Why do I feel like were we lied to about DDi? Why does this feel like vapourware, the same way Master Tools ended up over what we were told was a map program issue. Originally they were to be ready at the games release. 3 months later, they're still not all out. Matter of fact, the ones that showed the most promise are still not released.
Why? What could have gone wrong that pushed back release of these tools for 3 months? After seeing the vid clips on those giant convention screens, these tools were the sole reason for my troop to get into the new edition (that and what we thought would be easier rules for stuff like grapple). And it was always talked about how these systems would be ready to go when we got our hands on the books. Even now, I look at the lil ad for DDi that came with my book set. Still nothing.
You haven't talked to the public about this. You haven't admitted that something is amiss in Denmark D&D'sville. And as a company there has been no reasoning given to the fanbase that didn't sound like an insult.
And to see stuff like this:
"D&DI Tools Update
After we launch our D&DI subscription service, the Character Builder will become our #1 priority. First up will be a public Beta test, then a commercial release, and then our development efforts will move onto the Character Visualizer. "
... shows that something happened and we weren't told. Why the deception in regards to the product?
Will you please tell me and anyone else wondering why this lack of development happened?
I can't in good conscience use these books if we are going to become the victims of a bait and switch.
The books can stand on their own, and I would submit that you didn't get baited-and-switched in that respect: you paid for and have the books. Now, if you assume that the cost of the books also included the use of the D&DI tools, I see your argument, though I think it's cutting off your nose to spite your own face not to play the game, and the D&DI tools were (AFAIK) always going to be subscription-based.
Why? What could have gone wrong that pushed back release of these tools for 3 months?
More than 3 months... As a matter of fact a gaming community website I frequent is betting that the VTT won't be out until the PHB3 is released. (Keep in mind the PHB2 hasn't been released) I think it is more likely they scrap the table before then though. Vaporware as you said...
I sincerely hope this isn't the case, but as I've stated many a time on these forums, the more time that goes on the less likely it is that we get what was promised to us.
More than 3 months... As a matter of fact a gaming community website I frequent is betting that the VTT won't be out until the PHB3 is released. (Keep in mind the PHB2 hasn't been released) I think it is more likely they scrap the table before then though. Vaporware as you said...
And several websites that I have visited claim that the world ends in 2012, and we all know everything said on the internet is true.
I think it is more likely they scrap the table before then though. Vaporware as you said...
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
It needs work, there's no doubt, but it also isn't at a stage where one would ball it up and throw it away either.
The D&DI however . . . isn't ;). That's a whole other issue (at least as far as bait-n-switch tactics are concerned). I can understand the frustration of those who bought into 4e with certain expections about the D&DI. I wouldn't call it bait-n-switch, maybe a bit misleading, but that's not quite the same thing, is it?
For myself: The virtual game table (in particular) seemed interesting, since I have gaming buddies spread across several states now. It's getting harder to get together anymore; online DnDing (which I never really considered before hearing about D&DI) seemed awesome.
Will we ever see it? I have serious doubts. Even if it ends up being a no-show though, I still have my books. Table-top gaming is something I never have to worry about going "offline" :D.
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
I didn't mean to imply that it IS vaporware. But that it could become so.
And several websites that I have visited claim that the world ends in 2012, and we all know everything said on the internet is true.
Right... it isn't that I'm agreeing with them, but I'm just saying that there are a substantial amount of people who see this as a very likely possibility.
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
It needs work, there's no doubt, but it also isn't at a stage where one would ball it up and throw it away either.
But it was supposed to have been out already. That's what I'm referring to. I personally feel it's bad business that WoTC has avoided real explanations to the slack. And the witty replies left here back in June were somewhat offensive to the software crowd.
I didn't mean to imply that it IS vaporware. But that it could become so.
Exactly what happened to Master Tools, before what was left became eTools.
Well, hold on a sec. I agree that D&DI has been...let's say, disappointing...but you're suggesting that you haven't played the game because they haven't released the tools.
Yes. Exactly. You are correct. When we can't get together to play, it was the ideal solution. With gas prices being outrageous and normal life demanding more work hours every passing month, the idea of being able to play from the computer was great! And now I find it's not going to be version sensitive, and somewhat regret buying the books now, all things considered.
"You are not entitled to anything, Wizards is providing you with a service which you would not otherwise have... Simple as that...
"I'll stop myself there before I break the CoC against this wall of... Well, if you don't know, it's because you're contributing greatly to the wall."
And several websites that I have visited claim that the world ends in 2012, and we all know everything said on the internet is true.
"When 2012 rolls around and we're all dead... You'll eat those words... Okay, sorry, I had to say it, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion..."
"I really wish I had a button on my keyboard that said 'Whiner Smash' and when I pressed it, a hammer would pop out of peoples' screens and crush their fingers so they can't type anymore."
"You are not entitled to anything, Wizards is providing you with a service which you would not otherwise have... Simple as that...
"I'll stop myself there before I break the CoC against this wall of... Well, if you don't know, it's because you're contributing greatly to the wall."
"When 2012 rolls around and we're all dead... You'll eat those words... Okay, sorry, I had to say it, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion..."
wow whining about people whining that's original wait no it's not
"I really wish I had a button on my keyboard that said 'Whiner Smash' and when I pressed it, a hammer would pop out of peoples' screens and crush their fingers so they can't type anymore."
"You are not entitled to anything, Wizards is providing you with a service which you would not otherwise have... Simple as that...
"I'll stop myself there before I break the CoC against this wall of... Well, if you don't know, it's because you're contributing greatly to the wall."
"When 2012 rolls around and we're all dead... You'll eat those words... Okay, sorry, I had to say it, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion..."
"Actually, this isn't quite all that I said... I guess I didn't stop myself in time..."
"Oh, and as for 'whining about whining', my policy is to give what I get. An eye for an eye, as they say..."
"Yeah, I know... 'An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind'... Think about it for a second though, that's just saying it's okay to blind me, I'm the one in the wrong for blinding you back... In the end, if I'm going to get blinded for no reason, I believe I'm perfectly justified in popping out a couple eyeballs. Oh, and to you overly sensitive whiners who can dish it, but can't take it, that's not a threat, just a philosophy..."
"Actually, this isn't quite all that I said... I guess I didn't stop myself in time..."
I know I saw it before it was edited apparently they got to it right before
I quoted you.
But it was supposed to have been out already. That's what I'm referring to. I personally feel it's bad business that WoTC has avoided real explanations to the slack. And the witty replies left here back in June were somewhat offensive to the software crowd.
We've all been dissapointed by the lack of updates, but it seems to be (with a few exceptions) typical corporate policy (for most corporations, not just WotC/Hasbro). "We're delaying our product, that's all we have to say right now".
However, largely through the efforts of this community, we now have a weekly update from Randy Buehler, the VP of digital gaming.
Granted, having weekly updates still doesn't get us the product any faster, but it definately helps (for me, at least) with the fear of the projects being abandoned.
I also find it telling that they have a Digital Gaming dept now (aparently), with their own VP. The Mastertools/eTools debacle was something they were definately just "bolting on" to the company. It was going to be a "be all" software application, but it was all being developed by a 3rd party. There was also no plan (that I was aware of) to bring part of that tool in-house.
D&DI has lots of support internally that we've seen, including the fact that it's (partly) a hosted service.
Does this mean they can't/won't scrap it at the last moment? Not by itself, no.
For me, however, these all show signs of a mature plan. That *plan* is what gives me faith that they'll get it right this time. In they past it always started with a good idea, but never had that "flesh out feel".
Maybe it's just me, but this time it feels different. ~shrug~
Your mileage may vary.
"I really wish I had a button on my keyboard that said 'Whiner Smash' and when I pressed it, a hammer would pop out of peoples' screens and crush their fingers so they can't type anymore."
Wow. I just took that as a huge "#$@^ YOU". I really don't appreciate that. If you honestly feel like we're just whining about the whole thing then maybe you should do some research about exactly what everyone on these forums has had to put up with to try and get some answers involving DDi. Granted, on the whole the community guys have done a lot better recently (IMO) and some people, like WolfStar, are satisfied with what Randy releases every week. Others aren't so satisfied. I'm really just happy that as a community, we've gotten a few things to change and by voicing some of our disdain for the happenings lately in the "customer service" (this isn't REALLY customer service, but I'm pretty sure most will get the idea if they've kept up with things) area of the forums and things have improved greatly.
""You are not entitled to anything, Wizards is providing you with a service which you would not otherwise have... Simple as that...
You're right. We shouldn't be even remotely upset. I mean, many of us only went out to buy the books because of DDi. Why should we be upset about not having DDi right now? Honestly... I feel silly now. We're not paying for it right now, but we will be in a month. We shouldn't be upset about getting less than half the deal at all now should we? I feel so, so silly.
"I'll stop myself there before I break the CoC
You already did it seems.
Wow. I just took that as a huge "#$@^ YOU". I really don't appreciate that. If you honestly feel like we're just whining about the whole thing then maybe you should do some research about exactly what everyone on these forums has had to put up with to try and get some answers involving DDi. Granted, on the whole the community guys have done a lot better recently (IMO) and some people, like WolfStar, are satisfied with what Randy releases every week. Others aren't so satisfied. I'm really just happy that as a community, we've gotten a few things to change and by voicing some of our disdain for the happenings lately in the "customer service" (this isn't REALLY customer service, but I'm pretty sure most will get the idea if they've kept up with things) area of the forums and things have improved greatly.
"I don't appreciate wading through pages of crap to get to any substantial content on this forum. If it wasn't clearly a breech of CoC, I would state my opinions more clearly, trust me. It is this crap right here that just pisses me off about our idiotic society. I hope WotC does what I do when they see people gather together and whine like this, gloss over and brush them off, in favor of constructive criticism. I know there are people out there dishing it, I've seen it, it helps to be constructive, unless the people you're talking to aren't being constructive in the first place."
"You see, I could be like most people and politely discuss how I dissent your point, and I would, if the majority of this forum weren't made of people like this... Instead, I treat you (a universal, general 'you' that means people that like to whine) with the same disdain with which you feel entitled to treat others."
"You know, the Golden Rule, 'do unto others...' You (once again, a general 'you') have unleashed a torrent of crap, which is clearly what you want in return. I guess I'm just a people pleaser..."
You're right. We shouldn't be even remotely upset. I mean, many of us only went out to buy the books because of DDi. Why should we be upset about not having DDi right now? Honestly... I feel silly now. We're not paying for it right now, but we will be in a month. We shouldn't be upset about getting less than half the deal at all now should we? I feel so, so silly.
"You should... DDi was not the purpose of the books... There was no contract, or guarantee of DDi. Just your own foolish sense of entitlement to something... Remove that sense of entitlement, and then think about it, have you lost anything? Yes, they are asking you to pay, a price which they have already said is only for the content which will be ready by next month... GOD FORBID!!!!!!!!!!! THEY WANT YOU TO PAY! FOR THEIR WORK?! It's... It's almost... as if, we lived in some sort of capitalism..."
"Get... over.... yourself..."
What's it like to never be disappointed in anything?
"Oh, I am consistently disappointed, by human beings... Our species is the saddest, most disappointing thing in the world. The thing is, by comparison, nothing even comes close to the disappointment I feel every day waking up in this society, and so, once I've dealt with that, I'm pretty much okay with anything."
"Oh, I am consistently disappointed, by human beings... Our species is the saddest, most disappointing thing in the world. The thing is, by comparison, nothing even comes close to the disappointment I feel every day waking up in this society, and so, once I've dealt with that, I'm pretty much okay with anything."
Edit: Okay, you know what, I apologize. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I snarked off in my last post, but that was unnecessary. So, enough: I'm frustrated in what WotC is delivering via DDI; you're frustrated by people being frustrated and overly demanding, but it doesn't have to be a battle.
"Oh, I am consistently disappointed, by human beings... Our species is the saddest, most disappointing thing in the world. The thing is, by comparison, nothing even comes close to the disappointment I feel every day waking up in this society, and so, once I've dealt with that, I'm pretty much okay with anything."
We encourage or discourage those around us. It's our choice really ;).
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
va·por·ware (vā′pər wer′)
noun
a commercial software product that has received much advance promotion but whose ultimate appearance on the market has become doubtful because of continual delays
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
It needs work, there's no doubt, but it also isn't at a stage where one would ball it up and throw it away either.
I tried it out at Gencon, and must say that I was impressed. I remain optimistic that it will be finished, and released. It looks and feels like a good tool for dnd. Just thought I'd throw in a positive comment, as they are very few these days.
there are a few things that I have issues with, but I will wait until release to rehash those, as they are unrelated to the actual release.
The question of whether it is vaporware or not doesn't seem to be about how far along is the project is, but rather how much longer they are able and willing to spend time and money on development. It's gotta be expensive, even for a big company.
Even with the setbacks, they must really have something solid or else they wouldn't continue spending the time and money. That's gotta be good news. I'm following it all with a casual interest but can't quite shelve my doubts as to what we'll ultimately see.
Even with the setbacks, they must really have something solid or else they wouldn't continue spending the time and money. That's gotta be good news.
Yeah, like Windows Vista.
Yeah, like Windows Vista.
Oh :D.
Guess that answers my question.
After the sh!t WotC has been through with this product though, I can't imagine it will go away. Launch before the end of the year? Probably not. But the drubbing they've received in the forums should probably keep them on task and terrified of the angry villagers that will come after them with torches and pitchforks if they don't deliver!
I know some people will probably jump all over me for saying this, but software dev can be extremely complicated, and riddled with problems that throw you straight back to the drawing board, even with the best team. Was WotC overly ambitious in forecasting a June launch for DDi? Definitely.
After the sh!t WotC has been through with this product though, I can't imagine it will go away. Launch before the end of the year? Probably not. But the drubbing they've received in the forums should probably keep them on task and terrified of the angry villagers that will come after them with torches and pitchforks if they don't deliver!
I might agree but there is already a history of lying about stuff to their customers...
va·por·ware (vā′pər wer′)
noun
a commercial software product that has received much advance promotion but whose ultimate appearance on the market has become doubtful because of continual delays
Right, and my reply is that there's no reason to be doubtful.
It's a pretty solid product. It could use some UI tweaking and there are a few crashbugs in place.
If they'd shown me a powerpoint, if they'd shown me an "empty shell" of a program, I'd be with you.
What they dhowed off at GenCon was a robust well-designed piece of software that just needs a good buff, polish, and some thorough testing to be ready for the public.
Granted, I'm just one guy - but I make my living with computers, so I know decent software when I see it.
It's a cliche, sure, but it's also good advice for dealing with any corporation. Just remember, they're not there make you completely happy*, just happy enough to keep buying the products.
--Tom
*unless you're a shareholder
What they dhowed off at GenCon was a robust well-designed piece of software that just needs a good buff, polish, and some thorough testing to be ready for the public.
Granted, I'm just one guy - but I make my living with computers, so I know decent software when I see it.
As a fellow designer of software, who also saw the GenCon demos, let's just say opinions vary.
As someone who's seen/demoed/clicked on the Game Table, I can assure you it isn't vaporware.
It needs work, there's no doubt, but it also isn't at a stage where one would ball it up and throw it away either.
I don't think you would do that. As seen with every printed book for 4.0 that has very bad editing. (Just look at the Game update pages).
Pretty sad indeed. Just look at the print stuff (that they have been doing for years) and now you think something they haven't done before (the gaming table and etc) would be better?
Yeah, like Windows Vista.
I love my Vista. You must have a crappy or sub par machine if you thinking Vista doesn't work.
va·por·ware (vā′pər wer′)
noun
a commercial software product that has received much advance promotion but whose ultimate appearance on the market has become doubtful because of continual delays
Ive highlighted the text that proves that it does not fall under vapor ware category. Their has not been continual delays. Their has been 1 delay. that was at time of the core books releasing they didn't have it ready for whatever reason. They did not state a new release date so the product cannot be delayed at this point.
since you seem to be fond of definitions heres one for you that might help you understand the meaning a little better
con·tin·u·al [kuhn-tin-yoo-uhl]
–adjective
of regular or frequent recurrence; often repeated; very frequent: continual bus departures.
That is where I feel let down. I know I won't be signing up for a subscription until everything is up and fully working.
I remember in one of the interviews I watched, they stated that there would be NO subscription fee until everything from DDI was released. Now they are starting the subscription base program without all the tools.
That is where I feel let down. I know I won't be signing up for a subscription until everything is up and fully working.
Also correct.
Used to be a YouTube vid from one of the conventions stating this as well, although I couldn't remember the name of it to save my life. Closest thing I can find in my bookmarks is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4OFQt3aQTo Info's very outdated though. And subscription price was double back then. Still, I think I'd pay the $15 if it made the stuff come out on time. This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixHUK6FSI18 I don't like the sound of.
I'll definitely pay when everything's out and usable, but I don't feel like a beta is worth paying for. If I wanted to pay for access Beta Build's, I'd do so on Fileplanet, yah know?
As a fellow designer of software, who also saw the GenCon demos, let's just say opinions vary.
Let me quantify that my opinion, in this case, is of the Game Table.
I also liked the Character Builder (especially knowing a few of the UI changes that are coming, thanks to a PM I got from one of the designers after I wrote my review - alas, I was asked not to quote him publicly (yes, this means it's an unconfirmed quote from an unconfirmed source that I could be making up. I can't offer proof otherwise, so feel free to doubt me - I would) ).
The Character Visualizer, I'll admit, was pretty "m'eh" - but as it's the feature I'm least interested in, this doesn't surprise me. It was pretty rough, and it's something I haven't been excited about anyhow.
"They also said that when the tools were not split up into two prices, the magazines and the tools, and everything was one lump $15/month. Now... it's not."
The 15 dollars price is still for everything, they just created a package for those who aren't interested in everything else due to all the feedback and whining on the board. Geez now they are getting attacked for listening to the people on the boards.
The 15 dollars price is still for everything, they just created a package for those who aren't interested in everything else due to all the feedback and whining on the board. Geez now they are getting attacked for listening to the people on the boards.
...No? They created the bonus tools to do something to appease the people waiting for DDi, and the reason they have THIS package is because they want to start charging for what they have right now. This is not a different package, they will be charging more as they add items. This is more of a "temporary package".
Someone drop a link if I'm mistaken.
And will you cut it out with the whining comments? There are those of us here that are sincerely dissappointed with the way this is being handled because we've grown up around this game and want it to be the best game it can be without them trying to nickel and dime us to death. We are genuinely concerned about the success of DDi (on the whole) and I don't think we should be attacked for voicing our opinions on these forums and in these threads. Please stop calling us "whiners", it isn't appreciated.
...No? They created the bonus tools to do something to appease the people waiting for DDi, and the reason they have THIS package is because they want to start charging for what they have right now. This is not a different package, they will be charging more as they add items. This is more of a "temporary package".
Someone drop a link if I'm mistaken.
And will you cut it out with the whining comments? There are those of us here that are sincerely dissappointed with the way this is being handled because we've grown up around this game and want it to be the best game it can be without them trying to nickel and dime us to death. We are genuinely concerned about the success of DDi (on the whole) and I don't think we should be attacked for voicing our opinions on these forums and in these threads. Please stop calling us "whiners", it isn't appreciated.
I can't drop a link because I haven't found anyone else who has read it that way, so I haven't been able to find a specific response to that idea. However for what it is worth the web content package is described as an option in the FAQ.
I didn't call anyone a whiner in the quoted post. I mentioned "feedback and whining". There was constructive critiscism and there still is some, but there is a lot of whining goikng on at the same time. I'm not going to single anyone out for it, but I'm also not just going to pretend that every single person who engages in this discussions is a savant of wisdom who contributes to a conversation. Some people are whining and it is freaking annoying to read their posts in the middle of these discussions(yes I realize that I'm probably just whining about the whiners).
I love my Vista. You must have a crappy or sub par machine if you thinking Vista doesn't work.
Oh it "works". It just takes more h/w than XP and has no real added benefits.
So, yes, it "works".
Oh it "works". It just takes more h/w than XP and has no real added benefits.
So, yes, it "works".
No "real" benefit is like the "No True Scotsman" self-sealing fallacy. (link).
Meanwhile, at my company we've found great benefit in Bitlocker and the use of Volume Shadow Copy Service at the desktop level.
No "real" benefit is like the "No True Scotsman" self-sealing fallacy. (link).
Meanwhile, at my company we've found great benefit in Bitlocker and the use of Volume Shadow Copy Service at the desktop level.
We used Volume Shadow Copy starting with XP SP1. Bitlocker is cool for laptops. Useless for stopping the most widespread cause of data theft though.
No "real" benefit is like the "No True Scotsman" self-sealing fallacy. (link).
Meanwhile, at my company we've found great benefit in Bitlocker and the use of Volume Shadow Copy Service at the desktop level.
If you also use the Windows Server 2008 you can really see the true benefits as well. (bitlocker)
If you also use the Windows Server 2008 you can really see the true benefits as well. (bitlocker)
There's a reason that Vista has been rejected by corp IT. After cost/benefit analysis, there is no reason to move to it.
There's a reason that Vista has been rejected by corp IT. After cost/benefit analysis, there is no reason to move to it.
Because those corps don't have the computers to actually make it work. I have the 64 bit OSs. I use x64 and Vista Business 64 and it runs smoooooooth. You can't have Ferrari dreams on a pinto budget. That is why people think Vista sucks because their actual computer sucks even more.
Because those corps don't have the computers to actually make it work.
Right. They have machines running XP that run all the s/w needed by the employees. Since Vista adds nothing to the ability of people to get work done and you have to pay for a new OS AND h/w it makes no sense to purchase.
It's called a cost benefit analysis. There is added cost without added benefit. Same reason I didn't switch for home machines even though they are robust enough h/w wise. No benefit to switching.
I bought 4th Edition with the expectation to be playing on the Game Table. Now, not only is the whole thing getting months to nearly a year behind and counting, but they are also planning to charge a subscription service for absolute crap that isn't worth anything already.
They seem to be slow to develop these tools, but they still fire out books pretty readily. It's complete crap. They need to halt new books and put all their work into getting D&Di ready to be quite honest. They're not just being a business, they're completely milking their customers in a dishonest way.
I'm sick of playing D&D on graph paper with clothes pins. That's the only way I can play because minis cost way too much and are supremely overprices no matter how you look at it. Tokens require big game mats at the very least, and it's still obnoxious as all hell. I had already quit playing D&D. The Game Table alone was what was bringing me back from just playing MMORPGs instead. Without the Game Table, those books and D&Di itself is entirely 100% worthless.
WotC has cheated the entire core of gamers.
WotC has cheated the entire core of gamers.
Such generalizations just come off sounding like whining. I didn't ask anybody to determine if I feel cheated.
I personally think the real value is in the books and since I'm not paying for D&Di, I certainly don't feel like WotC owes me something or cheated me.
Anybody that has done software development knows that building software from scratch is rarely as smooth as it appears at first. I don't have the link handly, but I think I remember seeing a thread where WotC_DM said they started development on D&Di in September 2007.
A whole year and it's not done yet??
If WotC made any mistake it was over-optimistic marketing about the DDi in the Core Books. Take your time WotC and make sure it's reliable, working software and I'll be happy to use it when it comes out.
If they wanted to do good business, they'd halt production on the books and put more work into D&Di.
EDIT: Oh, and charging $8 monthly for what they do have ready is almost criminal and is definitely highway robbery as it's not worth squat really. The Game Table is, was, and always would be the meat and core of D&Di.
Whatever.
How eloquent!
If they wanted to do good business, they'd halt production on the books and put more work into D&Di..
I'm sure taking the creative folks (writers, cartographers, artists) and having them work on the software product would really help things along.
Whatever. Truth is they're pulling the same stunt TSR did, just releasing book after book without even considering the quality of their releases, and not giving gamers their money's worth.
By all reports, the books that have come out so far are getting rave reviews. The FRPH sounds great, the AV is getting even better reviews that I have read, and the only one getting less than glowing reviews is the FRCS.
If they wanted to do good business, they'd halt production on the books and put more work into D&Di.
Writing and developing RPGs does not give one the ability to write code.
EDIT: Oh, and charging $8 monthly for what they do have ready is almost criminal and is definitely highway robbery as it's not worth squat really. The Game Table is, was, and always would be the meat and core of D&Di.
Good thing that they aren't charging for the GT yet.
I don't have the link handly, but I think I remember seeing a thread where WotC_DM said they started development on D&Di in September 2007.
Hmm, that's kind of a trick, considering they showed off demos of the tools at GenCon, which was in August 2007. I suppose it's possible they took over development from a 3rd party developer in September.
Demos's of the tools, or were they just videos?? I seem to recall them being just videos, and then getting actual demos later on...
Search gets a little hard when one posts more, however I offer as a start date this:
I am of course partial to what we have, having been involved with it for over 16 months now. Using the applications, there are a few things I wish we had more time to work on, but overall I think the launch package is solid, and there will be plenty of community feedback and update that can be incorporated in, during the beta period or after launch.
We are activekly working on getting a closed beta test started. The D&D Game Table is still in alpha so may not be part of the initial closed beta steps.
This was posted on 7-29-08 at least leading me to believe some coding was done sooner then before GenCon 2007.
1) People who were not expecting DDI to matter to their gaming but are none the less disappointed with what is happening around it. (I'm in this group.)
2) People who expected DDI to matter to their gaming and are thus disappointed with what is happening around it.
There are also those who are happy with DDI currently, and those who don't care at all about DDI.
I have to say at no stage did WotC say you need DDi to play 4E, and I've been having a lot of fun playing it without DDI. What they did say is that 4E will be better because of DDI, and in that regard they are not meeting their marketing expectations.
I'm very happy with the print products (far happier than I was with 3.X), and the editing issues don't bother me a great deal as they are typical of such large word count products (which is why its annoying about the DDI editing issues).
While I hate to admit this, when I bought the books and you did, nothing in them, or about them, made any promise about the DDi, it only said to go online for more tools and goodies. Technically, it didn't even tell you when it would be working.
Wizards is not actually responsible for providing you anything until they start charging for the DDi, then...there is a legal issue that goes into play if they start giving out dates and promises.
Trust me, we won't see either.
If they wanted to do good business, they'd halt production on the books and put more work into D&Di.
"No... If WotC wanted to do good business, they would print books faster, because I want the PHB2 NOW! Since that's not going to happen either, nor do I feel entitled to it, I still want them to get it done in a timely manner, more than I want any DDi software. PHB2 adds to my game immensely, DDi adds to it incrementally, with incremental payments as tagalongs. I'm cool with that, but I want big changes now, more than little changes over time."
3 months now these 4th edition books have sat at my gaming area unused. With noticeable dust, unfortunately. My friends wanted to wait till the DDI tools came out, since that was the major selling point of "upgrading" for our troop. Now? We got tired of waiting, so we're playing White Wolf games.
Why do I feel like were we lied to about DDi? Why does this feel like vapourware, the same way Master Tools ended up over what we were told was a map program issue. Originally they were to be ready at the games release. 3 months later, they're still not all out. Matter of fact, the ones that showed the most promise are still not released.
Why? What could have gone wrong that pushed back release of these tools for 3 months? After seeing the vid clips on those giant convention screens, these tools were the sole reason for my troop to get into the new edition (that and what we thought would be easier rules for stuff like grapple). And it was always talked about how these systems would be ready to go when we got our hands on the books. Even now, I look at the lil ad for DDi that came with my book set. Still nothing.
You haven't talked to the public about this. You haven't admitted that something is amiss in Denmark D&D'sville. And as a company there has been no reasoning given to the fanbase that didn't sound like an insult.
And to see stuff like this:
"D&DI Tools Update
After we launch our D&DI subscription service, the Character Builder will become our #1 priority. First up will be a public Beta test, then a commercial release, and then our development efforts will move onto the Character Visualizer. "
... shows that something happened and we weren't told. Why the deception in regards to the product?
Will you please tell me and anyone else wondering why this lack of development happened?
I can't in good conscience use these books if we are going to become the victims of a bait and switch.
That sort of depends on your definition of lied to really.
The books aren't malfunctioning. Theres no blue screen when opening the book and the game doesn't require you to update drivers. Standing alone, they work fine and perform the function they promised.
However, you could have been mislead if you bought the books under the assumption that online tools would be readily available.
It would be kin to people buying Starcraft 2 and finding out Battle.net wasn't available. Not AS serious since battle.net unlike DDI is not costing you (at least I dont think so at this point) and I think far more people (percentwise) buy a game like that to play online instead of the one player, whereas the greater bulk of D&D players buy the books and see DDI as a fringe benefit, an extra option.
However, some bought 4e FOR that purpose.
I doubt that this was on purpose, but it still is irresponsible on the part of Wizards.
That sort of depends on your definition of lied to really.
The books aren't malfunctioning. Theres no blue screen when opening the book and the game doesn't require you to update drivers. Standing alone, they work fine and perform the function they promised.
However, you could have been mislead if you bought the books under the assumption that online tools would be readily available.
It would be kin to people buying Starcraft 2 and finding out Battle.net wasn't available. Not AS serious since battle.net unlike DDI is not costing you (at least I dont think so at this point) and I think far more people (percentwise) buy a game like that to play online instead of the one player, whereas the greater bulk of D&D players buy the books and see DDI as a fringe benefit, an extra option.
However, some bought 4e FOR that purpose.
I doubt that this was on purpose, but it still is irresponsible on the part of Wizards.
"That'd be a REAL problem if the books became less valid in the months until the tabletop... seriously... If you were going to use them anyway..."
That'd be a REAL problem if the books became less valid in the months until the tabletop... seriously... If you were going to use them anyway...
Some of us have no use for the books without DDI or some other online tool. Whether we're shut-ins or just can't find anyone locally to play with, or only want to play with old college buddies flung to the far corners of the globe. Crazy, maybe. Hard to understand, possibly - nobody on this forum seems to get that point. It's all "Well you can still use the books hurr", and ya know what, that doesn't work out for all of us.
And the problem, for me, with the whole DDI Magic 8-Ball situation is, the guys I want to play with are waiting to see if it's even gonna get released, much less whether it's gonna be worth the subscription. So they're dragging feet on buying something else, and in the meantime, none of us are playing.
Thankfully, I was able to return my copies for quality concerns, but there ARE people who ARE stuck with essentially useless purchases. You might want to think it's just not possible, but it is.
Nobody is saying "the books are broken." At least, not in this thread. Yes, I read the entire thread before posting, and no, I did not find anyone who stated the books were broken. Stop putting words in our mouths, please. Thank you!
Now, having said that, here are the points that the OP and many others are trying to get across. And maybe one or two of my own.
1) WotC advertised DDi. It was a major sales pitch.
2) MANY of us only bought the core product because we expected, based on these videos, to be able to use DDi to play ONLINE with our friends.
3) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's been over 3 months since we blew our $120 (or more) on these books, and we are still not able to do that.
4) We are upset because we actually DO want to play this game but, for a variety of reasons, are unable to get a group together around a table in a single location on a semi-regular basis. But the internet is everywhere.
5) Nobody here, AFAIK, expected to get to use these tools for free, or even cared if there was a subscription. We merely expected them to be available. And again, they are not.
5) I think it's FANTASTIC that a handful of folks have had the chance to try a hands-on demo of these products. That's great for YOU! But for the rest of us, that don't mean squat! We still can't play online with our friends, and we don't anticipate doing this within the foreseeable future.
For those of you who want to call this whining, that's fine. Everyone else has sat back and tolerated the "whiner" comments, or even politely asked fof them to stop. And they did not. I will not be so kind. Perhaps if you take off your blinders and detach your lips from the sphincters of the folks at WotC long enough to actually try and see things from another perspective, you might understand what it is that has so many of us so upset and utterly disappointed with the deception that has been DDi/4th Edition.
I had more to say here, but I'm so damned frustrated with all you folks who seem to think that WotC has done or can do no wrong, that I can no longer bring cohesion to my thoughts.
DDi should never have been promoted in the manner it was, implying that it would be available at the release of the 4E books. Having failed that, the books should never have been released until the highly promoted DDi was available, or at least close to it.
I'm going to restate what many have said, but first let me get this out of the way:
Nobody is saying "the books are broken." At least, not in this thread. Yes, I read the entire thread before posting, and no, I did not find anyone who stated the books were broken. Stop putting words in our mouths, please. Thank you!
Now, having said that, here are the points that the OP and many others are trying to get across. And maybe one or two of my own.
1) WotC advertised DDi. It was a major sales pitch.
2) MANY of us only bought the core product because we expected, based on these videos, to be able to use DDi to play ONLINE with our friends.
3) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's been over 3 months since we blew our $120 (or more) on these books, and we are still not able to do that.
4) We are upset because we actually DO want to play this game but, for a variety of reasons, are unable to get a group together around a table in a single location on a semi-regular basis. But the internet is everywhere.
5) Nobody here, AFAIK, expected to get to use these tools for free, or even cared if there was a subscription. We merely expected them to be available. And again, they are not.
5) I think it's FANTASTIC that a handful of folks have had the chance to try a hands-on demo of these products. That's great for YOU! But for the rest of us, that don't mean squat! We still can't play online with our friends, and we don't anticipate doing this within the foreseeable future.
For those of you who want to call this whining, that's fine. Everyone else has sat back and tolerated the "whiner" comments, or even politely asked fof them to stop. And they did not. I will not be so kind. Perhaps if you take off your blinders and detach your lips from the sphincters of the folks at WotC long enough to actually try and see things from another perspective, you might understand what it is that has so many of us so upset and utterly disappointed with the deception that has been DDi/4th Edition.
I had more to say here, but I'm so damned frustrated with all you folks who seem to think that WotC has done or can do no wrong, that I can no longer bring cohesion to my thoughts.
DDi should never have been promoted in the manner it was, implying that it would be available at the release of the 4E books. Having failed that, the books should never have been released until the highly promoted DDi was available, or at least close to it.
If your main concern is the ability to play online there are many virtual tabletops out there (some free, some paid). They have varying levels of support for 4E, but will get you up and running until the Game Table is ready (and if you like them enough, perhaps after it's ready as well).
You can find a list of those tables and some of their pros/cons here. Check AsmodeusLore's signature for a link to his website which I understand has even more information.
If your main concern is the ability to play online there are many virtual tabletops out there (some free, some paid). They have varying levels of support for 4E, but will get you up and running until the Game Table is ready (and if you like them enough, perhaps after it's ready as well).
You can find a list of those tables and some of their pros/cons here. Check AsmodeusLore's signature for a link to his website which I understand has even more information.
I don’t want to play a third party virtual tabletops, I want to use the official one. No matter how good those are they will never be as easy and accurate as the D&DI one (judging form what’s being advertised). D&DI can’t escape from its responsibility of delivering the Gaming Table just because other third party has their own, and you can’t make me settle or be happy to use those third party virtual tabletops. I, like many others, bought the books just because I was going to be able to play with my group, which now is all spread in different states. WotC has lied to its costumers and now acts like its not if fault and has an arrogant attitude against those who are just asking for what is our right. They offered the Game Table, we bought the book because of that and they breach the contract, or definitely made a false advertisement, which are both illegal. Stop defending the indefendible.
I don’t want to play a third party virtual tabletops, I want to use the official one. No matter how good those are they will never be as easy and accurate as the D&DI one (judging form what’s being advertised). D&DI can’t escape from its responsibility of delivering the Gaming Table just because other third party has their own, and you can’t make me settle or be happy to use those third party virtual tabletops. I, like many others, bought the books just because I was going to be able to play with my group, which now is all spread in different states. WotC has lied to its costumers and now acts like its not if fault and has an arrogant attitude against those who are just asking for what is our right. They offered the Game Table, we bought the book because of that and they breach the contract, or definitely made a false advertisement, which are both illegal. Stop defending the indefendible.
Stop using excessive hyperbole. The game table is not your right. It is a commercial product that isn't ready yet. You do not have any entitlement to the game table until you have paid for it, which you have not done yet because they are not accepting payments just yet(and buying 4th edition books does not count).
I have yet to see WotC act arrogantly over this matter or like it isn't there fault. The whole thing took longer then they expected and they are trying to get the product finished before releasing it. Would you have rather have them release unfinished products that are buggy and untested? Because those are really their options at this point.
There was a delay in the production so the release date had to be pushed back, if that counts as false advertisement then I'm pretty sure that nearly every major retailer that carries software(or at least video games) is guilty as well because I frequently see the release dates on games that I have preordered change. And also what contract did they breach? I don't recall signing any contracts with them when I bought my books.
WotC has lied to its costumers and now acts like its not if fault and has an arrogant attitude against those who are just asking for what is our right.
They didn't lie. They thought that the software would be ready for the release of 4E. They were wrong. It's software, it happens. I also fail to see where they have been demonstrating an "arrogant attitude".
They offered the Game Table, we bought the book because of that and they breach the contract, or definitely made a false advertisement, which are both illegal. Stop defending the indefendible.
Breach of contract?? False advertising??
I believe that I sense a little bit of exaggeration in your words.
Breach of contract would only apply if you had actually paid something for DDI. As of yet, *no-one* has paid anything for DDI, so there can be *no* breach of contract.
As for false advertising, that could only be if you can demonstrate that WotC deliberately kept advertising DDi in the books despite knowing that it wouldn't be ready in time. The lag time between when they have to send the books off to the printer and when they actually got released also prevents that from occuring.
No-one here who is reasonable will try to say that people shouldn't have the right to be upset that WotC didn't provide the DDI tools as promised.
I don’t want to play a third party virtual tabletops, I want to use the official one. No matter how good those are they will never be as easy and accurate as the D&DI one (judging form what’s being advertised).
I'll play Devil's Advocate here a moment.
The Game Table isn't out yet, so you haven't tried it. It could be INCREDIBLY complicated. It could be a sub-par experience.
It sounds like you haven't tried the other game tables either. Some of them (I'm a fan of FantasyGrounds II myself - I use it with some of my online friends, in fact) are actaully very intuitive and straightforward to use (they they do require you to know how to open a port on your firewall, as do most "hosted" applications).
You're *assuming* that the game table is going to be the best product. Whether that's true or not (from what I've seen it appears to be true - I plan to drop FGII for the Game Table when its ready) it's a bit self defeating to say you won't try another product and then kick and scream about the product you want not being ready.
In short - if that's the crux of your argument, the only thing REALLY keeping you from enjoying your books right now is you. That's your right, mind, but if other options exist for online play (for free!) and you turn your nose up at them, you're the one hurting yourself the most. WotC's made its mistakes and contribued, sure, but you're the one holding yourself back.
D&DI can’t escape from its responsibility of delivering the Gaming Table just because other third party has their own, and you can’t make me settle or be happy to use those third party virtual tabletops. I, like many others, bought the books just because I was going to be able to play with my group, which now is all spread in different states.
As above - if the options exist, and you choose to ignore them, you choose not to play online. You're the one holding yourself back. There's nothing wrong with that, but to blame WotC for your decision not to take advantage of existing technology is disingenuous.
WotC has lied to its costumers and now acts like its not if fault and has an arrogant attitude against those who are just asking for what is our right. They offered the Game Table, we bought the book because of that and they breach the contract, or definitely made a false advertisement, which are both illegal. Stop defending the indefendible.
As others (mudbunny especially) have pointed out, they've breeched no contract, because nobody HAS a contract with them. False advertising *may* apply, though I don't think it was malicious in nature. I believe they were simply over-eager and they've been bitten for it.
Now they're being far more cautious in their approach (not promising release dates, guarding their comments by far and large about progress, etc) and for that they're called arrogant. This puts them in a lose-lose situation.
If they say "we think we'll have component x ready in a few weeks" and miss that deadline, they're strung up by consumers for "lying". If they don't give any estimates they're strung up for being arrogant, non-communicative, and other things.
Where is the incentive for them to behave differently when no matter what they do, they're wrong?
We did pay for the books because we would be able to play online, for some of us, that was the only reason …. now they try to hide behind the shield that D&DI is a different product, when the reality is that they announce them as a whole package. Like stated on the thread, I don’t really care if I have to pay for a subscription later, but I wouldn’t have bought the book if I knew the Game Table wasn’t ready.
They would only be a single package if you got a free subscription to D&Di when you bought the books. D&Di was designed for use with 4th edition, but they still are and always have been seperte products.
We did pay for the books because we would be able to play online, for some of us, that was the only reason …. now they try to hide behind the shield that D&DI is a different product, when the reality is that they announce them as a whole package.
They are separate products. DDI is an accessory to the tabletop RPG. YOu don't need DDI to play D&D. What the table top does is expand the ways in which you can play D&D.
Like stated on the thread, I don’t really care if I have to pay for a subscription later, but I wouldn’t have bought the book if I knew the Game Table wasn’t ready.
And you have my complete sympathy. I really do understand your anger about this. However, at this point, there is not a whole lot that can be done.
If your main concern is the ability to play online there are many virtual tabletops out there (some free, some paid). They have varying levels of support for 4E, but will get you up and running until the Game Table is ready (and if you like them enough, perhaps after it's ready as well).
You can find a list of those tables and some of their pros/cons here. Check AsmodeusLore's signature for a link to his website which I understand has even more information.
That's not good enough. And I will explain.
I own several hundred dollars worth of 1st, 2nd, 3rd AND 3.5E books. If I just wanted to use some 3rd party interface to play online, I didn't need to buy a totally new edition of the game to be able to do that. I didn't buy it because I wanted to learn a new version of the game, which to me doesn't feel like D&D as I know it at all (neither did 3/3.5, but I'll digress for now, and come back to this in a moment). I definitely didn't buy it because all my friends wanted to learn an entirely new system, because they DON'T. I bought it because I wanted a quick and easy way to hop online and play with my friends. I bought it because of the online services that WotC so heavily promoted as being available at the new edition's launch.
So no, it's not good enough to have to use some FAN-BUILT program do what we was promised WotC would make available.
Back to my tangent briefly. Why does WotC feel the need to completely change D&D? I've looked at the history of other systems which have seen numerous editions, and AFAIK none of them have made such radical changes to their core as to not be compatible at all with their previous iterations. Heck, even when TSR shifted from 1st to 2nd, and then added that "skills and powers" crap, it was the same CORE system. I still saw folks running around with their 1st edition barbarians, kensai and badass bards, because they still worked within the rules of the system. Of course, it was DM's prerogative to allow or disallow these old school characters, but it was still possible. Heck, in this edition we're not even going to have any realistic way to CONVERT our previous edition characters over! 3E and 4E are completely new games, and as such they shouldn't have been called D&D. But that's IMHO, and I will now digress. No need to respond to this portion, just a rant I had to get off my chest! :P
They didn't lie. They thought that the software would be ready for the release of 4E. They were wrong. It's software, it happens. I also fail to see where they have been demonstrating an "arrogant attitude".
Breach of contract?? False advertising??
I believe that I sense a little bit of exaggeration in your words.
Breach of contract would only apply if you had actually paid something for DDI. As of yet, *no-one* has paid anything for DDI, so there can be *no* breach of contract.
As for false advertising, that could only be if you can demonstrate that WotC deliberately kept advertising DDi in the books despite knowing that it wouldn't be ready in time. The lag time between when they have to send the books off to the printer and when they actually got released also prevents that from occuring.
No-one here who is reasonable will try to say that people shouldn't have the right to be upset that WotC didn't provide the DDI tools as promised.
Hey, ya know what? Yes, they did lie. You can't honestly tell me that they didn't have a clue that 3 months, 2 months, 1 month, or even a couple weeks before the release of 4E that the software they were promising wasn't going to be ready!? Poppycock! They could've come out and said "hey, uh, yeah. That DDi thing that we've been telling you all was gonna be ready when we ship out the books... Yeah, that's not ready." But they didn't tell us. They let us believe that it was going to be ready. No, they LED US to believe it was going to be ready. And that's dishonesty. That's lying.
Breach of contract? Definitely a poor choice of words on that individual's part. False advertising... Absolutely. Do software companies push back their product all the time? Yes. But they don't wait until release day to tell you! They know in advance and let their fans know what's going on! From what I've seen, WotC doesn't give a poopy about the D&D fans. All they care about is taking our money. I submit that the reason they did NOT tell folks that this DDi would not be available is because they KNEW that a lot of people who would be buying the 4E products specifically for DDi would not shell out a C-note if DDi wasn't available. They're money-grubbing corporate jerks.
I didn't buy it because I wanted to learn a new version of the game, which to me doesn't feel like D&D as I know it at all (neither did 3/3.5, but I'll digress for now, and come back to this in a moment). I definitely didn't buy it because all my friends wanted to learn an entirely new system, because they DON'T. I bought it because I wanted a quick and easy way to hop online and play with my friends. I bought it because of the online services that WotC so heavily promoted as being available at the new edition's launch.
Just a side note, you didn't "need" to buy 4e to use D&Di. The only part of the online gaming part of the D&Di that is 4e exclusive is the Character builder. They have stated (even early in the advertisement) that the Game Table will not adjudicate the rules. Letting groups play any system they want on the table (though until it is out, how easy it will be is still to be determined). The Dungeon builder and Character visualizer are also not specific to 4e, though the Visualizer may be a little bit more unforgiving when trying to make a visual representation of a character from an earlier edition or other system (Half-orc springs to mind).
Now I know that doesn't help with the WotC advertised them together, and we bought them and now there is nothing to use them with. It's just a little information.
Seperate products? Yes. Mislead? Did they promote them together? Yes. This would be like promoting two action figures, a hero and a villain, but then only releasing the hero. They are two separate products, but they were intended to be used together. Sure, you can play with the one action figure by itself, but little Timmy is gonna be upset because he wanted to battle against the villain, not his sister's dollies!
Some of the folk here are kinda mushing up their arguments. Their frustrated and angry. And they have every right to be so. Their anger is justified. Try seeing WHY they are angry, rather than picking apart their occasionally poorly formed posts.
The analogy doesn't really work because in it, you need the villian to play with them "properly". You can play D&D "properly" without D&Di as many players have for three or so months. A better version would be if there was a regular version of the villian action figure released and they were pushing back a special edition version of the villian.
And while some people are justified, the vast majority that I have seen are hating something because they only have partial information, and I'm just trying to fill the in the gaps or stop the spread of incorrect information.*shrugs* Or at least that is what I mean to do, I don't know if I am actually doing a good job of that or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_agreement
This is just to explain why breach of contract is not a poor choice of words. About my other arguments, I will explain myself no more. This is just a plain waste of my time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_agreement
This is just to explain why breach of contract is not a poor choice of words.
If people had paid for DDi, you would have an argument. However, no one has, so it isn't appropriate.
:shrug:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_agreement
This is just to explain why breach of contract is not a poor choice of words. About my other arguments, I will explain myself no more. This is just a plain waste of my time.
If you read those links you'll see you're proving why they ARE a bad choice of word.
There was no binding agreement between WotC and you. You weren't bound to them (ala a payment system) nor were they to you (deliver of goods based on payment).
They said that they'd have a product out, but weren't bound to deliver becasue there was no consideration [wikipedia] given back.
As WolfStar has said, there are many Third-Party systems. "It can never be as good"? Looks like you've made up your mind before actually trying anything out. That's too bad. There's a link in my Sig for Asmodeus' site, which I highly recommend, as the stuff is sooooo easy to use, the people are incredibly friendly and helpful, and the games are creative and fun. Instead of complaining about DDi, I simply went to the General Forums, asked about if/when we'd get the VTT, and instead was given alternatives, as VTT is still being debugged. Now I'm having a grand old time, and online.
As for people yelling about the subscription costs: Since when is 60 dollars a YEAR a horrid amount for TWO magazines?? [sarcasm]What? AND it comes with really useful Tools, including the Super-Compendium????
[/sarcasm] Seriously X-Box live costs 50 a year, just to play online. Nothing else. This is TWO products with lots of goodies added on for 10 bucks extra! I know that I will be glad to pay for two downloadable magazines that give me awesome new stuff in every edition for a bargain price.I was willing to give this new edition a shot. All of us here were. Whether or not we liked the changes, we wanted to give it a chance. But we were lied to, and we're insulted. And WotC doesn't care. They don't care that they're driving away a good portion of their long-term fan-base. And by "their fan-base" I mean D&D's fans, not WotC's. Their spitting in our faces, and their representatives (such as you) are telling us we should be happy about it. We're not.
What you fail to grasp is that the biggest selling point for 4E for so many of us was DDi. It was supposed to be a nice and neatly packaged product that we could just plug into and escape to our fantasy worlds. And it doesn't exist, not in any way that matters. Yes, there are these other 3rd party software programs that we can use, but it's like comparing Windows to Linux. Certainly both can do the job, but one is slicker and easier to use while the other requires a degree of work. I don't want to work to play. :p
If WotC really gave a poop about the fans, it wouldn't just say "COMING SOON" on the DDi product links. It would continue, saying something like "We at Wizards of the Coast would like to apologize to our fans. Due to some unforeseen difficulties, this product is not quite finished. Please be aware that we are working VERY hard to make this product ready, and to make it all that we've promised it would be. We understand that many of you are disappointed, and so are we. For expected release date and/or information on the current status of these products, . We will be updating this information on a weekly (or bi-weekly) basis. Once again, we are sorry for the inconvenience, and thank you all for supporting us."
Remember that it's good policy to actually assume responsibility for your mistakes, even if they're NOT your mistakes. Pretend you care! I don't know how many times I've had to take responsibility for mistakes that MY company has made which had nothing to do with me. You say and do what you have to to make the customer feel better. Basic customer service here!
You don't get it WolfStar, and that's just fine. You're blinded by the fact that you represent WotC here on the forums, and so they can do no wrong. At least, that has to be your stance if you want to continue to represent them. Good for you! :D
You have no idea how wrong that statement is. Allow me to just say that WOtC has put *very* few restrictions on what VCLs and NGs can and cannot say about WotC products. We are allowed to have negative opinions, we are allowed to present negative opinions. Check my sig for a link to the VCL (and FG/NG) Handbook that describes the duties and responsibilities of VCLs and NGs. Being WotC cheerleaders is *not* listed there.
I was willing to give this new edition a shot. All of us here were. Whether or not we liked the changes, we wanted to give it a chance. But we were lied to, and we're insulted. And WotC doesn't care. They don't care that they're driving away a good portion of their long-term fan-base. And by "their fan-base" I mean D&D's fans, not WotC's. Their spitting in our faces, and their representatives (such as you) are telling us we should be happy about it. We're not.
Please explain how WotC "lied" to you and how they are "spitting" in your face and how we are teloing you that you should be "happy with it."
You don't get it WolfStar, and that's just fine. You're blinded by the fact that you represent WotC here on the forums, and so they can do no wrong. At least, that has to be your stance if you want to continue to represent them. Good for you! :D
I represent only myself. My status of News Guide and/or VCL are tasks given me as a volunteer. I receive no recompense from WotC for the tasks, and I'm free to walk away from them at any time.
I was willing to give this new edition a shot. All of us here were. Whether or not we liked the changes, we wanted to give it a chance. But we were lied to, and we're insulted. And WotC doesn't care. They don't care that they're driving away a good portion of their long-term fan-base. And by "their fan-base" I mean D&D's fans, not WotC's. Their spitting in our faces, and their representatives (such as you) are telling us we should be happy about it. We're not.
You see lies, I see an error in judgement. Agree to disagree. I fail to see how they're spitting in your face. That's emotional hyperbole unless someone from WotC has deliberately maligned you.
I encourage people to express their discontent at the Game Table not being ready - I'm disappointed as well. You don't volunteer to be a DDI news guide without REALLY wanting the product to be available.
The crux of the issue seems to be that for you DDI is a "core" part of 4E. WotC has, since the first public announcement, made it clear it to them it's an add-on. Usually touting the "DVD Bonus Disc" analogy where 4E = a movie on DVD, and DDI is the "extras" - things like commentary, behind the scenes, bios, etc. You don't NEED the bonus disc to enjoy the movie, but it can certainly enhance your enjoyment. (Or am I the only geek that watches movies with director commentary? )
What you fail to grasp is that the biggest selling point for 4E for so many of us was DDi. It was supposed to be a nice and neatly packaged product that we could just plug into and escape to our fantasy worlds. And it doesn't exist, not in any way that matters. Yes, there are these other 3rd party software programs that we can use, but it's like comparing Windows to Linux. Certainly both can do the job, but one is slicker and easier to use while the other requires a degree of work. I don't want to work to play. :p
You are, perhaps, the third or fourth person I've heard for whom the motivating force behind 4E was DDI. Admittedly, that makes your loss no less.
That said, you think we're underestimating how many people bought DDI for 4E. I'd counter that by saying I think you're greatly OVER-inflating the number of people for whom that was true - and I think the market bears this truth. I've no hard numbers to back it up however (though I can say that play numbers for 4E and new RPGA memberships are up following 4E, and the RPGA at GenCon grew something like 10% this year - no small feat, and ALL RPGa activity was 4E), so we'll agree to disagree here.
If WotC really gave a poop about the fans, it wouldn't just say "COMING SOON" on the DDi product links. It would continue, saying something like "We at Wizards of the Coast would like to apologize to our fans. Due to some unforeseen difficulties, this product is not quite finished. Please be aware that we are working VERY hard to make this product ready, and to make it all that we've promised it would be. We understand that many of you are disappointed, and so are we. For expected release date and/or information on the current status of these products, . We will be updating this information on a weekly (or bi-weekly) basis. Once again, we are sorry for the inconvenience, and thank you all for supporting us."
And I said stated before, if they post even ESTIMATED release dates, and miss they, they'll be hung out to dry by upset customers - again. Even if they put it in bold "THESE DATES SUBJECT TO CHANGE" after every release, people would look to even one missed date and shout "WotC can't manage a product!" then we're right back here again.
I can hardly fault them for playing it safe at this point.
I'd *love* a solid release date - probably even more than you (again, you don't become a DDI News Guide by being ambivalent about the product), but I can't blame for being burned by their earlier mistake and being overly cautious now.
Remember that it's good policy to actually assume responsibility for your mistakes, even if they're NOT your mistakes. Pretend you care! I don't know how many times I've had to take responsibility for mistakes that MY company has made which had nothing to do with me. You say and do what you have to to make the customer feel better. Basic customer service here!
And what would make you feel better?
Let's say tomorrow they say "Boy, we're really sorry that we missed the DDI launch" (and I think they've said as much, but I've a meeting I'm already late for and don't have time to seach - mudbunny - any help?) Would you suddenly feel better about everything?
Or are you simply going to be upset (again, understandably) until the product IS available?
I'm being earnest here. What, short of releasing the product (that they can't do until its done) or giving an estimated release (which they won't do because of too much negative feedback if they miss that date), can they say or do to make you, personally, feel better?
The analogy doesn't really work because in it, you need the villian to play with them "properly". You can play D&D "properly" without D&Di as many players have for three or so months. A better version would be if there was a regular version of the villian action figure released and they were pushing back a special edition version of the villian.
And while some people are justified, the vast majority that I have seen are hating something because they only have partial information, and I'm just trying to fill the in the gaps or stop the spread of incorrect information.*shrugs* Or at least that is what I mean to do, I don't know if I am actually doing a good job of that or not.
Hey, that's great. You want to help fill people in? Good for you! You're making more effort than WotC is! There should be information available at www.dndinsider.com, we shouldn't have to scour the forums to find snippets here and there!
And your analogy of the "special edition" villain is also wrong. So to be more accurate, it would be like advertising a hero, a villain, and a playset, and then not making the playset available. Certainly you can play with just the hero and villain, but you were really looking forward to battling it out in the playset. Now you have to get cardboard boxes and do arts and crafts to make your own (i.e. 3rd party software). Some kids might want to do that, but many want the darned playset! And Hasbro let them down!
Let's say tomorrow they say "Boy, we're really sorry that we missed the DDI launch" (and I think they've said as much, but I've a meeting I'm already late for and don't have time to seach - mudbunny - any help?) Would you suddenly feel better about everything?
As seTiny mentioned here on the 7th of may, WotC posted two articles indicating that DDi would not be ready.
A Generic one here
[indent]
Show
Wizards of the Coast, Inc. announced today that the planned beta release of D&D Insider kicks off with the switch to 4th Edition content for the Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, set to coincide with the launch of D&D 4th Edition. The planned beta period is free, and in addition to the online magazines the beta will include the first iteration of the D&D Rules Compendium, an online resource for players and Dungeon Masters of the world’s greatest fantasy roleplaying game. Other D&D Insider components will roll out as they become available.
"We’re extremely excited to have both analog and digital components come together for D&D 4th Edition," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager for D&D. "Through the free beta period, we encourage fans to help us make improvements to the suite of digital components offered through D&D Insider."
The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.
After the initial beta period concludes, Wizards of the Coast will offer a special introductory price for a limited time. "When the special introductory price period comes to an end, the regular price of $14.95 per month for the entire suite of components goes into effect," said Rouse. "And, as we’ve previously announced, there will be discounts based on longer subscription commitments."
"We’re extremely excited to have both analog and digital components come together for D&D 4th Edition," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager for D&D. "Through the free beta period, we encourage fans to help us make improvements to the suite of digital components offered through D&D Insider."
The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.
After the initial beta period concludes, Wizards of the Coast will offer a special introductory price for a limited time. "When the special introductory price period comes to an end, the regular price of $14.95 per month for the entire suite of components goes into effect," said Rouse. "And, as we’ve previously announced, there will be discounts based on longer subscription commitments."
Crimson Lance, welcome to the DDi forums.
I appreciate your posting in support of WotC and their efforts. However, I would really appreciate it if the tone that you used when talking at other posters was less aggressive and confrontational. I, my news guides and the regulars in the DDI forums, despite significant differences in opinion that exist, all work very hard to keep our little sections of the forums welcoming and open to differing viewpoints.
I (and many others) do not want there to be the same animosity, tone and general feeling of "us vs them" that seems to be prevalent in the 4E general Discussion forum.
Thanks.
Takes off VCL hat
Thanks for giving me some PoV here. Appreciate it.
There should be information available at www.dndinsider.com, we shouldn't have to scour the forums to find snippets here and there!
There is a weekly article written by Randy Buehler in the D&Di News section.
Excerpt from the first one:
[INDENT]Every week I’ll be posting an update here about the ongoing progress of D&DI. I’ll also be doing my best to give you guys sneak peeks about what’s coming down the line, glimpses at how things are getting done, and visibility into the flavor of what it’s like to work on such an awesome game.[/INDENT]
You can find them here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/news.
D&Di #1
D&Di #2
D&Di #3
D&Di #4
D&Di #5
D&Di #6
D&Di #7
Ok, the D&DI page. agreed.
The marketing efforts... What efforts had you seen since the announcement in ampersand and now have you seen that still tried to up-play the digital offerings? Everything I've seen has been for the books, or for the digital stuff that was available (Magazines, compendium, bonus tools). There have been attempts at keeping us informed about the other digital stuff, such as the weekly newsletter from Randy, but I've not seen anything that tried to promote the things that weren't ready. The closest I have seen is the displays of the work in process at the various conventions. Do you count those? I am discounting them because it was made pretty clear that they were still in progress to anyone who saw them.
Maybe you've seen something I didn't?
I wasn't referring to post launch marketing. I was referring to the marketing pre launch, specifically that month between the ampersand notice and the 4e launch. That is where I think WotC really set the wrong expectations and helped sow the ill will they are reaping now . IMO they knew they wouldn't be ready much more than a month before the launch.
Currently, I think things are moving in the right direction if only very slowly. It’s going to take quite a bit to regain my trust (and money).
I really would love to see some of belefauntes ideas turned into action by the staff. And, if possible a calendar with at least month when D&DI thinks the tools are going to be available, this would show some real commitment to the gamers.
I think WoTC is adverse to giving any kind of date because they know if they miss it, it will be held to their throat like some kind of dagger.
I'd like to see the calendar as well, but I doubt it will happen, and I can't blame WotC for that. Sure, most people are understanding about these things, but enough people will be vocal about 'missed deadlines' and 'broken promises' that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.
Wow...look away for a few hours and the thread exploded.
I think WoTC is adverse to giving any kind of date because they know if they miss it, it will be held to their throat like some kind of dagger.
I have to concur. I would totally love to see speculated release dates, but I know that less understanding people would go ballistic when these "promises" aren't met, and even those who ARE sympathetic and understanding would feel pangs of disappointment. I know I let the "release date" idea slip out passively in one of my suggestions, but in retrospect I think that aspect of the suggestion would be a bad idea. The rest of the thought, however, I still believe to be sound, good advice.
But of course I think that... I said it! :D
I'd like to see the calendar as well, but I doubt it will happen, and I can't blame WotC for that. Sure, most people are understanding about these things, but enough people will be vocal about 'missed deadlines' and 'broken promises' that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.
The only way a calendar would work is if WotC followed the Scotty method of estimating completion dates and doubled their expected times-to-complete so as to appear as miracle workers when they arrive early (Insert Star Trek reference here - think its Wrath of Khan but could be wrong:D ).
Seriously, though, the major issue here as I've posted elsewhere has been raised expectations. The D&DI online tools were hyped as part of the whole 4E package and weren't ready in time. This was a mistake but that said, as soon as WotC realised this they posted notices to that effect and suspended any plans to charge for subscriptions. I have personally found the free content to be of the highest quality and certainly to rival that of the recent glory days of the print versions of Dungeon and Dragon. I sympathise with those who need the online tools for their games but would reiterate what others have already said about other tools that are available. The system itself works brilliantly as a PnP system on its own (I don't even use minis). Give it a go with another game table tool if you can.
The only way a calendar would work is if WotC followed the Scotty method of estimating completion dates and doubled their expected times-to-complete so as to appear as miracle workers when they arrive early (Insert Star Trek reference here - think its Wrath of Khan but could be wrong:D ).
I don't know about Wrath of Khan, but I do know that when he appeared on ST: TNG, LaForge told Picard how long something would take, and Scotty replied, with disbelief "Ye dinnae tell him how long it would really take!? You've got a lot ta learn if ye want people to think of ye as a miracle worker!"
I don't know about Wrath of Khan, but I do know that when he appeared on ST: TNG, LaForge told Picard how long something would take, and Scotty replied, with disbelief "Ye dinnae tell him how long it would really take!? You've got a lot ta learn if ye want people to think of ye as a miracle worker!"
Without turning this into a Star Trek thread, the all knowing Wiki says that the 'Scotty Factor' is a factor of four (not doubling as I said) and is first mentioned in The Search for Spock (see link).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Scott
The TNG reference hearkens back to the earlier film reference.
To steer this slightly back to topic, shame Scotty (aka James Doohan) has shuffled off this mortal coil else he could have been called in to fix D&DI in a week or two (or four) :D .
Without turning this into a Star Trek thread, the all knowing Wiki says that the 'Scotty Factor' is a factor of four (not doubling as I said) and is first mentioned in The Search for Spock (see link).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_Scott
The TNG reference hearkens back to the earlier film reference.
To steer this slightly back to topic, shame Scotty (aka James Doohan) has shuffled off this mortal coil else he could have been called in to fix D&DI in a week or two (or four) :D .
Aha! That must be why the D&DI software isn't ready yet. Clearly, WotC has run out of Dilithium Crystals and needs a new warp core.
I do not blame the individual programmers/writers and other people for being late. However, why is the company not held responsible? That is the question that I find so perplexing. It seems to be a general pattern of latency from society to just "accept it as the way it is," rather than demand that what they've been told be held to the level of truth. A level of truthfulness. That should not be difficult. (Well, maybe if you're five and you mixed the dog food in with the ice cream and was asked if you did it. But, not when it comes to companies using people's money.)
If I am told something by someone, I would expect it to be the truth. Perhaps, that's naive. But, at least it's an optimistic approach. Now, if I'm told by a company something, I shouldn't say, "Well, what they're working on is complicated," or "It's a company and they all lie." No, I should demand (because I am the consumer and they are at our mercy - not the other way around) that they be truthful. The same should be true for government, car companies, iPod dealers, etc...
All I am saying is the people who "whine" should not be berrated or have that held against them. They should be applauded. I do not have the patience to do the job they do. I just pay, wait, and wait, and wait, and then eventually hope the product comes out. But, the whiners are the ones that force the issue. And if it weren't for them, then you might see companies take an even bigger advantage of their consumers than what they already do.
So cheers to the whiners. May their tongue and fingers never tire. Thank you.
Take your post, PnP. Very well thought out and quite well-written, even if I do believe it is based on an incorrect hypothesis. Yet, instead of targeting you with insults or anything, I answer with my opinion on the subject, trying to keep things civil so that something can actually move forward here. Complaining never hurt anyone, as long as you did something about it. It's the stagnancy of whiners that ends up slowing the rest of us down, because then we have to deal with the problems at hand AND the guys yankin' on our arms trying to tell us things we already know! And that's just a bad position to be in.
Do software companies push back their product all the time? Yes. But they don't wait until release day to tell you!
Working in software and game sales for over 8 years i have seen many a game or softare not release on the day advertised. I have also seen many a game not released and the company not tell anyone, including hte people that are selling it that is not going to be released until after the day has come and gone.
Prime Example: Masters of Orion 3. The day of game release i had people waiting to purchase that game waiting outside my stores door day of scheduled release. Open the store UPS shows with shipments. No Master of Orion in sight. I check the computer and it still lists release day as the current date. 3 days later we get a email form the company saying it got pushed back 2 months.
I have seen this happen with at least 2 games every year. R&D doesnt always talk to marketing. Marketing doesnt always talk to R&D. It sucks and its stupid but thats they way things happen. And every company has the same issues. Some are just better at hiding it then others.
The person/people attacking them are defending the rights of the company who lied. Why? I have no idea!
Because that's what Loyalists do. They are loyal to the end, without question or pause. WOTC is under attack by whiners, and loyalists must stand together to verbally fight for the Motherland...er, Mother Company. So, Loyalists, join with me in the...
D&D Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge allegiance to The Wizards of the Coasts of Hasbro
And to the subscription, for which it charges*
One edition under the VCL
Uncommunicative
With empty promises and delays for all
* Only $14.95 per month. Er, no, $7.95 per month for e-magazine content that too few people subscribed to in print to sustain. So I guess that means the price of loyalty is half-off when it comes to web content.
So cheers to the whiners. May their tongue and fingers never tire. Thank you.
There is a difference between Whiners, and people who give Constructive Critisism. I'll not cheer for the whiners, but I'll cheer the others.
Because that's what Loyalists do. They are loyal to the end, without question or pause.
Then there are the Loyalists. They are opposed by the people who have used a company's products, and found the quality to be satisfactory enough, that they are willing to continue using that product, so long as the value remains in tact.
I like to think that the Loyalists and the Whiners cancel eachother out, leaving behind the people who actually evaluate whats going on, and make reasonable, well informed opinions, for good or bad. Typically, these people recognize the faults and applaud the successes. Those are the people who I usually try to follow and pay the most attention to.
And if I may be indulged for waxing poetic here, I think that inside of every whiner, every loyalist, and everyone who doesn't fit into either, they all wear the title of Gamer. That overrides the other titles as far as I'm concerned, and that gives them the right to come here and say whatever they so desire.
If you want to cheer for someone, or pledge allegience to someone, I say cheer for the gamers. They are the ones who are trying to make life just a little bit more fun. And nothing is going to stop them from doing just that.
I like to think that the Loyalists and the Whiners cancel eachother out, leaving behind the people who actually evaluate whats going on, and make reasonable, well informed opinions, for good or bad. Typically, these people recognize the faults and applaud the successes. Those are the people who I usually try to follow and pay the most attention to...
...they all wear the title of Gamer. That overrides the other titles as far as I'm concerned, and that gives them the right to come here and say whatever they so desire.
If you want to cheer for someone, or pledge allegience to someone, I say cheer for the gamers.
Hear Hear!
*Kyros Tachyus has officially joined the AsmodeusLore fanclub*
*Kyros Tachyus has officially joined the AsmodeusLore fanclub*
Woot! Another soul to join my army of hell!
mwahaha.
Working in software and game sales for over 8 years i have seen many a game or softare not release on the day advertised. I have also seen many a game not released and the company not tell anyone, including hte people that are selling it that is not going to be released until after the day has come and gone.
Prime Example: Masters of Orion 3. The day of game release i had people waiting to purchase that game waiting outside my stores door day of scheduled release. Open the store UPS shows with shipments. No Master of Orion in sight. I check the computer and it still lists release day as the current date. 3 days later we get a email form the company saying it got pushed back 2 months.
I have seen this happen with at least 2 games every year. R&D doesnt always talk to marketing. Marketing doesnt always talk to R&D. It sucks and its stupid but thats they way things happen. And every company has the same issues. Some are just better at hiding it then others.
Okay, so I made a bold statement without actually researching it. Oops, my bad. I, personally, have never had such an experience.
Having experienced this yourself, did you think it was right of the company(s) to do this? Were they justified in their lack of communication to you, the reseller, and to the customers/fans awaiting their product release? While my statement may not have been entirely factual, I submit that the my stance on the issue was/is still sound. ;)
Please Allow Me to Introduce Myself, I'm a Man of Wealth and Taste...
But anyways, getting back to the topic at hand.
I'm not going to forgive WotC for not delivering on time. But I still recognize that complaining about it now won't change the past.
The only thing I can do right now is be patient, and when they are released, evaluate whether the product is good enough to justify the missed dates. Given the quality of work I've seen so far, I'm cautiously optimistic.
But I do want to say that I bought the 4E books for the expected online tools, it is very hard for me to get together and play pnp games with friends. The online tools made a promise that I would be able to play DnD online and they lied or failed. So far anyway.
So basically this is my good bye. As soon as the free magazine content dries up (which is actually pretty cool BTW) I will not be making my daily visit to the WoTC site. As a matter of fact, I think I'll just say bye for now and check back in in about 6 mos. Maybe by then everything will be worked out. But I doubt it.
Please don't leave the forum. There are numerous other parts of DDi (Compendium, encounter builder, Dungeon/Dragon Magazines) that are being discussed and your input would be greatly appreciated.
Apparently they're only valued when that input is in favor of WoTC and in no way related to feeling cheated by them, for what others have called here a breech of contract.
I have stopped posting altogether and have quit coming to this board more than one time a week now over the often rabid and somewhat unfair defense of a company who has been letting it's fanbase down for the past 3 months (and many times before that {See Master Tools/eTools} ).
Not to mention folks like yourself refusing to accept that maybe... just maybe people have a right to feel cheated by WoTC about this issue. May I direct you to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqwFnyxu-OA . That's a not too far off interpretation of how this thread has read so far, in terms of: Volunteers, Pious fans V.S. The rest of us. With non-net users not understanding why the online tools were so important to long distance games, in the first place.
I know there's other playboards out there for the net, as I've helped the idea process along for a few of them over the years. But I had a piece of advertising from WoTC stating DDI would be ready, before I bought my books. Youtube videos from conventions here in 08 stating the same. And nothing was posted at the store about the delay, the clerks didn't know, managers didn't know and no signs were made to put along with the advertising posters about this delay.
Whether or not they announced on this forum about it is moot. They did not bother to make a statement to include with the books, or at the stores that stated they'd be late on it.
What sort of effort would you have liked to see? They had no way of recalling the books at that point, or directly contacting everyone who bought one. I've been thinking about this too, and I can't come up with any better solution than what they did. They posted the news on their website, and have included as much information as they can in the weekly news letters.
Short of a post directly on the main page, I don't know what else they could have done.
This is actually something I have done for a living in the past. Damage Control. Let me explain a few things that could have been done.
1. The major stores and distribution centers selling the sets, posting ad posters, etc. could have been given another small piece of ad stating DDi would be late in releasing. This recently happened with the video game Fable II (their collectors edition no longer has the collectors items or box) and it's very visible. Because of these small signs, it's now common knowledge online at every major gaming site, without having to go to Fable's forum. It's also on EBGames website, and an automated callback was issued to all it's customers who pre-ordered all from these ads.
2. DDi's page currently reads like a zine advertisement. A direct approach admitting they screwed up would have been appreciated at launch. Instead people had to find this gleemax community to get to the knitty gritty. And days of "Where's the launch button for DDi at?".
3. Making notices on all the larger gaming sites before launch and announcing in a D&D Newsletter fashion TO DISTRIBUTORS AND GAMESHOPS (not the public e-mail) would have also helped out (things like this are relatively simple to do for newsletter lists).
And with that rather long commentary, I'm done on the issue.
My 4e books: are in a dustbag till I can pawn them off on someone.
My gaming cash: has happily went to white wolf games since launch and will stay there till DDi is released in full.
Apparently they're only valued when that input is in favor of WoTC and in no way related to feeling cheated by them, for what others have called here a breech of contract.
You do realize that Belafuentes, whom I was responding to, was angry at the fact that DDI had not been released on time, right??
Not to mention folks like yourself refusing to accept that maybe... just maybe people have a right to feel cheated by WoTC about this issue.
Before you accuse me of ignoring a part of the DDI community, you might want to go read some of my posts. I have always said that I understand why people are angry with the full suite of tools not being released when they had been announced. I have said myself that WotC screwed up in not having the tools out on time.
If you checked the updates, Randy Beuhler posted a nice little article that basically went, "Everything the Forum Guys Said is Right, So We're Fixing Everything. Sorry We Let You All Down."
I could say more, but it would be personal, and on the 'Net, that's just a waste of pixels.
I have said myself that WotC screwed up in not having the tools out on time.
I'm not upset that the tools were not out on time. Its a software thing, that stuff usally gets pushed back, ect..
What I am upset with is how WOTC handled the whole thing. They knew 3 months in advance that the tools would not be ready. But they still kept promoting that the tools would be out on time.
Then when the launch of the 4th ed books, each one with a big full page ad in the back telling you to try DDi now, they still said NOTHING to the gaming public on the matter for 2 months. They had Ken troop post basically saying "i'm going fix this, post your issues and I'll make sure we look at them. I will personally keep coming here, giving you updates, feedback ect." Then he bascailly never posted again.
If I was a brand new DnD player and wanted to try this DDi thing, I go to the site and have to literally hunt for info on why its not up, instead of having the info posted on the DnD main page, it would have totally turned me off to the hobby.
I will never forget how WOTC mislead the public about this and they have a very long way to regain my trust about anything. I do feel that WOTC lied to everyone.
I'm not upset that the tools were not out on time. Its a software thing, that stuff usally gets pushed back, ect..
What I am upset with is how WOTC handled the whole thing. They knew 3 months in advance that the tools would not be ready. But they still kept promoting that the tools would be out on time.
Then when the launch of the 4th ed books, each one with a big full page ad in the back telling you to try DDi now, they still said NOTHING to the gaming public on the matter for 2 months. They had Ken troop post basically saying "i'm going fix this, post your issues and I'll make sure we look at them. I will personally keep coming here, giving you updates, feedback ect." Then he bascailly never posted again.
If I was a brand new DnD player and wanted to try this DDi thing, I go to the site and have to literally hunt for info on why its not up, instead of having the info posted on the DnD main page, it would have totally turned me off to the hobby.
I will never forget how WOTC mislead the public about this and they have a very long way to regain my trust about anything.
Agreed. I love this company, but they really messed this up in every way they could have. I agree with KM in that they deliberately mislead the gaming public in the whole matter. Still not happy about it.
And yet again I must reiterate... *ahem*
"KEN TROOP OMG WHERE?!?!"
We got tired of waiting, so we're playing White Wolf games.
Question for OP
When did White Wolf publish a Game Table?
Question for OP
When did White Wolf publish a Game Table?
I think he meant they prefer any other System to 4E, and the only reason they bought all three books was under the misguided assumption that doing so "buys" you into the online Game Table. Which is really weird, 'cause on the website where I play using a VTT, people play all kinds of things, from 4E and 3.5, to White Wold and Warhammer 40k. But, hey, whatever makes you feel better, right?
Your point is well taken, and you are correct in stating a well thought post should include things that the company and/or person should have done. I agree with you completely.
You should understand though, that it's the whiner, who often makes things move - not the constructive people. Granted, I am sure you'll point out that this bogs all of us down. I agree. However, if you look at the corporate world, gaming world, haggling world, whatever, you will often see that whiners get their way and force the companies to do the right thing; whether it be through law-suits or fear of looking bad. (I am also aware that they also get them to do very dumb things - like state that coffee is hot!) But, in the end, it is whiners, however annoying they are, that often get things to move.
I am glad I am not one of them, and to be truthful, I don't enjoy being around them socially either. But, after having watched them, they are a part of the "movers and shakers" of the world. And I merely wished to acknowledge that.
So how about this. Cheers to the optimists, pessimists, whiners, silent-warriors, and carpet rugs everywhere! May we all one day get along. :D
:embarrass
Never trust a Frenchman to do a German's job.
:embarrass
Seeing as how France considers 30 hours a week "full-time", you probably shouldn't trust them to do ANY job.
Crimson Lancer,
Your point is well taken, and you are correct in stating a well thought post should include things that the company and/or person should have done. I agree with you completely.
You should understand though, that it's the whiner, who often makes things move - not the constructive people. Granted, I am sure you'll point out that this bogs all of us down. I agree. However, if you look at the corporate world, gaming world, haggling world, whatever, you will often see that whiners get their way and force the companies to do the right thing; whether it be through law-suits or fear of looking bad. (I am also aware that they also get them to do very dumb things - like state that coffee is hot!) But, in the end, it is whiners, however annoying they are, that often get things to move.
I am glad I am not one of them, and to be truthful, I don't enjoy being around them socially either. But, after having watched them, they are a part of the "movers and shakers" of the world. And I merely wished to acknowledge that.
So how about this. Cheers to the optimists, pessimists, whiners, silent-warriors, and carpet rugs everywhere! May we all one day get along. :D
Constructive Criticism gets something. If you whine and then offer a better idea, or a fix, or something, then something is more likely to get done about it.
A good approximate mix might be 80% whiners, 20% constructors. Someone should do a psychological study on that.
Of course, anyone who can't voice their opinion without regressing to childish insults and flaming... those are the types who are quickly ignored.
Sony did it with there ps3, advertising home and better online play and it has been like 2-3 years now.
D&dI sounds very similar to this kind of tactic. So I would not wait up for it. Just play the books and except that you were mislead.
First of all, consider my original post honestly searching for answers, not just a "I'm bored and want to ***** about DDi." I was definitely upset about the issue, and still feel cheated about it. But that's neither here nor there. I'm usually a lil more objective with my concerns, but I guess you can take the author out of the rpg nerd, but not nerd out of the author.
Secondly, I read from one of Lancers replies that WoTC added an update that admitted they screwed up? Where is this? I'm unable to find this quote.
Lancer: "If you checked the updates, Randy Beuhler posted a nice little article that basically went, "Everything the Forum Guys Said is Right, So We're Fixing Everything. Sorry We Let You All Down." could you link that, or send me a pm with it?
Question for OP
When did White Wolf publish a Game Table?
They haven't. Considering CCP owns them now though... I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with one. However, we were fortunate enough to get pdf tiles and label them. Online game's ended for now though.
My local pals are getting a Tuesday night thing going. Our live pen and paper game will be using WorldWorksGames cardstock terrain for the non online stuff. No one else have the 4e books 'cept for myself.
Lancer was right, when he stated we'd prefer any other system over the debacle.
I'm kind of over it all now. I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, that wouldn't sound like un-needed whining and moaning. So I'll drop the issue.
I look at it this way, I can show WoTC my dissatisfaction by not buying another 4e anything. I really can't have that same impact by trying to voice concerns on the raging sea that is the DDi forums.
"Nothing to see here, move along."