A few bones to pick about the CB - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

A few bones to pick about the CB

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lady_bloodriver
Jan 29, 2011 11:45:20
So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had.
While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things.

Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods

I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is

#2
_Mithreinmaethor_
Jan 29, 2011 13:05:50

So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had.
While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things.

Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods

I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is

I dont think that it was EVER intended to be listed as a Paladin Utility 4. I believe that the Compendium listing for it is correct just listing it as Paladin Utility. Since a normal Paladin does not have the ability to give up Pace of the Virtuous Charger since that is a Cavalier class ability gained at level 4.

Level 4 Alternative:Summoned Steed
Galloping through the planar mists to answer the cavalier’s call, the celestial steed takes on the appearance and solidity of a living, breathing beast for as long as the cavalier requires its service. When dismissed, it canters off into cloud and mist, returning to the celestial domains from whence it came. If slain, the steed can be summoned again at full strength the next day.
Benefit: Instead of your Pace of the Virtuous Charger class feature, you gain the call celestial steed power.

#3
lady_bloodriver
Jan 29, 2011 13:44:23
I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment.

And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it"

So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this
#4
thespaceinvader
Jan 29, 2011 14:23:59

So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had.
While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things.

Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods

I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is

I dont think that it was EVER intended to be listed as a Paladin Utility 4. I believe that the Compendium listing for it is correct just listing it as Paladin Utility. Since a normal Paladin does not have the ability to give up Pace of the Virtuous Charger since that is a Cavalier class ability gained at level 4.

Level 4 Alternative:Summoned Steed
Galloping through the planar mists to answer the cavalier’s call, the celestial steed takes on the appearance and solidity of a living, breathing beast for as long as the cavalier requires its service. When dismissed, it canters off into cloud and mist, returning to the celestial domains from whence it came. If slain, the steed can be summoned again at full strength the next day.
Benefit: Instead of your Pace of the Virtuous Charger class feature, you gain the call celestial steed power.

Intent is entirely irrelevant.

Absent any errata, the power IS published in the rules-legal source (the compiled D393) as Paladin Utility 4. It has not yet been errated. The Compendium and OCB are WRONG about this power, which IS, RAW, accessible to any Paladin at level 6.

Besides, neither of us knows intent. I'd argue that the intent specifically WAS to let the O-Paladin use the power, or they wouldn't have made it levelled in the first place. I'd have precisely as much evidence as you do.
#5
_Mithreinmaethor_
Jan 29, 2011 16:03:59

I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment.

And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it"

So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this

You can stick to you guns all you want. You will just be that much more frustrated in the end.
#6
lokiare
Jan 29, 2011 16:38:57

I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment.

And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it"

So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this

You can stick to you guns all you want. You will just be that much more frustrated in the end.

I believe they are saying that WotC is not clear and should fix it one way or the other.

I completely agree with this they need to pull their data from the same source. One database to rule them all or whater...
#7
lady_bloodriver
Jan 29, 2011 16:58:57
surprisingly I keep getting a consistent answer from CS about Call Celestial Steed

#8
thespaceinvader
Jan 29, 2011 17:12:12 Yes, I will be frustrated if the power is errated. It's a damn nice power, and nobody else has any way to get it if it's only accessible to Cavaliers, because MC feats haven't been made for them.

But until such time as it may be errated, it should be listed correctly in the Compendium and on the Builder.

It was published one way, and is being listed in another way. However they fix it, be it by errating the power, which would be disappointing, or by clearing up the bug in the database, which would be better, it needs fixing.
#9
drnick
Feb 01, 2011 11:26:08 Yes but with the way it's worded, how would you even legally take the power?

Doesn't the OCB only show legal choices? Even if it has a level, no other Paladins can take it. The power needs errata one way or the other.
#10
lady_bloodriver
Feb 01, 2011 14:09:56 its been wrong in the past .. hell entire classes have been missing at one point to another..
#11
thespaceinvader
Feb 01, 2011 14:10:13 When you take a utility power, you can take any power of your class and of your level or lower. Thus, Call Celestial Steed, as a Paladin Utility 4, can be taken in any Paladin Utility power slot at level 6 or later.
#12
drnick
Feb 01, 2011 17:23:40 Except by its own wording you can't take it unless you have the cavalier benefit to trade for it. Doesn't specific beat general?
#13
Damon_Tor
Feb 01, 2011 23:55:29
Except by its own wording you can't take it unless you have the cavalier benefit to trade for it. Doesn't specific beat general?

No more than a feat which allows you to trade one of your class features for, say, Fleeting Ghost would prevent any other character from taking Fleeting Ghost in the normal way. The power in question has no prerequisite requiring the trade, the trade is just one way to get the power.
#14
thespaceinvader
Feb 02, 2011 4:21:42 Bingo. The Cavalier class feature that allows THEM to get the power, only lets them get it at 4th level in trade for Pace of the Virtuous Charger (which is a crappy power, so I can't see a Cav NOT taking Call Steed), but they could also take it as a Paladin Utility in their 6th or later slot, because it is a levelled power.

As long as the power itself doesn't have prerequisites a Paladin can't meet (which it doesn't, at all), and it's a levelled Paladin power, which it is, the Paladin can take it. In the same way as a Half-Elf can take Eyebite as his Dilettante, despite it normally being granted by a class feature. Etc etc etc. How a power is granted to its native E-class is irrelevant. If it's levelled, and it uses the O-class's name (which they all do), it can be taken by the O-class in the appropriate slots.

This is why things like the Martial class stances are all non-levelled.
#15
_Mithreinmaethor_
Feb 02, 2011 14:29:15 Dont expect to see it in the OCB so that a normal Paladin can take it. They will clarify/update/errata it before that would happen.

I know thespaceinvader plays LFR so he is trying to push this pretty hard but its pretty obvious its intent. Someone made a mistake and put a level on it, they will correct it before long and this argument will be moot.
#16
thespaceinvader
Feb 02, 2011 17:50:13 If it gets errated, I'd be irritated, because it would wreck any number of cool things you could do with it (including, if I ever get around to playing him again, my currently-level-2 LFR Pally), and that's what, in the end, D&D's about - doing cool things. I would accept the errata, shrug, grimace, and move on. But I'd prefer to see it actually GET errated. Officially. And some notification, via the usual channels. Which haven't been updated in nearly three months now.

I still believe that it's a mistake in the Compendium, not a mistake in the article. There's no real way to be sure one way or the other with WOTC keeping mum about it.

I think the point of the discussion for me is more that this sort of problem continuing to exist after several months is symptomatic of the general downturn in WOTC actually (apparently) giving a rat's ass about customer service and the general quality of the products they're putting out. It's a problem that would take minutes to correct if it is an error, or that could be errated if it's not. But the contradiction has been present for at least a month, and nothing has been said either way. The problem itself is a minor irritant, but it points to bigger problems behind the scenes.

Not to mention that this is far from the only entry in the Compendium and OCB that deviate from printed and up-to-date source material.
#17
Kalex_the_Omen
Feb 03, 2011 5:37:01 As far as I am aware, errata has been quarterly for quite some time. Three months is about right.

Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out my own preference, but I think being so worried about what power tricks you can perform instead of being focused on character and story is what's wrong with role-playing these days. It's unfortunately what computer RPGs have done to the genre. This kind of thing is such a non-issue to me as to seem ludicrous.

YMMV
#18
lady_bloodriver
Feb 03, 2011 6:05:23 Heh my reasons are for rp (see sainted Knight-commander of corellon and Forging the horseman:War) builds both are about mounted heroes paladin|warlord and slayer mc palladin respectivly

but this is only one of the many problems I have..
As I spoke about earlyer the fact they cant update it so all relevent paragon paths and ED are usable erks me to no end (because I have 3 chars waiting on the D394's tolems of the far realms)

And the missing pet/mount stat block realy hurts those classes with such companions

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lady_bloodriver Jan 29, 2011 11:45:20	So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had. While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things. Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is
#2 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jan 29, 2011 13:05:50	So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had. While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things. Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is I dont think that it was EVER intended to be listed as a Paladin Utility 4. I believe that the Compendium listing for it is correct just listing it as Paladin Utility. Since a normal Paladin does not have the ability to give up Pace of the Virtuous Charger since that is a Cavalier class ability gained at level 4. Level 4 Alternative:Summoned Steed Galloping through the planar mists to answer the cavalier’s call, the celestial steed takes on the appearance and solidity of a living, breathing beast for as long as the cavalier requires its service. When dismissed, it canters off into cloud and mist, returning to the celestial domains from whence it came. If slain, the steed can be summoned again at full strength the next day. Benefit: Instead of your Pace of the Virtuous Charger class feature, you gain the call celestial steed power.
#3 lady_bloodriver Jan 29, 2011 13:44:23	I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment. And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it" So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this
#4 thespaceinvader Jan 29, 2011 14:23:59	So are Paladins ever going to get the update to take Call Celestial Steed as a utility and its support because under the RAW we should be able to it is a PALADIN UTILITY4 so we should be able to get it at lvl6 or higher and really we should be allowed to after all its one of the only things missing from 4e that 3.5 had. While we are on the subject will we ever get scaling pet/mount stat blocks because you have 3 base classes and at lest one paragon path that give out such things. Finally are we ever going to get all the paragon/EDs while there relevant I been waiting for 2 months to finish my hunter and ranger but haha I can’t because "(bitter) blizzards of the coast" can't seem to keep the CB semi up to date let alone keep it from blood crashing or freezing ever 5 minutes let alone the bit where it refuses to print 95% of the time thus I can't take my Paragon path and have been forced to play other roles in level P1 mods I am usaly a nice sweet understanding woman but even I can only take so much before speaking out this is not acceptable as is I dont think that it was EVER intended to be listed as a Paladin Utility 4. I believe that the Compendium listing for it is correct just listing it as Paladin Utility. Since a normal Paladin does not have the ability to give up Pace of the Virtuous Charger since that is a Cavalier class ability gained at level 4. Level 4 Alternative:Summoned Steed Galloping through the planar mists to answer the cavalier’s call, the celestial steed takes on the appearance and solidity of a living, breathing beast for as long as the cavalier requires its service. When dismissed, it canters off into cloud and mist, returning to the celestial domains from whence it came. If slain, the steed can be summoned again at full strength the next day. Benefit: Instead of your Pace of the Virtuous Charger class feature, you gain the call celestial steed power. Intent is entirely irrelevant. Absent any errata, the power IS published in the rules-legal source (the compiled D393) as Paladin Utility 4. It has not yet been errated. The Compendium and OCB are WRONG about this power, which IS, RAW, accessible to any Paladin at level 6. Besides, neither of us knows intent. I'd argue that the intent specifically WAS to let the O-Paladin use the power, or they wouldn't have made it levelled in the first place. I'd have precisely as much evidence as you do.
#5 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jan 29, 2011 16:03:59	I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment. And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it" So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this You can stick to you guns all you want. You will just be that much more frustrated in the end.
#6 lokiare Jan 29, 2011 16:38:57	I dont care about intent or what the Compendium states atm(because it is known to be wrong) what I do care about is what the rules as written state at this very moment. And I qoute CS " The CB and Compendium are wrong in regards to Summon Steed ALL paladins can take it" So until they prove they totally suck by making Cavalier only via errata or vindicate me through fixing there mistakes I will continue to stick to my guns about this You can stick to you guns all you want. You will just be that much more frustrated in the end. I believe they are saying that WotC is not clear and should fix it one way or the other. I completely agree with this they need to pull their data from the same source. One database to rule them all or whater...
#7 lady_bloodriver Jan 29, 2011 16:58:57	surprisingly I keep getting a consistent answer from CS about Call Celestial Steed
#8 thespaceinvader Jan 29, 2011 17:12:12	Yes, I will be frustrated if the power is errated. It's a damn nice power, and nobody else has any way to get it if it's only accessible to Cavaliers, because MC feats haven't been made for them. But until such time as it may be errated, it should be listed correctly in the Compendium and on the Builder. It was published one way, and is being listed in another way. However they fix it, be it by errating the power, which would be disappointing, or by clearing up the bug in the database, which would be better, it needs fixing.
#9 drnick Feb 01, 2011 11:26:08	Yes but with the way it's worded, how would you even legally take the power? Doesn't the OCB only show legal choices? Even if it has a level, no other Paladins can take it. The power needs errata one way or the other.
#10 lady_bloodriver Feb 01, 2011 14:09:56	its been wrong in the past .. hell entire classes have been missing at one point to another..
#11 thespaceinvader Feb 01, 2011 14:10:13	When you take a utility power, you can take any power of your class and of your level or lower. Thus, Call Celestial Steed, as a Paladin Utility 4, can be taken in any Paladin Utility power slot at level 6 or later.
#12 drnick Feb 01, 2011 17:23:40	Except by its own wording you can't take it unless you have the cavalier benefit to trade for it. Doesn't specific beat general?
#13 Damon_Tor Feb 01, 2011 23:55:29	Except by its own wording you can't take it unless you have the cavalier benefit to trade for it. Doesn't specific beat general? No more than a feat which allows you to trade one of your class features for, say, Fleeting Ghost would prevent any other character from taking Fleeting Ghost in the normal way. The power in question has no prerequisite requiring the trade, the trade is just one way to get the power.
#14 thespaceinvader Feb 02, 2011 4:21:42	Bingo. The Cavalier class feature that allows THEM to get the power, only lets them get it at 4th level in trade for Pace of the Virtuous Charger (which is a crappy power, so I can't see a Cav NOT taking Call Steed), but they could also take it as a Paladin Utility in their 6th or later slot, because it is a levelled power. As long as the power itself doesn't have prerequisites a Paladin can't meet (which it doesn't, at all), and it's a levelled Paladin power, which it is, the Paladin can take it. In the same way as a Half-Elf can take Eyebite as his Dilettante, despite it normally being granted by a class feature. Etc etc etc. How a power is granted to its native E-class is irrelevant. If it's levelled, and it uses the O-class's name (which they all do), it can be taken by the O-class in the appropriate slots. This is why things like the Martial class stances are all non-levelled.
#15 _Mithreinmaethor_ Feb 02, 2011 14:29:15	Dont expect to see it in the OCB so that a normal Paladin can take it. They will clarify/update/errata it before that would happen. I know thespaceinvader plays LFR so he is trying to push this pretty hard but its pretty obvious its intent. Someone made a mistake and put a level on it, they will correct it before long and this argument will be moot.
#16 thespaceinvader Feb 02, 2011 17:50:13	If it gets errated, I'd be irritated, because it would wreck any number of cool things you could do with it (including, if I ever get around to playing him again, my currently-level-2 LFR Pally), and that's what, in the end, D&D's about - doing cool things. I would accept the errata, shrug, grimace, and move on. But I'd prefer to see it actually GET errated. Officially. And some notification, via the usual channels. Which haven't been updated in nearly three months now. I still believe that it's a mistake in the Compendium, not a mistake in the article. There's no real way to be sure one way or the other with WOTC keeping mum about it. I think the point of the discussion for me is more that this sort of problem continuing to exist after several months is symptomatic of the general downturn in WOTC actually (apparently) giving a rat's ass about customer service and the general quality of the products they're putting out. It's a problem that would take minutes to correct if it is an error, or that could be errated if it's not. But the contradiction has been present for at least a month, and nothing has been said either way. The problem itself is a minor irritant, but it points to bigger problems behind the scenes. Not to mention that this is far from the only entry in the Compendium and OCB that deviate from printed and up-to-date source material.
#17 Kalex_the_Omen Feb 03, 2011 5:37:01	As far as I am aware, errata has been quarterly for quite some time. Three months is about right. Not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out my own preference, but I think being so worried about what power tricks you can perform instead of being focused on character and story is what's wrong with role-playing these days. It's unfortunately what computer RPGs have done to the genre. This kind of thing is such a non-issue to me as to seem ludicrous. YMMV
#18 lady_bloodriver Feb 03, 2011 6:05:23	Heh my reasons are for rp (see sainted Knight-commander of corellon and Forging the horseman:War) builds both are about mounted heroes paladin\|warlord and slayer mc palladin respectivly but this is only one of the many problems I have.. As I spoke about earlyer the fact they cant update it so all relevent paragon paths and ED are usable erks me to no end (because I have 3 chars waiting on the D394's tolems of the far realms) And the missing pet/mount stat block realy hurts those classes with such companions