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cb armor problems

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
silma
Mar 06, 2012 7:50:26 Hi everyone. I've been having a problem with the character builder recently. What happens is that magic armors give way more AC than they should. It's like they're adding the enhancement bonus twice or something. It doesn't happen with all armors, but with most. For example, a magil leather armor +6 gives a total of 10 AC instead of 8. But a magic scale armor +6, gives a total of 18 AC instead of 13. Do u have any idea what's up with that? Is it a bug, or some sort or rule I'm missing?
#2
salla
Mar 06, 2012 14:50:47 You're missing the Masterwork Armor rule.
#3
silma
Mar 06, 2012 17:34:58 Can you please explain? Cuz I can't seem to find it anywhere...
I know about the better armors like feyleather (which gives an extra 2 armor bonus to AC for a total of 4) and drakescale etc, but even a simple enchanted magic armor gives more AC than it should (according to what I know so far), in the character builder.
#4
salla
Mar 06, 2012 20:11:33
Can you please explain? Cuz I can't seem to find it anywhere...
I know about the better armors like feyleather (which gives an extra 2 armor bonus to AC for a total of 4) and drakescale etc, but even a simple enchanted magic armor gives more AC than it should (according to what I know so far), in the character builder.

Basically, all armor of sufficient enhancement bonus (varies by armor type) is automatically masterworked. The CB makes the armor masterwork so you don't short yourself AC you should be getting.
#5
RedSiegfried
Mar 07, 2012 0:32:36 And to clarify, that is a game rule, not just something the CB does. The tables explaining the armor and enhancement bonuses for particular levels and types of magic armor are in Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms. Unfortunately, you won't find those tables published anywhere else but the CB does calculate them correctly in all cases whether its a specific masterwork armor type or just any other kind of magic armor.
#6
silma
Mar 07, 2012 2:49:33 ah, I see...
that is just great cuz AC always seemed a bit lower than other defenses.
Well, thanks a lot guys!!!
#7
_Mithreinmaethor_
Mar 07, 2012 13:14:37 This is why purchasing the books and reading them will always trump trying to just let the Compendium be your only rules reference.
#8
mhblis1
Mar 07, 2012 14:29:16 I actually had the opposite problem with Eldarin Chain armor it was only giving me the enhancment bonus and not the base +6 of chain mail
#9
silma
Mar 07, 2012 16:42:29
This is why purchasing the books and reading them will always trump trying to just let the Compendium be your only rules reference.

well i have phb 1 and 2 dmg and mm1, but I really can't afford all those other books. Dnd insider was the only way to have access to other books, so I kinda sticked with that.
#10
RedSiegfried
Mar 08, 2012 11:48:10 They REALLY should publish those armor tables somewhere other than the Essentials books. For such a major change to the way armor works, they should have at least published them in an update or errata document. The OP's question is such a common question - just about everyone who uses CB gets confused by it at one time or another and if they don't own one of those two Essentials books there is simply no explanation for the increased AC.
#11
salla
Mar 08, 2012 13:09:20 Last I checked, the rules and table for Masterwork Armor were also in the PHB.
#12
RedSiegfried
Mar 09, 2012 13:06:51
Last I checked, the rules and table for Masterwork Armor were also in the PHB.

Kinda, but not really. It doesn't cover all the levels/enhancement bonuses and it doesn't specifically state that all armor is masterwork armor because at that point, it wasn't. AV implies/states that, however. But regardless, those sources are out of date since Essentials where masterwork armor apparently no longer exists* and instead of having masterwork armor, all magic armors have an armor bonus equivalent to the way (most) masterwork armors worked in the older books. AFAIK, post-Essentials, the word "masterwork" doesn't appear anywhere in any rules source. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Since this question comes up all the time from many people, it's obviously not clear enough to most people. Armor bonuses of magic armor has been handled poorly since day one and with Essentials it's been mostly cleared up. Problem is that the tables that clarify this are not available unless you purchase one of the "Heroes Of" books.

* Masterwork armor, as a distinct mechanical concept, no longer exists. It's basically fluff now. You can still find specific masterwork armor types from AV in the CB which do not adhere to the tables from the Essentials books and everyone still uses them, but CB is not a rules source. For example, in HoTFL it says that +2 plate has an armor bonus of +9 but in AV there is one +2 plate that has an armor bonus of +8 and resist 1 all instead. So there are exceptions.
#13
TardisMaximus
Apr 01, 2012 17:41:19 It seems broken again...

I just rolled up a level 5 with +2 Chain.

His AC was 22.
10 + 2 (half level) + 6 (Chain, 5+1) + (2 Enh) = 20.

This char has no shield, no feats, and no powers.

What am i missing?
>.>
#14
salla
Apr 01, 2012 21:46:35
It seems broken again...

I just rolled up a level 5 with +2 Chain.

His AC was 22.
10 + 2 (half level) + 6 (Chain, 5+1) + (2 Enh) = 20.

This char has no shield, no feats, and no powers.

What am i missing?
>.>

What class is he?
#15
TardisMaximus
Apr 02, 2012 0:20:49 Bard.

No race or class options were taken.

Literally, i started a new char, chose bard.
Went right to equip, took +2 chain, added it to his inv, and equipped it.
Voila, 22 ac.

EDIT - i just tried it again, got a 21 AC this time.
Now it seems to be correct, but it's being inconsistant.
:/

EDIT2 - tried again with a fighter, same result (21).

#16
salla
Apr 02, 2012 3:21:57 21 is correct, as the +2 Chain will be masterworked and give a base AC bonus of 7, then 2 for the enhancement bonus, then +2 for the half-level modifier.
#17
khashul
Apr 08, 2012 4:08:56 This caught me and my players out the other day.

Can someone explain why this was changed or was it always this way and just a rule missed by us.

It seems to seriously change the way I've had to design monsters due to the high armour classes of the PC's with magical armour and has caused some balance issues for our characters.
#18
salla
Apr 09, 2012 9:24:58
This caught me and my players out the other day.

Can someone explain why this was changed or was it always this way and just a rule missed by us.

It seems to seriously change the way I've had to design monsters due to the high armour classes of the PC's with magical armour and has caused some balance issues for our characters.

It's always been that way; the PHB just had trouble explaining precisely how masterwork armor functioned.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 silma Mar 06, 2012 7:50:26	Hi everyone. I've been having a problem with the character builder recently. What happens is that magic armors give way more AC than they should. It's like they're adding the enhancement bonus twice or something. It doesn't happen with all armors, but with most. For example, a magil leather armor +6 gives a total of 10 AC instead of 8. But a magic scale armor +6, gives a total of 18 AC instead of 13. Do u have any idea what's up with that? Is it a bug, or some sort or rule I'm missing?
#2 salla Mar 06, 2012 14:50:47	You're missing the Masterwork Armor rule.
#3 silma Mar 06, 2012 17:34:58	Can you please explain? Cuz I can't seem to find it anywhere... I know about the better armors like feyleather (which gives an extra 2 armor bonus to AC for a total of 4) and drakescale etc, but even a simple enchanted magic armor gives more AC than it should (according to what I know so far), in the character builder.
#4 salla Mar 06, 2012 20:11:33	Can you please explain? Cuz I can't seem to find it anywhere... I know about the better armors like feyleather (which gives an extra 2 armor bonus to AC for a total of 4) and drakescale etc, but even a simple enchanted magic armor gives more AC than it should (according to what I know so far), in the character builder. Basically, all armor of sufficient enhancement bonus (varies by armor type) is automatically masterworked. The CB makes the armor masterwork so you don't short yourself AC you should be getting.
#5 RedSiegfried Mar 07, 2012 0:32:36	And to clarify, that is a game rule, not just something the CB does. The tables explaining the armor and enhancement bonuses for particular levels and types of magic armor are in Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms. Unfortunately, you won't find those tables published anywhere else but the CB does calculate them correctly in all cases whether its a specific masterwork armor type or just any other kind of magic armor.
#6 silma Mar 07, 2012 2:49:33	ah, I see... that is just great cuz AC always seemed a bit lower than other defenses. Well, thanks a lot guys!!!
#7 _Mithreinmaethor_ Mar 07, 2012 13:14:37	This is why purchasing the books and reading them will always trump trying to just let the Compendium be your only rules reference.
#8 mhblis1 Mar 07, 2012 14:29:16	I actually had the opposite problem with Eldarin Chain armor it was only giving me the enhancment bonus and not the base +6 of chain mail
#9 silma Mar 07, 2012 16:42:29	This is why purchasing the books and reading them will always trump trying to just let the Compendium be your only rules reference. well i have phb 1 and 2 dmg and mm1, but I really can't afford all those other books. Dnd insider was the only way to have access to other books, so I kinda sticked with that.
#10 RedSiegfried Mar 08, 2012 11:48:10	They REALLY should publish those armor tables somewhere other than the Essentials books. For such a major change to the way armor works, they should have at least published them in an update or errata document. The OP's question is such a common question - just about everyone who uses CB gets confused by it at one time or another and if they don't own one of those two Essentials books there is simply no explanation for the increased AC.
#11 salla Mar 08, 2012 13:09:20	Last I checked, the rules and table for Masterwork Armor were also in the PHB.
#12 RedSiegfried Mar 09, 2012 13:06:51	Last I checked, the rules and table for Masterwork Armor were also in the PHB. Kinda, but not really. It doesn't cover all the levels/enhancement bonuses and it doesn't specifically state that all armor is masterwork armor because at that point, it wasn't. AV implies/states that, however. But regardless, those sources are out of date since Essentials where masterwork armor apparently no longer exists* and instead of having masterwork armor, all magic armors have an armor bonus equivalent to the way (most) masterwork armors worked in the older books. AFAIK, post-Essentials, the word "masterwork" doesn't appear anywhere in any rules source. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Since this question comes up all the time from many people, it's obviously not clear enough to most people. Armor bonuses of magic armor has been handled poorly since day one and with Essentials it's been mostly cleared up. Problem is that the tables that clarify this are not available unless you purchase one of the "Heroes Of" books. * Masterwork armor, as a distinct mechanical concept, no longer exists. It's basically fluff now. You can still find specific masterwork armor types from AV in the CB which do not adhere to the tables from the Essentials books and everyone still uses them, but CB is not a rules source. For example, in HoTFL it says that +2 plate has an armor bonus of +9 but in AV there is one +2 plate that has an armor bonus of +8 and resist 1 all instead. So there are exceptions.
#13 TardisMaximus Apr 01, 2012 17:41:19	It seems broken again... I just rolled up a level 5 with +2 Chain. His AC was 22. 10 + 2 (half level) + 6 (Chain, 5+1) + (2 Enh) = 20. This char has no shield, no feats, and no powers. What am i missing? >.>
#14 salla Apr 01, 2012 21:46:35	It seems broken again... I just rolled up a level 5 with +2 Chain. His AC was 22. 10 + 2 (half level) + 6 (Chain, 5+1) + (2 Enh) = 20. This char has no shield, no feats, and no powers. What am i missing? >.> What class is he?
#15 TardisMaximus Apr 02, 2012 0:20:49	Bard. No race or class options were taken. Literally, i started a new char, chose bard. Went right to equip, took +2 chain, added it to his inv, and equipped it. Voila, 22 ac. EDIT - i just tried it again, got a 21 AC this time. Now it seems to be correct, but it's being inconsistant. :/ EDIT2 - tried again with a fighter, same result (21).
#16 salla Apr 02, 2012 3:21:57	21 is correct, as the +2 Chain will be masterworked and give a base AC bonus of 7, then 2 for the enhancement bonus, then +2 for the half-level modifier.
#17 khashul Apr 08, 2012 4:08:56	This caught me and my players out the other day. Can someone explain why this was changed or was it always this way and just a rule missed by us. It seems to seriously change the way I've had to design monsters due to the high armour classes of the PC's with magical armour and has caused some balance issues for our characters.
#18 salla Apr 09, 2012 9:24:58	This caught me and my players out the other day. Can someone explain why this was changed or was it always this way and just a rule missed by us. It seems to seriously change the way I've had to design monsters due to the high armour classes of the PC's with magical armour and has caused some balance issues for our characters. It's always been that way; the PHB just had trouble explaining precisely how masterwork armor functioned.