We're coming up on 2 years since paid Insider went live. Many of us that signed up at the beginning at the introductory rates and renewed before rates increased are going to need to decide whether to continue as members with a 20% cost increase or give up on DDI.
As we approach that magic renew date, I must admit that I've been disappointed with the direction that DDI has taken:
* The Monster Builder is still in beta and has lots of bugs (such as incorrect calculations, extraneous -1s, etc...)
* We saw no new Adventure Tools products in over a year.
* Articles in Dragon and Dungeon containing 'crunch' seem to be growing shorter and fewer in number (as well as being spread out over more classes/races/etc... meaning a lower percentage is useful for a certain PC).
* I've noticed a higher number of errors, inconsistencies and incomplete material in the Compendium, Character Builder and Monster Builder over the past 6 months. These problems range from simple editing mistakes to inconsistencies between different authors in how class features are supposed to be interpreted (Battlemind issues, etc...).
When I first signed up, I expected to be getting more for my money. Features like the game table and visualizer, which were arguably promised features soon to be released, never materialized. However, I considered the promised features to be worth well more than I was paying, and the actual features to be on the border between a reasonable benefit for the cost. When I renewed, I waffled on whether to do it, but decided that the initial 8 months of content, although less than promised, were worth the cost. Since I renewed, I've seen a decided decrease in quality and quantity of useful material. Less useful content, lower quality content, and higher costs.
As of now, I've decided to let my membership lapse. I turned off the autorenew a long time ago when I noticed a downward trend. I was really hoping that WotC was going to make an announcement at GenCon that would intrigue me and get me interested in renewing, but that has not occurred.
I'm not saying that Insider is useless. In the name of full disclosure, I will likely wait 4 to 12 months and then sign up for 1 month so that I can update the character builder, monster builder, etc... However, the reduction in quantity and quality of new services provides me with little incentive to renew at a higher cost for a full year of access. When I look at the most recent version of my PCs, only about 10% of their items, feats, and other options come from Dragon. The only use I've taken out of Dungeon has been a few maps I'll be using in the next campaign I might run, if I ever run the new campaign. That doesn't warrant the cost.
Would I reconsider? If WotC announced the Game Table, showed a plan for improving Dragon/Dungeon content back to acceptable levels, and/or made another step to increase the quality (or lower the price), I'd likely jump back on board. Compendium, when it is correct, is useful enough to justify some cost all by itself. However, I have heard no whispers in the wind that make me think any of that will happen in the next month.
Is anyone else in my boat? Anyone else letting their membership lapse at the magic 2 year renew date in October?
We're coming up on 2 years since paid Insider went live. Many of us that signed up at the beginning at the introductory rates and renewed before rates increased are going to need to decide whether to continue as members with a 20% cost increase or give up on DDI.
As we approach that magic renew date, I must admit that I've been disappointed with the direction that DDI has taken:
* The Monster Builder is still in beta and has lots of bugs (such as incorrect calculations, extraneous -1s, etc...)
* We saw no new Adventure Tools products in over a year.
* Articles in Dragon and Dungeon containing 'crunch' seem to be growing shorter and fewer in number (as well as being spread out over more classes/races/etc... meaning a lower percentage is useful for a certain PC).
* I've noticed a higher number of errors, inconsistencies and incomplete material in the Compendium, Character Builder and Monster Builder over the past 6 months. These problems range from simple editing mistakes to inconsistencies between different authors in how class features are supposed to be interpreted (Battlemind issues, etc...).
When I first signed up, I expected to be getting more for my money. Features like the game table and visualizer, which were arguably promised features soon to be released, never materialized. However, I considered the promised features to be worth well more than I was paying, and the actual features to be on the border between a reasonable benefit for the cost. When I renewed, I waffled on whether to do it, but decided that the initial 8 months of content, although less than promised, were worth the cost. Since I renewed, I've seen a decided decrease in quality and quantity of useful material. Less useful content, lower quality content, and higher costs.
As of now, I've decided to let my membership lapse. I turned off the autorenew a long time ago when I noticed a downward trend. I was really hoping that WotC was going to make an announcement at GenCon that would intrigue me and get me interested in renewing, but that has not occurred.
I'm not saying that Insider is useless. In the name of full disclosure, I will likely wait 4 to 12 months and then sign up for 1 month so that I can update the character builder, monster builder, etc... However, the reduction in quantity and quality of new services provides me with little incentive to renew at a higher cost for a full year of access. When I look at the most recent version of my PCs, only about 10% of their items, feats, and other options come from Dragon. The only use I've taken out of Dungeon has been a few maps I'll be using in the next campaign I might run, if I ever run the new campaign. That doesn't warrant the cost.
Would I reconsider? If WotC announced the Game Table, showed a plan for improving Dragon/Dungeon content back to acceptable levels, and/or made another step to increase the quality (or lower the price), I'd likely jump back on board. Compendium, when it is correct, is useful enough to justify some cost all by itself. However, I have heard no whispers in the wind that make me think any of that will happen in the next month.
Is anyone else in my boat? Anyone else letting their membership lapse at the magic 2 year renew date in October?
FWIW. I will be including this post in my weekly report to WotC.
Also, you appear to have it twice...
And why haven't you been reporting all the others that you have found?
I know why I don't report bugs - too much of a hassel to do it.
Seriously why isn't there a "report a bug" tab right there on the working pane of both tools? Why do I need to jump most of the way out of the program, then come to the web site, then do a little jig... ah you get the point.
That sounds to me like a good suggestion to be made through the feedback system.
summed up everything right here for me .....
instead of "good suggestion i will go ahead and put that in the feedback system for you" , you got ... go ahead and do it yourself because i dont have the time or energy to do it myself in a way that provides good customer support
You do realize that the feedback system he is talking about is the one where the VCLs, weekly, email WotC Community Management with suggestions, ideas and complaints that we find on the forums, right.
I intended to submit this one through you to make sure it got eyes on it, but at the same time, I want the end users to get into the habit of submitting bugs themselves, and not relying on me to do it for them. Teach a man to fish as opposed to giving him a fish.
I will submit bugs for people who are having trouble with the system, but not for someone who is already knowledgable about how the system works, and is just avoiding doing the work.
Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not a member of WotC customer support. I'm just an unpaid shmuck, who tries to be helpful. If you think I've screwed up, I'm more than happy to try and address the problem, but I do want to make sure that you recognize that I haven't gone through WotC customer support training or anything. Just another reason why I try to direct you to the official channels when you have a problem instead of doing it myself.
Edit: If you'd like to help us out, you can! community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Also if you want to teach a person to fish you need to show them how, not tell them fish taste nice.
).Long story short-I and my group (6 total), will not be renewing our accounts.
We stuck around to give WOTC the benefit of the doubt-and they have failed utterly.
It's too bad really.
I'll simply state that the quality of the service has gone nowhere but down.
We support 4e and will continue to play. I will continue to check in with WOTC and see how they're doing. I hope things get better.
For what it's worth to those of you out there-We've been having great success with Fantasy Grounds and TeamSpeak.
1. Lack of tools - In the years it's been since WotC released, there has been no push forward to make new tools. Regardless of "soon", no prrof that a tool is being worked on, means no tool. I can say I'm going to be ruler of all of north america "soon", but that means didally squat to anyone. Soon is not an answer to give to a mass of people waiting for your product.
2. Lack of Customer appreciation - See #1.
Let me put it this way, I will re-subscribe...."soon"
I made a dwarf cleric. You could also mess around with a human and some non-standard race, dragonborn, maybe.
That was over 2 years ago.
Why not sell that to anyone that wants to make only humans or dwarfs or Dragonborn?
It was made. I have a picture.
I have 3 books that have advertisements for the VTT or the Character Visualizer. I got back in to D&D at release, because I had heard about playing over the internet and PDFs.
Where are our PDFs?
And the content lately has gotten woefully low, that chart on page 1 is great.
And I we aren't being listened too.
Go look at this thread here if you want proof.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I'll need something big to keep me renewing every month.
Ugh.
Actually, I was purposefully ambiguous there, MB.
I intended to submit this one through you to make sure it got eyes on it, but at the same time, I want the end users to get into the habit of submitting bugs themselves, and not relying on me to do it for them. Teach a man to fish as opposed to giving him a fish.
I will submit bugs for people who are having trouble with the system, but not for someone who is already knowledgable about how the system works, and is just avoiding doing the work.
Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not a member of WotC customer support. I'm just an unpaid shmuck, who tries to be helpful. If you think I've screwed up, I'm more than happy to try and address the problem, but I do want to make sure that you recognize that I haven't gone through WotC customer support training or anything. Just another reason why I try to direct you to the official channels when you have a problem instead of doing it myself.
Edit: If you'd like to help us out, you can! community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Having to log out of my account, and log into a second, bug reporting whatever account, and fart around costs me 30 minutes of my day. Nobody is paying me to report bugs on this shiz, and really, they ought to be removing bugs off the list as they find them.
Many of the bugs are so simple to fix I could do it myself, they are math errors, refix the calculation, its just terrible.
That said, its the latest fiasco with them completely annoying me on the Dark Sun update, causing my group to have to fill out all their characters by hand instead of with the CB, thats the final straw. I cancelled my monthly sub today, after news broke.
Bug Reporting is a hassle for the end-user. WoTC makes it a triple hassle by adding layers of suck to the process, like needing to sign up for a second account for bug reporting/complaining privileges. They ought to make it as easy as possible, but I'll leave it open as to why it is not.
Having to log out of my account, and log into a second, bug reporting whatever account, and fart around costs me 30 minutes of my day. Nobody is paying me to report bugs on this shiz, and really, they ought to be removing bugs off the list as they find them.
...
Bug Reporting is a hassle for the end-user. WoTC makes it a triple hassle by adding layers of suck to the process, like needing to sign up for a second account for bug reporting/complaining privileges. They ought to make it as easy as possible, but I'll leave it open as to why it is not.
You have to log into a seperate account? Thats not kosher. You should be able to do it all through a single account.
I hesitate to ask this, but... Have you asked them about this and tried to get that resolved? If there is some reason you can't report bugs through your primary account, that should really get fixed.
Click the Customer Servide link, under the Corporate heading, and that will take you right to CS.
There you can send a bug report. I think it goes to the same people.
I will re-up when Dark Sun is added to the character builder, and not one moment before.
I've had the book since July, its now mid September. Refunding my money takes the sting away from the wound, but it doesn't solve the problem, and I am not going to let them sneak away from the problem by throwing my 9.95 at it. The problem is I want the books I've purchased added to the character builder, so I can continue to enjoy the convenience of the CB.
Its the only reason I pay the 9.95 at all.
PINKROSE SAID:
I'll need something big to keep me renewing every month.
I asked CS for and received my refund for the month.
I'm not bragging, I just want to convince those that scream at CS that they do listen.
This goes a long way to getting me to subscribe again when my sub runs out.
I appreciate that level of customer service, though I think it should have been automatic for all.
I do hope that those of us asking convince WotC to take a look at the product they are offering and improve the quality back to the standard we are looking for.
Isn't everyone impacted? Shouldn't we all get a free month? Or is it only available to those that will jump through hoops?
I'm not surprised. It would be unusual for them to toss an entire month's revenue out the window. However, once you've acknowledged that a refund is just and appropriate, you're pretty much saying you're taking people's money inappropriately and unjustly for a month if you don't give the refund to everyone.
Regardless, a refund would not improve the chances of me reupping - which remains at 0% until such time as the quality, quantity or utility of the offering meets my expectations. Until then, I'll just do a one month subscription once or twice a year.
Isn't everyone impacted? Shouldn't we all get a free month? Or is it only available to those that will jump through hoops?
It all depends.
If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
Isn't everyone impacted? Shouldn't we all get a free month? Or is it only available to those that will jump through hoops?
It all depends.
If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
We pay for access, not for use.
If we do not use Insider in a given month, we can't ask for a refund because we didn't make use of it. WotC provided us access, so we need to pay for it.
Further, if we only need to have access to Insider for the character builder so we can build our 5th level gnome fighter, we do not get a 90% discount because we do not use 90% of what is in Insider.
Access is what we pay for - and access to new materials is what WotC did not provide. WotC deemed that lack of new material access to be an incident worthy of refund. It doesn't matter whether people would make use of the new materials or not. All that matters here is that access was denied to all the people that paid who have a reasonable expectation of updates, even if WotC is not contractually bound to provide those updates.
I don't expect WotC to step up and offer refunds to everyone. That would be a devastating monetary loss. However, I do see WotC raising a hand and saying they think they should provide refunds. And I do not see them doing what they think they should be doing.
I'm adding the decrease in professional responsibility to the list of things that have decreased in DDI (quality of presentation, quantity of crunch, quantity of new offerings, etc...).
Isn't everyone impacted? Shouldn't we all get a free month? Or is it only available to those that will jump through hoops?
It all depends.
If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
We pay for access, not for use.
If we do not use Insider in a given month, we can't ask for a refund because we didn't make use of it. WotC provided us access, so we need to pay for it.
Note, by them, I am talking about the player, not WotC.
The player who doesn't play DS, or doesn't use a psionic character may not care that the tools haven't been updated. For them, access to the compendium and having access to all the magazines may be entirely worth it.
Access is what we pay for - and access to new materials is what WotC did not provide. WotC deemed that lack of new material access to be an incident worthy of refund. It doesn't matter whether people would make use of the new materials or not. All that matters here is that access was denied to all the people that paid who have a reasonable expectation of updates, even if WotC is not contractually bound to provide those updates.
But as I said, there may be people, who don't care that the tools weren't updated. For them, having access to the tolls, unupdated is worth the $X a month that they pay.
But as I said, there may be people, who don't care that the tools weren't updated. For them, having access to the tolls, unupdated is worth the $X a month that they pay.
I don't do much in the way of WotC bashing and I've got no beef with you, mudbunny. That said, if that line was any more lame, they'd put up a tent around it on the track and shoot it.
For the sake of discussion, I'll stipulate that there are as many people who don't care as you'd like there to be. Here's why we're upset, in WotC's own words.
From wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/insid...
"With access to every book and online article, the D&D Character Builder makes building and leveling your characters easier then ever before." (Emphasis mine.)
From wizards.com/DnD/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/too...
"What is the D&D Compendium?
The D&D Compendium is a browser-based utility that allows you to search for every rules element in the game." (Again, emphasis mine. I'd also like to point out this isn't true even when things are on time.)
From wizards.com/DnD/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/too...
"The D&D Monster Builder Beta lets you browse over 2,500 official D&D monsters and paste them into your documents. You can take an existing monster from any D&D rulebook or online article and customize it for your own campaign, including changing its statistics, increasing its level and role, replacing powers, and adding new ones." (Okay, I like to bold things.)
I know Rome wasn't built in a day. I know things take time. I know things don't always go as planned.
I also know a camel can only carry so many straws.
What I am saying is that there are people who don't care that the tools weren't updated this month, and for whom getting the $x back that they paid for the month is not important.
Rearranging your comments a bit.
What I am saying is that there are people who don't care that the tools weren't updated this month, and for whom getting the $x back that they paid for the month is not important.
I'm sure those people exist. I'm not really even interested in getting anything back, but more on that later.
As a result of almost 2 years of updates to the Character Builder, and a years worth of updates to the Monster Builder, WotC has, despite what the EULA says, created the expectation that the tools will be updated monthly, without fail.
"Without fail" is not a reasonable expectation of anyone. I really wish you hadn't brought up the EULA, though.
7. Updates and Patches. --snip-- Notwithstanding the foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches, updates or modification to the Software.
All the marketing material says "you get everything". The legalese follows up by saying "everything means what we feel like it means." Working in insurance, I know standard legal boilerplate when I see it. The fact remains, this is in direct contradiction to what we've been sold. As I mentioned earlier, there are still rules elements that don't appear even when things are perfectly on time.
And the facts are also that there has been, nor will there be (unless something unexpected happens) an update taking place during the month of September.
Yep.
Let me be 100% perfectly clear: I am not saying that people don't have the right to be annoyed/pissed/angry that the updates aren't being done for september. Far from it.
I'm glad to hear it and I take your word for it. It just didn't really come across that way.
As soon as I found out about the delay, I was poking WotC letting them know that people are going to be expecting some sort of compensation for their not being an update in september.
Speaking only for myself, I don't want compensation. I want communication. Since day one of 4e, the biggest problem has been communication with us.
PHB2's development and previews in Dragon should be the model and not the exception. On the other hand, we've got a 24 pg (and counting) thread with unanswered Essentials questions (a couple of which are actually politely worded). Waiting three weeks to find out the update will be another three weeks late is annoying, but not the end of the world by itself. It's not by itself, though. We really feel like we're getting stone-walled, despite the valiant efforts of people like yourself.
I'm adding the decrease in professional responsibility to the list of things that have decreased in DDI (quality of presentation, quantity of crunch, quantity of new offerings, etc...).
I agreed up until this point.
I don't understand how, if a company is giving refunds, you can ding them for that.
I think of DDi as more of a country club fee. I pay a monthly fee to use the golf course, the pool, the club house and the restaurant.
If I don't go, I still pay my monthly fee (if I don't use the DDi for a month).
Sometimes, the pool is closed for maintenance (the Character Builder isn't updated).
Once in awhile, I pay my normal fee, and they open a new 9 hole course (another Adventure Tool is released).
I just wish they kept the rough mowed a little more consistant, and the greens were a little faster (less bugs & faster updates).
The big issue is that there are no other courses in my area, so if they stop watering, I'm forced to play on the brown fairways, until I decide it's just not fun (DDi is it, unless I decide I'm done with D&D, but I'm not there yet.)
I didn't ask for my money back becasue I needed my 4.95 to eat this month.
I did it because I wanted to send a message that I was unhappy. Like if CS is the guy behind the counter at the Pro shop, getting my refund was talking to the Golf Pro himself. I sent a stronger message then just talking to CS.
And by getting that refund, I have decided to come back to the golf course, once more, give it one more try. Maybe it was just a bad day for the groundskeeper. I still got my round in, still got a day away from the family, and it was worth it, $0 for September, so the least I can do is try the course once more.
We pay for access, not for use.
If we do not use Insider in a given month, we can't ask for a refund because we didn't make use of it. WotC provided us access, so we need to pay for it.
Note, by them, I am talking about the player, not WotC.
The player who doesn't play DS, or doesn't use a psionic character may not care that the tools haven't been updated. For them, access to the compendium and having access to all the magazines may be entirely worth it.
I saw your point and made a counter point: We're not paying for what we use. We're paying for what we have access to use. We don't get to complain if we buy the product and don't use it because we paid for access. Similarly, whether we use it or not, we should have access to use it if we're being charged. Every single Insider customer is sitting here today without access to the materials that the marketing and the performance of WotC has EFFECTIVELY promised to us, whether legally bound by the EULA or not.
WotC AGREED that people should be refunded for this failure to provide access when they started issuing refunds. Everyone was denied access. Seems simple enough.
And, by the way, I am ... frustrated by the idea that getting something "entirely worth it" for your money, but that is far shy of what people were lead to believe they'd receive, is acceptable. That is the core of a bait and switch tactic, which is deplorable.
Access is what we pay for - and access to new materials is what WotC did not provide. WotC deemed that lack of new material access to be an incident worthy of refund. It doesn't matter whether people would make use of the new materials or not. All that matters here is that access was denied to all the people that paid who have a reasonable expectation of updates, even if WotC is not contractually bound to provide those updates.
But as I said, there may be people, who don't care that the tools weren't updated. For them, having access to the tolls, unupdated is worth the $X a month that they pay.
But, as I said, the use is not the key. We pay for access. Not use. We can't get a refund if we don't use Insider once we order it. To be explicit here: We pay WotC to provide us access. We pay for access, and WotC is paid to provide access.
WotC failed to provide a service that people had a reasonable expectation they'd receive when they made payment for that service.
I can't think of an industry where failure to provide service paid for, even if the service would not be used, is ok.
If you pay an annual gym membership but stop going during a period you've prepaid because of an injury, would you want money back if you discovered all of the gyms closed for 6 months and you couldn't have gone even if healthy?
If you paid for a medical monitoring device and service, and discovered that they'd been charging you for three years but turned off your system as soon as you received it, would you expect to be refunded for the three years of service (even if you never pressed the button)?
If you ordered a cable service and the company failed to turn it on, would you expect to be charged for it even if you were too busy to watch TV?
I've seen all three of those situations. In all three, refunds were given. In all three, people paid for access/opportunity to use - they did not pay for the actual use they derived. When access was found to have been denied, it was determined that charging for access that was not granted would be wrong. Result: refund.
WotC is getting my money so that I can have access to all the new book and all the magazine content in a timely fashion. I have a reasonable expectation based upon marketing materials and presentation by the company that I'd have these materials within Insider in a timely fashion. WotC failed to meet that reasonable expectation. IT DOESN'T MATER IF I WOULD NOT HAVE USED IT - I am charged for access, not use.
WotC is in the wrong by not issuing refunds to all customers if they determine that any customer deserves a refund due to the lack of an update. I don’t expect them to get 'out of the wrong' by issuing a massive refund. I expect that they'll keep the money from the people that do not complain. However, getting away with something is not the same as that thing being right.
On a separate note: Even players not using DS and Psionic characters were denied access to Dragon and Dungeon content updates.
And, by the way, I am ... frustrated by the idea that getting something "entirely worth it" for your money, but that is far shy of what people were lead to believe they'd receive, is acceptable. That is the core of a bait and switch tactic, which is deplorable.
I looked over my last two posts in this thread, looking for where I said that it was acceptable that people didn't get an update, and I couldn't find it. Is it possible that you are reading things into my posts that aren't there??
There is a significant difference between "Some people don't care that the tools weren't updated, and don't feel like asking for a refund" (what I said) and "people should just accept that they didn't get an update" (which is what you seem to be saying that I said).
I am not addressing the rest of your post simply because you seem to be arguing against a position that I didn't take.
Based on my viewpoint, what others have said, and the lack of response from Wizards here is what I did;
Email received:
This email is to confirm that we have stopped automatic billing for your subscription. Your subscription will continue to be active until the expiration date listed below.
At that time, you will have to manually renew or your subscription will be cancelled.
Subscription Details:
Original Order Number: 7835725700
Expiration Date: 10/29/2010
If you have questions about your order, please visit:www.findmyorder.com
Yours Sincerely,
Dungeons and Dragons Insider Customer Service
www.findmyorder.com
Now I can no longer complain about the shoddy service and by actually taking this step, and I hope others follow, send a message to WotC that dangit I (we) are not gonna take it any more. For those of you still dipping into the punch bowl let me get you my paypal account info and you can send me 5 a month and I will provide you a Eula that says I do not have to give you anything for the subscription. WOW, that sounded silly does this type of business practice actually work? It must many of us have been paying for something like it for years now.
Now I can no longer complain about the shoddy service and by actually taking this step, and I hope others follow, send a message to WotC that dangit I (we) are not gonna take it any more. For those of you still dipping into the punch bowl let me get you my paypal account info and you can send me 5 a month and I will provide you a Eula that says I do not have to give you anything for the subscription. WOW, that sounded silly does this type of business practice actually work? It must many of us have been paying for something like it for years now.
I would highly recommend, if you want to get your point across effectively, to contact WotC somehow (by phone, letter, email or support ticket) and let them know that you cancelled your auto-renew and *why* you cancelled it. Otherwise, they only see that someone cancelled their auto-renew, and they have no way of knowing why.
What I am saying is that there are people who don't care that the tools weren't updated this month, and for whom getting the $x back that they paid for the month is not important.
I'm one of those people. And unlike those people I'm probably more vocal about it then they are.
It's six bucks. And while I can't speak for everyone's financial situation, I would say that if six bucks is going to make a big difference in your monthly financial situtation, perhaps you shouldn't be getting DDI, or spending money on a product that is not needed to live. This is a hobby supported by disposible income.
So I have very little sympathy for anyone upset over not getting what they see as value for $6. Since WoTC has show themselves very willing to refund a months worth of subscription cost, if you ask. Which they are not at all legally bound to.
And by no means, am I rich. I live in Manhattan, which isn't cheap, and I don't work full time, but as a freelancer, which often means times of lean income.
For me, it's a matter of perspective. If it's a matter of principles about $6, then maybe I've lost perspective. I'm not letting someone rip me off, because I understand that $6 bucks never meant I would get updated each and every month.
Heck I don't even play DnD every month. Sometimes our schedules just don't allow it.
It's six bucks.
Would'nt it depend on how long the person signed up for DDi for? If you sign up for less then a year at a time, it works out to more then 6 bucks a month, I think.
It's six bucks.
Would'nt it depend on how long the person signed up for DDi for? If you sign up for less then a year at a time, it works out to more then 6 bucks a month, I think.
Yup. Between $6 and $10, depending on whether you choose a 12-month, 3 month or 1 month subscription.
I looked over my last two posts in this thread, looking for where I said that it was acceptable that people didn't get an update, and I couldn't find it. Is it possible that you are reading things into my posts that aren't there?
There is a significant difference between "Some people don't care that the tools weren't updated, and don't feel like asking for a refund" (what I said) and "people should just accept that they didn't get an update" (which is what you seem to be saying that I said).
I am not addressing the rest of your post simply because you seem to be arguing against a position that I didn't take.
I am not saying that you said "people should just accept that they didn't get an update". I'm not sure where you got that.
You said (emphasis mine):
If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
By the way: The answer could still be yes: The Dungeon and Dragon materials were not updated, either).
Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
Here, you seem to be saying that the failure to provide the services that people believed they would get - namely access to new materials - is excusable if people do not complain and would not have used the materials. I can't see any other way to read those two sentences other than that you think that not USING/PLAYING WITH the materials and FAILURE TO COMPLAIN remove someone from the pool of people that deserve/should get a refund.
My point is that people are not paying to USE/PLAY WITH the materials, we pay for ACCESS. See my posts above. Whether it was used or not has no impact what-so-ever because we did not pay for use - we paid for access.
Further, whether we complain or not does not change the merits of the claim that we have as customers: WotC treated all Insiders the same. They decided that the way they treated Insiders was worthy of a refund. They decided only to refund the squeaky wheels. That is not unexpected, but it is not fair.
To address another point recently raised in this thread, the discussion of the amount of money has no impact on the justness of the issue. The amount may impact how much customers 'feel' the taking, but it doesn't impact the justness of the taking. Wrong is wrong, even if the amount may seem diminimous to some.
Further, saying it is ok at a small amount because it isn't orth the trouble opens the door for the limits to be pushed.
If it is ok for WotC to take $6 to $10 from some customers while knowing that they should give that money back to those customers (based upon their admission that a refund to other customers in identical situations is appropriate), when does it not become ok? What if it were 2 months ($12 to $20)? 3 months ($18 to $30)? 4 months ($24 to $40)? At what point does the taking become unacceptable?
If WotC can take $6 to $10 undeserved, can everyone else you do business with take it as well? Cable, phone, cell phone, utilities, landlord, MMORPG companies, colleges, restaurants, insurance companies, the government, other game producers, your roommates... can they all just have an underserved $6 to $10, too? Why is it ok for WotC if it wouldn't be ok for everyone? Is ($6 to $10) X (20 entities taking money) ok?
(If it is ok for everyone, I'll be happy to provide a method for you to send me my cut.)
(If it is ok for everyone, I'll be happy to provide a method for you to send me my cut.)
Hey Myztek
Dane is my fish nibbling on my paypal suggestion, get your own complacent consumer 
.
I was in the final stages of putting some software together with a EULA that he would like and quote to justify sending me money.
Seriously, when I first started reading this thread I saw it as a move to get others feed up with this crap to start something WotC would take notice of. I pasted my email turning my auto-renew off, I would like to see more people do it. All the griping and complaining did like ZERO the last few times they have delayed the updates.
I am concerned that someone would just say MEH it is 6 bucks, but to each his/her own. I work full time with a steady salary, in a state that does not tax me half to death, and you know what; paying 6+ bucks for nothing chaps my arse. For those of you that want to defend this method of "doing business" why not start your own thread and expound the benefits of paying for nothing. Those of you that are fed up with it cancel your autorenew and paste the email. I am sure WotC personnel are reading this so lets show them our discontent. In these economic times what better way to send a message then with our wallets.
For those of you still dipping into the punch bowl let me get you my paypal account info and you can send me 5 a month and I will provide you a Eula that says I do not have to give you anything for the subscription. WOW, that sounded silly does this type of business practice actually work? It must many of us have been paying for something like it for years now.
I'll send you $6 a month if you provide me with 2 magazines worth of information with at least 30 articles, one each day (some I use & some I don't). Access to a Compendium that has all information that has been released since May 2008 up until August (maybe July) 2010. Constant updates on the products I use. AND a place to come and complain about you if you do screw up.
I cancelled my auto-renew.
I am unhappy with the quality of the magazines.
I asked for (and got) a refund for this month because I felt I needed to send a message.
But I am far from unhappy with DDi. Just mildly concerned.
And if they fix the damn colour of home-made monsters in the Adventure Tool, I'll subscribe for life!
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I am not saying that you said "people should just accept that they didn't get an update". I'm not sure where you got that.
You said (emphasis mine):If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
By the way: The answer could still be yes: The Dungeon and Dragon materials were not updated, either).Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
Here, you seem to be saying that the failure to provide the services that people believed they would get - namely access to new materials - is excusable if people do not complain and would not have used the materials.
No. You have completely, 100% misread what I am saying. Let me spell it out, in one last attempt to try to get my message across. But first, a preamble, because I apparently have to: The following statements in no way are attempts to imply or state that it is acceptable that WotC didn't put out an update, nor are they attempts to imply or say that people should accept that there was update.
- There may be people out there, who have no interest in Dark Sun, no interest in Psionics, and no interest in the magazine content that should have come in the September update. For those people, the fact that there was no September update may not bother them.
- There may be people out there for whom the refund amount (be it $6 or $10) is not worth the hassle of asking CS for a refund.
I can't see any other way to read those two sentences other than that you think that not USING/PLAYING WITH the materials and FAILURE TO COMPLAIN remove someone from the pool of people that deserve/should get a refund.
Saying that people don't want a refund != saying people don't deserve a refund.
Further, whether we complain or not does not change the merits of the claim that we have as customers: WotC treated all Insiders the same. They decided that the way they treated Insiders was worthy of a refund. They decided only to refund the squeaky wheels. That is not unexpected, but it is not fair.
Have we seen a statement by WotC indicating what their decision is for the missed month of September? A statement saying that everyone is getting compensation? Perhaps a statement indicating that only those that complain will begetting compensation? Please point it out to me so that I can pass the word. Trevor is usually pretty good for letting me know when stuff like that has been announced, but perhaps his IM or email got lost in the ether.
I am not saying that you said "people should just accept that they didn't get an update". I'm not sure where you got that.
You said (emphasis mine):If someone isn't playing in Dark Sun and isn't playing a Psionic character either, does it matter to them that the tools haven't been updated to include those data points?
By the way: The answer could still be yes: The Dungeon and Dragon materials were not updated, either).Then there are people who may be "so a month got missed. Doesn't bother me any. Not worth the hassle, as little as it is, of filling out a CS form to ask for a refund."
Here, you seem to be saying that the failure to provide the services that people believed they would get - namely access to new materials - is excusable if people do not complain and would not have used the materials.
No. You have completely, 100% misread what I am saying. Let me spell it out, in one last attempt to try to get my message across. But first, a preamble, because I apparently have to: The following statements in no way are attempts to imply or state that it is acceptable that WotC didn't put out an update, nor are they attempts to imply or say that people should accept that there was update.Again, remember: The above statement in no way are attempts to imply or state that it is acceptable that WotC didn't put out an update, nor are they attempts to imply or say that people should accept that there was update.
- There may be people out there, who have no interest in Dark Sun, no interest in Psionics, and no interest in the magazine content that should have come in the September update. For those people, the fact that there was no September update may not bother them.
Again, remember: The above statement in no way are attempts to imply or state that it is acceptable that WotC didn't put out an update, nor are they attempts to imply or say that people should accept that there was update.
- There may be people out there for whom the refund amount (be it $6 or $10) is not worth the hassle of asking CS for a refund.
I can't see any other way to read those two sentences other than that you think that not USING/PLAYING WITH the materials and FAILURE TO COMPLAIN remove someone from the pool of people that deserve/should get a refund.
Saying that people don't want a refund != saying people don't deserve a refund.Further, whether we complain or not does not change the merits of the claim that we have as customers: WotC treated all Insiders the same. They decided that the way they treated Insiders was worthy of a refund. They decided only to refund the squeaky wheels. That is not unexpected, but it is not fair.
Have we seen a statement by WotC indicating what their decision is for the missed month of September? A statement saying that everyone is getting compensation? Perhaps a statement indicating that only those that complain will begetting compensation? Please point it out to me so that I can pass the word. Trevor is usually pretty good for letting me know when stuff like that has been announced, but perhaps his IM or email got lost in the ether.
And now we run into the EXACT same problem we have had since day one of DDI. No information coming from any official source. It's all speculation and hey maybe's.
You know very well mudbunny that WotC isn't going to let go of any money that they don't have to. And you also know that there will be no statement forthcoming from anyone there. Just one more screw up in a LONG LONG LONG line of screw ups dealing with DDI. But hey, at least this fiasco has diverted attention away from the fact that there are no new tools coming out.
And now we run into the EXACT same problem we have had since day one of DDI. No information coming from any official source. It's all speculation and hey maybe's.
You mean other than the official broadcast announcing there wasn't going to be an update and the apology.
You know very well mudbunny that WotC isn't going to let go of any money that they don't have to. And you also know that there will be no statement forthcoming from anyone there. Just one more screw up in a LONG LONG LONG line of screw ups dealing with DDI. But hey, at least this fiasco has diverted attention away from the fact that there are no new tools coming out.
You mean other than the refunds for September they're giving to anyone who asks?
And now we run into the EXACT same problem we have had since day one of DDI. No information coming from any official source. It's all speculation and hey maybe's.
You mean other than the official broadcast announcing there wasn't going to be an update and the apology.
You know very well mudbunny that WotC isn't going to let go of any money that they don't have to. And you also know that there will be no statement forthcoming from anyone there. Just one more screw up in a LONG LONG LONG line of screw ups dealing with DDI. But hey, at least this fiasco has diverted attention away from the fact that there are no new tools coming out.
You mean other than the refunds for September they're giving to anyone who asks?
Why should we have to ask at this point?
I just contacted CS for extended time, but this is Sunday so...
I have been barking at DDi for a while now. I hope more people stand up.
Everyone should make some noise.
STORM THE GATES !
And now we run into the EXACT same problem we have had since day one of DDI. No information coming from any official source. It's all speculation and hey maybe's.
You mean other than the official broadcast announcing there wasn't going to be an update and the apology.
You know very well mudbunny that WotC isn't going to let go of any money that they don't have to. And you also know that there will be no statement forthcoming from anyone there. Just one more screw up in a LONG LONG LONG line of screw ups dealing with DDI. But hey, at least this fiasco has diverted attention away from the fact that there are no new tools coming out.
You mean other than the refunds for September they're giving to anyone who asks?
Why should we have to ask at this point?
I tend to go by Blizzard's example, which extended subscriptions when they mess-up, but only for the time inconvenienced. WotC, having delayed the September update from the 20th to early October, should do the classy thing and add 2-3 weeks onto every active subscriber's account, shifting their next renewal date forward.
However, this really, really, really depends on the system WotC (or rather Digital River, who actually handles that sort of thing) has in place for updating accounts. It might not be set-up for a mass update. And asking someone to manually adjust the next payment date of 39,738 people is silly.
So, lacking all the facts, I tentatively support the decision to refund those who ask, because it is looking after those customers who are dissatisfied.
Why should we have to ask at this point?
I could not have put it better. Grass roots move, cancel the auto renewal everyone. Corporate koolaid drinkers you can skip the last part.
And now we run into the EXACT same problem we have had since day one of DDI. No information coming from any official source. It's all speculation and hey maybe's.
Just one more screw up in a LONG LONG LONG line of screw ups dealing with DDI. But hey, at least this fiasco has diverted attention away from the fact that there are no new tools coming out.
QFT.
After this month my playing might be slashed and I might lose a player for a few months (the leader of course). And my tight finances might be stretched tighter. Losing Septembers update might end up hurting my opinion of the product if I'm stuck with the glitchy, broken Monster Builder for a few months.
The way I see this whole thing (just to bring this whole thing back to the original topic of the thread):
1.) Crunch content per article has decreased in quantity in Dragon and Dungeon.
2.) As more races, classes and options have been added to the game and the articles have maintained their single race/class/option focus, the percentage of articles with materials relevant to a given character's race/class/option combinations has decreased. When Dragon first went online for 4E, there were 8 classes to serve with articles. Now there are about 3 times as many classes (plus hybrids) to service. Once there were 8 races to service - now we have about 3 times as many. That means that we've seen a 2/3 reduction in the chance a particular article will service our character. This 2/3 reduction is not the same as the reduction in the amount of crunch per article.
When you combine the reduced crunch per article with the reduced applicability of artivles to individual PCs, I'd estimate that we've seen an 80% to 90% decrease in the amount of applicable material generated in a given month on average for a particular PC.
3.) Updates to Compendium, CB and MB have become more unreliable and have been delayed and/or skipped.
4.) No new Insider programs (like the MB) have been announced, although we've been told that one is just around the corner (and has been just around the corner since early in 2010).
5.) The CB and MB have really not evolved in about a year. The MB is still beta, and the CB still lacks a lot of functionality (basic implementation of homebrew magic items, power cards where we supply all the text, etc...) and contains a lot of errors (missing data, incorrect calculations, etc...)
6.) Editing within the Compendium, CB and MB have all taken a hit over the past year. I encounter more mistakes that should be cleaned up - and probably should have been cleaned up before the material was presented if WotC wanted to prodice a professional product.
All in all, the quality seems to have taken a huge dive over the past 2 years. It screams to me of understaffing. Considering the number of members of the Insider group (~40,000 - which may not reflect the total number of Insiders) each paying ~$60 per year on average minimum, there should have been millions of dollars to support the cost of Insider. That is in addition to a portion of book revenues, supplemental materials (figures, dice, adventures) revenues, etc...
6.) For those that paid the intro rate for their first two years of service, reupping in September/October/November would represent a ~20% price increase.
7.) WotC has not announced a massive refund for the month of lost service. I would guess doing so would cost them so much revenue that it could kill DDI if they do a one month massive refund.
Less applicable crunch contenter + lower quality + higher prices.
All of that on top of the benefits of Insider not being well suited to a subscription model.
Just thought I would post an email from WotC. I guess they have not read my forum posts 
.... Oh and be sure to read the bold I mean wtf, I cannot just manually renew I have to go through 
customer service.
"Dear [name changed to protect the innocent]
The subscription detailed below will be expiring 29 days from today. Since you were one of the first subscribers, we wanted to invite you to renew your service before it runs out.
Product Name Subscription Date Expiration Date Amount
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Year Dungeons and Dragon 10/28/2008 10/29/2010 $71.40
To renew your subscription, you'll want to wait 29 days until your subscription is completely finished. You'll have a few days grace period before your access to D&D Insider officially goes away. At that time, please place a new subscription order at www.wizards.com/DnD/Tools.aspx.
Please note -- if you want to use Manual Renewal again, you will need to notify Customer Service in order to turn off Auto-Renew on your new purchase. We apologize for this inconvenience and are working on streamlining this process.
We hope that you've enjoyed D&D Insider and we look forward to your continued participation!
Sincerely,
Wizards of the Coast, Inc."
I guess they have not read my forum posts
I detect sarcasm. But just in case, this looks pretty automated. Doubt that it indicates one way or another if your forum posts are being read.
I detect sarcasm.
You are correct. Laughter is the best medicine and this just cracked me up so much 
I had to share.....Whether or not WotC intended, there's an expectation of behavior that's set before them. A lot of companies have been pushing towards this model of ethics and it both disturbing and appalling that WotC has decided to sink to this level. I'm not trying to insult them, however, if they wish to live by this level of 'honesty', so shall I.
I paid for a product I never received.
I didn't say so originally, as I was given the expectation that the value of what I was paying for easily made up for the lack of the digital table top. I supported their efforts and the new pricing structure, although I did agree with those whom felt that this was a psudo-legal bait and switch tactic. As of yet, I have found the product unsatisfactory. WotC has one month to show thier value before I cancel for good and write a scathing article online regarding the history of TSR, Dungeons and Dragons and Wizards of the Coast.
This is par-for-the-course for the company. It's never fully finished or properly balanced anything in the lifetime of any of it's products or predecessors. It has a history of promising new things and then changing action or jumping ship at the last moment. It has a history of selling electronic products that are over-priced and under-developed.
They've also suffered staff and budget cuts within the last year.
What does this mean? Not sure, but it would be one explanation for the lessening of substantial content on the side of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, as well as the lack of updates to the Character builder. It screams 'cutbacks', not setbacks, yet.. the price is supposed to raise?
The calendar for October and beyond is oddly empty. I can't apply my subscription fee to next month or get a 'free month', I can only get a refund for this month. It's September 29th. My subscription has renewed and I feel that it's likely my last month...
It feels like the ship is starting to sink, and while I do not wish to impart panic among the people who read this, I do want to ask Wizards:
What is going on? Give us -something- to allay my fears, and the fears of my peers, or be a responsible company for once and explain, truthfully, if DDI is going under.
I paid for a product I never received.
If you mean the VTT and the CV, no, you nor anyone else has paid for it. They made it very clear what you would be paying for. They made it very clear once they started taking money for subscriptions that the VTT and CB were not actively being worked on, and there was no certainty that they would ever be completed.
And in fact, everyone got a discount on price, and they put in a way to extend that discount for a whole year past the end of that introductory price.
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
They made it very clear what you would be paying for. They made it very clear once they started taking money for subscriptions that the VTT and CB were not actively being worked on, and there was no certainty that they would ever be completed.
In the very early days, there was still a tag on the VTT that said 'Coming Soon', but it did not last long.
They made it very clear what you would be paying for. They made it very clear once they started taking money for subscriptions that the VTT and CB were not actively being worked on, and there was no certainty that they would ever be completed.
In the very early days, there was still a tag on the VTT that said 'Coming Soon', but it did not last long.
This is what I'm talking about. While I understand the changes of business needs, it's one thing to display your 'exciting new tools' as a preview of possibilities, and another to bank on it. When DDI came out, VTT was still in development, but then just.. vanished.
Just like many of the other promised tools. It's my theory (unfounded that I don't work with the company) that they couldn't find a cost-effective model that the player-base would be satisfied. Similar happened to the digital book formats. They weren't making as much money by providing them, and so they were pulled.
Content -is- lacking. There's no word on PHB4 or similar, and it seems that Dungeons and Dragons is gearing towards a new backwards-compatible 'version' of 4e. (I seem to remember the same words being used for 3.5, though.. that it was going to be backwards compatible.. almost). Almost all the new products are going to be for the new 'version'.
In the same breath, there's an interruption of service. While it's not -required- for WotC to update the product, they have developed a reasonable expectation to develop it. Just like they had provided a reasonable expectation that there would be more tools available to players. If all they are going to speak of are things that are definite, the blank calendars are frightening. It means that they're so uncertain of the future, they can't promise anything.
Which leads to my conclusion: the Future of DDI is uncertain. With WotC and TSR's history (and not just with Dungeons and Dragons products. Anyone remember Hecatomb or Dreamblade?) This means that it's possible it could be dropped, suddenly and without warning, or worse. While this could be considered fear-mongering, there isn't a lack of basis for this. The company is in it to make a profit, naturally, but how much does it care about customer service and feedback?
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
They did not say that excatly. But they did give the impression that all the orginal promised tools would be developed and put out. IIRC then they came out with a survey and the majorty said that they wanted tools to manage campigns before a VTT.
Then WOTC said they would develop campign tools, after all those tools were done, they would look back into the VTT. But WOTC was very unclear on how many campaign tools there would be, leaving them alot of breathing room. But they did give the impression that new tools would be worked on and your DDi sub would help keep the project moving.
IMO if WOTC just said that the CV and VTT were dead instead of making people feel that they would be worked on, then people would not be as upset.
They made it very clear what you would be paying for. They made it very clear once they started taking money for subscriptions that the VTT and CB were not actively being worked on, and there was no certainty that they would ever be completed.
In the very early days, there was still a tag on the VTT that said 'Coming Soon', but it did not last long.
There was, but that was before they started taking money. At first they gave DDI for a few months free, because all it had was the magazines, the compendium, and the beta levels 1-3 CB. When they came out with the full version and started taking money, they took the Coming Soon down, and redesigned the whole DDi section to reflect only what it included, and then mudbunny made an exstensive post about DDi and stickied it in the forums.
You can nitpick all you want about what was said, when it was said, what was a 'promise', what was heresay, etc... But these are the way I see things:
When WotC first started accepting money, most customers had a reasonable expectation that they'd have the character builder, compendium, virtual table top and character visualizer available to them within the first year of their subscription. Things that influenced that belief were the demos at conventions, the advertisements in books, and the statements of WotC on message boards and in articles.
Most first year subscribers would agree that WotC provided less services/products in the first year than they expected to receive when they signed up.
Many annual subscribers re-subscribed for a second year before the rate hike, but after the monster builder beta began in late July 2009 (14 months of Beta completed...). For those customers, we have not seen a new product added to the Insider suite since we re-upped over a year ago and we have never paid the current cost for an annual subscription to Insider.
Most Insider readers that play D&D would agree that the percentage of articles in Dragon that is directly relevant to each of their characters is drastically lower than in 2008. (This is due to the stable number of articles per month, but the massive increase in the number of classes, races, destinies, paragon paths, etc...) in the game).
Most Insiders would agree that there is less ‘crunch’ or ‘mechanics’ in each article over the past 6 months than in the first 18 months of Insider.
People continue subscriptions when they feel like they are getting enough benefit to justify the cost. It seems pretty clear from the above that people are getting less than originally expected and less than they are used to getting. However, we’re being asked to pay more.
That is a hard pill to swallow. Perhaps you’re in the group that thinks that the ‘lesser’ amount you’re getting is still worth more than the money that a subscription costs. Many people, however, will find that the higher rates and lower benefits have made Insider a bad investment.
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
You know, it doesn't say that anymore. That bothers me to no end. When I subscribed to DDI the DDI home page specifically advertised for us to invest in the tools. All DDI says now is that we are buying the Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dungeon and Dragon. This bothers me because they basically do not have to add anything new if they choose not to. There is nothing on the web site that says they are developing anything else for DDI. So yeah my autorenew is off.
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
You know, it doesn't say that anymore. That bothers me to no end. When I subscribed to DDI the DDI home page specifically advertised for us to invest in the tools. All DDI says now is that we are buying the Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dungeon and Dragon. This bothers me because they basically do not have to add anything new if they choose not to. There is nothing on the web site that says they are developing anything else for DDI. So yeah my autorenew is off.
I'm sorry, it never asked anyone to invest in the tools. They made it very clear what was going on with DDi and the tools before they started taking anyone's money.
I'm sorry, it never asked anyone to invest in the tools. They made it very clear what was going on with DDi and the tools before they started taking anyone's money.
Ahhh, I recall I subscribed before the announcement of the VTT fail. And said subscription was for said VTT and other tools, articles, etc....
I'm sorry, it never asked anyone to invest in the tools. They made it very clear what was going on with DDi and the tools before they started taking anyone's money.
Ahhh, I recall I subscribed before the announcement of the VTT fail. And said subscription was for said VTT and other tools, articles, etc....
Here are the two subscription pages that existed before the one that is up now.
They don't say that you get the VTT in your subscription.
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
You know, it doesn't say that anymore. That bothers me to no end. When I subscribed to DDI the DDI home page specifically advertised for us to invest in the tools. All DDI says now is that we are buying the Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dungeon and Dragon. This bothers me because they basically do not have to add anything new if they choose not to. There is nothing on the web site that says they are developing anything else for DDI. So yeah my autorenew is off.
I'm sorry, it never asked anyone to invest in the tools. They made it very clear what was going on with DDi and the tools before they started taking anyone's money.
They did.. and didn't. They claimed to be working on things that are no longer being worked for. In context, they advertised products that never came to light. Investments always come with the possibility of failure. While users did not invest in VTT, they were told of it, explained that they were working on it, and even submitted videos of what looked to be an almost finished product.
And then they suddenly said "Well, we're shelving it" and moved to remove any mention of the product at all. While this is good. It's also bad in that they never really gave a reason for shelving it, other than 'working on other things'. Well, the only other things are the other tools (which we haven't seen new ones in over a year, and some of which are still in "beta") and the magazines (which have had a steady decline in content overall, especially in page size).
-Now- the calendar is empty. WotC is stating, even though there's a blurb at the bottom of the page that the calendar is tentative, that they have -no- set plans for October and beyond regarding Dungeon and Dragon magazine. No articles planned, no ideas set, nothing. They could be hiding it from the users, us, but to me it screams the same thing VTT screamed when they removed it: it's possible it's going away for good.
So why am I giving this company money after this last month? I'll leave it up to Wizard's to decide. They're shifty now, in my eyes, after gaining my trust. They've gone back to the old ways of late TSR and Magic: the Gathering and I don't like it at all. They're going to have to work twice as hard to regain any level of trust with me.
They did.. and didn't. They claimed to be working on things that are no longer being worked for. In context, they advertised products that never came to light. Investments always come with the possibility of failure. While users did not invest in VTT, they were told of it, explained that they were working on it, and even submitted videos of what looked to be an almost finished product.And then they suddenly said "Well, we're shelving it" and moved to remove any mention of the product at all. While this is good. It's also bad in that they never really gave a reason for shelving it, other than 'working on other things'. Well, the only other things are the other tools (which we haven't seen new ones in over a year, and some of which are still in "beta") and the magazines (which have had a steady decline in content overall, especially in page size).
Dang you Khoraz you stole my retort. So I now can only say..... What he said...
Can anyone actually point me to this thread where wizards tells everyone "buy DDI subscriptions, it will pay for new tools!"?
You know, it doesn't say that anymore. That bothers me to no end. When I subscribed to DDI the DDI home page specifically advertised for us to invest in the tools. All DDI says now is that we are buying the Character Builder, Adventure Tools, Compendium, Dungeon and Dragon. This bothers me because they basically do not have to add anything new if they choose not to. There is nothing on the web site that says they are developing anything else for DDI. So yeah my autorenew is off.
I'm sorry, it never asked anyone to invest in the tools. They made it very clear what was going on with DDi and the tools before they started taking anyone's money.
They did.. and didn't. They claimed to be working on things that are no longer being worked for. In context, they advertised products that never came to light. Investments always come with the possibility of failure. While users did not invest in VTT, they were told of it, explained that they were working on it, and even submitted videos of what looked to be an almost finished product.
And then they suddenly said "Well, we're shelving it" and moved to remove any mention of the product at all. While this is good. It's also bad in that they never really gave a reason for shelving it, other than 'working on other things'. Well, the only other things are the other tools (which we haven't seen new ones in over a year, and some of which are still in "beta") and the magazines (which have had a steady decline in content overall, especially in page size).
-Now- the calendar is empty. WotC is stating, even though there's a blurb at the bottom of the page that the calendar is tentative, that they have -no- set plans for October and beyond regarding Dungeon and Dragon magazine. No articles planned, no ideas set, nothing. They could be hiding it from the users, us, but to me it screams the same thing VTT screamed when they removed it: it's possible it's going away for good.
So why am I giving this company money after this last month? I'll leave it up to Wizard's to decide. They're shifty now, in my eyes, after gaining my trust. They've gone back to the old ways of late TSR and Magic: the Gathering and I don't like it at all. They're going to have to work twice as hard to regain any level of trust with me.
All I can say is your version of events aren't correct, and are colored by your anger. It would be nice if your anger was supported by the real facts. Then I could agree with you.
All I can say is your version of events aren't correct, and are colored by your anger. It would be nice if your anger was supported by the real facts. Then I could agree with you.
If you look back on the forums here, you can see where they advertised the VTT for a full month on the main page, as well as provided detailed information on other pages. This was -after- they started accepting payments for DDI. The 'almost finished product' was shown publicly at conventions, and at least one video of how it works can be seen on youtube. Considering that at least three other companies have managed to create similar products, it's surprising that Wizard's can't get the programming right, -if- that's the reason.
But I digress. The other information is accurate as seen by the website and 'colored by my anger' merely implies that I'm angry, not incorrect. I am allowed to have an opinion, even if it doesn't mesh with yours. Without any information to the contrary, nor official statement to claim otherwise, I can make any presumptions based off of previous fact, including the fact that Wizards tends to make choices for brazen financial gain, even at the cost of alienating the customers.
And yes, companies are there to make money, but customer retention is vital to business as well.. if you treat your customers poorly, you -will- lose money in the long run.
They were a bit evasive about when and what was coming out, but the implication was clear. Subscribe now, get additional tools at reduced subscription price as they become available.
When they came out with the full version and started taking money, they took the Coming Soon down, and redesigned the whole DDi section to reflect only what it included, and then mudbunny made an exstensive post about DDi and stickied it in the forums.
This is not the way I recall the sequence of events. As I remember it, "Coming Soon" was displayed for the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and VTT several weeks (if not longer) after WotC began accepting payments.
When they came out with the full version and started taking money, they took the Coming Soon down, and redesigned the whole DDi section to reflect only what it included, and then mudbunny made an exstensive post about DDi and stickied it in the forums.
This is not the way I recall the sequence of events. As I remember it, "Coming Soon" was displayed for the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and VTT several weeks (if not longer) after WotC began accepting payments.
That is correct. There were threads about what you got and what you didn't get and alot of confusion during that time.
Here is the demo they did at GenCon in 2007, they say "this will be part of the DDI" it did not confusing at all to me.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw&feat...
Having beta tested MTGO 3.0, I can safely say that I'm fully aware that WotC's entire software development divsion is two guys and a cat sitting in a boat balanced on a revolving portal to the underworld- which is to say they don't have enough resources, enough time, or enough respect for the job they do. It's a thankless job, and it's especially hard on the cat because he doesn't have opposable thumbs.
But keep in mind that, as a subsidiary of Hasbro, this really isn't WotC's fault. Hasbro sets and enforces strict limits on the resources and manpower that goes into a given area- and unfortunately, Hasbro doesn't seem to put much value on software development- anyone whose played any of those inane games they included as part of a cereal promotion some five years ago could tell you that. There's also the matter of what sort of procedural messup permited them to hire a cat, or why they reopened the portal to hell after a MTGO 3.0 beta tester closed it the first time.
These delays are unfortunately, and as a DDI member, I sometimes rant and rage about them, but honestly there really isn't much I, or WotC can do. Contrary to the law of internet trolling, the WotC software division, all three of them (four, if you count the boat), are working their arses off. It's in their best interests to get this out as fast as possible, and giant threads complaining about how they aren't getting it out as fast as possible are pretty useless, because they don't accomplish anything but to draw the involved posters into a comisseration spiral over how WotC is the antichrist, and has a cat as the project lead on Software Dev.
What you need to do, if you have an issue, is email Customer Service. Those emails get read, and WotC becomes aware you have an issue. You can discuss renumeration with them at your leisure.
Making a thread like this is, really, just ego stroking.
On one hand, Wizards of the Coast has pretty much only Ubisoft as a competitor in the "not delivering" department. If there were ever a company I am tempted to flip the finger at and cancel my subscription, it's them. You made promises, you didn't deliver; then you made us pay for content that you didn't deliver. Your magazines, which the price is going to go up on soon for us renewers who used the discount, have increasingly less content with more flaws. Why would I _EVER_ want to renew this subscription?
On the other hand... I know how the world works. If we all stop paying for D&DI, Hasbro cuts the cord. Programmers get fired or reassigned, and suddenly Dungeons and Dragons is a pen and paper game. I kind of want to keep my money going towards them simply so that they'll give me the future content maybe one day.
And that's what you've left me with, Wizards. Treat you as you deserve to be treated for your lack of quality and quantity and your empty promises... or treat you like a charity, donating my money in the desperate hope that one day you'll climb out of your refrigerator box, set aside the wine bottle and start doing decent work.
I don't know. I don't have a lot of money to give to you guys as charity.
So get off your **** and stop being a charity case and start being a COMPANY again.
I kind of want to keep my money going towards them simply so that they'll give me the future content maybe one day.
That pretty much sums up my attitude about DDI. I believe in the potentiality of the process to become a very nice actuality. I just haven't seen a lot of movement toward that with "austerity measures" that seem to be taking hold across the board in DDI. Just in this thread to agree with this statement.
I kind of want to keep my money going towards them simply so that they'll give me the future content maybe one day.
Same...except then they take that money and made Essentials, in all its 3e contrived class design, lack of variety or choice, poor mechanic'd glory.
I'm truly torn between renewing and not.
On one hand, Wizards of the Coast has pretty much only Ubisoft as a competitor in the "not delivering" department. If there were ever a company I am tempted to flip the finger at and cancel my subscription, it's them. You made promises, you didn't deliver; then you made us pay for content that you didn't deliver. Your magazines, which the price is going to go up on soon for us renewers who used the discount, have increasingly less content with more flaws. Why would I _EVER_ want to renew this subscription?
On the other hand... I know how the world works. If we all stop paying for D&DI, Hasbro cuts the cord. Programmers get fired or reassigned, and suddenly Dungeons and Dragons is a pen and paper game. I kind of want to keep my money going towards them simply so that they'll give me the future content maybe one day.
And that's what you've left me with, Wizards. Treat you as you deserve to be treated for your lack of quality and quantity and your empty promises... or treat you like a charity, donating my money in the desperate hope that one day you'll climb out of your refrigerator box, set aside the wine bottle and start doing decent work.
I don't know. I don't have a lot of money to give to you guys as charity.
So get off your **** and stop being a charity case and start being a COMPANY again.
Brilliant post. Could not have put it better myself.
When they came out with the full version and started taking money, they took the Coming Soon down, and redesigned the whole DDi section to reflect only what it included, and then mudbunny made an exstensive post about DDi and stickied it in the forums.
This is not the way I recall the sequence of events. As I remember it, "Coming Soon" was displayed for the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and VTT several weeks (if not longer) after WotC began accepting payments.
Can you show evidence of that?
Just for the record, and before someone goes delving deep into the forums and images to see if someone has a screenshot of just this. The absence of evidence does -not- mean it didn't happen. A fairly sizable number of people remember the events, and while human memory -can- be wrong, it isn't always. I know a number of people who live life on 'evidence only' grounds and it becomes frustrating talking to them about normal events that occur.
DnD Insider went pay on 10-16-2008.. first mention in Magazines regarding pay service: Ampersand article on 11-3-2008, Dragon #369
Site redesign, removing elements of VTT is a bit trickier, as after it happened the forums exploded and WotC did some scrubbing. The earliest date I can see mention of this removal is Apr 2009, when they sued those six for distributing DnD material. I spent several hours looking for this information. It's unsurprisingly missing from the website.
What I could find is that VTT was still being developed well into the pay structure of DDI. It had yet to be shelved, meaning that at least 1 day passed where the advert was available.. not to mention.. the videos and book advertisements.
For a couple of montyhs, they did have "upcoming feature" on them for the wensite, and then people complained that it was "misleading" (despite it being clearly spelled out on the purchase page) and so WotC removed them. (Which, of course, leads to complaints that WotC is trying to get people to ferget about them.)
WotC is trying to get people to ferget about them.)
I think WotC started the "fugetaboutit" when they announced they were suspending further work on the VTT. That was what almost a year ago?
WotC is trying to get people to ferget about them.)I think WotC started the "fugetaboutit" when they announced they were suspending further work on the VTT. That was what almost a year ago?
Over a year ago.
I log in and try to check my account activity and I get this...
The checkout process is not currently available. Please try again later
They have all but guaranteed I am cancelling my renewal.
It's a shame, this whole thing had potential and their inability to give even a bit of information to us only serves to make this whole process more frustrating.
I just wanted to check on the status of my account. The lack of information regarding the character builder updates has me erring on the side of WotC not particularly caring about the end-user.
I log in and try to check my account activity and I get this...
The checkout process is not currently available. Please try again later
They have all but guaranteed I am cancelling my renewal.
It's a shame, this whole thing had potential and their inability to give even a bit of information to us only serves to make this whole process more frustrating.
We've escalated this and are working on a solution. I'm so sorry for the error
I just wanted to check on the status of my account. The lack of information regarding the character builder updates has me erring on the side of WotC not particularly caring about the end-user.
I log in and try to check my account activity and I get this...
The checkout process is not currently available. Please try again later
They have all but guaranteed I am cancelling my renewal.
It's a shame, this whole thing had potential and their inability to give even a bit of information to us only serves to make this whole process more frustrating.
It looks like this issue has been resolved. I was able to log in normally, without the error I saw yesterday. If you are still having an issue, please let me know.