Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dnddan Jul 29, 2008 12:03:41	So, I just want to make sure I understand. In the 2 months since 4E has been released, there are about 8-10 excel spreadsheets, countless editable PDFs (some with auto populating / auto calculating fields), and at lest one stand alone program that can be used to create 4E characters. These have been done by hobby programmers and professional programmers in their spare time. Yet... You have been unable to create what is, basically, a front end to a database, to a point where it can be beta tested. Something a programming student does as a semester project. Here are my assumptions (and please correct me if I'm wrong): - least one dedicated professional coder per DDi application - one QA person (not necessarily a dedicated QA person) - everyone working 40 hours per week (likely more, if my experience is typical) - you are using a widely supported language (Delphi, Java, C#, etc.) - most (all) of the information is in some kind of database If the above is true, you should have SOMETHING available after a month of programming. If the character visualizer is what's holding you up, use a static image on the character sheet for now. We can wait for that part. Please, if any of the above is unreasonable or there is something I have missed, please let us know.
#2 koushiro Jul 29, 2008 12:31:51	There are a lot of us who don't think this whole D&D Insider thing is going to happen. We remember the CD we got with our 3rd edition handbook that had a cute little character generator in it. Worked nicely and was pretty slick, but none of the other options in it worked. Then it got handed off to some other company. And then they didn't really do anything with it. Then 3.5 came out and we didn't care. There is not a good track record here. Even the D&D core rules from 2nd edition had some wonkyness.
#3 khayin Jul 29, 2008 13:41:24	I can not speak for the developers, but I believe the biggest hang-up with this whole suite of applications is the simple fact that they are a unified suite. It's one thing to say you're going to make a character creator -- it's quite another to say that you're going to make a character creator that interacts with a rules database and a virtual tabletop. My guess is that the basic framework exists already, but they're still in the process of getting it to work with everything else properly. As with most things, my guess is that the unfinished VTT is the primary culprit in the mystery of the unmet deadlines. As for beta testing -- that's a tricky subject. If you did not initially plan to have software beta tested publicly, it's not just as easy as changing your mind and dumping your current build out onto a server. Apart from the legal hashing that needs to be done with the publisher, the software needs a certain amount of "clean-up" before you can throw it to the wolves to make sure there isn't anything that could be problematic in a legal or functional sense.
#4 Gimric Jul 29, 2008 13:52:37	There are a lot of us who don't think this whole D&D Insider thing is going to happen. We remember the CD we got with our 3rd edition handbook that had a cute little character generator in it. Worked nicely and was pretty slick, but none of the other options in it worked. Then it got handed off to some other company. And then they didn't really do anything with it. Then 3.5 came out and we didn't care. There is not a good track record here. Even the D&D core rules from 2nd edition had some wonkyness. That may be true but I never really had any problems with the 2nd Ed Core Rules/CR2 programs. Did I use all of it? Not to its full capacity. But it worked. Now Code Monkey did a great job salvaging a program that quite frankly was hampered by corporate politics. Was the final product all it could have or should have been? No. But they did what they could do within the contract.
#5 darkangel1979 Jul 29, 2008 14:34:37	I'd like to mention that most of those spreadsheets and stuff have bugs and calculate only the most trivial derived values (like Defenses), leaving most of it to be filled by hand. From what I understand the Character Creator will automatically calculate everything based on Race, Class, Power and Feat choices, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they already had something with the current level of functionality as those spreadsheets. But why would they released something half-assed like that? Contrary to the makers of those character sheets, they don't have the excuse of being amateurs. If they were to release something like that they'd get more complaints than by waiting.
#6 rcuhljr Jul 29, 2008 14:58:13	I'd like to mention that most of those spreadsheets and stuff have bugs and calculate only the most trivial derived values (like Defenses), leaving most of it to be filled by hand. Erm.. I've only tried 3-4 but everyone I found did full calculations for any base race and anything in the monster manuals, and two of them supported items/equipment affecting armor/skills/etc. As for bugs, msot are due to the limitations of the enviroment it was made in, JS/excel/etc which doesn't really hold for a custom project. And these projects where created by single people in SPARE time. not full time employees. I wouldn't be surprised if they already had something with the current level of functionality as those spreadsheets. I would be ashamed, since they've had months and months of lead time to develop this before release.
#7 Grazel Jul 29, 2008 16:54:54	Okay just because there's no public beta doesn't mean there's no working version. At the Game Day Event (June 7th) they had a working version people could use. It wasn't complete but it was usable and had a lot of working features. Things that were mentioned as still being in the works: - the ability to make something in the visualizer and put it as a character portrait or add your own art/image instead. - the ability to zoom in and out on the character sheet - the ability to collapse, hide, and move the 'blocks' of data around so you could choose a layout that you like - the ability to select how many and which powers/weapons to get the attack and damage workspace info on. Also yes it needs to work with a database in some manner. Even the Excel sheets need to (I've made my own) and trust me the calculations can get tricky when you're dealing with what options to make availaible. The builder as I saw it almost 2 months ago didn't just give you a long list of feats to pick, it only showed the ones you met the requirements for. It also tests your character for 'legal' status (RPGA standards) which will be used for the virtual tabletop so DMs can choose whether to allow 'houseruled' characters in or not (with a possibly addition of setting up a 'houserule' set and allow that set to be included). On top of just the rules issues, especially when dealing with prerequisites and scalability for adding content later (like later sourcebooks, Dragon, houserules) they also have to deal with UI coding for functionality that most of the existing products out there don't have (the zooming, print layouts, moving blocks around easily). Also the character creator is in two components: the builder where you make your decisions on the character including levelling up and the character sheet which allows you to view/print your character in a format that resembles the character sheet in the book. I'm not sure if the visualizer is considered a component of the creator or not as it ran as a seperate tool at the Game Day and at least at that time they didn't interact and were seperate applications.
#8 Dralenan Jul 29, 2008 17:15:40	As much as integration might be an issue, had I been in the project, I would have focused on making the chargen stable on its own, writing in whatever extensions would be necessary to make it work with the other tools. It isn't hard to get a character generator going, leaving room in the files for customization. I'm almost sure people would be happier if just the character gen were released with stand-alone function that would then be able to be applied into Character Vis and Game Table. In such case, I would pour extra time and resources into making that one program run, at the expense of the others.
#9 Grazel Jul 29, 2008 19:10:50	Well I suspect we'll see it before teh table and dungeon builder. Possibly even before the visualizer. I got the impression that it wasn't the hooks for working with the other components that was the hold up but the finer details about the UI and making sure that all the logic was working right. Remember that this tool is going to probably be the most used of all the tools so they want to make sure it's working and looking good when it comes out.
#10 ghostintheshell Jul 29, 2008 21:46:28	Actually you will see the visualizer first...The reason you ask? Well there is no working trial version of the tabletop. If you haven't noticed WOTC keeps defending the DDI fiasco with the knowledge that they have played with the Visualizer and that it just needs more time to get out the bugs. If you have also noticed that not one employee has defended DDI with the knowledge that they have played around with the virtual table top and it just needs more time to get the bugs out. Sometimes what is said isn't as good as the information not said.
#11 guivre Jul 29, 2008 22:32:19	As much as integration might be an issue, had I been in the project, I would have focused on making the chargen stable on its own, writing in whatever extensions would be necessary to make it work with the other tools. It isn't hard to get a character generator going, leaving room in the files for customization. I'm almost sure people would be happier if just the character gen were released with stand-alone function that would then be able to be applied into Character Vis and Game Table. In such case, I would pour extra time and resources into making that one program run, at the expense of the others. Integration shouldn't be an issue at this point. They've been working on this long enough to have nailed down the interfaces between components fairly well. However we're also dealing with a company that couldn't produce what is essentially a wiki of the rules on time, so my hopes aren't very high.
#12 WolfStar76 Jul 30, 2008 9:44:28	Actually you will see the visualizer first...The reason you ask? Well there is no working trial version of the tabletop. If you haven't noticed WOTC keeps defending the DDI fiasco with the knowledge that they have played with the Visualizer and that it just needs more time to get out the bugs. If you have also noticed that not one employee has defended DDI with the knowledge that they have played around with the virtual table top and it just needs more time to get the bugs out. Sometimes what is said isn't as good as the information not said. You seem to be implying that the Game Table is (more or less) completely non-existant. If I'm mis-reading you, my apologies (lack of sleep, a cold, and limited forum time this week mean I'm not thinking as clearly or as well versed on these threads as usual). That said, however, I've seen a live version of the Game Table in use at DDXP back in Feb/Mar of this year (2008). There may be a lot of work and debugging and whatnot to be done, and the build I saw was a "pre-alpha" but they were demoing it fairly heavily at DDXP, and WotC_DM answered many of my questions himself about the game table quite unabashedly. So, while they may not be as far along on the Game Table (which isn't *that* surprising considering the larger amount of "work" the program has to do vs a visualizer or generator) it's still something that's been shown to the public at large.
#13 corpsman Jul 30, 2008 10:34:53	That may be true but I never really had any problems with the 2nd Ed Core Rules/CR2 programs. Did I use all of it? Not to its full capacity. But it worked. Now Code Monkey did a great job salvaging a program that quite frankly was hampered by corporate politics. Was the final product all it could have or should have been? No. But they did what they could do within the contract. I dont know how many times I have to repeate this.. Core rules was a TSR product before WOTC was involved. After TSR was bought by WotC, all they did was add an upgrade to core rules.. everything that was core rules was already intact, they just modified it. Stop using core rules as a success for WotC/Hasbro
#14 Kentinal Jul 30, 2008 10:51:46	I dont know how many times I have to repeate this.. Core rules was a TSR product before WOTC was involved. After TSR was bought by WotC, all they did was add an upgrade to core rules.. everything that was core rules was already intact, they just modified it. Stop using core rules as a success for WotC/Hasbro If I recall correctly, the vendor proposed CR II and was permitted to proceed with the project. All WotC had to do with that was giving permission to proceed.
#15 wotc_dm Jul 30, 2008 12:24:44	Actually you will see the visualizer first...The reason you ask? Well there is no working trial version of the tabletop. If you haven't noticed WOTC keeps defending the DDI fiasco with the knowledge that they have played with the Visualizer and that it just needs more time to get out the bugs. If you have also noticed that not one employee has defended DDI with the knowledge that they have played around with the virtual table top and it just needs more time to get the bugs out. Sometimes what is said isn't as good as the information not said. This is certainly true that the visualizer is more advanced than the D&D Game Table. As I mentioned in other threads already, this is a less complex application in term of coding (but more complex in term of 3D art), and it does not have a client/server component. We have had usability tests done 3 weeks ago with the D&D game Table, so the number fo people starting to use internally will grow in the next weeks, but this usage depends on more complex infrastructure pieces. We are working on those.
#16 KM.549 Jul 30, 2008 16:58:32	We have had usability tests done 3 weeks ago with the D&D game Table, so the number fo people starting to use internally will grow in the next weeks, but this usage depends on more complex infrastructure pieces. We are working on those. That is good to know. This is also the type of info you REALLY need to make public. That you are working on someting. When you say nothing it makes the public think nothing is being done.
#17 rhianni32 Jul 30, 2008 19:37:49	We have had usability tests done 3 weeks ago with the D&D game Table, so the number fo people starting to use internally will grow in the next weeks, but this usage depends on more complex infrastructure pieces. We are working on those. Please talk with Gamer Zero and have him stop asking us if we want information and if we want it formatted in a specific way. Show him your post and say "What I did right here? This is what the community wants."
#18 kursk Jul 30, 2008 20:03:00	Something a programming student does as a semester project. A whole semester? God, schools have gone into the crapper.
#19 koushiro Jul 30, 2008 23:12:37	I've got a better question? Why on earth are they getting into that business at all? We've got ways to play games online already that are free, and honestly a lot of us play D&D to get away from our computers and the online world to hang out with people in person. The game isn't that hard, we don't really need a character generator with what we've got now. It's nice to have but people have already said that there are already things out there to do it with. Heck, there's a 4e version of hero forge in the works if it can even exist in the new license.
#20 Ore Jul 31, 2008 9:17:13	Um, it's great you feel that way but doesn't contribute anything to the issue. A lot of us want this product for various reasons. You may not understand those reasons but that does not diminish them. :P Personally, after reading how Living Forgotten Realms was going to be handled (with WOTC folks on hand to help you create your character real quick) I was hoping they would have the Character Generator on hand for that event. Using it to get the LFR games rolling as well as to showcase it to the crowd is a great idea. But then again, I am lacking in faith at the moment. So we shall see.
#21 hellmute Aug 02, 2008 22:35:52	This is certainly true that the visualizer is more advanced than the D&D Game Table. As I mentioned in other threads already, this is a less complex application in term of coding (but more complex in term of 3D art), and it does not have a client/server component. We have had usability tests done 3 weeks ago with the D&D game Table, so the number fo people starting to use internally will grow in the next weeks, but this usage depends on more complex infrastructure pieces. We are working on those. Does this mean visualizer will be a one time download not requiring connection to WotC servers, or that it can ONLY be done by connecting to WotC servers? So that people wanting to play with making minis and having a static image can do so without subscriptions?
#22 thudar Aug 02, 2008 22:43:38	I can't wait for the game table. I work a lot of long hours the only dependable time I could game would be 10pm central. Not going to happen. But with the game table I could get into a regular pacific coast campaign.
#23 Kentinal Aug 03, 2008 13:37:44	Does this mean visualizer will be a one time download not requiring connection to WotC servers, or that it can ONLY be done by connecting to WotC servers? So that people wanting to play with making minis and having a static image can do so without subscriptions? As best I sense about this, is yes the visualizer will be a download and somewhat usable. What has also been indicated is one needs to be connected in order to level up a character. If my understanding is correct, in effect you can down load crippleware that is only fully functional when connected online.
#24 mead Aug 03, 2008 17:15:42	So the first product they intend to release is the one product that is completely useless except in conjunction with either of two other products that ... aren't released yet. Is it okay if I don't get excited?
#25 Grazel Aug 04, 2008 17:34:05	Actually my understanding is the character builder will let you save characters locally, and view/print character sheets. This will be useful even without the other tools since you can save/level/print your character using hte character builder for use in your tabletop/offline games as well as playing online. The visualizer is about more than just making v-mini's. It allows you to make portraits as well (supposedly to put in the character sheet or just store seperately).
#26 wotc_dm Aug 05, 2008 23:38:02	Does this mean visualizer will be a one time download not requiring connection to WotC servers, or that it can ONLY be done by connecting to WotC servers? So that people wanting to play with making minis and having a static image can do so without subscriptions? The visualizer will be a one time download, that will be then have updates when we release new content. The full usage and options of the application, including updates, will only be available if the user is a subscriber and online while using it. When used offline, the functionalities will be limited. They will include for example, being able to load a character that has been done previously, to take a screenshot, and do some limited changes for example.
#27 hellmute Aug 06, 2008 2:39:12	The visualizer will be a one time download, that will be then have updates when we release new content. The full usage and options of the application, including updates, will only be available if the user is a subscriber and online while using it. When used offline, the functionalities will be limited. They will include for example, being able to load a character that has been done previously, to take a screenshot, and do some limited changes for example. I don't mind not having saved renderings from past usings of the software, but would hope that you could take a screenshot without being a subscriber or it really is a useless tool for non-subscribers. That is the only real thing that interests me for the how game table and visualize being unable to draw a straight line to save my life, having the ability to create a character portrait. This was a major advantage over any MMO if a non-subscriber could do this without being logged into some server to render the model just to take a screenshot using print screen or some other screen capture method, or just saving a static image from the interface itself. I just hope these pain killers made me read this wrong and non-subscribers will at least be able to take pictures with this and the dungeon builder without being connected so that machines not connected to the internet constantly can use these unupdated. I will try rereading this tomorrow to make sure I read it correctly.
#28 Elendur Aug 06, 2008 11:17:28	I think WotC's in a real bind, because they want to charge a subscription for these products, but none of them are worth it individually. A character visualizer is neat, but very few people are going to pay for it, as it's a very optional component to game play. It's the whole suite of applications and how they interoperate that make it a compelling product, and that integration is very very hard. And the longer things are out there as free, the harder it will be to charge for them. The magazines are have been out for 3 months for free, you don't think people are going to complain when they get taken away?
#29 Grazel Aug 06, 2008 16:56:55	I don't mind not having saved renderings from past usings of the software, but would hope that you could take a screenshot without being a subscriber or it really is a useless tool for non-subscribers. That is the only real thing that interests me for the how game table and visualize being unable to draw a straight line to save my life, having the ability to create a character portrait. This was a major advantage over any MMO if a non-subscriber could do this without being logged into some server to render the model just to take a screenshot using print screen or some other screen capture method, or just saving a static image from the interface itself. I just hope these pain killers made me read this wrong and non-subscribers will at least be able to take pictures with this and the dungeon builder without being connected so that machines not connected to the internet constantly can use these unupdated. I will try rereading this tomorrow to make sure I read it correctly. I'm pretty sure he meant that when offline (or non-subscriber) you can load a character, take a screenshot, and make some changes. What a subscriber would get is more options, the ability to create a v-mini for use on the game table, and maybe share the character with other players. All those things make sense that htey'd at least require an online connection and subscription.
#30 hellmute Aug 07, 2008 4:00:21	I'm pretty sure he meant that when offline (or non-subscriber) you can load a character, take a screenshot, and make some changes. What a subscriber would get is more options, the ability to create a v-mini for use on the game table, and maybe share the character with other players. All those things make sense that htey'd at least require an online connection and subscription. With the recent things being said about DDI elsewhere by people like Randy and such it is hard to know what is what. I trust Diedre (sp) and the information, but things are getting a bit more confused now that it seems things have changed and only half the information is being given about what DDI will be now. I wish they execs would quit playing games and give the truth. DDI is THIS and costs THIS. No hidden information and all this other crap that confuses us when WotC_DM does give us a straight answer that seems to contradict the hidden agenda in the execs information... Making a character portrait would be my only personal use for it also....
#31 thax Aug 07, 2008 11:35:41	As far as intergration is concerned.... I doubt the Visualizer will use anything from the Creater, DM tools or such. It is simply a graphics program that looks pretty. That is what I am getting from what has been said thus far. The Table is not using any rules as far as I know. You may be able to pull a stat card from somewhere, but that is for information, not actual working stats that runs a tally or is related to the Gaming Table itself. That is what I am getting from what has been said before. Also, some of the difficulty is from, I suspect, the want to keep these applications to an Online Only aspect instead of having Offline Use. Has it been confirmed that the Creator will allow a character to be save locally (to one's own computer) or if we have to use the "character Vault" exclusively? Any word on the replacement for E-Tools yet?
#32 WolfStar76 Aug 07, 2008 15:35:21	WotC_DM (I think) posted months ago (long enough that I'm having a hard time finding it) that yes, you will be able to save characters locally or to your online vault. In fact, with the cancellation of gleemax I'd be more concerned that the vault may not happen at this point, since that was supposed to be part of/tied to gleemax.