Can't pick 'Jack of all Trades' - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Can't pick 'Jack of all Trades'

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
almuric
May 26, 2009 9:37:49 My 10th level sorcerer has a 12 Int. His 8th level feat is 'Bardic Knowledge' (multi-classed to bard). I leveled him up to 11th level. He now has a 13 intelligence. The character sheet will not, in any way, allow me to swap 'Jack of all Trades' for 'Bardic Knowledge'.

I can't unpick my 8th level feat and pick JoaT instead. It will also not allow me to pick JoaT on the retraining page. It will allow me to pick it as my 11th level feat, though. I had to 'houserule' the swap. Now my character sheet says I've got an illegal character. Why? Once I have a 13 Int I should be able to pick JoaT at any level, right?
#2
tiamatthedragongod
May 27, 2009 7:18:27 Post your character summery from the summery section of your manage tab.

May be you're doing something else inadvertantly...
#3
jhanzur
May 27, 2009 18:11:41 Make sure you are retraining at level 11, not level 8. The level at which you choose to retrain dictates the stats you have to qualify for feats.
#4
mdonais
May 29, 2009 15:57:56 You don't have enough int at level 8 so you cannot retrain a level 8 feat into a feat you were not qualified for at level 8.

You can take Jack of all trades at level 12 though.
#5
DMaple
Jun 01, 2009 10:02:05 Yeah it needs to be legal at the level you choose it and unless you put one of the other stat boosts at 4 or 8 into Int, then your Intelligence would not be high enough until level 11.

Saying that however, you aren't technically legal for Paragon feats until 11th level but you can retrain feats from lower levels to Paragon level once you qualify so I don't see why the attribute restriction applies for retraining, if the level one doesn't.
#6
jhanzur
Jun 01, 2009 15:06:38
Yeah it needs to be legal at the level you choose it and unless you put one of the other stat boosts at 4 or 8 into Int, then your Intelligence would not be high enough until level 11.

Saying that however, you aren't technically legal for Paragon feats until 11th level but you can retrain feats from lower levels to Paragon level once you qualify so I don't see why the attribute restriction applies for retraining, if the level one doesn't.

You're using rules from 3.5 here. The new rules dictate that when you retrain a feat, you can take any feat that you currently qualify for. So, if you didn't qualify for something at 6 when you wanted to take a feat, and now qualify for it at 8, you can retrain a feat to take it.
#7
Cailte
Jun 02, 2009 2:16:44 Hmm...

At level 11 in the retraining tab you should be able to replace Bardic Knowledge with any other feat you qualify for at 11th level.

You will not be able to retrain it to Jack of All Trades before level 11 however.

I have tested it quickly with a character and it worked fine for me.
#8
tiamatthedragongod
Jun 02, 2009 9:54:47
Hmm...

At level 11 in the retraining tab you should be able to replace Bardic Knowledge with any other feat you qualify for at 11th level.

You will not be able to retrain it to Jack of All Trades before level 11 however.

I have tested it quickly with a character and it worked fine for me.

Did you make sure that your character did NOT meet the requirements at level 8? Because it isn't working for me either even though I have a 13 int at level 11. (I only have 12 at level 8)

According to the retraining rules however what the OP is attempting SHOULD be possible. So it must be a CB bug or coding error. I'm not sure why mdonais didn't specify such.
#9
Nibelung_ajr
Jun 03, 2009 0:29:25
Did you make sure that your character did NOT meet the requirements at level 8? Because it isn't working for me either even though I have a 13 int at level 11. (I only have 12 at level 8)

According to the retraining rules however what the OP is attempting SHOULD be possible. So it must be a CB bug or coding error. I'm not sure why mdonais didn't specify such.

Nope, check the retrain tab. He can do the change if he use his lvl 11 retrain slot to do this. He cant change it using his lvl 8 retrains slot because on lvl 8 he dont have int 13.
#10
Cailte
Jun 03, 2009 4:42:44 Yes I made sure. 12 Int at level 1, no boosts before level 11.

With your level 11 retraining slot it works fine, as I said in my last post.
#11
almuric
Jun 03, 2009 9:52:22 Perhaps I didn't elucidate clearly enough.

My character, a gnome sorcerer, started off with a 12 INT. When I leveled him up to 11th level, using the 'Level Up' button, his INT changed to 13 (because all stats get a +1 at 11th). He is now a Paragon level character, although that's irrelevant to the problem as both feats are Heroic level feats.

Since he has just leveled up, he is allowed to retrain something. He wants to retrain the feat he picked at 8th level. It shouldn't matter what feat this was. It was Bardic Knowledge, but it could have been Leather Proficiency or Improved Initiative. When I go to the 'Retraining' page, it does not give me 'Jack of All Trades' as one of the choices that I can retrain my 8th level feat to. Why not? I have a 13 INT, which is the only requirement. And it's not only the 8th level feat. I can't pick JoaT for any feat slot other than the 11th level one. And I don't want to use my 11th level slot to pick it, as I want to pick a Paragon level feat for that one.

But since all feat slots are equal, ostensibly, what makes the 11th level slot different from the 8th level slot? The 11th level slot obviously sees that I have a 13 INT, so why doesn't the 8th level slot pick up on this fact?

Mike, I'm really not sure what's supposed to happen at 12th level that didn't happen at 11th. Could you clarify?

(Note that I haven't run the CB in a couple of days, so I'm not sure if this issue is still a problem with the newest update. I'll see if I can remember to try it tonight.)
#12
tiamatthedragongod
Jun 03, 2009 10:36:19 Gotcha!!

@almuric:

On the retraining tab, at the bottom click LEVEL 11 not level 8 because you are retraining AT level 11 not level 8. It's a little unintuative, but it does make sence...

All your feats will be listed, so you can retrain any single one of them at level 11.

You can only retrain one feat/skill/etc per level so each line of level is there for one retraining option.
#13
Nibelung_ajr
Jun 03, 2009 19:37:06 Explaining with images. Let us do a random character with 12 initial Inteligence.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2euj4b4.gif

Lets us choose random feats until lvl 10.

http://i39.tinypic.com/311njt4.gif

Then, we do the magic jump to lvl 11. Woot! 13 Int!

http://i39.tinypic.com/t8vnn5.gif

Now, that's the trick thing. The retrain tab let us choose one retrain for each level we attain. Só, let us want to change our lvl 8 feat, Deft Footwork. How do we do that?

http://i42.tinypic.com/2430zo7.gif

Nope, that dont work. While he was lvl 8, he get only 12 Int, so i can't choose JoaT with my 8th lvl retrain. Let's do this in perfect chronological order then. We are lvl 11, so we are going to retrain at level 11.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2la7byf.gif

Now it worked.

So, what we learned today? That we need to get our retraining exactly when we need to retrain, and using the retrain tab. Just changing the feat selection ou trying to retrain the wrong level will not work, and your character will be marked houseruled.
#14
Mock
Jun 04, 2009 14:29:28 While it's nice to see that it does actually work, what I have also learned is that the character builder is being way too annoying for its own good. If, under the rules, you can retrain any previous feat so long as you qualify for the new feat at the moment of retraining, then slots shouldn't matter, right? It should just list feats, and not require me to pick the "retraining slot," but rather just pick old feat, new feat, and click "retrain."

Of course, I don't have my book, so if you actually have to track your feat slots for retraining, then the Builder works fine, and the rules are way to annoying for their own good.
#15
almuric
Jun 04, 2009 14:49:55 Ok, yeah. My bad. I didn't understand the retraining page. I thought I should pick the 8th level slot, since that's the level my character was when he picked the feat. I understand now. Color me pink for embarrassment.
#16
Nibelung_ajr
Jun 04, 2009 23:34:06
While it's nice to see that it does actually work, what I have also learned is that the character builder is being way too annoying for its own good. If, under the rules, you can retrain any previous feat so long as you qualify for the new feat at the moment of retraining, then slots shouldn't matter, right? It should just list feats, and not require me to pick the "retraining slot," but rather just pick old feat, new feat, and click "retrain."

Of course, I don't have my book, so if you actually have to track your feat slots for retraining, then the Builder works fine, and the rules are way to annoying for their own good.

You can retrain only once per level (except multiclass power swap feats, which have an separeted retrain slot), so if you are leveling as you play, the retrain slots are great for tracking what you changed each level. This is annoying only if you already build a high-level character. Level-by-level that works fine.
#17
Mock
Jun 05, 2009 7:37:15
You can retrain only once per level (except multiclass power swap feats, which have an separeted retrain slot), so if you are leveling as you play, the retrain slots are great for tracking what you changed each level. This is annoying only if you already build a high-level character. Level-by-level that works fine.

Good point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 almuric May 26, 2009 9:37:49	My 10th level sorcerer has a 12 Int. His 8th level feat is 'Bardic Knowledge' (multi-classed to bard). I leveled him up to 11th level. He now has a 13 intelligence. The character sheet will not, in any way, allow me to swap 'Jack of all Trades' for 'Bardic Knowledge'. I can't unpick my 8th level feat and pick JoaT instead. It will also not allow me to pick JoaT on the retraining page. It will allow me to pick it as my 11th level feat, though. I had to 'houserule' the swap. Now my character sheet says I've got an illegal character. Why? Once I have a 13 Int I should be able to pick JoaT at any level, right?
#2 tiamatthedragongod May 27, 2009 7:18:27	Post your character summery from the summery section of your manage tab. May be you're doing something else inadvertantly...
#3 jhanzur May 27, 2009 18:11:41	Make sure you are retraining at level 11, not level 8. The level at which you choose to retrain dictates the stats you have to qualify for feats.
#4 mdonais May 29, 2009 15:57:56	You don't have enough int at level 8 so you cannot retrain a level 8 feat into a feat you were not qualified for at level 8. You can take Jack of all trades at level 12 though.
#5 DMaple Jun 01, 2009 10:02:05	Yeah it needs to be legal at the level you choose it and unless you put one of the other stat boosts at 4 or 8 into Int, then your Intelligence would not be high enough until level 11. Saying that however, you aren't technically legal for Paragon feats until 11th level but you can retrain feats from lower levels to Paragon level once you qualify so I don't see why the attribute restriction applies for retraining, if the level one doesn't.
#6 jhanzur Jun 01, 2009 15:06:38	Yeah it needs to be legal at the level you choose it and unless you put one of the other stat boosts at 4 or 8 into Int, then your Intelligence would not be high enough until level 11. Saying that however, you aren't technically legal for Paragon feats until 11th level but you can retrain feats from lower levels to Paragon level once you qualify so I don't see why the attribute restriction applies for retraining, if the level one doesn't. You're using rules from 3.5 here. The new rules dictate that when you retrain a feat, you can take any feat that you currently qualify for. So, if you didn't qualify for something at 6 when you wanted to take a feat, and now qualify for it at 8, you can retrain a feat to take it.
#7 Cailte Jun 02, 2009 2:16:44	Hmm... At level 11 in the retraining tab you should be able to replace Bardic Knowledge with any other feat you qualify for at 11th level. You will not be able to retrain it to Jack of All Trades before level 11 however. I have tested it quickly with a character and it worked fine for me.
#8 tiamatthedragongod Jun 02, 2009 9:54:47	Hmm... At level 11 in the retraining tab you should be able to replace Bardic Knowledge with any other feat you qualify for at 11th level. You will not be able to retrain it to Jack of All Trades before level 11 however. I have tested it quickly with a character and it worked fine for me. Did you make sure that your character did NOT meet the requirements at level 8? Because it isn't working for me either even though I have a 13 int at level 11. (I only have 12 at level 8) According to the retraining rules however what the OP is attempting SHOULD be possible. So it must be a CB bug or coding error. I'm not sure why mdonais didn't specify such.
#9 Nibelung_ajr Jun 03, 2009 0:29:25	Did you make sure that your character did NOT meet the requirements at level 8? Because it isn't working for me either even though I have a 13 int at level 11. (I only have 12 at level 8) According to the retraining rules however what the OP is attempting SHOULD be possible. So it must be a CB bug or coding error. I'm not sure why mdonais didn't specify such. Nope, check the retrain tab. He can do the change if he use his lvl 11 retrain slot to do this. He cant change it using his lvl 8 retrains slot because on lvl 8 he dont have int 13.
#10 Cailte Jun 03, 2009 4:42:44	Yes I made sure. 12 Int at level 1, no boosts before level 11. With your level 11 retraining slot it works fine, as I said in my last post.
#11 almuric Jun 03, 2009 9:52:22	Perhaps I didn't elucidate clearly enough. My character, a gnome sorcerer, started off with a 12 INT. When I leveled him up to 11th level, using the 'Level Up' button, his INT changed to 13 (because all stats get a +1 at 11th). He is now a Paragon level character, although that's irrelevant to the problem as both feats are Heroic level feats. Since he has just leveled up, he is allowed to retrain something. He wants to retrain the feat he picked at 8th level. It shouldn't matter what feat this was. It was Bardic Knowledge, but it could have been Leather Proficiency or Improved Initiative. When I go to the 'Retraining' page, it does not give me 'Jack of All Trades' as one of the choices that I can retrain my 8th level feat to. Why not? I have a 13 INT, which is the only requirement. And it's not only the 8th level feat. I can't pick JoaT for any feat slot other than the 11th level one. And I don't want to use my 11th level slot to pick it, as I want to pick a Paragon level feat for that one. But since all feat slots are equal, ostensibly, what makes the 11th level slot different from the 8th level slot? The 11th level slot obviously sees that I have a 13 INT, so why doesn't the 8th level slot pick up on this fact? Mike, I'm really not sure what's supposed to happen at 12th level that didn't happen at 11th. Could you clarify? (Note that I haven't run the CB in a couple of days, so I'm not sure if this issue is still a problem with the newest update. I'll see if I can remember to try it tonight.)
#12 tiamatthedragongod Jun 03, 2009 10:36:19	Gotcha!! @almuric: On the retraining tab, at the bottom click LEVEL 11 not level 8 because you are retraining AT level 11 not level 8. It's a little unintuative, but it does make sence... All your feats will be listed, so you can retrain any single one of them at level 11. You can only retrain one feat/skill/etc per level so each line of level is there for one retraining option.
#13 Nibelung_ajr Jun 03, 2009 19:37:06	Explaining with images. Let us do a random character with 12 initial Inteligence. http://i39.tinypic.com/2euj4b4.gif Lets us choose random feats until lvl 10. http://i39.tinypic.com/311njt4.gif Then, we do the magic jump to lvl 11. Woot! 13 Int! http://i39.tinypic.com/t8vnn5.gif Now, that's the trick thing. The retrain tab let us choose one retrain for each level we attain. Só, let us want to change our lvl 8 feat, Deft Footwork. How do we do that? http://i42.tinypic.com/2430zo7.gif Nope, that dont work. While he was lvl 8, he get only 12 Int, so i can't choose JoaT with my 8th lvl retrain. Let's do this in perfect chronological order then. We are lvl 11, so we are going to retrain at level 11. http://i43.tinypic.com/2la7byf.gif Now it worked. So, what we learned today? That we need to get our retraining exactly when we need to retrain, and using the retrain tab. Just changing the feat selection ou trying to retrain the wrong level will not work, and your character will be marked houseruled.
#14 Mock Jun 04, 2009 14:29:28	While it's nice to see that it does actually work, what I have also learned is that the character builder is being way too annoying for its own good. If, under the rules, you can retrain any previous feat so long as you qualify for the new feat at the moment of retraining, then slots shouldn't matter, right? It should just list feats, and not require me to pick the "retraining slot," but rather just pick old feat, new feat, and click "retrain." Of course, I don't have my book, so if you actually have to track your feat slots for retraining, then the Builder works fine, and the rules are way to annoying for their own good.
#15 almuric Jun 04, 2009 14:49:55	Ok, yeah. My bad. I didn't understand the retraining page. I thought I should pick the 8th level slot, since that's the level my character was when he picked the feat. I understand now. Color me pink for embarrassment.
#16 Nibelung_ajr Jun 04, 2009 23:34:06	While it's nice to see that it does actually work, what I have also learned is that the character builder is being way too annoying for its own good. If, under the rules, you can retrain any previous feat so long as you qualify for the new feat at the moment of retraining, then slots shouldn't matter, right? It should just list feats, and not require me to pick the "retraining slot," but rather just pick old feat, new feat, and click "retrain." Of course, I don't have my book, so if you actually have to track your feat slots for retraining, then the Builder works fine, and the rules are way to annoying for their own good. You can retrain only once per level (except multiclass power swap feats, which have an separeted retrain slot), so if you are leveling as you play, the retrain slots are great for tracking what you changed each level. This is annoying only if you already build a high-level character. Level-by-level that works fine.
#17 Mock Jun 05, 2009 7:37:15	You can retrain only once per level (except multiclass power swap feats, which have an separeted retrain slot), so if you are leveling as you play, the retrain slots are great for tracking what you changed each level. This is annoying only if you already build a high-level character. Level-by-level that works fine. Good point.