Jeez, WotC, can't you get at least ONE piece of continuity correct? And you wonder why you alienated so many people with 4e, my gods! (or is it exarchs? Damn it, STAY CONSISTENT! It's what kept D&D alive for 30+ years and now time is going backwards until the game implodes on itself!)
Brown Dragons can't fly, they don't have wings.
Jeez, WotC, can't you get at least ONE piece of continuity correct instead of raping it as always? And you wonder why you alienated so many people with 4e, my gods! (or is it exarchs? Damn it, STAY CONSISTENT! It's what kept D&D alive for 30+ years and now time is going backwards until the game implodes on itself!)
Yay, Tradition. :rolleye2:
"In Soviet Russia, Dungeons and Dragons plays YOU."
The flappy leathery skin looks an awful lot like wings to me.
Hell it is almost all wing, that thing be able to glide pretty well probably.
Brown Dragons can't fly, they don't have wings.
No... Gold dragons don't have wings, maybe someone should re-read their Monstrous Manual
More seriously - Who said brown dragons can't fly? I must have missed that history channel exclusive documentary where they found all those dragon bones.
Of all the things that D&D has had for 30 years - consistency is not one of them. Unless you are talking about that kind of pulpy, grainy consistency that all paper has.
Enjoy!!
Forgive the clueless noob...what brown dragons, where?
Here you go:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081024b
It is an excerpt from Draconomicon.
Edit: Ninjaed!
Get a grip, man.
Edit: Ninjaed!
The ninja-bunny strikes again.
Anyone I am 33, been gaming for 10 years and any continuity hiccup doesn't bother me much. Life is filled with drama I don't let games create more drama for me.
Brown Dragons can't fly, they don't have wings.
Um.
So?
That hasn't stopped Oriental dragons from flying for the past 8,000 years.
Brown Dragons can't fly, they don't have wings.
Brown dragons can fly if the rules say they can. And if you think consistency kept the game alive this long, you're living in a dream world.
They had wings and could fly then.
They have wings and can fly now.
Where's the consistency problem?
Guys, they took out THAC0! DOWN WITH THIS GAME!!!11one!!1
Why does AC go up?
Why does AC go up?!
Why does AC go up?!!
Why does AC go up?!!!
Why does AC go up?!!!!
Why does AC go up?!!!!!
Why does AC go up?!!!!!!
Oh yeah, because it makes more sense.
More seriously - Who said brown dragons can't fly? I must have missed that history channel exclusive documentary where they found all those dragon bones.
It was an Animal Planet special a few years back not a History Channel exclusive. Although they were more of drakes then they were dragons if you ask me. Although I don't recall them discussing brown dragons in it. They did discuss that platinum was the secret to dragon's ability to fly and breath fiore though. And now you know why dragons keep hoards.:D
Brown Dragons can't fly
Sure they can, all it takes is Faith and Trust.... oh and something I forgot. Dust!
Brown Dragons are just renamed Sand Dragons (D&D 3.5 Sandstorm).
Thanks I was trying to find them to see if they didn't have wings in 3.5. As you can see the images look fairly consistent from one edition to the other.
Cheers, LT.
That art, while rather nicely done, serves to illustrate my point. That thing just looks rediculous.
It would work if you took away those stubby little wingies and called it a Drake or something instead of a Dragon, but as a Dragon it's just silly.
For comparison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_colossus.
Brown Dragons can't fly, they don't have wings.
Jeez, WotC, can't you get at least ONE piece of continuity correct? And you wonder why you alienated so many people with 4e, my gods! (or is it exarchs? Damn it, STAY CONSISTENT! It's what kept D&D alive for 30+ years and now time is going backwards until the game implodes on itself!)
Who cares? I hated the old, wingless brown dragons. Up with COOL dragons!
And to be fair, seriously, wingless dragon? Dumb idea.
That art, while rather nicely done, serves to illustrate my point. That thing just looks rediculous.
It would work if you took away those stubby little wingies and called it a Drake or something instead of a Dragon, but as a Dragon it's just silly.
What's wrong with wingless dragons?
2 pages of discussion and no one already noticed one thing? That is, the new brown dragon looks almost exactly like a monster from Shadow of the Colossus which is a long, brown worm living in a desert with the hobby of chasing our hero and his faithful horse companion Agro. :D
For comparison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_of_the_colossus.
Well, the brown dragon has officially gone up in my book. That was singly my favorite fight in that entire game.
I forgot to insert "flying" between "brown" and "worm", thanks to some people in this thread. :D
I figured that was what you were talking about. Of the two wormlike colossi that exist in desert landscapes in the game, only one of them flies like a brown dragon.
A dragon should not be hurt by it's own breath weapon. Especially not when that dragon has fire resist and burrows through sand at extreme speeds, and it's breath weapon is a blast of hot sand. If the dragon doesn't back away from the zone it creates with it's breath weapon, it's going to get hurt by it at the start of it's next turn. Something's wrong with that in my book.
Pssst! He isn't.
Which begs the question as to why he wastes his time and ours by posting here.
At any rate, I believe it was changed for the sake of consistency. A big, quadrupedal lizard with wings that flies is a dragon. A big, quadrupedal lizard without wings that does not fly is a drake, IIRC (I don't THINK Rage Drakes fly, but I'm AFB). So, they were either going to give it wings and continue to call it a dragon, or rename it to Sand/Brown Drake.
I'm gonna get me a pet of one of those!
Hi, Razz!
Cheers, LT.
I concur.
I have an idea of would-be rescuers stumbling upon the Brown Dragon's lair to find the damsel in distress is fine and quite happy to cook for someone who finally appreciate her food.
I love how he's a food fanatic.
I have an idea of would-be rescuers stumbling upon the Brown Dragon's lair to find the damsel in distress is fine and quite happy to cook for someone who finally appreciate her food.
They also find a Dragonborn in the dragon's lair...
But did it have wings, or was it at least able to fly?
YES!
k thats wonderful
Isn't it, though? :D
What's wrong with wingless dragons?
Those guys can fly though instead of sucking on the ground.
I wonder what the other chromatics are going to be like?
Well this is just what I personally would like to see:
Grey: It is Fog/Mist based. It is a Dragon that lives its entire life within natural or artificial fog and mist banks created by itself. This is a creature that prefers to use stealth and surprise to feed, using the rolling fog to cover itself.
Villages fear and grow terrified when they see a massive fog bank rolling down from the mountains, any which one could carry within it a Grey Dragon, which upon the fogs departure will leave just ruin in its wake. Not even sound can escape, muffled by the fog.
Ability wise, the Grey Dragon can perform Sneak Attacks when covered in its fog banks, can generate fog, summon bouts of wind and in the most powerful turn into fog itself.
Well this is just what I personally would like to see:
Grey: It is Fog/Mist based. It is a Dragon that lives its entire life within natural or artificial fog and mist banks created by itself. This is a creature that prefers to use stealth and surprise to feed, using the rolling fog to cover itself.
Villages fear and grow terrified when they see a massive fog bank rolling down from the mountains, any which one could carry within it a Grey Dragon, which upon the fogs departure will leave just ruin in its wake. Not even sound can escape, muffled by the fog.
Ability wise, the Grey Dragon can perform Sneak Attacks when covered in its fog banks, can generate fog, summon bouts of wind and in the most powerful turn into fog itself.
That... would be awesome!
If a dragon like that doesn't show up in the Draconomicon, it should totally be homebrewed! :D
I hope all the new dragons don't end up being lurkers... The brown dragon looks really cool, but I'd like a bit of variety.
Well I really doubt that they will be able to make a purple dragon into a lurker....unless it jumps out of pre-k kids and then hides in them again.
I love the idea for the mist idea for the gray dragons though.
Well I really doubt that they will be able to make a purple dragon into a lurker....unless it jumps out of pre-k kids and then hides in them again.
I love the idea for the mist idea for the gray dragons though.
Purple dragon always makes me think of the "Purple Mottled Dragon" mentioned in Chainmail.
Long story short, it's a Purple Worm.
You don't want Brown Dragons to fly in your game?
POOF!! They don't.
I can't beleive this post made it to page 3...
(Hope I added enough lines to get it to page 4....)
Oy. Purple dragons? Really? What's next, the extremely rare Pink Dragon, with a Fire and Ice breath weapon, that only comes about when Whites and Reds interbreed?
Its breath weapon would probably be a cone of warmth.
Its breath weapon would probably be a cone of warmth.
It would be a cone of rainbows. It would be FAAAAAAAABULOUS!
Death by chocolate, quite literally. :D
On a serious level, a Purple Dragon hmm...
Purple Dragon: The Purple Dragon is unique in its connection to fellow Dragons, the large is not always the most powerful.
The Purple Dragon is a the hound, snake and falcon of Dragon kind. Their powerful limbs can propel them through dark streets or barrel them into the sky where their swift wings can manoeuvre them through the most treacherous skies.
The Purple Dragon can summon up clouds of seeping darkness that weaken and disable its prey so it can be chased down, or to allow the Dragon to fly away in safety. Its dark purple scales can reflect slightly the surroundings around it causing it to be difficult to see/aim at.
The Purple Dragon is also one that has the ability to shapeshift at will and mirror any language to hide in its urban environment.
I figured it be neat to see what a Urban Dragon be like, and this is something I could see it be like.
Molten chocolate and searing rainbows. I mean, Wizards shoot of pretty sparkling lights all the time and no one thinks twice about running away. Plus, its cruel irony that the best things in life are what is destroying you.
I HATE CHOCOLATE AND RAINBOWS ARE UGLY! RARARARARARA *Stomps*
But seriously, a cone of warmth makes more sense. Plus it makes the dragon a failure. Failures are inherently funny.
I HATE CHOCOLATE AND RAINBOWS ARE UGLY! RARARARARARA *Stomps*
But seriously, a cone of warmth makes more sense. Plus it makes the dragon a failure. Failures are inherently funny.
I am 99.9% sure that there was actually an AD&D dragon with some sort of prismatic spray (read: rainbow) breath weapon...
I HATE CHOCOLATE AND RAINBOWS ARE UGLY! RARARARARARA *Stomps*
But seriously, a cone of warmth makes more sense. Plus it makes the dragon a failure. Failures are inherently funny.
Cone of room temperature air.
Think about it, Pink Dragons would be able to make huge amounts of money serving as heating systems for powerful kings. Screw being evil, they can sit on a big pile of gold in the basement blowing into a tube every now and then to make sure the castle stays warm.
They'd be able to charge through the roof for that service!
I am 99.9% sure that there was actually an AD&D dragon with some sort of prismatic spray (read: rainbow) breath weapon...
Was it pink?
Didn't think so.
Cone of room temperature air.
Think about it, Pink Dragons would be able to make huge amounts of money serving as heating systems for powerful kings. Screw being evil, they can sit on a big pile of gold in the basement blowing into a tube every now and then to make sure the castle stays warm.
They'd be able to charge through the roof for that service!
This guy gets it. People in polar regions could also periodically **** off the dragon in a ritualistic manner (primitive tabloids?) to temper the climate in their villages. Then they would act all terrified, suppressing their laughter over getting free summer.
However, this thread has actually succeeded at doing the exact opposite of what this poster intended in at least one case. I was not planning to buy the Draconomicon. It didn't originally catch my interest. After seeing what they have done with the brown dragon, I like it so much, it is now on my wish list. Good job Razz! You just made 4e another buck...
If you're upset that they changed BROWN DRAGONS, of all things, then you shouldn't be playing this edition.
Just because someone doesn't like a few aspects of the edition change does not mean they can't otherwise be happy (the OP's overall opinion of 4th doesn't matter either). Some of us like the mechanical changes of 4th edition but feel as though many of the more flavor based changes were made meerly for the sake of change were it wasn't needed.
Just because something is old doesn't make it 'classic'.
---and just because something is new does not make it better.
[INDENT]PS: sorry to pick on you Nived, but your quote, though a little out of context, makes a good setup.[/INDENT]
At any rate, I believe it was changed for the sake of consistency. A big, quadrupedal lizard with wings that flies is a dragon. A big, quadrupedal lizard without wings that does not fly is a drake, IIRC (I don't THINK Rage Drakes fly, but I'm AFB). So, they were either going to give it wings and continue to call it a dragon, or rename it to Sand/Brown Drake.
Why does the iconic aspect of a dragon have to be giant flying lizard? Why can't it be giant lizard with a breath weapon? The old brown dragon may have laked the former but it possessed the later.
I love how he's a food fanatic.
Why do people keep bringing this up like it's something new and innovative. To my recollection this is actually a piece of old brown dragon fluff (dating back to the 2nd edition monster manual, though I can't seem to find my copy to confirm it). Even still I'm quite sure that I've read write-ups for individual dragons (of any classification) that have had this particular eating quirk.
Why do people keep bringing this up like it's something new and innovative. To my recollection this is actually a piece of old brown dragon fluff (dating back to the 2nd edition monster manual, though I can't seem to find my copy to confirm it). Even still I'm quite sure that I've read write-ups for individual dragons (of any classification) that have had this particular eating quirk.
It's new to me. My apologies for not having read the 2nd MM so often I can recall obscure facts about little used monster :P
It's new to me. My apologies for not having read the 2nd MM so often I can recall obscure facts about little used monster :P
Good point and sorry. I didn't mean to single you out (there are plenty of others I was aiming at as well). Though I did also mention individual dragons write-ups and not just the OLD brown dragon.
[INDENT]PS: Sorry to anyone else I may have bothered (unless you're a jerk
). I'm just in a ranty mood. Normally I spend most of my time quietly lurking. For some reason or another I've been far more vocal than I usually am, and it's not something I'm entirely accustomed to.[/INDENT]Well this is just what I personally would like to see:
Grey: It is Fog/Mist based. It is a Dragon that lives its entire life within natural or artificial fog and mist banks created by itself. This is a creature that prefers to use stealth and surprise to feed, using the rolling fog to cover itself.
Villages fear and grow terrified when they see a massive fog bank rolling down from the mountains, any which one could carry within it a Grey Dragon, which upon the fogs departure will leave just ruin in its wake. Not even sound can escape, muffled by the fog.
Ability wise, the Grey Dragon can perform Sneak Attacks when covered in its fog banks, can generate fog, summon bouts of wind and in the most powerful turn into fog itself.
FFIV inspired?
FFIV inspired?
Never played it :P Got something similar?
Never played it :P Got something similar?
The mist dragon is the first boss in the game. It can even turn inself into mist to auto-counter any attack. First CRPG boss I ever fought. Ah, good times
FFIV inspired?
I. LOVE. THAT. GAME. (the original, haven't played the DS update yet.)
back onto the quasi-topic: I like the direction that dragons have taken with 4th edition... but I find myself wondering exactly how the other types of dragons will be treated.
The whole Chromatic = evil, Metallic = Good, Gemstone = neutral thing just doesn't seem as important anymore, so will it still be around?
And when Metallic dragons get their book - will they be bringing back the metallics that got booted from the roster after 2nd edition - such as the mercury and steel dragons?
I'd like it if someone addressed my concern with the Brown Dragon from a page back: It has a Breath Weapon that it has to immediately move away from after using, or hurt itself by using. Worse, the breath weapon is made of hot sand, which the dragon spends all day burrowing through.
DS update is excellent as well.
I'd like it if someone addressed my concern with the Brown Dragon from a page back: It has a Breath Weapon that it has to immediately move away from after using, or hurt itself by using. Worse, the breath weapon is made of hot sand, which the dragon spends all day burrowing through.
Hopefully there is still an editing run for the material to go through before printing.
If that isn't the case, and the book releases with the details remaining the same - First Thread in it's corresponding Errata Forum already knows it's topic.
A dragon being able to hurt itself with it's own breath weapon is bad... especially for those people that try to apply real world physics knowledge to D&D - the poor creature would probably just die young from it's bloodied breath feature.
One thing I noticed is it's the only Dragon I've seen so far with no damage type on the Breath weapon. Considering the fluff and the dragon's Resist Fire 25, I would imagine it was supposed to be a Fire damage breath weapon that just didn't get typed properly.
Not likely - it says that the blast "creates an area of swirling sand" - sand is physical, and hence deals untyped damage like weapons do.
I am 99.9% sure that there was actually an AD&D dragon with some sort of prismatic spray (read: rainbow) breath weapon...
There was the Prismatic Dragon from the Epic Level Handbook back during 3.X. It spewed forth a prismatic breath weapon(and I believe was the most powerful dragon of that edition).
There was the Prismatic Dragon from the Epic Level Handbook back during 3.X. It spewed forth a prismatic breath weapon(and I believe was the most powerful dragon of that edition).
I believe it was too - the only other possible "most powerful dragon of that edition" would be a Force Dragon.
I believe it was too - the only other possible "most powerful dragon of that edition" would be a Force Dragon.
I made one of those in 4e, i grabbed a Black Dragon and decided to make an "Astral Dragon" but switching everything to Force.
I then later realised that all the "star" abilities the Warlock has deal either Radiant or Cold damage, so i switched him over to Radiant (along with his Kobold Dragonshield servitors), that turned out to be even more powerful, and successfully nullified the party paladin and priest.
Was amusing though.
Not likely - it says that the blast "creates an area of swirling sand" - sand is physical, and hence deals untyped damage like weapons do.
Sorry, I was refering to the part in Brown Dragon Lore:
DC 20: A brown dragon’s breath weapon is a blast of supernaturally hot and stinging sand that corrodes flesh and blocks all visibility.
That's the party that said "Fire" damage to me. That, and the Fire resist he sports.
Sorry, I was refering to the part in Brown Dragon Lore:
DC 20: A brown dragon’s breath weapon is a blast of supernaturally hot and stinging sand that corrodes flesh and blocks all visibility.
That's the party that said "Fire" damage to me. That, and the Fire resist he sports.
Mmmm, the thing is that "Fire" would allow creatures with fire resistance to resist the damage, but they're still going to cop it from the sand. If you've ever seen the results of something being sandblasted you probably know that heat is the least of your worries.
Mmmm, the thing is that "Fire" would allow creatures with fire resistance to resist the damage, but they're still going to cop it from the sand. If you've ever seen the results of something being sandblasted you probably know that heat is the least of your worries.
Oh, I agree on the sandblasting thing. I've read the full Dune series, I know the dangers of fast-moving sand :P
Still, I'm not sure how to fix this without typing it as Fire. The dragon is already resistant enough to Fire that the ongoing damage would not hurt it. I suppose you could change the Breath Weapon to say "any creature except Brown Dragons"?
Or just change it from creatures adjacant to the area to creatures actually in the area. Why on earth creatures adjacant to the area take damage as well is beyond me, if they want that, why not just make it a blast 12?
Although, it's clear that the area blocks line of sight for all creatures except the dragon, so it seems that they intend for the dragon to use it's breath weapon and then hide in the sand cloud, so i think just clarifying that Brown Dragons do not take damage from this ability would be fine.
The mist dragon is the first boss in the game. It can even turn inself into mist to auto-counter any attack. First CRPG boss I ever fought. Ah, good times
I have to make a confession. I only got through that dungeon because I was using an emulator and turned off the fog layer.
I'm so ashamed...
I have to make a confession. I only got through that dungeon because I was using an emulator and turned off the fog layer.
I'm so ashamed...
You sad, sad person...that game was hella fun, and the Gameboy version is just as fun, but PORTABLE! :D
FFVI on the Gameboy is ALSO simply amazing. :D
They were evil evil dragons...
The ability to hold their breath and burrow...
and the ability to create massive amounts of sand...
is a very nasty combo.
You sad, sad person...that game was hella fun, and the Gameboy version is just as fun, but PORTABLE! :D
FFVI on the Gameboy is ALSO simply amazing. :D
Meh. I liked the game but hated the "real time" combat system. It was unbalanced because while you have to specify a comand for each party memeber to move to the next, monsters just have at.
I imagine this lair would be not only surrounded by fog from the outside but would have a ever creeping layer of it on the inside, slowly rolling by the PCs feet.
Well, I think it be fun to represent the high-level Grey Dragons to have various traps based around its fog-transformation skill. I could see in my mind's eye a trap that when "triggered" would have the fog coil up in front of the PCs forming the Dragon's head, tail, claw, etc. and would lash out at the PC before exploding back into fog.
So the Grey Dragon be playing with the PCs by slipping back and forth into its solid and gaseous form, while they slowly make their way deeper into the lair.
In combat too you could have traps like that as well form around the PCs, it could take the form as above or also things like tripping the PCs, having a column of fog erupt around them blinding them from seeing outside of it, etc.
Flightless Dragons:
Brown Dragon (Monsters of Faerun)
Styx Dragon (Draconomicon)
also, from Oriental Adventures, one of the Lung dragons couldn't fly.
Prismatic Dragon (ELH): Breath is prismatic spray.
Radiant Dragon (Draconomicon): Breath is either force or light.
Pink Dragon (The Slayer's Guide to Dragons by Gary Gygax, Mongoose Pub p62): The pink dragon, crossbreed of red and white: Either one or both parent's breath weapons or an amalgamated version: Fire/Frost Breath Weapon. Does 1d10 fire per age category and 1d6 cold every other age category.
That said, do I care that they made it so the Brown could fly? No.
Would it be cool if they had left it so there was a flightless dragon? Yeah, I think so.
P.S. I have also used a brown dragon in an encounter. The burrowing was REALLY cool and unique. And I had the choice between the brown dragon and the NEARLY IDENTICAL yellow dragon, which had wings. (It existed in second edition and has been converted at enworld).
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/dragon/yellow_dragon.htm
So I guess I can see where someone might be upset by the change...but I can also just make browns flightless again.
I. LOVE. THAT. GAME. (the original, haven't played the DS update yet.)
back onto the quasi-topic: I like the direction that dragons have taken with 4th edition... but I find myself wondering exactly how the other types of dragons will be treated.
The whole Chromatic = evil, Metallic = Good, Gemstone = neutral thing just doesn't seem as important anymore, so will it still be around?
And when Metallic dragons get their book - will they be bringing back the metallics that got booted from the roster after 2nd edition - such as the mercury and steel dragons?
In 4e we have Chromatic = greedy, Catastrophic = destructive, Metallic = noble (mostly), Planar = planar aspect, and scourge = sadistic.
We may see mercury dragons, but the designers are steering away from alloys, so iron is probably the closest we will see to steel.
Wasn't the original Steel just Iron with less carbon in it? I thought alloyed Steel was a fairly modern invention (last few centuries.)
Steel is indeed processed iron at higher temperature and lower carbon.
Of course no alloy means no bronze Dragon.
Bronze is a metal alloy produced by blending copper and tin in various amounts.
Hmm some search appears to indicate steel is a alloy mixed with carbon.
But i'm fairly sure traditional Steel is just purer Iron forged at a higher temperature.
The 4e iron dragon that has been mentioned doesn't sound like the steel dragon of previous editions.