WOTC said we'd have a map maker, character viewer, and virtual table top. Those never saw the light of day. Now WOTC say they are coming out with web based tools. Just something to think about.
Not knowing what the web based tools are, they could be part of the aforementioned "map maker, character viewer, [or] virtual table top." Or they could be something I could actually want to use (given we have several tile-based map makers).
Not knowing what it is I don't feel any reason to be negative. Yet.
You will either have to be subscribed to use it, or not use the tools at all.
It's WotC's money grab.
I have no doubt that they will produce web based character builder and monster builder. For one, it will require people to subscribe to use them. so there will be no subscribe for a month, get the update, then wait three or four months to subscribe again for another update.
You will either have to be subscribed to use it, or not use the tools at all.
It's WotC's money grab.
If that is the case...they're supremely over-confident in their ability to wring money out of the end-user.
4.0 is NOT an MMO. I can understand some dimwit executive's desire to want monthly payments from the user-base and I can also understand some dimwit executive's misconceived idea that 4.0 is just like an MMO.
But...that dimwit executive is wrong.
If that really does occur, it will absolutely kill 4.0 D&D in my group as well as 4.0 in my local gaming shop.
Long term, it would be disastrous for 4.0.
Curse you wotc for making us weak and soft with the cb, let us re call our roots and return to the path of pen and paper... Ummm whats this pink rubbery thing on the end of this stick?
If you begin to panic, you can chew on the pink rubbery part and it will calm you. I believe they call it an "Easer".
Curse you wotc for making us weak and soft with the cb, let us re call our roots and return to the path of pen and paper... Ummm whats this pink rubbery thing on the end of this stick?
If you begin to panic, you can chew on the pink rubbery part and it will calm you. I believe they call it an "Easer".
Mmmm, Mmmm, Chewey!
I thought they were to be used if you ran out of goblin minis ("we'll just call this one "Mr. Pink"").
Well, if it makes any of you feel better, based on their track record to date, We aren't seeing these things for a very, veeeeeerrrrrrry long time if at all.
Maybe so, but it might also mean even less support for the CB. I have a job and a family. The CB and Monster Builder have been invaluable when it comes to saving time. My entire group stopped playing 3.0 and 3.5 because we didn't have the time to invest in scaling monsters, creating characters, etc...
They have bungled this so much that I'm pretty much soured on the entire 4th edition "thing" now and I was a very, very big champion for 4.0.
It's interesting how WotC and their butchering of 4.0 might become a cautionary tale for companies supporting rpgs in the future.
Who know? Maybe WotC will come back strong in November...but I'm not exactly hopeful. Infact I plan on continuing to ask for refunds until my subscription runs out in January and then moving on. I don't really feel like they deserve my money any longer.
Well, if it makes any of you feel better, based on their track record to date, We aren't seeing these things for a very, veeeeeerrrrrrry long time if at all.
Maybe so, but it might also mean even less support for the CB. I have a job and a family. The CB and Monster Builder have been invaluable when it comes to saving time. My entire group stopped playing 3.0 and 3.5 because we didn't have the time to invest in scaling monsters, creating characters, etc...
They have bungled this so much that I'm pretty much soured on the entire 4th edition "thing" now and I was a very, very big champion for 4.0.
It's interesting how WotC and their butchering of 4.0 might become a cautionary tale for companies supporting rpgs in the future.
Who know? Maybe WotC will come back strong in November...but I'm not exactly hopeful. Infact I plan on continuing to ask for refunds until my subscription runs out in January and then moving on. I don't really feel like they deserve my money any longer.
Preaching to the choir, buddy.
My DM has basically decided due to the way WOTC handled things with this update situation to cancel his Dark Sun campaign completely.
For shame. Well if you'd like you can join my DS group. I wont penalize you for what WotC does
I think the move to online tools is to try to get more people to subscribe more of the time. And I think it will work. Dnd gamers have become utterly dependant on the character builder. I was going to launch a Dark Sun game, and when the update got delayed I suggested that we just build charctesr by hand, on paper with the books, the way we did for the 25 or 30 years before the character builder came out. They looked at me like I had suggested that they pound a bag of hot nails up their backsides. People will subscribe, and I don't find the argument that "we dont have internet access during the game" to be that compelling. You use the character builder and monster builder before the game for the most part. Its a prep time tool, not a game time tool. People will subscribe, becuase they cant seem to play the bloody game without the thing anymore.
I think you're right on all counts.
I think the move to online tools is to try to get more people to subscribe more of the time. And I think it will work. Dnd gamers have become utterly dependant on the character builder. I was going to launch a Dark Sun game, and when the update got delayed I suggested that we just build charctesr by hand, on paper with the books, the way we did for the 25 or 30 years before the character builder came out. They looked at me like I had suggested that they pound a bag of hot nails up their backsides. People will subscribe, and I don't find the argument that "we dont have internet access during the game" to be that compelling. You use the character builder and monster builder before the game for the most part. Its a prep time tool, not a game time tool. People will subscribe, becuase they cant seem to play the bloody game without the thing anymore.
Sad but true... I had a similar situation in my group, my computer was down and I was the only one with the tools. I told everyone to take some time to look through the books (I own most of them) and pick new powers. They waited until I got it back up and running. I do see the problem in it being online only, some of my group depends on the DM for the tools and I don't invite everyone with a character to build to my house, plus our local game store does not have wifi. As a DM, this will just make it harder to get the game running quickly. With that said, I am looking forward to everyone having to pour over the books to create a character, I think creating one through the CB is fun and easy, but it loses some of the "creation" aspect (realize, personal feelings are being stated, not what I feel to be fact). I love the CB, but I use it more to double check my math or check my options from books I may not own yet. But if I decide not to follow them online only, it won't mean the end of my game, just means I'll have to teach people how to open a book. I'm glad there's others who feel the same way.
I have no doubt that they will produce web based character builder and monster builder. For one, it will require people to subscribe to use them. so there will be no subscribe for a month, get the update, then wait three or four months to subscribe again for another update.
You will either have to be subscribed to use it, or not use the tools at all.
It's WotC's money grab.
If that is the case...they're supremely over-confident in their ability to wring money out of the end-user.
4.0 is NOT an MMO. I can understand some dimwit executive's desire to want monthly payments from the user-base and I can also understand some dimwit executive's misconceived idea that 4.0 is just like an MMO.
But...that dimwit executive is wrong.
If that really does occur, it will absolutely kill 4.0 D&D in my group as well as 4.0 in my local gaming shop.
Long term, it would be disastrous for 4.0.
You can't seriously call WOTC's subscription model a money grab. As it stands you can buy one month of character builder and get information from a dozen books without having to buy those books. Honestly how is a company supposed to make money, especially if that one subscription is used by 5 people?
Web based tools enforcing a monthly subscription is the only way to go to ensure that customers are paying for a fair share of the materials. This will also stop pirating of the updates as well.
If you can't afford 8 bucks a month to support a hobby you spend many hours playing then perhaps you need to prioritize.
I have no doubt that they will produce web based character builder and monster builder. For one, it will require people to subscribe to use them. so there will be no subscribe for a month, get the update, then wait three or four months to subscribe again for another update.
You will either have to be subscribed to use it, or not use the tools at all.
It's WotC's money grab.
If that is the case...they're supremely over-confident in their ability to wring money out of the end-user.
4.0 is NOT an MMO. I can understand some dimwit executive's desire to want monthly payments from the user-base and I can also understand some dimwit executive's misconceived idea that 4.0 is just like an MMO.
But...that dimwit executive is wrong.
If that really does occur, it will absolutely kill 4.0 D&D in my group as well as 4.0 in my local gaming shop.
Long term, it would be disastrous for 4.0.
You can't seriously call WOTC's subscription model a money grab. As it stands you can buy one month of character builder and get information from a dozen books without having to buy those books. Honestly how is a company supposed to make money, especially if that one subscription is used by 5 people?
Web based tools enforcing a monthly subscription is the only way to go to ensure that customers are paying for a fair share of the materials. This will also stop pirating of the updates as well.
If you can't afford 8 bucks a month to support a hobby you spend many hours playing then perhaps you need to prioritize.
I've been a steady DDI subscriber since it began and over time, I've seen the content and quality of the content diminish. I did not call their current subscription system a money-grab. Switching to an online model is most certainly a money-grab.
Rather than create compelling and consistent content in order to encourage people to subscribe, they choose to hold the CB and MB hostage and continue their current method of bungling.
I have zero line of sight to how many people are illegally or perhaps unfairly accessing DDI without paying for it. However you seem to suggest it's rampant and somehow WotC is without fault here. I didn't say I can't afford $8 a month. What I question is whether the content WotC is currently generating will justify $8 a month and whether or not I want to pay for a RPG tool that I can only use when online.
You need to drink less koolaid and try breathing more.
[
I have zero line of sight to how many people are illegally or perhaps unfairly accessing DDI without paying for it. However you seem to suggest it's rampant and somehow WotC is without fault here. I didn't say I can't afford $8 a month. What I question is whether the content WotC is currently generating will justify $8 a month and whether or not I want to pay for a RPG tool that I can only use when online.
Just to put some numbers into this debate...
DDI currently has around 42,000 paid subscribers. Hasbro/WoTC has consistenly said at trade presentations that there are 1 million active D&D players around the world with around half currently playing 4e for a total of 500,000 potential customers for the DDI product. That means there are around 458,000 potential NEW customers for DDI.
I've been playing 4e since release and met MANY different players and DM's. Hundreds. In that time, I've met maybe 2 or 3 people who build their characters by hand (PnP), everyone else uses the CB. It is openly said that gaming groups are sharing one subscription and in a great many cases people are using pirated (usually from torrents) versions of the CB.
IF wizards can get their web-tools system working properly, I predict it will be a huge financial success. Many of those 458,000 players will be willing to subscribe to keep using the CB. To use a number off the top of my head, lets assume that 50% of the 500,000 players subscribe. At $8 a month per sub, that's $2 million per month for WoTC compared to $336,000 per month under the current model.
Is this a cash grab? or is it just WoTC finally getting what it's due by foiling those who cheat the system?
I know I can log into the Compendium on two laptops at the same time cause I tried it and it works. I would assume the same model will be continued with other tools. So I would assume a D&D group of 6 people (assuming standard size) would still be able to share the account.
Granted they would have to subscribe permanently rather than the slash and dash approach of now, but they wouldn't need an account each.
I think.
WOTC said we'd have a map maker, character viewer, and virtual table top. Those never saw the light of day. Now WOTC say they are coming out with web based tools. Just something to think about.
Not knowing what the web based tools are, they could be part of the aforementioned "map maker, character viewer, [or] virtual table top." Or they could be something I could actually want to use (given we have several tile-based map makers).
Not knowing what it is I don't feel any reason to be negative. Yet.
I agree completely. I (still) have enough faith in the team at WotC to see what they have in store - they have said from time to time that they were still working on those other tools.
My DM has basically decided due to the way WOTC handled things with this update situation to cancel his Dark Sun campaign completely. WOTC had over two months to post an update to char builder and all we got was psionic power and vague mentions of web based tools with no other information. One of my sources informed me that there would be no more updates to char builder either and that the october one was the last one we'd be getting. No dark sun or essentials material at all. The DM I game with is pissed and likely to stop running 4.0 completely if they do go to web based tools since our gaming location has no internet access, online tools are useless to the group when we actually play.
For me it has nothing to do with internet availability at the gaming table or being "forced" to subscribe every month (which I currently do anyway) if they move the CB and MB online. It has to do with corporate continuity.
Look at what happened when WotC decided to dump 3.5 (and I use the word "dump" deliberately) and make D&D4E. Remember a thing called "E-Tools"? Now imagine that the only character builder tool you have - and have come to rely upon heavily - is online and web-based. And 5E comes along.
That's the scenario I am not prepared to open myself up to. If the new web tools do turn out to be the CB I'll just dump further "additions" and use the CB I have. That is why I happily bought a non-web-based CB; because the company support may go away, but my copy won't.
Assuming they make it mobile friendly, it won't even be that restrictive to gaming groups. You may not have regular web access at your table, but how many tables don't have at least one guy with an iPhone?
[
I have zero line of sight to how many people are illegally or perhaps unfairly accessing DDI without paying for it. However you seem to suggest it's rampant and somehow WotC is without fault here. I didn't say I can't afford $8 a month. What I question is whether the content WotC is currently generating will justify $8 a month and whether or not I want to pay for a RPG tool that I can only use when online.
Just to put some numbers into this debate...
DDI currently has around 42,000 paid subscribers. Hasbro/WoTC has consistenly said at trade presentations that there are 1 million active D&D players around the world with around half currently playing 4e for a total of 500,000 potential customers for the DDI product. That means there are around 458,000 potential NEW customers for DDI.
I've been playing 4e since release and met MANY different players and DM's. Hundreds. In that time, I've met maybe 2 or 3 people who build their characters by hand (PnP), everyone else uses the CB. It is openly said that gaming groups are sharing one subscription and in a great many cases people are using pirated (usually from torrents) versions of the CB.
IF wizards can get their web-tools system working properly, I predict it will be a huge financial success. Many of those 458,000 players will be willing to subscribe to keep using the CB. To use a number off the top of my head, lets assume that 50% of the 500,000 players subscribe. At $8 a month per sub, that's $2 million per month for WoTC compared to $336,000 per month under the current model.
Is this a cash grab? or is it just WoTC finally getting what it's due by foiling those who cheat the system?
I know that when people come over to my house to play, they use my Character Builder and my subscription to build their characters.
I remember being in my teens and all of us pooling our money together to buy all the Second Edition books when they came out.
I remember organizing christmas wish lists between my friends and myself so that Scott would get the Basic, Les would get Expert, Chris would get Advanced and I would get Immortal.
It seems to me that D&D WAS a culture of "sharing". We shared all our books. We'd give each other **** over taking too long with the PHBs when leveling up characters because we only had two to be used by six players. I don't share my DDI...I need my CB and MB so I don't want to risk getting locked out but I do see how a "play group" would only have one account and share it. I can't say I'm particularly in disagreement with those people.
I'm not naieve. I recognize that people are skeevy and cheating the system. I really don't know how comfortable I am with swallowing whatever stats are fed to me by WotC. Surprise...the numbers they present completely justify the course of action they plan on taking.
I'm not saying there's a conspiracy. I'm just saying that 100% of the time, you can rely on a company to provide statistics and reports that 100% justify the course of action they plan to take.
At the end of the day...holy ****...it would be nice if WotC said, "Okay, here's what we'd like to do over the next six to twelve months."
I; as well as many others would like to know how they may OR may not screw up a beloved hobby. If they would just tell us SOMETHING.
They told us that they would tell us something soon.
That was four months ago. And three months ago, and last month, and two weeks ago, and last week.
So I'm positave that soon we will be told that we will know something soon. Possibly next week.
They have told us something.
They told us that they would tell us something soon.
That was four months ago. And three months ago, and last month, and two weeks ago, and last week.
So I'm positave that soon we will be told that we will know something soon. Possibly next week.
Exactly!
They have told us something.
They told us that they would tell us something soon.
That was four months ago. And three months ago, and last month, and two weeks ago, and last week.
So I'm positave that soon we will be told that we will know something soon. Possibly next week.
That might have been LoLtastic two months ago...emphasis on "might".
Unless you were being cynical at which point it's a waste because I believe less and less that they actually read these boards.
Unless you were being cynical at which point it's a waste because I believe less and less that they actually read these boards.
They definitely read them... I don't know what they do with what they read, but they read them.
But what should they do?
I assume that the DDI programmers currently work like hell and try to make the impossible happen.
They fix tons of bugs but for each fixed bugs two new appear.
The person who had the great idea to create that web based tool is looking for someone to blame for this mistake - besides himself of course.
They all know that if they won't make it this will be the end of DDI (at least as we know it)
What should they say?
We have given our best but it wasn't enough?
Software development usually fails because some people want to much and it should have been done days before they even know that they want it to be done.
Making such a bad decision in such a crucial time (after all that PR hype for essentials) can't be corrected by anything they say. I am pretty sure that more communication can make things only worse than they are.
There are only two things that can save the day:
1.) Releasing the Character Builder with Dark Sun & Essentials
2.) Release working web tools (which include all the Char Builder stuff plus Dark Sun & Essentials)
In the current situation they could say what they want, nobody would believe them...
ok, if they would tell us that DDI went the way of the Dodo we would, of course ;)
That is who I blame. The higher ups.
For me it has nothing to do with internet availability at the gaming table or being "forced" to subscribe every month (which I currently do anyway) if they move the CB and MB online. It has to do with corporate continuity.
Look at what happened when WotC decided to dump 3.5 (and I use the word "dump" deliberately) and make D&D4E. Remember a thing called "E-Tools"? Now imagine that the only character builder tool you have - and have come to rely upon heavily - is online and web-based. And 5E comes along.
That's the scenario I am not prepared to open myself up to. If the new web tools do turn out to be the CB I'll just dump further "additions" and use the CB I have. That is why I happily bought a non-web-based CB; because the company support may go away, but my copy won't.
This. That was why I really liked the CB being offline as 4e has been my favourite edition to date and if I don't like the eventual 5e, I would still like to have the ability to use the program I've paid for, even if they decide to change the product they're offering.
Unless you were being cynical at which point it's a waste because I believe less and less that they actually read these boards.
But what should they do?
All of your logic is sound and your points, valid but that question you asked is the most important part.
Tell.
The.
Truth.
"hey guys, we have no intention of releasing Dark Sun and Essentials onto the offline CB. We want to really hang that carrot from the stick when it comes to adoption of our online tools and if you WANT a CB that has Dark Sun and Essentials, well when the online tools come out, you'll find them there."
I'm not saying the above IS the truth. It COULD be the truth but WotC just loves sitting back and watching us go batshit crazy and chew our own limbs off as we speculate like madmen.
Like I keep repeating, WotC does not care. They never have and they never will.
Every single thing that WotC has done digitally for D&D has failed. They just simply do not care enuf to give it the attention it deserves.
The lack of any information coming from anywhere is a sure sign that DDI is over and done with. No company in their right mind would alienate so many customers for no good reason what so ever unless it was to conceal bad news.
For too long we have been strung along, pulled in by the past promises of great things to come, all the while being sucked dry of any money we were willing to part with. It seems they were content to do the bare minimum on DDI to placate us. but now that time has gone by we see the truth. DDI is a sham.
Not one single employee will get on these boards and speak the truth to the customers and consumers. They refuse to even grace us long enuf to lie to us. They just don't give a crap.
If you truly believe they don't care, why bother to post? If I feel a company doesn't care I simply stop buying things from them and don't hold this little nugget of hatred and rage against them. I simply don't care if they don't care.
Do you honestly believe you are helping them decide to post anything with that attitude? Or that you swaying people with an obvious vitriol filled rant like you post so often?
Tell.
The.
Truth.
Well, the truth hurts and they don't want to hurt us.
You see, they do care...
Sorry, couldn't resist^^
I think the move to online tools is to try to get more people to subscribe more of the time. And I think it will work. Dnd gamers have become utterly dependant on the character builder. I was going to launch a Dark Sun game, and when the update got delayed I suggested that we just build charctesr by hand, on paper with the books, the way we did for the 25 or 30 years before the character builder came out. They looked at me like I had suggested that they pound a bag of hot nails up their backsides. People will subscribe, and I don't find the argument that "we dont have internet access during the game" to be that compelling. You use the character builder and monster builder before the game for the most part. Its a prep time tool, not a game time tool. People will subscribe, becuase they cant seem to play the bloody game without the thing anymore.
I think you're right on all counts.
Indeed. It's the model they should have used from the beginning, but perhaps didn't just to get people hooked on the tools. Regardless though, most people will subscribe and they will make more money because of it.
It won't happen.
Like I keep repeating, WotC does not care. They never have and they never will.
Every single thing that WotC has done digitally for D&D has failed. They just simply do not care enuf to give it the attention it deserves.
The lack of any information coming from anywhere is a sure sign that DDI is over and done with. No company in their right mind would alienate so many customers for no good reason what so ever unless it was to conceal bad news.
For too long we have been strung along, pulled in by the past promises of great things to come, all the while being sucked dry of any money we were willing to part with. It seems they were content to do the bare minimum on DDI to placate us. but now that time has gone by we see the truth. DDI is a sham.
Not one single employee will get on these boards and speak the truth to the customers and consumers. They refuse to even grace us long enuf to lie to us. They just don't give a crap.
Of course! It makes sense now. They don't want our money! By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth how could I have not see this earlier? They want to throw away money and not recoup any. They don't want people to buy their products. It's fiendishly brilliant. Thanks Sherlock. /sarcasm
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You really haven't counted, you are only pulling numbers from your behind.
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You've seen the "unhappy with DDI" thread right?? and the long list of replies in that thread detailing what WotC is doing wrong, and what they need to fix? Now keep in mind that this list represts people who are vocal on these boards. There are other boards where the list is longer. Not all the unhappy players post in that thread, most just cancel their accounts and never look back.
And stop pulling numbers from your wide crack.
Of course! It makes sense now. They don't want our money! By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth how could I have not see this earlier? They want to throw away money and not recoup any. They don't want people to buy their products. It's fiendishly brilliant. Thanks Sherlock. /sarcasm
They sure aren't acting as if they want our money. They certainly aren't giving us a compelling reason to give it to them. Y'know, by giving us updates to the CB in a reasonable time frame, putting halfway decent articles in the mags, putting in new tools, putting out tools that were originally announced long ago, that kind of thing.
so will see
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
The 'unhappy with DDI' thread is closing in on 100 entries in the week it has been around. And there are several posters, in that thread and elsewhere, raising concerns despite being some of WotC's biggest defenders. I think that is definitely a sign that the complaints are getting serious.
Unlike some, I don't expect this position to go on indefinitely - I think WotC will get caught up with the issues, have useful info for customers, and be able to start moving forward again. I think the majority of the people who have turned off auto-renew will return to renewal once they see things getting back on track.
But, while I'm hopeful that is what will happen, it is certainly true that there isn't any real proof of it. And the biggest thing that could help, right now, is communication. Someone addressing these issues. Because right now, yes, a lot of people are growing concerned and expressing those concerns openly. Many others are asking for refunds, now two months in a row, and that lost profit is absolutely going to hit WotC's bottom line. And, hopefully, will convince them to fix the issues, rather than convince them to shut the entire program down.
But trying to say that there is no problem at all and no one actually complaining? That just seems willful disbelief, and doesn't do anyone any good at all.
Curse you wotc for making us weak and soft with the cb, let us re call our roots and return to the path of pen and paper... Ummm whats this pink rubbery thing on the end of this stick?
The thing is, I paid DDI for use of the Character Builder. So yeah, I'll go back to pencil and paper but I am not paying my subscription anymore. Everyone who is unhappy with the service should do the same. It's the only way we will get WotC to talk to us. We have to hit them in the pocketbook.
Curse you wotc for making us weak and soft with the cb, let us re call our roots and return to the path of pen and paper... Ummm whats this pink rubbery thing on the end of this stick?
The thing is, I paid DDI for use of the Character Builder. So yeah, I'll go back to pencil and paper but I am not paying my subscription anymore. Everyone who is unhappy with the service should do the same. It's the only way we will get WotC to talk to us. We have to hit them in the pocketbook.
It's not going to matter. Hitting them in the pocketbook will only make them fire more employees. This will set them farther back and soon end DDI all together. There will be no announcement, they will just close up shop one day and not say a word.
It's not going to matter. Hitting them in the pocketbook will only make them fire more employees. This will set them farther back and soon end DDI all together. There will be no announcement, they will just close up shop one day and not say a word.
Unfortunately this is indeed the most likely outcome. And the main reason is that they wanted more of our money. That's why some person wanted to create a web based version of the CB (making the CB only usable with a running subscription, removing the illegal option to use a torrent etc.)
Obviously this person had not the slightest idea of the pitfalls and complexities that come with the development of Web 2.0+ Applications.
I would guess to develop a working web based character builder with a functionality that comes close to the existing fat client app will take a team of 3 programmers (plus overhead, i.e. managers, designers etc.) at least 2 years.
I really don't know what the "producer" does, but that's a different matter.
Yeah, it is possible to create a mock up with a crappy interface in one or two months, but then you can pick any fan made app you want.
They want do provide us with a quality product, they completely underestimated the time to create it (again), they failed.
I would say the only chance they have is to scrap this web based tool idea, and create a CB that needs a login and maybe continously loads some code/data from the net so you are sure that a login is required, and it's not too easy to hack it.
However, if they are not humble enough to admit their mistake, I am afraid we - and they - are screwed.
It would require a minor miracle to get a web based app working within the next three months, I guess. I don't think they started to work on the web based tools more than one year ago.
P.S.: I would be more than happy if I am wrong. Unfortunately, with my little experience, I learned to smell these problems :P
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You really haven't counted, you are only pulling numbers from your behind.
- D&D Insider
- 41283 Members
Replies on Sijal threads 88
From truly unique indviduals who Might actually be members of Insider 70ish. Of those that are truly angry enough to stop subscribing far less than that
This fabled 'number' on other threads on other forums don't matter. The reality is, even if you take EVERY member from Enworld out of insider, you still have far less than WotC will care about. The vocal minority should never dictate the actions of a company, and anyone who truly believes that internet forums are good basis for their customers, is an idiot who has no business running a business.
This fabled 'number' on other threads on other forums don't matter. The reality is, even if you take EVERY member from Enworld out of insider, you still have far less than WotC will care about. The vocal minority should never dictate the actions of a company, and anyone who truly believes that internet forums are good basis for their customers, is an idiot who has no business running a business.
Yes, the people in these forums are a small fraction of the overall whole. But I think it a sign that when the vast majority of the posters suddenly switch positions from supporting DDI to being unsure over it, that might mean the same thing is happen on a larger scale elsewhere.
Look, I tend to agree with the principle that a company shouldn't instinctively let itself be led by a handful of complaints. But that doesn't mean that concerns raised online are inherently meaningless. Anyone who disregards any data about their customer feedback and satisfaction is, shall we say, someone "who has no business running a business".
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You really haven't counted, you are only pulling numbers from your behind.
- D&D Insider
- 41283 Members
Replies on Sijal threads 88
From truly unique indviduals who Might actually be members of Insider 70ish. Of those that are truly angry enough to stop subscribing far less than that
This fabled 'number' on other threads on other forums don't matter. The reality is, even if you take EVERY member from Enworld out of insider, you still have far less than WotC will care about. The vocal minority should never dictate the actions of a company, and anyone who truly believes that internet forums are good basis for their customers, is an idiot who has no business running a business.
Sorry, but IMHO there are a few of flaws in these numbers and your conclusions. Firstly, as I have posted in another thread, there are many other threads that dissatisfied customers are posting on here. Some may not have posted on Sijal's thread as they have already voiced their annoyance elsewere (I nearly didn't for that reason).
Secondly, these boards have to be viewed as a reasonable indication of the feelings of the community else they wouldn't be here. We know that WotC people at least get reports of what goes on here so the number of threads voicing dissatisfaction should mean something to somebody in the company. I agree that it's not the be all and end all but they should be paying attention to it.
Third, there are a number of people here (myself included) with relatively low post counts. Now I can't speak for others but for my part I generally post occasionally on the D&D forums on issues that I have something to say on or care about (the Greyhawk setting falls into both categories for me for example). In the last few weeks, I have posted here on at least a weekly basis and often on a daily (or more than that) basis because these screw ups have got me, a previously satisfied customer, annoyed. I suspect that I am not the only one who is in this category.
Finally, there are a number of posts that are relating anecdotes of wider dissatisfaction with the game and with WotC. People are reporting unhappy or departing players at Encounters and LFR sessions. Regardless of the numbers, this is bad for the game and therefore bad for business.
I would turn your final sentence on its head. Anyone who doesn't pay attention to the free and easy customer feedback that these forums provide is an idiot who has no business running a business.
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You really haven't counted, you are only pulling numbers from your behind.
- D&D Insider
- 41283 Members
Replies on Sijal threads 88
From truly unique indviduals who Might actually be members of Insider 70ish. Of those that are truly angry enough to stop subscribing far less than that
This fabled 'number' on other threads on other forums don't matter. The reality is, even if you take EVERY member from Enworld out of insider, you still have far less than WotC will care about. The vocal minority should never dictate the actions of a company, and anyone who truly believes that internet forums are good basis for their customers, is an idiot who has no business running a business.
For what it's worth, neither I nor the other in my two play groups have posted in Sijal's thread, so add ten to that number. We are all pissed at the current situation.
Your right, they don't want our money, if they did, they would see that alot of their customer base for DDI is very upset at the way they are being treated and work to rectify that situation. Instead, they are ignoring us.
Of the forty odd thousand members of DDI There are about dozen who have complained on the forums. I somehow don't think you can construe this in any way as a 'a lot'.
You really haven't counted, you are only pulling numbers from your behind.
- D&D Insider
- 41283 Members
Replies on Sijal threads 88
From truly unique indviduals who Might actually be members of Insider 70ish. Of those that are truly angry enough to stop subscribing far less than that
This fabled 'number' on other threads on other forums don't matter. The reality is, even if you take EVERY member from Enworld out of insider, you still have far less than WotC will care about. The vocal minority should never dictate the actions of a company, and anyone who truly believes that internet forums are good basis for their customers, is an idiot who has no business running a business.
Keep in mind that your fabled number of 41k people who are current members are not all members. It was said in another thread that if you were part of that group before you canceled, you would still be part of that group.
The truth is You don't know the numbers, you have no clue what the numbers are. Your just spouting crap you have no idea about. Why you are defending WotC I have no idea, but to each his own.
I know for a FACT that in my area the FLGS refuses to stock 4e stuff, the Boarders book store does not order standing stock of 4th ed, and neither does the Barns and Noble. You'd be lucky to find a DMG, PHB, and Monster Manual between the two stores without ordering them from the counter.
So.. we are at an impasse. I can make up numbers too if you like.. My thread of 88 people represents the vocal ones of all the people who are unhappy. There are several who will not post. They will simply give up and fall off the chart. They will not complain, they will just dissapear.
Figure 10-15 people per vocal person. Now imagine all those people telling their groups about the bad experience, their other friends and random people at their local FLGS. That now turns into thousands. So now we have thousands of unhappy customers. It gets exponential from there.
See, I can make up numbers too.
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Yes, the people in these forums are a small fraction of the overall whole. But I think it a sign that when the vast majority of the posters suddenly switch positions from supporting DDI to being unsure over it, that might mean the same thing is happen on a larger scale elsewhere.
But see, forums are even worse than letters written if. If you go by the forums, Family Guy, American Dad, Clevland Show, Glee, Simpsons, basically ALL TV shows suck so much that no one watches them, yet when DVDs come out, they are sold out within hours of being put up. Forums have a tendancy (really the internet in general does, but forums specifically) to allow vitriolic comments to be posted without the persons making them actually caring. Couple that with the standard nerd problems of being delayed on anything (I'm serious even Blizzard's forums get flooded within in minutes of a server being down) and the reaction of DDI subscribers is right now meaningless.
Look, I tend to agree with the principle that a company shouldn't instinctively let itself be led by a handful of complaints. But that doesn't mean that concerns raised online are inherently meaningless. Anyone who disregards any data about their customer feedback and satisfaction is, shall we say, someone "who has no business running a business".
Again, I point other creative endeavors who are not solely online (they have an obligation to listen to their forums) have demonstrated over and over again that the forums are a horrible sampling of the population in general.
Figure 10-15 people per vocal person. Now imagine all those people telling their groups about the bad experience, their other friends and random people at their local FLGS. That now turns into thousands. So now we have thousands of unhappy customers. It gets exponential from there.
See, I can make up numbers too.
And you make up numbers that don't support you.
15*88 (which is no where near the number of unique posts in your thread, but even using that. Hell 100, 15*100 1500) = 1500 angry people.
If 1500 people put a DINT in DnD's bottom line, there is MAJOR trouble beyond DDI. Yes they should be concerned about the general attitude of the comments, but they already knew people hated their communication style people online anyway.