I must say at first I hated the 4th edition.
THEN I loved it until I saw that the DDI was not ready and a total lie THEN I hated it.
THEN I loved it because I saw my wife a half gamer making her own characters and being really excited. She and my friend's wife got involved in the game really deep.
THEN I hated it because of DDI not being ready. Really don't brag about a wonderful product then not be ready for release and be late for 10 months now. Really don't tell us then not deliver.
THEN I saw my group of players having a blast and myself having more fun in years. Way more fun that the BROKEN 3rd and 3.5 edition.
THEN my one of my players believed in the product so much that he bought me the DDI for a year. The character creator is AWESOME! Still glad I did not pay for it as all the other features are YEARS away from completion. Really WotC you need to be ashamed of yourselves for not having the programs complete with the release LIKE YOU PROMISED. Still to this day not having it ready? What seems to be the problem?
We finished the Keep on the Shadowfell and I must say it was awesome to run but now I can play.
Now that I am playing the Thunderspire Labyrinth I have never had so much fun playing a wizard. We are at the 7 pillars cavern. Will update. So far very old school. I know old school as I have been playing for 28 years.
The point? Tabletop is awesome with the 4th. The DDI is a total disappointment so far. Not because it's not a good product, it's because they promised so much and STILL don't have it ready.
Does it live up to all the hype I heard about before the release of 4th? Not in the slightest.
Why did I subscribe to it then?
Because I think it is now worth the money. I use the Character Builder, Compendium, and the Bonus Tools. But the kicker for me was the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I really liked them in print, and now in PDF format, I don't have to store them somewhere safe, else risk damaging them.
I'm content with waiting, and enjoying the product that they HAVE released so far. And I'm one of those people who has very little patience to begin with. I do however understand that this particular bit of missing info requires time to complete - programming, testing, reprogramming(to fix bugs as necessary), adding more content, making sure that additional content can be added as new material is released, making sure that it is compatible with every system, making sure that minimum requirements are set within the programming itself. Ever hear of Second Life, I'm thinking that the programming will be very similar to that online virtual world.
What more do you want?
The whole product.
Unless you're a programmer, you probably don't realize that it could take up to three years(of which they are probably in year two) to program a working version that they are happy enough to release for public consumption.
Actually, I do code. Granted, my focus is on web applications, but I know and understand the development process. Right now, there is too much information I don't have to speculate on why these products aren't released yet, or at least have a public release time frame.
Is Wizards doing this in-house? Did they contract it out? If so, to whom? If they did contract it out, I think they should have gone back to Atari and Obsidian, the makers of NWN2, and use existing technology to cut cost and development time.
I suspect this is an in-house project. If Hasbro sent out a job like this, I'm sure they would want a solid date for its completion.
Finally, development time isn't an excuse. You should only promote products you have (I know this isn't widely practiced).
Ever hear of Second Life, I'm thinking that the programming will be very similar to that online virtual world.
I don't know about all that. But a good question is, are they animating all of this? That takes a long time also.
I'm content with waiting, and enjoying the product that they HAVE released so far.
I agree. :D
I moved away from my gaming group shortly after the release of Fourth Edition, but we remained hopeful we would be able to resume things shortly with the game table.
The features currently available make it worth subscribing for me, but if Wizards are able to get the remaining features working, I will be very pleased.
Am I upset because WotC is human and would rather work out kinks instead of giving us a shoddy product... no.
I know it's disappointing when features are delayed, but I'd urge you to evaluate DDI itself based on what we have now. Look at the unreleased features as something neat that might nor might not pop up in the future. I guess it's fine to judge the whole service on failed promises, but the actual products are pretty good.
All I could find was those pages about them. It doesn't say much other than the features.
What is the latest official word on the Dungeon Builder, Character Visualizer, and Game Table anyway?
All I could find was those pages about them. It doesn't say much other than the features.
The last official word I read on them boiled down to: "Let's wait and see". I have no doubt that they are in future plans, but I doubt any staff member would be willing to give anything in the range of a specific date for release.
But hey whats done is done..
I can buy a car, but if I pay for power windows, and I don't get power windows, I'm not going to be happy and say "at least the car runs".
I like Wizards as a brand, and I buy many of the products they put out. I even defend a lot of their decisions. I'm not threatening to stop buying from them, and I don't think I am asking for special treatment here.
I'm not really that upset about it not being released yet. In fact, if it was released tomorrow, I'm not sure if I have a need for it yet. But, I'm not going to forget about it.
I may be a loyal customer, but that doesn't mean that is permission for customer service to become lax.
This isn't really even a half-beef with me. It's more like a 1/10th beef, at most. But some information would be nice.
See, when they were open about what was going on, everybody and their uncles mother was giving them **** for it.
So they decided it was better to stay vague and not give out deadlines or dates that will just give them grief.
I can buy a car, but if I pay for power windows, and I don't get power windows, I'm not going to be happy and say "at least the car runs".
Well that's not accurate. It's like you got to the lot to find that the car with power windows you wanted isn't there. They only have the manual windows model in stock but they're willing to offer it to you for less than the power windows model.
I am sure it's original "intended" functionality sold alot of core rulesets. That probably would not have been sold had Wizards been a little forthcoming with that information.
I bought the core ruleset completely oblivious to the issue of DDI. I went to the store, looked through the book, then bought it on amazon because I felt the game was good. I don't think full feature DDI sold 4e any more than maptools sold any other RPG.
Well that's not accurate. It's like you got to the lot to find that the car with power windows you wanted is there. They only have the manual windows model in stock but they're willing to offer it to you for less than the power windows model.
I didn't notice any mark down on my bill.
They lowered the price for DDI before subscription started, and plan to raise it when more stuff gets finished.
Where is all this information at? I fell like I'm being left out of the loop here.
At least 4th edition was on time. Look on the bright side
Where is all this information at? I fell like I'm being left out of the loop here.
I know a lot of it was spread out throughout the DDI threads further down, Community Business further up, and right here in General Discussion. You had to do a lot of hopping around to catch it all, but I am a witness to the fact that it was stated.
It was a bit disappointing, but the 12 cents a month I'm spending on the Character Builder is quite fine with me.
There's also the deal of making a product that looks and feels professional and not some Frankenstein's monster of an application that's a mish-mash of barely functional crap. You see it in video games all the time, a game works but it doesn't have that final layer of polish that distinguishes a great game from a good game. If the time Wizards is taking will ensure that the DDI has that level of polish then more power to them, that's how it should be done in the first place.
The way I see it the DDI project is so ambitious that it had to be done in phases. A program with that much functionality and the potential to be so integral to peoples' games deserves to be given the the time to be done right. As a programmer I know there's a lot of pitfalls that you can stumble into even when dealing with something simple and it's not always obvious that you screwed something up at first.
There's also the deal of making a product that looks and feels professional and not some Frankenstein's monster of an application that's a mish-mash of barely functional crap. You see it in video games all the time, a game works but it doesn't have that final layer of polish that distinguishes a great game from a good game. If the time Wizards is taking will ensure that the DDI has that level of polish then more power to them, that's how it should be done in the first place.
I hope this is the case, I really do. But I don't see how this is more than just speculation.
I hope this is the case, I really do. But I don't see how this is more than just speculation.
We won't know for sure until they come out with all the functions. Even then remember that because it's an application there's always patches if necessary. Right now I'm staying away from yet another monthly bill as WoW is enough.
DDI rocks, if your a DM. The Compendium and the Character Builder OWN! The bonus tools are very handy. Dungeon & Dragon Magazines are awesome and not to be missed (each months Dragon in particular usually has one or two wicked crunchy bits, and bunches of other stuff.)
Just because the Character Visualizer, the Dungeon Builder and the Game Table aren't finished, doesn't mean DDI as it stands isn't 100% worth the $55 a year for the current stuff.
Did they discover the project was bigger than they thought? Probably. Have they found their budget a little lighter than they expected given the current state of the economy? It wouldn't surprise me. Were they overly optimistic to begin with? More than likely.
Am I angry? Nah. It happens all the time. I didn't buy a subscription to DDI based on their promises. I bought it based on looking at the product and deciding whether it was worth it. My 4th Edition rulebooks still work and I bought them for D&D 4th Edition, not based on what sort of neat add ons might be available through DDI at some point in the future. The failure to deliver DDI as it was hyped hasn't cost me anything.
I think the OP is right to say that WotC failed to deliver, and I can understand an emotional response, but really, going from love to hate of a game based on the promise of future added features strikes me as a little silly. I have never bought a product based solely on the fact that I have been promised they are making an add-on for the product that will make it work better - eventually. Either the product is good enough for me to buy, or it isn't. If they do come out with the add-on and it makes the product good enough, I can buy it then. Until then, I can live without it.
Hell, tonight my group was held up for considerable time because the Character Creator printed out 4 of the same power for our Fighter. "So what?" you might say. It didn't just print out a power and 3 extra; it had replaced three other powers with the same encounter power; one of which was a Close Burst 1 daily we needed.
I'm sorry WoTC, I'll buy your books and I love 4E, but the DDi is a mess. Character Creator looks really awesome, it's just really hard justifying buying something so buggy.
So my point is this: It doesn't seem worth my money when it's so broken.
I have dallied in programming and understand how difficult stuff like this could be, but then again, they should have also and have been upfront on where they were in regards to its release...not stringing along their customers from the beginning...
Come on folks they have done a poor job...it is ok to say it...it not dissing WotC..they have done a good job with other things..just not DDI
I can't be the only one who remembers the "Master Tools" debacle from 3rd Edition. It was a promised suite of software that was to provide a mapmaker, campaign tracker and character generator, and it was supposed to be available at the release of 3rd Edition. Well, 3rd Edition came out in 2000, and we didn't see Master Tools until a couple years later, on an overpriced, shoddily-produced CD, with most of the promised features missing, and the existing character generator being buggy and vastly inferior to the PC Gen software from SourceForge. Master Tools was obviously released in a "We promised it, we screwed up, you've had to wait too long, so take what we have, and you'll have to make do" frame of mind, which, while unfortunate, was still something. Granted, it was something the playerbase had already outgrown (they waited so long for it that someone else just finally decided to make their own, which amongst the people I played with was the most popular; speaking of the aforementioned PC Gen), but it was still something "official", and nominal efforts were made to patch the initial wave of bugs.
I just recently joined DDI as a paid subscriber; I was part of the initial wave of free subscriptions, and I probably wouldn't have gone much farther until my current Dungeon Master started extolling the virtues of its content. He seemed to know a lot more about upcoming, yet-unpublished classes than I did, and the notion of the Rules Compendium was attractive to me. I downloaded the Character Generator's free beta and was really enamored with how it worked; here was Master Tools in a functioning, attractive package! The Character Generator software was the primary reason I decided to drop the $8 to subscribe.
I spent some time last night, after downloading the latest patch to include the Player's Handbook 2 content, creating my currently 5th level Barbarian in Character Generator. He came out beautifully. The program calculated all my stats, included racial bonuses, let me level up, let me equip my beloved +2 Vicious Greataxe, and otherwise did all the math (so many situational bonuses to keep track of in 4th Edition...) for me; all I'm going to have to do when we play next is look at my character sheet instead of shuffling back and forth between Barbarian powers and feats to get the totality of what happens when I reduce something to 0 hit points. That's the way it ought to be, and in a much prettier version than a handwritten character sheet. At the conclusion of the session, I can take my notes of any changes made to my character during the session, input appropriate changes in Character Generator, then save it, export it to a PDF with a third-party program, and take it to the nearest 'net cafe here in Seattle and print out an updated version.
I don't see what's not to love just on that basis alone. But including Dragon Magazine, Dungeon Magazine, early previews, etc., that is just icing on the cake. Sure, the Virtual Tabletop would have been neat, but I actually play with folks who are local to the Seattle area. We gather around my dining room table most every Saturday, deal with various players' flatulence, the roundabout of horrendously inappropriate jokes, the consumption of snacks, etc., and we play us some Dungeons & Dragons! The VTT isn't needed for me, so I don't miss the fact that it isn't ready yet, even though the way it was discussed in the Player's Handbook had me very excited about the general concept of it (we have a couple of professional types in our group, and the idea that we could still have a session with them absent is appealing; I don't think we'd ever use it, though; we'd just cancel the session for that week and the remainder of us would go see a movie or something).
I think Dungeons & Dragons Insider is a great suite of content, well worth $8 a month. Hell, the Character Generator alone would be worth that much.
Well that's not accurate. It's like you got to the lot to find that the car with power windows you wanted isn't there. They only have the manual windows model in stock but they're willing to offer it to you for less than the power windows model.
Assuming the dealership was advertising the deal (as Wizards was), the comparison you give is actually illegal in many places. It's misleading.
Besides, your comparison is a bit off, too. It's more like they advertise a car that gets 50 mpg, power steering, cruise control, iPod plug-in, etc. (the cooler features), but they only have the basic model with none of those features. Also, they really want to charge the same price for the basic model, but public outcry makes them realize that would be really bad PR, so they cave and offer it at a cheaper price. ... this car analogy is wearing thin.
IMO, the CB and the magazines are worth $60 / year, easily. If the rest of the stuff never sees the light of day, I'd still be happy as long as we got CB updates, as well as the new Dungeon and Dragon mags.
Good job WoTC.
Well you can lay blame at your fellow gamers for the lack of information.
See, when they were open about what was going on, everybody and their uncles mother was giving them **** for it.
So they decided it was better to stay vague and not give out deadlines or dates that will just give them grief.
When were they ever open about anything I've been watching this since the beginning and this time never existed. the hype before release was huge and they failed to mention these products weren't ready there's one month before release they put out in one article that it's not going to be complete for a few months. is that the clear communication your referencing. they didn't recall the games day hype just kept pumping it as if they had the full product ready to go so ya people were ****** and rightly so.
I bought the core ruleset completely oblivious to the issue of DDI. I went to the store, looked through the book, then bought it on amazon because I felt the game was good. I don't think full feature DDI sold 4e any more than maptools sold any other RPG.
I'm glad you live under a rock, but those of us flowing the year of hype about 4e were juiced that we'd be able to reunite over the internet with tools that would bring old gaming buddies together. The only possible reason to be as secretive about the delays as they were is because they were afraid it would impact sales.
I bought the core ruleset completely oblivious to the issue of DDI. I went to the store, looked through the book, then bought it on amazon because I felt the game was good. I don't think full feature DDI sold 4e any more than maptools sold any other RPG.
There indeed is or was a subset of regular posters that did indicate that they purchased the books because of inline gaming. Even in last 6 months, perhaps less, we from time to time get a post about where is game table. These appear to indicate that they purchased books for online play.
Oh it clearly is possible that some posters over complain, however in the body of posts I have read on this issue it clearly appears to me that some indeed purchased the books for online gaming. How many much harder to know/guess.