Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).
I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
>wave<
As far as I can tell there is no good reason to be subscibing to DDI now. Countless others have cancelled or didn't renew their subscriptions and WotC doesn't seem to be in a big hurry to make the current DDI features work correctly or be anything close to worth it for the price they charge. You are doing the only thing you can do, speaking with your wallet. Maybe WotC will listen, and if they don't they will pay dearly for it.
I hope so. Still, I think I died a little inside.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
My DDI runs out this month sometime. I am also done with DDI. We have stuck a stake in the dirt and this is where we do not cross with 4E. The last things we purchased were the last essentials books, and that is where it will be frozen for us.
In fact, my entire gaming group is dissillusioned with WotC entirely. Another group that I know have moved on from D&D. For some of them, this is the first time they have not played D&D for a significant amount of time for almost 30 years, and they do not plan to return.
It is a sad state of affairs, really. All of us in my group having this feeling of despair for the game we have played for so long.
It is crazy really. Even when we did not buy alot of products, there was Dragon or Dungeon we could pick up accasionally and read through. That just isn't the case anymore, and it has changed the feeling of our gaming.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
My DDI runs out this month sometime. I am also done with DDI. We have stuck a stake in the dirt and this is where we do not cross with 4E. The last things we purchased were the last essentials books, and that is where it will be frozen for us.
In fact, my entire gaming group is dissillusioned with WotC entirely. Another group that I know have moved on from D&D. For some of them, this is the first time they have not played D&D for a significant amount of time for almost 30 years, and they do not plan to return.
It is a sad state of affairs, really. All of us in my group having this feeling of despair for the game we have played for so long.
It is crazy really. Even when we did not buy alot of products, there was Dragon or Dungeon we could pick up accasionally and read through. That just isn't the case anymore, and it has changed the feeling of our gaming.
Sorry but this sounds kind of insane. How could problems with current content affect the story arc/plot of a D&D game? Its one thing if you're just tired of the system and want to try one of the many different Table top RPGs, but to abandon D&D - a game you've enjoyed and already own material for - because you don't like WoTC at the moment just seems weird.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
My DDI runs out this month sometime. I am also done with DDI. We have stuck a stake in the dirt and this is where we do not cross with 4E. The last things we purchased were the last essentials books, and that is where it will be frozen for us.
In fact, my entire gaming group is dissillusioned with WotC entirely. Another group that I know have moved on from D&D. For some of them, this is the first time they have not played D&D for a significant amount of time for almost 30 years, and they do not plan to return.
It is a sad state of affairs, really. All of us in my group having this feeling of despair for the game we have played for so long.
It is crazy really. Even when we did not buy alot of products, there was Dragon or Dungeon we could pick up accasionally and read through. That just isn't the case anymore, and it has changed the feeling of our gaming.
Sorry but this sounds kind of insane. How could problems with current content affect the story arc/plot of a D&D game? Its one thing if you're just tired of the system and want to try one of the many different Table top RPGs, but to abandon D&D - a game you've enjoyed and already own material for - because you don't like WoTC at the moment just seems weird.
No, its a statement. If someone asks if you want to play D&D and they say "I don't play D&D because WotC are fascist pigs" (not my opinion in reality) then you get some understanding, plus they won't recommend it to anyone else...
I agree with the OP that it is harder to find a reason to continue paying for DDI, but I'll manage with hacking my own tools in order to keep playing, because I really like the core system. I will also say, doing this takes a lot of work, and probably not a reasonable option for most players and DMs.
The arguement that usually comes up in these kinds of thread, that voting with your wallet (ending your DDI account), is hurting the continued developement of tools, doesn't hold much water for me. Corporations like Hasbro have tons of money, or atleast the ability to borrow it (if they don't I don't really trust them to be the custodian of a brand that is near sacred to me). I think that its easier to see continued payment, even though you are dissatisfied, will be seen as support for the current design and business decisions, which are exactly the things that people complain about. DRM is a huge problem in the current system, which i have posted about elsewhere.
All the signs are pointing to lack of resources being given to the designers (software and game) to create a good product. But a question that I am interested in, is are those resources suppose to come from customers, or from how profits are distributed within a company? Am I suggesting that successful product lines should subsidize lesser ones? Yes, but only if a company believes in the product and has a clear vision for its success. Nothing I've been seeing so far indicates that Hasbro believes in Dnd anymore. Matter of fact, most the moves I've seen have been have changing the DnD brand into something more similiar to other successful brands that Hasbro owns, board games and card games. DDI seems like an experiement that has met with limited success, in terms of a corporate financial portfolio, and recent reduction in resources for development is evidence of this. But I would argue, anecdotally, that DDI was a great success in it's previous form, in that it kept me buying products and gave me tools to keep players interested in the game. If you agree with me so far, than its not a huge leap to suggest, that Hasbro clearly doesn't seen supporting DDI as worth while, so why should we?
If this doesn't change, I think the only thing that will make the "quiters" happy, and would probably make me happy, is that Hasbro sell the DnD brand to a company with more reasonable expectations about what a tabletop RPG is capable of producing in terms of profits. If no company exists, that can reasonably enhance and support the game with quality designers, can afford to buy the brand because it's worth so much money, then they can afford to hire some good developers and build us a DDI that wont have so many people "quiting" publicly in the official forums.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
My DDI runs out this month sometime. I am also done with DDI. We have stuck a stake in the dirt and this is where we do not cross with 4E. The last things we purchased were the last essentials books, and that is where it will be frozen for us.
In fact, my entire gaming group is dissillusioned with WotC entirely. Another group that I know have moved on from D&D. For some of them, this is the first time they have not played D&D for a significant amount of time for almost 30 years, and they do not plan to return.
It is a sad state of affairs, really. All of us in my group having this feeling of despair for the game we have played for so long.
It is crazy really. Even when we did not buy alot of products, there was Dragon or Dungeon we could pick up accasionally and read through. That just isn't the case anymore, and it has changed the feeling of our gaming.
Sorry but this sounds kind of insane. How could problems with current content affect the story arc/plot of a D&D game? Its one thing if you're just tired of the system and want to try one of the many different Table top RPGs, but to abandon D&D - a game you've enjoyed and already own material for - because you don't like WoTC at the moment just seems weird.
No, its a statement. If someone asks if you want to play D&D and they say "I don't play D&D because WotC are fascist pigs" (not my opinion in reality) then you get some understanding, plus they won't recommend it to anyone else...
A statement? This is a game, a hobby, not a political movement. Most people would respond, "Um, ok" and then percede to the next available person and ask them if they want to play.
I think the pro-WoTC crowd sees this type of criticism as a direct attack (or atleast an insult) about a game/company they hold near sacred. But for the most part, I see these as healthy posts, (and I think most the designer at WoTC are great) that come mostly, from people who care deeply about the game and want for it to be better. I also think that the idea that statements posted on forums are not or should not be political is impossible since democracy (voting with your wallet) and capitalism (DnD as business) clearly go hand in hand. Quiting and doing so quietly, which I'm almost sure is happening at a frightening rate, is the worst thing that someone that cares about the DnD brand should do. The current state of DnD, arguably, indicates that Hasbro has not invested money in well done market research about DnD consumers. But if they really wanted to know, all they would have to do is look at the forums, and through thousands of posts, what would they see?
I hope they would see a dedicated fan base debating and discussing all the possible ways to make DnD better. I hope they would see a lot of passion about the game, and a good reason to invest more resources into the brand. I hope the see a fan base that must be nurtured and earned and not one that will dutifully pay up, when the tax collectors arrive, even though they get no representation.
And a note to the "quiters" and the "anti-WoTC" crowd. This post has been rather harsh on people that get mad at you. And that harshness is justified, if you don't direct your complaints at the right source. I personally think that the developers (software and designers) are doing almost everything they can with the resources and restraints they are given. I've bought most the books, and read them, and I think that the generally quality is high. I think there's alot of talent there. But let us agree that that talent needs support to keep putting out good stuff. I think what the two sides disagree about is where that support should come from.
Something interesting just occured to me. I think that a common conflict in the forums, that can be oversimplified as pro-WoTC and anti-WoTC, especially regarding DDI, is done from a misundertanding that can be reasonably resolved in all but they most extreme cases. For instance, most of the quit DDI posting I've seen, have fairly rational, reasonable, and predictable stated reasons that can be debated, but are not clearly "insane", by which I assume means lack of all rationality, reasonability and predicatbility. The opposition to these posts are usually instense and usually aggressive and confrontational, and understandably so...
I think the pro-WoTC crowd sees this type of criticism as a direct attack (or atleast an insult) about a game/company they hold near sacred. But for the most part, I see these as healthy posts, (and I think most the designer at WoTC are great) that come mostly, from people who care deeply about the game and want for it to be better. I also think that the idea that statements posted on forums are not or should not be political is impossible since democracy (voting with your wallet) and capitalism (DnD as business) clearly go hand in hand. Quiting and doing so quietly, which I'm almost sure is happening at a frightening rate, is the worst thing that someone that cares about the DnD brand should do. The current state of DnD, arguably, indicates that Hasbro has not invested money in well done market research about DnD consumers. But if they really wanted to know, all they would have to do is look at the forums, and through thousands of posts, what would they see?
I hope they would see a dedicated fan base debating and discussing all the possible ways to make DnD better. I hope they would see a lot of passion about the game, and a good reason to invest more resources into the brand. I hope the see a fan base that must be nurtured and earned and not one that will dutifully pay up, when the tax collectors arrive, even though they get no representation.
And a note to the "quiters" and the "anti-WoTC" crowd. This post has been rather harsh on people that get mad at you. And that harshness is justified, if you don't direct your complaints at the right source. I personally think that the developers (software and designers) are doing almost everything they can with the resources and restraints they are given. I've bought most the books, and read them, and I think that the generally quality is high. I think there's alot of talent there. But let us agree that that talent needs support to keep putting out good stuff. I think what the two sides disagree about is where that support should come from.
If you're referring to my post, I think you misread it. I wasn't saying he was insane for dropping his DDI subscription. I was saying that him being unable to enjoy a well crafted story arc/plot (assuming his gaming group provides such) because the current direction of WoTC isn't up to his standards is quite silly.
Whatever WoTC is currently doing, good or bad, shouldn't have an impact on a fantasy world with material he already owns and that's already met his standards and he has previously enjoyed. Basically, how does the cancellation of a book he's never used affect games he's currently playing in? It seems he's letting some meta issues of how he thinks WoTC should be run as a company affect his ability to enjoy a game he likes. Thats kind of insane, imo.
But now that I've reread your post and the ones you quoted, my post still doesnt seem compeletly erroneous (sp?). I read his post as: "DDI sucks (because this is a DDI thread), my players are losing interest (because DDI sucks), we're quiting." I'm not sure if you were refering to the post directly above yours or the one quote above that, but thats how I read it. And if I'm reading it correctly, point out where I'm not, your saying he's insane for doing so. If this is about one product, specifically a book that isn't coming out, then that might be over reacting on his part (insane seems rather deragotory), but if this is about DDI, and its reduction of quality and inspiriation needed to maintain his personal player base, then its not only not insane, but sad and understandable, even more so because it seems to me preventable.
Yeah, I think it did misread it. Sorry. And I inadvertantly called you out when I referenced insanity. I apologize for that too. It's just that the quit posts all sort of blurred together, and I started saying things in this post that I wanted to say in other ones.
But now that I've reread your post and the ones you quoted, my post still doesnt seem compeletly erroneous (sp?). I read his post as: "DDI sucks (because this is a DDI thread), my players are losing interest (because DDI sucks), we're quiting." I'm not sure if you were refering to the post directly above yours or the one quote above that, but thats how I read it. And if I'm reading it correctly, point out where I'm not, your saying he's insane for doing so. If this is about one product, specifically a book that isn't coming out, then that might be over reacting on his part (insane seems rather deragotory), but if this is about DDI, and its reduction of quality and inspiriation needed to maintain his personal player base, then its not only not insane, but sad and understandable, even more so because it seems to me preventable.
First off, we're not talking Jeffrey Dahmer level insane... more like conspiracy theory crazy, or at the very least just flat out irrational.
The part where he talks about dropping the DDI, that isn't the problem. It’s when he starts saying how his entire gaming group is disillusioned with WotC, seeming to connect this to an inability to enjoy D&D. Like I said before, whatever WotC is currently doing, good or bad, it shouldn't have an impact on a fantasy world with material he already owns and that has already met his standards and he as previously enjoyed.
When 3.0 came out I hated it and I hated the direction D&D had taken, but I didn't quit D&D because products I didn't like were being released, nor did it lessen my enjoyment of the 2.0 game I was in at the time. I was disinterested in 4.0 when it came out, and again that disinterest didn't kill my enjoyment of my current game. In fact my gaming group had multiple fun campaigns of the previous editions while the newer ones we hated where being produced and it had zero impact on us. And even if he drops DDI, that isn't a reason to quit playing D&D. You don't even need DDI to play D&D... people did without it for over 30 years.
To use a quote from his post, "It is crazy really".
Yes it is my friend, yes it is.
Some people can play BECAUSE of DDi. DDi (allegedly) speeds up preparation and game play. Without it some don't have enough time to play...
To whom are you responding? If its to me, this is irrelevant to the points I made in my post.
Some people can play BECAUSE of DDi. DDi (allegedly) speeds up preparation and game play. Without it some don't have enough time to play...
To whom are you responding? If its to me, this is irrelevant to the points I made in my post.
And even if he drops DDI, that isn't a reason to quit playing D&D. You don't even need DDI to play D&D... people did without it for over 30 years.
Here, just imagine this is what I was replying too...
Some people can play BECAUSE of DDi. DDi (allegedly) speeds up preparation and game play. Without it some don't have enough time to play...
To whom are you responding? If its to me, this is irrelevant to the points I made in my post.And even if he drops DDI, that isn't a reason to quit playing D&D. You don't even need DDI to play D&D... people did without it for over 30 years.
Here, just imagine this is what I was replying too...
I knew what you were replying to, and its irrelevant. The thrust of my post was that his dislike of the direction of WotC, from DDI to whatever other business decisions they've made that he doesn't like, was affecting his groups ability to enjoy their games because, as he put it, they were disillusioned. That has nothing to do with time management and nowhere in his post did he say that he was now unable to play due to time constraints because he dropped his DDI subscription.
Some people can play BECAUSE of DDi. DDi (allegedly) speeds up preparation and game play. Without it some don't have enough time to play...
To whom are you responding? If its to me, this is irrelevant to the points I made in my post.And even if he drops DDI, that isn't a reason to quit playing D&D. You don't even need DDI to play D&D... people did without it for over 30 years.
Here, just imagine this is what I was replying too...
I knew what you were replying to, and its irrelevant. The thrust of my post was that his dislike of the direction of WotC, from DDI to whatever other business decisions they've made that he doesn't like, was affecting his groups ability to enjoy their games because, as he put it, they were disillusioned. That has nothing to do with time management and nowhere in his post did he say that he was now unable to play due to time constraints because he dropped his DDI subscription.
That's fine, but you said it not me. I was just correcting you...
Some people can play BECAUSE of DDi. DDi (allegedly) speeds up preparation and game play. Without it some don't have enough time to play...
To whom are you responding? If its to me, this is irrelevant to the points I made in my post.And even if he drops DDI, that isn't a reason to quit playing D&D. You don't even need DDI to play D&D... people did without it for over 30 years.
Here, just imagine this is what I was replying too...
I knew what you were replying to, and its irrelevant. The thrust of my post was that his dislike of the direction of WotC, from DDI to whatever other business decisions they've made that he doesn't like, was affecting his groups ability to enjoy their games because, as he put it, they were disillusioned. That has nothing to do with time management and nowhere in his post did he say that he was now unable to play due to time constraints because he dropped his DDI subscription.
That's fine, but you said it not me. I was just correcting you...
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...
Many people? First you said "some" so you could equivocate, but now it's "many"? Do you have any proof to back up this claim? That there are legions of gamers unable to play D&D without the DDI, a game that's been played for decades without time saving programs?
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...Many people? First you said "some" so you could equivocate, but now it's "many"? Do you have any proof to back up this claim? That there are legions of gamers unable to play D&D without the DDI, a game that's been played for decades without time saving programs?
Let's apply a little logic to your rebuttal.
Young fans of D&D have become old fans of D&D. These old fans now have jobs/families/real life commitments. They do not have the time to invest now as they did as as young fans of the game. They need time saving utilities, particularly since the rules of the games have significantly changed in 4E.
I am one such person. And as a DM, if I don't play, then there are 7 other players that are not playing D&D. That is 8 customers right there. There are many like us that have had discussions on this very same topic in these very same forums.
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...Many people? First you said "some" so you could equivocate, but now it's "many"? Do you have any proof to back up this claim? That there are legions of gamers unable to play D&D without the DDI, a game that's been played for decades without time saving programs?
Let's apply a little logic to your rebuttal.
Young fans of D&D have become old fans of D&D. These old fans now have jobs/families/real life commitments. They do not have the time to invest now as they did as as young fans of the game. They need time saving utilities, particularly since the rules of the games have significantly changed in 4E.
I am one such person. And as a DM, if I don't play, then there are 7 other players that are not playing D&D. That is 8 customers right there. There are many like us that have had discussions on this very same topic in these very same forums.
Thats all good, but lokiare simply stated that some cannot play 4E without the DDI. That statement is false. Anyone can play 4E D&D without DDI. It might be the basic PHB and MM because one may not have the time to go through every book and every option available, but 4E can be played without DDI.
My only point in that post was to counter lokarie's false argument.
Thats all good, but lokiare simply stated that some cannot play 4E without the DDI. That statement is false. Anyone can play 4E D&D without DDI. It might be the basic PHB and MM because one may not have the time to go through every book and every option available, but 4E can be played without DDI.My only point in that post was to counter lokarie's false argument.
If DDI is their only exposure to the rules, then there could be a subset of people that need DDI. It's simply the opposite end of your argument... People don't need the books to play D&D, just DDI. Both are legitimate (and "legal") players.
Heck, you don't even truly need either paper or digital, but I don't think that's what this is all about. That's the problem when arguments are based off semantics and exaggerations.
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...Many people? First you said "some" so you could equivocate, but now it's "many"? Do you have any proof to back up this claim? That there are legions of gamers unable to play D&D without the DDI, a game that's been played for decades without time saving programs?
Let's apply a little logic to your rebuttal.
Young fans of D&D have become old fans of D&D. These old fans now have jobs/families/real life commitments. They do not have the time to invest now as they did as as young fans of the game. They need time saving utilities, particularly since the rules of the games have significantly changed in 4E.
I am one such person. And as a DM, if I don't play, then there are 7 other players that are not playing D&D. That is 8 customers right there. There are many like us that have had discussions on this very same topic in these very same forums.
First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic. That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
Thats all good, but lokiare simply stated that some cannot play 4E without the DDI. That statement is false. Anyone can play 4E D&D without DDI. It might be the basic PHB and MM because one may not have the time to go through every book and every option available, but 4E can be played without DDI.My only point in that post was to counter lokarie's false argument.
If DDI is their only exposure to the rules, then there could be a subset of people that need DDI. It's simply the opposite end of your argument... People don't need the books to play D&D, just DDI. Both are legitimate (and "legal") players.
Heck, you don't even truly need either paper or digital, but I don't think that's what this is all about. That's the problem when arguments are based off semantics and exaggerations.
People who are only exposed to the rules with DDI are still capable of playing without it. They may not want to, which is a different point, but they are certainly capable of doing it.
People who are only exposed to the rules with DDI are still capable of playing without it. They may not want to, which is a different point, but they are certainly capable of doing it.
And yet you still overlook the convenience of it all. Time is a commodity. If people do not have the excess time to devote to this "media-free" mentality, then this want most assuredly evolves into a need.
Fact: I absolutely need digital assistance when creating and managing my campaign. Without it, no campaign.
My apologies, but you cannot speak for 100% of the population when specifying wants and needs.
First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic.
Oh, yeah. I forgot.
That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
I think I covered this in my subsequent post.
You didn't correct me, you just gave a response that had a false premise. People can still play without the DDI. You can make a character without the DDI. You may not have all the options the DDI provides, due to time constraints, but you can still make a basic 4E character without the DDI. Your assertion only stated that some cannot play without it, which is obviously untrue.
It isn't a false premise. Many people don't have time for D&D unless there are enough time saving programs to speed up play...Many people? First you said "some" so you could equivocate, but now it's "many"? Do you have any proof to back up this claim? That there are legions of gamers unable to play D&D without the DDI, a game that's been played for decades without time saving programs?
Let's apply a little logic to your rebuttal.
Young fans of D&D have become old fans of D&D. These old fans now have jobs/families/real life commitments. They do not have the time to invest now as they did as as young fans of the game. They need time saving utilities, particularly since the rules of the games have significantly changed in 4E.
I am one such person. And as a DM, if I don't play, then there are 7 other players that are not playing D&D. That is 8 customers right there. There are many like us that have had discussions on this very same topic in these very same forums.
First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic. That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
None of my posts have been directed to the OP. I agree that DDI is a very useful tool and, while not strictly speaking a core tool, since core tool implies, to me anyway, that the game mechanics could not be played without it, DDI is a great innovation for table top gaming, imo. I haven't said anything to the contrary.
I also never disagreed that someone could or should quit D&D based off of poor DDI performance. My original post was directed at the guy who was disillusioned with WotC and seemed to let this general malaise affect his enjoyment of campaigns he was involved in. Then lokarie started talking about time constraints and D&D being unplayable without the DDI, which had nothing to do with my original post.
People who are only exposed to the rules with DDI are still capable of playing without it. They may not want to, which is a different point, but they are certainly capable of doing it.
And yet you still overlook the convenience of it all. Time is a commodity. If people do not have the excess time to devote to this "media-free" mentality, then this want most assuredly evolves into a need.
Fact: I absolutely need digital assistance when creating and managing my campaign. Without it, no campaign.
My apologies, but you cannot speak for 100% of the population when specifying wants and needs.First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic.
Oh, yeah. I forgot.That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
I think I covered this in my subsequent post.
By your own admission you're choosing to be dependent on the DDI for D&D. My point only spoke to the capability of an average human being able to play 4E, which can be done without a DDI subscription, regardless of time constrains.
Honestly, at this point, we're just talking passed each other.
By your own admission you're choosing to be dependent on the DDI for D&D. My point only spoke to the capability of an average human being able to play 4E, which can be done without a DDI subscription.
Two points here...
I am not choosing to be dependent on anything. Time does not allow me the luxury of being able to manage a campaign without digital assistance... which leads me to point two.
My own personal choice of digital assistance has nothing to do with DDI. I use DDI solely for Dragon and Dungeon magazines. But I most assuredly would love it if DDI provided me with that type of functionality and usefulness, or anything remotely resembling one.
All of that being said, you may as well throw want and need out the door. It's completely irrelevant. Wizards should be providing material (physical and digital) that bring people to the game and keep them here. Playing a game, which is what this is, should never be about weighing wants vs. needs to determine if we can play or not. They should be providing us with whatever is necessary to keep us playing the game as frequently as possible. After all, that means money for them.
People who are only exposed to the rules with DDI are still capable of playing without it. They may not want to, which is a different point, but they are certainly capable of doing it.
And yet you still overlook the convenience of it all. Time is a commodity. If people do not have the excess time to devote to this "media-free" mentality, then this want most assuredly evolves into a need.
Fact: I absolutely need digital assistance when creating and managing my campaign. Without it, no campaign.
My apologies, but you cannot speak for 100% of the population when specifying wants and needs.First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic.
Oh, yeah. I forgot.That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
I think I covered this in my subsequent post.
Yeah, we were posting at the same time.
I was to lazy to get all fancy with multiquoting, but the Lath. I said core aspect, not core tool, in which you are correct. DDI is not strictly required. But I can totally see why someone would quite because of Hasbro's treatment of it. Can you not? And yes it has almost everything to do with the company, most certainly the business managers and not the designers. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, I'm just surprised that you can't accept this as a possible reaction to all that has been done, since for many folks DDI is the new way, especially newer players, experience DnD now exclusively. I have two players that just subscribe to DDI and never bought books. At one point, I tried to require they buy books for the abilities they used, but that was just silly of me and I gave up. DDI itself made this possible. Not only possible, likely. So its not a far leap to suggest that if DDI isn't fun anymore, then the game is not fun. I don't agree with that personally, because I can hack together my own tools and resources to play DnD, but I don't think its "insane".
What might be insane, and I consider myself part of this group, is caring so much more about a brand than the people who benefit financially from it care about it (Hasbro). That sounds insane. It's like quiting smoking, even though I can't I'm proud when other people do and they shouldn't be insulted for it.
Edit: And where I come from "insane" and "irrational" are both fighting words. They are often used to discredit some else's opinion, but not the opinion itself, because those words often reference a possible condition of the speaker, not the statement itself. What's interesting is that I saw nothing in the posts that you originally quoted that constituted any attack on you, or even on your point of view. So why the attack?
By your own admission you're choosing to be dependent on the DDI for D&D. My point only spoke to the capability of an average human being able to play 4E, which can be done without a DDI subscription.
Two points here...
I am not choosing to be dependent on anything. Time does not allow me the luxury of being able to manage a campaign without digital assistance... which leads me to point two.
My own personal choice of digital assistance has nothing to do with DDI. I use DDI solely for Dragon and Dungeon magazines. But I most assuredly would love it if DDI provided me with that type of functionality and usefulness, or anything remotely resembling one.
No, you could play 4E with just a handful of classes and a handful of monsters and not need DDI. Your preference is to play 4E with more options, hence your self imposed need of DDI. It is definitely a choice based off of preference, and there's nothing wrong with that.
My point has nothing to do with that. My point is simply a theoretical counter to lokarie's false argument. People came in and read into it what they wanted, but a theoretical counter is all it was ever meant to be.
People who are only exposed to the rules with DDI are still capable of playing without it. They may not want to, which is a different point, but they are certainly capable of doing it.
And yet you still overlook the convenience of it all. Time is a commodity. If people do not have the excess time to devote to this "media-free" mentality, then this want most assuredly evolves into a need.
Fact: I absolutely need digital assistance when creating and managing my campaign. Without it, no campaign.
My apologies, but you cannot speak for 100% of the population when specifying wants and needs.First of all, forums are not the place to be exercising logic.
Oh, yeah. I forgot.That being said, I agree with Lathrin that DDI is not necessary to play DnD. You don't need DDI to play DnD strictly speaking. You don't need 4e either. Or dice. Or even other players, or a DM, strictly speaking. This is related to the rule zero fallacy that is referenced in my signature.
If WoTC all of sudden eviscerated on those aspects of the game, it wouldn't make it so we couldn't play DnD. It would just make it inconvient and less fun.
For me, and I believe the OP, DDI seemed to be a core aspect of DnD 4e and I wonder if Lathrin would admit that that is possible? If not, let us all just agree to disagree. If Lathrin can agree to that, then why would it not be possible for someone to quit playing because that particular aspect was altered in some unfavorable way?
I think I covered this in my subsequent post.
Yeah, we were posting at the same time.
I was to lazy to get all fancy with multiquoting, but the Lath. I said core aspect, not core tool, in which you are correct. DDI is not strictly required. But I can totally see why someone would quite because of Hasbro's treatment of it. Can you not? And yes it has almost everything to do with the company, most certainly the business managers and not the designers. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, I'm just surprised that you can't accept this as a possible reaction to all that has been done, since for many folks DDI is the new way, especially newer players, experience DnD now exclusively. I have two players that just subscribe to DDI and never bought books. At one point, I tried to require they buy books for the abilities they used, but that was just silly of me and I gave up. DDI itself made this possible. Not only possible, likely. So its not a far leap to suggest that if DDI isn't fun anymore, then the game is not fun. I don't agree with that personally, because I can hack together my own tools and resources to play DnD, but I don't think its "insane".
What might be insane, and I consider myself part of this group, is caring so much more about a brand than the people who benefit financially from it care about it (Hasbro). That sounds insane. It's like quiting smoking, even though I can't I'm proud when other people do and they shouldn't be insulted for it.
Edit: And where I come from "insane" and "irrational" are both fighting words. They are often used to discredit some else's opinion, but not the opinion itself, because those words often reference a possible condition of the speaker, not the statement itself. What's interesting is that I saw nothing in the posts that you originally quoted that constituted any attack on you, or even on your point of view. So why the attack?
No, I cannot see why someone would stop playing D&D altogether simply because the DDI doesn't work to their satisfaction. What does the DDI have to do with a great story arc? What does it have to do with character interaction? This is my personal bias against hack'n'slash campaigns, and I can freely admit that. I was young at one time too, but as I've gotten older the shine of having big numbers on my character sheet, digital or paper, wore off long ago.
As far as the insane part, you're right, it was, probably, unnecessary. But I still maintain his position is at the very least irrational.
No, you could play 4E with just a handful of classes and a handful of monsters and not need DDI. Your preference is to play 4E with more options, hence your self imposed need of DDI. It is definitely a choice based off of preference, and there's nothing wrong with that.
My point has nothing to do with that. My point is simply a theoretical counter to lokarie's false argument. People came in and read into it what they wanted, but a theoretical counter is all it was ever meant to be.
I do not have a self-imposed need for DDI. I do not have any need for DDI. Please stop claiming such.
I am simply informing you that I can understand how some people do have a need to have DDI, just as some people have a need to have access to the paper books. You really don't have the authority to determine what people want and need, no matter what semantics you wrap it up in.
No, I cannot see why someone would stop playing D&D altogether simply because the DDI doesn't work to their satisfaction. What does the DDI have to do with a great story arc? What does it have to do with character interaction?
See, now you've stepped away from D&D and entered the generic world of role-playing, which you are well within your right to do, but not everyone has this distinction (or lack of) which you have.
You want everyone else to be open-minded about D&D and role-playing, but you are close-minded to the fact that other people may treat it differently. I am sure that you can see the fallacy in that, right?
[No, you could play 4E with just a handful of classes and a handful of monsters and not need DDI. Your preference is to play 4E with more options, hence your self imposed need of DDI. It is definitely a choice based off of preference, and there's nothing wrong with that.
My point has nothing to do with that. My point is simply a theoretical counter to lokarie's false argument. People came in and read into it what they wanted, but a theoretical counter is all it was ever meant to be.
I do not have a self-imposed need for DDI. I do not have any need for DDI. Please stop claiming such.
I am simply informing you that I can understand how some people do have a need to have DDI, just as some people have a need to have access to the paper books. You really don't have the authority to determine what people want and need, no matter what semantics you wrap it up in.
You're imposing a necessary relationship between the terms need and want. People don't need the DDI to play 4E. Their preferred gaming style for 4E may require a DDI subscription, but that's different than saying someone needs DDI to play 4E.
You're imposing a necessary relationship between the terms need and want. People don't need the DDI to play 4E. Their preferred gaming style for 4E may require a DDI subscription, but that's different than saying someone needs DDI to play 4E.
And you are arguing semantics. I already stated that want and need are irrelevant at this point in time. They bring nothing to this discussion.
No, I cannot see why someone would stop playing D&D altogether simply because the DDI doesn't work to their satisfaction. What does the DDI have to do with a great story arc? What does it have to do with character interaction?
See, now you've stepped away from D&D and entered the generic world of role-playing, which you are well within your right to do, but not everyone has this distinction (or lack of) which you have.
You want everyone else to be open-minded about D&D and role-playing, but you are close-minded to the fact that other people may treat it differently. I am sure that you can see the fallacy in that, right?
Of course and I admit it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
You're imposing a necessary relationship between the terms need and want. People don't need the DDI to play 4E. Their preferred gaming style for 4E may require a DDI subscription, but that's different than saying someone needs DDI to play 4E.
And you are arguing semantics. I already stated that want and need are irrelevant at this point in time. They bring nothing to this discussion.
Ok, so without using the terms want or need, or using synonyms, please try to summarize our discussion.
Of course and I admit it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
What are we talking about again??
Listen, I share that same viewpoint towards role playing and D&D as you do. I have even stated elsewhere, on many occasions, that you can role-play in Monopoly if you so choose. Great, we get it.
Not everyone has that mentality or viewpoint. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Ok, so without using the terms want or need, or using synonyms, please try to summarize our discussion.
Some people learned to play D&D from DDI and use the rulesets provided within. Without DDI, they are unable to continue playing because they cannot manage their characters and/or the monsters in their campaigns, or both. Without access to the compendium, they no longer have access to the material.
Please don't ask me to define "some." It's somewhere between 1 player/DM and all but one of the players/DMs.
Of course and I admit it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
What are we talking about again??
Listen, I share that same viewpoint towards role playing and D&D as you do. I have even stated elsewhere, on many occasions, that you can role-play in Monopoly if you so choose. Great, we get it.
Not everyone has that mentality or viewpoint. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Ok here is where you are just crazy wrong. Roleplaying is the only reason to play table top RPGs. Every good, real gamer knows this, obviously. Everyone else who wants to roll-play needs to close the books, or shut down the DDI, and log back into WoW and get on their little worgens and do whatever it is the alliance thinks it does best.
Of course and I admit it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
What are we talking about again??
Listen, I share that same viewpoint towards role playing and D&D as you do. I have even stated elsewhere, on many occasions, that you can role-play in Monopoly if you so choose. Great, we get it.
Not everyone has that mentality or viewpoint. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Ok here is where you are just crazy wrong. Roleplaying is the only reason to play table top RPGs. Every good, real gamer knows this, obviously. Everyone else who wants to roll-play needs to close the books, or shut down the DDI, and log back into WoW and get on their little worgens and do whatever it is the alliance thinks it does best.
And this is where you are just "crazy" derogatory for no reason (besides being incorrect). So much for civility and trying to keep it light-hearted, as apparently, that has no place in a discussion with you (along with logic).
Not everyone categorizes things like you do. Not everything fits into nice, neat, clean categories. Nor do you get to assail us with your classifications and call people wrong or right for having different viewpoints. I mean, sure, you can call people all the names you want (insane, crazy, wrong, not good, not real, etc.), but it says more about you than it does about anyone you are flaming.
I am sorry to say, you are not the be-all, end-all of all things role-playing.
Oh, and by the way, in case you haven't noticed, we are having a discussion in the D&DI section, which grants an inference that we are discussing the relationship of DDI to D&D. Beating the "Non-Digital" drum in the Digital section is really counter-productive and, at best, argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative.
Of course and I admit it, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.
What are we talking about again??
Listen, I share that same viewpoint towards role playing and D&D as you do. I have even stated elsewhere, on many occasions, that you can role-play in Monopoly if you so choose. Great, we get it.
Not everyone has that mentality or viewpoint. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Ok here is where you are just crazy wrong. Roleplaying is the only reason to play table top RPGs. Every good, real gamer knows this, obviously. Everyone else who wants to roll-play needs to close the books, or shut down the DDI, and log back into WoW and get on their little worgens and do whatever it is the alliance thinks it does best.
And this is where you are just "crazy" derogatory for no reason (besides being incorrect). So much for civility and trying to keep it light-hearted, as apparently, that has no place in a discussion with you (along with logic).
Not everyone categorizes things like you do. Not everything fits into nice, neat, clean categories. Nor do you get to assail us with your classifications and call people wrong or right for having different viewpoints. I mean, sure, you can call people all the names you want (insane, crazy, wrong, not good, not real, etc.), but it says more about you than it does about anyone you are flaming.
I am sorry to say, you are not the be-all, end-all of all things role-playing.
Man, I was joking. I mean, I do believe those things, but I realize that its a totally ridiculous position to have and that I'm wrong for having it. That post was a deadpan mocking of my own side… of course that stuff can be hard to convey through text.
Man, I was joking. I mean, I do believe those things, but I realize that its a totally ridiculous position to have and that I'm wrong for having it. That post was a deadpan mocking of my own side… of course that stuff can be hard to convey through text.
Okay, okay. I missed the sarcasm/joke in all that...
My apologies.
Man, I was joking. I mean, I do believe those things, but I realize that its a totally ridiculous position to have and that I'm wrong for having it. That post was a deadpan mocking of my own side… of course that stuff can be hard to convey through text.
Okay, okay. I missed the sarcasm/joke in all that...
My apologies.
No problem.
Well my final day with DDI has come. I loaded up DDI tools the other day only to find that my account had run out after 2 years. I have to admit that I am sad but I just can't justify 1-up-ing the account. I wasn't lucky enough to get in the beta for the VT tools, and like a few of you, that is what made me jump from 3.5 to 4 in the first place. So I guess waiting for these tools for FREE is better than paying to wait. For two years I checked the forums 2 or 3 times a week waiting for news and updates which never came, I guess I tired of that. I have a Epic level DnD group going so I guess I will limp along with paper and pens until the story dies out or my players get sick of all the paperwork.
Unless anyone can give me a good solid reason to set my account back up? (I'm looking at you Wotc devs - hehe) But I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows what I will do if more tools come out. I guess I will cross my fingers.
Anyway, I guess I'm just another DDI casualty and with this post I will quietly go off into the Shadowfell never to heard from again (or pester you anymore).I might be back if some major news comes, but until then, it's been fun - but not really.
My DDI runs out this month sometime. I am also done with DDI. We have stuck a stake in the dirt and this is where we do not cross with 4E. The last things we purchased were the last essentials books, and that is where it will be frozen for us.
In fact, my entire gaming group is dissillusioned with WotC entirely. Another group that I know have moved on from D&D. For some of them, this is the first time they have not played D&D for a significant amount of time for almost 30 years, and they do not plan to return.
It is a sad state of affairs, really. All of us in my group having this feeling of despair for the game we have played for so long.
It is crazy really. Even when we did not buy alot of products, there was Dragon or Dungeon we could pick up accasionally and read through. That just isn't the case anymore, and it has changed the feeling of our gaming.
Sorry but this sounds kind of insane. How could problems with current content affect the story arc/plot of a D&D game? Its one thing if you're just tired of the system and want to try one of the many different Table top RPGs, but to abandon D&D - a game you've enjoyed and already own material for - because you don't like WoTC at the moment just seems weird.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
Dude, thats insane bro. After all the defintion of sanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results. Or is it the other way around? If you just play harder, it will be more fun. And stop hanging out with lame quiters. People that stop doing things that they don't like are un-american. People just need to work hard and quit complaining, and keep sending their money to the approriate authorities.
Lokiare said (I paraphrase): "some people can't play D&D without DDI". While this statement can be proven true by producing a single instance of such a player (or DM), it can't be proven false at all. The non-existance of such a player would require you to know every player and ask them.
Now such a player has become known: Jharii. Unless Jharii is a liar with his pants on fire, Lokiare's statement is proven true.
The number of such players might be debatable, but this number is irrelevant as long as we know there's at least one.
And really, is it that far-fetched that players in his situation exist? DDI is supposed to be a facilitator for playing D&D. It is reasonable to assume that some players and DMs, especially among those who always used digital tools in their RPGs, only considered playing 4e because of DDI. Some of these, dissatisfied and disappointed at the seemingly uncontrolled dive DDI has taken these past 6 months, might just throw the towel and say: "to hell with that, we'll just play something that's complete with just one rulebook".
However, I do agree with you that ragequitting D&D just because WotC's practices have been despicable lately, even if the game is still enjoyable with the current material, is irrational. Or, as a statement, futile.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
Dude, thats insane bro. After all the defintion of sanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results. Or is it the other way around? If you just play harder, it will be more fun. And stop hanging out with lame quiters. People that stop doing things that they don't like are un-american. People just need to work hard and quit complaining, and keep sending their money to the approriate authorities.
Finally! You get it now. ;)
Lathrin, if I may? Here is the where your logic is flawed:
Lokiare said (I paraphrase): "some people can't play D&D without DDI". While this statement can be proven true by producing a single instance of such a player (or DM), it can't be proven false at all. The non-existance of such a player would require you to know every player and ask them.
Now such a player has become known: Jharii. Unless Jharii is a liar with his pants on fire, Lokiare's statement is proven true.
The number of such players might be debatable, but this number is irrelevant as long as we know there's at least one.
And really, is it that far-fetched that players in his situation exist? DDI is supposed to be a facilitator for playing D&D. It is reasonable to assume that some players and DMs, especially among those who always used digital tools in their RPGs, only considered playing 4e because of DDI. Some of these, dissatisfied and disappointed at the seemingly uncontrolled dive DDI has taken these past 6 months, might just throw the towel and say: "to hell with that, we'll just play something that's complete with just one rulebook".
However, I do agree with you that ragequitting D&D just because WotC's practices have been despicable lately, even if the game is still enjoyable with the current material, is irrational. Or, as a statement, futile.
lokiare's statement is based off a false premise. D&D can always be played without DDI. Some people may want DDI, want the convenience such digital helpers can provide, and can choose to not play D&D because they don't have a subscription, but that is not the same as saying some people are incapable of playing D&D without DDI.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
Dude, thats insane bro. After all the defintion of sanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results. Or is it the other way around? If you just play harder, it will be more fun. And stop hanging out with lame quiters. People that stop doing things that they don't like are un-american. People just need to work hard and quit complaining, and keep sending their money to the approriate authorities.
Finally! You get it now. ;)
I'm glad you took that with good humor, when I re-read I thought I sounded like a prick.
. I think the "ragequitters" are more than entitled to some last words. As long as they are really last words. But I think most the posts I've been seeing from the "quiters" (slightly less derogatory than the "rage quiters") have been reasonable in their desire to see another kind of DnD, or a different path for the DnD than the current one.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
Dude, thats insane bro. After all the defintion of sanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results. Or is it the other way around? If you just play harder, it will be more fun. And stop hanging out with lame quiters. People that stop doing things that they don't like are un-american. People just need to work hard and quit complaining, and keep sending their money to the approriate authorities.
Finally! You get it now. ;)
I'm glad you took that with good humor, when I re-read I thought I sounded like a prick.
True, people should express what their issues are when they stop playing a game. And admittedly rjdafoe does seem sincere and more generous in his response to me than mine to him, even if he and I still disagree with his reasoning.
lokiare's statement is based off a false premise. D&D can always be played without DDI. Some people may want DDI, want the convenience such digital helpers can provide, and can choose to not play D&D because they don't have a subscription, but that is not the same as saying some people are incapable of playing D&D without DDI.
D&D can always be played without DDI, but not by people who don't have the extra time to prepare their games without it. It is not for you to decide that people always have enough time. Their circumstances are their own.
The proposition that some people would have time, but prefer to use DDI or not play at all is independent from Lokiare's statement. True or not, it doesn't make Lokiare's false.
First of all, my group is still playing 4E.
But I understand why the other group moved on. They do not agree with the direction it is going and choose the play an alternative game rather than support something they do not like.
After all, now that there is a game form another company that is basically D&D, there are choices when you do not agree with the company.
And yes - the direction of a game can influence your decision to play that game. There are other companies that they believe are making better content and treat their customers the way they want to be treated.
You can throw out all the it is rolepalying all you want, but if you do not like what has become of the rules, or the tools that are there to help you deal with those rules, it may become less fun for people. I am sorry you don't see that other people have different priorities than you. There are people that stop supporting a company and using their products when they do not agree with that company.
Dude, thats insane bro. After all the defintion of sanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results. Or is it the other way around? If you just play harder, it will be more fun. And stop hanging out with lame quiters. People that stop doing things that they don't like are un-american. People just need to work hard and quit complaining, and keep sending their money to the approriate authorities.
Finally! You get it now. ;)
I'm glad you took that with good humor, when I re-read I thought I sounded like a prick.
True, people should express what their issues are when they stop playing a game. And admittedly rjdafoe does seem sincere and more generous in his response to me than mine to him, even if he and I still disagree with his reasoning.
Now I feel all warm and fuzzy.
lokiare's statement is based off a false premise. D&D can always be played without DDI. Some people may want DDI, want the convenience such digital helpers can provide, and can choose to not play D&D because they don't have a subscription, but that is not the same as saying some people are incapable of playing D&D without DDI.
D&D can always be played without DDI, but not by people who don't have the extra time to prepare their games without it. It is not for you to decide that people always have enough time. Their circumstances are their own.
The proposition that some people would have time, but prefer to use DDI or not play at all is independent from Lokiare's statement. True or not, it doesn't make Lokiare's false.
No, some people may not have the time to play their preferred style of 4E (all the available options), but anyone can play a basic version of the game using just enough material to match time constraints. This may only include the first PHB (you don't even need the MM to play D&D), or just use 2 or 3 classes and that's it.
The inherent flaw in lokiare's initial post is the assumption that, to play D&D one must have access to everything ever published, which, if true, would be a problem with time management. But anyone can play 4E with the barest of options, so much so the prep time could shrink to minutes, or even on-the-fly gaming. That's still playing D&D without the need for DDI.
No, some people may not have the time to play their preferred style of 4E (all the available options), but anyone can play a basic version of the game using just enough material to match time constraints. This may only include the first PHB (you don't even need the MM to play D&D), or just use 2 or 3 classes and that's it.
The inherent flaw in lokiare's initial post is the assumption that, to play D&D one must have access to everything ever published, which, if true, would be a problem with time management. But anyone can play 4E with the barest of options, so much so the prep time could shrink to minutes, or even on-the-fly gaming. That's still playing D&D without the need for DDI.
Ah, now that makes more sense. Some people can't play the game to their satisfaction without DDI. When presented like that, desires do come into play.
Wouldn't you say it doesn't change the end result, though? It may be due to desires, choices, out of control constraints, or a combination of these, but the sorry state of DDI may still be a contributing reason why some people no longer enjoy their time playing D&D and decide to quit. These people would not be you, nor me, but I think their beef is legitimate.
No, some people may not have the time to play their preferred style of 4E (all the available options), but anyone can play a basic version of the game using just enough material to match time constraints. This may only include the first PHB (you don't even need the MM to play D&D), or just use 2 or 3 classes and that's it.
The inherent flaw in lokiare's initial post is the assumption that, to play D&D one must have access to everything ever published, which, if true, would be a problem with time management. But anyone can play 4E with the barest of options, so much so the prep time could shrink to minutes, or even on-the-fly gaming. That's still playing D&D without the need for DDI.
Ah, now that makes more sense. Some people can't play the game to their satisfaction without DDI. When presented like that, desires do come into play.
Wouldn't you say it doesn't change the end result, though? It may be due to desires, choices, out of control constraints, or a combination of these, but the sorry state of DDI may still be a contributing reason why some people no longer enjoy their time playing D&D and decide to quit. These people would not be you, nor me, but I think their beef is legitimate.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. As I alluded to at some point during all this, my response to lokiare was just a rhetorical quibble with his framing of the argument and it had little practical, real world impact. Other people then started arguing and it got far more attention than it ever needed.
Lathrin, if I may? Here is the where your logic is flawed:
Lokiare said (I paraphrase): "some people can't play D&D without DDI". While this statement can be proven true by producing a single instance of such a player (or DM), it can't be proven false at all. The non-existance of such a player would require you to know every player and ask them.
Now such a player has become known: Jharii. Unless Jharii is a liar with his pants on fire, Lokiare's statement is proven true.
The number of such players might be debatable, but this number is irrelevant as long as we know there's at least one.
And really, is it that far-fetched that players in his situation exist? DDI is supposed to be a facilitator for playing D&D. It is reasonable to assume that some players and DMs, especially among those who always used digital tools in their RPGs, only considered playing 4e because of DDI. Some of these, dissatisfied and disappointed at the seemingly uncontrolled dive DDI has taken these past 6 months, might just throw the towel and say: "to hell with that, we'll just play something that's complete with just one rulebook".
However, I do agree with you that ragequitting D&D just because WotC's practices have been despicable lately, even if the game is still enjoyable with the current material, is irrational. Or, as a statement, futile.
I never stated that I need DDI. I stated that I understand how someone could need DDI, just as someone else may need the physical books.
I said I need digital assistance to be able to manage my campaign efficiently, granting me the necessary time needed. That digital assistance does not come from DDI, although I wish it would, particularly because I should get the best D&D material and utilities from the source (Wizards) itself.
I never stated that I need DDI. I stated that I understand how someone could need DDI, just as someone else may need the physical books.
I said I need digital assistance to be able to manage my campaign efficiently, granting me the necessary time needed. That digital assistance does not come from DDI, although I wish it would, particularly because I should get the best D&D material and utilities from the source (Wizards) itself.
Quite right, you did not. Apologies for speaking for you.