptop too I understand those who may not want to go to the trouble.
A magazine option would be very worthwhile IMHO.
If it is ever ready the gametable is the meat of the sandwich for me. I do hope that a fee for the table is offered as some of my players have absolutely no interest in the magazines as well as broken or not very useful online tools. All in all I will still just table top game with my group and those who unfortunately had to move will just be denied. If anybody could post one of these other options for table top gaming as I am not all that computer savvy would have my most humble thanks.
Will only those who are currently subscribed for the month have access to the Dungeon and Dragon articles and the issues will not be available for future subscribers? If so, will the previous issues be available for purchase separately?
This is the most important question I've seen in this thread so far. Can we please get an official answer? Thanks!
This bit pricing I expected from how I understood what was posted/released by WotC.
I would point out that you have had two issues of both Dragon and Dungeon provided for free when they were to be fee. That is a two month free trial, far more then 10 days.
As to the Compendium I can not quite say the same thing, it is not loaded with DMG nor MM based on last reports and tests. This I would say has not offered so far the 10 day test.
The Bonus tools clearly appear to be active and more or less working and will, it appears, remain fee free for at least 10 days.
Now as to the other tools, if you do not get the 10 days, then IMO, is time to really complain.
The release clearly not prefect and I can understanding wanting to see more, however so far you have indeed been able to test what they now want you to pay for soon.
And up until the release of 4E, we were offered a plethora of free content through the website, including adventures, maps, and other goodies. Admittedly, the quality of some of these were questionable, but they were FREE.
And, as you pointed out (and others have as well), the Compendium is hardly complete.
I haven't played with the bonus tools yet, but I'm not very impressed by an ability generator, particularly since it doesn't take a calculus degree to run the numbers in your head.
1) Will WotC be using a two-tiered pricing system once all the other online goodies are ready to launch?
I ask this because while I'm willing to pay $5/mo for the current product available, I honestly have no interest in the character builder/visualizer & the game table. The online rules compendium, both magazines, & a few fun little bonus tools would suit me just fine, & I'd rather not pay more for all the other stuff that I'll probably never bother using. In fact, I won't subscribe at all, if that ends up being the case.
2) When exactly do we have to start paying?
Maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen a date provided yet.
3) Will a subscription purchased later on give you access to both current & previously-released content?
Basically, I just wanna know if you have to be on board right from the start with your subscription in order to keep your Dragon/Dungeon collection complete & avoid missing out on 4e material. If so, an answer to Question #2 would be more than helpful.
I believe they are more or less ready to go and hope to have them available before GenCon.
Bonus tools are out now! See Insider for link to them!
The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.
If you haven't figured out by now we are tired of the videos. If it can work at GenCon, then it should be able to run now for people to try out. The time has long past for closed-beta, and if you don't get a fully public beta out soon, you will be getting less subscribers, as they are tired of waiting and excuses.
1) Will WotC be using a two-tiered pricing system once all the other online goodies are ready to launch?
GZ just said he wanted to figure that out today.
2) When exactly do we have to start paying?
It seems pretty soon... but they probably won't give us specifics before Gen Con
3) Will a subscription purchased later on give you access to both current & previously-released content?
This was answered about one to ten bazillion times before: You get all magazines while you have subscribed. To get magazines which where released while you where not paying, you have to order back issues, exactly like it is for print mags.
A CD was packaged in our 3e Player's Handbook. How long did we wait for the promised, fully-functional version of "Master Tools", including mapper and 3-D character visualizer (sound familiar?)? Eight years. When did we get it? Never.
Once WotC took development of the M:tG online feature from Leaping Lizards, what did they develop and release instead? "...a new version of a successful game with fewer features, worse interface, higher system requirements, and unproven scalability."
With the announcement of 4th Edition at GenCon 2007, it was stated outright that one of the draws of 4e was going to be its intimate electronic integration, including Web-only extras and, particularly, the celebrated Game Table. When 4e hit the shelves, what was available? The html versions (not pdf, yet) of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, which had been there since Paizo relinquished them last year. The Game Table? Still in development, for an interminable time.
Add in the way WotC is pulling everything in--the magazines are solely in-house work. Freelance talent? Forget about it, now. The GSL is a measure to do the same in a broader context. Remember what happened with M:tG online, too.
Okay, the GSL makes some sense. After all, 4e is WotC's baby, and you guys deserve the credit and the money for what is a fantastic ruleset. Making it tight initially allows you to loosen the reins later when everyone has a solid grasp on the rules. I get that.
But what is it with WotC and insisting on software development? WotC has a proven track record of failure in this. Source the software development to a reputable software design company, and focus on making the game. That way, DDI can be done in a quarter the time and what will be released will be actually worth the money you want us to pay for it. So WotC loses a little money to get it made. It takes an investment to get returns on an investment. And maybe you will win back some people who are losing heart in your sales strategies and other business practices.
On that note, I am actually quite surprised at all the sticky-sweet positive feedback. We're starving dogs out here, and you keep throwing us rubber bones. Don't mistake the excitement of "something is better than nothing" for genuine excitement over a product concept WotC has established a consistently horrible track record for releasing.
Don't get me wrong--we WANT these tools. We've wanted them for eight freaking years!
And that, WotC, is the point. We want them. Usable. Stable. Intuitive.
And sometime during this edition.
I organize and participate in games for a small living (on top of a more permanent career at sea)
Okay, explain to me exactly how you make money from D&D??
Okay, explain to me exactly how you make money from D&D??
No smurfing kidding! If people are actually willing to pay you to GM for them, you must either be the world's best GM or they must be incredibly desperate! My players have stated (on more than one occasion) that they would not pay to play under me, despite the fact that they show up faithfully every week and seem to enjoy the games I run. I can't even get them to buy me pizza!
No smurfing kidding! If people are actually willing to pay you to GM for them, you must either be the world's best GM or they must be incredibly desperate! My players have stated (on more than one occasion) that they would not pay to play under me, despite the fact that they show up faithfully every week and seem to enjoy the games I run. I can't even get them to buy me pizza!
I feel you there, but if this guy's worked out some sort of scam to get paid for running games, I want in on this info too. Hell, just to tell someone I'm working as I read through a rulebook would be reward enough.
I haven't played with the bonus tools yet, but I'm not very impressed by an ability generator, particularly since it doesn't take a calculus degree to run the numbers in your head.
Having played around with the bonus tools, I'll say this:
The Ability Generator is better than I had thought it would be, but still essentially useless. Really, who can't do this in their head?
The encounter builder is slightly more useful, almost impressive. I can see where it might by helpful and I might use it on occasion. But something I would pay real money for? No, sorry. Besides, I fully expect that someone will come up with a new and improved version very shortly, and offer it on their site for free.
As well there is no option for random d6 generation, or higher point buys, seriously i could make something in excel in 2 hours with far more functionality and hell even make it look prettier if i spent a couple of extra hours on it.
Im really not writing this to complain, i just really want to know if this is the quality we have to expect, or if this was something tossed out there to appease the community that is screaming for results.
Honestly, I have been defending WotC to several die-hard D&D friends for years now, and I feel like a fool.
I've been a faithful supporter of TSR, then Wizards, since 1978. Even during the Dark Times (the Lorraine Williams years) and the subsequent collapse of TSR, Inc., I remained supportive, buying products and doing my small part to keep the hobby afloat. But apparently, my efforts didn't mean much, because Wizards still did not address several issues I had, even after numerous postings on different forums and three direct e-mails to the company.
Don't I feel like an idiot?
If my postings and letters have seemed unusually harsh and critical, then I apologize. Consider it stress induced by a lack of communication and the feeling that the veteran fans, those of use who have contributed a significant part of our income to the hobby over the past two to three decades, have been abandoned and ignored in favor of the "new blood."
It's something I'd take into consideration for a single-payment package, but IMO it adds little to no value to a subscription. It's just not enough to be worth renting only.
Ok I have a serious question i need to ask, was the ability generator something slapped together in an hour to appease the community? cause when i was playing with it all i could get it to do was randomly generate a point buy ability list, i could not manually change any of the abilities.
Heh, that's funny. Not in a belittling way, obviously.. when I looked at it all I saw was the manual point change, didn't see a way to randomly generate anything. Guess I'll go poke at it again, see what I missed
Durr. Big button marked Random. Hurr.As well there is no option for random d6 generation, or higher point buys, seriously i could make something in excel in 2 hours with far more functionality and hell even make it look prettier if i spent a couple of extra hours on it.
Im really not writing this to complain, i just really want to know if this is the quality we have to expect, or if this was something tossed out there to appease the community that is screaming for results.
Considering anyone can use any of the 3.x generator or dice roller applications (like Crystal Ball) to generate stats, I agree with you - I fail to see how the Ability Generator adds any value whatsoever.
Hire me for a week drunk and I could do A 360 WITH 90% of this garbage that will just turn into a money pit for your company.
Did anyone else laugh at this?
Did anyone else laugh at this?
I can't lie, I did as well. He was wildly inappropriate in some of his posts this morning, but I'll be damned if they didn't elicit that shocked wow type of laughter. Like when one of your drunk friends turns to another one of your friends and says, "You know if I was gay, I'd totally do you."
Im really not writing this to complain, i just really want to know if this is the quality we have to expect, or if this was something tossed out there to appease the community that is screaming for results.
The latter, I suspect. It's sort of like shouting, "Hey, Gigi Edgley is doing a fan dance over at Booth #1415!" at GenCon. About half the people in the hall are going to go check it out. They know that some of us aren't going to be fooled, but they figure the having half of us placated is better than everyone screaming and yelling all at once. Besides, it gives them something they can point to and say, "See, we are working on it."
A better choice would probably have been to submit a sacrifice to the masses, but they've tried that already.
As well there is no option for random d6 generation, or higher point buys, seriously i could make something in excel in 2 hours with far more functionality and hell even make it look prettier if i spent a couple of extra hours on it.
QUOTE]
I'd like to see additional functionality like this also. It shouldn't be that hard.
1. The magazines are good, but to me it seems that you would make more money by leaving them free. They generate publicity for Wizards and D&D. All my years of marketing experience show me that you will make more money if you give them away. The magazines have actually convinced me to buy some of the non essential books due to interesting articles. It costs you nothing to create them other then some time from employees. You clearly don't edit them so I can't see a huge amount of time and effort going into it. Haven't your marketers heard of giving something away for free in order to earn money somewhere else?
2. The Compendium is useless, period. The lack of good navigation, the limited details, and the fact that we can only access it when on the net makes it worthless for running a game. How many people are connected to the net while running a game? Hands up everyone. So basically I would only use the Compendium when I'm preparing right? Wrong! I have the books and plenty of time to look things up when not running a game. So why pay for something that wont help.
3. The tools you've offered so far are really rather useless. I could create similar tools in a day on my PC with Visual Studio and my degree in Information Systems. What is stopping others releasing similar tools on the net for free.
4. I'm pretty certain judging by the way you have been releasing your D&DI content so far you will make the Gaming Table and Character Generator online tools only. Therefore once again they will be useless to many people who don't have access to the internet when running a game.
So there is my criticism. Greed could kill Wizards. The current SRD and OGL laws make it clear that the organization is turning into a money grabbing corporation. It's losing its appeal.
I'm glad to see Xaos_Bob point out the BS that was the Master Tools fiasco. It seems like most everyone I know has forgotten all about that dropped ball. My gut feeling with the tools is that they'll end up like the Master Tools - partially developed and then dropped. It won't matter to me one way or the other (as I mentioned, I'm not particularly interested in them), but I know there are people who could and would use them. At the price WoTC deems appropriate, though - we'll have to see.
I quite like the 4e rules, much to my surprise. I really don't like the direction WoTC has taken with their IP, though - forbidding other companies from producing tools, rules, and add-ons so that they can sell their own if/when they come out just smacks of greed. The same goes for the prices that have been discussed for the character tools and tabletop. WoTC's bean counters apparently don't realize that DnD isn't an MMO, can't be played hours on end like an MMO, and won't draw an MMO crowd. I won't be surprised to see the whole DDI initiative tank from underwhelming interest.
I suggest to whomever will listen at WoTC to really look at your demographic and at your property, and what it's worth to those people. It's not an MMO - you can't charge for it like it's an MMO and expect people to put up with it. People will either create their own materials/tools/etc., or turn to another system (I have friends who've moved to Savage Worlds instead of 4e, because it was far easier to adapt to from 3.5e). If WoTC keeps mishandling their products and overcharging for questionable quality and sketchy delivery dates, I'll end up joining them. While all of my Eberron books are worthless as anything other than fluff for 4e, they still work quite well in Savage Worlds...
The magazines have actually convinced me to buy some of the non essential books due to interesting articles.
Hmm yeah, Sherlock Holmes, maybe you haven't noticed but the previews are not part of Dungeon or Dragon magazine. You don't need to be a subscriber to get those.
The online mags you pay for give you preview to new classes, new adventures, and additional crunch and fluff. There's nothing stopping them from charging us for the meaty bits and giving us the advertisement for free, and I expect that's exactly their plans.
It costs you nothing to create them other then some time from employees.
Yeah, apart from using up some of *the most expensive ressources in your company* (human ressources), it doesn't cost you anything...
I like Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine (especially when they were truly published works with lots of extras such as the fun cartoons). Now, they currently seem to be promotional advertising for the next upcoming product. Even so, there are some articles and columns that I enjoy and might consider spending the money just for those.
However, the Basic Tools and Compendium are a complete waste of my time.
The Ability Generator does nothing for me. There are simply too many easy ways to generate ability scores. As a programmer, I could create a tool that does that AND give me greater options for making characters.
The Encounter Builder has potential but it has a few flaws as well. First, it only provides a list of monsters with no other useful information about them. I'd still need to go through my Monster Manual (especially with higher level monsters) to get details for monster types, abilities, etc. (Keep in mind that this sort of thing may be included in the Compendium but I'd have to have both screens open at the same time to be useful.)
Even worse, the Encounter Builder seems a bit buggy. I, as a test, was creating an encounter for a 1st level party. So far so good. I went to the build encounter screen and chose a keyword of "goblin". Great! I expected Sharpshooters and Cutters, etc. Unfortunately, all that I saw was Hobgoblins. If I had chosen Goblin, Goblin from the category section, I'd get those that I expected but it should be obvious that keyword goblin actually applies to... you know... Goblins!
It is nice that it includes creatures from other sources. (Irontooth and Balgron the Fat from Keep on the Shadowfell, for example) However, it again gives no information on them. In fact, it doesn't even tell what the source is. That is not very useful, especially as more books and adventures come out.
Finally, I was extremely disappointed to find that it doesn't even print out but the information must be cut-and-pasted into a notepad-like application. This is an easy task that shouldn't have taken more than a half-hour to program. In fact, since the Ability Generator could make a printable page, it seems obvious that some lines of code could have been stolen to accomplish this in even less time.
Because of this, I'd prefer to create my own tools. In other words, the only true benefit of the subscription so far are two magazines that aren't as good as they used to be.
I am also rather disappointed in your current pricing structure. While I would be willing to pay the $4.95 a month for all the tools. I am not willing to pay that just for the current selections. I find the quality of the articles to have dropped off considerably from the days when Paizo ran both magazines, and am unwilling to pay actual magazine prices for a web only magazine. If I can't take the magazine on the bus or in the bathroom or over to a friends house then their is no way I am willing to pay the same price as I would for a real glossy covered magazine.
I find the current applications (the stat and encounter builder) to be of a sub par quality. I work in software and can tell you that apps such as those are only really viable as freeware. There is little doubt in my mind that where you to try to sell them they would stagnate, and seeing as they are little more than calculation tools I expect to find home-brewed freeware versions online very quickly.
I am very interested in seeing the new tools you are still working on, but until they are completed their is no way I will sign up for any pay to play service. Like others have said before me, I will not pay you for the right to Beta test your products.
I would also like to point out that comparing yourselves to a MMORPG and basing your prices on such is a complete fallacy. The cost of creation and upkeep on something like WOW is so much greater than the price of creating and supporting the web based applications and content that you are making. They really are not even in the same league. I would not be shocked if the costs of running the servers for WOW for one month alone far out stripes the overhead of creating and supporting your products for even a year. And then their is the time spent using your online services. Lets pretend I would use those online services every time I play D&D (something I highly doubt) and I do play a lot (2 games every week) even then I play for at most 16 hours a week. This does not compare to the amount of time most MMORPG players spend in their online worlds. So to expect people to be willing to pay the same amount for so much less time is unrealistic.
In summation I will be willing to pay the yearly fee of $4.95 a month for all your online products and content only once all of them are ready and out of the beta stage.
I am in for the 1 year subscription, once they at least have the character builder up. I am glad to see it moving forward. I think WOTC made a good move on lowering the price. Good Job WOTC!:D
Hang on there, hoss. That thar price drop wasn't for the Character Builder, oh no. That's just for the web content that they don't want to keep giving out for free while everyone waits for the rest of DDI.
Right now it doesn't appear that they're willing to come down any on the total subscription price, so you can still look forward to shelling out $15 a month or $120 a year.
Sorry my english :D
Have they spelled out exactly what the "web-only" content is? Is the Character Builder an app that you'll download or will it be something that'll run in the browser? Seems like the same question could be asked of each of the other core components...
Yes its in the article. for the 5 bucks a month year subscription you get both mags, access to the compendium and an ability generator and an encounter generator.
Personally i think it is a great deal at least just for hte mags. From the 2 issues that have been done so far i think the articles have been great read. and remember, they dont have advertising in the m like the printed mags dis to offset production costs, so they gotta make their money off of them somehow.
oh wait i forgot, most people think that WoTC should give all their prodoct away for free. Stupid company thinking they should be able to run a bussiness AND make a profit at the same time. How inconsiderate.
Hm. At just under $5 a month, I'm interested in it now. That's not much money, and between all the tools that's not an unreasonable value. I'm interested in everything, but not THAT interested in any of it, but at $5 I may well try it out.
Problem is, to get the $5.00 rate, you aren't just trying it out, you're committing to a year. Otherwise, a one-month trial costs $8.00, roughly.
]oh wait i forgot, most people think that WoTC should give all their prodoct away for free. Stupid company thinking they should be able to run a bussiness AND make a profit at the same time. How inconsiderate.
There's making a profit and then there is ripping the consumer off. I personally can't afford to drop $60 so I can get a reasonable price for two ezines with a tiny selection of short articles, and a large collection of articles I can't use without fighting an emulator. If you give me a good value for my money (which most people here think they are not getting with items as stands), I will pay a reasonable price (which I don't think we're being given at this point).
Admittedly, the quality of some of these were questionable, but they were FREE.
Many here seem to think the quality of the magazines is questionable.
This was answered about one to ten bazillion times before: You get all magazines while you have subscribed. To get magazines which where released while you where not paying, you have to order back issues, exactly like it is for print mags.
Guess what's also been answered ten bazillion times before. Whether or not you'd be able to subscribe to everything except the windows tools. The answer was no, that answer has changed. Its quite possible the answer to this question has also changed.
The answer has also been "will we be able to buy the magazines separately" which was always yes. I see no mention of this in the pricing scheme. Its worth asking to see if this has changed as well.
There's making a profit and then there is ripping the consumer off. I personally can't afford to drop $60 so I can get a reasonable price for two ezines with a tiny selection of short articles, and a large collection of articles I can't use without fighting an emulator. If you give me a good value for my money (which most people here think they are not getting with items as stands), I will pay a reasonable price (which I don't think we're being given at this point).
What emulator do you need to use to view PDF files? PDF is an industry standard, and as far as I know there are readers for all platforms.
the D&D insider is a great way for we who don't live in USA (like me who live in Brazil) to have access to dragon and dungeons magazine if the dollar keeps steady U$5 (+ or - R$8,25) it is a good price.
Sorry my english :D
Just a quick point of note: DDI is the only way for anyone, regardless of location, to have access to Dungeon and Dragon. They are digital products only.
What emulator do you need to use to view PDF files? PDF is an industry standard, and as far as I know there are readers for all platforms.
I agree. As much as there is to complain about, this argument simply isn't valid.
So, if you can do it, by all means do and use it. I can't. Ergo, the tools provided are not useless to me (they are very usefull, moreso the encounter calculator). So, when it's time to pay for them, I will.
Maybe we nonprogrammers are not as vocal as some of you guys, so...
Greetings from Brazil.
Eduardo "Sauron"
They have decided to create some new bonus tools to give the cost a little added value. They could have jsut made it thde magazines and nothing else and charged 5 bucks burt htey are giving a bit more. How is that ripping off the customers.
5 dollers month for 2 magazines is not ripping people off. The print versions of said magazines were 10 dollers each, 2.50 each is a very good deal. especially since the do not have the advertisemsnts that that the prints ones did to offset costs. At no point is WoTC ripping anyone off. they are not forcing you to buy this stuff. They are charging what they feel is a reasonable price to cover creation costs as well as making a decent profit.
They have decided to create some new bonus tools to give the cost a little added value. They could have jsut made it thde magazines and nothing else and charged 5 bucks burt htey are giving a bit more. How is that ripping off the customers.
When the hell was a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon $20 a month? ($10 each as you said). I fully support anyone's right to *****, but I subscribed for years and I can guarantee you that I was never forking out $20 a month for them.
When the hell was a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon $20 a month? ($10 each as you said). I fully support anyone's right to *****, but I subscribed for years and I can guarantee you that I was never forking out $20 a month for them.
I never said a sub was 10 dollers each, that was the cover price for each magazine. How much did you pay fopr your yearly subscription?
I never said a sub was 10 dollers each, that was the cover price for each magazine. How much did you pay fopr your yearly subscription?
Well since you were comparing the yearly subscription price of the digital magazines option I assumed you were trying to draw a correlation with the yearly subscription price of the physical magazines. As for your question, if I remember correctly, and admittedly I can't check anymore; a year long subscription to the physical magazine was about $50. Though I do remember that you could subscribe for up to 3 years at a stretch and save even more. I want to say the 36-month sub was $130, and I know that's what I used to do because I never foresaw myself not wanting them in the future.
Though assuming my memory serves me and we're comparing year long subscriptions, it's $60 for both digital mags and it was $100 for both physical mags.
- The DDI programs are not completed, nor will they be in the near future.
- the free trial of the magazines is going to last about a month or so long, and at that point, they are going to start charging for them.
My big problem is this: the article makes it seems like they are offering this because it's what people want, but it seems pretty obvious that really it's that they can't get the full suite out any time soon, so they need to start making some money so they will just charge less for the magazines sooner, instead of charging more for everything later...
It's not so much that they are doing this that I have a problem with. It's the way they are spinning this like it's answering our concerns, when in truth it's them trying to salvage the losing position they got themselves into.
It's not so much that they are doing this that I have a problem with. It's the way they are spinning this like it's answering our concerns, when in truth it's them trying to salvage the losing position they got themselves into.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Why can't it be both?
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Why can't it be both?
Because nobody said "My concern is that you are offering this for free. I'd prefer if you'd start charging us for part of what you offered before the rest of what you offered is out."
And to prove my point that this isn't some new change in policy based on how people feel, but rather something that's been planned, here is a quote from the FAQ in the announcements forum:
-- [P1b] "Question -- "Do you guys plan on starting to charge with the launch of the first app, or when they are all out?"
This question fits in well with the pricing issue, so I'm including it here. The answer is, "It depends." If we feel that the time window between launching any two given applications is long enough, we may decide the right answer for us is to offer a different version of D&D Insider...one that costs less money, but also offers fewer features. But we're not going to have any definitive plan in that direction until we get further along in this year.
What emulator do you need to use to view PDF files? PDF is an industry standard, and as far as I know there are readers for all platforms.
I was referring only to the programs, not the PDFs. I would have to run a Windows emulator to use anything other than the magazines. Since I have yet to find an emulator that works worth a darn, I can see no reason to subscribe at the current rate for programs I can't run smoothly.
5 dollers month for 2 magazines is not ripping people off. The print versions of said magazines were 10 dollers each, 2.50 each is a very good deal. especially since the do not have the advertisemsnts that that the prints ones did to offset costs. At no point is WoTC ripping anyone off. they are not forcing you to buy this stuff. They are charging what they feel is a reasonable price to cover creation costs as well as making a decent profit.
My argument, as well as others', is that the content might not be worth $5 a month. I also argue that to get that, I have to cough up a years subscription all at once, to subscribe to a suite of tools I can't use. Thus, what they see as a reasonable price isn't.
I never subscribed tot he print magazine. I shelled out cash (about $7.00) for each magazine on a separate payday. I had control over when I paid for the magazines, and thus kept the impact to my funds minimized.
I would pay $5.00 a month for the magazines (total) when I want to pay it, not when their automatic billing systems decides, and not in one lump sum. I kinda hate to say it, but I see more value in a dead tree magazine than I do in an ezine. When Wowio recently started charging for PDFs, I thought about it, until I noticed that in most cases, they are charging the same price I'd pay at a book store for a paper copy, so I said no. People balk at paying the dead tree price for a digital book at DriveThru or the other online retailers as well. This is nothing new, and I see no reason to cut WotC slack I won't cut another retailer.
They have decided to create some new bonus tools to give the cost a little added value. They could have jsut made it thde magazines and nothing else and charged 5 bucks burt htey are giving a bit more. How is that ripping off the customers.
Those tools may be good for you, but if you run a Mac or Linux based computer, the tools are not currently supported, and my never be. I have very few gaming buddies any more who run Windows. For us, these so-called "bonus tools" have no value. If I can't use them, why should I pay for them?
I'll offer a solution instead of continuing to harp:
WotC, please give customers an option to buy individual issues of Dungeon and Dragon, like may other e-publishers do for their ezines. The individual issues will sell, probably more than full subscriptions.
To DocRyder: Wine works with mac, or at least crossover does, I know I use it with Linux(Scientific Linux Fermi 5.1) and it "works worth a darn." I know there are also several other emulation options avaible, some free and some you have to pay for once the trial runs out, that work well enough to run the DDI tools without a problem. You can also dual boot into Windows using boot camp if you are on an intel based mac. Also any of the applications that are hosted on the web such as the compendium and bonus tools will run in Firefox(you might need some of the free plugins) which is free and runs on any modern OS, so you should be able to use everything. Maybe it's not the Mac but your lack of computing ability that is the problem here. They might be related since a lot of the less computer capable people I know seem to prefer Macs.
Edit:
I just thought I would let you know I am in Linux right now using Friefox and I opened up the Compendium and both bonus tools and they worked just fine even without Wine. So DocRyder try downloading a new version of Firefox(free) and running the tools in that web browers and be prepared to be amazed.
It would be interesting to have the option to pay a fee to download individual articles of dungeon/dragon. That way, if I hear about some cool character options in a dragon magazine, I can simply pay for that issue rather than subscribe for access to magazines that I will largely not be using.
Hasbro/WOTC is incompetent not to be able to put out the ability to play online on time. I bought the books exactly so we could get the old gang together and play across the states, and here we wait, months later.
Hi folks,
This thread is for any feedback you might have regarding Randy Buehler's forthcoming Welcome to Digital Insider article.
Yeah, I got some feedback.
Stick a fork in the DnD product line. It's dead. It died when they pulled the plug on Master Tools.
You do remember Master Tools, right? Yeah, it was the carrot WotC dangled for months after 3rd edition came out. "Oh, we're working on it!" "Just a little longer, guys!" "It's coming soon!" (Does all this sound familiar?)
Word of advice: Spend all of your money on 3rd edition. It will still be valuable ten years from now. 4th edition, not so much.
And, furthermore, Mr. Buehler, who are you? Did you just get promoted? I'm just trying to figure out from whence comes your enthusiasm given WotC's track record since 2000 of not delivering quality software.
This is the pricing for the "web-content only" subscription, which we saw a fair number of people request. Future pricing hasn't yet been announced.
Could you please define "web-content only"? Does it include the character visualizer, character builder, dungeon builder and battle map? Is the just the stuff we are getting for free already?
Could you please define "web-content only"? Does it include the character visualizer, character builder, dungeon builder and battle map? Is the just the stuff we are getting for free already?
Answer:
Yes, the $4.95 price is for the 1 year initial subscription package, which includes Dragon and Dungeon Magazine, the D&D Compendium, and the bonus applications: Ability Builder, Encounter Builder, and Monster Builder.
So in other words, only the stuff that's available for free already.
Answer:
So in other words, only the stuff that's available for free already.
That is simply awful. I wouldn't pass water for that stuff, let alone pay a monthly fee.
We will of course honor the web-content subscription for the duration, regardless of the future. When additional applications are launched, we do intend to charge for them in some manner, but I don't have any further details to share.
1) Will the initial subscription rate be applied towards the full subscription - somehow I missed the answer to that question in this answer (Y/N)?
I believe they are more or less ready to go and hope to have them available before GenCon.
2) I was able to access them last night or the night before.
We are partnering with Digital River who offers a pretty expansive suite of payment options, much more than we currently offer with Magic Online (which already supports Paypal.)
3) Paypal (Y/N) - somehow i missed a Y/N answer to this question also.
3) Paypal (Y/N) - somehow i missed a Y/N answer to this question also.
Yes, WotC is partnering with a service that does interface with paypal and other types of payments.
$4.95 a month for everything, although great for us, would be a bit much to expect WOTC to churn a quality product for a lengthy time. $9.95 on the other hand might be a fair price?
One year of "we're almost there" is a bit much to expect anything other than the skepticism that WOTC is receiving in this and other threads. I like the initial article for giving us some detail, and once again the promise of weekly updates.
I don't find use in Dragon/Dungeon anymore - as has been mentioned in the article, the DM's ability to run from adventures from the Dungeon seem rather diminished if all players have access to the adventure
but the new tool for encounters can resolve that easily enough - Tomato/Tomatoe.Memory, I'm old as far as DND Gamers go, mid 40's playing since AD&D came out. I seem to recall a PDF release memo or information memo informing us that we will receive everything for free until everything was ready. Could be mistaken, like I said, I'm old.
Harp - Missed opportunities - had the product been released, even as is for testing, when 4th ed was released, I believe the natives would have been less restless.
Waiting - Here's a thought - All initial subscribers will get a discount for the full blown package when it becomes available - let the subscribers put their money where their mouth is as far as support goes.
Long-Term Users - WOTC Think about locking in subscription prices
Hope - All we can do is hope that this ends well
I'd be willing to pay $14.95 for everything to play online with my HS buddies that have since moved to other states/towns.
Here's what I hope is positive feedback / helpful on the project. Thanks a ton for the recent status post. I really appreciate it.
The virtual table top, at least for me, is the gem in the planned online offering. I miss Dragon and Dungeon magazine as a magazine and while I would go out of my way to pick up a copy of both from my local game store frankly I don't get into reading them online. Instead I go to my stack of hundreds of old beloved magazines and re-read those. Crazy? Maybe. I would guess there are alot of customers like myself that prefer the old print copy magazines and don't get very into the idea of reading articles on their computer. I have to read stuff on my computer all day long at work. When I get home and unwind I want to drop into a chair with an actual book or magazine and read something -not- on my computer.
So from my point of view you could chuck everything else you are offering in the garbage bin...the character generator (i can make my own characters using books and character sheets thanks), the online magazines, the other bells and whistles...its all meaningless junk to me while what I am actually interested in is the virtual table top.
At $4.95 a month I would subscribe if the offering was -just- the virtual table top. At $1.00 a month I would -not- subscribe if it was everything else and the virtual table top was absent.
So I'm a little bummed to hear that the virtual table top is at the bottom of the priority list but I guess that is the breaks.
Keep hammering away guys. I know there are others who love the online magazines and other stuff. To me and my little group of players and friends though most of that stuff is fluff we could do without. We miss the physical magazines guys. We were excited by the virtual table top...not the character generator. I don't need one to make characters in 4e. I might make an excel spreadsheet to make characters in a complex system but making a character in 4e is so easy with all the pre determined stats and narrow choices when you start one has to ponder....why the heck would anyone need a computer program to figure this out. You have a choice between four things....maybe a dozen at most.
Anyway. Keep at it. Best of luck at Gen Con guys.
Arthnek
The only tool that we want is not yet out and if a look closely they will not be out soon.
Dude what's going on?
If some people are happy to pay that amond for that, well they don't go really often on the net.
I don't think that will help people to by confident on D&DI.
We just hope that we have something very utile soon.
By now i'm very desapoited by this projet who going no where.
2 mouth and all we have is that. Sorry but is really not a big deal.
60$ a year for crapy thing that we can find free on the internet, is awful.
The only tool that we want is not yet out and if a look closely they will not be out soon.
Dude what's going on?
If some people are happy to pay that amond for that, well they don't go really often on the net.
We frequent the net, we just choose to support the vendor that creates the product. Which, hopefully keeps them around even longer to produce more product.
I don't think that will help people to by confident on D&DI.
We just hope that we have something very utile soon.
By now i'm very desapoited by this projet who going no where.
2 mouth and all we have is that. Sorry but is really not a big deal.
Have faith young apprentice - Baby Steps - If you build it they will come
I took it apart and looked at the code. Why not just use simple javascript? Is it that hard to make the tools work for all platforms? I would figure even basic browsers would benefit from javascript. But it had to be flash.
Like there isn't enough trash in there.
Oh looky. I can't add my points based character up without this flash file.
Save the thing from your browser cache and use it offline.
That tool was a waste of money developing it. I don't care how many more races you can add, it did NOT require flash for that garbage.
Encounter tool.....not that impressed there either. Another flash piece of crap.
Get off the flash kick and make something that doesn't require the overhead. Quit trying to rip people off because you want to waste bandwidth.
Bigger PDF for Dragon and Dungeon means higher costs of bandwidth, which means you make less maney from subscriptions. Flash-based crap means the same thing.
This is so stupid. I have seen quite a few onlince character generators and encounter generators for 4th already that outperform these "bonus" tools.
Didn't Gleemax teach you how to NOT waste money on stupid stuff? Guess not.
If it doesn't require flash to make it useable cross-platform, then you should not use flash for it.
Stop the damn talking and otherwise noise making crap and kill the overuse of flash!!!!! This isn't YouTube!
Have you tried javascript before? It works great.
In case anyone hasn't noticed....the bonus tools are a joke.
An example of a 4e tool written in JS: http://home.dralenan.com/dscript/rodent.html
Dralenan: Thanks for the cool FREE tool.
WotC: WTF
I'm an application developer and I concur with the running opinion that the bonus tools are the ultimate suck, especially considering your average junior web developer could create a superior product in a weekend. Heck, there are entire cities in a certain peninsulaic nation which shall remain India whose population is required by law to be able to create web unsucky apps before cutting their first tooth. But I digress :D
What an embarrassment to Wizards of the Coast! (Well, considering Gleemax has crashed my browser out from under me 5 times in 2 days, I would imagine they're getting used to disappointment.)
Why is there no real delete tool?
To DocRyder: Wine works with mac, or at least crossover does,
(snip)
I just thought I would let you know I am in Linux right now using Friefox and I opened up the Compendium and both bonus tools and they worked just fine even without Wine. So DocRyder try downloading a new version of Firefox(free) and running the tools in that web browers and be prepared to be amazed.
I run an Intel-based Mac. On Mac, Wine is called DarWine. I have found very few programs that run in it correctly, outside of those created by Microsoft. I've tried out VMWare Fusion, and it ran few programs outside of Microsoft, even though they report a high level of compatibility. I've tried Parallels, and it did not run smoothly (high memory requirements). It also requires wrestling with Microsoft's copyright protection schemes, which I find a bigger waste of my time than I want to deal with. I have another, older Mac with VirtualPC on it, which I could use, but why run an older machine that processes at 800mHz when I have one that runs over 2gHz? BootCamp I haven't tried, I admit, but ultimately, it boils down to "why bother wresting with an emulator to run programs that most reviews suggest are poorly written?"
I have been able to access the Compendium using Safari, the Mac browser. I also have Firefox on my system, I simply don't use it often. Since 99% of the sites I visit work fine in Safari, why should I bother with anything else? Badly made, over-priced tools aren't a good reason.
Wine works with mac, or at least crossover does, I know I use it with Linux(Scientific Linux Fermi 5.1) and it "works worth a darn." [...] Maybe it's not the Mac but your lack of computing ability that is the problem here. They might be related since a lot of the less computer capable people I know seem to prefer Macs.
Heh. I develop software for Google. I think I know a fair amount about how to make software work. I prefer a Mac, and so do many of the other top flight software engineers inside and outside of Google. Others like Linux, some like Windows. I have kind of gotten beyond caring what platform someone else is productive in, but I do know what makes _me_ productive.
Parallels and VMWare are effective IME, but take up oodles of space, oodles of RAM, require working in Windows, and more importantly, require a Windows license. I have gotten to be more and more of a license stickler over the years. Eager to pay Microsoft their gelt in order to run tools that take over a major chunk of my machine, I am not.
Darwine, on the other hand, has not been so effective when I have tried it on various apps. If the character builder turns out to be one of the exceptions that works well, I will be very pleased, and will likely use it, but I am not holding out much hope based on my workday experiences using Darwine
All in all, I am only interested in the character builder, and perhaps the dungeon builder. The others may have utility later, but these would help my game today. Nothing really wrong with them, they are just not the tools I need today.
Dragon is just not worth $60/yr to my all by itself, but it does seem worth $30 or $40 like other magazines I subscribe to If the character builder works tolerably well on my Mac, without dual booting and without running hoggy or buggy software, then that would likely bridge the cost gap. I rather hope Wizards tests it thoroughly with Wine, but I am not optimistic. Were they doing that, I would kind of expect to have heard about it already.
Here is hoping I get pleasantly surprised.
Scott
I love JavaScript, it's what my treasure gen works off of. The result is instant, works on all computers and if you do it right, all browsers, even old computers, reduced server loads (the joy of client-side processing, less processing on your end, less transmission on your end). Using JavaScript and a lot of graphics, you can make some pretty impressive graphics, and the flash bonus tools could easily have been done in JS.
An example of a 4e tool written in JS: http://home.dralenan.com/dscript/rodent.html
your link wont work for me
page load error your link wont work for me
Works fine for me. Must be a WotC/Gleemax/forums redirect error.
3.0/3.5 was better, had fewer online lies ("it's coming -- keep spending money!" was limited to just "master tools" rather than the entire franchise) and wasn't dumbed down to eight pc races -- THREE of which were types of elves.
I'm not buying it. Figuratively or literally. I'm heading back to 3.5.
Anyone who needs these guys to design software for them to plot out something that a 9-year-old can do with pen and paper has too much free time on their hands anyhow.
I've written and re-written this post three times, and I keep coming back to one simple truth.
3.0/3.5 was better, had fewer online lies ("it's coming -- keep spending money!" was limited to just "master tools" rather than the entire franchise) and wasn't dumbed down to eight pc races -- THREE of which were types of elves.
I'm not buying it. Figuratively or literally. I'm heading back to 3.5.
Anyone who needs these guys to design software for them to plot out something that a 9-year-old can do with pen and paper has too much free time on their hands anyhow.
It's not truth. It's subjective bias, strawmanlicious.
I've written and re-written this post three times, and I keep coming back to one simple truth.
3.0/3.5 was better, had fewer online lies ("it's coming -- keep spending money!" was limited to just "master tools" rather than the entire franchise)
Un-quantifiable... otherwise known as opinion.
and wasn't dumbed down to eight pc races -- THREE of which were types of elves
There were seven races in 3.5, 2 of which were elves... So much for dumbing down... or "truth" for that matter.
ANyway. Topic.
This means that I won't be paying for D&D insider. I like the idea, and let's face it, the online game table could be great. That, plus the character builder are what I am most looking forward to.
For me, being a time-impared person, the virtual table sounds great, if fully implemented with tiles, figures, etc. However, it *only* sounds worth the money if there are tournaments and events held at the Game table, ala dungeon delves and "guest star" tables where a designer or writer or someone plays a session with the winning group (don't ask me how they won, maybe it was a tournament module). You are going to have one-shots and tournaments, right? For all of us who don't have weekly groups we can attend, but would love to get a monthly fix in?
Right?
Oh. Ok, sure...I understand. Well, good luck with it, WotC, I truly wish you the best. Love the printed products, and plan to buy most if not all of them. But I don't plan to buy D&D Insider. I already don't have time for a regular group. Why would I pay a monthly fee just to remind me of that?
Personally, I never really bought Dungeon or Dragon magazines. I prefer to wait for the "real" books and modules. I don't need help thinking up one-shots that everyone in my group is probably also reading. So, I most likely won't get the magazine subs.
This means that I won't be paying for D&D insider. I like the idea, and let's face it, the online game table could be great. That, plus the character builder are what I am most looking forward to.
For me, being a time-impared person, the virtual table sounds great, if fully implemented with tiles, figures, etc. However, it *only* sounds worth the money if there are tournaments and events held at the Game table, ala dungeon delves and "guest star" tables where a designer or writer or someone plays a session with the winning group (don't ask me how they won, maybe it was a tournament module). You are going to have one-shots and tournaments, right? For all of us who don't have weekly groups we can attend, but would love to get a monthly fix in?
Right?
Oh. Ok, sure...I understand. Well, good luck with it, WotC, I truly wish you the best. Love the printed products, and plan to buy most if not all of them. But I don't plan to buy D&D Insider. I already don't have time for a regular group. Why would I pay a monthly fee just to remind me of that?
Actually, many of us who are active in the RPGA are looking forward to the Game Table portion of D&Di to run games with people all over the world. Since RPGA modules and memberships are free - you'd be easily able to get into weekly games.
The Living campaign-style is designed to allow a player (like you) to make a character (or characters) and advance them through regular play. However, the individual adventures are episodic in nature, so you can play when you like, without needing to worry about missing much.
So, while the sessions will be player-driven, the modules are coming from the RPGA, which is a part of WotC.
Just sayin'.
Ok on to D&Di lets face it the game table is what everyone really wants, and thats the core of the experience.
If they made the magazines and the game table the two oieces you paid for and put them at 5 dollars a piece i dont think many would complain. those like me who just want to play with old groups or find a new one for casual play can do it. those who just want the magazines to supplement weekly table play can do it, and those who want both can get it all.
the other tools are quite simply nice to haves, they would mainly serve to encourage people to buy into the main tools, nothign more. a character visualizer is really only useful for putting the character on a virtual table top, and its worth somethign but not a subscription fee.
first off, i get pretty ****** off when people say "hey we're doing this at gencon" or something along those lines, & pretend that they're doing us a favor. a lot of gamers have no intention of ever going to a gencon or E3 or anything like that. it's not a matter of whether or not we want to go or how dedicated we are to being gamers. it's just that we have more important things to spend our time on, such as jobs, school, & families. so please, no more gencon plugs.
second, i can guarantee that i will not pay a dime for any sort of subscription until the game table is up. i'm not going to pay money to read a magazine & wish i could play. i'm not going to pay money to build a character, look at it, & wish i could use it. i'm not going to pay money to build a dungeon & wish i could play in it. i'm going to pay money to PLAY THE GAME. all these tools are great, but they really mean nothing until the game table is up & running for the general public.
third, as impressed as i am with 4.0, i am still not quite convinced that it's not all just a scam for more money. i am teetering on the edge of swearing off the entire game, and you're doing nothing to pull me back. i am begging you to convince me not to quit this game. please do not let me down.
i believe i speak for a lot of players as i write this. it is aimed at WotC.
first off, i get pretty ****** off when people say "hey we're doing this at gencon" or something along those lines, & pretend that they're doing us a favor. a lot of gamers have no intention of ever going to a gencon or E3 or anything like that. it's not a matter of whether or not we want to go or how dedicated we are to being gamers. it's just that we have more important things to spend our time on, such as jobs, school, & families. so please, no more gencon plugs.Keep in mind that GenCon isn't a show owned by WotC, it's a company all its own. So they aren't trying to shill for GenCon.
However GenCon *IS* a huge concentration of gamers. No, not everyone can attend (regardless of desire - or lack thereof), but it's a great way for game companies to reach out to a large segment of their customer base in one concentrated area.
It just happens to be a convenient way for them to get a sampling of a good segment of their customer base, and also acts a perk for those already planning to be in attendance.second, i can guarantee that i will not pay a dime for any sort of subscription until the game table is up. i'm not going to pay money to read a magazine & wish i could play. i'm not going to pay money to build a character, look at it, & wish i could use it. i'm not going to pay money to build a dungeon & wish i could play in it. i'm going to pay money to PLAY THE GAME. all these tools are great, but they really mean nothing until the game table is up & running for the general public.
Nothing wrong with knowing what you want, and being willing to hold out for it. We're all hoping we get that sooner than later.third, as impressed as i am with 4.0, i am still not quite convinced that it's not all just a scam for more money. i am teetering on the edge of swearing off the entire game, and you're doing nothing to pull me back. i am begging you to convince me not to quit this game. please do not let me down.
Well, what would it take to convince you? It sounds like you're making an argument that having a completed D&Di package (with Game Table) might help convince you, though, ironically, that's an additional component you have to pay extra for.
Since D&Di is an extra addon with a recurring fee, what could WotC do to convince you 4E is a good standalone game and not a "scam for more money?"
third, as impressed as i am with 4.0, i am still not quite convinced that it's not all just a scam for more money.
Wait what, I feels a contradiction and a certain hypocrisy there.
15 is way to much for an unproven product, and for what they are offering even if it does work, I'd pay 5$/month MAYBE but never 15, that crazy for something as simple as what they are offering.
I kind of feel the same way, but the way I figure it, if I pay for a year (or, if they do something like another forum-goer suggested either in this thread or the DDI letter #2 thread, I forget, 3 or 5 year plans) then it'd be a lot less per month, and if I didn't like it enough during that time, I've paid a lot less per month, and I can just decide again once my time is up. I figure (rather optimistically) that any problems that might crop up initially, or any shortcomings, will be corrected by the time a year long subscription is up, so I'll likely want to renew for another year.
And I say I kind of feel the same way because while 15 bucks seems way too much, I think I'd pay like 12 a month for this, on a month-to-month basis. 5 seems too cheap, especially considering the game table and visualizer apps.
And I say I kind of feel the same way because while 15 bucks seems way too much, I think I'd pay like 12 a month for this, on a month-to-month basis. 5 seems too cheap, especially considering the game table and visualizer apps.
No, it doesn't. Not when you consider that there are no less than six alternatives available that range from free to a one-time fee of $40.
RPTools: MapTool - Free
ScreenMonkey 1.5 - $34.95
Fantasy Grounds II - $39.95
d20 Pro - $29.95
Battlegrounds - $32.00
kLoOge Werks - $40.00
Are there features that DDI will have that these do not? Maybe. However, I know that DDI relies heavily on Dungeon Tiles for their mapping, and maybe its just me, but I find Dungeon Tiles quite limiting. Yes, you can draw in your own rooms and areas (according to everything I've seen), but how will that reflect in the 3-D engine?
Thus far, the only advantage I see that DDI has over any of these alternatives is the fact that it is 3-D and you get to use official D&D Miniatures with it. Maybe that is worth $15 a month to some, but not to me; not when there are cheaper alternatives available.
No, it doesn't. Not when you consider that there are no less than six alternatives available that range from free to a one-time fee of $40.
RPTools: MapTool - Free
ScreenMonkey 1.5 - $34.95
Fantasy Grounds II - $39.95
d20 Pro - $29.95
Battlegrounds - $32.00
kLoOge Werks - $40.00
Are there features that DDI will have that these do not? Maybe. However, I know that DDI relies heavily on Dungeon Tiles for their mapping, and maybe its just me, but I find Dungeon Tiles quite limiting. Yes, you can draw in your own rooms and areas (according to everything I've seen), but how will that reflect in the 3-D engine?
Thus far, the only advantage I see that DDI has over any of these alternatives is the fact that it is 3-D and you get to use official D&D Miniatures with it. Maybe that is worth $15 a month to some, but not to me; not when there are cheaper alternatives available.
Well, like I said, it's not worth $15 a month to me, either. But I could see $12. I see your point though, about the game table/dungeon builder. Those apps all do it for less, if you're playing for more than six months, which 99% of us are, I imagine. I think the Visualizer, and then the interfacing between the Visualizer and the Game Table is what sinches it for me. I would pay 10 bucks a month just for the Character Visualizer/Builder and the Dungeon Builder/Game Table (and like 2 bucks a month for everything else on its own). But that's me. If another competing company was like, "Hey, here's a 3D character generator with more options and full facial morphology and whatnot, for less." the only thing holding me back would be whether you could port that into a game table environment.
I think the Visualizer, and then the interfacing between the Visualizer and the Game Table is what cinches it for me.
I would be more interested in the visualizer if I knew more about it; limitations and constraints, specifically. If I'm limited to a small selection of facial features and, say, the three basic somatotypes (ectomorph, mesomorph, and endomorph), then the visualizer is much less attractive to me. I've stated in other posts what I would expect to make it worth my while, and I have yet to hear any feedback on whether it will happen.
I was a member of DDO for about two years, and the level of customization with that engine is an example of what I consider too limited; choose eyes, nose, and mouth from about six samples of each, choose hairstyle from about 20 samples, choose color of hair, eyes, and flesh, choose from a facial scar or six arrangements of facial piercings. All characters have basically the same build.
I want complete customization. I want to be able to make a fat halfling, a busty elf, an anorexic dwarf, or an abnormally small dragonborn. I want to have characters that may break the rules, such as a human wielding two falchions, or a halfling with a spiked chain. I want the chainmail my elf wears to look different from the chainmail my dwarf is wearing. I don't want to choose from a small variety of action poses; I want to be able to pose the figure myself (or else, have a selection of 30 or so of the most common poses).
In short, anything that I could do, were I a half-skilled artist, I would like to be able to do with the visualizer. Sure, I understand that there are limitations. You will never attain the absolute level of customization that you have as an artist, but I would (for the price they are asking) expect a broad field.
Since D&Di is an extra addon with a recurring fee, what could WotC do to convince you 4E is a good standalone game and not a "scam for more money?"
I can't speak for the OP, but personally, putting things like Alchemy (from the Adventurer's Vault) in separate books that I have to purchase in order to get mechanics that should have been part of the core rules is a prime example. Same goes for druids, bards, and things like animal companions.
I guess what someone said about free marketing in an earlier post is something WotC hasn't considered much in making this decision.
I can't speak for the OP, but personally, putting things like Alchemy (from the Adventurer's Vault) in separate books that I have to purchase in order to get mechanics that should have been part of the core rules is a prime example. Same goes for druids, bards, and things like animal companions.
I need to ask why yopu consider these things that should have been a part of the core? At what point does something objectively qualify as "core" or "optional?"
I want complete customization. I want to be able to make a fat halfling, a busty elf, an anorexic dwarf, or an abnormally small dragonborn.
Everything I've seen and read indicate you can do those things, (or at least will be able to eventually).
I want to have characters that may break the rules, such as a human wielding two falchions, or a halfling with a spiked chain.
No idea about this specifically, but I doubt the program will check to see what you are putting on is rules-legal or not. 2-handed weapons I'm not sure about but it's an easy fix if they limited it initially.
I want the chainmail my elf wears to look different from the chainmail my dwarf is wearing.
They will be customizable a fair amount, things like colors and adding glow effects.
I don't want to choose from a small variety of action poses; I want to be able to pose the figure myself (or else, have a selection of 30 or so of the most common poses).
I believe they said you could pose it as you wanted and it would remember, but whether that was cut in favor of expediency I don't know.
I need to ask why yopu consider these things that should have been a part of the core? At what point does something objectively qualify as "core" or "optional?"
From the first AD&D core book, druids have been a part of the core rules. Even bards, technically, fall into this category (though the bard was an optional class until 2E). With druids, animal companions are a reasonable expectation. As for alchemy, did it occur to anyone that PC will want to know how sunrods are created, if not create them themselves? Come on.
From the first AD&D core book, druids have been a part of the core rules. Even bards, technically, fall into this category (though the bard was an optional class until 2E). With druids, animal companions are a reasonable expectation. As for alchemy, did it occur to anyone that PC will want to know how sunrods are created, if not create them themselves? Come on.
But again, at what point does this become objectively needed as "core" or objectively needed as an "optional" component?
Are you saying simply because it was core in 1st edition this means it must be core in all other editions?
I think a better measure would be- Can you play the game without this component? If yes, it's optional, if no it should be core.
Can I play the game without knowing how to "make" a sunrod? Yes.
Dwarf and Elf are classes not races. How does that fit for core? What does that do to Eladrin and Half-elf?
Core races/classes will always be revolved around the edition people favored last. Whatever edition you played prior to 4th for example.
The only true core classes are: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Rogue. Anything else is subject to change. Those original four roles are what make up the class system.
Also with 4th, there is nothing that is optional, and all is core.
Also with 4th, there is nothing that is optional
I disagree. Let's say I think Martial Power is unbalanced or I just don't want to access the content from the book. It won't be used in my games. Simple as that. Everything is optional until I say its included in my game.
I disagree. Let's say I think Martial Power is unbalanced or I just don't want to access the content from the book. It won't be used in my games. Simple as that. Everything is optional until I say its included in my game.
BAM! Thank you! Rule Zero: The Dungeon Master makes the rules. Period.
Now, as for what is optional and what is not, all I'm saying is that to remove elements that have been core in prior editions, which they know that people will want (bards, druids) and put them in supplements, is a money-making scheme.
And to use your own logic: Can I play the game without druids as a class? Yes, but since I enjoy playing druids, it curtails some of my enjoyment of the game.
Now, as for what is optional and what is not, all I'm saying is that to remove elements that have been core in prior editions, which they know that people will want (bards, druids) and put them in supplements, is a money-making scheme.
A) This PHB seems to be much more balanced then the 3-"include everything and the kitchen sink" edition. I don't know about you but I much prefer a balanced game to a everything-included in the PHB game. B) RPGs as a whole are created to make money for their creators. Its not something new to 4e.
Now, as for what is optional and what is not, all I'm saying is that to remove elements that have been core in prior editions, which they know that people will want (bards, druids) and put them in supplements, is a money-making scheme.
This one of my top ten complaints with 4th ed. When WotC comes right out and tells us that things where deliberately left out of the first 3 books to help sell and reinforce the core nature of the "core II books" then that's when it all became clear that D&D has become a money-making scheme. Compare pg 212 threw 214 in the 4ed PHB to pg 122 threw 125 in the 3.5PHB to pg 104 threw 106 in the 3E PHB. Just look at the first non champaign rules supplement to be released "Adventurer's Vault". Gordon Gekko was wrong. There is a difference between profit and greed and WotC is waking the razer's edge.
This one of my top ten complaints with 4th ed. When WotC comes right out and tells us that things where deliberately left out of the first 3 books to help sell and reinforce the core nature of the "core II books" then that's when it all became clear that D&D has become a money-making scheme.
Look at the credits pages for the books. Check out how many people work on them. Now, do you want that to be a one time thing and then those guys are out on the street, or would you like continued product support? There needs to be a "money-making scheme" or else there will be no D&D.
Look at the credits pages for the books. Check out how many people work on them. Now, do you want that to be a one time thing and then those guys are out on the street, or would you like continued product support? There needs to be a "money-making scheme" or else there will be no D&D.
That money making scheme should be the DDI, not the physical product to rip people off by going out of the way to make sure that people have to buy next years' core books, in order to get the same game they had from the core of the previous edition.
By now everyone knows classes change over the editions, but with a long standing edition that drew so many people like 3rd claimed to do, the worst thing to do was split what was p[resent there over several years worth of books to force people into paying double for the game.
The money should be coming from DDI rather than making a half functioning game from the physical product. Yes the game can be played without, but consumers are kinda odd in that they don't buy what they feel is not complete.
Like if the Game table was free, then charging for v-Minis would make more sense, but they want to charge for both.
MTGO is a suckers game as is because you pay for fake Magic cards and get nothing for your money. Seems like the same thing with Game Table. Sure IF you get a whole set within the alloted time for MTGO, then you get that set mailed to you, but that just makes MTGO like gambling which is not legal in all states.
Does Game Table offer all the minis from DDM? Can you collect a whole set in it and get the set mailed to you?
They have money-making schemes already all over DDI, they didn't need to do it with the game itself.
That money making scheme should be the DDI, not the physical product to rip people off by going out of the way to make sure that people have to buy next years' core books, in order to get the same game they had from the core of the previous edition.
So future physical book products should be done for what, charity?
By now everyone knows classes change over the editions, but with a long standing edition that drew so many people like 3rd claimed to do, the worst thing to do was split what was p[resent there over several years worth of books to force people into paying double for the game.
No one is "forced". That doesn't mean you can't complain about the way things were done or the pricing, but "forced" is a silly claim.
The money should be coming from DDI rather than making a half functioning game from the physical product. Yes the game can be played without, but consumers are kinda odd in that they don't buy what they feel is not complete.
The game functions fine; it's not like they left out the rules for Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence from the first books.
But I suspect you're right in one part here: the decisions are made based on what consumers have been shown to buy. And it looks like that is what they're wanting to put in the next set of books they plan to invest money in. Doesn't sound so crazy to me.
They have money-making schemes already all over DDI, they didn't need to do it with the game itself.
I'm not interested in the computer game aspects of DDI, so I'm really thankful that the actual game is still considered a serious product in its own right, not just a loss-leader to draw people in to the digital subscription model.
More quality books (in both printed and PDF form) is what I want, and having things that will sell in those books is the only reasonable way to do it.
i'm about to become a cantankerous old dinosaur, i guess.
i bought the basic 4.0 books, but they're never going to get used.
i miss my hardcopy magazine subscriptions and i'm probably going to play 3.5 forever.
good bye, wtc
More quality books (in both printed and PDF form) is what I want, and having things that will sell in those books is the only reasonable way to do it.
Agreed, but why make the decision to sell books that rehash old material that should have been in the game from the start? Why not make that material available int he core rules, and sell *gasp* new material that can stand on its own merit?
Agreed, but why make the decision to sell books that rehash old material that should have been in the game from the start? Why not make that material available int he core rules, and sell *gasp* new material that can stand on its own merit?
It's a difficult balance. If the new books contain all the old stuff reworked, everyone will complain that they're just trying to sell everything again in a different color. If they contain just new material, there's a very big risk that many people will consider it to be obscure add-on material.
All in all, this is a very inexpensive hobby. I spend less on D&D than I do on going to movies, and since I had kids I barely go to movies anymore.
once they switch over to pay service, i'm out.
i'm about to become a cantankerous old dinosaur, i guess.
i bought the basic 4.0 books, but they're never going to get used.
i miss my hardcopy magazine subscriptions and i'm probably going to play 3.5 forever.
good bye, wtc
Have you actually played 4e? Don't knock it 'til you've played it. There are bunches of people (myself included) who didn't like the look of the rules until they actually used them in a game. Forget the online content if you don't like it or aren't willing to pay for it. Give the actual game a try.
Have you actually played 4e? Don't knock it 'til you've played it. There are bunches of people (myself included) who didn't like the look of the rules until they actually used them in a game. Forget the online content if you don't like it or aren't willing to pay for it. Give the actual game a try.
I agree with Calion - I was not too keen on what i'd read and heard about 4e, but I played it for three days at the Strategicon Gamex 2008. I came away in love with the gameplay.
Try out the rules in a game, and see if you like them or not. Even if the online stuff isn't your bag (it isn't mine), you may find you like the ruleset.
I agree with Calion - I was not too keen on what i'd read and heard about 4e, but I played it for three days at the Strategicon Gamex 2008. I came away in love with the gameplay.
Try out the rules in a game, and see if you like them or not. Even if the online stuff isn't your bag (it isn't mine), you may find you like the ruleset.
These kind of comments hearten me quite a bit. I love it, and one of my players is 100% against it, so it'd be nice if he could play it and love it like the other six of my players did.
These kind of comments hearten me quite a bit. I love it, and one of my players is 100% against it, so it'd be nice if he could play it and love it like the other six of my players did.
I know the feeling - in my (semi) regular gaming group, no one else has purchased the materials or expressed much interest in playing, and one of the players has even gone so far as to say he wasn't interested in playing 4E.
They haven't tried it, but I think they've just read/heard stuff that didn't sound like it would be fun. When I mention some of the stuff I find interesting and fun about 4E, they seem intrigued, though, so I take that as a good sign as far as getting people on board with the new rules.
I'm going to run a 4E game and give them a good taste of what the game system is like. I suspect once they give it a shot and see how fun it can be, they'll change their minds. It's still DnD, after all, it's just not the minutiae-oriented game like 3.x was. Once they get past the idea that they *need* all those prestige classes and feats to make their uber-characters with cool concepts, I suspect they'll have some fun using the new system to devise cool character concepts, rather than simply exercising their game-mechanic expertise.
I know the feeling - in my (semi) regular gaming group, no one else has purchased the materials or expressed much interest in playing, and one of the players has even gone so far as to say he wasn't interested in playing 4E.
They haven't tried it, but I think they've just read/heard stuff that didn't sound like it would be fun. When I mention some of the stuff I find interesting and fun about 4E, they seem intrigued, though, so I take that as a good sign as far as getting people on board with the new rules.
I'm going to run a 4E game and give them a good taste of what the game system is like. I suspect once they give it a shot and see how fun it can be, they'll change their minds. It's still DnD, after all, it's just not the minutiae-oriented game like 3.x was. Once they get past the idea that they *need* all those prestige classes and feats to make their uber-characters with cool concepts, I suspect they'll have some fun using the new system to devise cool character concepts, rather than simply exercising their game-mechanic expertise.
To bring it on topic a bit, one of the reasons I'm so pumped for the finished DDI is because Game Table eliminates a lot of the hemming and hawing excuses that this one reticent player has about not playing. I can get a reason out of him, and if its one where he has to stay home for whatever reason, I'll give him an e-vite to Game Table and he can be part of the game and even talk and listen through the program's proprietary voice over internet system.
So future physical book products should be done for what, charity?
No but the whole idea of staggering and multiple version of the PHB as core, is just a ploy to make people think more highly of these splatbooks that just happen to carry the name of PHB on them.
Look at Hasbro. They own MANY board games. How many people do you see run out and buy a new copy of Monopoly each year?
I may be a bit old, but I think things should be built to last. Needing to replace a PHB each year to me sounds like you couldn't do it right the first time, so why should I trust you the second?
I don't expect to go buy a new 2009 car and have to get parts for it over the next few years until I have a complete car. 4th has no optional components as that negative connotation is removed because EVERYTHING is core, and nothing is optional. So in order to have a compelte 4th edition I must wait until ALL products have been released in order to play with a complete game.
I doubt I would ever buy the Monopoly board, then months later buy the money, then the thimble, then the car.
I buy complete products not kits. Even my models come as complete kits with extras rather than having to wait months to a year in order to be able to finish them due to lack of responsibility of the manufacturer and neglect to realize they didn't provide sufficient materials to complete the model.
They are changing the game concept not me.
Every other edition was complete with the core 1, 2, or 3 books; and all else was optional. But that term optional caused the negative connotation that making PHB II and DMG II and all other things as core will prevent in the future, and be strengthen by purposefully withholding parts of the game for later books to show that they are core, and not jsut optional. Thus making people have to wait for some marketing ploy to rip people off.
Wrong answer.
WotC seems to be the last company that thinks the consumer is stupid. Haven't we seen this from a gaming company in regards to RPGs and D&D specifically from the past where the head of the company thought that gamers were sub-human and stupid...Lorraine Williams?
That is all I can see in 4th edition and its entire design and marketing. Lorraine Williams all over the place.
I didn't like 3rd because I didn't, but 4th is a whole new animal whereas 3rd did not pull this kind of crap that 4th is doing to bring back the past.
All I can say is if WotC wants to act like LW, then I hope they all end up like her. Where is she now.......?
DDI also sounds like the Blumes get rich quick scheme of having all this stuff spread out to novelty items that would make a quick buck at the expense of the "brand" name with no regards for its future, but just to earn as much money as possible before letting it all fold under. But this is common Hasbro practice.
I can't see anything WotC does with these things in mind as being done truly by or for gamers, but rather by corporate shills. So make your fast buck quick, and maybe in the future when people are more interested in making a quality product with good communication with its customers, then maybe D&D will stand a chance again.
Other than that the whole PHBII, PHBIII, PHBIV....is only going to kill D&D.
Tell me why all of a sudden do we here about professionally printed power cards? Seems like something they didn't want to do, but low and behold here they come! Makes you wonder why WotC didn't think about that and just go ahead and make a firm decision on it rather than having to be told by the forums that people wanted them. Bow that they are coming it may be a bit too late since people offer them for free or can make them for free. Another poor decision made by WotC and poor planning that costs WotC and D&D.
THAT is where that money scheme should be. Those silly things dedicated to D&D that will generate future income for WotC rather than splatbooks in disguise as part 2 of the core books.
Its a damn wonder that dice aren't given freely with PHBs still at this day and age. Even a silly paper spinner with rings for each die type. The one part of D&D that WotC doesn't make....yet there are many of companies that could make dice so cheap that WotC could have them stamped D&D or 4th edition and sell them through their "Wizards of the Coast Premiere Stores".
Useful things rather than crap like a D&D Frisbee, that is where the continuing income is from.
These kind of comments hearten me quite a bit. I love it, and one of my players is 100% against it, so it'd be nice if he could play it and love it like the other six of my players did.
I won't say that I love it, but I do enjoy it. It is a fresh look at a familiar game. I liked 3.5. In fact, I'm, one of the few who initially thought that it was pretty close to perfect (until True20 (see below).
When 4E was announced, I was one of the first to decry it as the herald of the apocalypse. But I gave it a try and found that, while it isn't the D&D I'm used to, it's different enough to be fun. What I'm arguing is the fact that they took away some of the familiar elements that made it more fun (like druids, for example).
Personally, I haven't even played 3.5 for several months, not since I found True20, which is IMHO everything d20 System should have been.
4E is a great effort and a fun game, but it feels like it is missing some things to those of us who grew up with D&D and have played it from the very beginnings. To see them pimping out those elements in an effort to stretch their earnings hurts.
D&D is a game, something fun people buy to entertain themselves. And the 3 core books they just released work perfectly fine. I've used them several times already!
Compairing it to a half assembled monopoly is silly. Without the game pieces I can't play monopoly. Without the Artificer or the Barbarian I can still play the game of D&D I bought. The two are NOT the same.
WoTC isn't calling us stupid. They're selling us products we want. Just like when I was a kid, I had Optimus Prime... He worked just fine, but still I wanted Megatron and then when the time came I wanted Rodumus Prime.
You don't NEED anything WoTC sells in the future to play 4e despite whatever they decide to print on the front of the book. I'd say getting upset at a company for offering exansions is just greed man. You want the expansions and don't want to pay for it. Too bad. Make due with just optimus prime.
TSR comparisons are cliche'
Compairing it to a half assembled monopoly is silly. Without the game pieces I can't play monopoly. Without the Artificer or the Barbarian I can still play the game of D&D I bought. The two are NOT the same.
Yes the two are not the same, however I would argue D&D is not the same either.
White book had three classes, Fighter, Cleric (perhaps Druid, as that is reported the genies of the fantasy RP concept) and Wizard (or magic man).
1st, 2nd and 3rd included classes like Paladin, Bard, Druid.
4th does not yet include Druid or Bard and redefined Paladin to be any alignment (thus making the Paladin a totally new class). Not only excluding traditional classes from D&D they add core classes of Warlock and Warlord.
The Warlock under at least older rules needs to be Evil aligned.
The Warlord was a splat class. (1)
Also the races have changed as to what are basic races. I was not happy to discover the Kobolds were Dragon-kin in 3rd, but now we have a new Dragon-kin in 4th as well, that are also evil tended.
It is a new game or it is only parts of the prior existing game.
*Splat* races and classes are now core as opposed to what was core last edition. It is only part of a D&D game for any that played any prior edition, it of course is a complete game if it stood on its own not branded D&D and fully playable.
(1) The gender nuetrality gone is an additional issue as far as I am concerned.
The Player's Handbook II includes "...gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters." [sarcasm]Oh, golly. There's a surprise![/sarcasm] I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it also includes bards, druids, barbarians, and a ritual for gaining a familiar.
Oh, look. It seems as though I'm correct after all.
Rich Baker says, on the FR sourcebooks, "...there are mentions of bards, druids, gnomes, and barbarians sprinkled throughout..." He goes on to allude that these will be in the PH2. Hmmm. I must be psychic.
Well okay, maybe the ritual for familiars will wait until the arcane splatbook.
I also note a goliath on the cover.
But perhaps I'm not being fair. After all, it also has "...ghostly-looking felines..." about which "James remains coy."
A handful of new material does not make up for offering us old material that was core in previous editions! I might be wrong, but I'll continue to protest until I see that my fears are unfounded.
Well, looks like we've completely exhausted the topic of feedback for DDI. :rolleye2:
Apparently.
Marginally on topic though, the DDI will release the betas of many classes before they print them in books, so it potentially saves you money by showing you what is in a book and maybe completely replaces the book if the beta turns out to be the same as what's printed.
I would prefer people stop having the mindset of "It was in a previous edition's main books at one point in time, so now it must be forever more." Do you see how big the PHB is? Seriously it's a huge book. Even if they had all the other classes worked out mechanically nobody wants to by a dictionary-sized rulebooks.
Franky they did not have all the other classes worked out. Their years of playtesting handled only a small number of classes, and the huge numbers of powers each has. They tried to make those balanced. They said numerous times they hadn't even started on the Monk when the PHB came out. It's unreasonable to require them to include classes that haven't been designed fully I think.
Now that the base rules are down (mostly) they can put out new classes and races faster. Hence the next book.
It's a ludicrous claim that you can't play 4th edition without a Druid, a full Gnome writeup, or alchemy. I've just been doing it for months. I don't personally miss the Druid all that much. I don't personally miss the Barbarian all that much. Some people do, but that doesn't mean their beliefs are "real core" and mine aren't. Lots of people LOVE the Warlord and Warlock, why is their like for those classes "wrong" compared to your like for the legacy classes?
It's incredible I know, but all books past these first 3 are purely optional. Marketing may try to convince you otherwise, as does every single product in the world that tries to make money, but that depends on how easy to manipulate you personally are.
If you can survive without a druid (for instance) then you don't need the PHB 2. For people who would like to have a druid, then they can buy it after it comes out. Pity it couldn't fit in the first core book, but there's a limit to how much information you can squeeze into a single book and still have it be readable.
Honestly, even in the PHB2 you aren't going to get the same Druid class you loved from 3.5 -- they may as well call it something else. "Druid" itself is the brand name, the actual product is a 4th edition class with nature-themed flavor. If you believe the 4th edition class with a nature-themed flavor that just happens to be named a "druid" (like the 3rd edition, and before that were all actually different classes) is required before you can consider a game "finished" then I don't know what to say. They could have called a Warlord a Druid, would that have made you happy?
Man Hellmute... Sometimes I wish I could just give you a beer and say... relax.
D&D is a game, something fun people buy to entertain themselves. And the 3 core books they just released work perfectly fine. I've used them several times already!
Compairing it to a half assembled monopoly is silly. Without the game pieces I can't play monopoly. Without the Artificer or the Barbarian I can still play the game of D&D I bought. The two are NOT the same.
WoTC isn't calling us stupid. They're selling us products we want. Just like when I was a kid, I had Optimus Prime... He worked just fine, but still I wanted Megatron and then when the time came I wanted Rodumus Prime.
You don't NEED anything WoTC sells in the future to play 4e despite whatever they decide to print on the front of the book. I'd say getting upset at a company for offering exansions is just greed man. You want the expansions and don't want to pay for it. Too bad. Make due with just optimus prime.
TSR comparisons are cliche'
And to be honest...it's going to work. On me anyway. I'm eager to see the PHBII to see if they've got animal companions and familiars. So, much as I agree it sucks in some ways, they've got to find ways to make the splat books appealing. Not everything can be as essential as Unearthed Arcana or the Manual of the Planes...
It's incredible I know, but all books past these first 3 are purely optional. Marketing may try to convince you otherwise, as does every single product in the world that tries to make money, but that depends on how easy to manipulate you personally are.
If you can survive without a druid (for instance) then you don't need the PHB 2. For people who would like to have a druid, then they can buy it after it comes out. Pity it couldn't fit in the first core book, but there's a limit to how much information you can squeeze into a single book and still have it be readable.
Actually, depending on how and what you play, further books are not optional. For instance, we Dark Sun folks have to wait for the Psionics Handbook to start serious work on 4e DS. And you know what? I don't mind a bit...I just hope they hurry! (And for the record, no, I'm not rich. I can't even afford the core books yet. But I will!)
consumers are kinda odd in that they don't buy what they feel is not complete.
Then they're welcome not to buy it. WotC made it abundantly clear what would be and wouldn't be in the PHB and I'm personally thankful they're putting more time into the classes and races.
Why not make that material available int he core rules, and sell *gasp* new material that can stand on its own merit?
Because from what I hear 3e was massively unbalanced.
I also love how it not being "core" (however you define that :rolleyes
actually makes a difference. If you want to play it, play it. If you're DM won't let you, then either discuss the issue with him (perhaps there's a good reason) or find a DM that will. For a DM to say "it's not core so it's not allowed" is simply ridiculous. Your DM is supposedly your friend, right?Needing to replace a PHB each year
You might actually have valid arguments hellmute. But its hard to find them in the middle of these comments.
nothing is optional.
I'm glad to see that WotC's ninja strike force is able to come into your house and tell you that you're playing the game wrong if you don't have every single book.
But that term optional caused the negative connotation that making PHB II and DMG II and all other things as core will prevent in the future, and be strengthen by purposefully withholding parts of the game for later books to show that they are core, and not jsut optional.
A) I don't have to allow druids in my game. Therefore they're optional. B) I love how much you worry about perception rather then the product itself. Is the PHB2 actually any good? Or is it a terrible splat book? I doubt you'll ever find the answer because you're too busy trying to thwart WotC's dastardly plot of making money.
Thus making people have to wait for some marketing ploy to rip people off.
Funnily enough I don't feel ripped off by having to buy 2 books to get balanced classes and extra races. And if they're imbalanced, I'll either not get the product or if I find out too late, take a lot more of a hard look at WotC's future products. But I guess this is just a sign of how well WotC's secret mind control ray is working.
poor planning that costs WotC and D&D.
You seem to show quite a bit of concern for a company you clearly detest. I'm starting to think you simply like the sound of your own voice.
You seem to show quite a bit of concern for a company you clearly detest. I'm starting to think you simply like the sound of your own voice.
I couldn't give a damn less about WotC. I just hate worthless programs that a bunch of simps are compelled to buy due to hype that function poorly. What are those 3rd edition suite of tools called? Was there one that worked properly?
AD&D Core Rules had minor flaws, but worked spectacularly.
Any software I have gotten from WotC seems to be worse than what could be done on a trash-80.
I hate bad programs, and bad programmers.
Correction. The DDM Warband Generator was fully functioning after a few additions were made to it that includes limiting displayed minis to your own collection, or what have you.
E-Tools, Master Tools, Gleemax, DDI Bonus Tools, shall I name the list of other software failures for WotC?
I couldn't give a damn less about WotC. ...
E-Tools, Master Tools, Gleemax, DDI Bonus Tools, shall I name the list of other software failures for WotC?
As you have no vested interest in WotC, the current version of D&D, or DDI, perhaps you should turn your concern and anger towards other things in the world such as poverty, human rights and values, energy issues and so on. Then the rest of us could use this forum to discuss a hobby we enjoy, and use this thread to talk about DDI!
Just a thought. And really. Decaf. Check it out.
As you have no vested interest in WotC, the current version of D&D, or DDI, perhaps you should turn your concern and anger towards other things in the world such as poverty, human rights and values, energy issues and so on. Then the rest of us could use this forum to discuss a hobby we enjoy, and use this thread to talk about DDI!
Just a thought. And really. Decaf. Check it out.
How about educational value of entertainment products? But you probably don't see how DDI could play any part of that either huh?
Look at the shotty work WotC did with their software and website. They make lots of money from MtG, so they must be making software correctly for any kind of use....WRONG!
There is SO much room for improvement and quality of the DDI, and I cannot sit by and let subpar software roll out when I could say something that could effect it to becoming a better product even for people who I would never game with as I have no "vested interest" in 4th edition.
I just hate bad software no matter who you are and don't care to see D&D Insider Vista presented by Microsoft of the Coast.
I bet DDI will be ready for use on the N-Gage prior to anything for a Mac.
I bet DDI will be ready for use on the N-Gage prior to anything for a Mac.
You wanna do this through PayPal? How much you wanna bet? I'll put up 200 bucks that it'll be ready for use on Mac before N-Gage.
I cannot sit by and let subpar software roll out when I could say something that could effect it to becoming a better product
I think I speak for many when I say: thanks for nothing.
P.S. I doubt WotC is going to pay much attention to your angry rantings.
I think I speak for many when I say: thanks for nothing.
P.S. I doubt WotC is going to pay much attention to your angry rantings.
I respectfully agree.
Assuming a monthly subscription
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month
I would pay for the following...not because the other stuff is bad (or might be), but for the simple reason that I don't need it, and as a result don't want it.
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
$7.85
I won't pay more for stuff I don't want than the value I see for stuff I do want.
$8.85
That just seems a bit silly, and while I have money to spend, I fail to see the logic in doing so. I can blow the cash on other things without a problem.
Unless Wizards fells that some of these apps really have no retail value, and so they hide them inside the package with other items, I see no loss of value to doing it this way. Hell, you can even keep your 3mo and 12mo packages for a "complete" set.
I'd still rather pay $7.85/mo for the three items I want.
I think I speak for many when I say: thanks for nothing.
P.S. I doubt WotC is going to pay much attention to your angry rantings.
And yet even though I am sure I am on most of thw WotC staff ignore list as anti-WotC as I am I have still seen my own quotes in every report Gamer_Zer0 has posted to the public as PART of what he sends in to his superiors.
I simply am bold and unafraid to speak my mind, and don't take bull about what software or people can or cannot do. The cannot does not exist most times like people claim, it is the choice not to do something, or lack of ability for a software designer to know how to do it.
Also funny the a-la-carte method I was a big component in forcing through came through in a fashion to many people's approval in that there is now a web-content only model that you can pay for.
They don't have to take ANY of my ideas, but it would behoove them to listen, because unlike many running around here...I know a good deal about the consumer, and the programs they are offering. And if for no other reason, I am one of their customers as much as I hate the stupid little DDM game changes for 2.0 I still buy them if even only through the secondary market, so they are still getting sales on current items due to me.
So maybe your opinion about other users is not so high as you would want it to be.
The point is things are being done in a bad way and many people can see it and will not accept it. See the new GSL when it comes out if you don't believe that. The only way WotC will know what the customers will accept is by listening to all of them from the most timid agreer to the loudest opposer. Because they are your range of acceptance for the product. That just means you must find the middle ground that will make the most people in between there happy.
I will keep my bar and expectations high even if i never use any of the software, so that other people do not get crap software.
Yes the two are not the same, however I would argue D&D is not the same either.
White book had three classes, Fighter, Cleric (perhaps Druid, as that is reported the genies of the fantasy RP concept) and Wizard (or magic man).
1st, 2nd and 3rd included classes like Paladin, Bard, Druid.
4th does not yet include Druid or Bard and redefined Paladin to be any alignment (thus making the Paladin a totally new class). Not only excluding traditional classes from D&D they add core classes of Warlock and Warlord.
The Warlock under at least older rules needs to be Evil aligned.
The Warlord was a splat class. (1)
Also the races have changed as to what are basic races. I was not happy to discover the Kobolds were Dragon-kin in 3rd, but now we have a new Dragon-kin in 4th as well, that are also evil tended.
It is a new game or it is only parts of the prior existing game.
*Splat* races and classes are now core as opposed to what was core last edition. It is only part of a D&D game for any that played any prior edition, it of course is a complete game if it stood on its own not branded D&D and fully playable.
(1) The gender nuetrality gone is an additional issue as far as I am concerned.
Yes it's D&D 4th edition... It's not the same as the other editions. No edition has been exactly the same as the edition prior to it. That would be silly, and there would be no reason to add the new edition number to it.
If you'd rather play another edition, go play it... What's stopping you?
This guy?
Yes it's D&D 4th edition... It's not the same as the other editions. No edition has been exactly the same as the edition prior to it. That would be silly, and there would be no reason to add the new edition number to it.
It is not about the new edition; it never has been. I like the new edition. I like what the game has become. It is a different game, yes, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having to pay for things that, so far as I am concerned, should have been available from the beginning.
Druids have been a part of the game from its beginning. As my favorite class, if I can't play one in the new edition without having to pay extra money for a supplement, my enjoyment is curtailed. Can I make adaptations, sure? But should I have to? Well, maybe. But it goes beyond that.
The Players Handbook II, from what I have seen, just converts old material to the new edition. And yet they will charge us... oh, let's say $35.00 for material that they know will sell because many of us want it and have wanted it from the first.
All I'm saying is that it is a blatant cash grab.
It is not about the new edition; it never has been. I like the new edition. I like what the game has become. It is a different game, yes, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having to pay for things that, so far as I am concerned, should have been available from the beginning.
Ok I can understand an opinion, everyone is allowed one... Bust saying you HAVE to pay for soemthing is a bit of a stretch... This is a lieasure activity. You don't HAVE to pay for any of it.
What it really seems like you're saying is you're upset that WoTC has a product you want. :p
Druids have been a part of the game from its beginning. As my favorite class, if I can't play one in the new edition without having to pay extra money for a supplement, my enjoyment is curtailed. Can I make adaptations, sure? But should I have to? Well, maybe. But it goes beyond that.
The Players Handbook II, from what I have seen, just converts old material to the new edition. And yet they will charge us... oh, let's say $35.00 for material that they know will sell because many of us want it and have wanted it from the first.
All I'm saying is that it is a blatant cash grab.
I guess I see it differently?
I see it as a space issue... The first book (in addition to presenting the rules) spends it's room on 3 power sources. Martial, Arcane, and Divine.
Sure, you can argue that they instead of putting in the warlord should have put in the druid, but you also in doing so, need to look at the other effects this would have had. More magic items dedicated to the new power source, more weapons deadicated to the new classes, more powers in the other classes designed to synergize with the new power source.
Plus you'd have to go back to the MM and start bringing in monsters that account for some of the new features and powers.
Overall the effect would have needed to be more space dedicated, or a half assed druid, bard, and barbarian.
I'd prefer that they let those classes come out later in a form that gives us more.
It is not about the new edition; it never has been. I like the new edition. I like what the game has become. It is a different game, yes, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having to pay for things that, so far as I am concerned, should have been available from the beginning.
Druids have been a part of the game from its beginning. As my favorite class, if I can't play one in the new edition without having to pay extra money for a supplement, my enjoyment is curtailed. Can I make adaptations, sure? But should I have to? Well, maybe. But it goes beyond that.
The Players Handbook II, from what I have seen, just converts old material to the new edition. And yet they will charge us... oh, let's say $35.00 for material that they know will sell because many of us want it and have wanted it from the first.
All I'm saying is that it is a blatant cash grab.
If I had gotten an 80 page PHB with crappy art and a loose binding then yeah I would agree with you.
Smudge issues aside, I cannot complain about the PHB. There are simply too many new mechanics and crunch involved with the new system to include everything without making the book dictionary sized, and if that was so we'd probably still be waiting for release and have to pay $100 for it, which would provoke more complaints I'm sure.
The only way I think they could have squeezed the other classes in was to cut out the epic and paragon tier abilities and release them later. From a selfish standpoint that would have been great since my group is only 4th level so far but for fast-moving, play-every-day groups or for folks who want to dive right in to paragon or epic play, that would be disastrous as instead of certain classes entire campaigns or adventures would be shut down.
While on the surface the prospect of paying another $35 for design materials that were included before is a negative, what it comes down to is the new material worth the money? For me it's a yes. I get a balanced system that's robust enough to see my players through for the next year or more up to level 30. I get a system that is more fun for my players (that's the feedback I get), and I get a system that makes prep work much less of a pain. If the downside of all that is I have to pay an extra $35 because all the extra material requires two books, sign me up.
On a personal note, I've been doing my fair share to keep WOTC, Paizo, and my FLGS in business by shelling out about $400 for minis, $100 for the new books and DM screen, and another $150 in flip-maps, dungeon tiles, and other map accessories. I suppose I could complain about "having" to spend all that money but fact of the matter is my time is precious. I don't have time to draw detailed battle and world maps or paint pewter minis, so for me that money is all well spent (though I would like WOTC to sell lines of commons like Orcs, Kobolds and Goblins so I don't have to deal with E-bay to get a bunch of them)
Ok I can understand an opinion, everyone is allowed one... Bust saying you HAVE to pay for soemthing is a bit of a stretch... This is a lieasure activity. You don't HAVE to pay for any of it.
What it really seems like you're saying is you're upset that WoTC has a product you want. :p
No, I'm saying that I'm upset because I have to wait so long for that product.
As for having to purchase it, short of pirating the book, if I want the material, then yes, I HAVE to purchase it. And they know that I will want the material.
I like 4E. It's a great game. I also liked 3.5 and 1E. But as someone who has been with the game since very nearly the beginning, I feel (I believe understandably) betrayed that my favorite class is one of those that gets relegated to a supplement for which I have to shell out another $35 to $40 (if I want the official material).
Do I have to purchase it? After all, I could always make it up, or use what Wizards provided on the website for "converting" your 3.5 character, but if I want the official material, then the answer is yes.
As for keeping the industry in business; I own multiple copies of several 1E books (and at least one copy of each one produced), two copies of the 2E core books (and at least one copy of most hardcovers/softcovers for the system), more modules from 1E and 2E than will fit on a single bookcase, a multitude of 3.0 and 3.5 books, almost every boxed set ever produced for 2E, every boxed set ever made for the Basic game, every gazetteer from the Basic game, almost every issue of Dragon since #54, almost every issue of Dungeon since issue #1, and a multitude of non-D&D games from TSR. And that covers Wizards/TSR alone! Add in my support for other companies and the list gets even longer!
The point?
I've been doing my part to support the hobby and my local game stores for more than 25 years, but I guess that with all the rage to draw in new blood, the veterans don't get so much as a second thought.
No, I'm saying that I'm upset because I have to wait so long for that product.
As for having to purchase it, short of pirating the book, if I want the material, then yes, I HAVE to purchase it. And they know that I will want the material.
Sounds like they have an intelligent business model that's likely to succeed, then. Do you think they should publish material people do not want?
I've been following this argument on this thread for a while now. Here are the questions we need to ask to put this debate to bed.
* Is the PHB too short?
* Is the PHB full of unnecessary padding?
* Do people expect new stuff (races, classes) in a new edition of D&D?
If your answer to the first two questions is "no," and to the third is "yes," (as mine is) then, really, you can have no legitimate complaint that your favorite class/race/whatever isn't in the core ruleset. What were they going to do? Have no new classes so you could have your druid/bard/etc.? Have no new races so you could have your gnome/half-orc/etc.? The interest in the product would have been lessened, and people like you (maybe not actually you) would have been saying, "yawn, been there, seen that." So they put new stuff in, yes indeed hoping that people just like you would be willing to buy a second book to get their favorite marginal class/race/whatever (me, I'm still waiting for an updated Dark Sun. I've been waiting since 3e came out. Be glad your fringe favorite isn't as fringe as mine). If they bet wrong, the PHBII, etc. won't sell well, and if they bet really wrong, folks like you won't buy the PHB to begin with, and they'll pay the price.
Seriously, what did you expect them to do? Make a dictionary-sized PHB, and then put all new, strange and different stuff in the splat books? I don't think either one would have sold as well. I would not have bought a splat book containing only things like Dragonborn, Eldarin, Warlocks and Warlords, whereas I would buy a PHB containing them, AND buy a PHBII containing some new stuff and some old stuff I've been waiting for, like bards, gnomes, animal companions and familiars (and psionics rules! But they got pushed back
).They just want to sell their products, as many as they can. That's their job. They're a business. Yes, they want to make you happy. But they want to make you happy because they want your money. If you stop buying their products, that's a loss for them. But if they can give you enough of what you want (nobody is ever going to get everything they want in any edition of D&D; I'd love it if they released the PHBI, PHBII, and PHBIII all at once with a total cost for all three books of $10, but it's simply never going to happen) to get you to buy the core books and some splat books, regardless of whether or how much you gripe, they've achieved their (in my view legitimate) objective.
You have to think about more than just what YOU, one player, want. You have to think about how WOTC is going to meet the needs and wants of a majority of its player base, while drawing in new players, and maximizing their total profit. If you find a way to do that better, I'm sure they'd be eager to hear from you.
Sounds like they have an intelligent business model that's likely to succeed, then. Do you think they should publish material people do not want?
I've been following this argument on this thread for a while now. Here are the questions we need to ask to put this debate to bed.
* Is the PHB too short?
* Is the PHB full of unnecessary padding?
* Do people expect new stuff (races, classes) in a new edition of D&D?
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
No
Seriously? I mean, these are your answers, so fine, but how big (and therefore expensive) do you expect the PHB to be? And as for the padding, I presume you mean the new races/classes. YOU may not care for them, as is your privilege, but you don't think there's a substantial number of people out there who might be enticed to a new edition by new classes and races? Just to try them out, at least? All that number has to be is more than the number of people who won't buy the new PHB--ever--because it doesn't have their pet race or class in it. Have YOU bought the 4e PH?
Seriously? I mean, these are your answers, so fine, but how big (and therefore expensive) do you expect the PHB to be? And as for the padding, I presume you mean the new races/classes. YOU may not care for them, as is your privilege, but you don't think there's a substantial number of people out there who might be enticed to a new edition by new classes and races? Just to try them out, at least? All that number has to be is more than the number of people who won't buy the new PHB--ever--because it doesn't have their pet race or class in it. Have YOU bought the 4e PH?
Well 300 pages, though cost could be cut down with fewer images.
I am sure some want new races and classes to replace what was core, I am not one of them. There again I was outraged that Kobolds became Dragonkin. I suspect marketing determined that there were enough that want new shinny toys that they could clearly lose some of the existing customer based. This concept clearly has been expressed concerning the FR update/changes.
No I have not purchased yet, waiting for the market price to drop.
Well 300 pages, though cost could be cut down with fewer images.
Er...I don't understand. The current PHB is 317 pages. The 3.5 PHB was...317 pages. The 2.5 PHB was 319 pages (remarkably consistent, these folks...) (all numbers are to the last page of the Index). Do you want a bigger PHB, or not?
I am sure some want new races and classes to replace what was core, I am not one of them. There again I was outraged that Kobolds became Dragonkin. I suspect marketing determined that there were enough that want new shinny toys that they could clearly lose some of the existing customer based. This concept clearly has been expressed concerning the FR update/changes.
I'm not sure that people want new stuff to replace the old, but I would presume that many people, such as those that said "This new-fangled 3rd edition sucks. I'll stick with 2nd," might be interested in seeing what these new classes can do. It's a new edition; if it only had the old stuff in it, it might look boring, especially to people that have been away for a while.
Not that I don't empathize; I really don't give a hoot about the new stuff either. But I'm willing to wait for the PHBII to come out to get the trusty old stuff. Thing is, I almost certainly wouldn't buy it if it only had new stuff in it. I never bought the 3.5 PHBII, and I bet there's a lot of people like me (and you).
No I have not purchased yet, waiting for the market price to drop.
Buying used, then, I presume?
Of course, the 4e is designed to be more consise, with keywords and exception based rules, but there is less stuff to read, even at the same page count.
What is a PHC?
I daresay he means "PHB," though technically, that isn't correct either. Handbook is one word, hence the correct abbreviation should be "PH."
I daresay he means "PHB," though technically, that isn't correct either. Handbook is one word, hence the correct abbreviation should be "PH."
Sorry, always been PHB. Please note the brown splat books from past editions as well the blue ones.
DMGR for blue.
PHBR for brown.
R = Reference
Also PH would kind of need the litmus test, and PG for Player's Guide has implications of things not fit for children such as the MPAA.
So like Abeir being stuck onto Toril to make it alphabetically first, the B is stuck onto PHB to make it just sound better.
I daresay he means "PHB," though technically, that isn't correct either. Handbook is one word, hence the correct abbreviation should be "PH."
It's referenced in 1st edition in both the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide as "PHB", so while it may not be conform to the standards of abbreviation, it is traditionally and historically correct, and that trumps standards every time. ;)
Aloha all, here I'm just here making a note of a personal feeling that WotC DnD dev and marketing teams dropped the ball by not having any of the really handy/important DNDI tools ready for release at GENCON.
Wait, are you saying that you went to GenCon and nothing was on display? I was of an understanding that they had kiosks with the character visualizer and the character generator up and running. If this is true, then not only are they guilty of poor marketing decisions, but they are also liars! A video interview on the Wizards site, recorded at GenCon, features Randy Beuhler talking about the tool displays!
If they have them at GenCon, but not online, well, I can't really say that was unexpected. From what I've witnessed thus far, it may be next GenCon before we see the complete package, and frankly, I suspect that it isn't going to be all that it has been touted to be. There's a lot of software to compete with out there that does the same thing and for cheaper, and the only thing DDI has going for it right now is the promise that there will be customizable virtual minis and official materials.
Right now, I'm turning my sights towards the EpicTable, which seems more likely to be a reality at this point than DDI.
My faith in Wizards was shaken with Master Tools (how quickly they expect us to forget), but with the fact that 4E has been out for three months and now GenCon has come and gone and we haven't seen more than scant screenshots and videos of a suite of tools that was supposed to revolutionize the gaming experience? My faith is gone.
When I first heard of DDI, even before I knew all the details, I began planning to set aside the money. Now, if Wizards wants me to buy into it, they're going to have to blow me completely away.
I know that one of the lead developers was murdered, and that's terrible. I'm sorry for his family, friends, and co-workers. But what major computer project has only one developer?
If I told people that something was going to be released on a certain date and ads were placed in a product we debuted, and it was delayed by three months, my boss would have my behind in a sling!
I know that one of the lead developers was murdered, and that's terrible. I'm sorry for his family, friends, and co-workers. But what major computer project has only one developer?
Woahwoahwoah, wait...what?
Woahwoahwoah, wait...what?
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1070230
Why not put a nice fancy skin on the old dice roller too while your at it and put that up as a tool, or maybe a character random name generator while your at it (again I'm be facetious).
They already released a die roller and name generator in the 3.0 launch as a
companion CD to both dungeon and dragon magazines (we havent forgotten)
:D
They already released a die roller and name generator in the 3.0 launch as a
companion CD to both dungeon and dragon magazines (we havent forgotten)
:D
I actually use the fre version of the AD&D cide roller software when not on a computer with it installed. I keep a copy on a floppy disk for the oft change someone doesn't have it. Probably jsut because I like the sounds and you can quick click any single die to reroll it inline and they are sorted highest to lowest when they are displayed.
That thing should still be around somewhere for people to download, and looks much better than the run of the mill JavaScript ones that someone could mock up in about 20 minutes.
It is another program, but one that already exists, and shouldn't detract time from those other tools for DDI.
Here's a question that I think many people have been wondering - how will modules be handled for playing on the table? If I want to play through Tomb of Horrors or Caves of Chaos (yeah, I'm "old"), what will it cost to purchase the module for play on the table, and will that purchase price include the necessary and correct number of v-mini's ? Also, will there be a mechanism for DM's who build custom content to offer it to other DM's players, and/or will there be a player rating/ranking system? What about "maturity" controls? I realize Wizard's can't control what happens in online play, but will there be a mechanism for parents to be able to approve/deny access to games/campaigns/players based on some set criteria? I'd like to be able to let my daughter play, but not with some_random_guy_01.
The DM can lock seats so your daughter safe, if you trust the other players.
As for sale of any adventurer/quest there was some discussion about any such future sale would include the 3Ds needed to complete it. Please note this was a plan and perhaps glance at my sig.
Price for some future offer has not been released and IAE I would expect such to be case by case. Some costing more then others.
Here's a question that I think many people have been wondering - how will modules be handled for playing on the table?
WotC_DM seemed happy/eager about plans to (eventually?) release modules for use on the Game Table. Be they digital versions of reatil mods, RPGA mods, or Dungeon Magazine mods.
If I want to play through Tomb of Horrors or Caves of Chaos (yeah, I'm "old"), what will it cost to purchase the module for play on the table, and will that purchase price include the necessary and correct number of v-mini's ?
Undetermined (publicly at least) at this time.
Also, will there be a mechanism for DM's who build custom content to offer it to other DM's players, and/or will there be a player rating/ranking system?
There was originally a plan to give each D&Di account a "Vault" to store stuff in. Characters, maps, adventures, etc.
With the scrapping of Gleemax, as well as the push to get the basic tools that everyone is most anticipating out those of us DOING the anticipating WotC_DM recently stated that the vault is on the backburner. However, it sounds like characters and the like will be able to be saved locally, and from what I saw at DDXP it looks like adventures can be saved/loaded locally as well.
That said, sharing should be as easy as finding a file hosting service, or using simple e-mail for now, with the Vault hopefully returning sometime after the release of the full D&Di subscription package.
What about "maturity" controls? I realize Wizard's can't control what happens in online play, but will there be a mechanism for parents to be able to approve/deny access to games/campaigns/players based on some set criteria? I'd like to be able to let my daughter play, but not with some_random_guy_01.
You can either reserve as many Game Table seats as you like. Seats that are left "open" can also be set with a role filter, so if your group needs a Controller, you can filter down to looking just for that role.
As the players meet in a lobby area, and can't enter the table proper without the DM's permission you'll have a chance to evaluate players before letting them play (and can therefore explain about having your daughter play before trouble begins).
its a fairly common business tactic, get people int he door cheap, then make the cash off the little extras.
here is a wacky and crazy idea, why not charge a small nominal fee, like 4.95 for everythign, then try to make the money by selling premade adventures for the game table, more v-mini's and such?
its a fairly common business tactic, get people int he door cheap, then make the cash off the little extras.
Heh. You think people are whining now?
Yeah true, but really 5 dollars a month for everything would give people what they want cheap, then if you wanted to use the extras its there, but you dont have to.
The biggest flaw I can see with this model is that there's nothing to prevent people from simply re-creating those modules themselves and forgoing the additional digital costs.
In other "get 'em in the door cheap" business models (like game consoles) you know you're going to get continued revenue from people buying the games to go on that platform. Yes, there are those that will mod chip and use "copies" but that portion of the market is VERY small.
With D&Di - the tools to re-create the modules they'll be trying to sell are part and parcel of the overall package. Some people would buy-in, to save time, but others will just spend a day or two making a re-creation of Keep on the Shadowfell for their players themselves.
While that may happen anyway, it doesn't make for a sound business model in this instance - especially once you factor in all the people who'd prefer to make their own custom adventnures and campaigns to begin with.
Your article satated that the Compendium was active. NOT! Where and when is "active" defined with -0- values and content all across the board. I'm very disappointed in this new version so far.
The compendium has been active for at least a month now, and I just tested it myself and didn't get any bad results (my serach was for the simple "Eldritch Blast").
What did you search on? When? What browser are you using?
Needless to say, I won't be joining the D&D 4.0 crowd. And I will be written off as just another old fart who probably didn't want to give up the old blue book, or hated AD&D when it came on the scene. Well, that'd be wrong. D&D generally got better over the year (except for that "Comeliness" ability fiasco, and the great wuss-out when the words "demon" and "devil" were censored). But c'mon guys -- Alignment is sacrosanct! I know it's too late now--the ship has sailed. But how 'bout someone with some business acumen take this idea: sell the maps from those 4th edition adventures separately to us old farts. At least they are compatible with the 1st edition DDM game. You guys could make some green and we could get some new terrain.
And do you think you might put the spell (I mean "ritual") Spirit Wrack back in the game? :P
Have you actually played 4e? Don't knock it 'til you've played it. There are bunches of people (myself included) who didn't like the look of the rules until they actually used them in a game. Forget the online content if you don't like it or aren't willing to pay for it. Give the actual game a try.
my friends and i are in the middle of a long 3.5 campaign and none of us who have looked over the new edition have liked what we've seen. it's very different, so it takes a lot of ramping up to understand what's going on, and it's all pretty much incompatible with anything that came before ... we've got a lot of books for 3.x, enough to keep us happy for a long time to come. maybe, long enough for 4.0 to die a miserable death and for 3.5 to come back.
and, of course, i still hate the loss of my magazine subscription. on-line publication is just a stupid buzzword that got stuck in some corporate maw ... i wish they'd choke and go back to a real magazine.
my friends and i are in the middle of a long 3.5 campaign and none of us who have looked over the new edition have liked what we've seen. it's very different, so it takes a lot of ramping up to understand what's going on, and it's all pretty much incompatible with anything that came before ... we've got a lot of books for 3.x, enough to keep us happy for a long time to come. maybe, long enough for 4.0 to die a miserable death and for 3.5 to come back.
Play what makes you happy. However, don't judge 4E until you've played it and really had a chance to understand how all the individual pieces and parts work together as a single, cohesive whole.
There are many parts of 4E that look "broken" when viewed through 3.5 "goggles".
I'd suggest tossing together some characters (or downloading some of the pre-gens available on various sites) and running the adventure in the back of the DMG just to get a good feel for the way combats work.
and, of course, i still hate the loss of my magazine subscription. on-line publication is just a stupid buzzword that got stuck in some corporate maw ... i wish they'd choke and go back to a real magazine.
It's not just a buzzword. Print publication of magazines is slowly dying for many companies. The reality is that online publication allows for faster release of articles (IE, no need for a three month lead-time), and is absent many of the costs assosciated with paper publishing.
You're more than welcome not to like it, of course. It's not for everyone. Just know that it isn't being done for "no reason" other than corporate buzz.
The reality is that online publication allows for faster release of articles (IE, no need for a three month lead-time), and is absent many of the costs assosciated with paper publishing.
while i like e-products, i like my magazines as hardcopy as well. will there be any way to acquire dungeon and dragon in print, maybe as a yearly one-time-purchase book?
also, while e-publishing makes for faster publishing times, from experience i can say: articles are often close to deadlines. with digital media, if it is one day late, it will just be skipped editing to bring it onto the webpage. also, often the writers won't be edited at all, with all that flashy new stuff around, noone's gonna notice if there are a few errors here and there, right?
<- this is what i believe the downside to be - faster publishing, less editing, less quality control. most magazines going to e-mag offer more stuff of lesser quality.
I think that Amazon (or perhaps Chapters) is offering for pre-order a Best of Dragon (or perhaps Dungeon). Check through the Announcements for it. It was posted in one of the last two weeks of August by AsmodeusLore I believe.
i won't search for it. if they do such a product, they'll likely say so anyway on the webpage. but good to hear about somone who has already found something.
while i like e-products, i like my magazines as hardcopy as well. will there be any way to acquire dungeon and dragon in print, maybe as a yearly one-time-purchase book?
There are reports and rumors of some online stores listing a 2009 compilation of either Dragon or Dungeon (I forget which, maybe even both - others may be further informed on the subject). Nothing that's been confirmed by WotC yet that I know of, however.
also, while e-publishing makes for faster publishing times, from experience i can say: articles are often close to deadlines. with digital media, if it is one day late, it will just be skipped editing to bring it onto the webpage. also, often the writers won't be edited at all, with all that flashy new stuff around, noone's gonna notice if there are a few errors here and there, right?
<- this is what i believe the downside to be - faster publishing, less editing, less quality control. most magazines going to e-mag offer more stuff of lesser quality.
Unfortunately this may be true. Here's hoping that enough eagle-eyed people here in the forums (and submitting feedback to [email]dndinsider@wizards.com[/email]) will convince WotC to pad a little more time on their articles (say, final version due 1 week before publish date) so that editing can do a really good once-over, and help meet website publishing times.
I think that Amazon (or perhaps Chapters) is offering for pre-order a Best of Dragon (or perhaps Dungeon). Check through the Announcements for it. It was posted in one of the last two weeks of August by AsmodeusLore I believe.
Yes an amazon link was posted, however search of WotC product release schedule did not list it. It was best of so perhaps a third party has some rights to print things? It strikes me as unlikely, but in the realm of anything can happen clearly possible.
Please keep your posts respectful of other members, even if they disagree with you.
I have just one question. When will D&DI launch the game table? btw if anyone answered this question somewhere in this thread i didnt read it or i missed it so just redirect me, tyvm.
The answer is.
It will be released when it is ready.
Current projections appear to indicate sometime in 2009.
That is the only answer available at this time.