Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ralath62 Apr 24, 2011 11:40:44	Ok, looking at the HoS it lists Feral Assault as a Vampire Attack 3 power. For some reason taking the Novice Power feat in the online CB it does not give me the option of switching the power out. Any thoughts? To me it looks legal.
#2 lokiare Apr 24, 2011 13:09:47	Ok, looking at the HoS it lists Feral Assault as a Vampire Attack 3 power. For some reason taking the Novice Power feat in the online CB it does not give me the option of switching the power out. Any thoughts? To me it looks legal. From what I've heard/seen you won't be able to trade any powers out with the vampire because they are all named powers, though it may just be a typo in HoS thats causing the problems...
#3 thespaceinvader Apr 24, 2011 19:14:26	Ok, looking at the HoS it lists Feral Assault as a Vampire Attack 3 power. For some reason taking the Novice Power feat in the online CB it does not give me the option of switching the power out. Any thoughts? To me it looks legal. From what I've heard/seen you won't be able to trade any powers out with the vampire because they are all named powers, though it may just be a typo in HoS thats causing the problems... Irrelevant, they're levelled.  The language for the MC power swap feats works for them. I take it, OP, that you;re doing this by making a half-elf with Adept Dilettante?  There's no other way to do MC Vampire as far as I know. It might well be that Adept Dilettante isn't working properly as a multiclass feat like it should on the OCB and/or on the Vampire.  Suggest submitting a bug report.
#4 Damon_Tor Apr 24, 2011 22:55:42	Irrelevant, they're levelled.  The language for the MC power swap feats works for them. I take it, OP, that you;re doing this by making a half-elf with Adept Dilettante?  There's no other way to do MC Vampire as far as I know. It might well be that Adept Dilettante isn't working properly as a multiclass feat like it should on the OCB and/or on the Vampire.  Suggest submitting a bug report. You misunderstand the OP's plan.  He is a vampire Multiclassing into some other class, and wants to switch out Feral Assault for a power from his second class. You can't do this, apparently due to the wording regarding "choices" of powers.  You can only swap out, and retrain, powers which you have chosen.  Since the vampire doesn't choose any of his powers, he cannot swap any of them out. It's another very confusing and muddled artifact of 4eE and O4e interaction.
#5 ralath62 Apr 24, 2011 23:13:55	You misunderstand the OP's plan.  He is a vampire Multiclassing into some other class, and wants to switch out Feral Assault for a power from his second class. You can't do this, apparently due to the wording regarding "choices" of powers.  You can only swap out, and retrain, powers which you have chosen.  Since the vampire doesn't choose any of his powers, he cannot swap any of them out. It's another very confusing and muddled artifact of 4eE and O4e interaction. You are correct, I was trying to be a vamp that multiclasses. Hmm. If they can't multi even then they are even worse than I first suspected. 4eE is really disappointing me.
#6 thespaceinvader Apr 25, 2011 4:00:12	Novice power text: "You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into." Works finee for Vamp MC anything, or anything MC Vamp.
#7 Damon_Tor Apr 25, 2011 5:45:12	Novice power text: "You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into." Works finee for Vamp MC anything, or anything MC Vamp. There's special text negating this in the rules compendium, as I recall.  But then, I don't actually have the book (paying for errata: I'm not that big of a sucker) so I can't summon up a page number.
#8 ralath62 Apr 25, 2011 8:13:38	The online compendium says "Benefit: You can swap one encounter power you know for one encounter power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into." I still think it should work. Now if we could get the CB to reflect this.
#9 Grand_Theft_Otto Apr 25, 2011 16:25:56	Irrelevant, they're levelled.  The language for the MC power swap feats works for them. I take it, OP, that you;re doing this by making a half-elf with Adept Dilettante?  There's no other way to do MC Vampire as far as I know. It might well be that Adept Dilettante isn't working properly as a multiclass feat like it should on the OCB and/or on the Vampire.  Suggest submitting a bug report. You misunderstand the OP's plan.  He is a vampire Multiclassing into some other class, and wants to switch out Feral Assault for a power from his second class. You can't do this, apparently due to the wording regarding "choices" of powers.  You can only swap out, and retrain, powers which you have chosen.  Since the vampire doesn't choose any of his powers, he cannot swap any of them out. Technically he does.  Its just that there is currently only one choice. The class was written with powers and levels, rather than simply gaining class feature powers. Similarly, you should be able to swap theme powers for all levels, not just 2. Its because someone coded the class wrong, with the powers being default, rather than default through lack of other choices.
#10 Damon_Tor Apr 25, 2011 16:49:27	Technically he does.  Its just that there is currently only one choice. The class was written with powers and levels, rather than simply gaining class feature powers. Similarly, you should be able to swap theme powers for all levels, not just 2. Obviously, this is far from clear. The Vampire class progression table list the level 3 feature as "Feral Assault" not "Encounter Power".  This is the same logic that prevents a slayer from chosing a standard fighter utlity power at level 22. Again, my recollection is that there is specific wording in the Rules Compendium which prevents this, at least that's what I came across when investigating the Slayer utility issue.  If anyone has the "Big Book of Errata we Charge for" and feels like weighing in, that'd be awsome.
#11 Undrhil Apr 25, 2011 21:43:34	Again, my recollection is that there is specific wording in the Rules Compendium which prevents this, at least that's what I came across when investigating the Slayer utility issue.  If anyone has the "Big Book of Errata we Charge for" and feels like weighing in, that'd be awsome. If you didn't pay for it, why should you benefit from it?  Go buy it if you want to know. Just saying.
#12 Damon_Tor Apr 25, 2011 21:55:16	Again, my recollection is that there is specific wording in the Rules Compendium which prevents this, at least that's what I came across when investigating the Slayer utility issue.  If anyone has the "Big Book of Errata we Charge for" and feels like weighing in, that'd be awsome. If you didn't pay for it, why should you benefit from it?  Go buy it if you want to know. Just saying. Because I'm not looking for a new rule, I'm looking for errata.  And you know what, I'm not seeing it on the official rules changes page.  Huh.  Imagine that.
#13 Undrhil Apr 25, 2011 22:04:18	It looks like you are looking for a rule, not errata.  The Rules Compendium may contain errata, but it also contains rules.  You could try looking in the online compendium ... Oh, oops!  You're not a D&Di subscriber either. Stop trying to get for free what many of us on the forums pays for: the rules of the game.
#14 Damon_Tor Apr 26, 2011 3:05:36	Anyway, back to attempting to help somebody: RC page 87 prohibits retraining "a power designated as a feature" but that's in the section dealing with retraining, not swapping; this is likely the section I was thinking of.  Page 90 discusses swapping powers, but doesn't mention powers-which-are-features at all. So I guess I rescind my objection then.  By RAW it appears a vampire should be able to swap out his level 3 attack power for something else, as well as his various daily powers.  Of course, the other side of this finding is that Slayers can swap their baked in utilities if they multiclass, and the blackguard can swap out his level 4 utlity power.
#15 lokiare Apr 26, 2011 13:35:20	It looks like you are looking for a rule, not errata.  The Rules Compendium may contain errata, but it also contains rules.  You could try looking in the online compendium ... Oh, oops!  You're not a D&Di subscriber either. Stop trying to get for free what many of us on the forums pays for: the rules of the game. apparently you don't know who you're talking at... If we wanted to get rules for free it'd be done and over with. If we don't get them for free its because of personal restraint...
#16 onimachi Apr 26, 2011 19:21:53	Ok, looking at the HoS it lists Feral Assault as a Vampire Attack 3 power. For some reason taking the Novice Power feat in the online CB it does not give me the option of switching the power out. Any thoughts? To me it looks legal. From what I've heard/seen you won't be able to trade any powers out with the vampire because they are all named powers, though it may just be a typo in HoS thats causing the problems... I just read your spoiler about Essentials, and let me say, my friends and I agree with you, and while we like 4e a lot, it seems like the Devs are trying to switch markets from the more traditional players to a younger audience.  Several of the groups in NYC I know are thinking about Pathfinder.
#17 salla Apr 26, 2011 20:55:33	I just read your spoiler about Essentials, and let me say, my friends and I agree with you, and while we like 4e a lot, it seems like the Devs are trying to switch markets from the more traditional players to a younger audience.  Several of the groups in NYC I know are thinking about Pathfinder. Why?  If you like 4e, why wouldn't just keep playing 4e?
#18 onimachi Apr 26, 2011 22:47:31	Well, its a bit complicated. For one, we are still playing 4e, we are just looking for other alternatives so we can switch out of it The Essentials content (which seem to be the way D&D is heading) are a big problem for me, because they lessen my favorite part of D&D, the character customization.  The easy streamlining is great for beginners, and I am always in favor of more options rather than less. For vets like myself and my friends however, it's nicer to play the old classes which are not locked into as many power choices, and these classes seem to be supported less and less, almost as if they are being phased out The content for the insider subscription is good and I am currently a subscriber, but I wish they would deliver on all of the content they had put forth when I first subscribed (years ago).  Also, the online character builder and monster creator lack many of the features of their unsupported offline parents, namely homebrew, easy item sorting and again, customization (items, profile pictures, etc.)  Not to mention the way the articles are now being handled (latness, essentials heavy, favoring fluff).  Remember when we got that article a couple years ago on Gladiator feats and such? when have we ever seen that much interesting fluff and crunch outside a sourcebook since? To summerize, the game is moving towards less options rather than more, and that is not in line with what I like in an rpg, so while I like the game (and would reccomend it to someone who is just starting out), I think I might have more fun elsewhere.
#19 lokiare Apr 27, 2011 0:47:22	Well, its a bit complicated. For one, we are still playing 4e, we are just looking for other alternatives so we can switch out of it The Essentials content (which seem to be the way D&D is heading) are a big problem for me, because they lessen my favorite part of D&D, the character customization.  The easy streamlining is great for beginners, and I am always in favor of more options rather than less. For vets like myself and my friends however, it's nicer to play the old classes which are not locked into as many power choices, and these classes seem to be supported less and less, almost as if they are being phased out The content for the insider subscription is good and I am currently a subscriber, but I wish they would deliver on all of the content they had put forth when I first subscribed (years ago).  Also, the online character builder and monster creator lack many of the features of their unsupported offline parents, namely homebrew, easy item sorting and again, customization (items, profile pictures, etc.)  Not to mention the way the articles are now being handled (latness, essentials heavy, favoring fluff).  Remember when we got that article a couple years ago on Gladiator feats and such? when have we ever seen that much interesting fluff and crunch outside a sourcebook since? To summerize, the game is moving towards less options rather than more, and that is not in line with what I like in an rpg, so while I like the game (and would reccomend it to someone who is just starting out), I think I might have more fun elsewhere.  +1
#20 Grand_Theft_Otto Apr 27, 2011 16:36:55	Technically he does.  Its just that there is currently only one choice. The class was written with powers and levels, rather than simply gaining class feature powers. Similarly, you should be able to swap theme powers for all levels, not just 2. Obviously, this is far from clear. The Vampire class progression table list the level 3 feature as "Feral Assault" not "Encounter Power".  This is the same logic that prevents a slayer from chosing a standard fighter utlity power at level 22. Again, my recollection is that there is specific wording in the Rules Compendium which prevents this, at least that's what I came across when investigating the Slayer utility issue.  If anyone has the "Big Book of Errata we Charge for" and feels like weighing in, that'd be awsome. I think the difference is, Feral Assault doesnt have a level. Its why slayers and knights can swap out their utilities (because they have a level), but not power strike. Someone coded it as though there is no choice, rather than the choice currently being your "choice" of the only published option.
#21 kenjoon Apr 27, 2011 16:59:46	The Essentials content (which seem to be the way D&D is heading) are a big problem for me, because they lessen my favorite part of D&D, the character customization.  The easy streamlining is great for beginners, and I am always in favor of more options rather than less. For vets like myself and my friends however, it's nicer to play the old classes which are not locked into as many power choices, and these classes seem to be supported less and less, almost as if they are being phased out Kindly explain how additional material causes older material to be "phased out"?  Does the mere presence of essentials material cause your PHB1 to burst into flames? (/sarcasm)  From where I sit, they have added a new option.  As with all things, the more options they are supporting the less specific content you will get for the option you like.  HOS has provided additional options for pre-E classes as well as E-classes so I'm not sure what would cause you to think that some things are being "phased out".
#22 thespaceinvader Apr 28, 2011 2:56:20	I think the difference is, Feral Assault doesnt have a level. Its why slayers and knights can swap out their utilities (because they have a level), but not power strike. Someone coded it as though there is no choice, rather than the choice currently being your "choice" of the only published option. Erm... Feral Assault does have a level.  Blood Drinker doesn't.
#23 Damon_Tor Apr 28, 2011 7:10:01	I think the difference is, Feral Assault doesnt have a level. Its why slayers and knights can swap out their utilities (because they have a level), but not power strike. Someone coded it as though there is no choice, rather than the choice currently being your "choice" of the only published option. Erm... Feral Assault does have a level.  Blood Drinker doesn't. Plus, my point was that I thought it was generally understood that slayers can't swap out their baked in utilities.
#24 thespaceinvader Apr 28, 2011 7:16:21	Not on levelling, no, but they can using MC feats. Didn't we already have this discussion o_O
#25 pyke_moonshadow Apr 28, 2011 11:25:54	Right, so when I see that Feral Assualt has a level I think I should be able to swap it out like I could any other level 3 encounter power.
#26 thespaceinvader Apr 28, 2011 18:02:31	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW.
#27 Damon_Tor Apr 29, 2011 2:57:15	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped.
#28 lokiare Apr 29, 2011 3:07:27	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped. Yes because if you could swap it out, who in their right mind would make a non-hybrid non-multiclass vampire?
#29 thespaceinvader Apr 29, 2011 3:32:52	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped. I really, really hope not.  Letting the programmers code their interpretation of the rules as opposed to the actual rules is really, realy stupid.
#30 kenjoon Apr 29, 2011 16:52:14	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped. I really, really hope not.  Letting the programmers code their interpretation of the rules as opposed to the actual rules is really, realy stupid. I'd be shocked to hear this is true.  The coders are probably in the same offices as R&D (they probably play in some of the same games).  That said I find it likely that they could be coding based on "pre-errata" meaning that they aren't sure of something so the ask R&D guys who give them a ruling and that's what they go with expecting that a clarification will be published in the errata or that it doesn't need errata.
#31 lokiare Apr 29, 2011 21:31:46	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped. I really, really hope not.  Letting the programmers code their interpretation of the rules as opposed to the actual rules is really, realy stupid. I'd be shocked to hear this is true.  The coders are probably in the same offices as R&D (they probably play in some of the same games).  That said I find it likely that they could be coding based on "pre-errata" meaning that they aren't sure of something so the ask R&D guys who give them a ruling and that's what they go with expecting that a clarification will be published in the errata or that it doesn't need errata. Yeah, that's a stretch... with all of the, how is the proper nice way of saying this, shenanigans we've seen WotC I wouldn't put anything past them that has to do with um, what word should I use?, incompetence...
#32 kenjoon Apr 30, 2011 2:45:27	Indeed you can. The CB may not permit it, but the CB is not RAW. At this point, this is becoming unclear: the CB and the compendium had the "correct" version of the cavalier's mount power months before the actual article was given any errata.  It was "retroactive RAW" so to speak.  It's entirely possible that the developers do not believe that Vampire swapping out Feral Assault is legal, and so coded it so that it could not be swapped. I really, really hope not.  Letting the programmers code their interpretation of the rules as opposed to the actual rules is really, realy stupid. I'd be shocked to hear this is true.  The coders are probably in the same offices as R&D (they probably play in some of the same games).  That said I find it likely that they could be coding based on "pre-errata" meaning that they aren't sure of something so the ask R&D guys who give them a ruling and that's what they go with expecting that a clarification will be published in the errata or that it doesn't need errata. Yeah, that's a stretch... with all of the, how is the proper nice way of saying this, shenanigans we've seen WotC I wouldn't put anything past them that has to do with um, what word should I use?, incompetence... I'm sorry.  What part exactly is it that you're calling a stretch?  The part where the programmers and R&D are in the same building?  Perhaps it's the part where the programmers aren't sure of something so they ask R&D how it's supposed to work so they can code it correctly?  The rest is just my (possibly poorly worded) description of the above 2 items.  If you're seeing something else here then you're reading something into my post that I did not intend.
#33 artoomis Apr 30, 2011 12:45:44	Oh, for goodness' sake... If you think this current coding is an error (I agree it is), submit a bug report and move on... Arguing further about has, roughly, zero value.
#34 lokiare Apr 30, 2011 20:00:43	Oh, for goodness' sake... If you think this current coding is an error (I agree it is), submit a bug report and move on... Arguing further about has, roughly, zero value. Speak for yourself. I find it highly entertaining how far people will go to defend WotC's incompetence (regardless of whether it lies in the developers, designers, or management)...
#35 artoomis Apr 30, 2011 21:21:08	Oh, for goodness' sake... If you think this current coding is an error (I agree it is), submit a bug report and move on... Arguing further about has, roughly, zero value. Speak for yourself. I find it highly entertaining how far people will go to defend WotC's incompetence (regardless of whether it lies in the developers, designers, or management)... Chill out... constantly arguing that WotC is incompetent is not exactly endearing you to anyone.  Pointing our errors actually has value, using that to go off on how WOTC is incompetent does not. Of course, I expect you will do what you want and not listen to me or, probably, anyone else. And that’s all I’ll say on this subject.  That’s already dangerously close to a ToS violation, and, besides, I have no wish to have an extended conversation with anyone on how he/she behaves on this or any other site.
#36 lokiare May 01, 2011 0:56:27	Oh, for goodness' sake... If you think this current coding is an error (I agree it is), submit a bug report and move on... Arguing further about has, roughly, zero value. Speak for yourself. I find it highly entertaining how far people will go to defend WotC's incompetence (regardless of whether it lies in the developers, designers, or management)... Chill out... constantly arguing that WotC is incompetent is not exactly endearing you to anyone.  Pointing our errors actually has value, using that to go off on how WOTC is incompetent does not. Of course, I expect you will do what you want and not listen to me or, probably, anyone else. And that’s all I’ll say on this subject.  That’s already dangerously close to a ToS violation, and, besides, I have no wish to have an extended conversation with anyone on how he/she behaves on this or any other site. I did cool out for a month or two. Barely commenting just noting the bad, but not getting riled about it. WotC continued in their downhill slide. At some point the people that like the game have to speak out against their corporate B.S. I just reached my limit...
#37 buufreak May 02, 2011 14:08:10	My biggest issue with everything from HoS is that most all things vampire. They have no power choices, they have no feats to select based on classes. Everything is set in stone. What happened to the great flexibility of 4e? When it first came out, I was happy of the versitility, and now everything is once you select build, you are set like that forever, with no chance of dabling into anything else. Essentials has done exactly what it was supposed to: Simplify. Problem? EVERYTHING IS OVER SIMPLIFIED! You level, and it takes all ability to make choices away from you.
#38 artoomis May 02, 2011 15:59:19	My biggest issue with everything from HoS is that most all things vampire. They have no power choices, they have no feats to select based on classes. Everything is set in stone. What happened to the great flexibility of 4e? When it first came out, I was happy of the versitility, and now everything is once you select build, you are set like that forever, with no chance of dabling into anything else. Essentials has done exactly what it was supposed to: Simplify. Problem? EVERYTHING IS OVER SIMPLIFIED! You level, and it takes all ability to make choices away from you. First it does not take away all the choices, but it does remove a lot of them, which is just what it is supposed to do.  If you want all the choices, do not use an essentials class.  This is how it is designed.  Taking an essentials class is a choice  that, by design, precludes some other choices.  They are simpler characters.