Am I alone in this thought?
After The whole September Fiasco with the CB, we were told they were "back on track" with updates. However, yesterday was the first Compendium update since the partial one in October and we might or might not get a CB update, its still up in the air. Even if we DO get one, the mere fact that, at this point in the month, they can't yet be certain even whether we are getting one (much less when) sure doesn't sound like "back on track" to me, especially considering that we used to get them reliably on a certain schedule.
Am I alone in this thought?
You are not alone. Not only that, as I have said elsewhere, their communication hasn't improved at all. I still have to go on a scavenger hunt.
After The whole September Fiasco with the CB, we were told they were "back on track" with updates. However, yesterday was the first Compendium update since the partial one in October and we might or might not get a CB update, its still up in the air. Even if we DO get one, the mere fact that, at this point in the month, they can't yet be certain even whether we are getting one (much less when) sure doesn't sound like "back on track" to me, especially considering that we used to get them reliably on a certain schedule.
Am I alone in this thought?
You are not alone. Not only that, as I have said elsewhere, their communication hasn't improved at all. I still have to go on a scavenger hunt.
I think the amount of communication has improved. The organization of it is what causes the need for scavenger hunts. That definitely needs improvement still.
I think the amount of communication has improved. The organization of it is what causes the need for scavenger hunts. That definitely needs improvement still.
I disagree. If I have to go out to find some information that is posted on a forum, that is not communicating with me. Before the lack of Dark Sun updates, I wasn't a contributer on the forums. I became one because I was searching for word on the updates. That is not communicating with the subscribers. Communicating with a subscriber means sending an e-mail or posting a notification in a known location where a subscriber would go. (Perhaps like a pop-up box when the user signs in or a message on the Tools page as long as it is made clear ahead of time.) Communication means that a user doesn't have to search for information.
That isn't what we've been getting. We've been getting more postings but we've had to look for that information.
its no real mystery where they generally post. the ddi general forums are the best place to look for communiation from wizards. so thats it, now you know
If I have to search for it, it's not communication. If I have to go out of my way and join a forum to get the information, it's not communication with the subscribers. It's communication with the forum people. The subscribers shouldn't have to go through this to find out what is going on. Many might not even have joined the forum. How would they know? How is this communication?
i guess i dont care so much where they communicate, so long as they do communicate. perhaps my bar is set lower than yours
As for the track we are supposed to be back on, i guess we lost traction and were slowly back in motion. Lots of snow fell, and the CB didnt had winter tires on. Like in Montreal and Seatle, taking many by surprise
If I have to search for it, it's not communication.
This is not true by any definition of the word so...
They have just gotten better at making it seem like what they tell us is letting us in on what's going on.
The whole VT was simply because they need beta testers, and what better then to pull from the DDi subscriptions? (Eventually, I mean with priority, heck lets just say "Soon" everyone understands what "soon" means).
The not before we are ready policy hasn't gone away.
Other wise we would be hearing something about all the other campaign management tools we've been waiting to hear something about for over a year and a half.
Looking back, communication is still working on the, when we are ready to tell you.
In my mind they have made a start and are doing much better on short term items. What they haven't seemed to realize yet is that (for example) for a monthly release like a magazine then monthly updates is just fine (content calendar). For their digital studio releases they need a whole new mindset and if they need an example to look at then I pick Blizzard and WoW. That is the model they need to emulate as far as how early they get the community involved and when they make their announcements of upcoming features.
As an aside, let's pretend for a moment that they have another digital tool in the wings that is still under development (I'll make up an encounter builder) and they haven't told us about it yet. Let us further assume that their team says it will take 6 months in development (since we're just making stuff up). At a bare minimum I'd expect to hear about such an offering at about the halfway point (3 months). I'd also expect a beta about a month or so before release (and really a beta helps them more than us).
I know they're just figuring these things out, but I also know that several who work over at WotC play WoW (they have said so) and should be familiar with how they work enough to copy it.
They have just gotten better at making it seem like what they tell us is letting us in on what's going on.
You know Dane, part of digital development is that nothing is certain. You're dealing with peoples "best guess" as to when something will be done/ready. Trevor has announced the goals (somewhat shy of details) and all that remains is whether or not those goals are met. As an example from where I work. My project manager assigns "estimated time" to all our bugs and features. This is his best guess as to how long it will take that item to be completed by one of the programmers here. I've had 1 hour tasks turn into multi-day projects and I've had tasks that were assigned 16 hours take me all of 2 hours to accomplish. Are those outliers? Sure, but those guesses are still made by someone and they are still just that....guesses. I'm sure that some other developers here can back me up on this.
The whole VT was simply because they need beta testers, and what better then to pull from the DDi subscriptions? (Eventually, I mean with priority, heck lets just say "Soon" everyone understands what "soon" means).
And you're shocked by this why? This is good business (look at Blizzard/WoW and how they do betas even for their most recent release - Cataclysm).
The not before we are ready policy hasn't gone away.
I wouldn't expect it to...ever. I think the only difference between us is your expectation of how soon we should hear about something is unrealistic.
Other wise we would be hearing something about all the other campaign management tools we've been waiting to hear something about for over a year and a half.
If your DDI membership is based on something they said 18+ months ago then you have a DDI membership for the wrong reason. Even blizzard didn't announce Cataclysm 18 months out of release. And that is a much larger development project. With the scope of tools we'll get from WotC I wouldn't expect anything more than 3 months pre-release and that is only on new development (for example web CB, MB, or VTT are all separate tools). For ongoing support (such as adding new features to web CB) I expect a month to month schedule because until they know if they made their goal for a given month (or didn't) they can't decide how much new stuff to take on for next month.
They don't actually have to have make a good VT now!
We got the Adventure Tool with blank slots, which we were told would be were other tools would go.
Ok. But then they changed course, again, and decided it all needs to go online so the tools can be intergrated easier and they can protect their property (and the side benefit of no longer paying for a month, and getting all the back from previous updates).
That's fine. But what about other tools? There are very legit questions about the VT, which they aren't answering either.
So no, they haven't really changed.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
If people think that WoTC is being more open, why can't they tell us about other tools we have been waiting for? It's one thing to tell me what you are doing and then come back and say, uh, I failed I won't be able to do that like I thought I would. Sure dissappointed but at least I know what happened.
We got the Adventure Tool with blank slots, which we were told would be were other tools would go.
Ok. But then they changed course, again, and decided it all needs to go online so the tools can be intergrated easier and they can protect their property (and the side benefit of no longer paying for a month, and getting all the back from previous updates).
That's fine. But what about other tools?
Your assertion:
WotC is not telling us about some nebulous tools that "we have been waiting for" therefore they are not being more open.
Your premise is flawed because you have no clue if they are even working on any other projects than the announced ones (web CB, web MB, and VTT). But for the sake of argument let's put forward both cases:
1) WotC IS working on some other tools/projects that have not been announced.
Since their status quo is to announce new stuff on the day of the release then any announcement prior to release puts them in the category of "more open". With the VT in closed beta and a new round of testers about to be invited and the MB announced, but not yet released I'd say that fully qualifies them as "more open".
2) WotC IS NOT working on some other tools/projects.
If this is true then I'd expect silence. In this case no news is no news.
There are very legit questions about the VT, which they aren't answering either.
So no, they haven't really changed.
In the specific case of the VT you can't get much more open than beta testers with no gag order. As for any features that aren't already in the beta my general opinion is....it's only been two freaking weeks. Relax and be patient. When they've made some decisions I'm sure we'll hear about it. If they are stress testing and bug fixing they probably aren't even thinking about new features yet.
If instead what you are suggesting is that they are not being open enough then you need to define what your standard is in unambiguous terms and then tell us how WotC is not meeting that standard. Include specific details about all aspects of your assertion and not just some vague nonsense. Basically if WotC is not meeting your standard then the burden of proof is on you and not us (or WotC for that matter).
They told us that they were going to come out with a suite of tools before the VTT. Suite means more then one. They came out with the Monster Builder.
A year and half later, they are basically rebooting the whole thing, and they have changed directions again.
Ok. But that means I (and many others) am back to waiting even longer for the suite of tools they have been telling us they are working on.
So no, it's not my standards they aren't living up to. It's the fact that for the third time, they have changed plans, but at least the first two times, they were upfront with what their change in plans.
This time, not as upfront. First it was hints of soon about new tools that would suppliment the existing tools. Well...no they replace. And when called on that, it's "It was true, from how we at WoTc were seeing things" This isn't Star Wars.
And then suddenly the VT is announced. Well we certianly hadn't gotten that suite of tools to help make game prep quicker, and easier and to manage our campaign. You know the stuff they have been telling us they are working on for the last year and a half.
And in this case, it's pretty clear it was done to prevent people from leaving DDi. Which they likely would have. Just like they choose to not put Dark Sun/Essentials into the stand alone CB, so if people wanted access to that material for their characters, they would have to start paying each month for DDi.
Before, they really had nothing to lose by telling us they were changing their game plan, because they weren't taking anyone's money.
But now that they are, they aren't being so up front.
kenjoon, I'll make it simple for you.
They told us that they were going to come out with a suite of tools before the VTT. Suite means more then one. They came out with the Monster Builder.
A year and half later, they are basically rebooting the whole thing, and they have changed directions again.
Ok. But that means I (and many others) am back to waiting even longer for the suite of tools they have been telling us they are working on.
Let me tell you the story of a game...it's name was Earthbound 64. One of the launch titles of the N64 back in Sept 96. There were screen shots, a write up about it in Nintendo Power, even a site for it on the Nintendo website. Do you know when it was released? Never. However in Japan in 2006 (10 years!) later a sequel to Earthbound came out for the Nintendo DS. It was no longer 3d, was for a completely different system and according to the creator the story had evolved considerably but hey it was released. And it only took 10 years, better then another story with the same moral I could tell, one entitled Duke Nukem Forever.
The moral of the story is, digital products (and other products even it's just more noticeable in the digital age) are canceled quite often. Eventually you learn to let go or you grow into an old bitter man who never got to meet Mr. Saturn, BOING! in glorious 3d, and in fact never got to play his sequel without hacking it, do to his being to lazy to learn Japanese.
TL:DR version: Suck it up, software is canceled all the time. This doesn't mean they slighted you or even that they're working on it.
kenjoon, I'll make it simple for you.
They told us that they were going to come out with a suite of tools before the VTT. Suite means more then one. They came out with the Monster Builder.
A year and half later, they are basically rebooting the whole thing, and they have changed directions again.
Ok. But that means I (and many others) am back to waiting even longer for the suite of tools they have been telling us they are working on.
Let me tell you the story of a game...it's name was Earthbound 64. One of the launch titles of the N64 back in Sept 96. There were screen shots, a write up about it in Nintendo Power, even a site for it on the Nintendo website. Do you know when it was released? Never. However in Japan in 2006 (10 years!) later a sequel to Earthbound came out for the Nintendo DS. It was no longer 3d, was for a completely different system and according to the creator the story had evolved considerably but hey it was released. And it only took 10 years, better then another story with the same moral I could tell, one entitled Duke Nukem Forever.
The moral of the story is, digital products (and other products even it's just more noticeable in the digital age) are canceled quite often. Eventually you learn to let go or you grow into an old bitter man who never got to meet Mr. Saturn, BOING! in glorious 3d, and in fact never got to play his sequel without hacking it, do to his being to lazy to learn Japanese.
TL:DR version: Suck it up, software is canceled all the time. This doesn't mean they slighted you or even that they're working on it.
You didn't understand what I was saying.
I'm fine with software being canceled. Just tell me up front. Don't make it seem like something it isn't. The Online tools don't suppliment the offline, they replace. WoTC saying, "Well, that's how we saw it" doens't mean that's how customers are going to see it. And we (For a large majority) didn't.
So far, WoTC has asked me to wait a year and a half for software they said they were working on. That's not including the 5 months I waited after they failed at launch. More then likely it will be over 2 years before I get more software. And even then I'm won't know if what they are giving us is going to do what I would like it to do.
Because I'm left in limbo, it's harder to make a choice. See right now, if they aren't going to give us more tools to help prepare our game, I might as well stop paying for DDi.
I'm not running Dark Sun or Essentials. So it's fine that the CB and MB software doesn't have that information. The two programs have more then enough stuff to keep my game going for a long time.
And, since I can make a PDF of the characters, and then go in and edit them, I can do customization if I want to.
I like the magazines, but can live without them, and if I need to look up a rule, the books are just a reach away. I've used the compendium a few times to cut and paste, but not so much that I couldn't live without it.
So, I'm in DDi because it's $7 a month. I'm not paying for tools yet to come, but for what they currently offer. But if the direction of DDi isn't to go in a direction that is actually going to help me get my gaming going faster and easier...well I guess I can start saving some money each month.
Because even right now, they can't/won't even tell us if the VT will be part of DDi subscription.
How much longer does WoTC think I should wait?
actually they are hitting my target, they are just missing yours
I definitely see a pattern here.
People with Posts on the forums in the low 1000s feel that they have the information and communication.
People who are still asking about what is going on have lower number of posts.
I wouldn't expect, as a paying subscriber, to spend significant effort chasing information about the service I am paying for. That would include when there has been a delay or change to the service.
But having said that, I also don't expect to hear about any "maybe" or "nearly ready" service changes, unless one that was declared as definite has been delayed or changed. Stuff that's in planning or beta only is ideal to go on the forums for DDI people who truly want to be "insiders"
WotC do have some tools for sending service emails and notifications to the rest of us who don't have time or inclination to chat to developers and project managers about business-as-usual service maintenance. These tools could be improved upon, and so could WotC's use of them. Especially when there are problems.
Operations and development seem somewhat tangled here too, in WotC's setup.
kenjoon, I'll make it simple for you.
They told us that they were going to come out with a suite of tools before the VTT. Suite means more then one. They came out with the Monster Builder.
A year and half later, they are basically rebooting the whole thing, and they have changed directions again.
Ok. But that means I (and many others) am back to waiting even longer for the suite of tools they have been telling us they are working on.
Let me tell you the story of a game...it's name was Earthbound 64. One of the launch titles of the N64 back in Sept 96. There were screen shots, a write up about it in Nintendo Power, even a site for it on the Nintendo website. Do you know when it was released? Never. However in Japan in 2006 (10 years!) later a sequel to Earthbound came out for the Nintendo DS. It was no longer 3d, was for a completely different system and according to the creator the story had evolved considerably but hey it was released. And it only took 10 years, better then another story with the same moral I could tell, one entitled Duke Nukem Forever.
The moral of the story is, digital products (and other products even it's just more noticeable in the digital age) are canceled quite often. Eventually you learn to let go or you grow into an old bitter man who never got to meet Mr. Saturn, BOING! in glorious 3d, and in fact never got to play his sequel without hacking it, do to his being to lazy to learn Japanese.
TL:DR version: Suck it up, software is canceled all the time. This doesn't mean they slighted you or even that they're working on it.
You didn't understand what I was saying.
I'm fine with software being canceled. Just tell me up front. Don't make it seem like something it isn't. The Online tools don't suppliment the offline, they replace. WoTC saying, "Well, that's how we saw it" doens't mean that's how customers are going to see it. And we (For a large majority) didn't.
So far, WoTC has asked me to wait a year and a half for software they said they were working on. That's not including the 5 months I waited after they failed at launch. More then likely it will be over 2 years before I get more software. And even then I'm won't know if what they are giving us is going to do what I would like it to do.
Because I'm left in limbo, it's harder to make a choice. See right now, if they aren't going to give us more tools to help prepare our game, I might as well stop paying for DDi.
I'm not running Dark Sun or Essentials. So it's fine that the CB and MB software doesn't have that information. The two programs have more then enough stuff to keep my game going for a long time.
And, since I can make a PDF of the characters, and then go in and edit them, I can do customization if I want to.
I like the magazines, but can live without them, and if I need to look up a rule, the books are just a reach away. I've used the compendium a few times to cut and paste, but not so much that I couldn't live without it.
So, I'm in DDi because it's $7 a month. I'm not paying for tools yet to come, but for what they currently offer. But if the direction of DDi isn't to go in a direction that is actually going to help me get my gaming going faster and easier...well I guess I can start saving some money each month.
Because even right now, they can't/won't even tell us if the VT will be part of DDi subscription.
How much longer does WoTC think I should wait?
Take a deep breath. Forget all about tomorrow for just a minute. Is the price you are currently paying (for DDI) substantiated for the services you are currently receiving?
Once you know the answer to this question you then will know if you should keep DDI or not. It's really that simple. All this fretting over what might be or "when will they tell us something" is a smokescreen that I believe is clouding your decision making process. If you're not getting value for your dollars then stop giving your dollars. If something happens in the future that changes the analysis then you re-evaluate at that time. For example: If they release some new tools that become included in the DDI membership or the VT goes public and is included.
People (not just you Dane, but more generally a lot of people on these forums) are letting their emotions cloud their better judgement. Maybe they have been playing D&D for 30+ years and want to keep supporting WotC and the brand, but they are not getting any value from their DDI membership and are angry because of it. The solution to that problem is simple. Stop paying for DDI when it makes you angry. I'm not saying this is your situation, but trying to suggest that you evaluate the "now" and don't worry so much about the "then". Tomorrow will come and once it's here you can evaluate the "nowness" of it.
Basically "Don't pay for promises". If I was dissatisfied with DDI services you can bet I'd have already cancelled and got my refund.
If you had actually read what I said (and it seems what others are saying), you might have noticed this:
So, I'm in DDi because it's $7 a month. I'm not paying for tools yet to come, but for what they currently offer.
OMG! I'm already doing just as you suggest!
See, I'm an informed paying customer. I don't pretend what I pay for is only the CB, like some do. I don't pretend that by buying DDi now, it means I will get anything more later. Even though they have been telling me that they are working on bringing me more.
But as DDi stands now, if what they are going to be offering down the road isn't what I need, I can stop paying right now, and still be a happy customer with what I have. SO, if they want to keep getting money from customers like me, I've let them know my needs as a customer.
And I think after all the time I've been patient, I have earned the right to know what's planned down the road, so I can decide if I want to continue or not. Again, because I've earned that, after over 2 and a half years of being patient. But since they aren't providing any answers, it's hard to make an informed choice. I think that's easy to understand.
Maybe it's time to follow your own advice and take a deep breath.
kenjoon, you need to read more and think less of your response. You basically just ran off your standard "Think if you are getting what you paid for" and "Don't pay for promises" Stick.
If you had actually read what I said (and it seems what others are saying), you might have noticed this:So, I'm in DDi because it's $7 a month. I'm not paying for tools yet to come, but for what they currently offer.
OMG! I'm already doing just as you suggest!
See, I'm an informed paying customer. I don't pretend what I pay for is only the CB, like some do. I don't pretend that by buying DDi now, it means I will get anything more later. Even though they have been telling me that they are working on bringing me more.
But as DDi stands now, if what they are going to be offering down the road isn't what I need, I can stop paying right now, and still be a happy customer with what I have. SO, if they want to keep getting money from customers like me, I've let them know my needs as a customer.
And I think after all the time I've been patient, I have earned the right to know what's planned down the road, so I can decide if I want to continue or not. Again, because I've earned that, after over 2 and a half years of being patient. But since they aren't providing any answers, it's hard to make an informed choice. I think that's easy to understand.
Maybe it's time to follow your own advice and take a deep breath.
But I did read your comments. I guess I'm not clear:
1) Why any of that matters and
2) Why you feel "And I think after all the time I've been patient, I have earned the right to know what's planned down the road"
You feel some sense of entitlement regarding point 2. I'd say it's pretty clear that they are already not giving you what you want which goes right back to my point about "Is the price you are currently paying (for DDI) substantiated for the services you are currently receiving?". If the services you expect are "earned the right to know what's planned down the road" and they are not providing those services then it's pretty clear to me that you are conflicted/clouded in your decision to keep or drop DDI.
Frankly (IMO) the only people who have "earned the right to know what's planned down the road" are WotC employees. Being a customer doesn't "earn" you the right to anything more than their product when you give them your $$. (I'm thinking here NOTE: This is not meant personally to anyone, but simply an analogy about entitlement of any movie involving a rock star and some psychotic fan who feels entitled to "something more" for all the money they've spent on records/cds/movies/posters/etc. repeating the line "I'm your biggest fan" over and over again as they become a stalker). You might "expect" or "demand" because expectations and demands often go unfulfilled whereas "earned" implies that they "have to" give it to you. WotC doesn't have to give you anything more than you paid for and that I believe is what is clouding your perception of things.
kenjoon, you need to read more and think less of your response. You basically just ran off your standard "Think if you are getting what you paid for" and "Don't pay for promises" Stick.
If you had actually read what I said (and it seems what others are saying), you might have noticed this:So, I'm in DDi because it's $7 a month. I'm not paying for tools yet to come, but for what they currently offer.
OMG! I'm already doing just as you suggest!
See, I'm an informed paying customer. I don't pretend what I pay for is only the CB, like some do. I don't pretend that by buying DDi now, it means I will get anything more later. Even though they have been telling me that they are working on bringing me more.
But as DDi stands now, if what they are going to be offering down the road isn't what I need, I can stop paying right now, and still be a happy customer with what I have. SO, if they want to keep getting money from customers like me, I've let them know my needs as a customer.
And I think after all the time I've been patient, I have earned the right to know what's planned down the road, so I can decide if I want to continue or not. Again, because I've earned that, after over 2 and a half years of being patient. But since they aren't providing any answers, it's hard to make an informed choice. I think that's easy to understand.
Maybe it's time to follow your own advice and take a deep breath.
But I did read your comments. I guess I'm not clear:
1) Why any of that matters and
2) Why you feel "And I think after all the time I've been patient, I have earned the right to know what's planned down the road"
You feel some sense of entitlement regarding point 2. I'd say it's pretty clear that they are already not giving you what you want which goes right back to my point about "Is the price you are currently paying (for DDI) substantiated for the services you are currently receiving?". If the services you expect are "earned the right to know what's planned down the road" and they are not providing those services then it's pretty clear to me that you are conflicted/clouded in your decision to keep or drop DDI.
Frankly (IMO) the only people who have "earned the right to know what's planned down the road" are WotC employees. Being a customer doesn't "earn" you the right to anything more than their product when you give them your $$. (I'm thinking here NOTE: This is not meant personally to anyone, but simply an analogy about entitlement of any movie involving a rock star and some psychotic fan who feels entitled to "something more" for all the money they've spent on records/cds/movies/posters/etc. repeating the line "I'm your biggest fan" over and over again as they become a stalker). You might "expect" or "demand" because expectations and demands often go unfulfilled whereas "earned" implies that they "have to" give it to you. WotC doesn't have to give you anything more than you paid for and that I believe is what is clouding your perception of things.
If you would actually read, and not worry so much about what you are going to respond with, you'd have your answers.
There is no sense of entitlement going on. To be a happy customer, I need to be an informed customer. To decide if I want to continue paying for DDi, I have to know where it's going, even in general terms.
Such as, the VT will include many tools to help set up a game, such as a map maker, encounter builder, and so on, of which we intend to make it so you can use them online, or export for use in your live game.
If it's not going in a direction that is going to give me what I need to run my game, I'm more then happy to stop paying for it, and let it be what it is.
DDi is a set of incomplete tools, which keeps changing what they are going to be. As a customer, I've reached my limit of time waiting for them to decide.
It seems they have decided to change that direction from when WoTC and I both entered an agreement where I give them money. Since they have changed their mind, it's only fair for me to know what that change entails, so I can decide if I want to continue giving them money.
It's pretty simple to understand.
...snip...
To be a happy customer, I need to be an informed customer. To decide if I want to continue paying for DDi, I have to know where it's going, even in general terms.
...snip...
DDi is a set of incomplete tools, which keeps changing what they are going to be. As a customer, I've reached my limit of time waiting for them to decide.
...snip...
It's pretty simple to understand.
What I'm driving at is how long do you keep waiting for them to tell you anything. A week? A month? A quarter? A year? What if they never tell you anything about their future plans? At some point you have to evaluate based on what you know right now or you'll be waiting forever which contradicts your comment about having reached your "...limit of time waiting for them to decide."
So my point stands and you haven't addressed it. Are you happy (right now) with everything you know about the future direction of DDI? Have you factored that into your decision to keep or drop DDI (right now). Tomorrow doesn't matter because it may never come.
And you're absolutely correct that it was easy to understand, the problem seems to be that you're not understanding my response(s) and/or the question.
As for tomorrow never comes. It most certainly does. If I know today that a hurricane is coming tomorrow and do nothing to prepare, I haven't much reason to be upset when my windows get blown out, and my house flooded.
That is terrible ideology to try and prove your point.
Hmmm, the needle seems to be stuck.