Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 soyim Oct 27, 2009 23:30:53	So... that was pretty terrible.  I don't know why I'm so disappointed; but after the sheer volume of sexy that came out with Primal Power i really expected Wizards of the Coast, specifically the man who “led the design for 4th edition”, to have a better handle on what makes the Barbarian Class fun, exciting, and different. Instead i got a bland article with poor build options, boring powers, and advice that was sometimes straight out contradicted by the rules. Mr. Heinsoo's idea that the Barbarians extra damage doesn't come from "Lurking in a quarry mechanic or a sneak attack that requires careful tactics" and as a result you "Don't have to be tricky tactical or clever to have fun with the Barbarian" shows a vast lack of understanding on how most Barbarians play. The Thaneborn is one of the most complex roles to play; you have to balance the buffss and debuffs you grant; searching for the triggers that will help your allies the most. Randomly swinging won't do anything when you play a Thane. And until the release of Primal Power a Low Armored Rageblood Barbarian who wasn't "Tricky, Tactical, or Clever" was a corpse- now their new AC Feat makes it possible to Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, and Dodge: but that's only due to a feat that many (Just check out the discussion on this thing) feel is either overpowered or straight out broken. Mr. Heinsoo has a strange theory in his section on At-Will attacks: and specifically the focus on the god-awful Devastating Strike. Who uses Devastating Strike? Certainly nobody on the Optimization Boards- the vast number of "Help my Barbarian" threads in the Striker forums don't cry out to it as a Champion power. Especially after the Release of Primal power with its two solid new at-wills: I simply can't believe that Mr. Heinsoo expects us to believe that it is the "Cornerstone at-will attack for most barbarians."  The Cornerstone At-Will attack for Most Barbarians; is and has been Howling Strike. The difference of a d6 vs. a d8 bonus damage is almost negligible; the ability to use it on a Charge- which has been the Barbarians "Thing"; and its lack of penalties all make it the front runner. When comparing At-Will Attacks for Barbarians Devastating Strike- with its meager bonuses has never even come into the equation. Additionally when discussing At-Wills later in specific builds- Foe To Foe, Pressing Strike, Recovery Strike, and Howling Strike are never even mentioned: even when they are far more applicable to the build at hand than the subpar Devastation.  To his credit Mr. Heinsoo does an excellent job with the section on Rampage- pointing out multiple strategies, weapon options, tactics, and most importantly- rule interactions for triggering multiple free actions. Lest this post come off as completely negative, i want to point out how well done this section was and how i personally appreciated it. It certainly cleared up many questions i had.  When assigning Races to Builds these "Essential" articles always have a problem- namely that there are some races which just don't mix well with the Barbarian Class: however now that the Barbarian has 3 secondary stats to choose from; and a primary statistic- it leaves us with exactly ONE race (The Deva) which doesn't have any attributes to contribute to a Barbarian build. So having the Deva randomly assigned to the Thaneborn; a role that fits within the Deva's theme of “leader” is fine... but assigning the Eladrin to the Thaneborn- when it gets neither Charisma nor Strength- yet gets a bonus to Dexterity (The Whirling Barbarians Secondary Stat) and a feat which opens up the Urgosh (a double weapon) just shows a lack of attention was payed. Giving Human the Rageblood assignment- when it has nothing that favors the Rageblood over any other builds- seems incorrect and rushed. In previous versions of these lists Races or Builds were listed multiple times: i wish they had done the same thing here.  Rather than attack each "Build Option" on its stat spread: i want to go into its content. Mr. Heinsoo continues his obsession with Devastating Strike going so far as to say "There's no reason to avoid Devastating Strike, unless you have a different concept in mind". Normally i wouldn't object to this statement because of that clause on concepts- but i want to point out that this statement is placed in the "Whirling Frenzy" section- and this is a power that can only be used with a two handed weapon! Now your mileage may vary- some DM's may rule that a Versatile Weapon used in two hands, or a double weapon, qualify for "Two Handed Weapon" status. But by a straight reading of the rules- they do not; and putting this information under the build that focuses on Dual Wielding/Double Weapons is a jarring mistake.  The Thunderborn Barbarian option could have also used a slightly more expansive writeup than the 4.5 paragraphs it received. This is a new build; telling me that a feat is "Scary Good" and that i should focus on "Constitution based powers" is not helpful. A few comments on arranging myself so that i don't catch my friends in my blasts- a note on maximizing the number of enemies I'm adjacent to so that my AOE Bloody effect does more damage- these would have been useful.  Thaneborn Barbarians; the misunderstood stepchild of the Rageblood Archetype- continue to be maligned here cited as the non selfish Barbarian and the Barbarian for those weird races!- but the article doesn't offer any tips or hints on how to avoid getting killed wearing your Light Armor having a 13 in Dexterity and an 11 Con: and in fact a weakness is pointed out "None of the Barbarian At-Wills speak specifically to your build." Hrmmm i wonder how they could have fixed that- oh i know! A Barbarian Essentials Article! Forgive me the sarcasm- but this is really intolerable: a weakness in power diversity is actively noted by an author in the same article in which he is free to create new powers... but chooses not to?  Rageblood Barbarians are fine; have been fine; and will continue to be fine: they are also the build that gets by far and the most attention in this article- nearly an entire page. Perhaps this is why Barbarians "Don require clever cunning"- because the author has only played this one build: which is fine; but a bit more research or an author that has played more than just the Rageblood could have been tapped to write this.  The items are generally ok: though i don't understand why the only build to get a specific item was the Rageblood Barbarian (oh wait... maybe i do)- and in fact the same item would generally speaking be just as useful if it just said "When you activate your feral might you gain additional temporary hit points equal to your strength modifier" rather than specification Rageblood Vigor. The biggest problem i have with the items is the multi-paragraph fluff on Old Wolfs Gloves; an item that isn't actually in the article. Nor is it in the Data-Base, the Character Builder, or in this months issue of Dragon- i checked. Is this part one of a two part article like the Vistani? Should i be expecting a second riveting issue? Or was the Editing just lazy- and the changed the name of either of the two pairs of gloves in the article itself (Doesn't seem like it from the descriptions) without letting anyone know?  Finally we get to the "Most Interesting Choices" for a Barbarian- the Rages. Thaneborns not getting a specific at-will aside this is a pretty miserable pick of powers. Always Falling Rage does mediocre damage and gives you an immediate reaction power... of movement! Bloodseekers Rage is ok since it expands your ability to make opportunity attacks and focuses nicely on the "Bloodied is bad vs. a Barbarian" theme; but then we get to Skull-Takers Rage- an ongoing three damage in exchange for a +1 to hit. Perhaps this is a good deal for the two Con Builds; that's not the point. The point is for "Interesting Choices" this is a selection of yawn worthy boring powers that don't stand up to the interesting powers in Primal Power; or even the classically powerful ones from PHB2.  In fact with the exception of Earthquake Dragon Rage (1 out of the 9 powers presented here) none of these powers are "interesting". None of them are "Dynamic" or any of the other keywords bantered about by the Design Team when discussing designing dailies. Primal Power did it right- the Rages in it (By and Large) are enthusiastic displays of whimsy and destruction: while these are tacked on ideas; minor bonuses; and situational buffs. These powers don't scream "Take me! Even if only to watch your friends and DM laugh/cry/or stifle a giggle when you activate it!" These powers scream "Snoozefest" and they do so quietly. Finally the feats: which is where this article really could have distinguished itself slightly by giving us some Web-Exclusive interaction. A Barbarian feat for Revenants; Minotaurs; Githzerai or Shadar-Kai! Hell even something for those Small Sized Gnomish Barbarians mentioned earlier in the article! Instead I get a Tribal Version of Deadly Rage, a situational damage bonus, and a death saving throw feat. None of these feats are bad- in fact I think Blood Cousins Tribe is ripe for Optimization... but none of them solve any of the problems the Barbarian faces (namely how to survive being in Melee if your not a Rageblood Barbarian and the problem of Double Weapons and Versatile Weapons and the “Two Handed Weapon only clause) or are in fact “Essential”- which is the name of the Article. The “Essential” Articles have had a share of problems. The Ranger Article was withdrawn because of lousy editing, the Fighter Article had a power that never should have been printed in it, the Cleric, Wizard and Warden versions have barely even made a splash in the community. Sadly the Barbarian article doesn't break this trend: which is a shame because after the enthusiastic response that Primal Power has gotten it would have been nice to see a digital product with the same level of professionalism and energy.  Sincerely, Sam Kaye
#2 chanter_hound Oct 28, 2009 19:26:32	Personally, I think most of the articals were written a long time ago, and eventually come out into the public. Maybe this one was written back during the time PH2 was just coming out.
#3 Cailte Oct 29, 2009 3:48:24	Giving Human the Rageblood assignment- when it has nothing that favors the Rageblood over any other builds- seems incorrect and rushed. Actually human's like Rageblood because then they need Str/Con/Dex to not end up as total punching bags. With a 17/14/14/10/10/8 array the Human can put the +2  in Str, and happily hit 20 Str at 4th level. To make a Thaneborn though you need to have something like 16/13/14/10/10/13 as the stats. 14 Dex lets you manage a huge 16 AC in Hide ... oh wait... In other words Rageblood is much easier to manage for the poor human with only a single very flexible +2.
#4 Mengu74 Oct 29, 2009 8:59:17	I pretty much agree with the OP. The focus on Devastating Strike being a staple power gave me chuckles. The comment of "Barbarians are easy to play" is also a very misguided comment. I've seen too many "Me Smash" barbarians charge headlong into the fray and soak up all the party healing. I'm sorry, but that's not how you play a 4e Barbarian, especially a Thaneborn (or a Whirler I suspect). Even Ragebloods can benefit from a bit of caution in where they place themselves. Skirting the edges of the battle field so you can charge from target to target, especially with  The Thunderborn Barbarian option could have also used a slightly more expansive writeup than the 4.5 paragraphs it received. This is a new build; telling me that a feat is "Scary Good" and that i should focus on "Constitution based powers" is not helpful. A few comments on arranging myself so that i don't catch my friends in my blasts- a note on maximizing the number of enemies I'm adjacent to so that my AOE Bloody effect does more damage- these would have been useful.  Funny you should say that, as it's a misinformed comment. Thunderborn blast powers target only enemies, so you don't have to worry about catching your friends. Clearly, the article should have mentioned this to help you optimize the number of targets you can hit. Overall, disappointing article.
#5 estyles Nov 02, 2009 19:05:22	Yeah, seriously - he goes on and on about Devastating Strike.  I mean, sure, I guess I could see some Barbarian somewhere using it, but is it really the default at-will for Barbs where he comes from?  And I wonder how many times he's played, built, or seen a Whirling Barbarian to not know that they tend to not use Two Handed Weapons... I mean, ignoring everything else, Howl of Fury deals [W] + Str + Con damage to a single target (plus catching other enemies in the blast for Con damage), which is virtually the same single-target damage as Devestating Strike plus AoE with no drawback (and more damage when raging).  Plus, of course, the aforementioned Howling Strike.  So how could he possibly mention DS as the best choice for a Rageblood?  Much less Whirling.  I understand that Howl of Fury and Whirling Barbarians are brand new...  which might have been a good reason to delay the article a little...
#6 Khan_the_Destroyer Nov 02, 2009 19:36:43	I don't believe that Howl of Fury hits the primary target with the thunder damage. The primary target is included in the blast (for whatever reason this is spelled out in the text), but the primary target doesn't take the damage. (All IIRC.)
#7 estyles Nov 02, 2009 20:13:00	I don't believe that Howl of Fury hits the primary target with the thunder damage. The primary target is included in the blast (for whatever reason this is spelled out in the text), but the primary target doesn't take the damage. (All IIRC.) I'll have to re-read it in Primal Power when I get home, but ...  (edit)I'm stupid.  =)  I read it when I got home and you were absolutely right. Though the other comments people made about Devastating Strike are still correct, it's not totally overshadowed by Howl of Fury like I thought...
#8 Khan_the_Destroyer Nov 02, 2009 20:19:15	I stopped being lazy and grabbed my book to read it. The exact wording is: You then howl in a blast 3 that includes the target. Each enemy in the blast, other than the target, takes thunder damage equal to your constitution modifier. I like it though. You bellow and minions die.
#9 estyles Nov 02, 2009 22:01:50	I stopped being lazy and grabbed my book to read it. The exact wording is: You then howl in a blast 3 that includes the target. Each enemy in the blast, other than the target, takes thunder damage equal to your constitution modifier. I like it though. You bellow and minions die. Yeah.  All the other powers targetted for Thunderborn don't exclude the primary target, and I totally missed those words in the at-will power.  Granted, it totally makes sense, otherwise the at-will is better than most of the encounter powers in the Screamy line...
#10 Reg06 Nov 03, 2009 8:47:26	Devastating Strike is my default at-will once I've charged in with Howling Strike. I really like throwing that extra d8, because the damage is just hilarious. -2 to all defenses doesn't matter so much since, as a minotaur, I don't mind hitting 0, and I have 2 rages so I'm raging half the time (at higher levels that -2 will almost never come into effect because you have enough rages to rage all the time).
#11 wincy Nov 13, 2009 18:01:42	All this grief about Devastating Strike, and so far, no comments on the increased damage at 11th level. Most At-Will Powers do not get a bonus until level 21. Paragon level Dev Strike does W + Str + 2d8 = W + Str + 9avg. There are no feats/abilities giving you that much extra damage. With Devastating Strike, decent stats, a few dmg feats you can hit for well into the upper 20s with a single At-Will Power, equalling most Daily Attack Powers. Sure the power may have neglible advantages at heroic, but it certainly should be considered for retraining at paragon and epic levels. Winc
#12 Caeric Nov 13, 2009 22:00:55	All this grief about Devastating Strike, and so far, no comments on the increased damage at 11th level. Most At-Will Powers do not get a bonus until level 21. Paragon level Dev Strike does W + Str + 2d8 = W + Str + 9avg. There are no feats/abilities giving you that much extra damage. With Devastating Strike, decent stats, a few dmg feats you can hit for well into the upper 20s with a single At-Will Power, equalling most Daily Attack Powers. Yeah, Howling Strike does that too.  At level 11, Howling strike does 1[W] + 2d6 + Strength mod. By level 21, the difference (between 3d8 and 3d6) is an average of 3 damage. However, that is not all there is to the powers. Devastating Strike makes you vulnerable to attacks, whereas you can use Howling Strike on a charge (+1 to the attack, making it more accurate and increasing its average damage). Devastating Strike is not enough of a damage boost for the penalty. I would say a d10 would actually be sufficient a fix. But as it is, it is not suitable, certainly not as a corner stone. For me, Howling Strike and Pressing Strike are the two to stick to. If I'm playing a Human, I think Foe to Foe is a good way to go; all the benefits of Devastating Strike without the penalties, just after a good kill. It wasn't a great article. I would've liked some support for Thaneborns (I don't play them, but fair should be fair), and some more content. It was fairly content-light. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Rages (they're not that interesting to me), so I would like to see more Encounter and Utility powers in the future instead.
#13 Keenath Nov 15, 2009 0:55:20	All this grief about Devastating Strike, and so far, no comments on the increased damage at 11th level. Yeah, Howling Strike does that too. Devastating Strike is not enough of a damage boost for the penalty. I agree; the difference isn't enough to justify taking Devastating over Howling.  That said, there is an argument for trading into Dev at paragon, once you have enough rages that you'll be raging almost every fight and not taking the penalty. But that's the sort of thing he OUGHT to have brought up in the article, anyway. Coincidentally, note that  Recuperating Strike also upgrades at 11th.