Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 epochgames Jun 10, 2008 12:34:54	While I want to thank Ken once again for taking the time to post on the forum, I see a number of issues with the most recent post. Pricing Wizards releases information, which has been around for awhile a now as to the pricing structure of DnDi. Players and fans express concerns over that pricing, and say--"well, wait, we're willing to pay, but not that much." A few have said they feel the price is fair, and while I don't value their opinion any less than anyone else's, it is important to note the difference simply in numbers between the two camps. There seem to be more people who are saying they will not pay according to this proposed pricing structure of DnDi. Yet, Wiz and Ken come back to say: This is how we're pricing it out. That doesn't answer the concerns as raised, other than players and DMs will be able to share Vminis. Ken even made mention that they are unsure of the pricing structure, because this is a wholly new model for WotC. They have these things called market research, panels groups, and surveys that most companies do when launching a new product. You've already answered the most important questions: Is there a need for this product? Will customers be willing to pay for this product? Is there a value for us, as a company in this product? Yes, yes, and yes. But, it seems WotC is completely oblivious to the fact that their pricing may be off by a bit when it comes to the actual amount people are willing to pay. Your entire customer base isn't in Seattle, aren't professional gamers who will undoubtedly receive a free subscription from their employer, or a series of programmers and other skilled professionals with a large disposable income. Many of your fans are working Joes, with a wage closer to the national average of around $9.50 an hour. I live in Tucson, where someone who makes that much is considered darn near rich, but still makes so little they rely on government subsidies. These people spend months saving up for the hard copy products, or forgo a set of other regular events when a new product comes out. Sorry, DnDi is NOT an MMO, and cannot have its pricing structure based on that. Wanna dip your hands into the pie being hogged by WoW, AoC, and others? Either offer a similar product, or drop the price to accommodate for the fact that it's not. Rather than just offer criticism, I'll offer a few brief suggestions. While the true value of DnDi has not been proven to me as of yet, I am one of the many who do not believe the value exists for $15 a month, and $120 a year is just too steep a price for me to pay up front for something for personal use off the bat. I would perhaps be willing to pay $10 a month, but there better be regularly updated content of superior quality for no additional fee, and any additional pricing for vMinis or tiles better truly be nominal, such as $3 for a set of 10 or more minis, and the same for an entirely new set of tiles. Drop the current RPGA pricing structure and evolve it in DNDi, where regularly sponsored games are part of DnDi, perhaps staff run and involved games using the tools we are paying for. This is a value add for me, and may get me to see the full $15 a month as worth it. But, there should be more to it than that--a game on almost any time day or night, one that doesn't require you to be someone's nephew to get in, and perhaps some nifty Vmini or sig or something to show your official veteran status. WIIFM I was somewhat disheartened to find this question was ignored. It was mine, granted, so I noticed it more than others. But, what is in it for me?!? What do the tools DnDi offer above and beyond what's already available? Okay, a compendium, visualizer, game table. That's fine, but the actual tools are readily available, and the compendium is sure to be duplicated although on a less official (and perhaps legal) manner. So, what does Wiz have that makes their product worth so much? If you can't answer this question, stop, go back to the drawing board, ram your head against it several times, and start again once you can answer this. A Little Fan Love I mentioned this before as well. The DnD books were released with an advertisement for the tools from DnDi. The conferences, podcasts, articles, and all the media pushed forth by Wiz showed and told us how great the DnDi tools were going to, and how they were there for us side by side with the launch of the new, enhanced 4e. Well, what happened, of course, was that the tools weren't there. While someone like Ken can't be blamed that this went on without any notice, the marketing people should really have their head in the sand over this one. People want to say it's not misleading advertising or bait and switch, but it is. If I sell you a car, and tell you that it's going to have these new, awesome speakers in it that we want you to try, and you only have to pay for the speakers after giving the car a spin for a few days, and then you get the car to realize that not only are the new speakers not installed, but no speakers are installed, would you be right to return the vehicle? I mean, it was pricey compared to its competitors to begin with. It had a new sleek look to it, a great cutting edge engine, and one hell of a moon roof, but the speakers which were all I could talk about before smiling as I took your money, are nowhere to be found. There are several parallels you can draw along this line. When the first iMac came out, Apple hyped all its capabilities, but very carefully steered clear of any mention of the new peripheral options. Why? Because there were none on the market that would work with the iMac. This changed within 24 hours, thanks to what some perceived as fast movement by Epson. The truth was, their printer had been in development for months, but they weren't sure if they would be ready on time. So, they kept their mouths shut, and came in at the last second to save the day. But, I digress. What happened with the failure to launch DnDi happens. Sometimes, things just aren't done on time. We can all sit back and tell you how we would have done it, how we'd get fired if we were in charge of such a fiasco, how you've ruined everything (./whine). The bottom line is: what's done is done, and we know Wiz wants to make money, so we need to wait a bit for the products. Stuff happens. However, you as a company did let your customers down. Give us something more than words to reestablish our faith. Some free time on the DnDi, extra material, something. I was actually sitting at a Borders this morning and watched three people, only one of whom I knew, return their PHB, MM, and DMG for a full refund, the whole time the manager was essentially cussing out Wiz, because they (Wiz) had cost Borders money on this deal, as the books were now going to have a longer stock time, taking up more room in the back, etc., not to mention the amount of refunds they've handed out since Sunday. There was even a guy, who didn't work for the store, but on his day off, was sitting in the RPG section, warning people before they picked up the book. Two still bought, and at least two were turned away. This happened in the span of about an hour and a half. Wiz needs to step forward, as you have already started to do, but I would highly recommend doing something to reestablish faith with your customer base.
#2 blackflagon Jun 10, 2008 17:36:39	A very well-written take on what has happened, Epoch. Too bad so many people aren't responding to support it. What I can't understand is Wizards' response to this... they just seem like, I dunno, it's not that big a deal to them. I think they truly think it's just a hiccup and we can all move on. No, it's not a hiccup. This is a MAJOR issue and WotC is and will continue to pay a HUGE price for it, both monetarily and in good will among its patrons. Unbelievable that they would take so long to change the web pages. Unbelievable that their answers are still so soft-edged and canned. I guess we're all witnessing the total disconnect between a company and its customers. As someone else has noted it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Just amazing, their level of nonchalance with the whole thing, D&Di release and pricing models included.
#3 epochgames Jun 10, 2008 17:51:00	Absolutely, BlackFlaggon. It truly astounds me, but I think a lot of the disconnection comes from within the company itself. I honestly don't think the left hand knows what the right is doing. I imagine it's enough of a firestorm there right now that people are doing one of two things: a) totally freaking out and losing their mind, b) taking it slow and easy, patting themselves on the back between rounds of office miniature golf. Take, for example, the big complaint of no notice on the main pages about being delayed or coming soon. I've noticed for a good portion today that they yanked down the full description of the compendium and pasted up this coming soon graphic http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/compendium, but the rest of the products still have a full description and no mention of coming soon. I worked in a place where we bought a failed telecomm company and threw all the calls on an unsuspecting and ill-equipped tech support center with about an hour of prep time, which was during regular shifts--no training or anything. Imagine the reps' surprise when nothing was working like they were told to tell customers it was or would be, constant lie upon lie shuffled to the customer from the executives, who--when they were caught by support staff in their lies--stopped all communication and promptly fired everyone, saying they didn't know how to do their jobs. I see the same thing to an extent happening behind the scenes at Wiz. People are probably breaking down and trying to figure out what to tell customers, so they're willing to give broad strokes with a paint brush as to future predicaments, but not "man up," as it were. The staff, while communicating briefly here or there on the boards is doing very little to actually appease customers. Imagine having to explain to the higher higher ups why the company had to shell out cash to pay fines for the misdemeanors associated with misleading advertising, or why the legal team needs to mount a defense against a class action lawsuit. It won't happen, I'm sure, because no one wants their beloved DnD to go away, but instead of trying to discourage that type of thinking among its customer base, Wiz would rather act like the big, tyrannical giant its parent company has showed us it is.
#4 Dralenan Jun 10, 2008 20:01:29	Absolutely, BlackFlaggon. It truly astounds me, but I think a lot of the disconnection comes from within the company itself. I honestly don't think the left hand knows what the right is doing. I imagine it's enough of a firestorm there right now that people are doing one of two things: a) totally freaking out and losing their mind, b) taking it slow and easy, patting themselves on the back between rounds of office miniature golf. Take, for example, the big complaint of no notice on the main pages about being delayed or coming soon. I've noticed for a good portion today that they yanked down the full description of the compendium and pasted up this coming soon graphic http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/compendium, but the rest of the products still have a full description and no mention of coming soon. I worked in a place where we bought a failed telecomm company and threw all the calls on an unsuspecting and ill-equipped tech support center with about an hour of prep time, which was during regular shifts--no training or anything. Imagine the reps' surprise when nothing was working like they were told to tell customers it was or would be, constant lie upon lie shuffled to the customer from the executives, who--when they were caught by support staff in their lies--stopped all communication and promptly fired everyone, saying they didn't know how to do their jobs. I see the same thing to an extent happening behind the scenes at Wiz. People are probably breaking down and trying to figure out what to tell customers, so they're willing to give broad strokes with a paint brush as to future predicaments, but not "man up," as it were. The staff, while communicating briefly here or there on the boards is doing very little to actually appease customers. Imagine having to explain to the higher higher ups why the company had to shell out cash to pay fines for the misdemeanors associated with misleading advertising, or why the legal team needs to mount a defense against a class action lawsuit. It won't happen, I'm sure, because no one wants their beloved DnD to go away, but instead of trying to discourage that type of thinking among its customer base, Wiz would rather act like the big, tyrannical giant its parent company has showed us it is. Speaking of which, between the failure of Wizards of the Coast to ship copies of their book to online retailers (BN.com tells me they have yet to receive their shipment still) and the false advertising and promotion of D&D Insider, which as far as the early promos was touted as an integral part of D&D 4e, is a class action suit really so far-fetched?
#5 epochgames Jun 10, 2008 23:06:18	Speaking of which, between the failure of Wizards of the Coast to ship copies of their book to online retailers (BN.com tells me they have yet to receive their shipment still) and the false advertising and promotion of D&D Insider, which as far as the early promos was touted as an integral part of D&D 4e, is a class action suit really so far-fetched? To be quite frank, the idea of one really isn't too far fetched. I'm a freelance writer (admittedly often with too much free and not enough writing) and corporate troubleshooter and work with a number of individuals and companies in a variety of fields. Some of my best clients are lawyers (doctors pay just as quickly, but are far pickier). Anyhow, I get a chance often to sit and chew the fat with some of these guys, and during one eMeeting, I did bring up this topic just for fun, and to get there take on it. Granted, I'm not going to lead the charge in anyway, but I always have this awful sense of curiosity about me. Not only were there more comments than anyone has begun to post on these boards, but more than two firms actually were interested in picking up the case on a contingency basis. Now, am I saying that's what I want to see happen? No, not really. I, for the most part, enjoy the product WotC puts out. I just wish they'd stop expecting me to put out so much--yes, that is meant a few different ways. While I'm a strong supporter of standing up to corporate mistreatment, I'm not sure that Wiz is the best target to set a precedent with. So, is it doable? Yes. But, not by me. Like they say in the Navy: the best way to volunteer is to be the last to take a step back, or Never Again Volunteer Yourself; but, it's a huge step back for me. I don't want to see everything put on hold or prices skyrocket to cover a mounting legal cost. I want to continue to see a quality product actually produced. And, I want to see something more than a "whoops" from the company.
#6 igotsmeakabob Jun 10, 2008 23:08:16	Heh, Amazon shipped early. Anyway, my friends and I had looked forward to the D&D Game Table, it would allow all of us, who go to different colleges in different towns/states, to be able to keep our games going. But this delay will probably eat all of the summer, perhaps more! Whats the point if it takes that long to release?
#7 epochgames Jun 10, 2008 23:18:35	Heh, Amazon shipped early. Anyway, my friends and I had looked forward to the D&D Game Table, it would allow all of us, who go to different colleges in different towns/states, to be able to keep our games going. But this delay will probably eat all of the summer, perhaps more! Whats the point if it takes that long to release? I'm right with you there. I had pretty much washed my hands of any 3.x product, because it had all pretty much been done, and so much of the stuff on the boards, other websites, and that you could actually create yourself was better--this was true IMO of both official WotC releases and 3rd party. Also, due to real life issues, it became far too hard to meet with a regular gaming group, so further investment of my entertainment dollars just wasn't there. Then, a few friends and I tried a variety of different programs, all with their quirks and needed tweaks, but none of us shelled out a dime other than the Internet connections we already had. We played that way, but only us uber geeks were interested in that sort of play. Admittedly, there were some technical hurdles we had to overcome, which other gaming friends of mine just weren't willing to deal with. We were actually in the midst of tryingt o develop a comprehensive product such as what DnDi is promising when we heard about 4e and DnDi, so we stopped--thinking: these guys have way more money than us, these guys probably have a far bigger, and thus more skilled group of people working on this. Our projected release date for Beta was to be June or July of this year. With that in Beta and a finished product from WotC, we figured it was best to scrap the project, foolishly believing WotC had learned from past mistakes and was doing an adequate job of project planning. I wish we would have listened to one of the chief architects who said--n, they're gonna screw it up, let's do ours anyway. I even foolishly believed that a lack of more previews and a lack of communication was a good thing, because they were pushing so hard top get it done on time. That is, until it didn't come. Now, here I am, a bunch of my gaming friends are teachers, so their free summers would've been used across the country with DnDi to play some great games. The others may not have free summers, but more than half of the people I know purchased the product believing a viable form of an application would be out there to allow distance playing. Now, I've been walking people through returning their product, writing nasty letters in a nice way, setting up 3rd party freeware, and just Bsing about the game and the things we like/don't like about the game rather than playing it. Just a big kick in the teeth to me--or, that's how it feels anyway.
#8 kyros_tachyus Jun 10, 2008 23:51:27	All I can say is I agree 100%. Well said Epoch, well said. You should gain at least 3 levels immediately for that one :P Honestly though, thanks for taking charge and saying that stuff.
#9 epochgames Jun 11, 2008 0:01:19	All I can say is I agree 100%. Well said Epoch, well said. You should gain at least 3 levels immediately for that one :P Honestly though, thanks for taking charge and saying that stuff. Thanks, although I never meant to take charge, just add my two cents. Okay, I did want to take charge, but I never heard back the last time I applied with WotC back five years ago. *shrug* In all seriousness, though, I'm not trying to take swipes at Ken or GamerZero. I really do think they are trying, and I'm still here only because of the communication they started and have tried to continue. I want to keep an open mind, and I want to love 4e and DnDi, so I'm willing to give it all a chance. But, I hear them say they are sorry and they understand, I'm just not seeing it quite there yet. Come on, I'm a father. I know when my kids say they're sorry, I know when they mean it, and I know when they actually learn their lesson, customer service and business in general is only slightly less evolved than my children's manipulative capabilities.