I re-sized the HP box because it was unnecessarily large and I removed the text from Action Points and Second Wind. I moved Surges, Death Saves and all that below the HP boxes. All combat-relevant numbers are now in the middle column.
The Ability Score section was missing a title, so I added one, though it's a bit sloppy. I also added a line to the top for Alignment.
There's a lot of white space now, but that could be used to add, say, more Basic Attack boxes. Or background information, maybe.
And is it really necessary to have the ability scores written out in the Scores and Skills sections? That space could be used to show the math for those numbers. It's especially redundant in the Scores area where it says, for example, INT and Intelligence. I know that's how it was on the old sheet, but I thought it was unnecessary there, too.
I have yet to figure out why the level number box is next to the players name instead of over next to the character's class. That makes no sense either.
Note: I don't think this is perfect, either. I just think it's better and makes more sense than the previewed one. I'd like to be able to customize the sheet like we can in the current CB.
Just my 2¢.
Awwww. I don't want a character sheet with a single red X.
Should be back, now.
Of course now I look more carefully, I realise I would like the 3rd and 1st columns switched.
Of course now I look more carefully, I realise I would like the 3rd and 1st columns switched.
I like that idea.
EDIT: Blank version achieved. Here it is: twitpic.com/36ciqi
A great example of why the API for the character sheets needs to be opened up so that fans can create the sheet they want, and then share those sheets via the wCB.
Also, this.
Preferably in such a way that even someone with skills that don't exceed MS Paint (like, y'know, me) could use it.
EDIT: Blank version achieved. Here it is: twitpic.com/36ciqi
Here's page 2 and page 3.
Nice work.
I noticed that there's nowhere for including powers... does somebody with better photoshop skills than me want to try to add that to pg 2 or some such thing?
That'd definitely be more skill than I have!
EDIT: If you guys were interested in the PDF, here it is.
EDIT 2: And here's a fillable version, if you're interested. Bedtime for me now.
UPDATE: Version 2 of the non-fillable PDF can be found here.
Changes: Moved languages to 3rd page, added more attack spots to the first page. Fixed file size/page size issue.
UPDATE: Version 2.1 can be found here. Added a Holy Symbol slot, and rearranged the left column of the 3rd page a little.
Major revisions: here.
UPDATE:
Version 3.1, which might manage to be the final version is here.
I just hope someone from WotC takes notice.
should be absolutly no problem to costamice your own layout.
EDIT: Lines have been added to the 2nd page of the non-fillable form. My poor photoshop skills mean I did it by hand so they're not perfectly evenly spaced, but they look pretty close to me. For some reason it made the file size significantly larger, but still pretty manageable. Also added AEDU sections to the Powers field.
Huh Wizzy ? Yo Trevor ? Saw that Sheet ?
Glad you like it. Any ideas for the bottom-right corner on the first page? It seems like a lot of blank space for current conditions and effects.
Gender ?
I'm not sure what the best item to move to its place would be, though. I really like the grouping in the right column, so I don't want to break it up.
What about putting the basic attacks in the bottom right corner, and moving something that is less likely to need extra room to its place? One of the big complaints about the new sheet is that there is no room for extra basic attacks.
I'm not sure what the best item to move to its place would be, though. I really like the grouping in the right column, so I don't want to break it up.
Eyeballing it, I could possibly include attack workspace for 1 or 2 more attacks there. Or I could add an attack workspace where the languages known are now and move languages to the bottom or the right column. Or (and this is my personal favorite choice) I could put some attack workspace in both the bottom right and where the "languages" spot is and move languages to the 3rd page (above "other notes"). Thoughts on this? I won't be able to work on it until I get home from school later this afternoon.
You guys have done some awesome work here. I'm going to flag this for review and see if any of these easy fixes are something that can be added.
Hey, thank you!
Eyeballing it, I could possibly include attack workspace for 1 or 2 more attacks there. Or I could add an attack workspace where the languages known are now and move languages to the bottom or the right column. Or (and this is my personal favorite choice) I could put some attack workspace in both the bottom right and where the "languages" spot is and move languages to the 3rd page (above "other notes"). Thoughts on this? I won't be able to work on it until I get home from school later this afternoon.
I disagree with having attack/damage info in the rightmost column, unless the page is also divided horizontally. Ideally, they would all be in one column with much smaller boxes. But there is a lot of empty space and that's probably the best use of it that I can think of.
I always move languages to the second page in the old CB, along with background and other character info. Maybe move languages to page 3 on the new sheet?
I disagree with having attack/damage info in the rightmost column, unless the page is also divided horizontally. Ideally, they would all be in one column with much smaller boxes. But there is a lot of empty space and that's probably the best use of it that I can think of.
I always move languages to the second page in the old CB, along with background and other character info. Maybe move languages to page 3 on the new sheet?
Yeah, I think they end up working in the right column because they're right next to the basic attack space in the middle column. If there's something else anyone would rather see in that space I'll see what I can do. I'm hesitant to shrink the attack space any because if you're writing things in by hand, smaller becomes problematic eventually.
Yeah, I think they end up working in the right column because they're right next to the basic attack space in the middle column. If there's something else anyone would rather see in that space I'll see what I can do. I'm hesitant to shrink the attack space any because if you're writing things in by hand, smaller becomes problematic eventually.
I'd put Languages up with Personality Traits and Background, instead of below Campaign Notes. Otherwise, good work!
And the way you set up the Attacks area is basically how I saw it working. I like that you left one Melee (STR) and one Ranged (DEX) and left the others open.
It wouldn't hurt, imo, to make all of the boxes a bit smaller on the new sheet. They were smaller on the old sheet and that never caused any problem. But I don't know if the amount of space that would be gained from it would be worth the effort.
Wizards should hire us to consult. ;)
There are questionable placements too, though. What if my character's tattoo is not on his left shin? And why is a ki focus worn on my character's toes? What if my character is left handed?
So much unnecessarily wasted space.
Can I just say I really don't see the need for that paper doll? Like someone else said elsewhere on this forum, I know where my character's feet are.
There are questionable placements too, though. What if my character's tattoo is not on his left shin? And why is a ki focus worn on my character's toes? What if my character is left handed?
So much unnecessarily wasted space.
If your character is left handed, then it's just a picture from behind
. Still, if there's a lot of demand I'll see if I can figure out a way to make the switch look good (get rid of the gray background when it's behind the text and such)....and left more of the rest of the sheet visible around it to actually show the inch or so of extra space freed up without the dollsilohuette. >_>
You guys have done some awesome work here. I'm going to flag this for review and see if any of these easy fixes are something that can be added. Obviously, there are no guarantees that this will happen, and even if it does, it will absolutely not happen at launch. Still, I think you guys showing the layouts you want and what improvements you want so clearly is a huge benefit. Thank you.
It's good to know that somebody might take a look at this. I'm rather not a fan of the CB version of this sheet and would still consider it a toss-up between my version of the sheet and the official 4e sheet. Personally though, I hope they get some of the other issues ironed out and add the official sheet before they start playing around with rearranging this one.
If you want to, you can clean up the page however you want (my current working version of page 3 can be found here) and it would take me about 30 seconds to combine it back into a pdf character sheet.
I'll do this and post it here tomorrow morning!
I added "weapon" to make the difference between "hand", "off hand", and "main hand" clearer.
Bam!
Revision notes: There are THREE HAND SLOTS on the original page 3! There's a Main Hand, Off Hand and Hand slot. I got tired of reading "slot" so there are two versions: one with and one without that word. I replaced the generic Hand Slot with Grand Master Training.
The third hand slot is for things like gloves and such. While main hand/off hand are for holding weapons/items.
EDIT: But here's the link for a pdf with your 3rd page.
The third hand slot is for things like gloves and such. While main hand/off hand are for holding weapons/items.
...*facepalm*
Fix coming shortly.
The third hand slot is for things like gloves and such. While main hand/off hand are for holding weapons/items.
...*facepalm*
Fix coming shortly.
Easy mistake to make. On the plus side, your version certainly has room for the hand slot and grandmaster training. I don't think I could squeeze grandmaster training into the paper-doll version without having it look even more overcrowded.
Easy mistake to make. On the plus side, your version certainly has room for the hand slot and grandmaster training. I don't think I could squeeze grandmaster training into the paper-doll version without having it look even more overcrowded.
True! I fixed the error and uploaded the re-revised versions into the original post.
EDIT: Never mind, I found something my computer did funny that is the cause for quality reduction. Link now points to the fixed version.
I think we lost some quality during the back-and-forth, but I haven't actually printed it to see how it looks on paper instead of on my screen so it may not be an issue.
Yeah, I noticed some artifacts in the image. I tried to clean it up a bit, but it's bound to happen. If I was better with Photoshop, I'd fix it, but alas, MS Paint for me.
I think we lost some quality during the back-and-forth, but I haven't actually printed it to see how it looks on paper instead of on my screen so it may not be an issue.
Yeah, I noticed some artifacts in the image. I tried to clean it up a bit, but it's bound to happen. If I was better with Photoshop, I'd fix it, but alas, MS Paint for me.
Also, I accidentally saved reduced the image size to 8.5x11 without changing the dpi, fixed now.
Even with your improved version its a far cry from a character sheet in my opinion. It shows no hard data at all nor any calculations.
I think we should send the damn character sheet designer at wizards back to kindergarten and make sure they hire someone with some skills that can create something that is above what a 12 year old could design.
Even with your improved version its a far cry from a character sheet in my opinion. It shows no hard data at all nor any calculations.
Oh I agree. I almost have it to the point where I would consider it a good choice for hand-building characters because of the extra space to write out what feats do and such, but I'd still prefer the original for the CB because it isn't limited by my hand writing.
I started this thread to disect and analyze the things that I think could have been done better as far as graphic layout is concerned and to show how I think they could have been done better, rather than just complaining about it.
Just want to note that while I like some aspects of this new version (white space CAN be a good thing), it's still a far cry from perfect. I don't like how it feels like hand-holding either. Ideally, I'd like to see a mix of the best traits of the old and the new blended together.
I started this thread to disect and analyze the things that I think could have been done better as far as graphic layout is concerned and to show how I think they could have been done better, rather than just complaining about it.
It wouldn't be hard for me to start splicing things back and forth between the pages, but it would be difficult to make the art styles not clash horribly. That will probably have to wait until after Thanksgiving due to upcoming exams for me.
It wouldn't be hard for me to start splicing things back and forth between the pages, but it would be difficult to make the art styles not clash horribly. That will probably have to wait until after Thanksgiving due to upcoming exams for me.
By no means was I suggesting that you be the one to make that hybrid sheet idea work! I think Wizards should have done that in the first place, and still think they should be the ones to do so.
If you want to take up that project, though, more power to you!
EDIT: On that note, specifically which parts of the Official sheet would people like combined with this one? Or vice versa.
It actually took more time to get it uploaded than it took to make it...
Is that the kind of incorporation people were wanting?
Is that the kind of incorporation people were wanting?
Yessir!
I love going to a school that gives me photoshop for free. Especially considering photoshop has nothing to do with my studies. I can get the colors to match at least, actually matching style beyond that probably requires art skills.
Anything else I should mess with on this page?
Anything else I should mess with on this page?
This looks excellent! Three things I can think of to tweak off the top of my head. The Ability Scores section, Initiative, and I honestly kind of like the shield for AC on the new sheet. It's kind of a throw back. A little nostalgic. If you can fit that on instead of a circle, that would be awesome.
There needs to be a place to put all of the situational bonuses in one place: from feats (like Distant Advantage, Impending Victory, Arcane Malice, etcetera), powers (like Elf, Deva, Human, and Half-Elf racial powers, class powers like Good Timing, etcetera), magic items (like Gauntlets of Blood, Auspicious Dice, Circlet of Mentel Onslaught, Brightleaf consumables, etcetera), etcetera.
Ability Section
The ability score is less significant. The abilty bonus is the number that actually matters. So, for example, for Strength 18/+4, the +4 bonus should go in the bolded box, while the 18 score goes in the side box merely for the sake of calculating the bonus.
Combat Section
There needs to be a place to put all of the situational bonuses in one place: from feats (like Distant Advantage, Impending Victory, Arcane Malice, etcetera), powers (like Elf, Deva, Human, and Half-Elf racial powers, class powers like Good Timing, etcetera), magic items (like Gauntlets of Blood, Auspicious Dice, Circlet of Mentel Onslaught, Brightleaf consumables, etcetera), etcetera.
Racial and class powers show up in the power cards. General magic items show up in the equipment list under the slot boxes.
I'm fairly certain that's accurate, but I can't check because the character builder just lags and crashes on me right now whenever I try to load a character or start a new one.
Ability Section
The ability score is less significant. The abilty bonus is the number that actually matters. So, for example, for Strength 18/+4, the +4 bonus should go in the bolded box, while the 18 score goes in the side box merely for the sake of calculating the bonus.
The final box right now has the total modified bonus, which is actually important. At the minimum it should include the score (eg. 18), the score modifier (eg. +4), and the total modifier (eg. +6, score mod plus 1/2 level). Just like the old sheet.
Combat Section
There needs to be a place to put all of the situational bonuses in one place: from feats (like Distant Advantage, Impending Victory, Arcane Malice, etcetera), powers (like Elf, Deva, Human, and Half-Elf racial powers, class powers like Good Timing, etcetera), magic items (like Gauntlets of Blood, Auspicious Dice, Circlet of Mentel Onslaught, Brightleaf consumables, etcetera), etcetera.
Racial and class powers show up in the power cards. General magic items show up in the equipment list under the slot boxes.
I'm fairly certain that's accurate, but I can't check because the character builder just lags and crashes on me right now whenever I try to load a character or start a new one.Ability Section
The ability score is less significant. The abilty bonus is the number that actually matters. So, for example, for Strength 18/+4, the +4 bonus should go in the bolded box, while the 18 score goes in the side box merely for the sake of calculating the bonus.
The final box right now has the total modified bonus, which is actually important. At the minimum it should include the score (eg. 18), the score modifier (eg. +4), and the total modifier (eg. +6, score mod plus 1/2 level). Just like the old sheet.
Combat Section
It becomes increasingly difficult to reference the very many different situational bonuses when they arent together in a list. I almost never have the same attack and damage bonuses two turns in row. I have to recalculate my combat math every single turn. It is quite difficult to keep track of things like Arcane Fury (bonus to attack if your arcane atwill hit last turn) in the mix with all of the other situational bonuses.
Weird situational bonuses are flavorful if you only have one or two, but theyr nightmarish if you have ten or even twenty.
Abilty Section
Those three numbers sound right. The pure bonus is the one that needs a bolded box, for recognition at a glance.
Combat Section
It becomes increasingly difficult to reference the very many different situational bonuses when they arent together in a list.
I agree it would be nice to have a place to track that kind of thing. Also, bonuses from other characters. Maybe some check boxes for common status effects, too?
Might clutter up the sheet, though.
I removed the text from Action Points and Second Wind.
I like having the text for Second Wind because for some reason I'm always forgetting the +2 to defenses. But the text for Action Points, as it appears on the Character Sheet now, is incorrect. It just says you gain a standard action.
Technically the difference is neglectable. If you get a standard action or a move action or a minor action is not really different from getting a standard action which you can convert into a move action or a minor action.
I like having the text for Second Wind because for some reason I'm always forgetting the +2 to defenses. But the text for Action Points, as it appears on the Character Sheet now, is incorrect. It just says you gain a standard action.
More evidence for the need for a customizable sheet!
In regards to the Action Point text, I agree with Ra-Tiel. "Gain an action" vs. "gain a standard action"? Same difference.
Ability Scores: I can switch them to look like the original characters sheets scores, which has the ability score, ability modifier, and ability check.
Combat Section: It currently has the things the original sheet has, but it shouldn't be too difficult for me to add some space for conditional modifiers.
I'll throw my hat in with those who think there should be an API released for character sheets.
Nice work guys!
I removed the text from Action Points and Second Wind.
I like having the text for Second Wind because for some reason I'm always forgetting the +2 to defenses. But the text for Action Points, as it appears on the Character Sheet now, is incorrect. It just says you gain a standard action.
The second wind text might have to stay on the power card (I don't remember seeing one in the new CB, so steal one from the CBC maybe?) due to space constraints. It would come down to keeping the 3rd attack workspace or adding that text, and I'm inclined to keep the attack space personally. That being said, the 2nd wind text can be added pretty easily if that's what people want.
The change opens up a bit of white space in the left column, I'm thinking of using it to put Name/Race/Class (just above the portrait, moving it and ability scores down). Also still planning on trying to get the shield for AC. New PDF will go up after a few more changes.
Full pdf now found here. Also, I'm pretty happy with pages 2 and 3 right now, unless there are any requests.
Maybe, under Saving Throw Mods, have "Conditional Saving Throw Mods" and then "Resistances" instead of "Current Conditions and Effects."
EDIT: Oddly, it puts conditional saving throw modifiers above resistances...
Alright, what do you guys think of this for the front page:
I have to say, I really love how the shield calls AC out apart from the other defenses. Nice work!
The Ability score section looks a little too tight in with the Skills section. Maybe move it up just a bit?
I hadn't really noticed before how the Ability Scores lined up with the appropriate Defenses on the old sheet. I don't see a way to fix that unless you swap Defenses with Stats/Senses, maybe. But I kind of like having AC at the top of the page. Hm.
I have to say, I really love how the shield calls AC out apart from the other defenses. Nice work!
The Ability score section looks a little too tight in with the Skills section. Maybe move it up just a bit?
I hadn't really noticed before how the Ability Scores lined up with the appropriate Defenses on the old sheet. I don't see a way to fix that unless you swap Defenses with Stats/Senses, maybe. But I kind of like having AC at the top of the page. Hm.
I'm planning on cleaning up the little reminders I added to the right of the ability scores eventually... make them look a little nicer. I'll check out the spacing on the abilities/skills, that would be a quick thing to fix.
Heck the image on my screen is so small...
Download the PDF from one of dbmeboy's links.
Often, there are too many bonuses to keep track of. This is a serious issue because it makes casual gameplay difficult. The character sheet must somehow simplify this for newbies, method actors, and guests.
In any case, all of this can fit on a single page (writing small but reasonably). Using shorthand, I can include all of this information AND all the information of every class, race, and item power, on a single Character Builder sheet.
But a way to refer to situational bonuses really needs to be done. And hopefully the Character Builder developers are looking into this issue. They really need our input, because it is a complex but vital issue.
There are often too many bonuses to keep track of. This is a serious issue, because it makes casual gameplay difficult. The character sheet must somehow simplify this for newbies and method actors.
In any case, all of this can fit on a single page (writing small but reasonably). Using shorthand, I can include all of this information AND all the information of every class, race, and item power, on a single Character Builder sheet.
It would be quite useful. If you want to make one and post a .png or such thing I'll include it.
@Haldrik: I can't think of an easy way to fit that much information onto the existing sheet, but if you wanted to make up the page you wanted I can insert it into the compiled sheet.
Sweet.
Il try get something solid together by tomorrow morning. Critiques to improve it are welcome.
I dont have a PDF writer. Is there something else I can use?
Edit: PNG. I can do that, no problem.
I hope WOTC takes note of your design. And now if they can just adjust the power cards to more organized that would be good too.
Sweet.
Il try get something solid together by tomorrow morning. Critiques to improve it are welcome.
I dont have a PDF writer. Is there something else I can use?
Save it as an image of some sort, post it (or a link to it) here, and I can take care of it. I'll be away from my computer for a good chunk of the weekend, but once I'm back it won't take me more than a couple of minutes to incorporate it.
Do you like the background for Fort/Ref/Will, did you prefer it without the background, or should I just not have it there at all?
I'm not convinced about the powers section on the second page though. The racial features, class features and feats may leave a lot of white space on the page at low levels but up at level 30 that page is very full; There is no room for your powers section. With the power cards it seems redundant to me anyway. To each there own I guess.
I really like the first page dbmeboy, I'd love to see that option in the OCB.
I'm not convinced about the powers section on the second page though. The racial features, class features and feats may leave a lot of white space on the page at low levels but up at level 30 that page is very full; There is no room for your powers section. With the power cards it seems redundant to me anyway. To each there own I guess.
The reason I added the powers section was so that the sheet could be used by hand without the character builder. That being said, for any character I could get to work with the CB I would probably only use my sheet for the first page and use pgs 2-3 from the CB.
Haldrik, the compiled PDF using your sheet can be found here.
Sweet.
I also started a new thread here, for people who want to help improve the layout for the Combat Modifiers.
That thread also includes an update.
If you swapped the ability score section with the portrait, you could line up the defences with the relevant scores (as per the original sheet).
just a small suggestion (you've probably all ready thought of it anyway).
If you swapped the ability score section with the portrait, you could line up the defences with the relevant scores (as per the original sheet).
That's true. I kinda like having the portrait at the top personally, but that could just be me.
Does anyone know where I might be able to find a 4e sheet with a PP section?