Right now we have no idea when the Visualizer will be released. We haven't a clue when the VTT will be out either, but it is likely that will be the last one out.
The e-zines have some good content. They do. Worth $8 a month though in their current state? Seriously? Not pleased at all with this decision and neither are my groups.
Charging for what they have now makes me feel like they're almost calling this "good". Actions speak louder than words and I'll believe the character builder is coming out when it actually comes out. I completely anticipate it to be delayed this month (then again they didn't give a date for it did they?).
I know this isn't going to stop their decision with the charging, but that is my two cents on the issue. Take it or leave it for what its worth.
Its just him giving his opinion. Don't take it to be anything more, or anything less.
Thanks ;)
and this is supposed to prove what?
Is it supposed to prove anything? I don't see anything there that is meant to prove anything do you? Did you... I dunno... read the post? I mean a person with any inkling of common sense could have seen that this was the opinion of a dissatisfied customer... though I probably shouldn't remind you of that.
As a side note, I believe that the adventure content that they've had in Dungeon the last few months has been good stuff. But that alone isn't worth the price they are asking to me. I do still miss getting my print issues of the magazines in the mail every month.
L
We're not being asked to pay $15/13/10 for 1/3/12 months and then waiting for the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and Game Table. We're being asked to pay $8/6.5/5 for 1/3/12 months. With that you get the magazines, the bonus tools, the compendium, and access to the closed beta of the Character builder (and I'd guess the rest of the tools as they enter their beta tests).
I just like to clarify that when people say they can't believe that WotC is charging already when the suite isn't done yet. They know it isn't done yet, so they're not asking people to pay final pricing.
It may well be that you don't feel the magazines and extras are worth paying for either yet. That's fine, that's your prerogative. Only you can decide if what's being offered is worth your money.
*) the bonus tools are near to useless, compared to many community driven projects have already done similar stuff, with similar or better outcomes. (back in the 3.5 dnd era you'd have lots of tools to choose from, for character creation and rules search, encounter building etc.)
*) the beta is not part of the subscription fee. you might get it one or two months earlier, but that's just that. you are still the guinea pig, and usually companies rather pay their testers than take money from them. being a closed beta tester is as far away from an "early access"-model as you can be.
*) the compendium looks like it was done in a hurry, to make up for the missed date on the character builder. no time whatsoever went into usability studies, or hiring someone who actually knows how to present and filter stuff to be really awesome. (and judging from some of cort's statements, the DB-design-team is not that experienced as well. seems like their data model is a bit to slim, making some things really hard to do which should in reality, be a minor task)
oh, and since some people always want to know what you're doing if you are criticising stuff: e-gov applications developer. (~200k users)
so, whats left in the package you get to buy? magazines with good content, but overpriced for the media they are selling it in, and hardly ever on time. (this has changed a bit in the last month, but we won't be sure unless we see it for some time.) also, you are forced to buy lots of stuff you have absolutely no interest in, like dungeon if you are no dm.
@wolfstar: let's get to the point:
*) the bonus tools are near to useless, compared to many community driven projects have already done similar stuff, with similar or better outcomes. (back in the 3.5 dnd era you'd have lots of tools to choose from, for character creation and rules search, encounter building etc.)
I've had occasion to use the tools. I don't think they're near to useless - they're just not replacements for the full-on programs that we're expecting.
They're correctly categorized as "Bonus" tools, however, for while they have their place, it isn't a place that demands top-billing or a separate fee.
*) the beta is not part of the subscription fee. you might get it one or two months earlier, but that's just that. you are still the guinea pig, and usually companies rather pay their testers than take money from them. being a closed beta tester is as far away from an "early access"-model as you can be.
I don't think I said it was part of the fee (and I didn't mean to imply it if I did). Regardless, it is a value-add to the subscription as a whole, if you're interested in the Closed Beta.
I'm not familiar with any consumer softwares that have paid for beta testers. Government/Corporate softwares may work differently, but if you have a large pool of potential testers willing to test for free, its silly not to take advantage of that.
*) the compendium looks like it was done in a hurry, to make up for the missed date on the character builder. no time whatsoever went into usability studies, or hiring someone who actually knows how to present and filter stuff to be really awesome. (and judging from some of cort's statements, the DB-design-team is not that experienced as well. seems like their data model is a bit to slim, making some things really hard to do which should in reality, be a minor task)
I confess I haven't really used the Compendium. It doesn't meet my personal needs. I have my library of books with me here at home, and if I need something, I look it up.
I can only go by the reports of others, which seem to indicate that the Compendium is getting better day-by-day (or at least, week-by-week).
oh, and since some people always want to know what you're doing if you are criticising stuff: e-gov applications developer. (~200k users)
~shrug~ Perspective is nice, but it doesn't change people's core opinions.
so, whats left in the package you get to buy? magazines with good content, but overpriced for the media they are selling it in, and hardly ever on time. (this has changed a bit in the last month, but we won't be sure unless we see it for some time.) also, you are forced to buy lots of stuff you have absolutely no interest in, like dungeon if you are no dm.
And that comes back to what I believe I've said before. Take a look at what's being offered, and decide for yourself if its worth it.
If the magazines are "iffy" to you, or you're not that interested in the magazines, it's probably not worth it to you.
If the magazines are great, invest. They're the core of what's being offered now, I think the bulk of the decision should be based off that.
and this is supposed to prove what?
paying for a beta product that should be free
paying for a beta product that should be free
But you aren't paying for a beta. You are paying for the magazines. You get a couple of bonus tools to tide you over, maybe, for a while, as well as the compendium. You also get to play with the beta when that happens.
I feel that the price isn't bad for what you get now.
I am upset that the product wasn't ready at 4e launch.
I am waiting patiently for the final product to show it's face.
I am also tempted to get in on the closed beta. hmm.. Coming from me.. funny.
1 of 7 elements of D&DI are up and running in top shape (the magazines).
2 of 7 are incomplete: The rules compendium and utilities, all whopping 3 of them.
4 of 7 are totally inaccesible: Character Builder, Visualizer, Dungeon Builder and D&D Gaming Table.
And they're already starting to charge customers for THIS?
Are you joking?
I don't see how a woefully incomplete "suite of electronic tools" is worth a cent right now.
1 of 7 elements of D&DI are up and running in top shape (the magazines).
2 of 7 are incomplete: The rules compendium and utilities, all whopping 3 of them.
4 of 7 are totally inaccesible: Character Builder, Visualizer, Dungeon Builder and D&D Gaming Table.
And they're charging customers for THIS?
Are you joking?
Again, the cost is for the magazines. And it is a good price point.
Again, the cost is for the magazines. And it is a good price point.
Yawn. Call me when the "digital generation of D&D" really starts.
Online mazagines... that's just not it.
It's the other stuff in D&DI - that's what's going to make or break D&D's integrated electronic future.
Yawn. Call me when the "digital generation of D&D" really starts.
Online mazagines... that's just not it.
It's the other stuff in D&DI - that's what's going to make or break D&D's integrated electronic future.
I agree completely. I was just saying that the price right now matches what you are getting.
Yawn. Call me when the "digital generation of D&D" really starts.
Online mazagines... that's just not it.
It's the other stuff in D&DI - that's what's going to make or break D&D's integrated electronic future.
LOL, I agree with you on Both threads.
And the price-point issue remains the same. It's hard to figure out value when So much content online is free. I subscribe to almost no online magazines or newspapers because almost all the major ones offer their content for free or ad-supported.
I do subscribe to Consumer Reports online, and that costs me 26$ a year, that's the only real comparison I have.
I agree completely. I was just saying that the price right now matches what you are getting.
except you're paying half the price for 1/4th of the final product. (and this is the half, many people do not want, and other people want it split up even further to get rid of that useless dungeon-bit.)
Or is this an "early adopters" price that will eventually increase dramatically when they add the remaining pieces?
L
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the subscription costs being charged now the "final" prices? In some way, I've gotten the impression that they realized that a paid monthly fee of $15/month or something more like $10/month if you buy a year's worth is too high for this kind of product (when compared to MMORPGs, satellite radio and other packages). I was under the impression that even in 12 months or whatever it takes to have the full suite of tools up and running along with the magazines that the price would still be what they are currently asking?
Or is this an "early adopters" price that will eventually increase dramatically when they add the remaining pieces?
L
The current price is for part of DDI that is considered working, prices are subject to change at any time.
The current plans do indicate as more goes ready the price will indeed increase.
Or is this an "early adopters" price that will eventually increase dramatically when they add the remaining pieces?
the current pricing is for the magazines alone.
bonus tools are given out as add-on, but are not really part of the pricing.
beta access to the character builder is given out as "freebie" to subscribers.
they have not announced anything further than that, which is the reason for me not to subscribe.
As for the Bonus Tools - the subscription page lets you know that prices will increase as more tools are added, but those who have paid for their current subscription won't incur any increase until their subscription is renewed.
I got a great deal on the magazines, but whether the functionality of the completed toolset (whenever it's finally completed) will compare to free tools, like the excellent DM Toolkit mentioned in earlier posts, will be worth the ultimate price increase is something I can't be sure of. Only time will tell.
The good thing is that the developers are listening to what we, the community, want for our games, so I'm hoping that they'll be offering just as good a deal when my renewal comes up next year.
As for the Bonus Tools - the subscription page lets you know that prices will increase as more tools are added, but those who have paid for their current subscription won't incur any increase until their subscription is renewed.
Nitpick - The bonus tools, as they get added, will not cause the price of DDI to go up. The main applications might.
The one thing to keep in perspective is that, while they are charging starting today, they're only charging for what's available, today.
We're not being asked to pay $15/13/10 for 1/3/12 months and then waiting for the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and Game Table. We're being asked to pay $8/6.5/5 for 1/3/12 months. With that you get the magazines, the bonus tools, the compendium, and access to the closed beta of the Character builder (and I'd guess the rest of the tools as they enter their beta tests).
I just like to clarify that when people say they can't believe that WotC is charging already when the suite isn't done yet. They know it isn't done yet, so they're not asking people to pay final pricing.
It may well be that you don't feel the magazines and extras are worth paying for either yet. That's fine, that's your prerogative. Only you can decide if what's being offered is worth your money.
Well here's the deal man, the big thing that I see is that NONE of the tools that are available now were the big selling points for D&D Insider when it was announced and splashed all over the inside of the three D&D core books as something that would be available at the launch of those core books. None of the tools that are available now were even mentioned as a part of D&D Insider in those ads actually no tools were specifically announced in those ads, but there was a big suggestive picture of a tool set on a laptop screen that had options to save a character, load a character, access a character sheet, start a new character and the tool handled character portraits very well quite obviously because there is a big one front center on the laptop screen and a smaller version off to the right of the laptop screen. The compendium may have been announced from the get go but to me it was one of the less memorable of the tools and wasn't really a big selling point.
Now what they have begun charging for is almost like a substitute set of tools, yes there are promises of the rest of them to come but no dates have even been suggested and the tools that DON"T EXIST YET were the big major selling points for D&D Insider. There seems to be a pattern emerging as to what has been released thus far. The tools that are mostly text based with little or no graphics and that use databases are the ones being released with no sign or announced release dates for the tools that are graphical in nature and that use complex 3D rendering engines and/or graphics animation.
Wizards of the Coast is releasing in electronic form the stuff that they have always released and done a decent job with, things based mostly or entirely upon the written word and art. The things that they are having trouble with are the things that they have always had trouble with in the past real solid down to earth software. So far everything is databases and e-zines or based upon those things, maybe with the exception of the monster builder I haven't seen it. The real software and the main selling points for D&D Insider can't actually even be seen on the horizon just yet. In reality no one knows if they will be released this year, next year, 3 years from now or never. Anyway that is why I am less impressed with D&D Insider now than I was when I realized the tools didn't exist yet at the launch of 4e.
Charles
I don't see how a woefully incomplete "suite of electronic tools" is worth a cent right now.
1 of 7 elements of D&DI are up and running in top shape (the magazines).
2 of 7 are incomplete: The rules compendium and utilities, all whopping 3 of them.
4 of 7 are totally inaccesible: Character Builder, Visualizer, Dungeon Builder and D&D Gaming Table.
And they're already starting to charge customers for THIS?
Are you joking?
2 mags for no more then 7.95 a month , less if you want is a good deal.
i spent 8.34 on my lunch a bit ago
2 mags for no more then 7.95 a month , less if you want is a good deal.
i spent 8.34 on my lunch a bit ago
hey I tell you what I got paperclips and I'll send you one each month for 1.99 a month (plus taxes and additional fees required by your area.) hey that's less than a soda at the movies don't pass up this great value. I'll have my subscription services up and running shortly.
hey I tell you what I got paperclips and I'll send you one each month for 1.99 a month (plus taxes and additional fees required by your area.) hey that's less than a soda at the movies don't pass up this great value. I'll have my subscription services up and running shortly.
I think that jimthegray was expressing what I've expressed several times over the last two days; for some of us, the magazines and the tools are worth the subscription prices. Obviously, to you, they're not and that's cool.
To me, a paperclip subscription wouldn't be worth any price. And that's cool, too. :D
2 mags for no more then 7.95 a month , less if you want is a good deal. i spent 8.34 on my lunch a bit ago
Well, the e-subscription and your $8.34 lunch do have one thing in common: they both end up producing crap. :D
Sorry, sorry, I just couldn't resist. I comletely agree with previous posters that for some folks (like me) the mags and bonus tools are a flaky half-measure not worth paying for, but for others they are useful and worth the cost. But hey, some folks juggle geese. ;)
During one year for 50 euros they will offer about 2400 pages of content if they keep the same rate which mean about 10 books for the same price we pay for less than two printed books.
If the content of Dragon and Dungeon stays at the current level (which is good to me) I think that the offer is nice and don't need anything more to justify the expense (I already signed in for one year).
On the other hand if you have no use for the magazines then 95% of the online content is useless for you...
I don't see how a woefully incomplete "suite of electronic tools" is worth a cent right now.
1 of 7 elements of D&DI are up and running in top shape (the magazines).
2 of 7 are incomplete: The rules compendium and utilities, all whopping 3 of them.
4 of 7 are totally inaccesible: Character Builder, Visualizer, Dungeon Builder and D&D Gaming Table.
And they're already starting to charge customers for THIS?
Are you joking?
Amen.
I think that jimthegray was expressing what I've expressed several times over the last two days; for some of us, the magazines and the tools are worth the subscription prices. Obviously, to you, they're not and that's cool.
To me, a paperclip subscription wouldn't be worth any price. And that's cool, too. :D
I agree and its fine I actually find them cool and I'll be happy to subscribe and see them once WOTC fulfills its obligations to those who bought the game for the game table, and fixes auto renew, and the many many other problems like making it clear what is and isn't involved in the subscription. I'm just really really tired of hearing how much peoples lunch cost's. My point was just because it's cheaper than your lunch doesn't make it a good value it's a good value if you like it and are happy to pay what it costs. I am not happy with the price it is still really high for what it is but if they were to act with some respect to the consumer I'd pay it.