This is ridiculous, people who buy the books should have access to this online content FOR FREE.
The Player's handbook should have a code that upgrades your FREE dndi account to player access on the online game table, and the dmg should upgrade you to DM access. That's how it should be, and each book should come with a code to expand your content- not this monthly subscription BS.
If you're going to charge at least make it reasonable for pete's sake, 15 a month is RIDICULOUS even for an MMORPG and this is just a website! I preordered my 4th edition books because I was promised online play, and now I have to pay more to have it? I'm outraged- this is not a way to keep your loyal customers tbh, and definitely not going to persuade more people to purchase your books and software when they can much more easily pirate them.
I preordered my 4th edition books because I was promised online play, and now I have to pay more to have it?
You seem to imply that someone promised you free online play. Whomever told you that was incorrect. WotC has never promised free online play. I've been keeping up with the 4e news since GenCon last year when it was all announced and the online game table was always described as part of DDi and it was said that DDi was going to be for a fee (but it took awhile for them to decide on that fee amount). Personally, i don't think you should be blaming WotC for your own lack of homework on finding out the facts before you ordered your books.
Relax... besides, it's not like there aren't other online tools out there to let you play. I hear people talking about them on these forums all the time. Personally, i prefer to play face to face whenever possible.
I will agree with you on one thing though. I think the monthly price is about $5 too high. I think it should be $10 per mo./ $6 per mo. if paid yearly. Either that or a la carte. Personally, i want the online-zines, but as a Mac user, i can't use any of the fancy new tools.
Its a free onine gaming table. Grid map, dice roller, etc. And its free. Pair it with a voicechat program (I used Teamspeak) and you are living la vida broka.
sadly,
-G
Ultimately, are they just telling us its worth $15 is it worth it?
As far as wanting access for free... I don't get that. You pay for a book, and a book is what you get. If you want the add-ons and digital tools and so forth, then you pay for those. It's like buying a car -- they don't give you the gas for free.
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...
I find these thoughts laughable. First, it assumes that $15/ month is trivial which for many people it is NOT. I play with several people who balk at the idea of spending $30 on books let alone $15/ month.
Second it assumes that just because you can blow $15 on lunch that you should be joyful for handing it over. Some of us (ME) like to get value for their money. I don't see the value here. For $15/month I can buy exactly the content I want, not whatever random content WotC decides to stuff into the mags. Or I can buy a Pizza for my game group every month which is much more likely to get used than the 3d character "visualizer" which will probably get used for 15 minutes then forgotten.
Finally, if your maths are broken that's $180/ year which IS a significant amount of money. Some of us enjoy saving a bit here and there and dropping an extra $15/ mo on whatever tickles our fancy burns through a lot of cash in a hurry.
First, it assumes that $15/ month is trivial which for many people it is NOT. I play with several people who balk at the idea of spending $30 on books let alone $15/ month.
Second it assumes that just because you can blow $15 on lunch that you should be joyful for handing it over. Some of us (ME) like to get value for their money. I don't see the value here.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.
THere are 3 paying options 10 a month /year 13 / 3 months 15/ 1 month. And if your going 10 a month you'll paying less than what MOST mmorpgs monthly fees are.
You're also getting less than what ALL mmorpgs are, so of course you should be paying less
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
And people wonder why our society is living paycheck to paycheck. No, $15 isn't a "lot of money" to me, but I also don't drop cash on something just because it's a 'trivial' amount.
The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.
Here's the thing, I don't need to see the tools to know I won't use them. I don't need a digital table top, I game with my friends. I couldn't care less about a 3d representation of my character that looks like a refuge from WoW and for far less than $180 I can pay an artist over the internet to make me a much nicer looking drawing of my character.
I've never subscribed to either Dungeon or Dragon magazine and while I might enjoy an occasional article from them I can get much of that same sort of gratification from other (free) sources on the internet. Incidentally most physical magazine subscriptions are $15-30/ YEAR, and any physical copies of these mags will be additional expenses so I can't even read them on the can if I was interested.
The tools I am interested in are replacing tools which I currently have access to for free which is what is really frustrating.
The character generator and online rules access I currently use PCGen and d20SRD. I am quite happy with both of these tools and wouldn't change them even if the cost difference were free. Unfortunately Wizards closed their ruleset so the only way d20SRD will be replaced is by paying $15/ month which sucks (But that's another topic).
From what I've heard PCGen is on-course to support 4e by the end of the year. Heck, unless the yet-to-be-seen GSL license prohibits it PCGen may very well beat the DDi tools to market.
So WTF am I really getting for $15/ month?? Online rules, maybe a character generator, and some occasional random content from Dungeon or Dragon that might prove interesting.
No thanks, I can think of a lot better things to do with the money.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
Its depend on your revenue...if you have kids and if you think that 15$ a month for a service of that kind is too much...you are right. I think that 15$ a month is too much compared to a MMORPG. Because in a MMO, you can play with 15$ a month. But with DnD Online table, you need players and a DM...so you pay for...server occupation and a software...why just dont sell the software and ask people to create their own local server...ok Im studying in Multimedia...so its sounds simple to me..but it is..for real.
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money?
People with a small disposable income? Already D&D has cut into my comic habit quite a bit (and I was only spending $60 on comics a month).
I can barely buy lunch for that.
Clearly you have more expensive tastes then I. I can go out for dinner and get it for less then $10.
In this case, that question translates to: can I get a better roleplaying product that fills the same (or a very similar) niche for $15 per month that is better than insider?
The answer is: of course!!!
**For the MMO crowd, WoW is a much better value.
**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to play online...there's that free online roleplaying game.
**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to read pdf's there's a ton on drivethrurpg.com for way cheaper (and those are already available, not the junk we've been getting from WoTC).
**For the strictly D&D crowd who wants to read real life, actual paper, books, you could buy a book every other month for that cost...and better than that if you go amazon or get it used.... I mean $180 per year? Seriously, go on amazon right now and look for new or used books...see what you can buy... (Yes I'm aware that RIGHT NOW there aren't 4e books apart from WotC, but that will very quickly change...and also RIGHT NOW insider is remaining free.) Even new, most books are $30...so that is half of a full book per month.
I can certainly find books that cost $15 each (including shipping) that are worth reading, having, playing, overall enjoying...
So, again, the question becomes one of value...for me, there is no way I'd rather spend $15 to get:
1. Something I can get for free elsewhere.
2. Web based (non pdf...as they haven't compiled anything but the first
mag) low amount of content adventures and articles.
I'd rather get an additional book every single month with that money.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
It's not a lot of money on its own.. but it is a lot of money for what you're getting. It's the relative value of things. For me, $15 a month COULD go to DDI, or it COULD go to one of my girls for a toy they want, or a CD, a few in print magazines per month.
The larger issue, as you point out, is whether or not you're getting value for the money. But again, there's not much point in debating that either, since none of us has used DDI yet. Let's both subscribe for a month when it becomes available and then we can decide if the $15 was worth it.
And that's mindbogglingly stupid. You're seriously demanding that people pay money first to see if it was worth paying money for in the first place?
15 bucks is ridiculous !! :hoppingma
There´s only one MMORPG that´s 15$ a month and thats AoC
ALL others charge 10 to 0.
And people this is NO game !!
It´s a tool, a bunch of info and maybe somehow useful.
BUT NOT WORTH FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH (DEFINITELY NOT 15
) 
Even if WotC would create the PERFECT toolset (which i strongly doubt) it´s not worth a monthly fee.
I´d spend some money for a real good tool once.
Applause WotC you once more showed you only care about $$$ 
The only other thing left to say (and thats a pure personal impression) 3.5 worked, and 4.0 is for sissies
So bye bye and NOT BUY BUY
So if we assume that insider (which doesn't yet exist) is about as useful (perhaps a bit "shinier") as the free programs out there, then we're just paying WotC for magazines.
If this is the case, lets look at what we can get at amazon for subscription price. (Now I want to compare apples to apples, but I can't since WotC is putting out crappy pdfs and not print...but I can at least do subscription price to subscription price...so WotC subscription price is $120 per year for the two mags, or $60 per year for each of the pdf mags or $5 per mag).
Looking at the most popular print magazines for one year we get:
Show
Smithsonian - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
Newsweek - 53 issues / 12 months $20.00 ($0.38/issue)
Wired - 12 issues / 12 months $10.00 ($0.83/issue)
Popular Science - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
O, The Oprah Magazine (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months$18.00 ($1.50/issue)
The New Yorker - 47 issues / 12 months $39.95 ($0.85/issue)
Playboy - 12 issues / 12 months $15.96 ($1.33/issue)
Us Weekly - 52 issues / 12 months $51.48 ($0.99/issue)
Maxim - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
Sports Illustrated Kids (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months $19.95 ($1.66/issue)
Vanity Fair - 12 issues / 12 months $15.00 ($1.25/issue)
Newsweek - 53 issues / 12 months $20.00 ($0.38/issue)
Wired - 12 issues / 12 months $10.00 ($0.83/issue)
Popular Science - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
O, The Oprah Magazine (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months$18.00 ($1.50/issue)
The New Yorker - 47 issues / 12 months $39.95 ($0.85/issue)
Playboy - 12 issues / 12 months $15.96 ($1.33/issue)
Us Weekly - 52 issues / 12 months $51.48 ($0.99/issue)
Maxim - 12 issues / 12 months $12.00 ($1.00/issue)
Sports Illustrated Kids (1-year) - 12 issues / 12 months $19.95 ($1.66/issue)
Vanity Fair - 12 issues / 12 months $15.00 ($1.25/issue)
And that's mindbogglingly stupid. You're seriously demanding that people pay money first to see if it was worth paying money for in the first place?
Whoa -- mindbogglingly? Demanding? Let's reign ourselves in a bit here. I demanded that no one do anything. I suggested that people try the product before they slam it. Would you go on a message board talking about how terrible a restaurant is that you've never eaten at? How awful a book is that you've never read? How ghastly a movie was that you didn't watch?
Buy it or don't buy it, but please hold off on the rhetoric if you think it's wrong for someone to suggest being open-minded.
1. of poor quality
2. promised and then never supplied
3. supplied months late
4. promised in larger volumes than were supplied.
"Here's that hamburger sample I promised you two months ago. Yeah, it's raw, and it's moldy, but come on inside and pay for the real thing. IT'S GONNA BE GREAT!!!!"
Seriously. We've been previewing this thing since October.
Isn't 9 months enough of a preview to begin to make judgement calls?
And preview or no, I believe my prior post points out that the price is extreme even if the magazines were good enough to be the tops in the country. (but they're no where near that).
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that. Not only that, but it's less than subscribing to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazines used to be, except that you get both magazine, plus rulebook add-ons, plus digital tools, online gaming table, etc etc...
One year subscriptions to the magazines were $3.25 each per month. That's $6.50 per month for both. WAY less than $15 per month. Not even close.
Also, I only pay $6-$10 for lunch. Paying $15 for lunch would be enough to convince me to bring a bag lunch to work. I'm glad I don't live where you do.
Would you go on a message board talking about how terrible a restaurant is that you've never eaten at? How awful a book is that you've never read?
Let's say they have someone up front giving free appetizers, and you don't like them. THEN the restaraunt, serving gourmet hamburgers, has listed menu prices of $30 a plate. I would complain then.
How ghastly a movie was that you didn't watch?
Again, let's say the trailers were awful, and that the local Cinemark has to charge $40 a ticket to pay for the high cost of the movie. Yep, I would complain and still not see it.
Buy it or don't buy it, but please hold off on the rhetoric if you think it's wrong for someone to suggest being open-minded.
I did approach this with an open mind. You, however, have not. You're blindly willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, and your cash, despite anything and everything you've heard, and are unwilling to accept that someone may have a legitimate complaint.
There´s only one MMORPG that´s 15$ a month and thats AoC
ALL others charge 10 to 0.
Vanguard, DDO, Lotro, WoW, and EQ2 are all $14.99 a month if you pay monthly. Eve is $14.95.
You just have the option to pay extra for a la carte items that you want to upgrade your play experience.
This sounds a lot like insider, where you have to pay extra for the virtual minis you want... and not at all like most of the other mmorpgs where you get the whole experience for one cost.
Well, it's like insider in that you pay for the extras, but it's not like it in that it is free instead of $15 per month.
Seriously, though, am I getting as much game for DDI as I am with WoW? From what we've seen of DDI thus far (and it's been nearly a year now), the answer is an unequivocal 'no'.
I guess it depends on how much you end up using DDI. If you use it to game remotely with people three nights a week, for example, then I think you're getting some good game time out of it. If you rarely use it, the no.
As a value proposition, I just don't see it. My understanding is that the product consists of:
1) an electronic version of dragon magazine ($3.50 in print- should be cheaper without distribution and production costs)
2) an electronic version of dungeon magazine (see above)
3) A character visualizer (how much would you pay for this stand-alone? $20?)
4) A character sheet utility (Hero-Lab is a one-time cost of $29)
5) an virtual table (I use battlegrounds, one time cost to players of $15)
One-time costs are immensely preferable to recurring ones. The competition to D&D insider software is cheap- about $64 dollars outlined above. If you remove the value of the magazines ($7 a month)- after 8 months of subscription, you could own a competitive series of products.
It's true that a game like world of warcraft has a similar subscription cost, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that writing/maintaining/serving D&D insider requires anything approaching the amount of resources a game like world of warcraft does. It's like comparing the costs of a bicycle to a motorcycle.
At the price D&D Insider is charging, that software will need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the current in-market alternatives. After 8 months, I could have purchased competitive software and the old magazines off the rack with the same financial outlay. Every month after that, I am effectively handing over $8 for software development (and again- the competitors are priced in the $20 range).
Which brings me to the question- why do we pay $15 a month for the months in which D&D insider DOESN'T include this software? At that point, aren't we just paying $15 for electronic versions of magazines we used to buy at the newsstand for $7?
To be fair- we haven't seen what D&D insider will bring. It's possible that this will be the most amazing battlemat ever, and that it will blow all competitors out of the water. I've seen powerpoint presentations at conventions that make the assertion that you are getting a LOT for your $15, but I haven't come to the same conclusion yet. I hope they do it! If D&D insider is actually that much better than what is currently in-market, then life will be extremely good for virtual tabletop users (who are already pretty happy).
I believe WOTC are good people that are going to really work to try to make D&D insider worth it. I just want to be clear about how much work I expect that to take.
Let's say they have someone up front giving free appetizers, and you don't like them. THEN the restaraunt, serving gourmet hamburgers, has listed menu prices of $30 a plate. I would complain then.
Again, let's say the trailers were awful, and that the local Cinemark has to charge $40 a ticket to pay for the high cost of the movie. Yep, I would complain and still not see it.
We're just arguing about mind set now, and maybe there's no point to that, but I still disagree with you.
You're saying that you'd complain about the restaurant because you didn't like the free sample, and you'd complain about the movie because you didn't like the free trailer? Why? Isn't your mind already made up?
After you've already decided you don't like the product anyway, you still think it's important to complain about the price? If you aren't buying it anyway, what does it matter if it's $15 or $15,000? If it was free, would you take it because it's free, even though you've already decided you don't like it?
I did approach this with an open mind. You, however, have not. You're blindly willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, and your cash, despite anything and everything you've heard, and are unwilling to accept that someone may have a legitimate complaint.
I'm not sure you understand what being open-minded is. If you're willing to give benefit of the doubt, you're open-minded. If you've made up your mind without seeing the finished product, you're not open-minded.
And I think I'm open-minded enough to listen to legitimate complaints. I haven't seen any so far in this thread. I have some of my own. I don't think the quality of Dungeon and Dragon magazines is yet equal to what Paizo was publishing. I think the 3D character thing is unneccesary. I'd like to see some real improvements and I'd like to see some impressive content for me to decide $15 a month is worth it. But, I'm open-minded enough to give it a chance before I dismiss it.
THere are 3 paying options 10 a month /year 13 / 3 months 15/ 1 month. And if your going 10 a month you'll paying less than what MOST mmorpgs monthly fees are.
This entire MMORPG statement assumes that EVERYONE who play D&D plays some kind of MMO, and, guess what? Thats not true
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
Nice to know you are rolling in cash. I know ALOT of people over 16 (most in their 30s), who consider it a significant amount of money to waste on something they won;t be using every day, ore even every other day. Especially when you figure mortgages, car payments, bills, food, and other expenses into life.
And for the MMO comparisons, there's a difference. Most people who play MMO's do so at least every other day, if not daily. Honestly, are any of you going to use DDI daily? Maybe 1 or 2 times a week, but not like you do an MMO
If they can't really stop piracy, then limiting themselves to online subscriptions for a fee would limit their loses. WOTC wouldn't have to go through the expense of publishing and distributing as many hard-cover books. If we're going to steal the content anyway, making much of it digital means they lose less money.
Don't sweat it, just sign up once every three months, download all you can, and let your subscription run out. Or get your players to alternate subscriptions on a rotating schedule.
The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.
And why is it justifiable that the DDI costs as much as an MMO?
And why is it justifiable that the DDI costs as much as an MMO?
People just tend to make that assumption. I'm not sure it's really relevant. Look at it in terms of any other form of entertainment.
If you play one game a week with DDI, say for four hours, you're getting entertainment at about 94 cents per hour.
Movie? Anywhere from $4 to $20 per hour depending on what you buy in addition to the ticket and how long the movie is, etc.
Cable TV? Depending on how much you watch you may get more than DDI for your entertainment dollar, you may get less.
But you're under a buck an hour in DDI in all likelihood if you play at least once a week. That's not bad. And in addition you're getting other content, etc. If you don't play with it that often, then maybe it isn't for you.
Piracy of gaming materials is easy; I have friends who could get me PDF's of more than half the D&D books in 3rd edition (More if they really tried)
The whole 4th ed core has been available for a couple of weeks at the least. That doesn't change the fact that the content included in DDi isn't worth 15 a month. I'm not claiming that 15 or even 10 a month is that much money, but I am saying that there's no justifiable reason for the cost. As everyone in this thread loves to compare MMO's, There is no way the tools they've discussed justify the monthly cost. They are all small scale relatively easy projects with a marginal upfront development cost and almost no maintenance associated with them for their lifetime. A MMORPG has a huge manpower outlay for years of development, and massive support staff for both software and hardware, huge server farms and bandwidth costs, as well as a much higher usage uptime by endusers (and hey WoW works on mac's too :P). For what we are getting the character creator should probably be 9-10 bucks one time, access to the online books/rules should be unlockable with a purchase of the core books or a a reduced fee (perhaps 20-25) the GameTable should likely run 20-30 bucks.
Looking at the offer they are making I can't help but feel like they saw what MMO's where doing and wanted in on it, without realizing the differences in content offering, it's a slap in the face to charge monthly for a flat app of this size and complexity.
You're saying that you'd complain about the restaurant because you didn't like the free sample, and you'd complain about the movie because you didn't like the free trailer? Why? Isn't your mind already made up?
Yes it is, which is why I'm complaining and warning others that it's not worth the price of admission. Is this something you're not getting here? Or are we only allowed to speak when we like something?
I'm not sure you understand what being open-minded is. If you're willing to give benefit of the doubt, you're open-minded. If you've made up your mind without seeing the finished product, you're not open-minded.
Do you not understand how barter works? They have to sell me the item and convince me to part with my money. If they fail in the first part, either because what I see of the product is bad, or the price is too high, or both, then they don't get my money.
How is this lost on you?
I don't have to be open-minded. I'm a customer. It's my money. They have to convince me to part with it. That's their job. It's outright stupid for me to give them money in the first place and see if it was worth the price I shelled out.
Do you not understand how barter works? They have to sell me the item and convince me to part with my money. If they fail in the first part, either because what I see of the product is bad, or the price is too high, or both, then they don't get my money.
How is this lost on you?
I don't have to be open-minded. I'm a customer. It's my money. They have to convince me to part with it. That's their job. It's outright stupid for me to give them money in the first place and see if it was worth the price I shelled out.
Actually, I've completely lost the train of what your argument is. I've certainly never claimed that you aren't a customer or that your money isn't your money. This thread was about the cost of the product, but now you're talking about the quality of the product. You also started off claiming to be open minded, and now you're saying that you aren't.
My argument is this: DDI, priced at $15/month, may or may not be worth that cost. The price seems reasonable for what DDI is advertised to offer. If I can spend $15 for a month's access to determine if it's worth signing up for a full year, then yah it's worth it.
I can actually think of many, many examples of situations where you pay first and decide afterwards if it was worth it. We can return to the example of the movie. You see a trailer that makes the movie look terrible, and you decide not to go see it. You then log onto the studio's web site and start railing about the cost of tickets, the quality of the movie, et cetera. Someone points out that you haven't actually seen the movie, and you proceed to tear a strip off them for suggesting that you should try it before you tell everyone how awful it is.
My suggestion is, if you've decided that DDI is not for you, then don't buy it. But please don't pretend that you're doing everyone a favour by "warning" us all about how terrible a product is that you have never used.
People just tend to make that assumption. I'm not sure it's really relevant. Look at it in terms of any other form of entertainment.
If you play one game a week with DDI, say for four hours, you're getting entertainment at about 94 cents per hour.
Movie? Anywhere from $4 to $20 per hour depending on what you buy in addition to the ticket and how long the movie is, etc.
Cable TV? Depending on how much you watch you may get more than DDI for your entertainment dollar, you may get less.
But you're under a buck an hour in DDI in all likelihood if you play at least once a week. That's not bad. And in addition you're getting other content, etc. If you don't play with it that often, then maybe it isn't for you.
Wow, and that justifies a cost how?
If that argument held any water whatsoever, you could argue that an IM service you're playing D&D over online should cost 20 bucks a month.
A MMORPG has a huge manpower outlay for years of development, and massive support staff for both software and hardware, huge server farms and bandwidth costs, as well as a much higher usage uptime by endusers (and hey WoW works on mac's too :P).
This is an example of a valid justification for such a subscription cost. See the difference?
Wow, and that justifies a cost how?
If that argument held any water whatsoever, you could argue that an IM service you're playing D&D over online should cost 20 bucks a month.
You obviously don't understand the argument, and based on what I've seen here you don't care to understand it.
If you can't figure out the difference in an IM application for yourself, then no one can help you.
You obviously don't understand the argument
Yay, look, unjustified, wholly unsupported flaming. I understand your argument completely. The entirety of your argument is cost relative to entertainment time gained. That argument has never held water as a justification for cost in the history of economics.
If you can't figure out the difference in an IM application for yourself, then no one can help you.
And no defense for your statements! Just another argumentum ad hominem.
Yeah, it is the same, *in the context of your argument,* because it can be measured in the amount of entertainment time I get out of it for the price, which was the *entirety* of the argument you presented.
an be measured in the amount of entertainment time I get out of it for the price, which was the *entirety* of the argument you presented.
No, it's not even close to the same in the context of the argument when you look at the differences in what is provided as well as the market alternatives. Think about for a minute or two.
1. Are the online tools worth $15/month?
Someone else already said it: I don't think we can know until they come out and we try them. I'm not sure there's any other way to know if they'll suit our needs though I plan on monitoring the forums for other people's opinions before signing up.
2. Who needs these tools anyway?
If the tools are workable then I need them if I want to play on a regular basis. I have a full time job, a kid that's young enough that she's more interested in eating the dice then rolling them, a wife that doesn't game, and friends that also don't have time for gaming. This offers a way for me to game.
3. Is $15 a lot of money (regardless of what it's for)?
Does this really have any bearing on anything? Either you can afford it and you're golden or you can't and this thread becomes irrelevant to you.
Thanks for reading! :D
2. Who needs these tools anyway?
If the tools are workable then I need them if I want to play on a regular basis. I have a full time job, a kid that's young enough that she's more interested in eating the dice then rolling them, a wife that doesn't game, and friends that also don't have time for gaming. This offers a way for me to game.
This is pretty much exactly the same fer me... if the tools enable me to find people to game with online, then i'll certainly give it a shot , i'll cancel my eq2 sub to play D&D regularly again....
Our group would probably use it (to include friends cross-country and beyond), but we wouldn't be willing to pay any more than $15 a month (for the whole group). $15 a month per player is obscene for something like this. $90 a month for the standard group size + a bunch of random expenditures for extra virtual miniatures? Give me a break, with prices like that, I don't know a single person that will give Wizards a cent. (I do know a couple that would go for the magazine subscriptions, assuming you can get those seperately).
I could see a flat fee for everyone (a disk included in the phb or $10, something of that sort) and then a monthly fee for the server which all the players play on. (perhaps each player having to pay a monthly fee of $2.50 or so for access to the server.)
Does anyone know all the pricing? I've heard horrible rumors of having to pay extra for miniatures, each player having to pay the subscription as well, etc...
Yeah, apparently you will have to pay extra for some digital miniatures. A monumentally bad idea, if you ask me. I also agree they should have group pricing. The main roadblock to me subscribing will probably be that none of my players subscribe. I might not mind the $15 for DDI as a DM and someone who would like to use the online gaming. Can't blame my players for not subscribing.
15$/month means you'd better be getting the same value or better compared to buying at least 5 magazines each month (about 3$/issue previously); you're not even getting them in physical copies, which severely limits the places you can read them, your ability to actually bring the things to the gaming table, and the speed you can reference articles at. That means that even if the quality of the articles is the same, the $$$ value is lower since it's less useful to you. Unless you're going to print stuff off (at a cost to yourself, unless you've got a very loose workplace policy). So far, half the "content" they've shown us has been previews (ads) for books they're trying to sell - the rest is barely enough to fill ONE magazine, let alone 5.
Not only that, they're seriously shooting themselves in the foot by getting rid of their presence on actual store shelves that would apeal to casual players. There's a reason that some magazines give away subscriptions as cheaply as possible: the ads inside more than pay for the cost of writing and printing, and having presence on store shelves is like a permanent billboard people will pay money to read. Now, instead, you have to actually seek out their website yourself and pay money to even browse through the articles, something you could do for free in the real world before.
I'd fully understand if they condensed the 2 print magazines into 1; but switching to online-only, and not making those articles (which are mostly ads anyways) available for free is bad for customers, bad for their (long-term) business, and bad for the hobby as a whole.
$15 a month is RIDICULOUS. This isn't an MMO, and any comparison is foolish, especially from a business standpoint. I think it's a misread of the audience, and depending on how much money they sink into DDI, possibly a huge mistake. For reference material and on-line play of D&D? $5/month. The cheapest you can go with their lously pricing scheme is $10, and then you're stuck with it for a year. I would also bet you'd cought it all up at the beginning of your subscription, as is the norm I believe.
I still think another approach is $2.50 for each mag, and $5 for the on-line portion of the service is acceptable for those who don't want/need the other pieces. Forcing all or nothing is just a money grab.
All that being said, if just the DM needs to pay, that's not such a big deal. I recall mention of this on the boards a short time ago, but can't site the post or it's creator. Thing is, then the DM needs to have everyone pitch in to be fair, or they're stuck with the bill. If that's a plan, why not just charge $2.50 a month for everyone, come out a bit ahead, and throw the players a bone?
The track record of 3e and that nifty character generator has been brought up, and rightly so. I would hope to get a beta when 4e rolls out that hangs around until it's generally stable and doing what was promised. Once that happens, start up with the pay service. From pics of people's books delivered early, they get a 10-day free trial. That would seem to imply it will launch live, though they could decide to beta it for a while and just use the 10-day later. In any case, 10 days? Are you freaking kidding me? Do you think anyone can get a good idea of what the community and experience will be like in 10 days? Stinks to high heaven of more money grubbing. This is NOT an MMO.
Perhaps I misread the demographic. Perhaps enough D&D gamers feel $15/month (or less depending on the length of commitment) is just fine. Perhaps there are people who game enough that this will be worth it. I would suspect those folks are already gaming face to face and don't really have a need for doing so on-line. I would also suspect people who want to get back in touch and resuscitate and old game wouldn't play so much. They might also already have some system in place to do so. An in-house system is quite attractive though, to be honest. It's just not worth $120 up-front or more spread out IMO.
As far as the on-line table-top, I hope it's worth it. I hope there are numerous games to choose from that are easy enough to enter. I hope I can choose an on-going campaign with strangers, or just hope on when I find I have a free night and play. As for the folks I game with, I don't know if they'd be attracted to it. I think of DDI as bonus gaming. Unfortunately I'm then saddled with the extra cost of e-zines I'd rather not pay for. (oops, going negative again) I hope that they continually update the models/art/tiles/objects for use with online adventures. I hope for a way to construct said adventures off-line (OFFLINE, not out of game), that can then be imported to DDI later. I hope for a good wide range of sounds. The offline creation/editing aside, none of that is too crucial to gameplay. It's just what I would expect because of the price to play. Also, since we're already staring at a screen (pulls you out of your imagination a bit), it's hard not to overlook poor eye candy and sounds. Around a table a bunch of black lines on some vinyl works just fine.
So I have high hopes for DDI. I didn't even go into additional content and what not. I'd expect to see plenty on other sites anyways... The problem is, no matter how high my hopes are, I'm not paying what they're asking outside of just a foray to check it out. If it meets all of my hopes, I'd -consider- it though... I could probably only sneak in 2 or 3 games a month, so perhaps I just fall outside of the target demographic.
3. Is $15 a lot of money (regardless of what it's for)?
Does this really have any bearing on anything? Either you can afford it and you're golden or you can't and this thread becomes irrelevant to you.
D
I think the purpose of this quote is to address that issue. I'd bet for most players, $15/mo isn't going to be worth it OR is just outside of their budget. I think that's unfortunate because on-line play would seem to offter a lot of growth for the game. That's good for the game, the players (who are the game, really), and the business (more sales).
*I'm pretty hung up on the on-line gameplay for the same reasons as you, minus the kid. I don't care for reading pdf's unless I HAVE to. I don't read Dragon much, Dungeon at all anyways, but I'd still grab a Dragon now and again if it were in print. That being said, I was enthralled with it back in the late 80's through the early 90's, then again when 3e came out.
Thank god for Kobold Quarterly.
I wonder how long till I have to pay 10 a month to read MaRo articles
There´s only one MMORPG that´s 15$ a month and thats AoC
ALL others charge 10 to 0.
World of Warcraft is 14.99 a month as well. Just to bring you up to speed.
But I have to mirror what several others have said. *Is the content worth $15.00 a month?* Lets look at a couple of things.
1. None of the services are out, and they have said they will not be charging until all the services are available. -- This means its hard to see if I would get $15.00 of use out of them
2. On the flip side, they *did* say at Gencon last year that the books would come with codes that would expand the content and allow access to more info online for purchasing the books, and give you basic tools. Then for a "small fee" you would get much more content. -- This appears to have gotten changed as things developed.
3 There is always another choice -- The wonderful thing about the world wide web, is there is always another choice. (as posted above)
VW~
You guys are ca$h hog$, (its all about the dollars,huh?). I understood there was going to be a nominal fee for on-line content, BUT $15.mo. is outrageous!
You would havebeen/would be much better served with a less charge per month, (say $6.99/mo.). Let's look at our current state of affairs.. currently most RPG'ers play one, or more on-line games somewhere between $10-$15/mo. for play, figure in the fact just to get the core handbooks,(PHB,MM,DMG), is about $100.00 (+/-, depending on specials, cupons, etc.), these books are said to be updated about once a year, then you expect EVERYONE to pay $15 for this? You guys are drinkin' somegood sauce, and Iwant some! I can't see how a kid,(8-15), can afford this monthly fee, ecspecially if they are playing an MMO as well. Heck, I can't see how some adults could pay for this either with the current reccession America is in, with increased costs in food,gas, and an unemployment rate at where it is.
Let's say you guys,(*****s of the Coast), get 100,000 @ $15.00/month.that's great! You guys are making a whopping 1.5million/month! Congrats!
Now, let's say you guys got wise, and lessened the fee to say something like $6.99/month, and you generate some buzz, and get 500,000 customers..that would equal $3,495,000 a month. You guys would make more money,(and have not to do anything more), and get favorable responses from most,(likely, for not feeling like they're getting raped for the monthly service charge).
But, hey! It's your company, do it the way you want, but you will lose more money, and customers keeping at YOUR status quo!
This on-line community SHOULD favor your consumers. BUT, if you continue to think that we,(community), are willing to pay $15/month, you guys are DREAMING! Many of us, felt dis-infranchised by the move to 4th edition,( although most have been impressed with the new system), my DnD group, (at least), felt we have WASTED soo much money on 3.0, let alone 3.5 books, that we are not willing to pay $100.00 each year,(just for the core-books mind you), let alone $15.00/month for this on-line junk.
I will be patient,(hehe), for a few months, if there is no change to your whoring ways expect a backlash that will bankrupt you guys by the end of the next year. I see now that you guys envision this as your new cash cow, rethink your strategy, or lose your loyal customer base. It's your bed..do you want it warm, or cold?
Ogremage
P.S.: I appoligize now for not having ieSpell atm, and any grammar errors!
I have to agree that $15 a month is too much. It is costing them a lot less to produce digital magazines and other digital products. So, they are just trying to make a buck. They are a business, afterall. However, I feel that with the current economy, the $15 a month is tough. That's gas money for a lot of people. I'd rather use that money towards another book or a deck of MTG cards.
I also agree that it is too much to be charging when the site is not yet delivering all that it has promised for the amount paid. The only thing you can do is write them a letter of protest and not subscribe.
$15.00/month (or $120/year) on the other hand, is too much. Fewer people will subscribe, the majority of roleplayers will be insulted, and few will be interested in learning a new game. Plus the fact that, apparently, the beta isn't even up and running (as far as I can tell, the site gives no information), makes the folks at Wizards look fairly incompetant, hurting their overall reputation. It's very possible that this whole thing could turn into a fiasco and a public relations nightmare that Wizards may take years to recover from.
And for those who think $15.00/month isn't much money, join my Chocolate Bar of the Month Club (RT). For a nominal fee of $15.00/month I'll ship you a randomly selected chocolate bar each month. "You never know what you're gonna get!"
#1. 15 dollars for quite a few thing other then just 1 thing
like the Dungeon and Dragon Mags, updates and mini patches, online tools, customizable game (no more grinding 1 quest for inf now it is different every time). so imo its not a bad price if it was higher then it would be a big FU from me.
You're saying that you'd complain about the restaurant because you didn't like the free sample, and you'd complain about the movie because you didn't like the free trailer? Why? Isn't your mind already made up?
After you've already decided you don't like the product anyway, you still think it's important to complain about the price?
QUOTE]
First of all let me start by saying, that I do plan giving DDI a try. If I don't like I'll stop paying, and if I do like like it I will drop WoW and there is no net change in my budget. However, if I have already made up my mind about a product or think it is extremely over priced, yes I will still complain. I happen to think that it is the consumer's reposibility to give constructive and polite complaints to management and companies. It is one of the methods used by business to be adjust their products and services to remain competitive.
I am a manager in a business, and believe it or not, I do value a complaint, especially one given in a polite manner. I even value complaints from those who have already decided not to use our services. And as a point of fact, I would be very closed minded if I dismissed the complaint due to that fact without considering its merits. After all those are sometimes the most informative and useful to me. WotC is no different. They have asked us to test out DDI in next few months (while it is free) and tell them what works and what does not. They want to know the complaints (even if it is about pricing). I believe they want to provide the best product possible, and need input for to that end.
Complaints do not always mean that a change will or can be made, but it still helps any business adjust its service and allows consumers to have a voice in the private industry.
Know why? The economy sucks right now and people don't have extra spending cash and are looking for good deals.
If you offer college students (a big market demographic that is into this kind of fantasy gaming)
A) A WoW account
*or*
B) DDI monthy
Well, you can guess which one they have more time for and which they think would be a better value.
WoTC will lower its price or die in market compeition. You can bet they will go red on this venture because the demand is just not there, they've overprice themselves out of the market.
People will vote with their wallets and WoTC will learn this the hard way if they keep this path going.
And $15 for lunch wtf?! I can easily get a solid meal for $7.50, most of my college friends are broke and drop as low as $3.50 or LESS. You need to cut back on the steak and lobsters or else move out of your parents basement. OP needs log off WoW more and spend some time outside.
charge two. fifty per article and it will do better
1) Demand lower prices.
2) Subscribe with the current price.
3) Not subscribe.
i go with #3, for those who will go for #1 i suggest you organize yourselves and maybe just maybe you could cause an economical impact by demanding the lower price and not subscribing until they do. good luck though.
I find the tools to be a pretty cool idea as I'm not very good at designing dungeons on paper and I'm not above spending some cash for the service.
But where do I sign up? As was said 15$ is peanuts (Or should be) for any working adult.
I must be blind, but I can't seem to find the SUBSCRIBE NOW!!!! button when I check the D&D Insider flash content.
I find the tools to be a pretty cool idea as I'm not very good at designing dungeons on paper and I'm not above spending some cash for the service.
But where do I sign up? As was said 15$ is peanuts (Or should be) for any working adult.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome upper right hand corner. Enter email that your user name is registered with and forum password.
That is all it takes right now.
Currently being an Insider is free you do not have to start paying the 15.00 per month.
I must be blind, but I can't seem to find the SUBSCRIBE NOW!!!! button when I check the D&D Insider flash content.
I find the tools to be a pretty cool idea as I'm not very good at designing dungeons on paper and I'm not above spending some cash for the service.
But where do I sign up? As was said 15$ is peanuts (Or should be) for any working adult.
Gee, must be nice being rich.
As a working adult, I can assure you, $15 a month is NOT peanuts for me. With the girlfriend, gasoline prices, car payment, utility bills, rent, and food for the week, $15 is not an insignificant amount of money
The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.
HA That is very very funny, Figuring I Play a lot of the free MMo's And they are Just as good as the P2Ps. I can even give you NAMES! Rappelz, Rohan, 2 Moons, Last chaos, Shadowbane, Requiem, Shiaya Online, and many many more! So just because you pay for it, does NOT make it good. Take Granada Espada for example.... TANKED! So Paying 15 dollars a month? Is it worth it? maybe not. Good graphics nare fun and all, But NOTHING will take the place of a good old fashion mini on a card board Dungeon! TSR for LIFE!
Regular text book..................................................................$125
E-book text in pdf format........................................................$ 60
Savings between text and e-book.............................................$ 65
Now Wizards is offering two magazines and some tools for:
Monthly.................................................................................$180
Yearly...................................................................................$120
Savings between "monthly" and yearly online.................................$60
Two Magazines each month maybe $10 if bought off the shelf at $120
Subscription to both figuring the usual 30%..............................$ 84
Savings between subscription and monthly...............................$ 36
Now I did not subscribe to either magazine, though I consider myself a faithful reader. I looked at each and determined if the content at the time either a) appealed to me, or b) there was enough relevant material to be of value. So let's take out 4 mags each from the equation.
Eight each magazine for 8 months...........................................$ 80
Subscription with a few months of unused content in DDI............$120
Extraneous expense for unused content and tools......................$ 40
To me that is not a good value even if you pay for a year at a time.
The e-publishing concept is a way for publishers to provide content at a savings to both the consumer (you and me) while also reducing costs on the publisher's (here Wizards of the Coast) end. I see no elimination of links in the value chain here, in fact they added links to re-inflate their pricing scheme. From producer to customer there is virtually no difference between printed and online, and that is where many of us have a problem.
I took the survey initially asking about the DDI, I told them point blank in that survey, based on other online services it should not be over $60 a year period. And with the description of the online only e-tools, I thought that was a bit much, because I get much better control over my players characters and my NPC's with the stand alone product the CMP fixed because Wizards could not keep from changing the specifications with Fluid on the first attempt.
So no I will not be buying into this scheme to rent space and time to store my campaign information on a server that could be hacked by any 10 year old boy or girl in the world.
Thank you
I LOL'd at the guy that said he would "have" to pay the fee twice, once for himself and once for his wife. Dude, you don't "have" to pay it even once if you don't want to. No one is making you do anything game-related. If you can get your wife to game at the kitchen table with you, that's awesome! I don't know what the heck you need digital gaming tools for in a case like that.
I'd love it if my wife played RPGs with me, as it is I can barely get her to play cards or minis.
The e-publishing concept is a way for publishers to provide content at a savings to both the consumer (you and me) while also reducing costs on the publisher's (here Wizards of the Coast) end.
I fully agree with this part here. Publishers save money for printing and shipping when they go the PDF route. It really turns off a community when some of the savings aren't passed on to us.
I'd pay $5 a month, maybe $7.50 for something that was an e-subscription to the magazines, but charging $15 and bundling it with software I don't want or need is egregious. Not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent.
HA That is very very funny, Figuring I Play a lot of the free MMo's And they are Just as good as the P2Ps. I can even give you NAMES! Rappelz, Rohan, 2 Moons, Last chaos, Shadowbane, Requiem, Shiaya Online, and many many more! So just because you pay for it, does NOT make it good. Take Granada Espada for example.... TANKED! So Paying 15 dollars a month? Is it worth it? maybe not. Good graphics nare fun and all, But NOTHING will take the place of a good old fashion mini on a card board Dungeon! TSR for LIFE!
Rappelz and Rohan suck. So does Silk Road, in case anyone wants to mention that one. Haven't tried Shadowbane yet...
So maybe my equation is a little different, but, 3$ a month for online features seems potentially not unreasonable to me, given that my gaming group is scattered over the UK, and I have a new baby daughter that makes gaming weekends more challenging than they once were!
That said, I have no idea if these tools will:
a) really work as described
b) will provide compelling reasons for the fee as a whole.
until we "see them touch them and feel them" we are all talking rubbish.
To paraphrase someone famous "we have already established what you are, now we are only talking about the price..."
So maybe my equation is a little different, but, 3$ a month for online features seems potentially not unreasonable to me, given that my gaming group is scattered over the UK, and I have a new baby daughter that makes gaming weekends more challenging than they once were!
But the difference is, you're not getting the print magazines anymore either. Print magazines:
- Cost more to produce and distribute, and are therefore worth more.
- Must be printed out before play, either cheaply in B&W or more expensively in color.
- Cannot be read in the bathroom, on the bus, or anywhere else you read magazines to pass the time (PDF readers, laptop computers, and iPhones notwithstanding).
They are, frankly, inferior to the print product. I wouldn't pay $15 a month for online content alone, PERIOD.
But the point is still this, until we actually see and use the online tools we have no idea if they will be "valuable" enough to justify the cost (whatever it might be).
If you have a Mac and don't have parallels or BootCamp or just don't want to use the online tools, you are correct then just buy the magazines and don't subscribe to the online content.
If you have a Mac and don't have parallels or BootCamp or just don't want to use the online tools, you are correct then just buy the magazines and don't subscribe to the online content.
Clearing up some issues here.
- It's not clear, but it sounds like there will be NO print magazines. Only PDFs.
- It is also unclear, but it doesn't sound like there will be a pricing structure that allows access to the online content and not the online tools. It's either $15 a month or nothing.
- Parallels won't run these tools, as Shader 2.0 doesn't work in parallels, so it's not just firing up a separate process, it's rebooting entirely out of OSX.
If I can somehow get the online content without paying for the online tools, and that online content is at a reasonable price point ($5-7.50 a month, I'd say, given the inconvenience of the nonprint format), I'd definitely hop on board. I don't actually care about the online tools all that much. Handy, but nothing I can't reproduce on my own. I mean, the biggest draw is the character sheet where all your powers are listed with full text.
I type easily 75 WPM when I'm transcribing something and on a roll. How long would it take me to type around 10 powers into a Word document? An hour? I'd do that once or twice a year (how many new characters do you really use in the tabletop game a year?) or whatever, and spend my game money elsewhere. Like watching Iron Man twice a month at a matinee. :P
It's not clear
yup i definately agree with you on that... also regarding parallels and shader 2.0, that's a market call though ultimately (in the context of do "i" bother to invest in a multi-platform development or just a single platform development). Until we get the tools we'll never know...
You can't sell your crap magazine so you try to save a buck by making it digital while at the same time screwing us out of our money? yea sorry thats not how it works. All I want is the tools, you can keep your articales I never gave a crap about and screw your online support. I'll give ya 10 bucks for the tools and be on my way cause thats all it's worth.
It isn't a matter of money, I can spend 15 bucks a month, but I'm not gonna spend 15 bucks a month on crap.
Now let me ask you a question: Would you rather WoC put out one very good to great product once every 2-3 months or 2-3 mediocre to very poor products per month? Economically WoC must sell something on monthly basis in order to stay in business in order to cover wages, overhead, etc. This can be accomplished by shoveling tripe out the door on a monthly basis or having a service with a monthly fee and a quality product every 2-3 months. It basically boils down to a case of quality or quantity and I would rather have quality over quantity. For those who will continue to insist on having something in hand I ask: How is it cheaper to by 2 magazines and a hard-copy product at $20 - $35 even once a month than to spend $15/month for online content and a hardcopy product every 2-3 months?
I didn't subscribe to Dungeon & Dragon in paper format, I picked and chose my issues - i'm certainly not going to subscribe to issues I'm going to have to use my own ink and paper to print.
The character builder is a fun gimmick, as is the dungeon builder - but I can get both from other companies for a one off price.
Not interested at all in the virtual gaming table stuff - I play pen and paper to meet my frriends - if I want to online game we'll play a proper MMORPG.
And the micro transactions for vminis - that's just hilarious and anyone sad enough to buy into it seriously needs help. Micro transactions are 3 steps below CCGs on the moral scale : here's our product that you're already paying for - now here's 142 other things you'll want to buy (well, buy acces too really -after all you'll not actually "own" anything) to go with it , bet you're hoping is doesn't fold up now you've "bought" all of the bits hunh !
Now don't get me wrong - I'll buy the core books, and some of the modules if they take my fancy. I'll play and support the game - but not to the point where I'll fleeced on line.
From my point of view I have no problem paying $15/month for the online content. In order for me to join a group of mature gamers I would have to drive 60 -70 miles round trip. Factor in the price of gas at about $4/gallon and $15 dollars becomes very reasonable. As for the PDF format I merely scan over most of the content and anything that I find especially interesting or useful I print out and read when/where I can. This I also find appealing from a environmental standpoint since there isn't any wasted paper or ink.
Now let me ask you a question: Would you rather WoC put out one very good to great product once every 2-3 months or 2-3 mediocre to very poor products per month? Economically WoC must sell something on monthly basis in order to stay in business in order to cover wages, overhead, etc. This can be accomplished by shoveling tripe out the door on a monthly basis or having a service with a monthly fee and a quality product every 2-3 months. It basically boils down to a case of quality or quantity and I would rather have quality over quantity. For those who will continue to insist on having something in hand I ask: How is it cheaper to by 2 magazines and a hard-copy product at $20 - $35 even once a month than to spend $15/month for online content and a hardcopy product every 2-3 months?
And there is where your premise is flawed... IF I bought those issues every month. But I like many others, who are or consider themselves avid gamers, do NOT buy everything every month. Once in a good year I might have only bought say 8 issues total of BOTH magazines and yet Paizo still made a good profit!
I, among many others on this board, are saying we refuse to RENT content that we don't want or need. Especially content on a server that no matter what, presents a RIPE TARGET for hacking.
Lets look at the cost to them for their DDI
More server space
Programmers on staff full time
More Digital Security
That is what they added on top of what they had. Granted that takes money, but for all of that - I am not going to use it! Not worth the money to me. To me there is NO VALUE.
Now online (PDF) versions of Dungeon, Dragon Magazines... never worth it to me to get one or even both each month so why pay MORE for online versions of those when by all logic, ALL logic, it is cheaper for them to e-publish?
So far the marketing and push (as I have seen) is the added bonuses of, the ONLINE ONLY Char Gen, Mini Gen, etc. All of which I have stated I am not interested in. I AM STILL ON DIAL UP. ONLINE GAMING (whether it is WoW, Everquest, or this DDI char gen stuff) IS TOTALLY USELESS TO ME. IT TAKES TOO LONG TO LOAD ALL THE FLASH STUFF TO BE USEFUL TO ME.
I can however manage to download a few pdfs while I am online, if the content is WORTH it.
GIVE me a STANDALONE program that runs on my system, is under MY control and I would go for it. Programs like Core Rules and E-tools!
So yes I understand that the new content requires people to support it. What I disagree with is charging everyone as if they all will use ALL of the DDI to it's fullest extent. When it is obvious by the posts on this and other message boards here, that not everyone is able to (MAC users) or wants all of that content (people like me who bought the magazines when it struck their fancy and/or had the disposable income at the time.)
$15 is a little pricey for what we're going to get, especially considering that some of this stuff will be availiable without the DDI subsriptionin the first place. I'm hoping that this stuff will be absolutely incredible so you can justify the pricetag. I don't for a second think that charging extra for stuff like "v-minis" and dungeon tiles is justifiable after your loyal customers will have paid you monthly for the use of DDI. Especially since this is intangeable stuff. I can understand buying the program and paying a (lower) monthly price for it but paying for some of the minor aspects involved with the program like dungeon tiles is just absurd. Because you're pricing this like a MMO we're comparing DDI to an MMO so heres the deal. MMO's patch their program with new content for free as theyre already getting paid through a subsription, so why on earth are we going to be charged for "v-minis"?
I think what may be worth doing is splitting the service into:
- On-line Play & Reference
- Character Tools & Management
- Magazine downloads (sub or individual)
Now I would be interested in paying a one off fee for access to the Character tools and management software. Perhaps 20-40 pounds would be acceptable.
I'd possibly be interested in downloading or even subscribing to magazine downloads at a couple of pounds a magazine if I see anything that interests me in an issue.
On-line play isn't for me as I MMO but I can see the benefits of this for RPGA members and think a 3-5 pound subscription would be worth it.
This would benefit customers of Wizard by giving us freedom to pick and choose services, and not being tied into a subscription that seems unreasonable for the service they require.
It would also benefit WOC. By separating the services you can increase your customer catchment.
Customer like myself will not subscribe as they don't want the on-line play aspect and by having a cost comparable to MMO's it looks you are trying to compete with MMO's (which probably isn't the case)
-June-August 2005
-December-February 2007-08
DnD: Continues to interest me for 5 years.
-2003-2008
Given that, I'd say DDi is worth about the same as WoW... or at least is a more attractive product.
Is it more expensive than it should be? Probably, but from the sound of things, the software for the game table and visualizer was built from the ground up...
And hey, think of it this way: its about the same price as a box of DnD minis a month... and I'd say more content from the sound of things.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
hate to say it, but with gas prices now a days, it is alot of money. BUT i think that 15 a month is to see if you want it.. if you do, then sign up for the reduced 10/month for one year. yeah i know.. it's still 120 dollars. but if you keep the subscription at a one month price you also have the option of stopping it without any complications. whereas if you set up with the year or three months or what ever.. you would have complications.
Clearing up some issues here.
[LIST=1]
[*]It's not clear, but it sounds like there will be NO print magazines. Only PDFs.
[*]It is also unclear, but it doesn't sound like there will be a pricing structure that allows access to the online content and not the online tools. It's either $15 a month or nothing.
the online content from what i was reading will continue to be free. just not the tools
Wizards has no reason what so ever to charge this much for this kind of content, they just are cause they want more money, simple as that.
The production cost of the tools can be made back 10 fold by just making us buy the tools once. Server storage is nill if you make everything client side, so they can't really charge for that.
The E-zine alone can be covered by 3 people, some guy types, some guy does reasearch and some guy hits the publish button on adobe. I'm sorry thats still not worth 15 bucks amonth.
Also alot of people JUST want the tools, and can careless about RPGA or the Articles.
When you got things like Guild Wars and WoW charging farless for their content that takes heaptons more effort then what wizards is producing and ontop of that other programs just like this being offered for free. Where in fluffy jesus does Wizard's think they can charge this much for this kinda content.
Sorry Wizard's I don't like being force fed BS and I don't like paying for it either.
Is it more expensive than it should be? Probably, but from the sound of things, the software for the game table and visualizer was built from the ground up...
You know what other software is typically built, "From the Ground Up" ? Most of it. You know how much most games cost? 60$ if new. Once. For Life.
There are many programs out for making maps. Some are free. Many are good. If you want one that lets you upload your maps and DM them online, hell, Neverwinter Nights works for that. Probably other solutions out there as well.
Character visualizer? Ya thats kinda neat, i guess. But thereare alot of other "Neat" things online that are free. I could see this program as a FREEBIE on the wizards site with some flash advertisments, banners, and other kinds of sponsoring. But who would be convinced buy this to pay a montly subscription?
I could see spending 3$-5$ a year on this.
15$ a month? Id rather keep spending 10$ on gametap and play Sam & Max. Besides, i havnt finished IceWind Dale 2 on there yet, let alone CivIV.....
I for one think it is worth it to me and i will probaly never use the game table. I dont know how many 3.x books i bought jsut because of 1 set of rules or 1 feat or class. now with the insider i do not have to do that. the players handbook 2 comes out and i find hte only class i want to play is a bard, then i can just use the builder to make my bard and not have to have the book to reference what it gets. I would buy about 5-8 books a year easy on DND for trivial crap that i hardly ever used but i wanted the option. so that 120 dollers a year just replaces 240 a year. and thats just 1 feature of it.
so yes to me that is worth it. to others not so much.
I for one think it is worth it to me and i will probaly never use the game table. I dont know how many 3.x books i bought jsut because of 1 set of rules or 1 feat or class. now with the insider i do not have to do that. the players handbook 2 comes out and i find hte only class i want to play is a bard, then i can just use the builder to make my bard and not have to have the book to reference what it gets. I would buy about 5-8 books a year easy on DND for trivial crap that i hardly ever used but i wanted the option. so that 120 dollers a year just replaces 240 a year. and thats just 1 feature of it.
so yes to me that is worth it. to others not so much.
I may be completely off and if I have no clue then someone please say so but....
I thought you didnt get all the content of the books for free. You buy the book. get your code. enter it into your account and then you pay extra to get your characters updated with the new content.
I dont think you pay your $15 a month and then get all the content of the books you have to get both.
EDIT: after looking through the FAQ it says that the compendium will include rule elements. So I suppose if you knew what you were looking for it would be ok since its based on a searchable db and not a pdf version of the book.
I for one think it is worth it to me and i will probaly never use the game table. I dont know how many 3.x books i bought jsut because of 1 set of rules or 1 feat or class. now with the insider i do not have to do that. the players handbook 2 comes out and i find hte only class i want to play is a bard, then i can just use the builder to make my bard and not have to have the book to reference what it gets. I would buy about 5-8 books a year easy on DND for trivial crap that i hardly ever used but i wanted the option. so that 120 dollers a year just replaces 240 a year. and thats just 1 feature of it.
I'm having trouble with this concept that with DDI you may not have to buy other books. Is it anticipated that DDI will present all the new material in a manner that readily facilitates research and such so that you can make informed choices?
I recently went through the pre-order (and existing) 4e materials on Amazon and found within the first year well over $500 (retail prices) in core materials, campaing materials, adventures, and other accessories. Hmmm, will this really be different than 3/3.5e? I can't imagine that DDI is going to render all those unecessary - if it does then $120 (or even $180) is an excellent deal.
Perhaps the printed materials and DDI will be redundant and they are just catering to different preference. On the other hand, perhaps there is a great desire to sell all of the above to everyone. This would best be accomplished by having both overlapping and unique content to serve as teasers and hooks...
I plan to make use of the game table. They have said that VoIP is a must for launch of the game table. If you look at the price of a small number of concurrent connections to a Ventrillo server, it is about nine dollars a month. I am gainfully employed and would purchase by the year. If that cost is ten dollars per month, I see great value with this.
I could see spending 3$-5$ a year on this.
A year? Seriously?
Why in god's name would they bother for that price?
Do you think they spent that much on Dungeon and Dragon for the year?
They probably spent that much on the Insider stuff (I hope), but if they made insider a separate thing, they could charge an appropriate amount for that.
I can't imagine that the viewing audience (one that gets the core rules SET...not the PHB) into Amazon's top 20 through preorder is anywhere close to a mere 200,000 people- it's likely much, much more. (I mean 200,000 people divided by 50 states alone (not counting non USA individuals, of which there are many) is 4,000 per state.
If it were a reasonable price, and of reasonable quality, there would be a lot more excitement and a lot less naysaying.
Heck, I buy tons of RPG stuff, and I get excited about it. I spend probably close to $100 per month. I WANT this to be good and worthwhile, but right now it's not. That's why I hang around here...because I still do want it to be good (and also priced appropriately).
I mean, really, what kind of profit margin are they looking for here?
The cheaper the price, the more customers. The more customers, the more friends they bring into it, and so on and so on. Someone at WotC needs to wash the dollar signs out of his or her eyes and start paying attention to what's happening GLOBALLY with the economy.
Dragon is worth $5 a month to me.
Dungeons is about worth $2.50 a month for me. (Just a feeling that it is worth half as much to me as Dragon)
A good character generator that is kept uptodate with all of the latest powers and equipment weather I buy the suplments or not is worth another $5 a month.
Character visuallizer is worth only about .50 a month.
Rule compendium, not worth anything to me (I think) 0.0.
Virtual table top if there is a good way to be a player on with pickup games that would be worth $10 a month easy. But that is a big if, there may not be enough people active to support this.
So If I could get onto pickup games I this $23 bucks a month would be cool, and if not $13 bucks a month would be worth it. So.. I guess for $10 a month I'm in and I really hope that the Table top can provide me with at least one 4 hour pickup game a month.
JesterOC
Voice. Chat. Server.
If you want a good and decent voice chat server, you have to pay for it. Like Torg said earlier, take a look at what your typical quality voice chat server costs.
Plus the fact that the program itself is free, so the entire development of the suite must be paid for with monthly subscriptions. When an MMO is released, they charge for the initial game to help pay for the development. This usually continues until the game pays for itself, then they start basically giving the program away. The same follows for every expansion.
If you still don't think the money is worth it, don't pay.
not worth 15 bucks a month. i play world of warcraft for 15 bucks a month. i raid, and kill bosses and PVP. i play a GAME thats interactive for that money. you want people to pay that much for extras to the 4.0 DND game? ugh. get serious guys. who is dumb enough to pay 15 bucks for that? no thanx. you want me to pay that money, so i can get online and access my online version of MY books that i ALREADY bought from you? good game...
lol. voice chat server? team speak= free
The program itself is free, the actual host isn't. Somebody in your guild has to pay for it, just like every other voice chat client out there.
Because $5 per year times 200,000 people is 1 million dollars.
Compare the content they would put out in that entire year to if they were working on an actual book product. That's the price point they're basing it off of. A $30 splatbook.
A year of content on DDi is worth how many splat books?
A year of content on DDi is worth how many splat books?
I don't have enough info on that yet, but I would add that that is a years worth of RENTED content, which devalues the content for me.
I don't have enough info on that yet, but I would add that that is a years worth of RENTED content, which devalues the content for me.
What's rented about it? It is digital, but you still own it.
What's rented about it? It is digital, but you still own it.
You don't own the MTGO digital cards, why should you expect ownership of DDI property?
What's rented about it? It is digital, but you still own it.
Well some things appear to be rented.
Insider articles, material that one can read while an Insider unless copied (and there are ways to disable copy and paste) would not be usable if you stop paying.
Applications download become crippleware in that only parts of them can be used by a non member. So in someways one can say they rented part of the program.
Right now it looks like 3d starter kits and any purchased ones you will own, but just no longer can use (with possible exception of receiving a guest pass) could be considered rent as well.
The mags once completed you indeed will own should you download while a member, this of course infers the mags are completed. Individual articles that you down load and save you will own.
One question that I have not seen asked is what happens if user ID is changed, perhaps because of lost email account? How do you prove you are the same person to reclaim what you purchased after a break in membership?
How do you prove you are the same person to reclaim what you purchased after a break in membership?
Credit card?
Credit card?
Well those can be lost as well, one way ID theft another not paying the bill. *wink*
As far as it goes WotC has not announced how they will collect payment. Credit card might be an option, however part of target market is rather long and may not have one.
Well those can be lost as well, one way ID theft another not paying the bill. *wink*
As far as it goes WotC has not announced how they will collect payment. Credit card might be an option, however part of target market is rather long and may not have one.
If you're this worried about losing things, I would think you'd prefer digital. It'd be just as easy to lose a bound book.
If you're this worried about losing things, I would think you'd prefer digital. It'd be just as easy to lose a bound book.
*LOL*
Book big
email account/password and credit card small.
It is easier to lose small things then big things *wink*
1.D&D Character Visualizer- cool but not really necessary
2.D&D Character Builder- time saver/ neater character sheets
3.D&D Game Table- online play (WotC said that DMs will get passes for players who don't subscribe), You could also use it for normal play if you have 2 computers (1 for DM and 1 for Players.
4.D&D Dungeon Builder- time saver
5.D&DI Compendium- won't have to buy all the books
6.Dragon magazine- monthly magazine
7.Dungeon magazine- same as above
To me this seems worth it, but thats just me.
*LOL*
Book big
email account/password and credit card small.
It is easier to lose small things then big things *wink*
A book that can be damaged, lost, stolen, etc vs. something I can always log in and find.
I also don't have to find room on my shelf or actively keep organized.
Assuming I can save a digital copy of everything I purchase in DDi and still have the option to re-download if my computer gets boned, I don't see why I wouldn't want that.
Much of my enthusiasm for such a setup comes from my good experiences with Valve's Steam program. I love not having to keep track of discs.
The program itself is free, the actual host isn't. Somebody in your guild has to pay for it, just like every other voice chat client out there.
Yep, and I pay a whopping $3.95 a month for my guilds TS server.
But if the adventure path can give me 4 hours of D&D time with my friends for 18 months? That works out at ($9.95 x 12month subscription) / (52weeks x 4fours) = $119.40 / 208 hours = $0.57/hour.
That's just with the Adventurer Path. If there are some good articles, I might spend two hours reading them a week. I might join an online game for an extra four hours a week. I might spend a lot of time playing with the character generator. Etc.
Sounds worth it to me.
2.D&D Character Builder- time saver/ neater character sheets
It is entirely likely that many free offerings would accomplish the same thing.
3.D&D Game Table- online play (WotC said that DMs will get passes for players who don't subscribe), You could also use it for normal play if you have 2 computers (1 for DM and 1 for Players)
I have been been wondering about the possibility of players sharing a connection. Will each player have to subscribe, or can a group get together and take their turns via a single connection? If not, then a player could not play multiple PCs.
While I see that this could be useful, I don't think it should necessarily be bundled since there are certainly a large number of players who would never use this feature - it's about getting together and socializing. On-line play is for MMOs. Perhaps 2-3 price points for different degrees of services would be more appealing.
4.D&D Dungeon Builder- time saver
I think that remains to be seen, but there does seem to be potential here. I tend to think there will be free or at least one time fee capabilities out there and I shouldn't be forced to use this solution.
5.D&DI Compendium- won't have to buy all the books
Really? So they're just publishing many $100s of dollars of books for the suckers who didn't sign up? Just what content will be available through DDI?
If you guys want to know where the cost is coming from, it's three words.
Voice. Chat. Server.
http://www.ventrilo.com/dlprod.php?id=101
It costs like $5 for them to have a static ip
If you play one game a week with DDI, say for four hours, you're getting entertainment at about 94 cents per hour.
Movie? Anywhere from $4 to $20 per hour depending on what you buy in addition to the ticket and how long the movie is, etc.
Cable TV? Depending on how much you watch you may get more than DDI for your entertainment dollar, you may get less.
But you're under a buck an hour in DDI in all likelihood if you play at least once a week. That's not bad. And in addition you're getting other content, etc. If you don't play with it that often, then maybe it isn't for you.
Cute. But lets be realistic here. If you play one game every two weeks, say for two and a half hours, your getting entertainment at about $3 an hour.
Movie-Cheap theater, $3 ticket, 140 minutes. Thats 2 hours, 20 minutes. $1.78 an hour.
Cable TV-Heck no. There is no way I'm going to pay their prices.
Thats without even getting into other stuff. I bought the fudge 10th anniversary edition 2 weeks ago. Between 3 games I have used it for, I have spent around 10 hours using it. This is going to go up by 3 and a half hours tomorrow, since I'm GMing fudge at the gamestore. Then on friday, another two and a half hours, since thats how long games usually look and I'm going to GM for my brother and two of his friends. Thats 16 hours. Abour $2.07 dollars per hour, and thats just going to decrease. DDI will never decrease in cost per hour. So this one book is way better than DDI. Its got more than enough content for me to play pretty much any genre I want. Also, Fudge Factor, an online magazine produced more than Dungeon and Dragon do now, before it died. Its free, and frankly the content was usually better in it.
I have been been wondering about the possibility of players sharing a connection. Will each player have to subscribe, or can a group get together and take their turns via a single connection? If not, then a player could not play multiple PCs.
WotC_DM answered this. Taking it one step further. A game is table top, that is everyone in same place, the DM would be only one that needs a subscription for all players to be able to play their characters. He said one monitor could be set to player view for the players. I suspect actually two computers would need to be networked together for this to work. IAE yes more then one player can use one subscription. They of course would need to share the account I would expect.
I game with people who make six digits and game with people who spend most of their money going to college but to suggest the latter shouldn't question why an all digital medium costs what 3 Dungeon/Dragons cost before is inane and asinine.
I feel 15$ a month is a little high. I personally am willing to pay that price, mainly because the RPGA allows content from Dragon Magazine. Otherwise I probably wouldn't pay it (good move wizards! - that's the reason why I never subscribed to the PAzio mags because the content was useless to me)
Looking at the economic situation of the United States and the UK, we're headed for another recession barring some drastic changes. Canada (where I live) may well follow suit, because our economy is closely tied to the US and loosely liked to the UK. Gas prices are rising, housing costs are rising (at least where I live, in calgary) and wages are not rising fast enough to meet the increasing cost of living.
Now is a REALLY BAD time to overprice your goods. If you honestly feel 15$ a month is the lowest you can go and think it will be profitable, good for you (I'm sure you have financial experts looking into the situation). Even if not everybody subscribes, if you can turn a profit, good for you.
I honestly believe (without any economic training to back it up mind you) that Wizards would make more money if they lowered the price (Just look at Wal-Mart's strategy! They make a killing ESPECIALLY because the gas prices are so low! I HATE wal-mart, but the economics are such that I HAVE to get my goods at the lowest possible price, so they get my business even thogh I lothe their company =Z)
Cute. But lets be realistic here. If you play one game every two weeks, say for two and a half hours, your getting entertainment at about $3 an hour.
Movie-Cheap theater, $3 ticket, 140 minutes. Thats 2 hours, 20 minutes. $1.78 an hour.
Cable TV-Heck no. There is no way I'm going to pay their prices.
Thats without even getting into other stuff. I bought the fudge 10th anniversary edition 2 weeks ago. Between 3 games I have used it for, I have spent around 10 hours using it. This is going to go up by 3 and a half hours tomorrow, since I'm GMing fudge at the gamestore. Then on friday, another two and a half hours, since thats how long games usually look and I'm going to GM for my brother and two of his friends. Thats 16 hours. Abour $2.07 dollars per hour, and thats just going to decrease. DDI will never decrease in cost per hour. So this one book is way better than DDI. Its got more than enough content for me to play pretty much any genre I want. Also, Fudge Factor, an online magazine produced more than Dungeon and Dragon do now, before it died. Its free, and frankly the content was usually better in it.
Where the hell are you going to see movies for $3? Either its a movie theater that shows the movies that are only out on DVD (which come on now, most people when they think of going to the movies its to see new stuff which is like 8 bucks for the matinee these days).
As I have stated in another threat related to the price, and Ill repeat it here is my way of figuring out if things are worth it to me is if a piece of entertainment (games, movies, whatever) per hours cost is the same or less per hour for what I make working its worth it instantly. If its more, I have to judge on that but since even after taxes an hour of work equals a month of pay for DDI its way worth it even if I only use DDI for an hour a month (which hopefully it will be several hours). If you are only making 5 bucks an hour my idea still would be if you get 3 hours of enjoyment out of DDI a month it would be worth it to me. Obviously I have a few things going for me. I make semi decent money and im single and have cheap rent. Obviously as with all things you need to gauge if it fits in your budget.
However for what they are offering for $15 a month, to me seems like a deal (assuming it works as advertised and works well).
Where the hell are you going to see movies for $3? Either its a movie theater that shows the movies that are only out on DVD (which come on now, most people when they think of going to the movies its to see new stuff which is like 8 bucks for the matinee these days).
Cheap theater. Stuff usually gets there about two or three weeks after it goes to the normal theater. Crap gets there quickly, sometimes within days, stuff that is well loved(Juno, Ironman, Napoleon Dynamite) takes forever, in some cases four or five months. As for that takes one hour of work, but you get one hour, nice try. How about you calculate how many hours you work in a month, then find out how much money you have left after rent, food, insurance, and utilities, possible also whatever college costs. Divide that by how many hours you work to see how much luxury money you get per hour. Then work off of that.
Cheap theater. Stuff usually gets there about two or three weeks after it goes to the normal theater. Crap gets there quickly, sometimes within days, stuff that is well loved(Juno, Ironman, Napoleon Dynamite) takes forever, in some cases four or five months. As for that takes one hour of work, but you get one hour, nice try. How about you calculate how many hours you work in a month, then find out how much money you have left after rent, food, insurance, and utilities, possible also whatever college costs. Divide that by how many hours you work to see how much luxury money you get per hour. Then work off of that.
Again, I don't suggest that people necessarily use my formula to figure out expenses. Im single, make decent money, only have a few bills. My point is for something that costs $15 a month for potentially many hours of fun seems like a good deal. You figure lets just take the movies. Say on average for most people its $5. With gas prices, its probably another $2-3 in gas, potentially more depending on distance. For example I used to live about 15 miles from the nearest theatre, so now that would be about $5 in gas. Plus lets say you spend $3-5 for food either at the movie theatre (tho it would normally be a lot more) or you go out to eat after that. Say you take the low ends even with your $3 for the theatre (and again, thats real cheap, but I live in So Cal so yeah).
$3 ticket, $2 gas, $3 food. Thats $8 really minimum for most outings for say 3 hours of entertainment (2 hour movie+ and food and travel time). That to me is a good deal for what you get out of it. Hell my normal $8 for the ticket, I live right next to the theatre so say $1 for gas, and $10 (usually don't spend this much but still, its easy to spend this on popcorn and a drink at most theatres) thats close to $20. I generally go to the movies at least twice a month especially during the summer.
My point in all this is its not hard to rack up $15 a month on random extra expenses that most people don't think much about. Go down and buy a random Rockstar energy drink and thats $2.50 just for that. My (and a few others when it comes to the $15 a month) issue is people get angry at wotc for not making it cheaper cause they don't want to spend $15 a month. And again, im not suggesting that people don't say anything as Wizards im sure wants to hear that (tho they may not change it, but still feedback is feedback). However Wizards is going to have the idea that people, even people who make not so great money spend a decent amount in extras. For example, people play World of Warcraft. They come out with DDI for relatively the same amount of money per month. You then make a decision, do I want Wow or do I want DDI to play Dungeons and Dragons. Up to you on which you would rather do, assuming you only have $15 a month to spend. (to clear things up, I am not suggesting that they are actively trying to compete with Wow but the price points are similar and people on the forums are fond of making the comparison).
Also, and I admin this fully, those people whose cases are "$15 is way too much" are hurt by people like me. I will gladly pay $15 a month, plus v minis (assuming they are cool and the tools work well). I have more disposable income than some, perhaps even most (certainly probably most of the people complaining about the montly fee). What my issue is is the people demanding that WOTC charge less cause they either can't spend the $15 a month (can't afford it or their budget only allows for so much and they would rather spend it on Warcraft/insert some other activity) or feel that $15 does not fit into their calculations on if its worth it. Both of these issues are not Wizards fault that you either can't/don't want to or flat refuse to spend the money. The only thing they lose is a possible subscriber, which unless they made it like $5 or even $10 (which you can get if you pay for the year) they would get, however they lose that much money per subscriber by dropping the price. And hell they may evaluate that when they start the service.
The only way I see the $15 price point changing is if it opens, and no one signs up (no one i mean by say less than 25% of what they thought would be to start with). However say they get 1000 people (easier to do the math on this) to sign up at $15. Thats $15,000 a month. Say they drop it to $10 a month and 500 more people sign up. Their revenue doesn't change. They still only get $15,000. One could argue that more people are enjoying their service, but when the business looks at the bottom line nothing has changed (actually in all reality, they are now making less money. Those 500 have not contributed any new money at the $10 price point, but they increased the load and bandwidth by 50% thats being used). They have determined that $15 is what the market can bare and that number will let them make a healthy profit. Obviously if they charged $20 and only 750 signed up, they also would only be making $15,000. But more than likely 750 would not be enough subscribers to sustain it. Basically not enough new subscribers after the initial surge will probably sign up to stave off people leaving. I certainly think $15 is reasonable.
And I think plenty of people will sign up for it. And im sure there are many that disagree with my above statements.
The only way I see the $15 price point changing is if it opens, and no one signs up (no one i mean by say less than 25% of what they thought would be to start with). However say they get 1000 people (easier to do the math on this) to sign up at $15. Thats $15,000 a month. Say they drop it to $10 a month and 500 more people sign up. Their revenue doesn't change. They still only get $15,000.
It's still the same amount right off the bat, but if they raised the price in 6 months or a year, they would probably retain most of their customers.
The only real pro for WotC setting the fee at $180 a year is that it keeps some people away, which may be important to them for keeping their system's stress load at a minimum.
If MTGO is any indication of WotC's programming skills, I would avoid DDI like the plague if were you guys. At least, for the first couple of years anyway while they sort out the bugs (which I'm confident will be a mass infestation).
One could argue that more people are enjoying their service, but when the business looks at the bottom line nothing has changed (actually in all reality, they are now making less money. Those 500 have not contributed any new money at the $10 price point, but they increased the load and bandwidth by 50% thats being used). They have determined that $15 is what the market can bare and that number will let them make a healthy profit. Obviously if they charged $20 and only 750 signed up, they also would only be making $15,000.
The numbers are not a direct ratio, sir. Dropping the fee by a third does not mean they will only pick up a third more customers. At $5 a pop, their number of online customers would realistically jump more than 33%.
There are other factors here, too. Payment must be made by credit card, which means fees that have to be paid to the credit card companies for those services. That raises the price.
I realize I am rambling but I am hitting the points as they come. I could probably type something more comprehensive but I just woke up.
I certainly think $15 is reasonable.
Of course you do. You already established that you a single person with a good-paying job. Try to respect the fact that not everyone is living that sort of "high life," and that in fact most people, married and with children, or those who ARE children here, don't have it that good in the current economy. I am married, no kids though, and my wife and I both work at decent paying jobs as well, so I could probably swing the $180 annual expense if I really wanted to.
But I cannot justify it in our monthly budget, not for something that people have been doing for free for years and years.
And I think plenty of people will sign up for it. And im sure there are many that disagree with my above statements.
Agreed on both accounts.
Here, we don't. Here, it's $7.50 per person for matinee pricing, and $10.50 for regular pricing, and that's at the cheapest theatre we have.
Add in the gas, add in the food we buy before we go see the movie (since they organize most movie showings around food times in order to sell food, and we decide it's better to hit a McD than not), and we're spending around $70 to $90 by the time all five of us are done.
Versus my D&D game, where I ask everyone to chip in $5 who wants a large pizza from little caesar's, or something like that every month. If push comes to shove, I can ask them for $1 from each player every month and use that to fund D&DI for myself to get adventures.
And it always comes down to whats more important to you. If you have $15 a month for entertainment expenses and you have to choose between movies or DDI, its up to you to choose. Not up to WOTC and the movie theatre to lower their prices to suit your needs, especially when other people are happy to pay that and more.
And in my example, dropping the price by a third brought it 50% more people which in all reality I don't think you would get that kind of jump. I would equate it to your example of dropping it by a 3rd to $10 and getting a third new subscribers, which then would be less money for more subscribers. Even if doubt the amount of people signed up, 2000 subscribers. YOu are talking about an increase of 100% subscribers but only 50% of revenue and a 100% to bandwidth costs (obviously as subscribers go up, the initial cost is then spread out).
And im not a business major, so im sure my math equates to squat. However im sure they have some business majors on their payroll and have come up with $15 a month is what they can get away with, provide a good experience and make a healthy profit which is what they need. Lack of good experience on the end users means that it won't be around very long and if they aren't making a healthy product, to them, why bother with it in the first place?
what else can you get for $15 a month?
you can play a game online with other people (MMORPG,etc)
see maybe two movies
eat fast food three times
you could have a soda every day
you could drive 80 miles
the point is you could do lots of things for $15/month, if you do any of things at these levels or more, you can't really complain about the cost unless it's not worth it to you, but please don't tell me something you have never done and will never try is wrong for me.
one of the points I was making is that there are people willing to pay $15 a month. Demanding that WOTC lower the price cause you (I use you as in anyone not willing to pay, not necessarily you the person) don't want to pay their price. Its like going to the store and wanting to buy a gallon of milk that they are charging $5 for and you are not willing to pay more than say $3, and then getting upset and angry that they are charging too much. It may be beyond your budget but not beyond what the market as a whole can bare.
That's the problem, though. The market CAN'T bare it, not when milk IS $5 and gas is $4 a gallon.
I agree, WotC will charge what it wants as is their right, and there will be some people who pay it. I would argue, respectfully, that those people would pay the fee no matter how much it was.
The economy is completely and totally in the tank, no pun intended. The U.S. is one of the few modernized countries in the world not actively rioting over things like food and medicine and transportation expenses like fuel. At least, not yet. And we are sitting here debating how much a digital entertainment service should cost.
That's the problem, though. The market CAN'T bare it, not when milk IS $5 and gas is $4 a gallon.
I agree, WotC will charge what it wants as is their right, and there will be some people who pay it. I would argue, respectfully, that those people would pay the fee no matter how much it was.
The economy is completely and totally in the tank, no pun intended. The U.S. is one of the few modernized countries in the world not actively rioting over things like food and medicine and transportation expenses like fuel. At least, not yet. And we are sitting here debating how much a digital entertainment service should cost.
Well, its because its still not effecting the majority of people enough to make it worth it. I can still afford gas and milk. Yes, other things go down or I choose to drive less. Some could argue that because gas is more, people stay home more. DDI gives them a reason to stay home and play. However its been shown that people who forgo driving for a day to save gas, usually make up for driving more on other days to make up for it tho you can save by doing all your errands in one part of town at once rather than seperate trips.
And it may simply come down to WOTC decided like many decide on expenses "$15 is the lowest we are willing to go per month (or $10 if you pay for a year). Any lower and its not worth doing it." There is two sides to this issue. They aren't willing to go below $15/$120 for the year and many may not be willing to pay $15 per month/$120 for the year. So WOTC will get what they want out of it, and the end users will do the same.
Like others have said, I could be playing something like World of Warcraft, for far cheaper than what this would cost me, which again is something I've never done, simply because of the amount they charge us. Not because I can't afford the monthly fee, but because we just shouldn't have to pay that much.
I just thought I'd throw in my two cents and let you guys know that there are new players as well who are turned off by the idea of paying so much. I don't see them finding a very big audiance if they're expecting people to pay so much, I would go to WoW or any number of other MMO's rather than paying for this service.
You're also getting less than what ALL mmorpgs are, so of course you should be paying less
Personally, I feel that you are potentially getting a heck of a lot more than what an MMORPG offers.
the subscription fee falls under the category of "entertainment expenses"
what else can you get for $15 a month?
you can play a game online with other people (MMORPG,etc)
see maybe two movies
eat fast food three times
you could have a soda every day
you could drive 80 miles
the point is you could do lots of things for $15/month, if you do any of things at these levels or more, you can't really complain about the cost unless it's not worth it to you, but please don't tell me something you have never done and will never try is wrong for me.
Exactly this. My $15/month spent here is a hell of a lot cheaper than what I could be spending my money on in lieu of DnDI. If I choose to play on DnDI once each month instead of going to the bar, I saved $35.
The fact is that they are offering a service. No one is being forced to join, therefore no one is being forced to pay the price. Having access to the content is only the tip of the iceberg. Having access to the potentially incredible DM's and players alone is worth the price of admission.
I like the idea of the online game table and character builder, but I don't think it equates to an MMO, which I also pay to play. The beauty of MMOs for me is that you can logon anytime and do solo activities (crafting, solo adventuring) even if your friends or pick up groups are not available (and I hate pick up groups.)
The game table will let you play with your friends it appears if they all pay the price as well. I've started talking to my friends who can't play in our regular tabletop games, but shelling out the subscription fee is keeping them away. This will be worth far less to me if it's not relatively easy and affordable to get one's various friends willing to sign up.
I believe something like $3 to $10 a month is far more reasonable.
rooster
It will need to do all those things that programs like OpenRPG cannot do. Like keeping track of who has marked who. Giving mouse-over and/or drop down menus when a user indicates a target listing what actions she can do against/for such a target including all appropriate bonuses. Minimize the need of any player or DM to refer to their paper information or rulebooks to determine what their next course of action should be. Of course, having a text buffer large enough to put in nicely detailed information and poses for a good RP experience is also a must. If the system falls short of this, I doubt Insider will be honestly worth it's current asking price.
Or a month of D&DI, with the promised features...
Yeah, easy sell for me.
It's _really_ worth $15 per month when you're only spending $10, too.
Out of all the replies I've read so far, the majority are debating the cost. Which I think most of us agree is too high. So how does WotC get us to buy an obviously overpriced service? By eliminating the competition. From what I hear of their GSL, it hinders 3rd party operations. This is market manipulation! By having the only LEGAL service of its type, they've artificially increased its value. I'm not a legal wizard, but isn't this kind of market manipulation illegal in many areas of the world? I pray that most of us see this for what it is and demand that WotC make an affordable service that is in line with the market and what they're offering.
What there are doing is not market manipulation. All WotC is doing is protecting its copyright and trademark material. This is perfectly legal in most countries of the World. Now if WotC tried to prevent access to other games tables or try to control other RPGs that they do not own that would be restraint of trade and illegal.
When one talks about market manipulation one talks about stocks or commodities that any person can own, purchase, sell. The market can be effected by cornering the market, own most of something and only sell at inflated price, sometimes one might deflate the price as well. There is no crime here in what WotC is doing.
An open gaming system is not a "right".
And truthfully, the 3.0 OGL did more harm than good. Too many game designers fell back on the OGL lazily rather than come up with their own rules system. Some of them even changed their rules system to WotC's d20 when their existing systems and mechanics were already superior.
IMO.
A book that can be damaged, lost, stolen, etc vs. something I can always log in and find.
Let me spin this: Yep, you can always log in and find it, I agree completely.....
.....PROVIDED you continue to pay WOTC $15......Forever.
That's one thing that people don't seem to talk about when they compare the prices for Dragon and Dungeon to the Dragon and Dungeon in DDI...this is content that vanishes from your possession the instant you decide not to pay anymore...same for the table, and same for your collection of micro-transaction minis.
Unless you're demolishing your books with great frequency, I'm thinking you could put $15/month in the bank, and if even TWO of your books were destroyed you could spend 70 bucks to replace them that year and still have $110 in the bank at year end for a new book.
How would you feel about an incredibly durable and cannot-be-lost book...but you have to pay the publisher $15/month to rent it?
It makes no sense to compare the Dungeon and Dragon print prices to what you get here - - when they cancelled my remaining subscription, no one came to my house to collect and destroy my magazines.
They have an interesting experiment here. My group makes (on average) an incredibly good living, but this is correlated with age -- as we get older we tend to make more, but then we also tend to have kids, kids with activities, mortgages, college tuitions looming, car payments, insurance for kids who can now drive, etc. So while we are making good money, we DO actually balk at $15 X 6 of us x 12 months = $1080 per year...plus physical books, plus whatever ridiculous fee they're going to charge for miniatures if we decide to use those.
Add to this that many folks like me only get to play one solid day per month. Now you're looking at shelling out about 90 per gaming session for this content that doesn't seem all that slick at the moment.
The target audience seems to have to meet a set of criteria:
1) People with expendable income -- enough to pay $15 / month plus additional fees, but not so much income that they've become old folks like me with kids and other budget priorities...so some sweet spot of income. Maybe their target audience is divorced nerds.
2) People who need to play a fantasy game, but aren't able to be in the same room, and have not yet fallen in love with some other tool (Fantasy Grounds, Klooge, etc.) to accomplish this
3) People who are okay with the idea that all the content they've paid for goes poof the minute they cannot or will not pay anymore.
4) People who want to play 4E
5) People who meet 1 through 3 but don't want to play an MMORPG
It seems like you have to meet almost all of these.
For me (and others, it appears), it seems far less about whether or not an individual HAS the money, but whether or not that person believes that this amount should be spent on a product with these features and limitations.
Oops...gotta go...it turns out that The Armoury is here to pick up my miniatures since I stopped sending them my monthly fee.
And truthfully, the 3.0 OGL did more harm than good. Too many game designers fell back on the OGL lazily rather than come up with their own rules system. Some of them even changed their rules system to WotC's d20 when their existing systems and mechanics were already superior.
IMO.
Yes, but it also allowed other people to release systems, that they still owned, but could be used for open content. For instance Fudge allowed for the development of Fate, and Spirit of the Century. Spirit of the Century is just amazing. It was opened in 2005 with the OGL.
Yes, but it also allowed other people to release systems, that they still owned, but could be used for open content. For instance Fudge allowed for the development of Fate, and Spirit of the Century. Spirit of the Century is just amazing. It was opened in 2005 with the OGL.
Which is why I said "more harm than good." There was good, just not as much as harm.
Out of all the replies I've read so far, the majority are debating the cost. Which I think most of us agree is too high. So how does WotC get us to buy an obviously overpriced service? By eliminating the competition. From what I hear of their GSL, it hinders 3rd party operations. This is market manipulation! By having the only LEGAL service of its type, they've artificially increased its value. I'm not a legal wizard, but isn't this kind of market manipulation illegal in many areas of the world? I pray that most of us see this for what it is and demand that WotC make an affordable service that is in line with the market and what they're offering.
No, this is no different than an MMORPG not allowing its program to be run on private servers or a restaurant chain not allowing its signature items to be marketed/sold by competitors.
The difference, of course, is that you can still use other white board programs to run this game like any other, they just can't sell you the rules.
Let me spin this: Yep, you can always log in and find it, I agree completely.....
.....PROVIDED you continue to pay WOTC $15......Forever.
That's one thing that people don't seem to talk about when they compare the prices for Dragon and Dungeon to the Dragon and Dungeon in DDI...this is content that vanishes from your possession the instant you decide not to pay anymore...same for the table, and same for your collection of micro-transaction minis.
My understanding is that the dungeon/dragon articles are still mine to read and to hold if I cancel.
But your point is very valid regarding V-minis. What value are your imaginary minis when I can't use your table WotC?
That being said, if they really want to rake in the cash, here's what they should do:
The Core Books that have already been released should be included in the subscription. Any further books should be released first to DDi subscribers and offer a single price for the published books (which WotC ships direct to door) and the online DDi content. WotC can make more money by selling retail price to customers directly than they can wholesale to distributers. Plus, they make the players happy by giving them the opportunity to get something more (pre-release date books and online book content) than non DDi players, it incentivizes the DDi for the $15/mo fee while simultaneously increasing the profit from published materials. Since they're offering both together the subscribers have nothing to complain about. Sure they'll make less than offering published works + online costs, but it should even out when people get annoyed with the subscription concept and micro-transactions.
My understanding is that the dungeon/dragon articles are still mine to read and to hold if I cancel.
But your point is very valid regarding V-minis. What value are your imaginary minis when I can't use your table WotC?
Only the stuff you download are yours to read if you cancel. If you didn't dl it, you don't get it.
Only the stuff you download are yours to read if you cancel. If you didn't dl it, you don't get it.
Has that been confirmed?
Could I not log in to my "inactive" account and view everything that the account is "qualified" to view? Including every issue of Dungeon and Dragon that came out while my account was "active"?
Why wouldn't it work this way? They would have to do extra work to make it not function this way.
I seriously doubt that once I deactivate my account they'll delete it.
Has that been confirmed?
Could I not log in to my "inactive" account and view everything that the account is "qualified" to view? Including every issue of Dungeon and Dragon that came out while my account was "active"?
Why wouldn't it work this way? They would have to do extra work to make it not function this way.
I seriously doubt that once I deactivate my account they'll delete it.
My understanding is you can download pdfs of Dragon and Dungeon and you can keep them if you cancel. However, I am not aware of the ability of going back after you cancelled to go back and download the PDFs again. I somehow doubt that, tho there necessarily wouldn't be a reason you couldn't other than programming something in the system that said "Ah this account had a sub for 3 months between Jan-March so get him/her those three months of magazines." As cool as that would be, I am guessing WOTC does not have that in place. Moral of the story: Always download the PDFs as they come out and store them somewhere.
My understanding is you can download pdfs of Dragon and Dungeon and you can keep them if you cancel. However, I am not aware of the ability of going back after you cancelled to go back and download the PDFs again. I somehow doubt that, tho there necessarily wouldn't be a reason you couldn't other than programming something in the system that said "Ah this account had a sub for 3 months between Jan-March so get him/her those three months of magazines." As cool as that would be, I am guessing WOTC does not have that in place. Moral of the story: Always download the PDFs as they come out and store them somewhere.
See but I don't understand that. That would be extra work.
Like, the database is not "open" to begin with. You don't buy a subscription, log in, and you see the entire database of all the articles.
Articles are "assigned" as "accessible" to accounts in one of two ways:
- The article is released when you have a subscription, your login is "active"
- You pay a fee for the individual article
In either case, your login is "marked" so that it can access those articles.
So if I have a subscription from January to June, cancel it in July, and then come back in October, I will have all articles "approved" for my login from Jan-July and from October on, but none of the articles that came out from July-October (when I resubscribed).
I could pay individual fees for each of those which would then be marked as "accessible" on my account.
Then I could cancel, and not be getting approved for anything as it comes out again (just like from July-October), but I can still log in and see/download every article that I am approved for.
---
The only other alternative I can imagine is if they emailed you the PDFs as a one-time transaction, which would be a nightmare for them, or if they "wiped" or "deleted" your approvals for your login each time you quit. Which...would not make sense.
---
Now, with the V-minis, it's annoying because if I'm not currently subscribed I don't have the virtual table so I can't use them. I don't give a damn that they'd be there for me if I re-subscribe, I would want some use for them regardless of subscription after purchase.
See but I don't understand that. That would be extra work.
Like, the database is not "open" to begin with. You don't buy a subscription, log in, and you see the entire database of all the articles.
Articles are "assigned" as "accessible" to accounts in one of two ways:
- The article is released when you have a subscription, your login is "active"
- You pay a fee for the individual article
In either case, your login is "marked" so that it can access those articles.
So if I have a subscription from January to June, cancel it in July, and then come back in October, I will have all articles "approved" for my login from Jan-July and from October on, but none of the articles that came out from July-October (when I resubscribed).
I could pay individual fees for each of those which would then be marked as "accessible" on my account.
Then I could cancel, and not be getting approved for anything as it comes out again (just like from July-October), but I can still log in and see/download every article that I am approved for.
---
The only other alternative I can imagine is if they emailed you the PDFs as a one-time transaction, which would be a nightmare for them, or if they "wiped" or "deleted" your approvals for your login each time you quit. Which...would not make sense.
---
Now, with the V-minis, it's annoying because if I'm not currently subscribed I don't have the virtual table so I can't use them. I don't give a damn that they'd be there for me if I re-subscribe, I would want some use for them regardless of subscription after purchase.
Sure, they will likely keep a history of the files you have permission to view. But if your subscription lapses, you can't get in the front door anymore, so what does it matter if they know what files you might be able to view, if only you had paid the monthly fee. You can't get to them anyway.
Sure, they will likely keep a history of the files you have permission to view. But if your subscription lapses, you can't get in the front door anymore, so what does it matter if they know what files you might be able to view, if only you had paid the monthly fee. You can't get to them anyway.
Why couldn't I still log in? Why would they "turn off" my login when they can just stop assigning permissions to it?
Why couldn't I still log in? Why would they "turn off" my login when they can just stop assigning permissions to it?
'Cause you didn't pay?
'Cause you didn't pay?
Right. Which is why my permissions would be turned off. I could still log in. The technology exists.
EG:I as DM am able to invite them to play and have basic control over there character mini's and we can play. (even if I can't we might just be able to cheat the system and keep creating free trials for the players each time.)
However what we have been told.
Vminis you own are yours for life (of your account an minimum).
That the ezines published during membership all yours.
Using a guest pass allows you access to Game Table.
It clearly is possible that it would follow that a former Insider could login into Game Table with a Game pass and have access to Vmiinis and the ezines purchased/paid for while an Insider. A data base clearly is required to track all Vminis owned it would not take much more to indicate in such database ezines paid for (Just add dates of membership).
AFAIK under current plan an nonInsider can not purchase a Vmini, however perhaps they will be possible to be purchased during a guest pass (not a good idea IMO).
Currently forum login is Insider login and I see no reason for that to change.
We do not have enough details.
$10 a month is not a bad price to pay for the huge amount of quality content you get for Dungeon and Dragon mag and if the other online tools are as clean and fast as the compendium they will just add to the deal.
But if you don't think it is worth it then shut the heck up and just don't use it.
And if $10 is too much for you then maybe you should cut out fast food. That at least might reduce the fat and greasy smell at GENCON.
And if $10 is too much for you then maybe you should cut out fast food. That at least might reduce the fat and greasy smell at GENCON.
That would require bathing as well.
Wow.. after reading this thread I remember why I never come to these boards except when enworld is down.
$10 a month is not a bad price to pay for the huge amount of quality content you get for Dungeon and Dragon mag and if the other online tools are as clean and fast as the compendium they will just add to the deal.
But if you don't think it is worth it then shut the heck up and just don't use it.
And if $10 is too much for you then maybe you should cut out fast food. That at least might reduce the fat and greasy smell at GENCON.
Except the price is $15, not $10.
$10 would have gotten me as a customer...
It's not that $15 a month is an incredible amount of money, but I'm paying more money for less product with a bunch of extra stuff I'll never use. They've definitely taken a step in the wrong direction since Paizo published Dragon and Dungeon.
Maybe if a subscription came with unlimited access to the Dragon/Dungeon archives it would be worth it. But it doesn't.
In a nutshell, any one of these things would convince me to subscribe:
A. Lower the price
B. Offer the magazines a-la-carte
C. Send me an ACTUAL magazine
But as it stands it's just not a good value.
Except the price is $15, not $10.
$10 would have gotten me as a customer...
$5 is that much of a difference to you?
And also you can get it for $10. Get the year plan. People will be able to test it out for a month or two probably before they have to sign up (at least a couple of weeks). Most people I would think would be able to decide then if they want to do it. I plan on trying it and if it super kicks ass im doing the year plan. If its only so so and its a short trial, I may do a couple of $15 a month and then upgrade to a year if its something I see myself using.
Except the price is $15, not $10.
$10 would have gotten me as a customer...
Well I will be getting it for $10. Because I can pay for a year in one go. If you have to scrap together $15 every month to pay your RPG bill then... well... maybe you should look into selling plasma.
maybe you should look into selling plasma.
Seriously. It's...surprisingly good money for the effort it takes.
I'm under the impression that you'll be able to create an account without paying for a subscription. So you'd essentially have an "empty" account. In fact that's what I'd say everybody has now. I already have a D&Di account, I'm just not subscribed. But nothing in DDi requires a subscription yet.
This might be logical as ezines once completed can be purchased by nonInsiders.
Actually under beta you are subscribed as an Insider if you choose to be, you are offered the option to logout anytime (Or at least my browser so indicates to me).
I suspect once pay model is in place account holders will be required at some point in time required to provide finance transfer information.
This might be logical as ezines once completed can be purchased by nonInsiders.
Actually under beta you are subscribed as an Insider if you choose to be, you are offered the option to logout anytime (Or at least my browser so indicates to me).
I suspect once pay model is in place account holders will be required at some point in time required to provide finance transfer information.
I see it more of like an "amazon" thing. I could always log into amazon and not buy anything, but look at my order history (DDi non-subscription: previously purchased content), or I could pay for Amazon Prime and gain the benefits of that whenever I log in (DDi subscription: access to content as it gets published, access to the "gaming tools").
I see it more of like an "amazon" thing. I could always log into amazon and not buy anything, but look at my order history (DDi non-subscription: previously purchased content), or I could pay for Amazon Prime and gain the benefits of that whenever I log in (DDi subscription: access to content as it gets published, access to the "gaming tools").
Until TTK (They That Know) tell us something both guesses I suspect are valid. In either case the system would need to be keyed to user ID.
Maybe if a subscription came with unlimited access to the Dragon/Dungeon archives it would be worth it. But it doesn't.
I'm kinda hoping they wise up and open the archives with a subscription. How about PDF's of ALL the old content from 1st edition - present like they did with Palace of the Silver Princess?
If they want to convert adventures even better but I love collecting all the old world book stuff that's out of print. Why not make that available?
And yeah the more Dungeon/Dragon magazine content we get the better.
I'm willing to pay money to WOTC every month if they give me a quality product. The price seems ok as it is now but giving me archive access would really help close the deal.
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money?
Trivial? WTF?
I don't know if you're living in the same country I am, but one-hundred-eighty dollars a year for two online magazines... which have to be printed out yourself (that's another roughly twenty-five dollars a month on printer ink.)
That's $480 a year for me and my gaming group to get Dragon and Dungeon magazines... which is all I really care about (some of the other programs seem like nifty ideas, but not something I'd EVER pay a monthly fee to use.)
And with gas prices the way they are I only barely make it to work and back all week... and maybe half the time it seems like I'm having to make a choice between putting gas in car or food on the table. So I'm wondering how exactly that is a trivial amount of money.
I don't see why we can't see the magazines for free like now anyway, and the rest of the idiots can pay for the extra crap that don't matter.
WoTC being as moneyhungry as they are is one of them, I'm taking my buisness elsewhere.
Amazon anyone?
Trivial? WTF?
I don't know if you're living in the same country I am, but one-hundred-eighty dollars a year for two online magazines... which have to be printed out yourself (that's another roughly twenty-five dollars a month on printer ink.)
That's $480 a year for me and my gaming group to get Dragon and Dungeon magazines... which is all I really care about (some of the other programs seem like nifty ideas, but not something I'd EVER pay a monthly fee to use.)
And with gas prices the way they are I only barely make it to work and back all week... and maybe half the time it seems like I'm having to make a choice between putting gas in car or food on the table. So I'm wondering how exactly that is a trivial amount of money.
If you're subscribing for a whole year, it's $10/month or $120 a year.
Also, you get more than just the magazines, when DDI goes to pay you'll be getting all the utilities that come with DDI as well.
If you're subscribing for a whole year, it's $10/month or $120 a year.
Also, you get more than just the magazines, when DDI goes to pay you'll be getting all the utilities that come with DDI as well.
He said he didn't care about the other stuff...
He said he didn't care about the other stuff...
Which doesn't negate their place in the pricing structure.
15 bucks equates to almost 4 gallons to me. my car gets 40mpg(thank EVERYTHING) so, that means its around 190 miles. 190 miles taken out of my car every month is alot of money. This is why i quit WOW. this is why i won't subcribe. but, i won't complain that right now its free.
I don't see why we can't see the magazines for free like now anyway, and the rest of the idiots can pay for the extra crap that don't matter.
Cause you get what you pay for. The magazines go free and they start sucking (or at least won't be as good). Not sure the current sentiment on the magazines but I think they are good as of now (and for those that are "Wait a minute, its free." it won't be for long.) As I have said before in other posts, its not WOTC's fault that the economy sucks and people are having a hard time getting to work. Obviously in a perfect world, money would not be the issue that it is today and we could get everything we wanted. However, thats either never going to happen or is a LONG LONG ways off.
Its also been stated that the magazines will be available outside of the normal DDI subscription. However that price point has not been determined as of yet. So for those that want the magazines don't have to pay for the whole thing anyways.
Which doesn't negate their place in the pricing structure.
It does to me. I'll never use them so I have to consider paying $15 or $10 a month for Dragon alone. Thats far too much. For others the existance of the various online programs may add to the value, but not me.
It does to me. I'll never use them so I have to consider paying $15 or $10 a month for Dragon alone. Thats far too much. For others the existance of the various online programs may add to the value, but not me.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dndifaq
How much will the digital magazines cost?
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are included as part of your subscription. Nonsubscribers will also be able to purchase individual PDF issues of the magazines (pricing TBD).
Please, for the love of all things holy (or unholy depending) stop saying that you have to get the subscription just to get the magazines. Now, if Wizards changes their minds about the above, then its different but as its stated right now, people who just want the magazines will be able to get the magazines for some TBD cost.
Wizards wants to have me pay 15 bucks a month? or even 10 a month for DIGITAL magazines?
this is why the whole, and I mean WHOLE wizards community downloaded illegal PDF's in the first place of like every book to ever be published? because it made no sense.
See I jumped on a deal though. 50 bucks for all 3 core 4.0 books is pretty good imo. That is 15 dollars for a hard copy. that is a good deal. 15 dollars a month for something thats digital is a far stretch for alot of people, considering its digital.
I understand that in this response I have violated(or i think i have) the COC because I mentioned illegal PDFs. I don't encourage it, because I like wizards and the games they put out, and i love the hell out of DND. But at the same time, people are wizards should know why people are reluctant to pay what they are asking, because other options were available even though illegal.
Also, I agree with some of the above posters: Not every person subscribing is going to be making use of all the features, so they are paying for a lot of things they simply aren't going to be using. I would love to construct dungeons, and I also like the dungeon and dragon magazines, but the main reason I'd be paying would be to have a fairly reliable way to play D&D online, either with a game group that I find or as a member of the RPGA.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dndifaq
How much will the digital magazines cost?
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are included as part of your subscription. Nonsubscribers will also be able to purchase individual PDF issues of the magazines (pricing TBD).
The threads about whether 15 bucks a month is to much or not. For me it is. I might consider buying individual copies of Dragon, but they'd have to be cheap.
I know I can't get some of my long distance friends to subscribe so we can play, but some of them have paid other prices for virtual tabletops. I see the $15 mark as a line drawn too far to the right to encourage a large community of players.
rooster
Cause you get what you pay for. The magazines go free and they start sucking (or at least won't be as good). Not sure the current sentiment on the magazines but I think they are good as of now (and for those that are "Wait a minute, its free." it won't be for long.) As I have said before in other posts, its not WOTC's fault that the economy sucks and people are having a hard time getting to work. Obviously in a perfect world, money would not be the issue that it is today and we could get everything we wanted. However, thats either never going to happen or is a LONG LONG ways off.
Its also been stated that the magazines will be available outside of the normal DDI subscription. However that price point has not been determined as of yet. So for those that want the magazines don't have to pay for the whole thing anyways.
It seems almost pointless to even try to explain the severe disappointment felt by those of of us who feel that way but I will try again, with the information at hand.
1. Textbooks = $150 per book (average, maybe a bit low now considering fuel)
2. Dragon and Dungeon Subscription (I'll say $120 per year in print not sure)
3. E-textbook = $60
4. E-mags say $5 per issue download (I know Price has not been determined yet.)
Savings (Text)
$90 that's a savings of 60%
Savings (E-mags)
Separately:
E-Dragon $5 x 12 = $60
Dragon subscription in print = $60 (I believe that is correct last I knew)
Savings
$0 or 0%
Now if both
$120 - $60
Savings
$60 or 50%
Now considering there are considerable cost reductions in the e-publishing of materials (printing, shipping, markup, etc.) Getting maybe only a 50% reduction in cover cost does not seem worth it.
Now for those who insulted those of us with weight issues... You have no idea what all may or may not be involved in the weight. To make the blanket ASSUMPTION that was made brings to mind an old saying... ASSUME and you make an... (insert spaces in the word and you'll get it if you did not LONG before now.) See there I may have implied something, but I did not assume. ;)
Now in this current environment of $4 plus fuel, the savings should be for both the company and the customer as far as the costs. (No need for dock workers to load the magazines, no need for trucks to run across the country, unloading the product etc.)
Now before you start into "but the writer's need to be paid..." refrain. They were getting paid before the move to the e-format. Now true with an increase in fuel... but considering that most writers (that I know) write at home and submit their work, there is little to no travel to the office.
Oh, but wait, if you want only high quality stuff written by S. King each month... but wait no... even well known authors while maybe paid a bit more for their work still even such novels are usually no more than the rest. That is where the company makes a bit of sacrifice in the short run (keeping prices within what customers WILL PAY, $5.95 for a novel,) for the long run profits. In other words they will sacrifice the immediate profits, paying the asking or going contract rate for the writer, for the long term benefits.
Anyway my continuing coppers in the well...
One thing that I think is going to affect the price of the magazines is that it appears based on what has been seen so far that there will be no advertising. That would affect the price significantly. Where I might perfer to deal with ads to save some money I know I would get fed up if I had to watch a 10 second clip before I could open the pdf.
$5 for Dungeon Magazine + each article individually
$5 for Dragon Magazine + each article individually
$5 for DnDInsider Tools
A lot of the complaints about the price would go away.
If they allowed you purchase components individually like this:
A lot of the complaints about the price would go away.
Hmm I suspect there still would be complaints about players and DMs paying the same price. A player does not need DM tools or view.
A price perhaps like
Dragon 7.00
Dungeon 7.00
Player 4.00
DM 8.00
Might produce the same revenue steam, had to know of course.
The player only needs two components but might buy second mag (income steam from players 11.00 to 18.00 (I do not see any pure player purchasing DM tools).
DM 26.00
Infer 4 players to one DM
Game cost now 15*5=75
DM cost under my proposal
2 players with one mag 11.00*2=22
2 players with two mags 18.00*2=36.00
1 DM 26.00
Total cost 22.00+36.00+26.00=84.00
or
4 players with one mag 11.00*4=44
1 DM 26.00
Total cost 44.00+26.00=70.00
Average of 84.00 and 70.00 = 77.00 a little higher then the 75.00 target but there should be some cost savings as well with less demand of some resources. The higher price could make up for 5 or more players. The system will allow 10 to 15 seats. I just do not believe there will be that many larger games.
Hmm I suspect there still would be complaints about players and DMs paying the same price. A player does not need DM tools or view.
A price perhaps like
Dragon 7.00
Dungeon 7.00
Player 4.00
DM 8.00
If they did the above with a "full" option of $15 per month still, it'd be a nice system.
If they did the above with a "full" option of $15 per month still, it'd be a nice system.
Glad you like it, however I did detect a flaw, Some DMs and players might not purchase either mag. I do not know how much they (WotC) need to generate a profit with a just player and DM option.
Compendiums only goes with full subscription perhaps?
It clearly has been stated selling parts will cost more to those that want all parts, because some not purchasing a part reduces income stream.
All in all the idea of part pricing appears unlikely.
I'm sticking with 3.5 for numerous reasons.
WoTC being as moneyhungry as they are is one of them, I'm taking my buisness elsewhere.
Amazon anyone?
Right, none of the other companies are after money.
Right, none of the other companies are after money.
I think the difference between those companies and WotC is that when those other companies do a new version they don't try to recreate every damn book that goes with it.
WotC COULD have done what they're doing with 3.5, but they chose instead to reproduce new versions of over $200 worth of book material (not all at once, to their credit, but still):
Yes other companies are trying to make profit on the games they sale, but you don't have to start with 3 books, and then work your way up to as many as 7 to play the most effectively and most efficiently. Not to mention that v4.5 is probably just around the corner if you trust the history of common sense regarding WotC so we can go through this all over again. Then, 5th edition, and maybe 5.5, followed by v6 sometime before 2025.
Heck, even with something like Star Wars Saga Edition RPG you really only need 2 books, and the DM might need 4.
I think the difference between those companies and WotC is that when those other companies do a new version they don't try to recreate every damn book that goes with it.
WotC COULD have done what they're doing with 3.5, but they chose instead to reproduce new versions of over $200 worth of book material (not all at once, to their credit, but still):
Yes other companies are trying to make profit on the games they sale, but you don't have to start with 3 books, and then work your way up to as many as 7 to play the most effectively and most efficiently. Not to mention that v4.5 is probably just around the corner if you trust the history of common sense regarding WotC so we can go through this all over again. Then, 5th edition, and maybe 5.5, followed by v6 sometime before 2025.
Heck, even with something like Star Wars Saga Edition RPG you really only need 2 books, and the DM might need 4.
My bad, I forgot you have the monopoly on common sense.
If they did the above with a "full" option of $15 per month still, it'd be a nice system.
I don't mind the all inclusive option (even if I don't end up using all of the components), I just think the price is too high to justify it and to encourage more people to join up and thus be available for online play.
rooster
Glad you like it, however I did detect a flaw, Some DMs and players might not purchase either mag. I do not know how much they (WotC) need to generate a profit with a just player and DM option.
Compendiums only goes with full subscription perhaps?
It clearly has been stated selling parts will cost more to those that want all parts, because some not purchasing a part reduces income stream.
All in all the idea of part pricing appears unlikely.
Hmm. I just had a thought. If they intend to add Dungeon and Dragon article stuff to the compendium, that might be a reason why they don't want to separate the magazine subscriptions from the service.
Which, I think is silly. Because while it might devalue the magazines a bit on rules, the compendium will never give the flavor of the articles.
The items, for example, form the Wolves of Maldeen article wouldn't really excite me without the context of the article itself.
My bad, I forgot you have the monopoly on common sense.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean or what it has to do with the discussion.
It sounds like a typical "you make a good point but I refuse to admit it and I don't have anything to add so I will just insult you" kind of statement.
rooster
$15 eh?
So about 7.50 in GBP. :D
Ahhh, sometimes living in the British Isles has its benefits.
---
Looking at the prices for most MMORPGs, I think $15 is actually pretty reasonable for 2 monthly magazines, the D&Di Tools and whatever else gets thrown into the mix.
Me and my gang are paying. :P
Ahohohohohohoho,
$15 eh?
So about 7.50 in GBP. :D
Ahhh, sometimes living in the British Isles has its benefits.
---
Looking at the prices for most MMORPGs, I think $15 is actually pretty reasonable for 2 monthly magazines, the D&Di Tools and whatever else gets thrown into the mix.
Me and my gang are paying. :P
I was thinking more like 3-5 GBP actually. I find it hard to justify some of the cost given what I know I was paying to subscribe in the past to both Dragon and Dungeon.
rooster
I really wish they would lower it to $10 a month though, so my players would get DDI too, but they aren't going to lower it, so my players won't subscribe, and DDI will be nearly useless to me.
Even though it hurts my very small pocket book (yay for a teachers salary), I will be buying the service.
I really wish they would lower it to $10 a month though, so my players would get DDI too, but they aren't going to lower it, so my players won't subscribe, and DDI will be nearly useless to me.
Don't forget that a subscription to DDI will incude a (yet undisclosed) number of 24-hour guest passes.
We've also been told that there are plans to enable the purchase of guest passes on an as-needed basis (price not yet disclosed).
So it won't be useless, even if you're the only regular subscriber.
Also - the price DOES drop to $10/month if you buy the year package. Its understandable that your group might want to sample a few sessions before investing in a full year, of course.
rooster
My friends and family were bored with WoW so we picked up D&D. You can only run Kara or do the same dailys so many times before you look to alternatives. D&D was great because it would get us all together. However, more recently with gas going up we started to falter on our Sunday sessions. Instead of each of us spending $60-100 a month in gas just to see one another over the 30-120 mile drive, DDI can have our $10-*signs blank check*. With all that extra money saved my children can eat again :D .
What is Kara? I just started playing WoW, and have heard the term but don't know what it is.
Sorry to go OT.
Also, the gas issue hit us too, as I drive an hour 1-way to play. So, my neighbor and I, who I discovered has a history with RPG, got together to form a group locally, and have invited some of the people from my "regular" group to make the drive to our town instead.
What is Kara? I just started playing WoW, and have heard the term but don't know what it is.
Sorry to go OT.
Maybe he means Mara (i.e. Maradon?)
But coming from where it comes from, better take it with a grain of salt. I'll wait and see.
What is Kara? I just started playing WoW, and have heard the term but don't know what it is.
Lol, np. Kara is short for Karazhan(http://www.wowwiki.com/Kara). It is a level 70 ten man raid instance.
There are multiple free play-over-the-internet tools that are much more functional (although not 3D). For those of you talking about meeting your friends to play with who you can't meet physically... go investigate these options before you shell over the money.
And so far, the magazine portion has been poorly-edited and spotty for the crunchy bits and... lackluster for the article bits.
The people who are going to pay no matter what because they have the disposable income and don't care are going to pay no matter what, so the argument is moot there. But for people who are making cost-comparisons and real decisions about where they want to spend a limited entertainment budget, I think these issues need to be addressed.
And so far, the magazine portion has been poorly-edited and spotty for the crunchy bits and... lackluster for the article bits.
Really?
I mean, yeah, they haven't been as careful about the crunchy bits as Chris Youngs promised they would be, but I thought its been pretty good. Better than the last couple of years of the Dragon print run (That magazine was great until a few years ago, then I really got an impression that they stopped trying as hard. I've actually been fairly happy with what I've seen in the 4e magazine so far, except for the fact that they are exclusively in digital format).
Really?
I mean, yeah, they haven't been as careful about the crunchy bits as Chris Youngs promised they would be, but I thought its been pretty good. Better than the last couple of years of the Dragon print run (That magazine was great until a few years ago, then I really got an impression that they stopped trying as hard. I've actually been fairly happy with what I've seen in the 4e magazine so far, except for the fact that they are exclusively in digital format).
The recent FR preview is as poorly edited as the Class Acts: Wizard one. It makes it look like these things aren't even being -looked at- by anyone who has knowledge of the system, design, formatting, rules, standards, etc. And its an impression that I get across the board, that people in the office are just writing up random bits or pulling stuff from their personal campaigns and that its not really being given any more care than that.
Which isn't to say the stuff is worthless. The people they have working for them are creative and many of their campaign ideas are great. Sometimes the rules material is clever. But the catch is that I'm not just looking for a column of random insider brainstorming. I'm looking for stuff (if I'm going to pay) that's gone through the whole design and polish process. That's what's worth the money to me. Not the stamp of officialness by itself (I don't play RPGA so I don't care), not the 'names' behind it (being associated with the company doesn't make these people any better at doing D&D than many non-professional gamers I've met), but a product that really looks like a fully-formed WotC supplement, a professional result.
As a pay product its not cutting it so far. Obviously, though, that's a personal value judgment and its going to vary person to person.
For me the cost is offset by the fact that it is an easy way for me to keep in contact with my friends who will soon be scattering into the four winds. Now to be fair it is a bit expensive for me, but I am willing to bite the bullet on this one.
You realize you can do this RIGHT NOW, for FREE, without relying on Wizards at all, right? There are multiple platforms for online tabletop play, some that you have to pay for, some that are free. As far as I can tell, the only advantage of the Wizards one will be compatibility with their map maker (which looks like a fairly crappy tile editor, something you can also get for free online) and the fact that it will be 3D. Except that the 3D looks kind of dinky and it sounds like they might charge you for additional 3D figures. Whereas for most non-wizards programs you can just make tokens for free on your own from any image file.
I'm really beginning to wonder how people have -missed- the whole... digital age they're living in. They act like DDI is the great salvation that will let them play with their far-off friends, but that salvation has been around for years.
Bottom line - pay Wizards the $15 if the -quality- of the products deserves it, in your estimation. Don't pay because you think you have to or because you think its the only solution to digital gaming.
meh, now that Diablo III is out there isn't any reason to play 4e.
Either 'now' or 'out' doesn't mean what you think they do.
You're not going to see it on the shelves before Christmas season 2010.
I do not play online games though I HAVE played them. With an online game you are paying for the environment that goes along with it. Plus all the items you can receive, etc. etc. etc.
With DDI you are not getting all this. I think it is WORTHY of getting my money, but I would rather see it on the $8 level, like XBOX live.
rooster
\
You realize you can do this RIGHT NOW, for FREE, without relying on Wizards at all, right? There are multiple platforms for online tabletop play, some that you have to pay for, some that are free. As far as I can tell, the only advantage of the Wizards one will be compatibility with their map maker (which looks like a fairly crappy tile editor, something you can also get for free online) and the fact that it will be 3D. Except that the 3D looks kind of dinky and it sounds like they might charge you for additional 3D figures. Whereas for most non-wizards programs you can just make tokens for free on your own from any image file.
I'm really beginning to wonder how people have -missed- the whole... digital age they're living in. They act like DDI is the great salvation that will let them play with their far-off friends, but that salvation has been around for years.
Bottom line - pay Wizards the $15 if the -quality- of the products deserves it, in your estimation. Don't pay because you think you have to or because you think its the only solution to digital gaming.
First of all don't get defensive towards me because I said that the product was worth the price to me. I have a sub to Fantasy Grounds and have done OpenRPG and I will say that while those products are ok the DDI service will be supporting 4th edition in a way that neither of those can.
I will be paying for the sub because the dragon magazine has been delivering great content the last two months (I'm not to impressed with dungeon yet, but we'll see) and the online features will allow my group to play 4th edition D&D over the internet without any hoop jumping involved and I think that is worth it to us. If it's not to you then that's fine, but I don't see any reason to start making baseless assumptions about people.
The recent FR preview is as poorly edited as the Class Acts: Wizard one. It makes it look like these things aren't even being -looked at- by anyone who has knowledge of the system, design, formatting, rules, standards, etc. And its an impression that I get across the board, that people in the office are just writing up random bits or pulling stuff from their personal campaigns and that its not really being given any more care than that.
FR preview? Are you talking about "Backdrop: Cormyr", or the FR Preview with the first three levels of mageblade and the genasi stats? Because the latter wasn't a Dragon article, and my main issue with the Cormyr article is that the art looks like it was done by a kid in high school (though I honestly haven't had a chance to really do the math on the paragon paths in there, yet.. so if that's your issue, I'll reserve comment).
And as for the Class Acts: Wizard. I'm not really sure what big deal is. There were some mistakes in the original release, but they fixed it in the compiled issue...
Glad you like it, however I did detect a flaw, Some DMs and players might not purchase either mag. I do not know how much they (WotC) need to generate a profit with a just player and DM option.
Compendiums only goes with full subscription perhaps?
It clearly has been stated selling parts will cost more to those that want all parts, because some not purchasing a part reduces income stream.
All in all the idea of part pricing appears unlikely.
Thats assuming that anyone would actually pay money to use the Compendium ;)
Thats assuming that anyone would actually pay money to use the Compendium ;)
Who Wouldnt shell out 15 dollars a month for error-filled articles like the Character concept one ;)
I'm a parent, and I play with my wife and two oldest children. To use every tool, are we looking at four subscriptions, or only one? Will I, as DM with a subscription and three "home-site" players without, be hampered playing with two remote players who have subscriptions to round out our group to a total of six? I'm more than willing to pay out $15, but $60? No way.
My concern is "Who will need it?"
I'm a parent, and I play with my wife and two oldest children. To use every tool, are we looking at four subscriptions, or only one? Will I, as DM with a subscription and three "home-site" players without, be hampered playing with two remote players who have subscriptions to round out our group to a total of six? I'm more than willing to pay out $15, but $60? No way.
If your concern is the Game Table, we've been told that with a single login (the DM's login) you can control (move) both players and NPCs/Monsters.
In fact, if you're just playing at home, and you have two monitors (or a laptop and external monitor) you can display the DM screen on one monitor, and a player screen on the other (so the DM can see that pit trap and the secret door, but they player's don't until the DM wants them to).
Furthermore, if you want to play with someone outside your household who isn't a D&Di subscriber, you'll have a (yet undisclosed) number of "guest passes" - each good for 24 hours of access to the features of D&Di.
So, a single subscription of $15 should be sufficient for "in-home" play with a few "out-of-home" temporary passes per month.
As always - this is based on the most recent information. Anything and everything could change when D&Di is fully available.
Time will tell,
rooster
I also agree on the analogy between Xbox Live and DDI. DDI is not comparable to an MMO. It is just a set of online tools to help run a D&D game, the rulebooks of which must be bought separately anyway. Plus, players of this game are already going to be paying a high price due to how WotC is currently marketing the D&D franchise (two separate core PHBs, two separate core books for FR, etc, not to mention higher bookshelf prices).
DDI 15 monthly = used (for my group) no more than 4 hours a week.
Though the price for both is the same, in WoW you can game solo if your group cant get on. In DnD that is pretty much impossible unless you love playing with yourself. For my group we game 3 times a month for 4 hour sessions each. We simply arent getting the use out of the same 15 dollars some of us would get out of a WoW subscription (I dont play WoW but some of my players do). Now had it been 15 dollars a month for just the DM access and free for players (simply talking about the 3d gametable) I would pay that in a heartbeat, that would equal 3.75 per person in my group.
I think they need to separate the products they are offering, the main problem to me is that there are things I may of may not use and thus I feel cheated out of my value per dollar. If I had at least the option to opt in for some of the services and products that I desired it would make it much more compelling for me and my group. For example, I would most likely get dungeon and dragon every once in a while but my players will never bother, thus their 15 dollars are not getting them the same value as it would be getting me.
There's not much point in debating whether the $15/month, or $180/year, is a lot of money or not. I don't know anyone over the age of 16 who would think that's a lot of money, but if you do then you have my sympathy.
unfortunately some of us are under 16 and it is a lot of money for us.
Fact: D&Di does NOT offer as much as mmorpgs, not even the free ones. It only offers about as much as most currently available online D&D tools.
Fact: D&Di is just as expensive, if not a little moreso in some cases, as those mmorpgs. Most of the previously mentioned currently available online D&D tools are far cheaper, or usually free altogether.
Opinion: D&Di does not possess enough of the proper content to justify the stated expense.
Opinion: D&Di is worth the expenditure because it's provided officially by WotC ensuring proper interaction with the D&D game...or whatever reason one might think it's a justified expenditure.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Whichever way you go, there you are.
I happen to think it's not worth it, interesting as it might be.
All I know is that 15 bucks a month for this service is silly. I can only hope that capitalism doesn't fail us and evens things out, or maybe put some sight into whoever thought of this.
*shrug*
World of Warcraft 15 monthly = used several hours every other day.
DDI 15 monthly = used (for my group) no more than 4 hours a week.
Though the price for both is the same, in WoW you can game solo if your group cant get on. In DnD that is pretty much impossible unless you love playing with yourself. For my group we game 3 times a month for 4 hour sessions each. We simply arent getting the use out of the same 15 dollars some of us would get out of a WoW subscription (I dont play WoW but some of my players do). Now had it been 15 dollars a month for just the DM access and free for players (simply talking about the 3d gametable) I would pay that in a heartbeat, that would equal 3.75 per person in my group.
I think they need to separate the products they are offering, the main problem to me is that there are things I may of may not use and thus I feel cheated out of my value per dollar. If I had at least the option to opt in for some of the services and products that I desired it would make it much more compelling for me and my group. For example, I would most likely get dungeon and dragon every once in a while but my players will never bother, thus their 15 dollars are not getting them the same value as it would be getting me.
Having played WoW, its very obvious where that $15 a month is going, too. It's to cover the cost of a handful of massive servers and keep the program running smoothly for millions of people simultaneously.
Is DDI really going to be operating at that level? I can't possibly imagine that it will.
But I agree with the XBox Live comment. I shouldn't have to pay more for DDi than XBox live considering my head isn't in HD.
I immediately bought 4th when it came out. I loved reading the designer blogs, and I was really looking forward to seeing the new edition. I've run a game since a week after it's release and frankly I'm not impressed enough with what the DDi will offer to sink a constant stream of money into it.
If it was closer to what I imagined "Between and MMO and Magazine subscription" to mean, five dollars to maybe nine-ish, I would consider it, but truth be told I can't help but feel a bit deceived by the pricing (Regardless of it being logical to feel such). As it stands my extra income will be going to other interests. As a person who works at my flgs and who spends many hours off the clock there I'd really like to be able to put my support behind the companies that provide the goods I sell, but this is something I can't support them in. I just don't see the value.
I really think that if D&D INSIDER Flops, Hasbro is going to sink WOTC (I hope they don't).
They will not have near the # of subscribers as WoW, and if they are basing their market on what WoW can do (I doubt they are), then they are shooting themselves in the foot.
My fiance plays WoW 6 hours a day. I would use D&DI to read articles, and then play 2-3 times a week.
Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.
Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.
Let's move on to the product itself, DDI. Let me mention something that everyone seems to be forgetting.According to WotC, DDI will be updated with the monthly release of every new book. New races get added to the Visualizer, new mini's, new classes for the generator, a ton of info would get uploaded to the Compendium etc. Every. Single. Month. It's not static, it will continue to grow.
1. D&D Character Visualizer- Any decent gamer knows about the struggle to find a good visual representation of their character, or a DM for a villian. In the past, folks just use Heroforge [costs money] or Google Image to pull up something that vaguely resembles what they want. With this, you can instantly create an exact visual representation of any DnD character class/race. A very handly tool, although not necessary, I'd say it's worth, what, a $1 a month? That's 30 months of use and updates, even if you just compare it to the price of Heroforge.
2. D&D Character Builder- An absolute time saver and winner. While there's plenty of PC generators and all that out there for free, they always only include the base stuff. A character builder that is automatically updated with every race/class, etc.? Can't ask for more than that. We have no idea if it will autocalculate even, or what not, which would be even better. I'd say that's worth $1 a month, just for the updates.
3. D&D Game Table- One of the biggest draws of DDI. No more will you have to do Play by e-mail or have to give up on gaming just because you've had to move for whatever reason. If WotC is for real, we will have a voice integrated, 3D [all the other free/pay virtual tabletops are 2D from what I've seen] virtual tabletop. I know, with my gaming group, we have a hard time getting together more than once a week because of this or that, but with the gaming table, everyone can make time to log in for a few hours from home and play, which will increase your play time overall, giving more bang for the buck. Not only that, but it could easily be used in a face to face game as well. Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set. When you consider the voice integration alone, this is worth at least $4 a month, with the perks, like 3D, I'd bump that up to $6/month.
4. D&D Dungeon Builder- Something any decent DM will be lucking forward too. Now you can print your OWN dungeon tiles, quite nice for a variety of purposes. If it's of half decent quality and useability, it should trump what is out there in freeware easily. The fact you can upload the maps to the virtual table top, is the big thing. Should realy be factored into cost of tabletop.
5. D&DI Compendium- Searchable feats, rules, classes, races, etc, automatically updated every month with information from the newest book, wowzer. Now, before you start screaming about what's out there now, keep in mind it's a very poor preview. I imagine they even put the preview out early in an attempt to appease the rabid nay sayers, who knows. Game developers push games back all the time, no big deal. Could it be they are actually working hard to create a quality product, so they are taking their time instead of rushing it and putting out a sub par suite of items? I find it amusing people are griping because they have not shoved it out the door, but those SAME folks would have a fit if they did exactly that, because it wouldn't be good enough. Talk about being hypocritical, but I digress. If it is anywhere near as good as promised, this will be worth a few bucks a month, easily.
6. Dragon, Dragon Magazine- I clump these two together. Dungeon adventures can be the different between game and no game, and many an idea has been garnered from Dragon mags. New feats, adventures, classes, ideas, etc., can't beat that. They were what, 3.20 per issue if you got the subscription in the past? Going digital they are saving money, so they should be cheaper, but, they still have to pay the artists, contributors, etc. What's fair? I've seen people propose all sorts of costs, but I'll go with 4 per month for both, thats 2 bucks apiece, fair pricing I'd say.
By my calculations above, I came to $14/month, and that's not considering the map maker. If you divide it all up and look at it objectively, look at what's out there, and here's the big thing; If it has the updates like WotC has said it will, then there is no doubt you are getting your money's worth. There's plenty of outside companies who charge for different aspects of what DDI offers, but people ignore that. A person could get at least 3 months of DDI for what they'd pay for non-WotC products that do half of what DDI is supposed to do, and are never updated. And no one out there has a 3D virtual tabletop that's any good.
The final word. If you've seen the price and hate it because you can't afford that, fine. But stop acting like the product isn't worth that, because if it does as promised, it is, without doubt, worth every penny.
If I'm not mistaken, and I can be 'cause I didn't read the whole topic, the Character Builder will have the information from the books I've entered theirs unique code, which means only the info from the books you bought. So, unless you're planning in spending something like $50 a month with WoTC stuff (including D$DI), you won't have a very large selection on the builder. Am I right or has this policy changed?
There are no book codes that plan was changed.
Difference now is only between Insider and non Insider.
Insider gets a summery of a rule.
A non Insider gets referred to what book/source rule can be found.
Character Creator, people have mentioned stand-alone programs, i personally like chilling out with paper and pencil, but still, is this upgraded monthly with new features? In which case how much can you change to make it worthwhile when the average player doesn't make a new character monthly?
Dragon and Dungeon magazine: I have a subscription to Popular Science, it's 18 dollars a year (well, 12 now, but i think i get a discount for being with them forever) I want information on how to subscribe to one of the magazines only, and get it PAPER VERSION, as i despise these PDFs as i likely pay 2-3 additional dollars, the cost of buying the mag in a shop, printing them out and putting them in a binder so i actually have something to read........
Rule Compendium: Everyone who plays an MMO has their pet Wiki sites, so someone email me at [email]ixious@gmail.com[/email] a good website that keeps up with the rules in a general way, enough for those of us bored at work, not RPGA accurate, as honestly I will likely glance at the page once or twise a week when I am at work away from my books, but nothing worth any more than i already pay for internet in my home
Online Board, DM Kit, all those tools: Looks great, situational though, some DMs would give an arm and a leg, not how I play, not what I need, it is a choice and evaluation of my personal needs, this right here could be worth the whole 15/month for some people's situations, and I respect that, but it isnt me.
So, bottom line of this rant, for a person who plays D&D to the extent that I do, and under the conditions I do this great leap into the world of cyberspace is a leap i care not to join, BUT there is only 1 feature that I want from this DDI package.....
A PAPER subscription to Dragon, how do I do this?
Why people rise up and rant and rave about something they have no idea about, I'll never understand. Let's look at this- consider it -instead of simply exploding because of seeing a $15 monthly fee. Here we go.
Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.
Just because you break something down into a daily cost does not reduce the overall impact of that cost.
Just because I can find it does not mean I have to spend it on the DDI.
While those may be nice marketing catchphrases, they do not in any way establish a legitimate value for the product.
Add in the mockery of people who may not feel the product is worth that amount by suggesting they are pretending to be poor moves into guaranteeing some people will not even bother.
Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.
They are both monthly subscription services. Why should people not make a comparison?
You want to compare the cost of the DDI to how much people spend on snackfood every day. That is an absurd comparison.
Let's move on to the product itself, DDI. Let me mention something that everyone seems to be forgetting.According to WotC, DDI will be updated with the monthly release of every new book. New races get added to the Visualizer, new mini's, new classes for the generator, a ton of info would get uploaded to the Compendium etc. Every. Single. Month. It's not static, it will continue to grow.
According to WotC, DDI would be live the same day the books were released.
I am sure that I am not alone in believing that WotC will produce according to their promises for the DDI when we actually see it, not when they release more ad copy.
1. D&D Character Visualizer- Any decent gamer knows about the struggle to find a good visual representation of their character, or a DM for a villian. In the past, folks just use Heroforge [costs money] or Google Image to pull up something that vaguely resembles what they want. With this, you can instantly create an exact visual representation of any DnD character class/race. A very handly tool, although not necessary, I'd say it's worth, what, a $1 a month? That's 30 months of use and updates, even if you just compare it to the price of Heroforge.
What struggle?
In most groups I have been with we just turned to the guy who liked to draw, described our character, waited 5 minutes, looked at the sketch, and drooled "Awesome!"
Oh right, I almost missed it. That is any "decent" gamer. Apparently any gamer who relies solely on their imagination, or having a highly competent artist in their group is some sort of substandard gamer. Your negative advertising really rocks in convincing me to get on board with the DDI.
Looking more closely, you seem to be a bit confused about what constitutes an "exact visual representation". Unless this comes with some instant artist updates for any of a massive range of tweaks that every individual gamer can imagine for their particular character, it will manage at best a generic image with a few options.
How much would I pay for that? Nothing, I will just keep using my imagination or pestering my artist friends.
2. D&D Character Builder- An absolute time saver and winner. While there's plenty of PC generators and all that out there for free, they always only include the base stuff. A character builder that is automatically updated with every race/class, etc.? Can't ask for more than that. We have no idea if it will autocalculate even, or what not, which would be even better. I'd say that's worth $1 a month, just for the updates.
I would not. I have found most character builders to be more difficult to use than just a simple blank stat block, an index, and checking the books by hand.
Again, worthless to me.
3. D&D Game Table- One of the biggest draws of DDI. No more will you have to do Play by e-mail or have to give up on gaming just because you've had to move for whatever reason. If WotC is for real, we will have a voice integrated, 3D [all the other free/pay virtual tabletops are 2D from what I've seen] virtual tabletop. I know, with my gaming group, we have a hard time getting together more than once a week because of this or that, but with the gaming table, everyone can make time to log in for a few hours from home and play, which will increase your play time overall, giving more bang for the buck. Not only that, but it could easily be used in a face to face game as well. Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set. When you consider the voice integration alone, this is worth at least $4 a month, with the perks, like 3D, I'd bump that up to $6/month.
Or you can just find a new group wherever you have moved to.
Or you can muddle on through with a 2D tabletop for free.
The first just requires you to find the local FLGS or similar venue and talk to new people. You know, socialize, one of the major superior points of tabletop gaming.
For the online campaign I am currently running, if the application will really that easy to use, which the last WotC chat software was definitely not, I might consider this worth $25 per year.
4. D&D Dungeon Builder- Something any decent DM will be lucking forward too. Now you can print your OWN dungeon tiles, quite nice for a variety of purposes. If it's of half decent quality and useability, it should trump what is out there in freeware easily. The fact you can upload the maps to the virtual table top, is the big thing. Should realy be factored into cost of tabletop.
Or I just spend $10 bucks for the latest Dungeon Tiles release, and ignore paying this yet again.
5. D&DI Compendium- Searchable feats, rules, classes, races, etc, automatically updated every month with information from the newest book, wowzer. Now, before you start screaming about what's out there now, keep in mind it's a very poor preview. I imagine they even put the preview out early in an attempt to appease the rabid nay sayers, who knows. Game developers push games back all the time, no big deal. Could it be they are actually working hard to create a quality product, so they are taking their time instead of rushing it and putting out a sub par suite of items? I find it amusing people are griping because they have not shoved it out the door, but those SAME folks would have a fit if they did exactly that, because it wouldn't be good enough. Talk about being hypocritical, but I digress. If it is anywhere near as good as promised, this will be worth a few bucks a month, easily.
So I should pay for a proper index that should be included in each book I actually purchase from them?
Yeah. Right.
What WotC should do, if they expect to impress me with their commitment to keeping me as a customer, is provide a simple, free constantly updated, searchable index of such things as a simple application or web page. Asking me to pay for it will just convince me they are just looking for a cheap payoff.
6. Dragon, Dragon Magazine- I clump these two together. Dungeon adventures can be the different between game and no game, and many an idea has been garnered from Dragon mags. New feats, adventures, classes, ideas, etc., can't beat that. They were what, 3.20 per issue if you got the subscription in the past? Going digital they are saving money, so they should be cheaper, but, they still have to pay the artists, contributors, etc. What's fair? I've seen people propose all sorts of costs, but I'll go with 4 per month for both, thats 2 bucks apiece, fair pricing I'd say.
For a pdf e-zine I would pay as much as I pay for other pdf e-zines - nothing.
While a lot of people like reading off a computer monitor, a lot of others, myself included, do not. Since I would have to print all of these issues, the cost for ink is well beyond what I would pay for the magazine in the stores, leaving nothing for me to give to WotC. Too bad for them really, as I have subscribed to Dragon since issue 40.
By my calculations above, I came to $14/month, and that's not considering the map maker. If you divide it all up and look at it objectively, look at what's out there, and here's the big thing; If it has the updates like WotC has said it will, then there is no doubt you are getting your money's worth. There's plenty of outside companies who charge for different aspects of what DDI offers, but people ignore that. A person could get at least 3 months of DDI for what they'd pay for non-WotC products that do half of what DDI is supposed to do, and are never updated. And no one out there has a 3D virtual tabletop that's any good.
I come up with $25/year, if the product is really ultra awesome, and if I can be bothered with it. That makes DDI overpriced by a factor of more than 4 for a yearly subscription, and more than 6 for a monthly subscription.
That other companies produce and charge for such thing is irrelevant, as I am not paying them either. (That is another factor you overlook. Just because a product exists, from one company, ten, or a hundred, I do not have to buy it from any of them unless it fills a particular need I have.)
The final word. If you've seen the price and hate it because you can't afford that, fine. But stop acting like the product isn't worth that, because if it does as promised, it is, without doubt, worth every penny.
Repeating a previous word. Mocking potential customers because they cannot afford your product is a very poor marketing strategy. It really convinces me not to bother giving the DDI a chance at all, as WotC obviously intends it only for gamers with excess disposable income. As that is not me, I will just have to go spend what money I do have on products from other companies that are for gamers with just a general entertainment budget.
Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.
Here's a suggestion: You give me three dollars a month. That's 10 cents a day - you surely can afford that, can't you? You even get something in return: I'm gonna tell everybody I know that you're a great guy. Do you feel you get your money's worth yet, or shall I go on with the sales pitch?
You see, I can afford coughing up the monthly fee for WoW, but I choose not to. Doesn't mean I'm cheap, doesn't mean I'm poor, just means that it has nothing to offer me that justifies the expense.
Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different.
To me it seems to be the closest comparison there is. You're comparing subscribing to DDI with buying snacks, so... *shrug*
All I'm saying is that I completely agree with those who feel that DDI isn't worth $10, let alone $15. It has nothing to offer I want, and looking at the company that offers DDI, its history with online ventures, its history of major PR ****-ups, its non-existent customer service, its love for putting out very colorful glossy-paper products with very mediocre content, and its penchant for resting on its three decades old laurels, I'll pass. Given that the RPG market is a niche market and not especially lucrative to begin with, I prefer to give my money to the companies that publish products of which I think there's actually heart's blood, enthusiasm and love for the hobby in them. WotC has enough money as it is, and more than enough people are gonna throw their money at them just because it's WotC. They don't need mine.
DB
Sure, you may have to pay for extra virtual mini's, but I'm sure they'll have a basic set.
I we are paying per month for this, then the minis should be updated as part of that expense.
A PAPER subscription to Dragon, how do I do this?
You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.
Add in the mockery of people who may not feel the product is worth that amount by suggesting they are pretending to be poor moves into guaranteeing some people will not even bother.
I never mocked anyone, nor did I pretend anyone was poor. I stated the truth. If you can't afford 15/month, then you definitely can't afford 30 a month for a new book. If your budget is so tight you can't find this disposable income, then you are not the target audience.
They are both monthly subscription services. Why should people not make a comparison?
There's a lot of subscription services out there. But let's look at it like this, WoW lets you log in and play a game with friends. It has no voice chat, but has 3d representation of an environment. You can play WoW alone, while you cannot do this on DDI. So... how can you justify 15/month for WoW, but not for DDI? Is the solo play worth that much? What about the lack of voice chat? Oh.. not your problem since only the guild leaders absorb that cost, right? They provide comparable things, with the difference you need find a group for DDI, while WoW has the playerbase brought to you. Howver, isn't finding those players part of the "socializing" you were mentioning earlier? I think their different, but if you insist on comparing WoW and DDI, at the base, they could be considered similiar.
You want to compare the cost of the DDI to how much people spend on snackfood every day. That is an absurd comparison.
I in no way compared the cost to what people spend on snack food to DDI. What I did was remark on personal experiences, in how some people waste money on something that provides nothing more than a short term benefit, but then complain about having to pay 1/8th that cost for something that could be used for hours at a time, every day. I'm remarking more on the irony of that, than making a comparison.
According to WotC, DDI would be live the same day the books were released. I am sure that I am not alone in believing that WotC will produce according to their promises for the DDI when we actually see it, not when they release more ad copy.
They pushed back the date, totally understandable, and often done for product releases, it proves nothing. As for you not believing until they produce, what does that matter? You've already decided it's too expensive for those specific services. No matter how good DDI is, you don't feel the cost of those services is justified, so it doesn't matter to you what they produce.
What struggle?
In most groups I have been with we just turned to the guy who liked to draw, described our character, waited 5 minutes, looked at the sketch, and drooled "Awesome!"
I used the wrong word in saying any "decent" gamer, and I did not mean it condescendly, and I apologize. I should have said any "regular" gamer, or something of that sort. I was referring to those of us without art talent.
As for this, it must be nice. I've gamed with no less than fifty people since I started gaming, and not a single one had any true artistic ability. We do have one guy who's quite good at cartography, but not at drawing anything other than maps. Every person has done just as I already mentioned and found some other image and used it as a base to describe their character. You imply that folks that do this are not imaginative enough, something that is simply untrue.
Looking more closely, you seem to be a bit confused about what constitutes an "exact visual representation". Unless this comes with some instant artist updates for any of a massive range of tweaks that every individual gamer can imagine for their particular character, it will manage at best a generic image with a few options.
According to the given information, the visualizer has options for any skin color, race, clothing, weapons, armor, eyes, hair, scars, jewelry, body size, and even BUST size. That's as close to an "exact visual representation" as it gets. Something major happen to your character? You can go in the visualizer, change that, and print out the new look. Why would the tweaks need to be instant? Now I'm sure you may not be able to have a three armed, half drider, half dragon with purple dots, but customization can only go so far. In the scenario above though, anyone should just be able to turn directly to their artist friend who'll draw it right up for them, right?
I would not. I have found most character builders to be more difficult to use than just a simple blank stat block, an index, and checking the books by hand.
You aren't using the right ones. At the end of 3.5 their were like 20, non campaign specific, books you could look through for classes, feats, etc. Unless you just want a basic pre gen type character, building what you really want takes time, looking through everything, etc. With an appropriate character builder, that has the info consolidated, you can take 4 hours of character creation time and break it down into 1 hour. If nothing else, a good character builder saves a lot of time, it's just a simple truth. I'm not saying it's better, but definitely easier.
Or you can just find a new group wherever you have moved to.
Or you can muddle on through with a 2D tabletop for free.
The first just requires you to find the local FLGS or similar venue and talk to new people. You know, socialize, one of the major superior points of tabletop gaming.
For the online campaign I am currently running, if the application will really that easy to use, which the last WotC chat software was definitely not, I might consider this worth $25 per year.
You assume a lot here. If you live in a rural area, or in the bible belt, it is not as easy to find a group as you think. The local FLGS might be 2 hours away. if not more.
You CAN muddle through the 2D tabletop for free, but what you are paying for is a nice 3D representation that has voice chat, two things no one else currently has combined, that's why are paying! $25 a year won't even pay for a teamspeak server, which is $48 a year, by itself.
Or I just spend $10 bucks for the latest Dungeon Tiles release, and ignore paying this yet again.
This is the statement that amused me the most. You would pay $10/month for a small set of dungeon tiles, but you won't pay $15/month to be able to create and make your own dungeon tiles, and get all the other things in DDI?
What is there to say really? Come on!
What WotC should do, if they expect to impress me with their commitment to keeping me as a customer, is provide a simple, free constantly updated, searchable index of such things as a simple application or web page. Asking me to pay for it will just convince me they are just looking for a cheap payoff.
So you are suggesting they put their books out for free? DDI compendium will be searchable for free. You get a reference book and page number. There they've done exactly as you asked. Paying gives you a breakdown of the actual search. Basically people with DDI will get searchable parts of new books included in the cost of the $15 a month, nice if you ask me. How is this unfair?
For a pdf e-zine I would pay as much as I pay for other pdf e-zines -nothing. While a lot of people like reading off a computer monitor, a lot of others, myself included, do not. Since I would have to print all of these issues, the cost for ink is well beyond what I would pay for the magazine in the stores, leaving nothing for me to give to WotC. Too bad for them really, as I have subscribed to Dragon since issue 40.
If the only differnce between the pdf and paper version of the magazines is format, then you are merely nit picking, because you know the quality is there. You don't have to pay to print the entire pdf. You can scan over the stuff, find the articles you like, only read/print those out. Don't like reading on a monitor, print it out and read it in paper version. By themselves, no they are not worth it, but as part of the entire package, they are.
I come up with $25/year, if the product is really ultra awesome, and if I can be bothered with it. That makes DDI overpriced by a factor of more than 4 for a yearly subscription, and more than 6 for a monthly subscription.
Not much to say here, I've already proven you have to pay $48/year for the luxury of using a basic teamspeak server and nothing more. As you include options, the price rises, that's economics.
Repeating a previous word. Mocking potential customers because they cannot afford your product is a very poor marketing strategy. It really convinces me not to bother giving the DDI a chance at all, as WotC obviously intends it only for gamers with excess disposable income. As that is not me, I will just have to go spend what money I do have on products from other companies that are for gamers with just a general entertainment budget.
I really don't see how you feel I'm mocking anyone. In fact, I remarked if you can't afford it, fine. That is what I mean. But, stop slamming a product that may be worth the price, just because that price may be beyond your means. This is akin to someone saying a movie sucks, just because they cannot afford to pay the cost of admission to see the movie. You aren't blasting it because of how good/bad the movie is, it's the price alone, and that's not right.
I'm in no way associated with WotC, so I don't understand why you take my word as their word on these things. But personally, if you go to another company, then that's your preference. I've tried tons and tons of indy games, and I none are as good as DnD to me. Regardless, WotC is not FORCING anyone to get DDI, so I don't understand why it would make you want to switch games anyhow. I've seen gamer after gamer over the years BEG for a service just like this from WotC, and now it's offered, but not free, everyone is up in arms. It's all ironical, hypocritical, and typical of the want something for free philosophy carried around by our current society.
Here's a suggestion: You give me three dollars a month. That's 10 cents a day - you surely can afford that, can't you? You even get something in return: I'm gonna tell everybody I know that you're a great guy. Do you feel you get your money's worth yet, or shall I go on with the sales pitch?
You see, I can afford coughing up the monthly fee for WoW, but I choose not to. Doesn't mean I'm cheap, doesn't mean I'm poor, just means that it has nothing to offer me that justifies the expense.
This is irrelevant, paying for a service like this has nothing to do with just handing someone money for nothing. As I've pointed out as well, just because you feel the cost isn't justified, doesn't mean that it is NOT. People are saying it's not worth this, or they can't afford that. If they do as promised, and you look at the market, and similiar products, it's a no brainer it's worth it.
I we are paying per month for this, then the minis should be updated as part of that expense.
There's already something like this in Legends of Norrath, you get a booster pack, but all the other virtual cards are not free. It costs money to develop and make these minis, In fact, the minis and table top will cost far more than the rest, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they are trying to recoup their costs the most. Nothing is free.
I've tried to respond to everyone, my apologies if I missed someone. I'll just end with this. Who here knows the exact startup cost of DDI? Who knows how much it will cost WotC to keep it running and constantly updated? Anyone? They are trying to deliver a product that people have asked for and asked for, and they are trying to make a little money so they can continue their business, and people go rabid about that. They are a business, and are operating as a business does, if they didn't, DnD wouldn't exist right now. You act like they are out to shaft you all, but really, do you think all those writers and such are really out to get us? Most of the people at WotC are nerds just like us, lucky enough to get paid to play.
I never mocked anyone, nor did I pretend anyone was poor. I stated the truth. If you can't afford 15/month, then you definitely can't afford 30 a month for a new book. If your budget is so tight you can't find this disposable income, then you are not the target audience.
As I and other noted, just because we can afford something does not mean we have to buy it. Your dismissal of people who reject an overpriced service as being too poor is mockery, and very good at driving people away.
There's a lot of subscription services out there. But let's look at it like this, WoW lets you log in and play a game with friends. It has no voice chat, but has 3d representation of an environment. You can play WoW alone, while you cannot do this on DDI. So... how can you justify 15/month for WoW, but not for DDI?
If I had to, I would justify it by noting that WoW exists and DDI does not.
However, I do not have to justify it. I do not subscribe to WoW because I find the cost too high for the product, just like DDI.
I in no way compared the cost to what people spend on snack food to DDI. What I did was remark on personal experiences, in how some people waste money on something that provides nothing more than a short term benefit, but then complain about having to pay 1/8th that cost for something that could be used for hours at a time, every day. I'm remarking more on the irony of that, than making a comparison.
If you place two things side by side like that it is a comparison, whether you find it ironic or not. And it is in fact not ironic, as people must eat, they do not have to use the DDI to play.
They pushed back the date, totally understandable, and often done for product releases, it proves nothing. As for you not believing until they produce, what does that matter? You've already decided it's too expensive for those specific services. No matter how good DDI is, you don't feel the cost of those services is justified, so it doesn't matter to you what they produce.
One of the reasons for believing it is overpriced is the failure to meet deadlines.
And, despite your casual acceptance of it, the release dates for products are not often done in RPG publishing, particularly for a company like WotC. Indeed they specifically do not announce products until they know they have them ready. That they had such a failure with an electronic product is very telling.
I used the wrong word in saying any "decent" gamer, and I did not mean it condescendly, and I apologize. I should have said any "regular" gamer, or something of that sort. I was referring to those of us without art talent.
As for this, it must be nice. I've gamed with no less than fifty people since I started gaming, and not a single one had any true artistic ability. We do have one guy who's quite good at cartography, but not at drawing anything other than maps. Every person has done just as I already mentioned and found some other image and used it as a base to describe their character. You imply that folks that do this are not imaginative enough, something that is simply untrue.
Actually, no, I do not imply that anyone is not imaginative enough.
You do by suggesting that they need an artist or something like DDI character program.
So now you accept they may be decent gamers, but they just have to have an external visual image for their character.
According to the given information,
Right. According to the given information. Not according to functional evidence.
You aren't using the right ones. At the end of 3.5 their were like 20, non campaign specific, books you could look through for classes, feats, etc. Unless you just want a basic pre gen type character, building what you really want takes time, looking through everything, etc. With an appropriate character builder, that has the info consolidated, you can take 4 hours of character creation time and break it down into 1 hour. If nothing else, a good character builder saves a lot of time, it's just a simple truth. I'm not saying it's better, but definitely easier.
Yeah?
And?
I had a template, the indexes, and the books.
The only thing that ever took time was carefully selecting equipment. The rest was always more time in actually typing in numbers than looking anything up.
So no, it is not a simple truth. It is easier for you, that is all you can attest to.
You assume a lot here. If you live in a rural area, or in the bible belt, it is not as easy to find a group as you think. The local FLGS might be 2 hours away. if not more.
And yet I know so many people who live in rural areas, in the bible belt, who have thriving groups.
You CAN muddle through the 2D tabletop for free, but what you are paying for is a nice 3D representation that has voice chat, two things no one else currently has combined, that's why are paying! $25 a year won't even pay for a teamspeak server, which is $48 a year, by itself.
Or you get Skype for free and everyone saves the cash to buy an extra book that year instead of getting all warm and fuzzy over a virtual 3D image.
This is the statement that amused me the most. You would pay $10/month for a small set of dungeon tiles, but you won't pay $15/month to be able to create and make your own dungeon tiles, and get all the other things in DDI?
What is there to say really? Come on!
No, I would not pay $10/month for a set of dungeon tiles, small or large.
I would, and have, paid $10/once for a small set of dungeon tiles with a theoretical lifespan of until I stop gaming.
Amortized over 20 years, I can get 7 sets for less than a penny a day! (Since you like daily costs.)
So you are suggesting they put their books out for free? DDI compendium will be searchable for free. You get a reference book and page number. There they've done exactly as you asked. Paying gives you a breakdown of the actual search. Basically people with DDI will get searchable parts of new books included in the cost of the $15 a month, nice if you ask me. How is this unfair?
The books, no.
The indexes, definitely yes.
As for fair or unfair, that is irrelevant. It is simply not worth the cost.
If the only differnce between the pdf and paper version of the magazines is format, then you are merely nit picking, because you know the quality is there.
No nits, picked or otherwise, are involved in the differences between a book to hold and a pdf to have to print out.
As for the quality, I do not know that is there. More than enough threads on the errors in the e-zines exist to testify to that.
Not much to say here, I've already proven you have to pay $48/year for the luxury of using a basic teamspeak server and nothing more. As you include options, the price rises, that's economics.
You have proven incorrectly. Yet again, a service like Skype is free. Likewise playing after 9 PM when everone has free minutes and can just conference call.
I really don't see how you feel I'm mocking anyone. In fact, I remarked if you can't afford it, fine. That is what I mean. But, stop slamming a product that may be worth the price, just because that price may be beyond your means. This is akin to someone saying a movie sucks, just because they cannot afford to pay the cost of admission to see the movie. You aren't blasting it because of how good/bad the movie is, it's the price alone, and that's not right.
You are assuming that price is the only relevant factor. It is not. There are these things called "quality" and "value" that are relevant as well. Both of those are, so far, totally missing from the DDI.
I'm in no way associated with WotC, so I don't understand why you take my word as their word on these things.
Then why post so assertively?
If you are not associated with WotC, what do you care if people think the price of the DDI is too high?
But personally, if you go to another company, then that's your preference. I've tried tons and tons of indy games, and I none are as good as DnD to me. Regardless, WotC is not FORCING anyone to get DDI, so I don't understand why it would make you want to switch games anyhow.
Who said I was switching games?
I will still play D&D.
That no longer requires WotC.
I've seen gamer after gamer over the years BEG for a service just like this from WotC, and now it's offered, but not free, everyone is up in arms. It's all ironical, hypocritical, and typical of the want something for free philosophy carried around by our current society.
Just because someone else begged for something in no way obligates me to pay for it, particularly not at the inflated price said begging person is offering.
Even A-Rod was willing to take a pay cut to keep playing for the Yankees.
This is irrelevant, paying for a service like this has nothing to do with just handing someone money for nothing. As I've pointed out as well, just because you feel the cost isn't justified, doesn't mean that it is NOT. People are saying it's not worth this, or they can't afford that. If they do as promised, and you look at the market, and similiar products, it's a no brainer it's worth it.
And just because you feel the cost is justified does not mean that it is.
And people have looked at the market and similar products, and concluded that it is a no brainer that the DDI is overpriced.
Nothing is free.
Particularly not my patronage. If there is no value, I will not offer up my money.
I've tried to respond to everyone, my apologies if I missed someone. I'll just end with this. Who here knows the exact startup cost of DDI? Who knows how much it will cost WotC to keep it running and constantly updated? Anyone?
How much is that my responsibility? Anyone?
Zero!
Yet again, I have no obligation to buy any individual or collective product from WotC. I have passed on multiple products in the past, I will pass on multiple products in the future.
They are trying to deliver a product that people have asked for and asked for, and they are trying to make a little money so they can continue their business, and people go rabid about that. They are a business, and are operating as a business does, if they didn't, DnD wouldn't exist right now. You act like they are out to shaft you all, but really, do you think all those writers and such are really out to get us? Most of the people at WotC are nerds just like us, lucky enough to get paid to play.
And they are delivering a poor product.
I know several of the WotC people. They are really great people. Not only am I sure they are not out to shaft me or anyone else, but I am also sure they are trying to get by, want their products to succeed, and are doing their best.
That still does not mean I have to buy their stuff.
That still does not mean the DDI has value it does not.
Good people can make bad products. It does not suddenly make them bad people, or undeserving, but it also does not mean people have to buy that product anyway.
And they are delivering a poor product.
QUOTE]
As I've mentioned, you've made your judgement, and you made it based on price alone, not on the actual product. And for the record, stating a fact is not mocking anyone. If you can't afford something, you can't afford it, that's not mocking, that is a fact. Trying to make me seem like a bad guy so your argument looks better, accomplishes nothing.
We have an entire thread of people saying DDI is overpriced. They have no other justification, they have no other reason, than the cost. They don't think about what is doing for hobby gaming, or anything. They, like you, have no idea how good or bad the product will be. You mention RPG products are rarely delayed. DDI is far beyond anything ever imagined by a gaming company, it is much more like a game, which are very often delayed.
The ridiculous thing is there's no guarantee I myself will get DDI, especially if it IS bad. What I'm tired of, is people judging something completely blindly, for a reason that has nothing to do with the product.
You can say what you want, you can scream until you are blue in the face. But, as I've said, IF DDI works as we've been told it will work, and you compare this to what's out there, it will completely and totally annihilate the competition.
There are plenty of gamers who are tired of searching for hours on the internet for a decent dungeon mapper, who want to be able to search databases, who want to be able to print their own tiles, who want an updated character generator and visualizer, a voice integrated tabletop, and they will pay for it.
As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.
As I've mentioned, you've made your judgement, and you made it based on price alone, not on the actual product.
It is nice to know you can read my mind.
And for the record, stating a fact is not mocking anyone. If you can't afford something, you can't afford it, that's not mocking, that is a fact. Trying to make me seem like a bad guy so your argument looks better, accomplishes nothing.
It is also nice to know that you know how much money I have available.
As for whether you are the bad guy, you definitely do not need my help for that.
We have an entire thread of people saying DDI is overpriced. They have no other justification, they have no other reason, than the cost.
Generally something is only overpriced because of the cost.
Very rarely do you find something overpriced because of the color.
They don't think about what is doing for hobby gaming, or anything. They, like you, have no idea how good or bad the product will be. You mention RPG products are rarely delayed. DDI is far beyond anything ever imagined by a gaming company, it is much more like a game, which are very often delayed.
So now we are all horrible people, not thinking about the hobby, condemning it to die because we will not subscribe to DDI?
Woe! Woe is us!
As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.
So everyone who does not object assents?
And the majority of gamers asked for this, even though it was only people complaining online?
Why people rise up and rant and rave about something they have no idea about, I'll never understand. Let's look at this- consider it -instead of simply exploding because of seeing a $15 monthly fee. Here we go.
Firstly, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. That's it, fifty whole cents a day. I personally know gamers who easily spend $3 dollars a day on extra soft drinks/snack food at work, and then proceed to complain about having to pay out $15/month for something like this! HA! If you are truly so broke you can't afford this, then you undoubtedly couldn't afford the books, thus you are not WotC's target market anyhow. Moan about it all you want, but most people can find 15 bucks a month in their couch.
Secondly, STOP comparing DDI to WoW. They are completely, totally, ridiculously different. I've been lucky enough to play nearly every MMO out there, I've tried free ones, I've tried pay to play ones. I like WoW, it's fun, something to do. However, it is NOT DnD, and never will be, no online MMO will ever compare. Also, just because the game is popular, does not mean they have a lot of overhead costs, we have no idea how many people they employ in maintaining WoW, but I seriously doubt it's as many as folks think.
$14 a month is too much.
Yes so you waste $14 a week on snacks. With DDI that is $14 LESS you have to waste. The D&D product from what I have seen (And I have seen it, game table character generator and all) is NOT worth $14 a month.
Comparing DDI to WoW is relevent because they are both online services serving the same genre. I do not play MMORPG's because I don't like them. However that does not stop me from seeing the value one gets out of an MMO to a product for updates.
I don't care how much WoW costs (I think it too much as well, and I pay for it for my Fiance). WoW is overpriced as is. DDI offers LESS enjoyment per hour, and if it hits this price scheme will most likely be a rip off.
Because DDI is an online service it is definitely comparable to Warcraft.
I don't even LIKE Warcraft and find MMORPG's seriously wanting, yet I find them a better bargain than D&DI at $15.
Why is D&D's online extra content more expensive than a World of Warcraft account? >
I pay $15/month for AoC. It's just more of the mind numbing grind for exp then elite gear. On top of that, the pvp rules are totally unbalanced.
If WotC's game table and map maker are decent and cheat-free, I would gladly pay $15/month for the "more" balanced D&D ruleset and the ability to make/play custom adventures. Some way to share maps/adventure modules would be needed though. Then I could play Living campaigns from home. That would totally be worth $15/mo
I pay $15/month for AoC. It's just more of the mind numbing grind for exp then elite gear. On top of that, the pvp rules are totally unbalanced.
If WotC's game table and map maker are decent and cheat-free, I would gladly pay $15/month for the "more" balanced D&D ruleset and the ability to make/play custom adventures. Some way to share maps/adventure modules would be needed though. Then I could play Living campaigns from home. That would totally be worth $15/mo
What you propose is not unreasonable. If they adapted SOMETHING like NWN, where users could download other users premade dungeons and such, I might be more inclined to agree to a $15/month price.
What you propose is not unreasonable. If they adapted SOMETHING like NWN, where users could download other users premade dungeons and such, I might be more inclined to agree to a $15/month price.
I'm fairly certain that the Game Table and online Vault and other tools are supposed to facilitate sharing maps/adventures amongst the community at large.
The pricing that we see is now equal to that of popular MMOs and it is important to consider the relative value of what D&DI offers to that of MMOs and to the value of magazine suscriptions. D&DI appears to be hopefully a vaulable mix of both magaizine subxcription, online game table, and RPG related tools. What remains is to determine if what they offer has the quality and usefulness to justify the price given its hybrid placement between magazines and a psuedo MMO.
I consider what has ben described so far to be overpriced, but I am hopeful that WotC will take these boards discussions into account as they consider what will be included in the D&DI offerings and at what price.
rooster
You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.
Well, that's not strictly true.
Speaking for myself, I'm interested in the Dungeon and Dragon content, but not interested enough to pay $15/month for it. I have the disposable income; the value proposition just isn't there for me. I'm not interested in any of the other pieces of D&DI at this time. I'm sure they're very interesting and there's a market for them, but I'm not it.
Assuming I'm not alone in that, it behooves WotC to come up with some kind of product offering that gets me to give them my money, assuming it can increase its profit by doing so. I have to think there's a price point for pieces of the D&DI offering that would do so.
A) 180$ is not really that much money, just don't go out for dinner one time less a month and your good. Or maybe just instead of getting 800 TV channels downgrade to something that you might actually use after careful consideration of what shows you watch most.
B) From the looks of it, you are mostly getting the "convenience" of having all the online stuff right at your finger tips and of professional quality. For some people they will never use this stuff and others I guarantee you will make maps for the fun of it like every day and get their moneys worth out of it.
Honestly I find ~10$ a month on the ground, so right there is 2/3 of the cost.
Individual pdfs of Dragon and Dungeon will be available for purchase.
I hadn't heard that. I'll sure buy some of that when it's available.
And 15 bucks a month? Who would complain about such a trivial amount of money? I can barely buy lunch for that.
i cant believe you just said that.
The thing is I agree with both sides here.
A) 180$ is not really that much money, just don't go out for dinner one time less a month and your good. Or maybe just instead of getting 800 TV channels downgrade to something that you might actually use after careful consideration of what shows you watch most.
Yeah... what do you do for a living that you are able to go out to dinner all the time and afford 800 channels?
I'm happy to hear you are so prosperous, but some of us just don't make that much money.
B) From the looks of it, you are mostly getting the "convenience" of having all the online stuff right at your finger tips and of professional quality. For some people they will never use this stuff and others I guarantee you will make maps for the fun of it like every day and get their moneys worth out of it.
Honestly I find ~10$ a month on the ground, so right there is 2/3 of the cost.
Having the content online is way less convenient than my paper issues of Dragon.
In addition to the fee I have to pay for DDI, and also need to pay for printer paper and ink to print out the relevant articles I'll need at the table.
As usual, it's always the vocal minority that is the loudest. There's what, 100 people on this thread out of the tens of thousands of gamers? I can see there's no arguing with the judgementally blind, have fun thinking what you will, but this is something a MAJORITY of gamers have asked for, and they are now getting it.
Got any proof??
If you did WOTC would have plastered it all over they're website long ago.
The thread's about opinion. and people are giving their opinion. You shouldn't flip out quite so easily. You like the D&DI, great, others don't think its worth it, such is life. I don't see how the D&DI will revolutionize anything, everything they're offering has been around for years.
I won't pay $15 a month for subscriptions to online magazines, even if a really cool character visualizer is included, and there are tools for doing online adventures. I would be willing to pay, maybe $20 for the tools and visualizer. The magazines... they'd have to be pretty amazing to get more than $1 an issue for online content that I can probably just pirate anyways (at that point I am donating money because I want to support the publisher/writers) I might be willing to go $0.50 each for PC online minni's if that is what my group wants to use, but monsters would have to be way cheaper.
Someone at WotC is insane if they think a decent number of people will pay $15 a month for the product they are offering. This product will only appeal to two groups of people- the wildly obsessed fanboys that MUST own everything D&D, and people that have no other way to game with their friends (out serving in the military, exiled to a deserted island, live in a bubble, or something like that) This is assuming that for some reason the people in the latter group cannot use any of the free, or reasonably prices online game tools already available.
I know some people out there will say "What about quality? What if the stuff WotC offers is really that amazing??!" I suppose it is possible, but after 3.0's e-tools debacle, and the current lack of useful release, I am skeptical, to say the least.
Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode: the magazines, the Compendium, and the bonus tools. The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
I hope they keep this charging for separated things plan in mind.
Quite frankly, I'd rather pay more per page to have a finished book and help keep my local gaming store in business.
(Sidenote: SJG's Pyramid is $20 per year with weekly updates of around ten articles. That's great value for money.)
Basically, should I join now to get the lowest prices but the lowest amount of components or am I going to get screwed later?
On the pricing information, I have a question. If I decide to lock in the low rate of $5/month by subscribing for a year, will it stay that way even if new components become available. For instance, if I join today for $5/month and in 6 months the character generator becomes available, but the price goes up to $10/month, will my subscription rate stay at $5/month or will I get surprised by an increase in my subscription rate to get the new components?
Basically, should I join now to get the lowest prices but the lowest amount of components or am I going to get screwed later?
Others have asked this question as well. Gamer_zer0 is going to ask TPTB (the powers that b) about it and try to get back to us ASAP.
Likely options include:
- The "full" package has an upgrade price
- They could give it all to subscribers as a "thank you" to early adopters
- May need to cancel the "low" sub and re-buy a new year at the "full" price.
Or they may come up with something else. Those are just the options I forsee.
Do not listen to anyone from WOTC...they are payed to lie to you. If you look through the threads on these boards you will see WOTC has flipflopped over 100 times. DO NOT PAY UNTIL YOU SEE WHAT YOU ARE GETTING. Do not support substanderd content. If you pay $5 dollars a month for stuff you used to get for free WOTC will not improve its content or editing. If you do not pay for the crap they are trying to sell you right now they will improve their product till it is worth the price.
Ghostintheshell
(drunk but i can still see Dungeon and Dragons mags are worthless in their current form without even decent editing)
Others have asked this question as well. Gamer_zer0 is going to ask TPTB (the powers that b) about it and try to get back to us ASAP.
Likely options include:
- The "full" package has an upgrade price
- They could give it all to subscribers as a "thank you" to early adopters
- May need to cancel the "low" sub and re-buy a new year at the "full" price.
Or they may come up with something else. Those are just the options I forsee.
I think the way they handle such an "upgrade" will be essential to whether or not people buy into it further. It'll be important for folks not to feel cheated and due to the sentiment around the pricing schemes and delays it will be all too easy for people to cry foul.
rooster
Basically it is like this:
Do not listen to anyone from WOTC...they are payed to lie to you.
Well, not all of them are like that. But Randy Buehler, yeah, he is a "spin doctor."
Three words - Magic vs. Poker.
For those who don't know, Buehler used to be in charge of Magic and came very close to removing several core concepts from the game completely. Luckily, he was "promoted" just in the nick of time. His "Magic vs. Poker" article is considered one of the absolutely very worst ever written on Wizards, possibly of all time.
I'm gonna see if I can go dig that up.
$14 a month is too much.
Yes so you waste $14 a week on snacks. With DDI that is $14 LESS you have to waste. The D&D product from what I have seen (And I have seen it, game table character generator and all) is NOT worth $14 a month.
Comparing DDI to WoW is relevent because they are both online services serving the same genre. I do not play MMORPG's because I don't like them. However that does not stop me from seeing the value one gets out of an MMO to a product for updates.
I don't care how much WoW costs (I think it too much as well, and I pay for it for my Fiance). WoW is overpriced as is. DDI offers LESS enjoyment per hour, and if it hits this price scheme will most likely be a rip off.
Because DDI is an online service it is definitely comparable to Warcraft.
I don't even LIKE Warcraft and find MMORPG's seriously wanting, yet I find them a better bargain than D&DI at $15.
I don't think that MMORPG's and table top games are similar. If that would be the case I wouldn't even be playing D&D.
Now you add in an online game table with nifty 3D graphics and planned voice communications. A character visualizer that can create custom minis for use on this game table. A character builder to make your nifty character have a character sheet. And the ablity to tie these together.. the mini linking to your stats, the game table using your mini. The dungeon builder and encounter builder for the DM, with easily accessible stats and information. And still all $5 less than the magazine subscription.
Well, that is still not all though. You also get a useful webtool for looking up powers, class and item information. Sure, it's not a full rules database but if Player A pulls out a power from the new expansion book he just bought and says he is going to use it to fry your planned longterm villian more easily than expected, well now you can just type in the name and check the rules right there and then instead of asking him to pass over the book, finding it in the book and hoping there isn't some errata that has been posted which changes how it works.
And what is this? That isn't all? No, my friends, that's right.. why is it an ongoing charge for these programs and features? Because on average 1-2 new books are released every month and what do you know but their information get's carried over to these tools. And not just that but the errata that are put out get pulled into this as well. Now that is a good bit of updating to be done. Plus the maintaining of servers used to store this information, after all they are offering a Character Vault and Campaign Vault that will host information about your characters and campaigns and have even mentioned being able to make your dungeon maps and adventure information available to other users.
Overall, that is a pretty expansive offering with a fair bit of updating, upkeep and maintenance to be done by their staff. And yet, all done for less than if you went to the store and bought a copy of each magazine off the shelf. I don't think the requested price is unreasonable at all. The real question is if what they are offering is worth paying it. If not then it is very possible that it simply isn't feasable for WotC to offer what they are hoping to offer here.
At least that's what it says on the site.
Three words - Magic vs. Poker.
I'm gonna see if I can go dig that up.
Here it is.
We here at Wizards of the Coast have been getting a lot of questions lately asking how we feel about poker and the fact that some of the stars of our Pro Tour have been successful in recent poker tournaments. Are we worried about this newly growing competitor to Magic: The Gathering? The short answer is “no.” Anything that brings more interest and attention to the gaming world is ultimately good for Magic, because we've got the best game going. The long answer is more subtle and I want to take the time in this article to answer these questions and lay out our position for those of you who want more details . . . .
For starters, congratulations to Dave Williams. For those of you who haven't heard, Dave came in second place at this year's World Series of Poker. For his accomplishment, Dave earned $3.5 million . . . .
See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af21 for the rest of the article.
Dave Williams still plays Magic. He finished 64th at U.S. Nationals last month.
Also whats with all the people complaining about the price and then saying that they have no use for the tools.... MTB0gre has numerous humorous posts. come on man, if you dont have any use for the tools would you use em if they were free?
And honestly, you dont have to use DDI. its not like there isn't anyway to play 4th edition D&D over the net. *cough* Fantasy Grounds *cough*
What's wrong with them charging you for additional content they take time to make?
I don't want the tools or dungeon magazine. Can I just get dragon at less of a price
Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.
Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.
As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?
...thought so.
I don't want the tools or dungeon magazine. Can I just get dragon at less of a price
Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.
Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.
As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?
...thought so.
What?
No, no. There are only two announced pricing plans:[indent]4.99/month for a year:
- Dragon
- Dungeon
- Compendium
- Bonus Tools
10.99/month for a year:
- Dragon
- Dungeon
- Compendium
- Bonus Tools
- Character Builder
- Character Visualizer
- Dungeon Builder
- D&D Virtual Gaming Table
There is currently no announced method of subscribing to Dragon, but not Dungeon.
Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.
Thats not what was asked. He wants to know if you can pay less and subscribe to Dragon alone. You can't. You have to pay for everything.
You can't Ixious, the paper version of Dragon no longer exists. I hate that too, but, nothing we can do about it.
Yes there is. Support Kobold Quarterly or Dragon Roots or any other actual magazine (lets face it, Dragon is no longer a magazine its web articles you have to pay for) that comes out.
Make WOTC realize killing Dragon magazine was a mistake.
The good MMOs are $15 per month if you pay by month. I heard it was $10 per month if you pay by year.
Yeah, but good MMOs are good MMOs. This is an online product from Wizards of the Coast. There is a huge difference in quality. Based on how poorly run these forums are and how glitchy gleemax was, they should be paying US when we use their online products due to the loss of time spent dealing with the DATABASE ERROR monster and the WSOD horror.
And that's not even entering into territory that Magic Online has trodden.
What?
No, no. There are only two announced pricing plans:[indent]4.99/month for a year:
- Dragon
- Dungeon
- Compendium
- Bonus Tools
That is more... human. However, the "useful stuff for 5$/month" makes the "useless stuff for 15$/month" look even crazier.
That is more... human. However, the "useful stuff for 5$/month" makes the "useless stuff for 15$/month" look even crazier.
The $10 extra a month for the remaining tools is a very hard sell.
rooster
The $10 extra a month for the remaining tools is a very hard sell.
rooster
It depends on what you're after I suppose.
rooster
But yeah it's nice for saving time and turning out reasonable character sheets.
Yes. There will be two subscription methods. a $10/month, and a $15/month. Also, there will be reduced costs for annual subscriptions, etc.
Oh, yeah, and who pre-orders the PHB and pays $35 for it? I got the three-book set for $60, with free shipping, pre-ordered.
As for the complaining about no free-month of DDI....are you paying for it currently? Or are you getting Dragon and Dungeons online-magazines, and the Compendium, for free?
...thought so.
I wonder how many people who are actually going to be paying for this are -not- going to subscribe to the yearly subscription? I don't understand why anyone would pay the extra $5/month, except possibly to try 1 or 2 months first, then going yearly subscription or dropping completely.
Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?
Yes there is. Support Kobold Quarterly or Dragon Roots or any other actual magazine (lets face it, Dragon is no longer a magazine its web articles you have to pay for) that comes out.
Make WOTC realize killing Dragon magazine was a mistake.
My problem is that DDI will be used to suppliment campaign setting material. Instead of putting out 10 Forgotten Realms books, they're putting out 3 and any other information goes in the e-mag.
That said, $5 is fine for two magazines.
My problem is that DDI will be used to suppliment campaign setting material. Instead of putting out 10 Forgotten Realms books, they're putting out 3 and any other information goes in the e-mag.
And novels and adventures, but I understand what you're saying.
Personally, I love that. I want more core and more settings overall.
I wonder how many people who are actually going to be paying for this are -not- going to subscribe to the yearly subscription? I don't understand why anyone would pay the extra $5/month, except possibly to try 1 or 2 months first, then going yearly subscription or dropping completely.
Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?
I'll probably go month-to-month for one or two months. At least one month with the full subscription, just to give it a whirl. Once I settle on whether or not to get the full, I'll likely get the annual subscription.
15 dollars is nothing no matter who you are, if you really need it go beg for money on a corner of a street for an hour. The average salary of a begger is 29k a year (fulltime mind you)
That's not bad, I should drive into the city on weekends to supplement my income for my poor choices gaming purchases.
I know! It is actually true if you google it you can find the info.
Yes, because teh intrawebz never lie. NEVAR!
1. Will all content and rules and errata and clarifications from all new books be useable on all the DDi tools? If not lame. Although I can understand a two month delay in adding the content like Magic Online.
2. How valid and official will Dungeon or Dragon stuff be? Will I be able to use it in the RPGA campaigns? I know most GM's don't use or even look at the old Paizo Dragons because it was cracked out. Although Dungeon was more about campaigns. And my table used the RPGA ban and restricted list as a guide for our ban and restricted list.
3. Will DDi's online play be in conjuction with RPGA campaigns, or will those things be tracked separately? If separate, tisk tisk tisk.
4. Will the online dungeon be more than just a map? Things like having text pop up when players scroll over stuff would be awesome. Or text when players move through a door and etc. This would also be great for adventure making. And since user content is the way of the future for all forms of media, it would only make sense for players to be able to upload home created mods and adventures for the world to use. Maybe have a voting system and a view tracker, so people can weed out the crap.
5. 3D movement and hexes!?
1. Will all content and rules and errata and clarifications from all new books be useable on all the DDi tools? If not lame. Although I can understand a two month delay in adding the content like Magic Online.
The plan is that, for example, when you're using the Game Table and want to see how "Power X" works, it will be linked to the Compendium. Some reports are saying that the Compendium will gets rules updates before they're published in the Errata (since Errata has to be compiled and will be updated perhaps monthly, where the Compendium can be updated item-by-item I'm thinking).
2. How valid and official will Dungeon or Dragon stuff be? Will I be able to use it in the RPGA campaigns? I know most GM's don't use or even look at the old Paizo Dragons because it was cracked out. Although Dungeon was more about campaigns. And my table used the RPGA ban and restricted list as a guide for our ban and restricted list.
The RPGA CCG v1.6 (RPGA Downloads) lists the rules for what's campaign legal. This includes items from Dragon magainze - with the exception of magic items and rituals, both of which can be unlocked for Living Forgotten Realms via limited "access slots".
3. Will DDi's online play be in conjuction with RPGA campaigns, or will those things be tracked separately? If separate, tisk tisk tisk.
There are hopes to be able to create/convert RPGA modules for use with the Game Table (by those of us in the community, even if WotC/RPGA staff can't do it).
However there are no plans I know of to make play in the Game Table auto-report for RPGA tracking/points etc. This is due in no small part (I speculate) to the fact the the Game Table is a pay product (as part of D&Di), and the RPGA is free.
There would be other issues with allowing the Game Table to auto-report as well, including keeping track of when a module really is completed, not wanting to have too many things (like the Game Table) mucking about in the RPGA/DCI reporting database, etc.
It'd be nice if it eventually tossed up a form, perhaps, but I, for one, actually like the idea of keeping them separate for now.
4. Will the online dungeon be more than just a map? Things like having text pop up when players scroll over stuff would be awesome. Or text when players move through a door and etc. This would also be great for adventure making. And since user content is the way of the future for all forms of media, it would only make sense for players to be able to upload home created mods and adventures for the world to use. Maybe have a voting system and a view tracker, so people can weed out the crap.
Y'know - I'm not sure what "storytelling" tools are or aren't integrated into the Table. IE - Fantasy Grounds lets you prep an entire module. I think the Game Table is really just for mapping and battle tracking. You'd still want/need a separate place to keep your module. Perhaps WotC_DM can speak more to that.
5. 3D movement and hexes!?
Z-axis support (for 3D movement like flying/swimming) is not a launch feature, but it is "on the radar".
The Game Table is being designed with 4E support in mind, and since 4E doesn't use hexes, I don't think the Game Table will recognize them either.
You can still import your own maps, however. So if you draw a hex-map in your favorite mapping software and just import that with the hex-grid on it, I don't think there would be any problems.
I'd like to point you to Cart_Sprinter's FAQ if you have other questions.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1045521
Anyone who is planning on going month to month permanently, can you please explain why?
I'm thinking of going bi-month-to-month. If subscribing for a month continues to give you access to the issue archives of Dragon and Dungeon (really the only content I'm using and enjoying), I wouldn't have to subscribe every month.
Just drop $5-$10 (or whatever it is) every four months and download an entire season's worth of articles and adventures.
I'm thinking of going bi-month-to-month. If subscribing for a month continues to give you access to the issue archives of Dragon and Dungeon (really the only content I'm using and enjoying), I wouldn't have to subscribe every month.
Just drop $5-$10 (or whatever it is) every four months and download an entire season's worth of articles and adventures.
There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.
If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.
There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.
If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.
I believe this is still the case. However, you would get access to everything that had been added to the compendium when you were not a member, but you can only use it when you're a member.
There was originally a plan in place that would grant you access to Dungeon and Dragon for the months in which you were a subscriber.
If that's still in effect you would only get access to every-other issue.
That was mjy plan as well but I will likely get Dragon and Dungeon if nothing else.
I believe this is still the case. However, you would get access to everything that had been added to the compendium when you were not a member, but you can only use it when you're a member.
Agreed.
rooster
I think this is one of the main issues. The game table sounds like a nice additional resource at a live table game. Unfortunately, most of my players are not going to go for the price.
rooster
If all are at the same table, only the DM needs to have a subscription. Oh and a computer able to hangle the load.
I have no problems paying that amount as the DM. But the plan was to use laptops around the gaming table. I can't reasonably ask my players to pay this cost each.
Each subscription comes with "a number" of guest passes every month (what that number is/will be hasn't been disclosed yet). You can also purchase additional guest passes.
This leaves "face-to-face" groups that want to use the game table three options.
1) Everyone subscribes. Most expensive option, but each member of the group gets full unlimited access to the magazines, character builder, etc etc etc.
2) The GM subscribes and everyone else chips in for "stuff" as they see fit. This cost can be used to purchase needed guest passes, 3D minis and tiles, or for pizza money. Moderate cost, moderate returns. Players can only access D&Di features in 24-hour increments based on the activation of their guest passes.
3) The GM subscribes, but uses two different monitors, one for his view, and another for the player's view. Least expensive. Players get no direct access to D&Di, and have to rely on the DM to do it all (character creation, moving their minis, etc).
Pick one that fits your needs.
Here's the thing, I don't need to see the tools to know I won't use them. I don't need a digital table top, I game with my friends. I couldn't care less about a 3d representation of my character that looks like a refuge from WoW and for far less than $180 I can pay an artist over the internet to make me a much nicer looking drawing of my character.
I'll draw it for free!
rooster
I certainly think partial subscription options, such as what we have now with the magazines separate fropm the table top will be needed to grab the most cutomers without alienating some of the interested customer and player base. I hope we only see more subscription options rather than any reduction after all of the tools are available.
rooster
Does anyone know if WotC is going to change the subscription options after the tool go live? I had heard that WotC was only offering the $5 a month subscritption until the tool were ready then it went back to the $15 thing.
Does anyone know if WotC is going to change the subscription options after the tool go live? I had heard that WotC was only offering the $5 a month subscritption until the tool were ready then it went back to the $15 thing.
This is an unanswered question.
I can see it going one of two ways.
Web content only (mostly ezines) remains an option renewable.
Once full suite available for fee, this will be only price with those that purchased web content only getting credit for unused potion.
I am sorry this has been so confusing, I will do what I can to help make this clear.
I just wanted to pop my head in here and let you know that I am getting the information together, in one place, to help clarify the questions regarding pricing. a DDi menu of sorts!
I am sorry this has been so confusing, I will do what I can to help make this clear.
I'd argue it's less confusing and more a matter of being simply "undefnied". Alas, because it's all been undefined for so long, it leads to rumors and speculation (guilty!).
If you really *can* get any solid pricing info, even with a notation that it's a *tenative* plan and subject to change, that would make a lot of people here VERY happy.
I do like the option of ezines being like 4.95 a month; however, I would like them to actually print an annual in hard copy of all the class acts, magic items, exploits as Yearly update and then if you do a path make it an actual print edition as well.
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
I think that one of the main concerns/complaints is the idea that what is offered is not worth the recurring monthly fee; that standard MMO pricing has been incorrectly applied to something that is completely different.
My thoughts at least.
rooster
This is our current DDi pricing structure
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
At DDXP it was mentioned that a "full" subscription would include "a number" of guest passes, and that additional 24-hour guest passes would be available at an additional cost.
Any chance you can dig up where this plan currently stands?
Specifically:
How many guest passes are included with a full subscription?
What is the cost for additional guest passes (and are they sold in packs, individually, both?)
Hopefully Solice's post puts the issue to rest (or at least calms it down) for everyone else as well as it did for me.
This is our current DDi pricing structure
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
When is that suppose to start?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
In previous iterations of the pricing scheme there was a 3 month option for both the web-content and full subscriptions. Is this option still available? I'm updating the FAQ and would like to know.
This is our current DDi pricing structure
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
Thanx for the info. Still not happy about the print magazines being taken away but the PDF subscription is quite cheap. Any ETA on DDI?
Thanx for the info. Still not happy about the print magazines being taken away but the PDF subscription is quite cheap. Any ETA on DDI?
"When it's ready"
The tools will see a beta test ebfore being released in full, so until you hear betas are going well, just be patient a little longer.
This is our current DDi pricing structure
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
Here's what I want to know before I entertain buying a "product":
If I get access to Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag at $5/month, can I save the pdf files to my computer and keep them forever and ever? Or will they only be accessible through the DDi website?
Because frankly, I think any amount of money is too expensive to pay just for the privilege of viewing online content. I want something to keep.
(And to be honest, I don't think an extra $60 is a good value for a virtual gaming table and a dungeon builder. I don't game online - and could for free at other sources anyway - and dungeon-builder software at $60 should be a permanent software download, not a web-based application. Just my thoughts.)
This is our current DDi pricing structure
For the full DDi features and content, Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium, bonus tools such as the encounter builder, the character builder, the character visualizer, the dungeon builder, and D&D game table.
- $9.95 per month if you commit to a 12 month subscription.
- $14.95 per month if you go month to month.
Web Content only: This would include the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, compendium and bonus tools such as the encounter builder.
- $4.95 per month is you commit to a 12 month subscription
- $7.95 per month if you month to month.
Does this help clear things up?
Is there something more that I could help clarify?
It's great to have the information laid out clearly like that.
As someone who lives in the UK, I was wondering whether they had given any thought to international pricing?
Here's what I want to know before I entertain buying a "product":
If I get access to Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag at $5/month, can I save the pdf files to my computer and keep them forever and ever? Or will they only be accessible through the DDi website?
Because frankly, I think any amount of money is too expensive to pay just for the privilege of viewing online content. I want something to keep.
(And to be honest, I don't think an extra $60 is a good value for a virtual gaming table and a dungeon builder. I don't game online - and could for free at other sources anyway - and dungeon-builder software at $60 should be a permanent software download, not a web-based application. Just my thoughts.)
Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.
And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.
Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.
And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.
I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.
rooster
I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.
rooster
The aplications do appear to be downloads, however web interface for some aspects appear to be required.
Example. It appears mapmaker can be fully used offline, but you need Game Table connected to upload the maps.
Character creator, can store characters offline and those stored can be viewed offline, however to level up a character you need to be online (unless that has changed) and clearly need to be online to play the character.
Considering you can download the magazines now, I think it is safe to assume that that won't change seeing as we are in the trial mode for the magazines.
And I believe that the dungeon builder, like the character builder; visualizer; and game table, is a permenant download as it isn't part of the web content pack.
How do you know that these are permanent downloads? I thought they weren't out yet.
In previous iterations of the pricing scheme there was a 3 month option for both the web-content and full subscriptions. Is this option still available? I'm updating the FAQ and would like to know.
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $4.95 per month
3 Months = $6.65 per month
1 Month = $7.95 per month
Full Subscription Package (including both Web content and client applications)
12 Months = $9.95 per month
1 months = $14.95 per month
Hope this helps! Thank you for keeping that FAQ up to date!
I thought the builder and such were going to be web dependent as you would need to connect to create and house characters as well as have access to the latest updates like feats, etc.
rooster
You need to be connected to the internet to download new updates, but they have said that they have gotten rid of the requirement to be connected to the internet for regular use.
How do you know that these are permanent downloads? I thought they weren't out yet.
Because they are part of the client price package for D&Di as opposed to the web content package. Plus I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned a few times in interviews and the like.
"When it's ready"
The tools will see a beta test ebfore being released in full, so until you hear betas are going well, just be patient a little longer.
To be honest I've run out of patience. I logged on to join DDi the day 4th ed came out when I bought the books. Wasn't up. After the lacklustre performance of WoTC lately with various thinngs, the abomination of the new realms I think our group is going to go back to 3.5 with a few houserules. We're playing 3.5 today. Might reeturn once some new books come out next year for 4th ed. Feels a bit incomplete and gets boring fast.
To be honest I've run out of patience. I logged on to join DDi the day 4th ed came out when I bought the books. Wasn't up. After the lacklustre performance of WoTC lately with various thinngs, the abomination of the new realms I think our group is going to go back to 3.5 with a few houserules. We're playing 3.5 today. Might reeturn once some new books come out next year for 4th ed. Feels a bit incomplete and gets boring fast.
When 3rd edition came out, you could only buy the PHB.
When 3rd edition came out, you could only buy the PHB.
Had better support with dead tree Dragon/Dungeon. Dungeon stinks now but Dragon is okay. Also my 4th ed books have to compete with my entire 3.5 collection. Probably not fair but neither is life.