Now, this same man is about to be deployed again. And this time, while he has the "classic" CB, since there won't be any updates, he won't get the new content. Heck, he might not even have the use of the CB if WotC pulls it (as I've heard speculated but not affirmed around the forums). And this doesn't apply just to him. This applies to the thousands of men and women in uniform who used the CB as an offline tool, and loved it, and put so many hours into it, that simply will not be able to anymore with the web-only tools. What "words of comfort" does WotC have for them? Because this is truly a very real situation. And a very real client base. In one group alone, over half of us are current or former military members. I hadn't seen any mention of them though, in all the posts, the tirades or the praise or anything in between so I thought someone should shine a light on them for a moment.
...Heck, he might not even have the use of the CB if WotC pulls it (as I've heard speculated but not affirmed around the forums)...
Here is a quote from the official announcement that might healp you with this:
On November 16, Wizards of the Coast will launch a brand new web-based version of the D&D Insider Character Builder. The current downloadable version will remain functional, but will no longer be available for download or updated with content after the new version goes live.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I hope this helps you.
EDIT: @Cathak: I was actually refering to his statement, not having found anything official in the forums about WotC removing the old CB. This wont help him using it, but it gives him an answer.
...Heck, he might not even have the use of the CB if WotC pulls it (as I've heard speculated but not affirmed around the forums)...
Here is a quote from the official announcement that might healp you with this:On November 16, Wizards of the Coast will launch a brand new web-based version of the D&D Insider Character Builder. The current downloadable version will remain functional, but will no longer be available for download or updated with content after the new version goes live.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I hope this helps you.
I'm sorry to say it won't help him. The current downloadable is not functionable because it got lots of stuff removed last update (like RPGA content) as well as missing content from as far back as Eberron, Adventurer's Vault and newer stuff like Essentials and Dark Sun are missing. Say nothing about the bunch o' minor bugs that are littered all over. (I know, CB was bound to get replaced sooner or later, but this is not the way to do it).
Scarlettlin, you should definitely send that to Customer Service.
I know what you mean, but from reading several of the hate threads that sprung up you are in the minority. Apparently most people being upset about the change used to subscribe for one or two months to permanently and irrevocably supply their whole group with all published content for like 10 bucks.
I think I don't have to explain why that was a pretty bad situation for WotC as a business. Why should I buy the books for 900$ (or something like that) if I can get the same amount of material for 10$ and even share it with my whole group?
While I can see that the change to the CB is going to hurt some people (like you unfortunately), I can also see the need for WotC to secure and protect their income. WotC was losing hundreds if not thousands of dollars for each subscriber who shared the CB with his group. From a business point of view it is pretty obvious that they needed to stop that exploit. Also, having all content stored locally on the clients wasn't helping against piracy, either.
I agree with the statement that you should voice your concerns to CustServ.
I was telling the truth and you called me ridiculous.
A broken radio doesn't make a car not functionable.
While I can see that the change to the CB is going to hurt some people (like you unfortunately), I can also see the need for WotC to secure and protect their income. WotC was losing hundreds if not thousands of dollars for each subscriber who shared the CB with his group. From a business point of view it is pretty obvious that they needed to stop that exploit. Also, having all content stored locally on the clients wasn't helping against piracy, either.
This is a common oppinion of product piracy, but it doesnt work out no matter how much the industry wants us to belive it.
If you "steal" a product, either by physically taking it away or downloading/hacking it.... the least thing you whould do if you can no longer steal it is to buy it.
How many carjackers to you know that can actually afford to buy a Ferrari? How many thiefs whould by the jewelery they have stolen, just to own that particular object?
If your product is taken/used without you getting the money, it whould normally cost to do so, that doesnt mean the person who did it whould otherwise pay you to use your product. He whould simply not use it anymore, or try to find new ways to get access to it.
All the discussion of not earned money from piracy, is just an imaginary game, there is no way to acuratly prove you have lost exactly (or even roughly) XXX$ and XXXCent.
I was telling the truth and you called me ridiculous.
A broken radio doesn't make a car not functionable.
I was talking about the character builder, not D&D4 as a whole, please read what I write before failing your analogies.
I was telling the truth and you called me ridiculous.
A broken radio doesn't make a car not functionable.
I was talking about the character builder, not D&D4 as a whole, please read what I write before failing your analogies.
His analogy is relatively accurate. The offline character builder still functions. It lets him create characters.
A half-dozen missing RPGA items? Not a problem. Lack of Dark Sun/Essentials? Sucks, but it still has the same functionality as before.
Broken shop? Ok, that's a serious issue, and one WotC really should fix (but won't.) But having one aspect of character creation require some extra effort isn't equivalent to the entire product being useless... that's just silly.
Look, there is plenty of room for legitimate complaints here, but every time someone overexaggerates, it makes it a lot harder for WotC to take legitimate concerns seriously.
I was telling the truth and you called me ridiculous.
A broken radio doesn't make a car not functionable.
I was talking about the character builder, not D&D4 as a whole, please read what I write before failing your analogies.
His analogy is relatively accurate. The offline character builder still functions. It lets him create characters.
A half-dozen missing RPGA items? Not a problem. Lack of Dark Sun/Essentials? Sucks, but it still has the same functionality as before.
Broken shop? Ok, that's a serious issue, and one WotC really should fix (but won't.) But having one aspect of character creation require some extra effort isn't equivalent to the entire product being useless... that's just silly.
Look, there is plenty of room for legitimate complaints here, but every time someone overexaggerates, it makes it a lot harder for WotC to take legitimate concerns seriously.
I realize that the old CB is functional but it won't have the new content going forward. That, combined with the move to an online-only web tool makes this a problem because the deployed soldiers have limited space and so cannot take all the books they might like to. Also, internet is severely restricted for those in Iraq, rendering the online only CB essentially not an option. I know of one soldier in particular and others through anecdotes of his who used the "classic" CB in their downtime, enjoyed it, and it even brought more people into the game. I also have heard "one bad apple spoils the bunch" and that's what causes companies to take steps like this, the bad apple of piracy or the fear of piracy. It protects the companies, sure, but it hurts others who do their best to do the right thing. As I type this, I'm sitting here looking at my shelf full of 4e books, some of which I have 2 of, sitting next to a bookshelf full of Dungeon/Dragon magazines and 3.5 books. I understand WotC's decision, but I want them to understand too who it is that is hurt by a move like this.
I realize that the old CB is functional but it won't have the new content going forward. That, combined with the move to an online-only web tool makes this a problem because the deployed soldiers have limited space and so cannot take all the books they might like to. Also, internet is severely restricted for those in Iraq, rendering the online only CB essentially not an option. I know of one soldier in particular and others through anecdotes of his who used the "classic" CB in their downtime, enjoyed it, and it even brought more people into the game. I also have heard "one bad apple spoils the bunch" and that's what causes companies to take steps like this, the bad apple of piracy or the fear of piracy. It protects the companies, sure, but it hurts others who do their best to do the right thing. As I type this, I'm sitting here looking at my shelf full of 4e books, some of which I have 2 of, sitting next to a bookshelf full of Dungeon/Dragon magazines and 3.5 books. I understand WotC's decision, but I want them to understand too who it is that is hurt by a move like this.
Oh yeah, I absolutely sympathize with his plight, and I think it is a very valuable point to bring up - anything 'online only' is going to be a big issue for troops abroad, for whom internet access is severely restricted. It's the same problem with any number of other games adopting internet-heavy DRM schemes, and at heart, that is a big part of what is going on here.
That said, I was mainly just objecting to the claim that the current CB is no longer functional for him. It remains so. It definitely sucks that he won't get any new content, but the CB will continue to work as it has before, and WotC won't be doing anything that will take it away from him.
That said, I was mainly just objecting to the claim that the current CB is no longer functional for him. It remains so. It definitely sucks that he won't get any new content, but the CB will continue to work as it has before, and WotC won't be doing anything that will take it away from him.
unless, of course, one day his computer crashes. then he'll go to some download sites and pirate what should have been his, or be very sad and find something else that lets him play offline.
either way, the loss is to WOTC - one customer less now is lots of bucks less in the long run.
Thanks for serving our country. I was in Iraq in 05'-06'. Come home safely.
Yeah, you're right. I got carried away a little, sorry. However, I still think that the CB sharing that was going on did cost WotC some money. And I can imagine that it was especially hard to justify the current model to their superiors.
WotC: "Hey, we just realized we were permanently giving away all our books for a one time payment of 10$."
Hasbro: "You mad? How so?"
WotC: "Our online tools work without requiring a login at each start so one guy can pay the subscription fee once and five people can use the Character Builder. Also, because all content is stored on the client's computer it can easily be copied and backed up."
Hasbro:
@Scarlettlin:
I understand your position and why the transition to a web application hurts you and your comrades. But posting on the forums won't get the decision makers at WotC to realize that. That's why others and I suggested writing your concerns to CustServ. That's the only way to make yourself heard, posting on the forums likely won't do.
@Kartesh:
Yeah, you're right. I got carried away a little, sorry. However, I still think that the CB sharing that was going on did cost WotC some money. And I can imagine that it was especially hard to justify the current model to their superiors.
WotC: "Hey, we just realized we were permanently giving away all our books for a one time payment of 10$."
Hasbro: "You mad? How so?"
WotC: "Our online tools work without requiring a login at each start so one guy can pay the subscription fee once and five people can use the Character Builder. Also, because all content is stored on the client's computer it can easily be copied and backed up."
Hasbro:
The fact that it was up until now possible to get a very complex tool by only paying a single subscribtion fee and beeing able to keep it might be one of the reasons they introduced the new online tools. Dont get me wrong, it is just common sense to expect an apropriate amount of money for a service you provide, and therefor i dont blame WotC for trying to bind the customer to a full time subscribtion.
The only problem i have with the way they tried to solve this situation, is that they chose the easiest way wich caused the product to loose some essential features it had so far. There are many options they could have chosen to prevent this from happening. For example a time restriction that requires the user to at least once a month go online with the tool and activate it for 30 days with an active subscribtion account, to be able to use it offline or another month.
For some customers, having the option of offlinetools was the main reason to keep subscribing. There was no need to take that option away from us.
Me for example, i will no longer subscribe, because i was in need of those offline tools. The sad thing about this is, is was a full time subscriber and whould habe continued to be one if they had allowed me to keep those features for as long as i was subscribing. There were no new online tools required to keep me as a customer, nothing more than what i had so far. Yet there is no sign from WotC to try and please customers like me, no "We will work on offlinetools that require an active subsciption." or the like. Plain silence, they are letting us go after two years of loyal membership, without the smallest compromise or sign of hope.
I'm not saying soldiers are entitled to all things awesome while they're deployed simply because they're soldiers... They are, after all, deployed during an occupation. I won't get into the politically heated discussion of supporting troops either. It suffices to say we all make choices in life, and personal sacrifice for the good of others - regardless of whether they were necessary - deserves some special consideration.
I'm sorry your friend is losing access to updates, but there is a lot of content in the legacy CB. Quirky bugs aside, I've been using it successfully for a year now, and I don't know if I could have pulled my group together without it. I hope something can be done to help alleviate the stress of day to day life for the gamers in uniform.
(PS - it bears mentioning that I'm not a US citizen or resident. I just saw this thread, and read that post last night... Thought I'd bring it to your attention.)
@Scarlettlin:
I know what you mean, but from reading several of the hate threads that sprung up you are in the minority. Apparently most people being upset about the change used to subscribe for one or two months to permanently and irrevocably supply their whole group with all published content for like 10 bucks.
I think I don't have to explain why that was a pretty bad situation for WotC as a business. Why should I buy the books for 900$ (or something like that) if I can get the same amount of material for 10$ and even share it with my whole group?
While I can see that the change to the CB is going to hurt some people (like you unfortunately), I can also see the need for WotC to secure and protect their income. WotC was losing hundreds if not thousands of dollars for each subscriber who shared the CB with his group. From a business point of view it is pretty obvious that they needed to stop that exploit. Also, having all content stored locally on the clients wasn't helping against piracy, either.
I agree with the statement that you should voice your concerns to CustServ.
You can use the "people might cheat the system" or "It makes Piracy easier" for almost anything why because unsavory people will ALWAYS find a way to cheat the system or pirate it somehow anything to try and stop that only makes things worse for the paying customers. It probably won't take long for said unsavory people to figure out how to update the old CB using the new CB or something.
Oh and FYI I'm a monthly subscriber for every month who was planning to subscribe for a year if they ever got back on schedule with updates and also coninvced alot of friends to start playing 4e and/or sign up for as an Insider because of how convienient the builder was...but now that WotC is restricting access alot of them have cancelled their sub and the rest just stopped playing altogether. Now I'm sure WotC could care less since they ignore their customers...but they lost 30~ customers because of this and from what I've read in this post they've lost a large chunk of an army...an ARMY you know the word people sometimes use to desribe as large number of people (See "An Army of Stephen King fans")
@P1NBACK: That was a little harsh don't cha' think.
@P1NBACK: That was a little harsh don't cha' think
Not really I would put serious money on the fact my brother (The Man) in question would say the same thing. Drink water don't complain and dump the sand out of your boots often.
The real point is we are looking for new ways to help keep the days moving toward the day he comes home.
For complete transparency although I could have zipped up and shipped him my CB and had him updated it in the field. We never did that to WoTC. We both paid our yearly subscriptions. In fact all of our group paid their yearly subscriptions every one of us. (Except Scarlett who uses my computer when she updates her Swordmage, Cleric, Paladin or Dead Avenger hehe a DM has to kill his wife's character or he is playing favorites)
WoTC customer service wrote a nice response to Scarlett's Letter submitted to them, it has not yet changed anything.
Thanks for all your comments and support.
@Kartesh:
Yeah, you're right. I got carried away a little, sorry. However, I still think that the CB sharing that was going on did cost WotC some money. And I can imagine that it was especially hard to justify the current model to their superiors.
WotC: "Hey, we just realized we were permanently giving away all our books for a one time payment of 10$."
Hasbro: "You mad? How so?"
WotC: "Our online tools work without requiring a login at each start so one guy can pay the subscription fee once and five people can use the Character Builder. Also, because all content is stored on the client's computer it can easily be copied and backed up."
Hasbro:
WotC: What would you propose?
Hasbro: Make a product people don't want to pirate.
WotC: Brilliant!
WotC: What would you propose?
Hasbro: Make a product people don't want to pirate.
WotC: Brilliant!
Hey, I thought it was funny.
And how? Apparently not even Blizzard can do that:
[...] The data shows that close to 100,000 copies were downloaded via BitTorrent on the first day alone, which is an astonishing number of pirates all in one place. The data also points out that “50,000 people [are] actively sharing the game” at the time of writing. [...]
We are all interested to hear your suggestions.
@RPJesus:
And how? Apparently not even Blizzard can do that:[...] The data shows that close to 100,000 copies were downloaded via BitTorrent on the first day alone, which is an astonishing number of pirates all in one place. The data also points out that “50,000 people [are] actively sharing the game” at the time of writing. [...]
We are all interested to hear your suggestions.
There is really no need to build a product that can not be "pirated", unless you can prove to the paying costomer, that there is a need to protect it from beeing "pirated".
Unless WotC can show us facts, that "piracy" has a major bad influence on their product, there is no reason to change the product to counter that "piracy".
Those that "pirate" a product are very unlikely to be legal customers, once they can no longer aquire the product via "piracy", nor do legal customers have any negative issues from someone else using the same service (or most likely a fraction of it), while not paying for it.
"Piracy" is an inconveniance fpr the company in many cases, but it doesnt damage the business the way they want us to belive it does.
First thing ya pirate is the character builder, then you find yourself pirating a long lost DVD you can't find in the store, then your pirating new movies. Eventually you wake up one day, captain of a ship in somolia wondering where your life went to.
Piracy is a gateway drug..
First thing ya pirate is the character builder, then you find yourself pirating a long lost DVD you can't find in the store, then your pirating new movies. Eventually you wake up one day, captain of a ship in somolia wondering where your life went to.
Wait...that would be AWESOME!!! Arrrr :P
Piracy is a gateway drug..
First thing ya pirate is the character builder, then you find yourself pirating a long lost DVD you can't find in the store, then your pirating new movies. Eventually you wake up one day, captain of a ship in somolia wondering where your life went to.
The otherwise serious discussion aside, I loved this. Made me laugh out loud
. Brilliant.
Piracy is a gateway drug..
First thing ya pirate is the character builder, then you find yourself pirating a long lost DVD you can't find in the store, then your pirating new movies. Eventually you wake up one day, captain of a ship in somolia wondering where your life went to.
While a joke, there is something to be said. If you want offline access to a character builder after the current one is discontinued, and your old copy is lost, the only way to get hold off one is by getting a pirated copy. And once you convince yourself that pirating one thing is ok, the stretch to the next rationalisation is a lot easier.
Piracy is a gateway drug..
First thing ya pirate is the character builder, then you find yourself pirating a long lost DVD you can't find in the store, then your pirating new movies. Eventually you wake up one day, captain of a ship in somolia wondering where your life went to.
While a joke, there is something to be said. If you want offline access to a character builder after the current one is discontinued, and your old copy is lost, the only way to get hold off one is by getting a pirated copy. And once you convince yourself that pirating one thing is ok, the stretch to the next rationalisation is a lot easier.
That is exactly the reason why to just "cut and run" is the worst possible solution.
Just listen to the newest podcast and hear them talking about the major issue they have with piracy, yet they literally drive some former customers to that direction. The first thing i was wondering about when they announced to cancel support on the old CB, was why they were removing the option to download it, once the new tools were released.
What do they fear could happen, if they let that old tool be legaly available?
The idea to have someone out there be able to use a tool you created without paying for it might hurt, but it doesnt do anything else than that. You might even be able to sew some money out of him for doing so, yet he didnt lower your actual profit.
Dont get me wrong, a company is right trying to prevent piracy of their products, but they have to do so without negatively influencing their product and their customers.
They can add whatever they think fits to a product in order to prevent piracy, but once they start making negative changes in order to do so, they have failed at setting priorities.
The customer comes first, not the potential pirate.
If this was normal procedure in any buisness, we might see full body scans at cinemas to prevent anyone from filming the movie, or beeing forced to enter a store in your ounderwear in order to prevent you from putting something into your pockets.
Unless your first priority is to make the customer happy, you are doing your job wrong. If doing the right thing causes you some casualties due to thievery or what ever, you simply adjust your prices to compensate it and to take measures to make it less likely to happen, while keeping your range of products at the same level it used to be. This is actual every day business, the prices we pay for any product are chosen to compensate for everything that is necessary to make the product available the way it is. If a company belives it can raise thier overall profit by employing additional gards to prevent thivery, they can do so and see if it works out, but they wont raise their prices nor make the product less desirable to the customer just to be sure there is less thievery, piracy or whatever.
The customer comes first, not the potential pirate.
And WotC seems to have forgotten that. This update focuses on the nonpaying or little paying customers. I guess it's lucky to be a pirate these days, you get so much attention and resources devoted to you. The silly paying customer shouldn't complain and keep paying for DRM or start sailing the high seas himself.
And WotC seems to have forgotten that. This update focuses on the nonpaying or little paying customers. I guess it's lucky to be a pirate these days, you get so much attention and resources devoted to you. The silly paying customer shouldn't complain and keep paying for DRM or start sailing the high seas himself.
Thing is, once you have put a lot of effort and money into a product, it is incredibly galling to see people just take it for free. It is a perfectly human response to try to prevent this by any means necessary. I am not saying that whoever decided to pull this is a bad person, or somehow morally deficient. I am just saying that they are not very clever.
As it stands, the pirate is able to keep their offline CB and can also easily find versions of the CB from before the last "update" which caused a lot of us some headache, and use these to create as many characters as they like.
Incidentally, they can also find maptools libraries that utilise the information from the DDI compendium, which are not available to the paying customer.
For us, the paying customer, however, we seem to see the level of utility reduced. It seems that joining the ranks of the pirates(aside from moral and legal options, but lets face it, WotC's policies implicitly label their customers as dirty thievin' criminals anyway) is by far the better option.
Focusing on pirates to the detriment of customers is always a no win scenario.
The silly paying customer shouldn't complain and keep paying for DRM or start sailing the high seas himself.
Welcome to the internet, all the piracy and none of the scurvy!
The silly paying customer shouldn't complain and keep paying for DRM or start sailing the high seas himself.
Welcome to the internet, all the piracy and none of the scurvy!
And Wizards are the British? ;)
The customer comes first, not the potential pirate.
And WotC seems to have forgotten that. This update focuses on the nonpaying or little paying customers. I guess it's lucky to be a pirate these days, you get so much attention and resources devoted to you. The silly paying customer shouldn't complain and keep paying for DRM or start sailing the high seas himself.
and yet even though the entire forum (except a few brown nosers) is aflame with basically a big giant NO,BAD,STOP!!!! WotC just continues on their merry way pretending we don't even exist and refusing to admit that MAYBE this was a bad idea.
Again I'd like to use a quote from a Dev over in DDO-Land of their latest mess-up
Tolero Says:
Last night, some DDO players received erroneous temporary suspensions or warnings regarding an exploit. Due to a technical issue in our exploit suspension process some players participating in the Mabar festival event were incorrectly notified of a rules violation. Any accounts that were temporarily banned as a result of this issue will have their account access restored and will be credited 100 Turbine Points. Any accounts that received warnings will have those warnings removed from their record.
This error was an isolated incident and should have no further impact for any DDO players. As always, we welcome player feedback on all aspects of DDO and continually seek to improve the quality of the service we provide to players.
We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or confusion and thank you for your patience while we worked to resolve the issue.
See giant mistake on their part...and guess what shortly after their offices open (yeah devs don't work 24/7 :P) they fixed and apologized...see WotC this is the difference, Turbine screws up just as much as you hell probably moreso the difference they LISTEN and RESPOND and than they FIX the ERROR..and on top of that 90% of time they COMPENSATE the people affected without being asked (See refunds = need to contact customer service...versus Auto-Refunds) simple eh?
@Kartesh:
Yeah, you're right. I got carried away a little, sorry. However, I still think that the CB sharing that was going on did cost WotC some money. And I can imagine that it was especially hard to justify the current model to their superiors.
WotC: "Hey, we just realized we were permanently giving away all our books for a one time payment of 10$."
Hasbro: "You mad? How so?"
WotC: "Our online tools work without requiring a login at each start so one guy can pay the subscription fee once and five people can use the Character Builder. Also, because all content is stored on the client's computer it can easily be copied and backed up."
Hasbro:
WotC: What would you propose?
Hasbro: Make a product people don't want to pirate.
WotC: Brilliant!
Now that is funny!