I just subscribed to a whole year.
I assumed that once D&D insider started charging it would be a complete system.
Its like buying a car, but receiving the steering wheel, and then being told.
Come back next week we might have an engine.
Come back next month we might have some wheels.
Come back in two months, we might have the keys.
But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.
Silly me for trusting Wizards.
Silly me.
I just subscribed to a whole year.
I assumed that once D&D insider started charging it would be a complete system.
Its like buying a car, but receiving the steering wheel, and then being told.
Come back next week we might have an engine.
Come back next month we might have some wheels.
Come back in two months, we might have the keys.
But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.
Silly me for trusting Wizards.
They were clear on this issue, they sold part of DDI right now, they will give you that part for the price and time you paid for, even if other parts come online (functional) for an increased fee.
I have been correcting users that appeared to believe the lower price was for the complete package in something like 24 to 48 hours after that belief was posted.
It was clear to me then and it is still clear mow, web content part of DDI is now fee.
But, we will start charging you the complete price for our incomplete product.
you forgot the best part of it - the price you are paying, is only fixed for what you are getting now.
for the other applications, pricing will most likely be higher, and you probably won't get them without upgrading your subscription.
oh and: it was not a bait and switch. they never told you that the rest of the applications will be there if you subscribe. evolution takes its way and your money, i guess....
4. Will the web-only subscription package remain an option after the full package becomes available?
We haven’t decided the details of future pricing and packages yet. The one guarantee that we’re making at this stage is that we will honor the full term you sign up for now. If you buy 12 months of web content at $4.95 per month then you will get 12 months of web content at $4.95 per month, no matter what we decide to do with our pricing in the future.
Seems to me that even if the pricing goes up for new features, they'll honor your year purchase.
4.95 a month for full access to the options that are available is pretty reasonable, which is why I went ahead and signed up. /shrug
I have not signed up, si I do not know. On signup, does it tell you excplicitly what is included in the package and what is not included?
I am not sure that Wizards cares, (or should) but I can see some people being surprised at what might not be included and that the advertised stuff will cost more.
1 Year Dungeons and Dragons Insider Subscription
With a subscription to D&D Insider, you gain instant access to each month's Dragon and Dungeon magazine content, as well as PDF downloads of the magazine issues at the end of the month. In addition, you gain full use of the D&D Compendium database, as well as three Bonus Tools: the Encounter Builder, Monster Builder, and Ability Generator.
this is everything they have over there.
What you have forgotten about is anyone that might not be watching the web everyday for DDI news. If I am a new person to D&D, I buy the books and I see in the back this great new DDI thing. I sign up and find out that almost everything that is the back of every book is not there. What am I to think?
I have not signed up, si I do not know. On signup, does it tell you excplicitly what is included in the package and what is not included?
From the back of the PHB 4e:
Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider.
With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with your friends anywhere - wherever they live, wherever you go.
Get a 10day free trial at:
dndinsider.com
***********************
Now, that does mention playing online, but thats about it. To truly understand what you might get, you'd have to go to dndinsider.com.
My questions are;
Can you actually get a full 10 day trial right now?
Does the trial give you full access to everything in DnDinsider.com (which free trials usually imply)?
IF someone were to go to the site, click subscribe, they get a page that lists the following items they get:
"With a subscription to D&D Insider, you gain instant access to each month's Dragon and Dungeon magazine content, as well as PDF downloads of the magazine issues at the end of the month. In addition, you gain full use of the D&D Compendium database, as well as three Bonus Tools: the Encounter Builder, Monster Builder, and Ability Generator."
No mention of the future items, so there is no question of what they are getting. If they did research before the purchase, that should be obvious as well.
However, I honestly don't think they are 'out to screw' anyone for a few dollars. As I said before, 4.95 for the Dragon, Dungeon and full access to the compendium is very reasonable. When the other features become available, I'll see how much they are (assuming they aren't part of the monthly subscription) and decide if they are worth buying.
For now however, I don't feel that I've been 'screwed' and I don't see how anyone else should feel differently.
Am I unhappy the other features aren't there yet, sure, but I'd rather wait and pay more later, than not have them working properly and released early. Then I'd feel slighted.
Cumc: I'd love to hear your exact process in this. There's been a lot of argument about whether or not the website is misleading/confusing as to what you get when you subscribe, but it's all speculative. I'd love to hear a concrete example of a user's experience.
Just go to this link, it shows what you'll get, for how much. If there is something misleading about it, I'd like to know.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/subscription
Simple enough, beyond this link is entering your account and payment info, nothing more. That pretty much sums up the experience.
Basically, it doesn't take that much time to make sure that people know what they are going to get, especially since most of the Insider stuff is not available yet. If it was available, then no big deal, the packages that you display would have what is included.
Cumc: I'd love to hear your exact process in this. There's been a lot of argument about whether or not the website is misleading/confusing as to what you get when you subscribe, but it's all speculative. I'd love to hear a concrete example of a user's experience.
It seems pretty clear to me.
Note what I have circled in red.
It seems pretty clear to me.
Note what I have circled in red.
I understand, but since some things are not even available yet, it would go far in mentioning that on that page and that you are not getting access to those applications when they become available. Remember, it is all about perception. So what if it changes? Surprise! We just gave you something for free! People LIKE that.
"I bought my players handbook in June, and saw the ad in the back directing me to go to dndinsider.com for a free trial. I checked out the site and was really excited about all the things they were offering. But, after a couple of weeks of checking and it not being ready I forgot about it. Four months later I see from X(buddy, enworld, game store) that's it's ready. So I go to dndinsider.com again and click the subscribe now. Now hearing something about it not all being ready? Hey!"
This is only a hypothetical example, which is why I'd like to hear from the OP, but it doesn't seem impossible. There are probably lots of people who don't follow the boards who don't know anything about the many delays, the tiered pricing scheme, the new bonus tools, or anything.
I understand, but since some things are not even available yet, it would go far in mentioning that on that page and that you are not getting access to those applications when they become available. Remember, it is all about perception. So what if it changes? Surprise! We just gave you something for free! People LIKE that.
I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.
I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.
I understand what (I think) they are looking for.
It makes it clear that those are the applications that you are getting, but they would like also to have it indicated:
- the list of applications that are *not* released yet;
- That as more applications are released, people may need to upgrade their subscription to get access to those applications.
I understand what (I think) they are looking for.
It makes it clear that those are the applications that you are getting, but they would like also to have it indicated:
- the list of applications that are *not* released yet;
- That as more applications are released, people may need to upgrade their subscription to get access to those applications.
Yeh, that sounds right. It manages to be clear yet confusing at the same time, mainly because a lot of other sources have previously indicated that you'll be getting the full lineup of applications.
I am a bit confused and want to understand the concern.
All the things circled in red are currently available to subscribers.
Well, here at work, I cannot access your picture, but I think I know what you are talking about. Let me put it this way. (BTW, I don't necessarily think it is a problem, I have customer service background and think things should be spelled out for people):
On the subsciption page where you choose the 3 pricing plans (before going to DR pages). Instead of a paragraph that people have to read, make a bulleted item of what it includes. Also include that these applications (character builder, dungeon builder, etc) are NOT even available yet and your subscription WILL NOT include them when they become available.
I see an issue with nothing on that page says that things are not even available to subscribe to yet and that page should be clear to expect that the other applications are not included in the package.
If Wizards decides to change their mind, the customer gets something for "free", if not, you have stated that they may have to upgrade their package to get new application as they come out.
Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).
I think people are used to website subscriptions that include the entire website. Anything new, they would, by default, think that they should have access to it. Unless there is a one time fee to purchase a program.
From the back of the PHB 4e:
Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider.
With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with your friends anywhere - wherever they live, wherever you go.
Get a 10day free trial at:
dndinsider.com
Mine goes on to say "restrictions apply, see site for details." Does yours not?
I wound up getting four or five months worth of free trial, personally.
Mine goes on to say "restrictions apply, see site for details." Does yours not?
I wound up getting four or five months worth of free trial, personally.
and if somebody just discovered D&D and comes to the site as a first time player, that free trail is still valid. All mags before Oct. 1, 2008 are still free and will remain free. The Compedimun ... there is a free trial, just not as complete as if paying (However it was not complete during trail period).
Three components of 8 (depends how you count them) have had their free access, and will continue to have free access for trail.
Not quite what WotC planed, however they planned on an income stream starting months ago.
That is ridiculous.
Well, here at work, I cannot access your picture, but I think I know what you are talking about. Let me put it this way. (BTW, I don't necessarily think it is a problem, I have customer service background and think things should be spelled out for people):
On the subsciption page where you choose the 3 pricing plans (before going to DR pages). Instead of a paragraph that people have to read, make a bulleted item of what it includes. Also include that these applications (character builder, dungeon builder, etc) are NOT even available yet and your subscription WILL NOT include them when they become available.
I see an issue with nothing on that page says that things are not even available to subscribe to yet and that page should be clear to expect that the other applications are not included in the package.
If Wizards decides to change their mind, the customer gets something for "free", if not, you have stated that they may have to upgrade their package to get new application as they come out.
Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).
I think people are used to website subscriptions that include the entire website. Anything new, they would, by default, think that they should have access to it. Unless there is a one time fee to purchase a program.
Basically you have both. You have a simplified two sentence paragraph that tells you what you get. For more details of what you may or may not get, you can refer to the EULA that comes with it that you supposedly have read when you check the box.
To say "list out all those products they don't get" isn't plausible or necessary. I could see bulleted items IF they offer the other items later as separate options:
Dragon/Dungeon Subscription, plus DnD Compendium only.
Dragon/Dungeon Subscription, plus DnD Compendium and character builder.
etc.
If there were options to actually choose, bulleted points would make sense. But right now, the only 'option' is to choose which payment plan you like, 12, 6 or 1 month recurring.
If anyone goes to a site because they heard about something, but doesn't bother to pay attention to what they are getting, isn't being very smart.
Example. A friend of mine went to Direct 2 Drive to buy Warhammer Online, got through all the steps, saw the price listed in British pounds. He ASSUMED that since Warhammer is a Games Workshop License, that it must be going through them. I'm pretty sure if he had done just a bit more reading, he would have noticed he was buying the European version, which is no good in the US. However he just assumed. Does that make it anybodies fault that he bought it other than his own? No.
My point here is you could add more text to it, saying you get this, plus you don't get these items, but if they aren't taking time to read and understand the limited list that is there, they aren't going to read something longer.
From a customer service standpoint, I see more calls from people wondering why you are listing things you don't get, as opposed to just saying what you do get.
From the EULA:
Show
The Program and its existing, past or to-be-developed Components, and each of them, may be available to you with or without charge, as described in the Payment Terms. Access to certain features, functions, and/or full or partial portions of the Components and other aspects of the Program may require payment. You may also be provided “trial”, “demo”, “beta” or other limited-functionality or limited-access versions of the Program and/or its Components without (and/or for) charge. Converting an account and/or specific Program version or Components, with trial or limited functionality rights to an enhanced account and/or version of the Program or Components, to a paid account or version, or entering billing information during any during your access to the Program during any trial period or other authorized non-charged access to the Program (provided by Wizards) may result in the termination of your free access and/or account to the Program or applicable Component and you may lose access to the associated information or other data.
The Program and its existing, past or to-be-developed Components, and each of them, may be available to you with or without charge, as described in the Payment Terms. Access to certain features, functions, and/or full or partial portions of the Components and other aspects of the Program may require payment. You may also be provided “trial”, “demo”, “beta” or other limited-functionality or limited-access versions of the Program and/or its Components without (and/or for) charge. Converting an account and/or specific Program version or Components, with trial or limited functionality rights to an enhanced account and/or version of the Program or Components, to a paid account or version, or entering billing information during any during your access to the Program during any trial period or other authorized non-charged access to the Program (provided by Wizards) may result in the termination of your free access and/or account to the Program or applicable Component and you may lose access to the associated information or other data.
I can't tell you how many casual gamers I told about 4e before it was released. The main selling point was being able to play online, since most of the gamers I know are rather isolated. Based on the marketing material and the books themselves, all of those people would think DDi is much more than what WotC is presenting as DDi today.
Things are not clear enough that all the fancy things advertised for 4e and DDi are NOT present right now. It's painfully clear to those of us that have been here since day one, but not to the average gamer who had gotten interested in 4e from the marketing.
So let me get this straight, you want them to list every digital product you are NOT buying that they plan to have in the future?
That is ridiculous.
No, just the big ones that they pimped all through this year as being available and have listed on the DDI page, not every single one they ever plan to have ever. Not everyone keeps up with everything on the forums.
Yeah, what's there ought to be enough (I think people ought to at least read about what they're slinging their dollars at). But equally, a simple "This subscription package does not include the Game Table, Character Builder, etc, etc. Those applications are forthcoming and will be available under a separate subscription package" would go a long way toward cutting down on this kind of thread.
No, just the big ones that they pimped all through this year as being available and have listed on the DDI page, not every single one they ever plan to have ever. Not everyone keeps up with everything on the forums.
That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?
They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.
Yeah, what's there ought to be enough (I think people ought to at least read about what they're slinging their dollars at). But equally, a simple "This subscription package does not include the Game Table, Character Builder, etc, etc. Those applications are forthcoming and will be available under a separate subscription package" would go a long way toward cutting down on this kind of thread.
That would cause as much confusion as it solves.
That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?
I'm not buying anything, I'm just discussing the issue. Kindly keep the aggression to yourself.
They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.
No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that. Why yes, yes I did say that.
That would cause as much confusion as it solves.
Maybe. Maybe not. Getting angry about it doesn't help though.
Again, perception. All the information should be on the subscription page, not in other parts of the site (FAQs, newsletters, etc).
Particularly not on the forums.
As far as the 10 day free trial issue. It clearly states a 10 day free trial on my books. This trial does not exist, however nor does the Game Table that's advertises. I can only suppose that the 10 day free trial will occur when the full suite is released.
There should probably be information, prominently visible, stating that as well.
you don't need to really sign up to get the information:
this is everything they have over there.
and its a good value, even at the per month rate a days lunch is more expensive.
No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that. Why yes, yes I did say that.
.
so your argument is dumb people should not buy things? not saying your dumb but that does appear to be what you are arguing.
if a person cannot be bothered to read the paragraph about what they are buying that is on the page they buy it that's the buyers fault.
and its a good value, even at the per month rate a days lunch is more expensive.
if it was on paper, i'd probably tell you it's to cheap. but for an e-mag, it's hard on the upper boundary.
btw: comparing to lunch, ultimately says nothing about whether you can or should buy that package or not. if i bought anything that costs but 5 bucks a month, i would be pretty poor. (maybe very happy too, but definitely broke)
This needs to be made clear on the page where you subscribe, and if you need to upgrade, the price of the upgrade. This should have been ironed out before they offered the subscriptions.
Its $8 for 1 month. Not $5. I don't know why people claim $5, but from where I'm from you look at the monthly fee and tell people that, then say that it costs $60 for a year. That way it IS $5 per month.
$8 per month. $8.
...
$8.
That's always bugged me. Sorry, it just has. Just wanted to toss that out there in the "useless banter" bin.
so your argument is dumb people should not buy things? not saying your dumb but that does appear to be what you are arguing.
Huh? No, that's not what I'm arguing. Where'd you get that from?
What I did was agree that people ought to be reading the particulars of what they're buying, but since there seems to be so much confusion about it, thanks in part to WotC's general lack of specific communication over the past year, WotC might be better off adding a blurb about the high profile apps arriving later and not being part of this web-content subscription.
I never said dumb people shouldn't buy things, and I'd be interested in hearing exactly what part of my posts gave you that impression. I think perhaps you've gotten me confused with someone else.
Why does everyone go by the 4.95 price as the baseline for how much this subscription costs?
Its $8 for 1 month. Not $5. I don't know why people claim $5, but from where I'm from you look at the monthly fee and tell people that, then say that it costs $60 for a year. That way it IS $5 per month.
$8 per month. $8.
...
$8.
That's always bugged me. Sorry, it just has. Just wanted to toss that out there in the "useless banter" bin.
I'm not everybody, but that's what I go by because that's what it cost me. Why would I pay more than the cheapest rate? Especially when they've promised all access at that rate for the length of my subscription?
Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.
Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.
"It better be good bread!"
That is still ridiculous. You are buying something. Read what you are buying. It doesn't list the game table so why would you think you were buying it?
They have posted articles describing exactly what you are getting and what is being pushed back. They should not be required to remind you, just in case, that you are not buying everything in their catalog at the point of sale.
That would cause as much confusion as it solves.
Oh no I am quite sorry but it is very very much NOT ridiculous. WotC Advertised and Advertised a certain group of products as the central core of D&D Insider for months, in fact it has only been over the last month or two that there were ever any answers forthcoming that those products were so delayed that they couldn't even give a possible release date for them. It is perfectly logical that people buying the three core books and seeing the ads in them would come here expecting to see some spectacular set of tools with at the very least something that would handle character creation, do portraits and allow you to play online ready to go and ready to get a free ten day trial. The only people who know that to not be true are the people who read these forums. You tell me man, you explain to me how some new player who does not frequent these forums could possibly know that D&D Insider isn't up and ready to go by reading what is in the three Core Books. You explain to me how they could possibly know that their is no free ten day trial at this moment, that they cannot play online with friends, or access an application that is anything that even resembles the one pictured in the ad in the back of the Core Books? They can't. Period. Not unless they come here and read these forums and specifically read the D&D Insider section of these forums, and most new players probably won't even know these forums exist until they type the url in their web browser. I am starting to believe that D&D 4e and specifically D&D Insider = the Titanic, no one on the inside knew that it was a sinking ship until it hit the iceberg, but if anyone had been on the outside looking in they could have seen the danger clearly.
Charles
You explain to me how they could possibly know that their is no free ten day trial at this moment, that they cannot play online with friends, or access an application that is anything that even resembles the one pictured in the ad in the back of the Core Books? They can't. Period. Not unless they come here and read these forums and specifically read the D&D Insider section of these forums, and most new players probably won't even know these forums exist until they type the url in their web browser.
Actually, the Digital Insider article on the main page of the WotC website is free and has pretty much lined out everything in the last three issues. So, even if someone is not a forum member, they should be easily able to find out all this information by just clicking the link on the WotC main page that reads "News."
Actually, the Digital Insider article on the main page of the WotC website is free and has pretty much lined out everything in the last three issues. So, even if someone is not a forum member, they should be easily able to find out all this information by just clicking the link on the WotC main page that reads "News."
well, this is not how it works, which makes me sad.
1) if you are uninformed, go to dndinsider.com.
2) see the shiny new banner "peek behind the screen", and click it
3) you land at the subscription page. while you have the text there, that you only get compendium, mags and bonus tools, there is no clear distinction between the different levels of available tools - simply because they are not there yet. however, someone new might not know what the compendium is, and believe this is what he saw in the ad. sign up is the next step, and probably many people failed to read all the news and articles upfront.
can you easily find out what you get? i'd say partially, it takes some time but no deep digging.
could it be easier? yeah, a lot easier. and that's what most of this thread is about. you should not be required to read newsposts or forum entries to find out what you are buying.
it's like telling a 16 year old boy who bought his first car without engine that he could have checked the vendor homepage first.
A quick click on any of the tools that aren't yet available clearly marks them as "Coming Soon" on their main graphic splash. I honestly don't see how, without WotC reprinting all the core books, which is totally unrealistic, it could be made clearer.
And in the case of someone who blindly throws out a subscription without testing what they're getting first (remember, the ads in my core books say free 10 day trial), then I'm pretty loath to feel any sympathy when they find out that the full round of tools is not available yet. To me, it's more a case of the 16 year old first-time driver buying a car without looking under the hood.
And in the case of someone who blindly throws out a subscription without testing what they're getting first (remember, the ads in my core books say free 10 day trial), then I'm pretty loath to feel any sympathy when they find out that the full round of tools is not available yet. To me, it's more a case of the 16 year old first-time driver buying a car without looking under the hood.
There is no 10 day free trial.
I'm not buying anything, I'm just discussing the issue. Kindly keep the aggression to yourself.
No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that. Why yes, yes I did say that.
Maybe. Maybe not. Getting angry about it doesn't help though.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm "angry" and "aggressive" regarding this issue. I assure you I am not. No need to paint yourself as a victim under attack. I simply feel that some customers (that was a hypothetical "you") have unrealistic expectations for what information should be fed them on the time of purchase.
Oh no I am quite sorry but it is very very much NOT ridiculous. WotC Advertised and Advertised a certain group of products as the central core of D&D Insider for months,
I think you mean: "months ago". Not "for months".
They've made it clear what you are NOT buying on their site, in the D&Di portion of their site. The fact that this information is not needlessly duplicated at the moment of sale is a non-issue.
in fact it has only been over the last month or two that there were ever any answers forthcoming that those products were so delayed that they couldn't even give a possible release date for them. It is perfectly logical that people buying the three core books and seeing the ads in them would come here expecting to see some spectacular set of tools with at the very least something that would handle character creation, do portraits and allow you to play online ready to go and ready to get a free ten day trial.
And when they get here they'll see that's not the case.
And even if they're incredibly loose with their money, ignoring everything on the site except for the "buy" banner, they'll see exactly what they're buying at the moment of sale.
The only people who know that to not be true are the people who read these forums.
That's simply not true.
You tell me man, you explain to me how some new player who does not frequent these forums could possibly know that D&D Insider isn't up and ready to go by reading what is in the three Core Books. You explain to me how they could possibly know that their is no free ten day trial at this moment, that they cannot play online with friends, or access an application that is anything that even resembles the one pictured in the ad in the back of the Core Books?
News posts, explanations in the Insider section of the site, and oh yeah, the list of what they are buying at the point of sale.
When you buy a book from a store, do you expect to be told what books from that publisher you are NOT buying? Those books you're not buying are likely advertised just as much as anything else, more than Insider. You might even be hotly anticipating those books.
Just because it's the internet doesn't put some added burden on the seller to make sure you know what you're doing.
I am starting to believe that D&D 4e and specifically D&D Insider = the Titanic, no one on the inside knew that it was a sinking ship until it hit the iceberg, but if anyone had been on the outside looking in they could have seen the danger clearly.
Wow, what an odd analogy. What's the iceberg? How is 4E sinking? What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
This revealed that the whole purpose of your post was to just say "4E & DDi = FAIL".
---
Honestly, where is DDi being advertised so incredibly much? It's not. In the core books, sure, but when you go to the URL for more information, as it says, you get that more information and realize what's currently available and how things have changed.
If you heard about it at a Con or something, from a WotC employee, they would be very clear about it.
And if you go to buy it, it clearly states what you're buying. Surfing these forums is in no way necessary to understand what's going on here.
When I type "dndinsider.com" into my web browser and hit enter, it takes me to the WotC website with the D&DInsider tab extended, to show the features under that tab.
A quick click on any of the tools that aren't yet available clearly marks them as "Coming Soon" on their main graphic splash. I honestly don't see how, without WotC reprinting all the core books, which is totally unrealistic, it could be made clearer.
Nicely put.
People are acting like release dates for products never change after the product has been advertised.
I liked the price and I'm impressed with the product, so I did.
There is no 10 day free trial.
Actually, if you want to get technical about it, there's a several month free trial on the magazines.... ;)
I know there's currently no 10 day free trial. I was using it as an example to counteract the disingenuous idea that people won't click on the links to see what's offered and will suscribe blindly.
Nicely put.
Thank you.
Actually, if you want to get technical about it, there's a several month free trial on the magazines.... ;)
I know there's currently no 10 day free trial. I was using it as an example to counteract the disingenuous idea that people won't click on the links to see what's offered and will suscribe blindly.
Thank you.
If you want to get technical about it the fact that the magazines were free previously is meaningless. I'm (we're) being asked to subscribe to a service, one that includes the regular periodic release of magazine content, as well as a set of tools.
I bought my books this morning. I can't get access this months content, nor can I access any of the bonus tools without subscribing. I can look at back issues of magazines... and that's not even part of the service. Which is odd, because my books say that I can go to dndinsider to get a free trial.
It's not a valid example and it highlights the issue that a free trial is advertised but not provided. There isn't even an acknowledgment that the free trial program was canceled. I'm not seeing a mention if it at all.
As far as noticing the disclaimers on what you get, it's not nearly as prominent as it should be. The "Coming Soon" text blends into the image and you have to drill into the News section to get the information that you don't get everything listed as it becomes available. You can argue all you want that someone who's thinking of purchasing a subscription should see that, but that's entirely opinion.
I can look at back issues of magazines... and that's not even part of the service. Which is odd, because my books say that I can go to dndinsider to get a free trial.
Actually, without logging in, I can access all the previous magazines, which, despite your claim to the contrary, are a part of D&DI. I can also see a demo of the Compendium. In fact, I can access all of the D&DI,in a limited capacity, except for the bonus tools, which were not intended to be part of the initiative when those ads were published.
The limited capacity, I believe, could be covered by the disclaimer "Restrictions apply" that is printed at the bottom of the ads.
can you easily find out what you get? i'd say partially, it takes some time but no deep digging.
could it be easier? yeah, a lot easier. and that's what most of this thread is about. you should not be required to read newsposts or forum entries to find out what you are buying.
+1 on this.
The advertising is inconsistent with what you actually end up purchasing, apparently. The Character Builder, etc are advertised as Tools, listed on the D&D Insider page, and yet you have to dig through the news articles and forums to find out that those tools are NOT going to be given to you when they're available, you have to pay extra.
There should be CLEAR text on the subscription page indicating these additional tools are A) Not currently available and b) subject to additional fees , otherwise someone like myself just assumes they're part of the "Bonus Tools".
The Character Builder, etc are advertised as Tools,
...
someone like myself just assumes they're part of the "Bonus Tools".
That...is an excellent point.
The implication was that you get these tools as they become available if you subscribe now. There is no indication during the subscription process that there are additional fees or tiers associated with access to the tools that are "Coming Soon".
While I think the subscription page is very clear about what you are getting, what happens when new applications are added is not. Perhaps a sentence or two could be added, something to the effect of:
"Other applications such as the Character Buildier and Game Table are still under development and will be added to DDI in the future. Accessing these applications, when available, may require an upgrade to your subscription."
Not ideal when you are trying to sell something, especially since they have said they have not made any descisions on future pricing. If they had not publicized the other applications so much I would say even this is not necessary. But if people are actually looking for them, then maybe something like this is.
Actually, without logging in, I can access all the previous magazines, which, despite your claim to the contrary, are a part of D&DI. I can also see a demo of the Compendium. In fact, I can access all of the D&DI,in a limited capacity, except for the bonus tools, which were not intended to be part of the initiative when those ads were published.
The limited capacity, I believe, could be covered by the disclaimer "Restrictions apply" that is printed at the bottom of the ads.
Err no. Access to those three issues has nothing to do with a subscription of Insider. They are available to everyone. At the current time you will NOT have access to any archive issues unless you were subscribed during the time those issues were released.
You cannot access all of D&DI. Those "bonus" tools are clearly listed as part of DDI and they are not accessible, period. They are called out explicitly in the ad by the phrase "digital tool". Intent has nothing to do with it.
The other phrase used is "exclusive content", again, you have no way to enter a 10 day trial for the "exclusive content", you may ONLY look at three magazines that were released to everyone and by definition are not exclusive.
You can try to stretch it any way you like, but you're wrong. Absolutely, 100% wrong. There is no trial. It's not mentioned on the site at all. Not even the "restrictions" that apply. I'd love to see the wording of those restrictions seeing as how they'd have to say "Sorry, the restrictions are that there actually is no 10 day trial".
The fact is that there is no 10 day free trial. There isn't even a disclaimer of restrictions on the site, which the ad points you to for information.
Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.
You might want to not put words in people mouths, or take them out for that matter. I might very well be inclined to say "Hey, $4 bread!!" and would be well within my rights to say so. Just because you dont see it that way doesnt mean you have to **** in our cornflakes.
I've read thread after thread started by someone saying things like "I bought the books expecting to play online when I got home" or "Where do I sign up?", or "I didn't even know there was a table of contents page". As a forum regular and someone who follows the site I don't have these diffculties, but fear there is a real problem with the way information is presented for the average D&D user. I don't want to dismiss these posters as idiots or trolls without understanding their experiences.
Was the description of what you were getting with the subscription misleading? Since some people were obviously disappointed after subscribing that would suggest - yes. But exactly what was included was listed so - no.
This indicates that it was not misleading but could have been more clearly described.
I believe that all arguements beyond this are meaningless because they just tell where you are on the spectrum from 'mislead' to 'not mislead'. I don't think we are here on the boards to talk about that.
Realistically, until DDI becomes useful, I'm using 3PP tools and trying to con some neighbors into playing.
You might want to not put words in people mouths, or take them out for that matter. I might very well be inclined to say "Hey, $4 bread!!" and would be well within my rights to say so. Just because you dont see it that way doesnt mean you have to **** in our cornflakes.
Well you still didn't say one dollar bread you said 4 dollar bread. I have no Idea why you'd pay 4 dollars for bread but if that breads worth 4 dollars to you my complaint is not with you. Were you to tell me they have one dollar bread at the local supermarket and I went there expecting such. I would be very unhappy to find 4 dollar bread at 12 for 12 dollars.
Huh? No, that's not what I'm arguing. Where'd you get that from?
What I did was agree that people ought to be reading the particulars of what they're buying, but since there seems to be so much confusion about it, thanks in part to WotC's general lack of specific communication over the past year, WotC might be better off adding a blurb about the high profile apps arriving later and not being part of this web-content subscription.
I never said dumb people shouldn't buy things, and I'd be interested in hearing exactly what part of my posts gave you that impression. I think perhaps you've gotten me confused with someone else.
you said "No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that."
what you are getting is labled quite plainly about the purchase options.
you are saying that some people cannot manage to read this obvious paragraph.
those people would be dumb people. that you seemed to be advocating the protection of
Yes and that's the discounted price the actual price is 8 dollars not 5 period if you pay yearly you get a discount. If you went to a store and saw Bread on the Isle with a price tag saying 4 dollars and he sign underneath that says 12 for 12 dollars you wouldn't say hey 1 dollar bread you'd say Why the hell are they trying to charge 4 dollars for bread.
a better example would be if you went to sams and saw a sign stating
bread 8.00 a loaf
buy 5 for 30 dollars
10 for 40 dollars.
Oh no I am quite sorry but it is very very much NOT ridiculous. WotC Advertised and Advertised a certain group of products as the central core of D&D Insider for months, in fact it has only been over the last month or two that there were ever any answers forthcoming that those products were so delayed that they couldn't even give a possible release date for them. It is perfectly logical that people buying the three core books and seeing the ads in them would come here expecting to see some spectacular set of tools with at the very least something that would handle character creation, do portraits and allow you to play online ready to go and ready to get a free ten day trial. The only people who know that to not be true are the people who read these forums. You tell me man, you explain to me how some new player who does not frequent these forums could possibly know that D&D Insider isn't up and ready to go by reading what is in the three Core Books. You explain to me how they could possibly know that their is no free ten day trial at this moment, that they cannot play online with friends, or access an application that is anything that even resembles the one pictured in the ad in the back of the Core Books? They can't. Period. Not unless they come here and read these forums and specifically read the D&D Insider section of these forums, and most new players probably won't even know these forums exist until they type the url in their web browser. I am starting to believe that D&D 4e and specifically D&D Insider = the Titanic, no one on the inside knew that it was a sinking ship until it hit the iceberg, but if anyone had been on the outside looking in they could have seen the danger clearly.
Charles
there is the obvious list of items that the subscription covers on the purchase page.
there is the obvious list of items that the subscription covers on the purchase page.
It is quite clear that the subscription page covers the items that have been currently released.
It is NOT quite clear whether the subscription covers to-be-released items like the Character Builder, etc. Previous D&D News Items have said these items will be released to "subscribers". As there is no other subscription service available or tier of subscriptions, one could easily assume that this means that subscribers will get access to this tool.
Since there is NO clarification on the subscription page regarding this issue, it's entirely up in the air what you're getting. It is certainly implied all over the place that the Character Builder, Visualizer, Game Table, and Dungeon Builder are part of A D&D Insider Subscription. As there is only one D&D Insider Subscription available for purchase, it's easy to see that one might feel that it probably includes those tools based on prior advertising.
IF this is not the case, and you need to pay more for these items, it is NOT clearly stated up front. There is NOT any indication that you won't get these items for signing up when they're finished.
I see advertising on the outside of a hotel that I get pizza if I rent a room... and the pizza is Coming Soon.
I rent a room, go inside (it says I can go inside and sleep on the bed, but it doesn't specifically say anything about pizza when I pay my fee) and later when the pizza shows up, I'm told I have to pay more for it. Or I needed to rent a BIGGER room to get pizza. A Bigger room that didn't even exist when I rented the first one, thinking there was pizza included in the original room's price.
Have I been deceived?
It is quite clear that the subscription page covers the items that have been currently released.
It is NOT quite clear whether the subscription covers to-be-released items like the Character Builder, etc. Previous D&D News Items have said these items will be released to "subscribers". As there is no other subscription service available or tier of subscriptions, one could easily assume that this means that subscribers will get access to this tool.
The subscription page is quite clear actually. It very clearly says exactly what you get access to with this subscription.
)' />Let me state it another way.
I see advertising on the outside of a hotel that I get pizza if I rent a room... and the pizza is Coming Soon.
I rent a room, go inside (it says I can go inside and sleep on the bed, but it doesn't specifically say anything about pizza when I pay my fee) and later when the pizza shows up, I'm told I have to pay more for it. Or I needed to rent a BIGGER room to get pizza. A Bigger room that didn't even exist when I rented the first one, thinking there was pizza included in the original room's price.
Have I been deceived?
"No.. bull... You were told: 'If you want a room, this is what it will cost, in the future, we will have bigger rooms, which you can upgrade to if you want them. If you only want the bigger room, they will be built later on, but we do have rooms available now.' Though honestly, it's more like apartments then hotel rooms."
Edit: "To be REALLY specific it was: 'We have apartments ready, but they aren't great apartments, so you can live in them for free while we improve. In the future, we will charge you for the apartment, so if you still want it, you can have it. We're also building deluxe apartments, which you can upgrade to, but it will cost more.'"
"No.. bull... You were told: 'If you want a room, this is what it will cost, in the future, we will have bigger rooms, which you can upgrade to if you want them. If you only want the bigger room, they will be built later on, but we do have rooms available now.' Though honestly, it's more like apartments then hotel rooms."
Edit: "To be REALLY specific it was: 'We have apartments ready, but they aren't great apartments, so you can live in them for free while we improve. In the future, we will charge you for the apartment, so if you still want it, you can have it. We're also building deluxe apartments, which you can upgrade to, but it will cost more.'"
Really the front page of D&DI tells you you will have to upgrade your subscription as more tools become available nope I don't see that there yes we all know if you dig around the site some you can find all the information you want. But honestly that should not be a requirement to make a reasonably informed decision . Were I to come to the site without knowing any better I would see the blocks advertising for the other tools and believe they were part of the total package and my monthly fee was going towards developing and maintaining them. There is no reason for me to believe when these tools become available my subscription will be raised.
Seriously this is as bad as the whole fiasco of not making it clear the tools will not be released with the books and it serves the same purpose to make sales they wouldn't be able to in a clearly informed situation. I guess I'm growing numb to the deceptive nature of WoTC as it is taking me longer and longer to realize every time.
The subscription page is quite clear actually. It very clearly says exactly what you get access to with this subscription.' alt='IMAGE(
Honestly it's not all that clear mudbunny the other tools are very clearly part of D&DI so if I subscribe to D&DI. Unless it says otherwise I am subscribing for those tools as well since there is no other subscription plan that is the obvious conclusion to draw.
In other news, the gladiator article is up and has as at least as much crunch as some books I bought last edition. I feel the exact opposite of cheated, whatever the word for that is.
I think the pricing is pretty clear. I subscribed and received exactly what I thought I would. This didn't require any extraordinary research.
In other news, the gladiator article is up and has as at least as much crunch as some books I bought last edition. I feel the exact opposite of cheated, whatever the word for that is.
10-07-07 That's your join date. I figure you've had plenty of time by now to figure out whats included and what is not. Try looking at this from the prospective of someone who has say seen the you tube video or saw this at a con or bought the books and went online to subscribe. They are all expecting an entirely. different set of tools, and those tools are still listed if you click the link it says coming soon but they are advertised right there on the main page as a part of D&D Insider with no inclination that they will be an additional service on top of what you are currently paying for.
Really the front page of D&DI tells you you will have to upgrade your subscription as more tools become available nope I don't see that there yes we all know if you dig around the site some you can find all the information you want. But honestly that should not be a requirement to make a reasonably informed decision . Were I to come to the site without knowing any better I would see the blocks advertising for the other tools and believe they were part of the total package and my monthly fee was going towards developing and maintaining them. There is no reason for me to believe when these tools become available my subscription will be raised.
Seriously this is as bad as the whole fiasco of not making it clear the tools will not be released with the books and it serves the same purpose to make sales they wouldn't be able to in a clearly informed situation. I guess I'm growing numb to the deceptive nature of WoTC as it is taking me longer and longer to realize every time.
"I say again, Caveat Emptor... It is the burden of the buyer to make an informed decision, and WotC, while not excellently, has provided the information which is their burden to provide. It's under D&DI news, and has been discussed in 11 articles. Since you said 'informed decision', people making a reasonably informed decision would LOOK OVER anything they plan to buy to see exactly what they were getting. I mean, would you just buy a magazine subscription if I handed you one of those little postcards from within the magazine? Would you subscribe to WoW or Warhammer Online or DDO based solely on a page-long ad in a magazine? If so, refer back to my comment on how much you deserve to drop your money in the toilet. In fact, send it my way, I mean, if you're going to throw it around, I'd like some of that action."
"I say again, Caveat Emptor... It is the burden of the buyer to make an informed decision, and WotC, while not excellently, has provided the information which is their burden to provide.
i consider myself pretty well informed.
however, there are things i can not say, which are numerous:
a) will you, as a subscriber, get access to the other insider tools without additional charge, or will the charge go up and you'll have to convert? (probably, wotc knows as much as i do about that - they said prices will go up, but not if the web content subscription gets a bonus or something)
b) how is access to past issues of your subscription handled? can you download them at a later time, after sub ran out?
c) will wotc try to DRM any of their content, making it unusable on my current e-book-reader?
d) when will the other insider applications be released, is there a timescale for it, or is just "when it's done"?
e) will there be any print compilations, or paid access to back-issues one at a time? (there seem to be plans, but nothing official was announced)
f) will wotc stay on time with their future issues of dungeon and dragon? they had a hard time keeping up to schedule, and only time knows.
g) will i ever get something for buying digitally what i already own in paper? because honestly, buying stuff like AV or martial power has not much appeal if you also pay for the compendium. since neither AV nor martial power will contain lots of usable fluff text around the paragon paths items etc, you can as well go without them and buy 6 months of subscription instead.
since i like books more than i like e-paper, i'll stay with the books for the time being. however, i see this having a huge impact on some book-buyers, which might as well never buy any book again.
7 open questions from me, and i was following ddi progress right from the beginning.
"I say again, Caveat Emptor... It is the burden of the buyer to make an informed decision, and WotC, while not excellently, has provided the information which is their burden to provide. It's under D&DI news, and has been discussed in 11 articles. Since you said 'informed decision', people making a reasonably informed decision would LOOK OVER anything they plan to buy to see exactly what they were getting. I mean, would you just buy a magazine subscription if I handed you one of those little postcards from within the magazine? Would you subscribe to WoW or Warhammer Online or DDO based solely on a page-long ad in a magazine? If so, refer back to my comment on how much you deserve to drop your money in the toilet. In fact, send it my way, I mean, if you're going to throw it around, I'd like some of that action."
So people that don't hunt through pages of pages of online information to understand what's going on with the product deserve to get ripped off cool. glad to know where your coming from. Reasonably informed means reading the contract your signing not 11 other pages. I predict there will be plenty of people lining up for you to call stupid soon enough so have fun with that. Personally I find the way it's being handled intentionally misleading much like the wheres waldo edition of oh ya the game table won't be available at launch.
10-07-07 That's your join date. I figure you've had plenty of time by now to figure out whats included and what is not. Try looking at this from the prospective of someone who has say seen the you tube video or saw this at a con or bought the books and went online to subscribe. They are all expecting an entirely. different set of tools, and those tools are still listed if you click the link it says coming soon but they are advertised right there on the main page as a part of D&D Insider with no inclination that they will be an additional service on top of what you are currently paying for.
OK, some people are/will be confused. Again though, one of the first articles up (gladiator) has as much crunch as a lot of $30 sourcebooks did in the past. I understand people would love to pay $60 for a year of everything, but that's unreasonable in 2008. The e-mags give a lot of good material that you can keep forever and the compendium gives you everything, even books you don't own, in a searchable format as long as you subscribe. I don't think $5 a month gets you much more than that anywhere. The price and quality/quantity of services are reasonable, even if some people would prefer that a huge warning to prospective customers be plastered all over the website.
The subscription page is quite clear actually. It very clearly says exactly what you get access to with this subscription.
Right, and it doesn't say anything else about the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, Dungeon Builder, and Game Table, which are mentioned here as clearly part of the D&D Insider Package.
My point is, these four tools have been advertised as part of D&D Insider, yet when you purchase the subscription that is currently available, there is no indication on that page that those four tools will cost extra to access.
WOTC is advertising these tools as the part of the package, yet is selling a package that will not include those tools when they become available!!!
Yes, you can go digging through news posts and figure that out, but if you go to WOTC's main page, hit the main D&D Insider section (that advertises these tools) and then the Subscription page (which doesn't mention these tools at all), you have the false impression that you get these tools at some point if you sign up.
Which you won't, unless you apparently upgrade your subscription at a later date. And you only find that out if you dig through the News posts and Forum posts.
Any time a seller's defense is "Buyer Beware", you've got a clear communication gap. Fix it. The subscription page needs to be clarified. How hard is it to add a clear warning that these tools will not be included with the purchased subscription and are only available as an upgrade???
However, the image mudbunny linked included the actual list of "bonus tools" with their specific names. So that should make it clear, but I could still see a situation where somebody would remain confused.
I would think a person thus confused would poke around the site a bit for more information, but who knows.
I would think a person thus confused would poke around the site a bit for more information, but who knows.
the problem is, in one of the articles they even state that the other tools will be "added" to the insider later. whether or not the conclusion that can be drawn from that is valid should not be the issue - there should be no guess or thinking work involved in such a subscription.
you said "No, they shouldn't, but not everyone manages to read every single thing. I believe I said that."
what you are getting is labled quite plainly about the purchase options.
you are saying that some people cannot manage to read this obvious paragraph.
those people would be dumb people. that you seemed to be advocating the protection of
People skip over stuff all the damn time, that doesn't make them dumb. You want to call them dumb, that's fine, but don't use me as your mouthpiece, because that's not what I said.
Don't hide behind others when you voice your opinions.
People skip over stuff all the damn time, that doesn't make them dumb. You want to call them dumb, that's fine, but don't use me as your mouthpiece, because that's not what I said.
Don't hide behind others when you voice your opinions.
I'd use you as a mouthpiece.
Actually, I wouldn't.
When I was in college my buddies and I attempted to brew some mead. It was Milwaukee so there were microbrewing shops all over the place. We let this jug of mead ferment for about eight months, which might sound like a long time but it's actually about four years and four months too short for mead. And I think we used too much water. And I think the washed out Miller Lite empties we used to bottle the stuff weren't entirely sanitary.
Anyway, once we actually tasted the final product we were forced to amend our chosen name for the brew, "Thor's Might", to the far more appropriate "Loki's Vile Wrath".
Since then I can't taste mead without gagging.
When I was in college my buddies and I attempted to brew some mead. It was Milwaukee so there were microbrewing shops all over the place. We let this jug of mead ferment for about eight months, which might sound like a long time but it's actually about four years and four months too short for mead. And I think we used too much water. And I think the washed out Miller Lite empties we used to bottle the stuff weren't entirely sanitary.
Anyway, once we actually tasted the final product we were forced to amend our chosen name for the brew, "Thor's Might", to the far more appropriate "Loki's Vile Wrath".
Since then I can't taste mead without gagging.
i consider myself pretty well informed.
however, there are things i can not say, which are numerous:
I'll answer the questions that I can for you.
a) will you, as a subscriber, get access to the other insider tools without additional charge, or will the charge go up and you'll have to convert? (probably, wotc knows as much as i do about that - they said prices will go up, but not if the web content subscription gets a bonus or something)
Randy stated in his last newsletter that they don't have an answer for this. They want to see how the initial release goes, and the then they will figure out what to do about this.
b) how is access to past issues of your subscription handled? can you download them at a later time, after sub ran out?
If you decide to cancel your subscription, you will still be able to access all of the articles that were released during the time you were subscribed, and those that were released during the month you initially subscribed. So if you subscribe from Oct 14th until Nov 13th, and then cancel, you will still be able to see all articles from October, and the articles from Nov 1st-13th.
Solice posted about this in one of the threads on the forum. I apologize for not having a direct reference. I'll see if I can dig one up later.
c) will wotc try to DRM any of their content, making it unusable on my current e-book-reader?
Currently, there is no DRM on their content. No word has been given guaranteeing that it will stay this way, but thats how it is now.
d) when will the other insider applications be released, is there a timescale for it, or is just "when it's done"?
No timescale has been released, and they don't plan to release one.
I'd use you as a mouthpiece.Actually, I wouldn't.
When I was in college my buddies and I attempted to brew some mead. It was Milwaukee so there were microbrewing shops all over the place. We let this jug of mead ferment for about eight months, which might sound like a long time but it's actually about four years and four months too short for mead. And I think we used too much water. And I think the washed out Miller Lite empties we used to bottle the stuff weren't entirely sanitary.
Anyway, once we actually tasted the final product we were forced to amend our chosen name for the brew, "Thor's Might", to the far more appropriate "Loki's Vile Wrath".
Since then I can't taste mead without gagging.
I'll answer the questions that I can for you.
see, he's a DDI NEWSGUIDE and doesn't know those answers.
but thanks for trying. b) yes, it was said that you will have back access, but it is written nowhere. forums posts should not count in regards to that, only hard facts by wotc, randy and not CM or CS - they do good work, however, they are not that much involved in management that i'd take their word completely for granted.
c) i'd like to have a guarantee that it stays like this.
still, my point stays - even when you are pretty well informed, there are lots of open questions, which at least to me, would be important.
b) yes, it was said that you will have back access, but it is written nowhere. forums posts should not count in regards to that, only hard facts by wotc, randy and not CM or CS - they do good work, however, they are not that much involved in management that i'd take their word completely for granted.
Access to back issues with a current subscription appears to be no, purchase of back issues appear to be yes, however price and how to have not been announced.
There has not been a clean and clear answer to the back issues after going fee. The closest we do have is from DDI #11
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20081015a
5. How will the compilations work if you sign up mid-month?
As a subscriber you will always get one pair of issue compilations. If you sign up in mid-November then you’ll get the end-of-November compilations and you’ll get to see the early December articles, but if you cancel at the end of your one month then you would not get the end-of-December compilations. Note, however, that you will get to see all of the November articles including the ones that were initially unveiled before you became a subscriber.
This is as close as one can get right now of no access to back issues by just being a subscriber. That being because there is no indication Oct. compilations will be available to any that wait until Nov. to join.
There are people who are on WOTC's side
and
There are people on less knowledgeable Consumers' side
Neither side will conceed to the Other.
P.S. I believe that the DDI Features will be released just after "Mastertools
:D :D :D
Obviously the Discussion shows a clear division of Customers
There are people who are on WOTC's side
and
There are people on less knowledgeable Consumers' side
Neither side will conceed to the Other.
It's not a case of WotC vs the Consumers, and framing it like that only serves to increase the tension and antagonism in the forums.
It is a case of people who think it is clear, and people who think that it isn't.
It's not a case of WotC vs the Consumers, and framing it like that only serves to increase the tension and antagonism in the forums.
It is a case of people who think it is clear, and people who think that it isn't.
Is 2
:D
OK, some people are/will be confused. Again though, one of the first articles up (gladiator) has as much crunch as a lot of $30 sourcebooks did in the past. I understand people would love to pay $60 for a year of everything, but that's unreasonable in 2008. The e-mags give a lot of good material that you can keep forever and the compendium gives you everything, even books you don't own, in a searchable format as long as you subscribe. I don't think $5 a month gets you much more than that anywhere. The price and quality/quantity of services are reasonable, even if some people would prefer that a huge warning to prospective customers be plastered all over the website.
I totally agree that it is worth 5 dollars a month but that is not the price it's 8 dollars a month 8 dollars a month but that's not the point I believe the content is great for what it is, and I'm not arguing the price point right now.
it wouldn't take much to make it very very clear as to what is included it would simply take a tag line such as
(We are working hard to improve the insider experience with more tools such as the character builder and the online tabletop. When these features are available the price of subscription may be subject to change.) Its very positive while not shackling them into a decision at the moment on the pricing plan.
OK heres the deal....all pro DDI people will stop quoting the prices for DDI at their monthly value if bought a year at a time if anti DDI poeple will stop comparing it to MMO's
I stopped that months ago :D but I'm actually not anti D&DI I'm anti deceptive marketing department at WOTC. I intend to get a subscription when wizards has fulfilled it's obligation to the customers that bought the books expecting a game table to play with and clear up a few minor concerns. I do feel it's overpriced but there are people I'd like to play with that I can't and I'll grumble and bear with it. Had they handled this entire thing differently I'd be subscribed now. I really really 4th ed, and I'd really like to give them my money.
I'd really like the dragon and dungeon content as I said it is good for what it is.
but I can't condone the way they have handled this and the only way I can make that heard is by boycotting them until they fix it.
I ordered the 4th Edition gift set from Amazon. I enjoyed flipping through the volumes, and the resultant wave of nostalgia. But D&D Insider has been another story entirely.
From my perspective, based solely on the above, the overwhelming core of D&D Insider was (and is) the virtual gaming table. The other aspects seemed very tangential. I was surprised when, despite these videos on You Tube and despite the ads in the game books explicitly touting the ability to play online, when I tried to log on to D&DI initially in June, it just didn’t work, with no explanation at all. That’s when I first drilled down in to these message boards, with some effort, and learned what had happened. I was disappointed (and a bit mystified) by that experience, and then by the fact that the initial “company line” (after the launch date was missed) seemed to be a slightly defensive one that, because PDFs of a few magazine articles had been posted (later supplemented by a “rules compendium”), D&D Insider had in fact “gone live.”
I am afraid that I view the screen grab posted in another message above in this thread, with a sentence of drab plain text circled just below a set of boxes with all of the various aspects of D&DI enumerated (including the ones not yet enabled), as a furtherance of this oddly unclear explanation of the situation by WoTC. I strongly agree with the other post-ers above who suggested adding a clearer “coming soon” message, explaining unambiguously that the core elements of D&DI are not yet enabled (but that as a result it is currently being offered at a discounted price), but are coming.
I am sure that there are many, many “old fans” like me who are befuddled by the presentation on the website, and who remain so because they haven’t bothered to drill down into these boards for a fuller, more accurate explanation of the situation.
Best of luck. I really hope that this ends up working out!
And everyone is condoning WoTC for this when in actuallity it is digital river that is causing the problems.
Digital River has nothing to do with this and if they do it's still ultimately wizards decisions that are the ones that matter. Digital River does what wizards tell them to do. I highly doubt they have anything to do with the sites layout. This is a professional company they alone bear the burden of responsibility If I have potential customers complaining to me about something I don't tell them hey I don't know whats going on my employees did that all on their own. I take responsibility because I am in charge. I apologize and I fix the problem. This isn't school we are adults this is a business. They can blame Digital River for whatever they want that crap don't float. In the end they decided to go through Digital River They are responsible for whatever that company does in their name.
Digital River has nothing to do with this and if they do it's still ultimately wizards decisions that are the ones that matter. Digital River does what wizards tell them to do. I highly doubt they have anything to do with the sites layout. This is a professional company they alone bear the burden of responsibility If I have potential customers complaining to me about something I don't tell them hey I don't know whats going on my employees did that all on their own. I take responsibility because I am in charge. I apologize and I fix the problem. This isn't school we are adults this is a business. They can blame Digital River for whatever they want that crap don't float. In the end they decided to go through Digital River They are responsible for whatever that company does in their name.
"Honestly, depending on what your employees did that is being thrown in your face, I wouldn't take that crap... I dunno, I kinda think that every person is their own entity, and that the blame should fall on the shoulders of the person who is to blame... Society, in its infinite wisdom (read: idiocy), seems to think differently. What I do agree with you on, is that the responsibility in this case does lie with WotC. Could it have been clearer? Yes. Do I think that it is so unclear now? No."
The current price is for what is here, now, and perhaps the previews of the upcoming...
But, as had been hinted/told elsewhere, the character generator, called a "Builder" here, visualizer, DM tools, DM Table and such are going to be a separate subscription.
It isn't worth it with the original price that is now available, and the additional content isn't worth the additional charge, whatever it may be.
This is starting to sound like another, "This isn't worth X dollars to me, so it must be a scam," thread. Subjectively valuing something at an amount way below its price doesn't make it a rip-off. Not reading the description of a product doesn't equate to the seller cheating you. No one person's valuation of something determines the fair price. Every product will have potential consumers who will not buy it unless the price drops.
Once again It is not a mater price this is a matter of misdirection I had my group who knows some of whats been going on but have not been reading the forums check out the main page 3 out of 5 thought that the tools were now functional and were for sale but couldn't find out where to get the full suite one immediately noticed the different color tabs and went digging and saw that they were coming soon and was amazed when I told him the price would increase when the tools became available as there is absolutely no indication that this is the case on any of those pages. The last was going to go ahead and subscribe just for the mags and the compendium until I informed him of the auto renew policy.
I have not been following the news about DDI Insider daily.
I am not a WOTC apologist, I was never happy about how the GSL was handled.
Nevertheless, I subscribed to DDI. I knew what I was getting. I was not confused. The presentation of the information was not confusing to me.
Its just as easy to generalize "people who don't follow the forums daily" as it is to generalize "forum regulars".
I'm hearing a lot of unwillingness to own or take responsibility for not looking at what you're buying. Admittedly that requires accepting some blame, and that's hard thing to do... but it wasn't really confusing from my perspective.
I am not a forum regular.
I have not been following the news about DDI Insider daily.
I am not a WOTC apologist, I was never happy about how the GSL was handled.
Nevertheless, I subscribed to DDI. I knew what I was getting. I was not confused. The presentation of the information was not confusing to me.
Its just as easy to generalize "people who don't follow the forums daily" as it is to generalize "forum regulars".
I'm hearing a lot of unwillingness to own or take responsibility for not looking at what you're buying. Admittedly that requires accepting some blame, and that's hard thing to do... but it wasn't really confusing from my perspective.
"My point exactly... This is a life lesson, spend your money wisely (or at least be happy with how you spend your money). Part of that is, know what you're paying for... If you don't want to research (which is not that arduous a task) the product you're paying for, boy do I have a deal for you."
I am not a forum regular.
I have not been following the news about DDI Insider daily.
I am not a WOTC apologist, I was never happy about how the GSL was handled.
Nevertheless, I subscribed to DDI. I knew what I was getting. I was not confused. The presentation of the information was not confusing to me.
Its just as easy to generalize "people who don't follow the forums daily" as it is to generalize "forum regulars".
I'm hearing a lot of unwillingness to own or take responsibility for not looking at what you're buying. Admittedly that requires accepting some blame, and that's hard thing to do... but it wasn't really confusing from my perspective.
Ive seen you around here for quite some time you have been following the news perhaps not daily or even weekly but I'm quite sure you were well aware of what D&DI includes before you went to the sign in page I'm glad your happy with it I'm sure many are. but what they have been advertising in the past and what they offer now are very different and they should make that very clear.
Did you tell him you can turn off auto-renew? Yes, I know it's a PITA to do so.
Yes I did and he said the same thing I did when first reading it It's BS there's no guarantee they won't continue your subscription they can delay canceling your subscription indefinitely. Now this may well not be the intention Although it's realy the only reason I could see to do it that way.
Yes I did and he said the same thing I did when first reading it It's BS there's no guarantee they won't continue your subscription they can delay canceling your subscription indefinitely. Now this may well not be the intention Although it's realy the only reason I could see to do it that way.
Except that that's illegal...
Yes I did and he said the same thing I did when first reading it It's BS there's no guarantee they won't continue your subscription they can delay canceling your subscription indefinitely. Now this may well not be the intention Although it's realy the only reason I could see to do it that way.
There is no guarantee that when a computer processes the auto-renewal cancellation that they won't delay it as well.
I find it really interesting that as soon as a human gets involved, people start assuimg all sorts of nefarious plots and plans to defraud subscribers. Yet when it is a computer that processes it automatically, there is no chance that there are evil plots and plans to defraud subscribers.
"I want everything for free" is basically the underlying problem.
And people are stupid for feeling that way.
It's the Walmart issue really. I don't buy from crapmart because they often conveinently forget to pay their employees. And their policies pretty much ensure a loss on the manufacturer's part by default. "but they are so cheap!" And that's not a good thing at this point.
Except that that's illegal...
except this is not true if you read the terms and conditions. It says quite clearly that when you send them the form they should get back to you within 2 days not they will. The cancel feature offers no refund in the case that they fail to act in time they can simply state a myriad of tech or personnel problems and continue gleefully charging you for a product you don't want just like our great friends at other disreputable companies such as Columbia house.
There is no guarantee that when a computer processes the auto-renewal cancellation that they won't delay it as well.
I find it really interesting that as soon as a human gets involved, people start assuimg all sorts of nefarious plots and plans to defraud subscribers. Yet when it is a computer that processes it automatically, there is no chance that there are evil plots and plans to defraud subscribers.
Well if there was another viable reason they would want to run this in the way they are doing you might have a point but quite frankly there is not. Look I don't always assume human interaction = nefarious plot and for you to frame it in such a way is quite insulting I do question a company's motives on everything when that company has in recent months lied and deceived customers to make a quick buck I have seen one possible explanation that they did it this way asides mine and that is that WOTC is stupid and I really don't see that.
Go figure right?
"I want everything for free" is basically the underlying problem.
And people are stupid for feeling that way.
It's the Walmart issue really. I don't buy from crapmart because they often conveinently forget to pay their employees. And their policies pretty much ensure a loss on the manufacturer's part by default. "but they are so cheap!" And that's not a good thing at this point.
Most of the people posting around here do not feel that they should not be charging for the services they provide and most of the ones that do are only there because WOTC has led them to believe it would be the case
Here are several factors
A) WOTC has released most of the content now being charged for in the magazines as free web content for years under 3.x edition. in fact there are now generally less updates now that they are charging. There used to be good crunch free at the website in 3x days
B) The current D&DI was announced to remain free until the entire package was ready. They thinly disguised charging for it as giving us what we've been asking for in a different package the web content only, but they have made no commitment to keeping just the web content when the full suite becomes available
C) A large chunk of the magazines are only viable to the minority of gamers DM's Dragon magazine and certain features of dungeon magazine are useless to many why should they pay for them.
D) People have no confidence in companies that deceive them and consumer confidence takes a lot of time and effort to repair
As for your Wall Mart reference I had not heard anything about these things you are claiming so I can't confirm it. But they have lost a lot of my faith as well by putting in salary caps for the average working employees and not doing the same for executives and many many other things.
Most of the people posting around here do not feel that they should not be charging for the services they provide and most of the ones that do are only there because WOTC has led them to believe it would be the case
Here are several factors
A) WOTC has released most of the content now being charged for in the magazines as free web content for years under 3.x edition. in fact there are now generally less updates now that they are charging. There used to be good crunch free at the website in 3x days
B) The current D&DI was announced to remain free until the entire package was ready. They thinly disguised charging for it as giving us what we've been asking for in a different package the web content only, but they have made no commitment to keeping just the web content when the full suite becomes available
C) A large chunk of the magazines are only viable to the minority of gamers DM's Dragon magazine and certain features of dungeon magazine are useless to many why should they pay for them.
D) People have no confidence in companies that deceive them and consumer confidence takes a lot of time and effort to repair
As for your Wall Mart reference I had not heard anything about these things you are claiming so I can't confirm it. But they have lost a lot of my faith as well by putting in salary caps for the average working employees and not doing the same for executives and many many other things.
So, to sum up, you just don't want to pay for it.
Then don't.
"So what you want is not to pay for something that people are spending their time to create for you. Where the hell do you get the balls to have that sort of sense of entitlement? I hate people who think they are 'entitled' to crap that they aren't... If you wanna complain that you are entitled to more money for the work you do, there's a good chance you're right, this economic system sucks. That does not, however, make it okay to demand that others do not make money for work that they did..."
There is no guarantee that when a computer processes the auto-renewal cancellation that they won't delay it as well.
I find it really interesting that as soon as a human gets involved, people start assuimg all sorts of nefarious plots and plans to defraud subscribers. Yet when it is a computer that processes it automatically, there is no chance that there are evil plots and plans to defraud subscribers.
I looked for this post because I had thought about replies to some issues you raised.
Points.
1) The signup page says one does not have to select auto renew, there however have not been any report of somebody signing up without agreeing to auto renew.
2) Computers do indeed make errors on their own, at an estimated 1 time out of 1,000,000,000 calculations. Humans have a higher error rate (including writing programs for computers).
3) Humans provide the instructions to users as to how a program works.
All in all a computer can be better trusted then a human. Human factor is less subject to trust. An auto Cancel might not work, but in most cases it would be because human did not code it correctly. There of course does exist pure electronic error, transmit data corruption, validation error (though that might also be coding some times) and so on. Thus it is logical to infer adding the human element the error rate increases.
Oh up to two days for human response I do not find credible. CustServe apparently does not work the weekends, which means a request sent late Friday (after custserve goes home) will not be processed until Monday or perhaps Tuesday (If custserve does not work on legal holidays), more then 2 days for a reply.
The only plus side we have seen is custserve clearly processed all requests received before close of Friday have been turned off. Of course depending on terms signed up for we might find out in one month, three months or a year that the auto renew was not turned off.
i guess they will be fast then in terminating your content access.
I looked for this post because I had thought about replies to some issues you raised.
Points.
1) The signup page says one does not have to select auto renew, there however have not been any report of somebody signing up without agreeing to auto renew.
And this is something that has been pointed out to Solice. This does, however, have nothing to do with my point about humans being no better (or worse) than humans when it comes to cancelling auto-renew
2) Computers do indeed make errors on their own, at an estimated 1 time out of 1,000,000,000 calculations. Humans have a higher error rate (including writing programs for computers).
3) Humans provide the instructions to users as to how a program works.
All in all a computer can be better trusted then a human.
Don't you see how your point #3 makes your statement that a computer can be trusted more than a human moot??
You appear to be starting with the opinion that if it is a human that does the cancellation, they are doing it to screw the customer. When then do you make the jump that the same human, when giving specifications to a programmer to program a piece of software to do cancellations, will all of a sudden say "Oh, it's for a computer. Must be honest now?"
You can't make that assumption.
The only plus side we have seen is custserve clearly processed all requests received before close of Friday have been turned off. Of course depending on terms signed up for we might find out in one month, three months or a year that the auto renew was not turned off.
The same goes for computer processing. It is only at the time at which the next payment would be processed that you find out if the auto-renew actually *has* been done or not.
And this is something that has been pointed out to Solice. This does, however, have nothing to do with my point about humans being no better (or worse) than humans when it comes to cancelling auto-renew
*blink*?
Don't you see how your point #3 makes your statement that a computer can be trusted more than a human moot??
Point 3 tends to address a new application, but yes the hazzard exists in every program. The human element.
You appear to be starting with the opinion that if it is a human that does the cancellation, they are doing it to screw the customer. When then do you make the jump that the same human, when giving specifications to a programmer to program a piece of software to do cancellations, will all of a sudden say "Oh, it's for a computer. Must be honest now?"
No where do I say human cancellation is designed to screw the customer. All I indicated that human factor allows for error rate increase. WotC after all has not done much to inspire trust. Others clearly believe WotC are out to get them.
You can't make that assumption.
Good, because I did not make it.
The same goes for computer processing. It is only at the time at which the next payment would be processed that you find out if the auto-renew actually *has* been done or not.
This I well know which is why I mentioned it. We do not know yet how reliable the program is, we just know program as described does not work as described (that is one does not have to select auto renew to signuo). If the program however fails it will because of its instructions given to it by a human. It will not be computer fault it will be human fault (conspiracy theorists of course can go for plot). *grin*
"So... what you people are saying is... You want a web-content package, but not until the rest of it is ready, so that you don't have to pay for any of it, until it's all there. That's total crap, that's like going a to a restaurant and saying: 'I don't want appetizers included in my entree, because I might not want an appetizer. Okay, well since the appetizers are ready, but the entree isn't, I want you to serve me free appetizers until the entree is done, and remember, do NOT charge it to my entree.'"
"So what you want is not to pay for something that people are spending their time to create for you. Where the hell do you get the balls to have that sort of sense of entitlement? I hate people who think they are 'entitled' to crap that they aren't... If you wanna complain that you are entitled to more money for the work you do, there's a good chance you're right, this economic system sucks. That does not, however, make it okay to demand that others do not make money for work that they did..."
I said none of that I gave reasons for the facts of why people are ****** off thank you very much.Where do you get the balls to tell people what they are or aren't entitled to anyway. I Hate people who use entitled as a spin word any time there's an argument on value or price of something. If said people feel they are entitled to something it's because WOTC told them they were. They announced about a month or 2 cant remember for sure after release that the magazines and compendium would be free until the whole package was finished no one made them do that they made that call ends up that's just another lie.
I do personally feel they are charging to much always have it may not be much but it's definitely higher than the value of the product IMHO. that said It's not the price of the product that keeps me from buying. It it's the constant blatant dishonesty coming from the company.I purchase things from company's I trust all it would have taken to have me on board right now is for them at any point is to have handled this situation with honesty and integrity if you say your going to do something do it. If you can't get it done say so. Seriously lets list off the BS here.
1) The D&D tools will be released along side the books
Didn't happen they new well full at least a month in advance that this wasn't the case and made 1 mention to it in Ampersand while continuing running adds that said the opposite no attempt to contact retailers to tell them not to put out the game day fliers or any real attempts to update customers they had been leading to believe those tools would be there from the start.
2) As soon as the books went out there should have been some explanation of the missing tools and there should have been some kind of coming soon logo put up on the D&DI page
Didn't happen it took a full week of people howling and gnashing teeth in the forums contacting game reviewers and getting the word out before WOTC did any of this and it was around a month before anyone who doesn't read these forums were aware of what was going on. and got pretty much told that the information was available for those who dug around deep enough to find it so it was pretty much our bad.
3) They announced the magazines and compendium would be free until the rest of the tools were complete and added in the weak tools to shut up decent.
Didn't happen they changed their mind most likely because they were told to put up or shut up. So I personally don't hold this against them as much. I am ****** that they worded it to say they were giving the people what they want but they will not commit to continue that service. If they are offering this because it's what people want they should have no problem continuing to do so. They are offering it because they have to make some money now to show the suits it's worth it to continue.
4) They put D&DI up for sale was crystal clear on what it included now and would in the future.
Didn't happen the fact that were arguing this proves it could be much clearer. they can say they haven't worked it out as much as they like I don't really buy that they want 15 dollars for the total package and I doubt that will change.
5) They put in an auto renew option for our convenience
No they put in one of the oldest and most hated deceitful marketing tricks known to man. You can't chose to disable auto renew on a online application without human interaction name some reputable companies that do this please.
All in all I really Love the new rules, I really want this product, and I really want to buy it. But I can't do business with a Company that has proved to me they are dishonest. So until they change their tune and make a commitment to being a reputable company they lose my money, and the money of anyone I can convince to join me. Not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things. There's plenty of people out there to make up for that. But that's the extent of the impact one man can make. Hopefully there are others out there doing the same thing and we can perhaps at some point influence the company to act with respect honesty and integrity.
So, to sum up, you just don't want to pay for it.
Then don't.
So, to sum up, you didn't bother reading what I said.
Then please don't bother to reply.
simple solution against auto-renew-"fraud": call your cc company, have the money refunded (you can do this like up to 6 months after your cc was charged), inform wizards that you do so since they failed to cancel your autorenew.
i guess they will be fast then in terminating your content access.
Easier way is to not give people willing to do this your money in the first place it sends a much stronger message.
"You know what annoys me, people who turn words like 'entitlement' into pariah words, because they don't want to admit how apt they are at describing how stupid people act. Actually, it would also be apt to add '-ly' to stupid in that last sentence, because in general, people are very good at being idiots."
"I've never had a problem dealing with auto-renew on any website. Maybe you have, then fine, since DnDI hasn't been in pay mode for long enough for you to even get charged more than once, you cannot honestly tell me you've been auto-charged after cancelling auto-renew. If you have, there's a bigger problem than auto-renew."
"You know what annoys me, people who turn words like 'entitlement' into pariah words, because they don't want to admit how apt they are at describing how stupid people act. Actually, it would also be apt to add '-ly' to stupid in that last sentence, because in general, people are very good at being idiots."
You still have not named one online subscription you deal with that requires human interaction to cancel auto renewal. and you won't because you would not knowingly give someone either that stupid or that greedy your money.
Yes these words used to mean something before the talking heads and other people started bandying them around much like Communist and REAL AMERICAN they are less than worthless now as you and many others that use them clearly have no Idea what they mean. Entitlement means you expect something for nothing for no apparent reason you just do. There are plenty of people out there that fit the bill but your looking in the wrong place for them.
Being that wizards announced these Items would be free until such time as the full array of tools was up and running. They are not there yet so of course some people are a bit upset that Wizards has once again reneged on it's commitment. While I doubt they really had a choice, It's not hard to see why people are ******.
The only thing I'm actually annoyed by in that regard is the big announcement stating that they were listening and based on that feedback decided to make the web content available giving the Idea that there would be 2 tiers to D&DI when they clearly just decided to start selling what they had.
You still have not named one online subscription you deal with that requires human interaction to cancel auto renewal. and you won't because you would not knowingly give someone either that stupid or that greedy your money.
Not for online stuff, but every time that I have ordered a subscription to my local newspaper, they put it on auto-renew. Every time I have called them to cancel, they have processed it via a real person.
Not for online stuff, but every time that I have ordered a subscription to my local newspaper, they put it on auto-renew. Every time I have called them to cancel, they have processed it via a real person.
I use to work for a subscription house...we were great for CS, the best I ever worked for...if you signed up for a newsletter online though it put you on auto renew. Atleast 1 time per week I would get a call complaining...we use to make fun of people at the office that would have the nerve to complain about something they could cancle if they wanted, especialy when we had internal numbers showing more people kept it then turned it off...
My original postings are only there to help WotC. If you take a step back away from your fandom and look at the whole D&D 4 picture, you can see that just by adding a few words on the sibscription page, you can make sure that potential customers are happy.
From my experience, it is better to have a customer happy, than unhappy. Most happy customers will not go n to tell people how happy they are with your product (unless they are asked), but MOST unhappy customers will try and tell everyone they meet that that they are unhappy with your product.
The best way to do this (for this particular instance) is to make sure that when someone clicks on the Subscribe Here link on the right hand top, that the digital insider news item is displayed or linked somehow. Even a CLICK HERE to see what exactly the current Digital Insider subscription covers.
No one can honestly say that something like this a bad idea. This is not rocket science, it is basic customer service. Doesn't every company want happy customers? Who cares that only 1 in 10 people have to click the link or read that particular information. It is there, on that page, and there is no digging anywhere to go and find it.
It is all about usability. However, the D&D website, IMO has never really taken usablilty seriously, or the site would be easier to navigate through.
You still have not named one online subscription you deal with that requires human interaction to cancel auto renewal. and you won't because you would not knowingly give someone either that stupid or that greedy your money.
Yes these words used to mean something before the talking heads and other people started bandying them around much like Communist and REAL AMERICAN they are less than worthless now as you and many others that use them clearly have no Idea what they mean. Entitlement means you expect something for nothing for no apparent reason you just do. There are plenty of people out there that fit the bill but your looking in the wrong place for them.
Being that wizards announced these Items would be free until such time as the full array of tools was up and running. They are not there yet so of course some people are a bit upset that Wizards has once again reneged on it's commitment. While I doubt they really had a choice, It's not hard to see why people are ******.
The only thing I'm actually annoyed by in that regard is the big announcement stating that they were listening and based on that feedback decided to make the web content available giving the Idea that there would be 2 tiers to D&DI when they clearly just decided to start selling what they had.
"Actually, your definition of entitlement is wrong. I could just as easily say 'I feel entitled to getting for a penny'. I wouldn't be getting something for nothing. Entitlement means you feel deserving of something, which is definitely not the case here. You did nothing to EARN free material. WotC's employees are, however, producing this material at the cost of their own free time. They, in turn, should be paid for it, it's called a job. WotC can't pay people with money that doesn't exist, nor should they be expected to pay people for something that isn't earning them revenue. It's just the way the world works, it's a pathetic, idiotic system, but nonetheless, it holds."
"Now, I don't disagree WotC could be MORE clear, and those of you saying just that, fine, I'm not arguing with you. I'm only returning the courtesy of being a pain in the ass to the people who just whine about how difficult life is when they aren't getting handouts. It's simple, someone provides a product, you pay for it if you want it; if you're not completely sure you want to pay for it, you research it so you know what you're getting into. If you don't, you lose your money, and you can whine about it all you like, WotC is not to blame for your carelessness."
"So yes, WotC should simply be clearer about things, and they have been working towards that... I am happy to see things progress, slowly but surely, towards their goal. I hope WotC continues to try to better our experience, but does so at their own pace, to ensure the quality of their products. I, and many others I'm sure, will pay to support their endeavors, and ensure we continue to see 4th edition surpass the jumbled mess of crap that was 3e."
Ive seen you around here for quite some time you have been following the news perhaps not daily or even weekly but I'm quite sure you were well aware of what D&DI includes before you went to the sign in page I'm glad your happy with it I'm sure many are. but what they have been advertising in the past and what they offer now are very different and they should make that very clear.
Hmmm. I wouldn't and couldn't consider myself a regular. But all definitions being relative, I concede that I might be a regular to you.
But if you're allegeding that I post daily, weekly, or that I can be found in a multitude of threads- you're just flat out wrong. And if you can allege to have a sense of *my* infrequent posting habits are, you yourself must frequent these boards enough to have been aware of the current offerings and how much was being charged for them.
Buddy, I'm a Paizo guy. You don't find many of us here, definitely not as regular posters, and definitely not as subscribers. My whole post count be more than 10-20 since I joined. EDIT: For the record this is my 19th post ever. Most of them were on Oct 8th and Oct 10th.
Did I come last and ask a question about pricing before the release? Yeah. Doesn't change anything. My point stands. A few mnutes of reading would have told anybody what they needed to know.
It took longer to put in the credit card information than it did read what was included.
Hmmm. I wouldn't and couldn't consider myself a regular. But all definitions being relative, I concede that I might be a regular to you.
But if you're allegeding that I post daily, weekly, or that I can be found in a multitude of threads- you're just flat out wrong. And if you can allege to have a sense of *my* infrequent posting habits are, you yourself must frequent these boards enough to have been aware of the current offerings and how much was being charged for them.
Buddy, I'm a Paizo guy. You don't find many of us here, definitely not as regular posters, and definitely not as subscribers. My whole post count be more than 10-20 since I joined. EDIT: For the record this is my 19th post ever. Most of them were on Oct 8th and Oct 10th.
Did I come last and ask a question about pricing before the release? Yeah. Doesn't change anything. My point stands. A few mnutes of reading would have told anybody what they needed to know.
It took longer to put in the credit card information than it did read what was included.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to insinuate you were a regular just that you had been around.I wouldn't call you a regular but I've seen you post a few times, and sometimes in threads about D&DI so it's not much of a stretch to say you had known what the deal was in advance I'll put it this way to answer all the questions the people in my group had about it I had to show them where to find it. Without me actually walking them through it they would have no Idea that there's no ETA on the tools, or that when the suite is actually complete the package is expected to go up to 15 dollars. That info is not provided nor is it linked on the page nor is it in any of those tools coming soon page. People should not have to ask where this information is it should be readily available.
"Actually, your definition of entitlement is wrong. I could just as easily say 'I feel entitled to getting for a penny'. I wouldn't be getting something for nothing. Entitlement means you feel deserving of something, which is definitely not the case here. You did nothing to EARN free material. WotC's employees are, however, producing this material at the cost of their own free time. They, in turn, should be paid for it, it's called a job. WotC can't pay people with money that doesn't exist, nor should they be expected to pay people for something that isn't earning them revenue. It's just the way the world works, it's a pathetic, idiotic system, but nonetheless, it holds."
No one needs to EARN free material WOTC announced the material would be free therefore they have an obligation to honor their commitments. Therefore your entitlement argument holds no water. You are simply using it to vilify people that have legitimate complaints. If WOTC Can't offer this for free they never should have said they would end of story. Now I have no problem with them charging personally I figure they had to put some numbers up I do have a problem with them not being clear on all the details and using a coercive auto renew and a plethora of other things. They won't get money from me however until the game table is complete. The mags are great but I will not buy anything from this company till they fulfill that commitment for the people who bought in for it.
About an hour ago, I just purchased a 12 month subscription so that I could get access to the Character Builder and Character Visualizer that I've heard so much about.
Only after failing to find the download link for these programs did I finally notice the "Coming Soon" text on the marquis images for Builder and Visualizer.
I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. I should have read the fine print. I should have paid more attention. I should have noticed that Wizards had begun taking money for DND Insider without yet having made available the applications for which I wanted to subscribe.
I was wrong, and I'm not here to complain about it. But I do think it's kind of a poor design choice (and business choice) on their part to start selling dinner tickets when they only have soups and deserts available.
I have been playing D&D since 1981, and have loved each edition more than the previous. 3.5 in particular was, I felt, truly great. 4th Edition was the first to disappoint me on my first impression, but I have promised myself to accept it as-is and to find and embrace its strengths.
However, feeling like I got duped (or, at least, feeling dumb for buying something that isn't available) sure didn't help me feel any better about the franchise.
I am one of those people that will probably always continue to buy the latest D&D editions, and will always cheerfully accept whatever decisions Wizards (or the custodians of the IP after them) make about it, even if I end up needing to mix a few house rules in to course-correct past the weak spots.
Nevertheless, it's still a bit of a lousy feeling to have to fight to keep your faith in the company that holds the reigns to such a wonderful gaming classic.
Level Up Your Game—Here and Now
Improve your characters and campaigns with content, tools, articles, and applications you’ll find here at Dungeons & Dragons Insider. Every month, Dragon and Dungeon offer players and Dungeon Masters new material, options, encounters, and adventures. And the D&D Compendium provides you with a searchable database of all the official material from every rulebook and every issue of the online magazines.
Creating new characters and NPCs—at any level—will be easy with the Character Builder. The Character Visualizer will bring PCs out of your imagination and onto your character sheet and computer screen with fully rendered 3D models. The Dungeon Builder provides digital Dungeon Tiles and animated effects that will allow you to craft explorable environments filled with danger and reward. And it’ll all come together with the D&D Game Table, when you and your friends can share adventures—regardless of where you are.
And that’s just the beginning.
That is misleading. I'm not saying there is deliberate deception involved, but it is. The 'And that's just the beginning' needs to come after the first paragraph, and second paragraph should start with 'And coming soon...'
However, as has been pointed out several times before, just before you choose a subscription package, you are informed of what you are paying for.
Again, I'm not claiming deliberate deception, but what do you think 'bait and switch' is, as a tactic? It means advertising one thing, and when you've pulled the customer in, offering him something else.
The front page of www.dndinsider.com is misleading. I hope they fix it.
So your argument is it's ok to have misleading information on your website, as long as the page you subscribe on is correct?
Again, I'm not claiming deliberate deception, but what do you think 'bait and switch' is, as a tactic? It means advertising one thing, and when you've pulled the customer in, offering him something else.
The front page of www.dndinsider.com is misleading. I hope they fix it.
It is not mud bunny's website, he is just an unpaid person that is trying to keep discussion focused.
As for what WotC puts out for information, indeed I believe there should be more clarity in what their website says and does not say.
This is a website where any announcement needs to be looked at carefully for what is and what is not said.
FTR I have nothing at all to do with WotC at all, I have no dog in this fight.
The front page of DnD Insider is there to advertise the whole package and draw people in. Inside the DDI pages, it is quite clear what is available and what is not for those who take the time to find out for themselves.
Bait and switch is a very specific legal term for fraud, and is most definately not being done by WotC.
However, I definitely would not be citing the publisher's clearing house as any sort of example when defending someone who acted like they do.
The goal of the bait-and-switch is to convince some buyers to purchase the substitute good as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait
How is this not what WotC has done with D&Di?
Click on the "What is D&DI? Official FAQ" link for another example. It's completely out of date.
They just need to clean this stuff up. It's confusing people and leading to ill-will towards the D&D brand, which is something I do not wish to happen.
Mudbunny, the site you reference states:
How is this not what WotC has done with D&Di?
Sigh
Bait and switch is an illegal practice whereby a retailer advertises a product at a lower price, and then, when people come in to get it, claim that they are "all out" of the lower-priced product to try to get people to buy the higher priced product.
Last I checked, the price that is being currently offered for DDI is lower than the final price for the full suite of DDI.
In addition, the reason why you can't pay the full price is because the tools aren't ready yet.
everytime you advertise one thing and sell the other, the term would be applicable. and i have to wonder. when talking about theft vs. infringement, you stated that you don't want to discuss legal terms. here, you're pointing towards that legal term freely and try to convince others that their wording is not applicable. seems like a bit of hypocrisy to me.
and yes, you already gave the proper example bunny. just that if someone sends you such a "you have won eleven millions" it's easier to see at first glance that you won't get what's advertised inside.
it is far more difficult with ddi
bait and switch does not only apply to that tactic, bunny.
Actually, it does.
everytime you advertise one thing and sell the other, the term would be applicable.
So you would consider every single car ad to be bait and switch?? Beer ads? TV commercials? Movie trailers that show stuff that isn't in the movie? Weight-loss ads?
and i have to wonder. when talking about theft vs. infringement, you stated that you don't want to discuss legal terms. here, you're pointing towards that legal term freely and try to convince others that their wording is not applicable. seems like a bit of hypocrisy to me.
Fine. If people want to accuse WotC of Bait and Switch, which is a serious accusation of fraud, and pretty much ensure that any of your communications to WotC get ignored due to legal concerns, go for it. (I say this because most companies, when there is a legal accusation against them, quickly revert to "Have your lawyer contact my lawyer".) Also, it is one thing when we are talking about terms in the abstract. Here, someone has made a direct legal accusation against WotC.
and yes, you already gave the proper example bunny. just that if someone sends you such a "you have won eleven millions" it's easier to see at first glance that you won't get what's advertised inside.
Yes, you have to open the envelope and read the stuff that is inside the envelope. Seems to me to be pretty similar to what you have to do with DDI. (Open the website and read the pages).
I don't think WotC is being deliberately fraudulent,
No, its not like they have a full page ad in the back of the 4th ed. core books promoting all the cool apps for DDi and saying in the add "try DDi NOW" making people think all the good apps are ready on launch day when they knew they were not even close to being ready. Then you had to search the fourms for real info.
Then we had Ken Troop come on the fourms saying how sorry everyone at WOTC was and how would personally answer questions and get info out to the public. Then we never heard from him again.
Nothing misleading about that at all.
Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
No, its not like they have a full page ad in the back of the 4th ed. core books promoting all the cool apps for DDi and saying in the add "try DDi NOW" making people think all the good apps are ready on launch day when they knew they were not even close to being ready. Then you had to search the fourms for real info.
Nothing misleading about that at all.
Didn't they erratic that? After all there have been corrections put out for other corrections.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm "angry" and "aggressive" regarding this issue. I assure you I am not. No need to paint yourself as a victim under attack. I simply feel that some customers (that was a hypothetical "you") have unrealistic expectations for what information should be fed them on the time of purchase.
I think you mean: "months ago". Not "for months".
They've made it clear what you are NOT buying on their site, in the D&Di portion of their site. The fact that this information is not needlessly duplicated at the moment of sale is a non-issue.
And when they get here they'll see that's not the case.
And even if they're incredibly loose with their money, ignoring everything on the site except for the "buy" banner, they'll see exactly what they're buying at the moment of sale.
That's simply not true.
News posts, explanations in the Insider section of the site, and oh yeah, the list of what they are buying at the point of sale.
When you buy a book from a store, do you expect to be told what books from that publisher you are NOT buying? Those books you're not buying are likely advertised just as much as anything else, more than Insider. You might even be hotly anticipating those books.
Just because it's the internet doesn't put some added burden on the seller to make sure you know what you're doing.
Wow, what an odd analogy. What's the iceberg? How is 4E sinking? What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?
This revealed that the whole purpose of your post was to just say "4E & DDi = FAIL".
Na, I don't think it's an odd analogy at all. You think you have unearthed some great mystery by discovering the true intention of my post? Crap man I don't keep my dislike for 4e a secret at all and I am not in the least ashamed of it. In fact I encourage everyone that dislikes 4e to come right here to these forums and speak up and let their voices be heard. I bought the 4e books, I played the game, I DMed the game, I came I saw, I regurgitated. You think I'm a troll, that I am just posting here in order to get people to respond with negative comments. Hehe if it were that simple then you might be able to push my buttons. Truth of the matter is that I don't give a rats rear end if people respond with negative comments or not. I come around here from time to time in order to let Wizards of the Coast know that I exist and that I was once a pretty big D&D supporter, until they pulled the fiasco that they call 4th edition, and I want to be a reminder that there are a whole lot more people out there who are just like me who used to be big D&D supporters prior to 4e.
Am I a 3.5 grognard, na, I just think that every edition of D&D before 4e housed something of the true essence of D&D, something essential at its core rather than just stealing the name. The fiasco that is D&D Insider which is a neutered version of what was promised in the ads in the back of the core books regardless of what they have slapped up on their website now and dared charge for because they are busy trying to tread water so that they can afford to even try to develop the expensive and time consuming software that they promised would be ready at launch. I don't care if people don't agree with what I say here, it doesn't matter to me one bit, only thing that really matters to me is that I got to say it and that someone at Wizards probably will see it at some point. I want to say long and loud that I am a Pathfinder supporter now, simply because the thing that they are currently calling D&D doesn't do D&D style fantasy anymore, it does beany baby anime style collectible card game/video game style fantasy these days and I don't think their will be any fixing for it until they scrap about 9/10 of it and put some real meat back in the game.
D&D Insider isn't what was promised and I have my doubts that it will ever be what was promised, and well 4e, lets just all have a moment of silence for the death of an old friend. The true nature of my post? Well yeah how marvelously perceptive of you to find that which I never really tried to hide in the first place.
Charles
I want to say long and loud that I am a Pathfinder supporter now, simply because the thing that they are currently calling D&D doesn't do D&D style fantasy anymore,
can you please explain what part of D&D 4e is missing...I have been trying to get a straight answer since luanch and all I get is...
it does beany baby anime style collectible card game/video game style fantasy these days and I don't think their will be any fixing for it until they scrap about 9/10 of it and put some real meat back in the game.
now I don't see collectible card game thoughts...or beany baby (man I hope you were kidding there)...I guess I can see anime to an extent..record of the lotus wars maybe...and I see no more from video games then those same games took from D&D...
What is it that is missing???
I hope the character builder is online soon and it is worth the wait and cost. The previews look great.