I'd like to, first off, say that I like what's been done with 4th Edition. I don't think there's really been a single bad product released, with the possible exception of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, but that's personal taste. Maybe a few here and there that simply aren't what I, personally, am interested in, but I'm hardly Wizard's only customer, and they are, first and foremost, a business. Their, your, job is to make money. I understand that, I get that, and I wish you luck, but, on the subject of money, I think you deserve a bit of a warning.
If things continue as they have, I will not be renewing my DDI subscription, and it seems many people are in the same boat. Since Dragon and Dungeon have both moved on to 'More, shorter' articles, I've noticed that not only are their fewer articles that interest me personally (it's been months since I rushed to read a Dragon Article, and haven't really messed with Dungeon since the Player/DM split, and I'm a DM!) but when they do come out, the quality is somewhat... less. Not bad, as I've said, I don't think anything Wizards has done with 4th edition has been bad, but less.
That's not the problem, though. Dragon and Dungeon are 'extra' in my eyes. As much as the entire thing might be one big package, the Character Builder and Adventure Tools are what I really consider my subscription as paying for. It's a good way to bring DnD into the 21st century, and has become invaluable to my games.
Now, if you'd been looking at the forums lately, you likely know where I'm heading here. The delays. I'll give you the MM3 delays. Those I understand completely, you weren't just releasing new content, you were having to revise all previous content up to that point. I'd have liked it if it'd been faster, but he delay was understandable, but, since I consider my subscription as being primarily for CB/AT, a month without an update is a month I got little to nothing from my subscription.
I understand that you wanted the Essentials Content to be available for use ASAP, but that's not how it's played out, and people waiting for Dark Sun and other updates have had to wait a month for a product that isn't even aimed at current players, being styled, by Mearls' own admission, to bring back players 4e's abrupt departure from the status quo of DnD chased off, and, by marketing's admission, to bring in new players. Now, I could go on for pages talking about why I won't be picking up anything Essentials-related beyond the Rules Compendium, but, frankly, that's not important. It's not a product for me, it's not the first time a product has not been for me, and likely won't be the last. I have my issues with Essentials, but that's a topic for another time, and, frankly, as long as Essentials is an OPTIONAL alternate ruleset, any complaints I might have really aren't important.
My point is, the next time you want to delay an update in order to incorporate not-yet published material: Don't. Especially when the content is big and extensive, like Essentials seems to be. We're settled into the 'one month delay.' We're used to it, we get it, we plan around it. But seeing a update pushed back, and then canceled altogether leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. Now, I'm not going to say this has been chronic behavior. In general, you've been pretty good, this is just a rather large and noticeable misstep, but he point still stands that, as someone who considers my DDI subscription a CB/AT subscription, it's in my best interest to only pay for months where there's an update, and, taking it farther, it's in my best interest to only pay for months where content I actually intend to use has been updated. Meaning maybe 1-3 months a year of actual subscription.
Am I planning on doing this? Not yet, but if the trend of the last handful of months continues, I'm going to seriously consider it. So far, I've been happy to keep my subscription going as a way of supporting a company whose books I cannot always afford on my meager income, and as a way of keeping all officially published content available to my players, even the content far enough on the fringes that I would never go out and purchase the actual book at retail price. However, at their rate of advancement, and with content becoming more meager over the last few months, I, and, from what I can see, many others find themselves wondering if the cheaper option might be the better one. If DnD as a whole is willing to undergo a large project like Essentials just to bring back a few thousand players, or a few hundred new ones in, I imagine their digital wing might have reason to worry if a few hundred players who have been providing a steady cash stream to Wizard's stores cut off the flow.
This is not a 'how dare you.' This is not a 'I'm taking my business elsewhere, sir.' This certainly isn't an ultimatum of 'do what I want or I stop giving you my money.' I'm not nearly egotistical enough to think that a large international company actually cares about a single player's cash enough to bend to my whims, or that you should, but I fell that I'm not alone in my sentiments, and that, as a company I respect, making products that I have (in general) liked, working in a hobby I enjoy, and has familial connections to me, I think you deserve to be told my greivances in a polite, calm manner, in the hopes that you can plan how to best serve your customers, so that we can serve you.
-Brandon
P.S. When is the next customer survey going to be?
Thanks!!
But my questions to you is this. What about all the people that want exactly that? There are plenty if posters who have said they want the updates to the digital aspect to coinside with the printed book release. They don't want to have to wait a month or more to have the materials they bought to be in the digital tools.
I'm just curious.
Another point I would like to bring up is I don't mind if a CB/AT update is delayed for new content such as Essentials, but you should at least be suppling patches to the growing number of bugs that were introduced in the current release. In AT I have to constantly exit and restart the application because if I open a Offical creature it loses vital information on this creature and the only way to see it is to exit and restart.
For example, I filtered my creatures by name 'sage' and selected the Sage Ghost. I print this creature out and then I select Edit a Copy. The reason I print it is because it loses some of it's data and I need to fix it within my new copy. Plus the original also loses this data until I exit and restart AT.
I also will pull up the creature online within the Compendium and copy information from there since it could be a large portion of text.
But taking the Sage Ghost as an example.
The differences if I select Edit a Copy and don't modify anything;
Original - fly 6 (hover); phasing
Copy - fly 0 (hover); phasing, you can't just edit the number, it won't update. I have to remove it and re-add it
Original - Resist insubstantial
Copy - Resist -10 insubstantial, again you can't just edit the number, it won't update. I have to remove it and re-add it
Original - Burst of Terror Recharge 5,6
Copy - Burst of Terror Recharge, on this I can enter 5 as a recharge value
These are 3 things that occured on one creature, and I didn't do anything.
This was the main reason I was looking towards today's supposedly update since I was hoping these bugs where addressed. And yes I have submitted a bug report for these last month.
I don't disagree with your post or your points. The whole, "My point is, the next time you want to delay an update in order to incorporate not-yet published material: Don't" is a valid concern.
But my questions to you is this. What about all the people that want exactly that? There are plenty if posters who have said they want the updates to the digital aspect to coinside with the printed book release. They don't want to have to wait a month or more to have the materials they bought to be in the digital tools.
I'm just curious.
See, if this became a standard thing, where books were uploaded the same month they were released, and Wizards had proven they could keep up with that, great. Ideally, the day any book goes live, it's up, but when the standard, the infrastructure you've set up is 'next month' which with books coming out towards the end of the month, is only a couple weeks anyway, pushing back a regular update in the hopes of having a single, extensive product going live immediately? Clearly, it hasn't worked. Now, if the DDI team was bigger, and had immediate access to the 'for print' ODFs, or whatever they are, and had the resources to make the update come at the end of every month, and release everything at the end of that month? Great. But a sudden change in update schedule for a single product was overly optimistic. I'm not blaming the DDI team exclusively here, a 'live update' on the release day would require the ENTIRE company to be set up for that sort of thing.
Edit: And, honestly, since DDI subscribers basically get the content 'cheaper,' with the print books not being strictly required, a delay in update is fine. It makes business sense. Wizards wants people to buy the books. If there's a considerably cheaper option available the very same day, they lose money. Now, Paizo's had some success with PDFs, but I don't think even they tend to have the PDFs available for sale the very same day. I'm happy waiting a couple weeks, I know live update's quite the demand. When I end up waiting a couple months though, is where I have to stand up and be noted.
Edit the 2nd: Now, they could still do the live update without losing money, but they'd have to substantially increase the cost of a DDI subscription. We'd likely end up looking at well over a hundred dollars a year, at a discounted 'group' rate. I wonder how many of the people who want immediate CB/AT updates would be willing to pay for Wizards to not only offer the content and put strain on the print division, but to hire the extra people to make those updates.
This is not a 'how dare you.' This is not a 'I'm taking my business elsewhere, sir.' This certainly isn't an ultimatum of 'do what I want or I stop giving you my money.' I'm not nearly egotistical enough to think that a large international company actually cares about a single player's cash enough to bend to my whims, or that you should, but I fell that I'm not alone in my sentiments, and that, as a company I respect, making products that I have (in general) liked, working in a hobby I enjoy, and has familial connections to me, I think you deserve to be told my greivances in a polite, calm manner, in the hopes that you can plan how to best serve your customers, so that we can serve you.
-Brandon
P.S. When is the next customer survey going to be?
To Brandon:
I often re-frame from posting. But I must say your post was intelligent. I agree with most on what you have to say.
However, as a customer I am very upset with WOC. When I pay for service, I expect the retailer provide such service. This month WOC has failed greatly. The contract that I have with WOC is as followings I pay for DDI, I get an update for CB/TA. I know I get Dungeon/Dragon and access to the compendium with my subscription. However Dungeon/Dragon and compendium are not along worth the money I pay each month for DDI. Is WOC going to reburst me this month? Are they going to extend my subcription by month prodably not.
Do not be surprise if the fan base is upset by this one.
I don't disagree with your post or your points. The whole, "My point is, the next time you want to delay an update in order to incorporate not-yet published material: Don't" is a valid concern.
But my questions to you is this. What about all the people that want exactly that? There are plenty if posters who have said they want the updates to the digital aspect to coinside with the printed book release. They don't want to have to wait a month or more to have the materials they bought to be in the digital tools.
I'm just curious.
They could have waited two weeks like the rest of us always have. Now, because they were in such a hurry to try to get the stuff for Essentials in early, those of us who play Dark Sun end up having to wait a month and a half (and that's assuming that they get October's update out on time, I am not holding my breath on that either) and the Essentials players STILL end up having to wait (at least) two weeks.
Let's just say that their attempt to get next month's stuff out this month has not been a smashing success.
Edit: And, honestly, since DDI subscribers basically get the content 'cheaper,' with the print books not being strictly required, a delay in update is fine. It makes business sense. Wizards wants people to buy the books. If there's a considerably cheaper option available the very same day, they lose money. Now, Paizo's had some success with PDFs, but I don't think even they tend to have the PDFs available for sale the very same day. I'm happy waiting a couple weeks, I know live update's quite the demand. When I end up waiting a couple months though, is where I have to stand up and be noted.
As i have to agree in genral with your issues and concearns, this one here misses an important point of view.
Sure, if you stick to DDI subscription to get the content concearning game mechanics by downloading the updates to insider tools, it isnt a big deal to wait for 4+ weeks; but just imagine having bought the book containing this content. So there you are, paying for subscribtion and a book, but still having to wait at least 4 weeks (if you arent lucky it can be 7-8 weeks, and if you are very unlucky you can add another month) to use it with the tools you paid for.
My point is: keeping a tool up to date with released content is highly desireable for a company to please their customers. It costs more money, but that is mainly a question of pricecalculation and resource management.
For those that fear releaseconnected updates whould reduce the purchasenumbers of the actual product, why not add a key code to every book, allowing exclusive access to the updated, which whould be otherwise available to you within ~4 weeks?
To be fair, this is one of my personal issues i have with this matter, for i have found myself quite some times buying a book and getting frustrated waiting for those updates for several weeks, but i hope you can ounderstand, that something beeing "acceptable" depends very much on the point of view you have, depending on the effort/money you spend.
Edit: And, honestly, since DDI subscribers basically get the content 'cheaper,' with the print books not being strictly required, a delay in update is fine. It makes business sense. Wizards wants people to buy the books. If there's a considerably cheaper option available the very same day, they lose money. Now, Paizo's had some success with PDFs, but I don't think even they tend to have the PDFs available for sale the very same day. I'm happy waiting a couple weeks, I know live update's quite the demand. When I end up waiting a couple months though, is where I have to stand up and be noted.
As i have to agree in genral with your issues and concearns, this one here misses an important point of view.
Sure, if you stick to DDI subscription to get the content concearning game mechanics by downloading the updates to insider tools, it isnt a big deal to wait for 4+ weeks; but just imagine having bought the book containing this content. So there you are, paying for subscribtion and a book, but still having to wait at least 4 weeks (if you arent lucky it can be 7-8 weeks, and if you are very unlucky you can add another month) to use it with the tools you paid for.
My point is: keeping a tool up to date with released content is highly desireable for a company to please their customers. It costs more money, but that is mainly a question of pricecalculation and resource management.
For those that fear releaseconnected updates whould reduce the purchasenumbers of the actual product, why not add a key code to every book, allowing exclusive access to the updated, which whould be otherwise available to you within ~4 weeks?
To be fair, this is one of my personal issues i have with this matter, for i have found myself quite some times buying a book and getting frustrated waiting for those updates for several weeks, but i hope you can ounderstand, that something beeing "acceptable" depends very much on the point of view you have, depending on the effort/money you spend.
I certainly understand this standpoint, and the code idea would be a good way of handling it, but there'd still be the issue of having the extra DDI people to program in the code for immediate download, leaving the question of how Wizards is going to pay those people. For the immediate future, I'd like them to at least get to the point where delays don't happen within the current schedule, with the possible exception of big, MM3 style content that requires them to not just add new material, but revise existing material. That said, the point that not all DDI subscribers are just DDI customers is a good one, and something that is important for Wizards to keep in mind in the future.
Now, a nice mid-point would be improved 'entered content' support, allowing a player who has the books handy to enter in the official content that the program would then treat as almost as good as the real thing, until the update hits where it's replaced by the identically named professionally programmed content. I've long been for better homebrew/3rd party support for DDI, and if it was just a little easier to, for example, homebrew in 'thri'kreen' using the Dark Sun books, it'd help out the folks who, in these situations, might feel that not only are they not getting what they paid for with the books, but what they paid for with DDI.
I certainly understand this standpoint, and the code idea would be a good way of handling it, but there'd still be the issue of having the extra DDI people to program in the code for immediate download, leaving the question of how Wizards is going to pay those people. For the immediate future, I'd like them to at least get to the point where delays don't happen within the current schedule, with the possible exception of big, MM3 style content that requires them to not just add new material, but revise existing material. That said, the point that not all DDI subscribers are just DDI customers is a good one, and something that is important for Wizards to keep in mind in the future.
Very reasonable and i agree as most is a fact at the moment.
To make this clear, i totally understand, that the way Wizards is maintaining their online content so far is the best they could handle with what they were given. Unlike some people in the forums i dont think Wizards trys to make their customers angry on purpose.
Keeping the tools up to date is in general possible, that i am sure off. What i, for obvious reasons, cant immagine, are the costs related to this. However, where my imagination fails, Wizards is able to calculate the potentual price to this work.
Which brings be to my main problem: The lack of communication. Unlike other companys, that produce quick changing products, Wizards seeks allmost no connection to their customers in terms of altering their products.
This is an active comunity, why not ask them for example if they whould be willing to pay X$ each month to the an instant update to the tools the pay for? Why not make a poll to find out what content the majority of customers desires?
I for myself could accept many of the recent changes better, if i knew that it was what the majority of customers demanded.
This company has the free support of those buying their products, but sadly it doesnt use this support in any visual way.
Now, a nice mid-point would be improved 'entered content' support, allowing a player who has the books handy to enter in the official content that the program would then treat as almost as good as the real thing, until the update hits where it's replaced by the identically named professionally programmed content. I've long been for better homebrew/3rd party support for DDI, and if it was just a little easier to, for example, homebrew in 'thri'kreen' using the Dark Sun books, it'd help out the folks who, in these situations, might feel that not only are they not getting what they paid for with the books, but what they paid for with DDI.
I sure whould apreciate this, for i like improvising things that arent officially supported yet, however i dont expect this to happen in the near future.
As a matter of fact, the Character Builder as it exists now, has undergone too many changes to be able to allow the user to alter it´s content.
This tool wasnt designed to easily undergo changes and adept new systemmechanics, which is the main reason each update takes so long to get integrated. It isnt just a matter of „drop down menues“, „copy & paste“ and klicking the „save“ button when finished. This whould be possible, but it whould cost time and money.
Wizards payed for a CB, they got one and therefor stick to it to assure their investment wasnt invain. Never the less, this tool is in many ways a prototype and replacing it with a final „clean“ version isnt yet wanted by the people in charge.
There might come a point at which they are forced to do so, maybe if the introduce an other new system like essentials, until then this tool will only get more complex and fragile.
I don't disagree with your post or your points. The whole, "My point is, the next time you want to delay an update in order to incorporate not-yet published material: Don't" is a valid concern.
But my questions to you is this. What about all the people that want exactly that? There are plenty if posters who have said they want the updates to the digital aspect to coinside with the printed book release. They don't want to have to wait a month or more to have the materials they bought to be in the digital tools.
I'm just curious.
See, if this became a standard thing, where books were uploaded the same month they were released, and Wizards had proven they could keep up with that, great. Ideally, the day any book goes live, it's up, but when the standard, the infrastructure you've set up is 'next month' which with books coming out towards the end of the month, is only a couple weeks anyway, pushing back a regular update in the hopes of having a single, extensive product going live immediately? Clearly, it hasn't worked. Now, if the DDI team was bigger, and had immediate access to the 'for print' ODFs, or whatever they are, and had the resources to make the update come at the end of every month, and release everything at the end of that month? Great. But a sudden change in update schedule for a single product was overly optimistic. I'm not blaming the DDI team exclusively here, a 'live update' on the release day would require the ENTIRE company to be set up for that sort of thing.
Edit: And, honestly, since DDI subscribers basically get the content 'cheaper,' with the print books not being strictly required, a delay in update is fine. It makes business sense. Wizards wants people to buy the books. If there's a considerably cheaper option available the very same day, they lose money. Now, Paizo's had some success with PDFs, but I don't think even they tend to have the PDFs available for sale the very same day. I'm happy waiting a couple weeks, I know live update's quite the demand. When I end up waiting a couple months though, is where I have to stand up and be noted.
Edit the 2nd: Now, they could still do the live update without losing money, but they'd have to substantially increase the cost of a DDI subscription. We'd likely end up looking at well over a hundred dollars a year, at a discounted 'group' rate. I wonder how many of the people who want immediate CB/AT updates would be willing to pay for Wizards to not only offer the content and put strain on the print division, but to hire the extra people to make those updates.
I agree that WoTC doesn't want to update with book content the same time the books come out, because it would hurt book sales. I too have said the same as Edit 2. However that won't happen, because customers will get really angry.
I'd like to add my support and my compliments to the OP for delivering a thoughtful (and not hateful) appeal to WotC. I hope you decide to extend everyone's subscriptions by a month as an equitable exchange for delaying expected services for a month.
WotC has not decided to extend subscriptions, but they are giving refunds for the month of Sept. You can get one, if you contact Customer Service.
Please do your part and make sure your email account on your profile is up to date, and active, and look for an email in the near future. Be sure to check spam folders too, just in case.
I tried your link, but am unable to get teh Email Us to work as well as logging in with my account. Any other method of contacting CS for this refund?
I will see what I can do about getting them to contact you.
Please do your part and make sure your email account on your profile is up to date, and active, and look for an email in the near future. Be sure to check spam folders too, just in case.
You might want to try posting in this thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
That will alert an ORC that your account needs a little love to be able to access the Customer Service site.
I tried your link, but am unable to get teh Email Us to work as well as logging in with my account. Any other method of contacting CS for this refund?
If you are having trouble contacting Customer Support, you should post to this thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I originally kept my Insider account going (also was DMing a regular game then - unfortunately many people from that game have left the area). Now I go 2 or 3 months at a time without subscribing and then 3 months with subscribing.
I use the updates to these tools to decide if I want to purchase a book. They act as a preview to me and as such, when I can't look at them in a timely manner, I am far less likely to purchase the books than if the updates occur within 2-3 weeks of the publication. I love Dark Sun from 2E. Everything I've heard about Dark Sun for 4E sounds great but until I can look at some of the mechanics, I won't purchase the books and live in an area where there is no FLGS to go to in order to thumb the books.
I am also disappointed that there have been no new tools added. I REALLY want a map building utility that allows for creating encounter areas with dungeon tiles. The game table of promised yore is not a priority for me. Instead, I want a batch of tools that will essentially allow me to digitally publish my own adventure. I can come close by dropping things into a powerpoint presentation or other digital publishing program but encounter maps would add a lot.
In short I really like the D&D Insider offerings but I don't find them keeping up with my desire such that I will maintain my account constantly. I feel that the Dragon and Dungeon article offerings are not enough of a reason without timeliness on the tools we have and the addition of new tools.
Cheers
(Strength based weapon power? Ok sure, its attack bonus is this. NOT HARD TO DO. It's damage is 1W+str? Sure. With your 18 str, level 2 char, and +1 longsword it's +9 attack and 1d8+5 damage. wooo i did basic math... that the character builder I'm PAYING FOR cannot do)
Why are we paying for this, again? Inconsistent updates when they're promised monthly (for our monthly subscription) = We're paying to get nothing.
*cancels subscription*
I've had my Dark Sun Campaign setting book for over a month, and still no character builder support for it. Theme powers, Wild Talents, new-build-powers are all being scrawled down manually, or players are using third-party character sheets where you can manually input a power and have it ACTAULLY WORK WITH THE SHEET.
(Strength based weapon power? Ok sure, its attack bonus is this. NOT HARD TO DO. It's damage is 1W+str? Sure. With your 18 str, level 2 char, and +1 longsword it's +9 attack and 1d8+5 damage. wooo i did basic math... that the character builder I'm PAYING FOR cannot do)
Why are we paying for this, again? Inconsistent updates when they're promised monthly (for our monthly subscription) = We're paying to get nothing.
*cancels subscription*
Frustration is understandable. But honestly their updates haven't been inconsistent for the majority of time. And when they have had to delay them, they have let us know.
Also your monthly subscription doesn't include an update each and every month, though they are more then happy to refund you a months.
Clearly the monthly updates have happened so regularly, that people have begun to assume they are part of what you are paying for.
Frustration is understandable. But honestly their updates haven't been inconsistent for the majority of time. And when they have had to delay them, they have let us know.
Also your monthly subscription doesn't include an update each and every month, though they are more then happy to refund you a months.
Clearly the monthly updates have happened so regularly, that people have begun to assume they are part of what you are paying for.
Frankly during my subscription there were 3 months delayed outright, not to mention a few other missed deadlines. For a 12 month subscription, that means 25% of it was delayed at least 1 month. Prior to that, there were several other delays. I am not even subscribed for September; that would have pushed me to 33%.
It's not a lot of fun reading a cool Rogue article, then having to wait more than 70 days for it to appear in the CB.
There is a reason that I no longer feel the need to participate in DDi at this time.
It's hard to be an active D&D player without paying for insider because at this point the number of character options is too great to handle by just referring to the books. In this sense, Wizards has created an excellent business tool for themselves, and I doubt most of the irate posters on these forums are going to really cancel their subscriptions unless they plan to stop playing.
However, to those of you who want to send Wizards a message, consider the fact that the rest of their business model is much less stable. I buy Wizards books not because I need to (the majority of the content is available legally through their online tools, and I doubt anyone who was really looking would have trouble finding full copies of a less than legal nature) but because I want them to keep developing the game. However, when poor planning on their part results in inconvenience for me, my desire to purchase said books decreases significantly. Although I'm a big fan of the Dark Sun setting, I plan not to buy a copy of it or psionic power. Initially, I was waiting on the update (because it annoys me to read a bunch of cool stuff that's a giant pain to use with the tools I'm paying for), but they've delayed it long enough that I think I'll just skip those books and check out the content when its finally loaded into the tools.
If others took the same aproach, Wizards might consider investing in better project management or development for their tools.
It is a complete waste of money to do otherwise since they are obviously not putting subscription funds back into DDI.
I also am buying fewer books as the Essentials line is not what I am looking for in D&D per se.
At this time, I understand the risks: by sending a message with my dollars (or lack thereof to WotC), I risk letting the hobby I love wither and die.
Now, I'm not nearly egocentric enough to believe that my reduced purchasing would even register to them, but it's really all I can do at this point. Posting here seems to do little even though our VCLs communicate to the WotC staff, and my emails to CS have done little than generate canned responses....
I'm frustrated - I want D&D to be a game that I'm happily playing until I'm old and grey.. but I need to proper tools to back it up in this day and age.
I'm frustrated - I want D&D to be a game that I'm happily playing until I'm old and grey.. but I need to proper tools to back it up in this day and age.
I couldnt agree more. It really is strange that they are so far behind the tech curve. It should be a HUGE priority to bring the game and its official tools online with current technology, but, instead we have a company who doesnt "get it" slapping C&D orders on some of the most useful tools the community has developed. These two things, the lack of ability or interest in developing tools worthy of 4E and the year 2010 and their tactic of smothering very useful community develoed tools, will do far more harm to the long term health of their IP then any other single issue in my opinion. I dont really think they believe they can sabotoge their own product, but thats what they are doing.
An alternate explanation, and the one I subscribe to, is that this all points to a really, really bad marketing team that is trying to grab new players with terrible methods, like promising software that doesn't exist and "no really this is like old times" _starter_ sets that they then instruct their team that they have to try and push on existing players as well. Oh, and no new product for 6 months so they'll have nothing else to buy.
/wild speculation
I'm frustrated - I want D&D to be a game that I'm happily playing until I'm old and grey.. but I need to proper tools to back it up in this day and age.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I couldnt agree more. It really is strange that they are so far behind the tech curve. It should be a HUGE priority to bring the game and its official tools online with current technology, but, instead we have a company who doesnt "get it" slapping C&D orders on some of the most useful tools the community has developed. These two things, the lack of ability or interest in developing tools worthy of 4E and the year 2010 and their tactic of smothering very useful community develoed tools, will do far more harm to the long term health of their IP then any other single issue in my opinion. I dont really think they believe they can sabotoge their own product, but thats what they are doing.
How are they behind the tech curve? What other RPG gaming company has these kinds of tools? Certainly there are programs that people can use such as Masterplan, which is free. And Fantasy Grounds, which is not. Both are good, both do their jobs. Fantasy Ground is very good, has lots of bells and whistels, but it's not even close to what WoTC's was trying and failed to do.
As for slapping C&D orders, it's WoTC's property. Why should they let others give it away for free? I don't get how people complain about the quality of what they pay for but also want to undermine the companies ability to make money to improve the product they slag by allowing it to get out into the world for free.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
EDIT: Oh and BTW, I'm fairly certain the entire company including the programmer (yes, that's one programmer) is less than 10 people.
But there isn't any other gaming system out there that has tools like the Character Builder and the Monster Builder. You know, other than Hero Designer and GURPS character generator (which I think was just one guy, but I'm not sure). Where the folks at WOTC decided that they needed two programs for characters and monsters, you can do it in one with the Hero designer. So i guess he's right, there aren't any other tools like this.
On the topic of Hero Designer...it does all of what CB and AT currently do, only costs $25 for two years of updates and access to the HD Vault, and from what I have seen of it (up through v3) is a much better program than any WotC offerings to date with the possible exception of CB which is close in quality, but still probably a little short.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Not to mention both HERO and GURPS are systems that non-modular so there is very little variation from ruleset A to reulset B. (Just basically data entry) where as say for the update for Darksun you have to add in Wild Talents, Themes, plus the regular data entry.
And Java is well, quaint. Its a great multi-platform language to be sure, but its clunky and resource intensive.
And looking over HERO Designer Discussion forums, several install issues, it doesn't support the latest release of HERO at least not fully, and at least three threads related to debugging issues in the software.
Edit> Oh and several not correctly implemented powers that were posted in august, yet weren't included in the September updates....
So by saying that Hero is (I assume you meant) modular are you conceding that Hero is a better designed system than D&D which is a game of exceptions? Not sure the point here since you also concede that they are still doing coding on Hero Designer just as WotC is still doing coding on Character Builder.
What ever you may think of Java (I don't particularly like it myself) Hero Designer works, is cross platform (another benefit that doesn't do anything for me as a Windows user, but helps others) and is actually not clunky at all, though it was fairly resource intensive when I was using it.
So you're saying that Hero Designer is kind of like Character Builder. It doesn't fully implement the 4th Edition rules, is full of bugs (which BTW none of which have been addressed at all for over a year), and has numerous threads complaining about issues in these very forums. The only difference I can see is that Simon is actually working on things (as fast as one person can, mind you) and communicates frequently with the customers about his progress. [sarcasm] Yeah, I guess I have to agree that Hero Designer is terrible.
[/sarcasm]Regards,
Kalex the Omen
So by saying that Hero is (I assume you meant) modular are you conceding that Hero is a better designed system than D&D which is a game of exceptions? Not sure the point here since you also concede that they are still doing coding on Hero Designer just as WotC is still doing coding on Character Builder.
I don't know how you got Hero is Modular from my post saying it isn't. Its non-modular. DnD is modular in that each power/feat exsists in its own bubble of the rules and alters the rules. Its kinda like how White Wolf approaches games the rules exsist in the background the player parts exsist in the foreground and alter the way the rules work.
GURPS/HERO/Rolemater are non-modular. Their rules are a lot less flexible, this makes some things (digital tools) easier and other things more diffcult, after all there is a reason that Hero's core book can stop bullets and its not that its kevlar lined.
What ever you may think of Java (I don't particularly like it myself) Hero Designer works, is cross platform (another benefit that doesn't do anything for me as a Windows user, but helps others) and is actually not clunky at all, though it was fairly resource intensive when I was using it.
Though I have played Hero I have never used HD so I can't speak to its ability, but I have been told by various programmers that even switching to an antiquated language like python can save literally millions of lines of code compared to Java this is what I meant by clunky, its not a referance to anything an end user would see just the complexity of programming.
So you're saying that Hero Designer is kind of like Character Builder. It doesn't fully implement the 4th Edition rules, is full of bugs (which BTW none of which have been addressed at all for over a year), and has numerous threads complaining about issues in these very forums. The only difference I can see is that Simon is actually working on things (as fast as one person can, mind you) and communicates frequently with the customers about his progress. [sarcasm] Yeah, I guess I have to agree that Hero Designer is terrible.
Except it does fully implement the 4E rules. In so far as there aren't threads that are multipaged and updated daily with 'When is CB going to be 4E compatiable'. Like there is for Hero Designer. Which bugs haven't been addressed? From what I see while it might take a month or two, the team at wizards (Which I think is about three people for three applications so um 1 per application same number). addresses it timely.
[moj-uh-ler]
–adjective
2. composed of standardized units or sections for easy construction or flexible arrangement: a modular home; a modular sofa.
Everything in Hero is standardized and modular. Everything works exactly the same no matter what you are talking about. Although the format for powers and feats in D&D is standardized, they actually can't be called modular because they don't fit the rules, they break them in individual ways.
The reason FRED stops bullets is because the rules cover everything you need in one book (and a lot of things you maybe don't need...my reason for no longer playing Hero is I find it too granular). The other books really are nothing more than fluff. They do contain some crunch, but are largely clarifications of rules not new or revised/changed rules. Hero is the most flexible system ever devised for role-playing hands down.
As to Java, I'm sure newer languages could provide better results in length of code, and resource management, but Java is what Simon knows. I don't fault them for choice of language when they have such a great product.
It doesn't fully implement the 4e rules. See here and here and here. I think this one known issue proves you wrong...
- Power stats only calculate attack and damage. The builder does not yet calculate the stats for the off-hand weapon in dual-wield powers, temporary hit points, type of damage, healing. We also do not modify the power when feats or class features change the related powers in some ways.
And you really must not read the threads I've read, but WotC hasn't fixed a bug in CB or MB for over a year. If you've been paying attention the updates no longer give bug fixes only data updates for over a year.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Why not extend the situation to Paizo? They have about 26 or 27 employees total, but they crank out tons of books and products every month--many more so than WotC, actually.
Good point. I'm getting really tired of apologists pleading not enough staff, or too little money. Companies do make a living in this industry with far less staff and certainly far less money. I think either WotC or Hasbro has set unrealistic profit goals for this industry and that is where a large number of these issues arise.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Why not extend the situation to Paizo? They have about 26 or 27 employees total, but they crank out tons of books and products every month--many more so than WotC, actually.
They outsource a lot of their work, and so they are mostly just product managing. That means quality varies greatly, based on who's doing the work.
WoTC hires a lot of freelance writers, long term, but for the most part, it's all done in house, which gives a company better control of quality. (If a persons reply is to question the quality of WOTC books, that's a wholed different subject, and does nothing to address about company structure)
They also don't develope all their own products, a lot of time they buy someone elses, and put their own name on it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a lot easier.
Also, for putting out more products then WoTC, it hasn't given them better sales then WoTC.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You wouldn't. Which is why WotC is offering refunds to anyone who paid for September.
If you would like a refund, simply contact Customer Service.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You also didn't get the example. I didn't say you can use something else to pound the nail in, I said you can find another way to secure two pieces of wood.
Meaning, there's more then one way of doing something. It's just that some are easier then others.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You also didn't get the example. I didn't say you can use something else to pound the nail in, I said you can find another way to secure two pieces of wood.
Meaning, there's more then one way of doing something. It's just that some are easier then others.
And you apparently don't get the guy's counter example, which is basically if you are going to "find another way" to do something there is no point in paying somebody whose purpose is to do things the other way. If you are going to pound your own nails, there is no point in paying a carpenter. If you are going to make characters by hand, there is no point in paying WOTC for a character builder.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You wouldn't. Which is why WotC is offering refunds to anyone who paid for September.
If you would like a refund, simply contact Customer Service.
I practically got my nose bloodied for suggesting that Wizards should try either issue refunds or provide the content that subscribers missed out on when the Genasi article got pushed back. It's funny how things can change.
I just want to say that providing refunds for September is above and beyond what I expected from WoTC. It's nice to see that they are handling this so professionally.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You also didn't get the example. I didn't say you can use something else to pound the nail in, I said you can find another way to secure two pieces of wood.
Meaning, there's more then one way of doing something. It's just that some are easier then others.
And you apparently don't get the guy's counter example, which is basically if you are going to "find another way" to do something there is no point in paying somebody whose purpose is to do things the other way. If you are going to pound your own nails, there is no point in paying a carpenter. If you are going to make characters by hand, there is no point in paying WOTC for a character builder.
Uh, that wasn't his counter example. And the whole thing about paying for something was answered by telling them they could get a refund.
Why not put your time to better use over looking to find ways to counter everything I post?
Talk about bitter.
Why not extend the situation to Paizo? They have about 26 or 27 employees total, but they crank out tons of books and products every month--many more so than WotC, actually.
And how may of WotC's employees are dedicated to DnD?
Oh and lets not forget that they are doing what Mongoose did in the early days of D20 and basically allowing their freelancers to run wild with little brand orientation (which is why the Quint line is universally banned from my tables).
At one point mongoose was pumping out two books a month, of which a third was within a normal power scale, a third was a trap and the remaining third makes blade cascade issues look like a door mouse.
I dunno about that. The tools make it easier, which I'm totally for. But you don't need them to play the game. Which is what I think people lose site of. The tools are just that, tools. A hammer makes it easier to pound nails, but if you didn't have a hammer and nails, there are other ways to secure two pieces of wood.
I just had to respond to this.
Its so silly.
If I am going to whack a nail in with my dress shoes, why in the holy hell should I pay a carpenter to be on site?
You wouldn't. Which is why WotC is offering refunds to anyone who paid for September.
If you would like a refund, simply contact Customer Service.
I appreciate the good advice. I did receive a refund for September already, Asmodeus, from the original thread on this, and I have also since cancelled my insider sub.
I'm still extremely unhappy with the whole affair, as I want the tools to work. I was paying $9.99 per month for the Character Builder. I don't care if some people like the mags, or whatever, I do not.
If you want to pass this along, though, I'm not resubscribing to D&DI again until the update is not just on the Calendar, but is actually live, and a real person tells me they updated their CB and the content is in and working. Then, and only then, am I resubbing, and I will do so for 1 month and 1 month only. I will then resub on a monthly basis, dependent on content.
So this went from a fire and forget $10/mth because I was happy, to a micromanaged $10 when I feel the content justifies the purchase based on the extreme discontent I feel and the mismanagement.