Such as the Character Visualizer?
And the others?
Well, where are they?
Can we get an update?
Anyways, there are no tools beyond the Character Builder and the Beta of a Monster Builder. This really is a dark time for DDI between the 2 year aniversary of 4e (sans DDI) and all the recent delays.
There is no news on any plans for a Character Visualizer at all. Sorry to say.
December of '08, like, everyone involved gets fired, and after that, nothing.
I don't think we'll ever know what happened there. Was it all smoke and mirrors? Was the character visualizer actually years from completion, and when wizards found out it could only actually model tiefling clerics, they axed everyone? Was it just not polished enough?
It's probably safe to say that, whatever that thing was at the time (and the mythical gaming table screenshots too), it was unusable. There's a reason they started work on the character builder and every other tool under the sun instead of finishing it. Who knows what state it's in now?
I just recently did a lot of research, and it's funny, because they had working demos at conventions and staff lauding how they were all using the visualizer behind closed doors in their personal games, and then...
December of '08, like, everyone involved gets fired, and after that, nothing.
I don't think we'll ever know what happened there. Was it all smoke and mirrors? Was the character visualizer actually years from completion, and when wizards found out it could only actually model tiefling clerics, they axed everyone? Was it just not polished enough?
It's probably safe to say that, whatever that thing was at the time (and the mythical gaming table screenshots too), it was unusable. There's a reason they started work on the character builder and every other tool under the sun instead of finishing it. Who knows what state it's in now?
Well, the Table and the visualizer were being built by an outside vendor, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, and they went out of business. The plan at WoTC was to have them develope it, and then take it inhouse to make updates and upgrades.
NOW, what I'm going to say is just my thoughts. Maybe what they were using in house was a very stripped down version.
What we saw in the videos seemed pretty basic to me. It seemed like it lacked many features that I would want. And there is a difference between working, and ready for sale. For example, the materials I am currently working on, we don't do any tweaking and cleaning and making sure it's all pretty till the end. Because there is no point in doing all that, while the material is still changing.
And we have no idea, and never will, just what went on between WoTC and the company that was doing the software. Was the software company pulling the wool over WoTC's eyes in terms of what they were able to do? I've certainly worked with vendors that present a good face, all the while things are really chaos in the background.
So maybe what WoTC finally got from the vendor, was in such state, that it would have required a lot of work just to understand how it was put together, which is probably unlikely. If the plan was to take it over, they would follow how it was built along the way, to make that transition easier.
But I do know, it's never easy to take someone else's unfinished work and try and figure out what exactly still needs to be done.
And yes, we will never know. Companies just don't talk about that stuff.
Someone on these threads had posted a history of what happened. It seemed like they had access to people working on it. But I have no idea where that thread is and I'm too busy/lazy to search for it. But I believe it came down to developers biting off more than they could chew and not being up front about the delays they were experiencing.
I believe the company making it was Radiant Machine. Not a whole lot about them online except they make a CMS system now that my company is starting to use on some sites.
Someone on these threads had posted a history of what happened. It seemed like they had access to people working on it. But I have no idea where that thread is and I'm too busy/lazy to search for it. But I believe it came down to developers biting off more than they could chew and not being up front about the delays they were experiencing.
Sounds about right to me.
I've been there too, where a developer says yes regardless of the reality of being able to do the work.
I just recently did a lot of research, and it's funny, because they had working demos at conventions and staff lauding how they were all using the visualizer behind closed doors in their personal games, and then...
December of '08, like, everyone involved gets fired, and after that, nothing.
I don't think we'll ever know what happened there. Was it all smoke and mirrors? Was the character visualizer actually years from completion, and when wizards found out it could only actually model tiefling clerics, they axed everyone? Was it just not polished enough?
It's probably safe to say that, whatever that thing was at the time (and the mythical gaming table screenshots too), it was unusable. There's a reason they started work on the character builder and every other tool under the sun instead of finishing it. Who knows what state it's in now?
Ok, now this got the juices flowing; we know that WotC simply will not answer certain questions, but maybe there are questions we can ask that will give us some answers. Are WotC employees still using the Visualizer the way they described in those past articles? Mudbunny, I Summon Thee!
(Past Article Example)
Overpromise, Underdeliver at it's finest.
Unfortunate. And a big let down from WotC.
Overpromise, Underdeliver at it's finest.
You know what. I agree with what you've said.
But, is it the end of the earth? Did it make DnD unplayable?
Sure, those that wanted to play with friends across the country, it sucked the hardest. But there are options.
So while it is what you say, since the world didn't end, I can live.
Ok, now this got the juices flowing; we know that WotC simply will not answer certain questions, but maybe there are questions we can ask that will give us some answers. Are WotC employees still using the Visualizer the way they described in those past articles? Mudbunny, I Summon Thee!
(Past Article Example)
I will ask. I guarantee nothing, (not even a response), but I will ask.
Bummer for me is that the CV is the only outstanding tool now that I really want, and as we've seen, it looked reasonably cool in the demo'd form. Yep, big bummer.
It may have had potential. I fiddled around with it when they had the usable demo at Gencon '08 when LFR debuted and it was rather unimpressive. It was good for it's ultimate intended purpose (the visual was to be used as your 3-D mini on the VTT) but on it's own it was simplistic in its visuals and lacked the variety one would need to truly satisfy folks.
That's just my opinion, of course.
No, the problem is people dwelling on a mistake that was made in the past, a mistake that was not 100% Wizards' direct responsibility, but a mistake that they have admitted to and apologized for in the past. This does not admonish their place in this, but the VTT is not going to be released. Time to get over it.
Get over it so WOTC can mislead and lie to the customers again about something else when they want to? I don't think so. WOTC screwed up big time and when the time came for them to man up, they did'nt. People need to keep reminding WOTC what they did was wrong and we will never forget. They did it to us with Etools/ Master tools. They did the same thing with 4th ed computer tools. It will be a cold day in hell before I let WOTC mislead me again.
Which I, and a number of other customers, think is lacking.
Seems the D&DI subscription costs keep rising, but the value stays the same. (or in my case drops... Long story short, CB may or may not work if you have bootcamp, and WOTC doesn't care if it won't.)
The OP has a point, where is the value? What am I paying for? The CB, the compendium, the magazine articles? Where is my money going? I don't pay this much for any other magazine I've ever subscribed to, why should I pay so much for this magazine?
I shouldn't.
Maybe next year I won't...
Until WOTC offers more extensive services for the price, it's hard to justify the purchase. Especially when the customer service provided is lacking so heavily.
Get over it so WOTC can mislead and lie to the customers again about something else when they want to? I don't think so. WOTC screwed up big time and when the time came for them to man up, they did'nt. People need to keep reminding WOTC what they did was wrong and we will never forget. They did it to us with Etools/ Master tools. They did the same thing with 4th ed computer tools. It will be a cold day in hell before I let WOTC mislead me again.
There. You have something in common with Wizards, because I am sure it will be a cold day in hell that Wizards gets bent over the barrel again, left holding the bag. Just like Etools. Just like VTT.
And you wonder why they are so cautious to announce anything moving forward. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You think you would have a bit of understanding, but you're too busy being butthurt for the last two years.
Get over it so WOTC can mislead and lie to the customers again about something else when they want to? I don't think so. WOTC screwed up big time and when the time came for them to man up, they did'nt. People need to keep reminding WOTC what they did was wrong and we will never forget. They did it to us with Etools/ Master tools. They did the same thing with 4th ed computer tools. It will be a cold day in hell before I let WOTC mislead me again.
A couple of months after the release of 4E, and the lack of any tools beyond Dungeon, Dragon and the Compendium, Scott Rouse said the following:
We've collectively over promised and under delivered, that's not creating good customer experiences and that's not what we need to be doing. We need to be creating great customer experiences. I believe we are on that path with Char Builder, Compendium etc and we'll continue to work on creating more great experiences.
The problem has nothing to do with "people dwelling on a mistake", the problem has to do with customer service.
Which I, and a number of other customers, think is lacking.
Seems the D&DI subscription costs keep rising, but the value stays the same. (or in my case drops... Long story short, CB may or may not work if you have bootcamp, and WOTC doesn't care if it won't.)
Saying that WotC "doesn't care if it won't" is rather disingenuous. When WotC started work on the various tools, they made the decision, beased on the situation at the time, to focus on the largest market, which was windows using the .NET 3.5 SP1 framework. In all of the material about it, they make that very clear in the system requirements.
The problem isn't that there were problems the problem is that its 2 years later and things they said were going to be here to years ago are STILL not here.
That is only if you ignore the part where they said, several months after the failure to release all of the tools on the scheduled date (as well as the numerous times that it has been said in this forum by any number of people), that they would be changing production methods and would be working on only one tool at a time.
WotC found themselves in a position where their current business plan wasn't wporking and was sending them down a path where the tolls that they would release under that path would be sub-standard and not what they wanted, so they changed plans so that they would produce quality tools. *Every* business that wants to succeed changes their plans as information comes in on how they are doing with their current plan when it meets reality.
***This is not me saying that people don't have the right to feel angry that WotC didn't release all the tools way back when, because they do.***
However, keep in mind that while there are people who are extremely unhappy with WotC's decision to keep the information close to its chest, there are also people who, while they may not be happy with the decision, nonetheless they understand and accept the decision and business plan that WotC has taken. They see the Character Builder, they see the Monster Builder, and they are confident that the next tool will be equally as awesome.
CB
MB
Compendium
two magazines
Really...
Really...
Not for a single person...
Now if a gaming group split the cost, and the membership between them, that may be more worthwhile.
If WOTC wants to work on one project at a time, that's great! Keep people well informed on that one project. Is it delayed? Ahead? Where's the preview article and picture? WOTC Customers LOVE to talk about up and coming things, just look at all the buzz over essentials...
Silence isn't golden when the consumer has lost confidence.
(Off topic)
To start, the CB ran beautifully on my computer. I am running windows, .NET framework is matching and up to date... Then one day, a year and a quarter into my service, the update crashed my CB.
That was when a complete uninstall/reinstall would cause it to work again. WOTC was nice enough to send me the troubleshooting document when that stopped working. Manual uninstall/reinstall, and it would work.
Eventually even that stopped working.
WOTC said they couldn't do anything, that it may be because I'm running windows in bootcamp, but they don't know. (Could be my firewall/virus protection/etc./etc./etc. Troubleshooting has been done...)
"They've done everything they can." Which leaves me with a product that doesn't work.
It used to work, was updated to the point of partial working, less working, not working.
(Back to the topic)
A couple of months after the release of 4E, and the lack of any tools beyond Dungeon, Dragon and the Compendium, Scott Rouse said the following.
That is only if you ignore the part where they said, several months after the failure to release all of the tools on the scheduled date (as well as the numerous times that it has been said in this forum by any number of people)
Yes thats my point. MONTHS AFTER. Yes WOTC put the info out there before the realse. But that bit of info got buried for most people. I was not the only one that could not find the info. So because of the info being hard to find, there was wide spread speculation on what was going on.
WOTC should not have waited months before they posted about the tools not being ready. They should have had a WOTC worker post on the same day about it. Thats what I mean by WOTC not able to man up. WOTC let rumor and speculation go on here for TWO MONTHS when they should have been there for the customers the same day 4th ed was out.
WOTC does not know a thing about customer service.
WOTC said they couldn't do anything, that it may be because I'm running windows in bootcamp, but they don't know. (Could be my firewall/virus protection/etc./etc./etc. Troubleshooting has been done...)
Sometimes, you have to draw the line. They built software to run on specific systems. Those operating systems occupy about 90% of the market. To be honest, they did not have to offer you any support whatsoever, from the beginning, because you are in an unsupported environment. They did, however. And they continued until they could not do it anymore.
As a Product Support Lead/QA for a custom software developer, I know exactly what they are going through and when these limits must be drawn.
Here, let me refresh your memory on the system requirements:
A: Character Builder Requirements:
- Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1
- Supported Operating Systems: Windows Vista; Windows XP SP2
- Display: 1024 x 768
Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Service Pack 1 Requirements:
- Supported Operating Systems: Windows Server 2003; Vista; XP
- Processor: 400 MHz Pentium processor or equivalent (Minimum)
- RAM: 96 MB (Minimum); 256 MB (Recommended)
- Hard Disk: Up to 500 MB of available space may be required
- Display: 800 x 600, 256 colors (Minimum); 1024 x 768 high color, 32-bit (Recommended)
Not supported:
- Win 98, Win NT/Server 2000, Mac, Linux, or DOS
So, you can look at it as poor customer support. But the actual story is that you are just upset that it does not work on your Mac with bootcamp.
The fact is, they did try to help when they did not even have to. This is actually GOOD customer support.
This is actually GOOD customer support.
The poster said the CB stopped working on his Mac with bootcamp after a CB update. So something in the update screwed it up. This falls on WOTC. The poster is now upset because he is not getting the servce he is paying for and expects. He knows it was fine before an update, now its not. So he calls WOTC for help and they basically tell him "sorry, thats the way it is, but thanks for giving you our money. We don't care that what we are charging for does not work for you, have a nice day."
Good customer service?
Yes thats my point. MONTHS AFTER. Yes WOTC put the info out there before the realse. But that bit of info got buried for most people. I was not the only one that could not find the info. So because of the info being hard to find, there was wide spread speculation on what was going on.
WOTC should not have waited months before they posted about the tools not being ready. They should have had a WOTC worker post on the same day about it. Thats what I mean by WOTC not able to man up. WOTC let rumor and speculation go on here for TWO MONTHS when they should have been there for the customers the same day 4th ed was out.
WOTC does not know a thing about customer service.
The information was in the same place for everyone. Wizards thought it was more visible, they corrected that down the road. Let's not get into the semantics of what information some people were not able to find on the website what others could find. We've already discussed this ad nauseum.
The fact is, they eventually did make the decision and posted it up for everyone to see. It's been a year and a half since that "fateful" decision, and you are still complaining about it. The bottom line is that it was not fast enough for you. Great, we get that. Again. And again. And again. It's over now. They are moving forward. You really should try to do that, too. You're too worried and busy complaining to even notice the steps they are making.
As for your comment about Wizards not knowing a thing about customer service... That is a complete and utter falsehood. Yes, it can use improvement. Everyone's CS can. But their effort is definitely there. I have a dozen CS issues myself between MtGO and DDI. They have gone above and beyond on at least half of them.
This is actually GOOD customer support.
The poster said the CB stopped working on his Mac with bootcamp after a CB update. So something in the update screwed it up. This falls on WOTC. The poster is now upset because he is not getting the servce he is paying for and expects. He knows it was fine before an update, now its not. So he calls WOTC for help and they basically tell him "sorry, thats the way it is, but thanks for giving you our money. We don't care that what we are charging for does not work for you, have a nice day."
Good customer service?
He is responsible for clicking YES to accept the terms of subscription, knowing full well he is on an unsupported O/S. They didn't have to help him AT ALL. They did. Until they could not any longer.
I think you may have missed this. Let me show you again.
Not supported:
- Win 98, Win NT/Server 2000, Mac, Linux, or DOS
Pay attention.
I think its funny that they decide only to work on one tool but then they won't tell you what that tool is and have no either no clue when it will be complete or such a utter lack of confidence in their own time tables that they won't/can't say.
I just want to know how on earth a company can actual;ly function like this??? There must only be 30k or so people left on the planet that play D&D because there is no way in hell this would ever fly in practically any other industry...
I agree. I, mean there has never, ever been any company that bit off more than they could chew and over-promised and then failed to deliver. There has?
Well, surely there has never, ever been a company that missed deadlines. COmpanies have done that as well?
Well, surely there are no companies that wait until they are ready to release things before they give out information. Hunh?? Companies do that as well.
And BTW, there are currently almost 37k subscribers in the DDI group.
I mean this there may actually be a very very damaging class action lawsuit here for all the people that signed up with the expactation of using those features. Come to think of it I think Im going to do some more research and get the ball rolling. This is disgusting.
Except that no-one has actually paid for the features, *plus* the sign-up page has *always* been very clear just what is available in the DDI subscription.
Yes thats my point. MONTHS AFTER. Yes WOTC put the info out there before the realse. But that bit of info got buried for most people. I was not the only one that could not find the info. So because of the info being hard to find, there was wide spread speculation on what was going on.
WOTC should not have waited months before they posted about the tools not being ready. They should have had a WOTC worker post on the same day about it. Thats what I mean by WOTC not able to man up. WOTC let rumor and speculation go on here for TWO MONTHS when they should have been there for the customers the same day 4th ed was out.
WOTC does not know a thing about customer service.
The post above by Scott Rouse was specifically talking about the failiure of WotC (through Radiant Machine at first, and then their own internal development team) to meat the deadline. However, they had posts up on the site in the weeks leading up to GenCon that the tools would not be available.
Whether they gave the information enough exposure or not is debateable.
The post above by Scott Rouse was specifically talking about the failiure of WotC (through Radiant Machine at first, and then their own internal development team) to meat the deadline. However, they had posts up on the site in the weeks leading up to GenCon that the tools would not be available.
Whether they gave the information enough exposure or not is debateable.
But really not worth debating to the extent that it has been.
Everyone agrees that they could have done a better job. Some people feel more strongly on the subject than others. Great. Let's move forward. All this persistent dredging up of old bones does is foster animosity in the community. Nothing more.
I don't pay this much for any other magazine I've ever subscribed to, why should I pay so much for this magazine?
I shouldn't.
First off, it's magazines (plural). Secondly... I always find this argument amusing. If you never picked up a copy of Dragon or Dungeon before, then it may hold more weight (since you were paying nothign before). The subscription currently stands at $6 a month. Back when it was in print by Paizo, Dragon was $6 and Dungeon was $7 a month. So when you went down to your FLGS and picked up a copy of each you paid $13 a month or $156 a year. Now you're paying $3 each. Less if you count the tools as a portion of that $6/month cost.
A subscription to Dungeon magazine during the 3e days cost you $45 (I managed to find an old issue with a blow-in card still in it
). A discount off the newsstand price for sure, but if you added Dragon in there too... you were back up over the current price.And currently they're doing it without any advertising support. (which is what allows most print magazines to give subscriptions for such a reduced price since they can show subscription numbers to advertisers so they can charge them more for ad space)
Its all a matter of perspective.
Of course if you don't like the content in the magazines, then that's a whole different subject, in which case, if you don't like the content then it has no value for you and is likely not something you would wish to continue.
I think its funny that they decide only to work on one tool but then they won't tell you what that tool is and have no either no clue when it will be complete or such a utter lack of confidence in their own time tables that they won't/can't say.
This is what I find frustrating. Allegedly, they are working on one tool. I don't know what that tool is, so for all the evidence I'm able to see beyond hearsay, they may not even have the staff to work on anything other than keeping their existing tools limping along in the maintenance phase.
It's now been one year since the Monster Builder was unveiled, and it's still incomplete and riddled with bugs, design issues and abysmal performance and memory issues. Thus, the MB doesn't seem to have been their "one" tool, though perhaps it should have been. The CB hasn't seen any significant upgrades beyond the monthly content updates, so that doesn't seem to have been their "one" tool either. They haven't taken any steps to improve the Compendium by filling in the categories of missing information that are repeatedly requested by the community, so the Compendium's not their "one" tool of interest right now either.
So, for the last year, I've been waiting for this one mythical tool that Wizards may be working on. It had better be an incredible tool if it's the reason that they haven't been working on fixing their existing tools and getting those right first.
I'm sorry, but as it stands I can't find much reason to be anything but sceptical at this point. Maybe Wizards will announce a new tool at GenCon next month. Maybe it will be great, and make my life as a DM (or even player?) much easier. On the other hand, look at the state of the Monster Builder a year after GenCon 2009. Can I legitimately hope that this year's new tool will be any better built or better supported without expecting to be let down?
It's now been one year since the Monster Builder was unveiled, and it's still incomplete and riddled with bugs, design issues and abysmal performance and memory issues.
I use the Monster Builder for every encounter.
Can list all these issues you are having? I want to know what I should be on the look out for. So far I haven't had any problems.
Have you reported all these too?
The most significant issue is that, after using it for an houror two making a handful of custom monsters, it gets reaaaaalllly slow... possibly because it's using up more than a GB of RAM. This isn't unique to me. I haven't seen it discussed much online, but every I know in person that uses the CB experiences it too. If you keep on using it despite this (which is hard, because it gets so slow you've got almost no choice but to close and reload it), it will eventually crash to desktop.
Most have been reported, I think.
The most significant issue is that, after using it for an houror two making a handful of custom monsters, it gets reaaaaalllly slow... possibly because it's using up more than a GB of RAM. This isn't unique to me. I haven't seen it discussed much online, but every I know in person that uses the CB experiences it too. If you keep on using it despite this (which is hard, because it gets so slow you've got almost no choice but to close and reload it), it will eventually crash to desktop.
Hmm, I've had it open for hours on end and never had that issue.
Hmm, I've had it open for hours on end and never had that issue.
Really? I have. With the CB most often. Several people in my group don't own printers and so every so often I have to run the CB for a long while to get everyone's sheets sorted...
...and on almost every occasion I experience a significant system slow-down.
Hmm, I've had it open for hours on end and never had that issue.
Really? I have. With the CB most often. Several people in my group don't own printers and so every so often I have to run the CB for a long while to get everyone's sheets sorted...
...and on almost every occasion I experience a significant system slow-down.
I don't doubt you have. I've also had the CB open for hours, because all the characters are kept on my computer.
I just want to know how on earth a company can actual;ly function like this??? There must only be 30k or so people left on the planet that play D&D because there is no way in hell this would ever fly in practically any other industry...
I agree. I, mean there has never, ever been any company that bit off more than they could chew and over-promised and then failed to deliver. There has?
Well, surely there has never, ever been a company that missed deadlines. COmpanies have done that as well?
Well, surely there are no companies that wait until they are ready to release things before they give out information. Hunh?? Companies do that as well.
And BTW, there are currently almost 37k subscribers in the DDI group.I mean this there may actually be a very very damaging class action lawsuit here for all the people that signed up with the expactation of using those features. Come to think of it I think Im going to do some more research and get the ball rolling. This is disgusting.
Except that no-one has actually paid for the features, *plus* the sign-up page has *always* been very clear just what is available in the DDI subscription.
Correct because clearly multi-national brands like DnD should indeed sell us on subscriptions much the same way used car salesmen opperate. There is no single disclaimer that the content promised in the Dungeons and Dragons 4e subscription isnt there.. In the real world wildly recognized branded companies get sued for this. Its why for the most part this doesnt happen. The character builder could have indeed have been the character visualizer at first glance. If you dont think that this was one of the largest industry gaffs in the history of gaming can you do me a favor and show me another? Most people gaming dont even bother with dnd and the majority that do much like yourself are fan boy loyalists that are blinded by the companies gaffing errors anyways. Which is too bad because making excusing for a poorly run brand is a good way for it to slowly go into chapter 11. You are not helping. How many prior subscribers would actually sign up for a class action lawsuit to get there whole or part of there subscription fee back and force dnd insider to put a disclaimer up on there site?
Correct because clearly multi-national brands like DnD should indeed sell us on subscriptions much the same way used car salesmen opperate. There is no single disclaimer that the content promised in the Dungeons and Dragons 4e subscription isnt there.
O_o
Hunh??
Here is the first subscription page. Note that the page tells you just what you are getting when you subscribe. I fail to see how someone who is subscribing could read that page and think that they were getting something else.
In the real world wildly recognized branded companies get sued for this. Its why for the most part this doesnt happen.
So you are telling me that, in the real world, all companies meet deadlines, deliver exactly what they promised and never make mistakes? Companies have never been burnt by outside contractors, overestimated their (internal) abilities or changed business plans?
The character builder could have indeed have been the character visualizer at first glance.
I fail to see how it could be mistaken for the visualizer. All of the text on the Character Builder page, as well a all the pictures *clearly* show building a character by choosing feats, powers, classes, etc.
If you dont think that this was one of the largest industry gaffs in the history of gaming can you do me a favor and show me another?
Where have I said that WotC has not made a mistake? I have been pretty clear that WotC screwed up when then thought that they could make the release date. I have also said that while I personally think that WotC did a good enough job publicizing the fact that all of the tools would not be out, that it is a very subjective decision, and that others have a legitimate beef with how WotC did it.
I have also been quite consistent in saying that I would like WotC to be more open and communicative with the forums on what they are doing.
Most people gaming dont even bother with dnd
I am pretty sure that if you took all of the companies producing pen and paper RPGs, that the WotC market share would be bigger then all of the others. Combined. WotC is the 800 lb gorilla in the P&P RPG marklet right now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is looking at the market through blinkers.
and the majority that do much like yourself are fan boy loyalists that are blinded by the companies gaffing errors anyways.
You do realize that by usingt he phrase "fan boy loyalists" your are severely reducing the likelihood that your arguments will be taken seriously by anyone.
Which is too bad because making excusing for a poorly run brand is a good way for it to slowly go into chapter 11. You are not helping.
Again, where have I made excuses for WotC's mistakes? I have clearly said that they have made mistakes. I have been pretty clear on how I think they could improve things. However, I also have the ability to look at things from their point of view and can see and understand *why* they are doing things the way they have been for the past couple of years.
How many prior subscribers would actually sign up for a class action lawsuit to get there whole or part of there subscription fee back and force dnd insider to put a disclaimer up on there site?
Could you let me know just how people have been paying for tools that haven't been announced? From the very start, WotC has made it clear that people are paying for the tools that are vailable, not for tools that haven't been out. Now, if they had said that all the tools were available on the subscription page, there might be a point. However, they have never said so. They have always had an indication, of one sort or another, indicating what tools were available and would come with the subscription.
Could you let me know just how people have been paying for tools that haven't been announced? From the very start, WotC has made it clear that people are paying for the tools that are vailable, not for tools that haven't been out. Now, if they had said that all the tools were available on the subscription page, there might be a point. However, they have never said so. They have always had an indication, of one sort or another, indicating what tools were available and would come with the subscription.
As a matter of fact, wasn't DDI free the first few months because they didn't have anything ready for public consumption. They granted access to everything they had for free, including the CB, which I believe was in beta at the time.
In addition, they currently have demos for the Character Builder (allowing you access to PHB 1, PHB 2 info up to level 3) as well as the Compendium (also PHB 1, PHB 2 info up to L3 IIRC).
WotC has done their due diligence in ensuring that people know what they are getting.
Could you let me know just how people have been paying for tools that haven't been announced? From the very start, WotC has made it clear that people are paying for the tools that are vailable, not for tools that haven't been out. Now, if they had said that all the tools were available on the subscription page, there might be a point. However, they have never said so. They have always had an indication, of one sort or another, indicating what tools were available and would come with the subscription.
As a matter of fact, wasn't DDI free the first few months because they didn't have anything ready for public consumption. They granted access to everything they had for free, including the CB, which I believe was in beta at the time.
It was indeed free for the first I think 3-4 months. When they did start charging for DDI, it included the magazines, the online compendium and the Character Builder, and if you got a years subscription, it came to around $4 a month. Which was the low introductory price, which they made clear, would not be offered forever.
When the introductory price was over, 2 months in advance, they said we are ending this, but if you sign up for another year before this DATE, you can get another whole year of DDI at the intro price. That's right, they put in a loop hole on how to keep the lower price, and told us about the loop hole and exactly how long you had to take advantage of this loop hole.
Then they added the Monster Builder for no extra cost.
Correct because clearly multi-national brands like DnD should indeed sell us on subscriptions much the same way used car salesmen opperate. There is no single disclaimer that the content promised in the Dungeons and Dragons 4e subscription isnt there..
Companies that are developing software regularly bite off more than they can chew, and have to rescind those comments later. Microsoft - a company whose name is nearly synonymous with "software" promised a boatload of features in Windows Vista (like a new file system) and didn't deliver.
Did anyone buying Vista get a sticker on the side of the box spelling out the undelivered promises? None of my copies did. (I'm using this as an analogy to illustrate a point, let us not devolve into OS wars here - Linux, Mac, Windows, they all have their place).
Instead, when you go to buy a product, you get a list of what you're paying for. That isn't underhanded, that's the way things simply work.
In the real world wildly recognized branded companies get sued for this. Its why for the most part this doesnt happen.
What companies get sued for is bait and switch. "We're going to give you X, Y, and Z for your money" - then AFTER you've paid they tell you there's no Y or Z. When you purchase a DDI subscription you're told you're getting X and Y. Z isn't currently mentioned anywhere that I'm aware of (save posts/threads like these).
The character builder could have indeed have been the character visualizer at first glance.
I'm not even sure what this means.
If you dont think that this was one of the largest industry gaffs in the history of gaming can you do me a favor and show me another?
Nobody is saying it hasn't been a huge gaffe that I'm aware of - and even if they are, how is it relevant? Making a big mistake doesn't mean you're entitled to something you aren't getting.
It's great that you might WANT something, and want it so bad you can taste it. But that doesn't mean you get to have it because of how big the error was.
Most people gaming dont even bother with dnd and the majority that do much like yourself are fan boy loyalists that are blinded by the companies gaffing errors anyways.
Calling someone names, or lumping them into a category (fanboys) is a convenient way to try and dismiss them - especially if you don't like what they're saying. "Oh, he's just a FANBOY, he doesn't count". I'd encourage you to open your mind a little and consider what's being said - at least, if you want to have a discussion.
If you're just looking to rant, well, please do so elsewhere. I recommend starting a blog with comments disabled. These forums are for discussion.
Despite your claim I keep hearing that active RPGA membership are WAY up - higher than they've ever been, and new D&D books are selling really well. If that's what comes from (to paraphrase) most gamers not bothering - I can only hope I'm so big a failure myself one day.
I haven't followed the sales of the latest supplements, but for a while, many new D&D books were landing on the NYTimes Bestseller's list for nonfiction books. Again, I pray to be so well ignored one day.
Which is too bad because making excusing for a poorly run brand is a good way for it to slowly go into chapter 11.
Cite your source of financial difficulties at WotC? It's entirely possible, I don't have much of a head for stock reports and the like, but despite many people's speculations, I've never seen any hard evidence that the company is failing.
In fact, given the money they're spending on R&D to branch out their games (Gamma World, D&D board games, etc) - I'd say they're doing well.
You are not helping. How many prior subscribers would actually sign up for a class action lawsuit to get there whole or part of there subscription fee back and force dnd insider to put a disclaimer up on there site?
Y'know, for two years at least people have been threatening class action law suits - and a couple posters have even sounded legitimately serious about contacting an attorney to try and start one up.
So far, nothing has come of them. I suspect it's because they've been told what we're trying to tell you.
When you paid your money, you were told what you're getting. If you subscribed thinking/hoping there would be more - that's on you. Yes, WotC wanted to give us more. Yes, WotC made mistakes. Yes, we all still want the rest of the toys (as an online gamer, I want the Game Table myself). No, you don't (likely - I am not a lawyer) have a case however, if you weren't told that your subscription includes things that weren't delivered.
It sucks. We're all disappointed to some degree that we didn't get the whole works. I've talked to WotC people, including some of the programming staff. They're at *least* as disappointed that it didn't launch as we are.
But they don't *owe* us anything we didn't pay for. Them's just the breaks.
Let's not forget to factor in that the CB makes creating and managing characters a 10 minute process as opposed to a 2 hour one. The monster builder is a bit clumsy, but it also acts as a quick way to make custom monsters using the entirety of the D&D publications.
I think that the current D&DI subscription gives plenty of content worth the subscription fee. I would be MORE pleased if WotC sent out some first-party APIs for accessing this content more concisely for use in third party programs. The community is obviously foaming at the mouth trying to build D&DI integrated software, let them do it I say... Then hire a boatload of 3D modelers to make token and dungeon tiles for use in said third party software.
I mean I dont know about you but it is the least useful tool out there. It does nothing for the game in the slightest and is totally useless.
Character builder: Provides a way to make characters.
Monster builder: Builds monsters.
VTT: Provides a place to play D&D.
Character visualizer: Makes pretty ugly pictures...
How can this be the popular item?
On the topic of the Character Visualizer, what I dont understand is how such a tool is the flagship for "Stuff we never got!".
I mean I dont know about you but it is the least useful tool out there. It does nothing for the game in the slightest and is totally useless.
Character builder: Provides a way to make characters.
Monster builder: Builds monsters.
VTT: Provides a place to play D&D.
Character visualizer: Makes pretty ugly pictures...
How can this be the popular item?
I can understand people wanting to be able to see thier characters. But other then that, this serves no purpose to move the game forward, or help anyone prepare the game.
It's really to work best with the VTT.
IIRC WOTC said the the Character Viewer was to be used to make your virtual mini of your character in the VTT.
But now if that is the case why are people seeming to be clamoring for the CV over the VTT?
I might be seeing more then is happening but I find it funny that at a few of the comments like: "The CV is what I wanted out of DDI!"
IIRC WOTC said the the Character Viewer was to be used to make your virtual mini of your character in the VTT.
Hence why i said it really works best with the VTT.
Then maybe they SS it and post it on their FB page or webpage or add it to their sigs. Just guessing.
This is not an MMO. This is not EQ2. The best character viewer is when you use your mind's eye.
As a manufacturer of VTT minis, it was good, as an actual "Hey this is what my character looks like!" it was pretty fugly.But what does Wizards see? DDI subscriptions are healthy! All clear!
*pure speculation. for all I know they interview people in seattle all day about virtual tabletops.
*shrug*
This is not an MMO. This is not EQ2. The best character viewer is when you use your mind's eye.
The point was that even if the VTT has no usefulness for crunch people may want to see their characters in a visualizer. The MMO reference was simply to illustrate the point that just because an thing has no function outside of outside of its looks. People still want it and are willing to pay for it. I'm assuming you have art in your house right?
*shrug*
This is not an MMO. This is not EQ2. The best character viewer is when you use your mind's eye.
The point was that even if the VTT has no usefulness for crunch people may want to see their characters in a visualizer. The MMO reference was simply to illustrate the point that just because an thing has no function outside of outside of its looks. People still want it and are willing to pay for it. I'm assuming you have art in your house right?
Actually, I do not have art in my house. I can take pictures of all of my walls if you like.
Not necessary as I believe you one hundred and ten percent. It pretty much explains everything.
Oh, do tell. I just love veiled insults masked by assumption.
It explains why (it seemed to me) you were being obtuse and deliberately missing the point. If you can't see the value of art then you can't see the value of anyones opinion or vision if it doesn't line up exactly with yours.
So my epiphany was that your not actually deliberately missing the point just for the sake of arguing but that you are in fact incapable of understanding why anyone would want something that you don't want and don't value.
All I stated was that "The best character viewer is when you use your mind's eye." This is neither missing the point, discouraging your point, nor is it argumentative. It is merely an obvservation. And I highly doubt that many (including you) would object to that observation.
But you have done well to spin this into an argument. And then to add insults to the mix. You really have made a mountain out of a molehill on this one.
By the way, whether I can see the value of art and whether I wish to furnish my home in art are two completely separate things. You need to stop making assumptions. That is three failed assumptions in as many responses.
Ok, now this got the juices flowing; we know that WotC simply will not answer certain questions, but maybe there are questions we can ask that will give us some answers. Are WotC employees still using the Visualizer the way they described in those past articles? Mudbunny, I Summon Thee!
(Past Article Example)
I will ask. I guarantee nothing, (not even a response), but I will ask.
MB thanks for sending it up, that's all I ever ask of you. However, I've pretty much lost faith in this thread to accomplish anything.
The monster builder has 95% of the customization I want out of the CB. It's definitely clunkier, and has a totally different use; so comparing them doesn't work well. But, it, at least, has some concept of the basic things that need to be modified and added to have a statblock/powerset change work. Stealing this feature is really what the CB needs. My complaint about the MB is that its a little slow when you want to duplicate anything (which everything custom requires).
While there are nice tools out there already for this, I don't understand how they put a game together with round by round changes to so many status effects and bonuses and dont create a great combat/encounter manager for it. MP isnt very good - the DnD4e-something or other is the best one I've tried - and it's very good. Still, I wish WotC would grab a hold of this as the basis for a campaign manager. Start with the encounters, party tracking, add the ability to log history as rounds pass (for later journaling) and we'll talk. The speed of combat is greatly influences by a good tracking system (and I now refuse to use paper).
A campaign, area and encounter/dungeon mapper would be nice. The latter of these could just be the tile sets put together.
Lastly, a virtual table top, token generator system (obviously the next gen of in person DnD) would go a long way. You'd obsolete miniatures (unless buying them also got you the digital token), and need to incorporate either the mapper, or the ability to load a map and overlay a grid to whatever scale you want.
That tabletop, 40-60" diagonal as lcd/plasmas, touchscreen, with a table built around it and perhaps some additional interface options for the DM, combined with the encounter manager, the compendium, a player action manager, and animated/customizable tokens is where we're headed. The MS surface demo showed what can be done today without much help, and it will only get better.
I'm not all that great with coding and such, so I have a lot of trouble using the more open programs like Klooge--I'd love to have a program that I could just load up and see work with the system, and that would get updates that you knew were official because, well, they came from WotC themselves.
Honestly, if what's holding this back is them trying to make it all graphically beautiful and such, I think they're reaching too far...what I really want--and what I'm pretty sure many people would at least be okay with--is a program that gets the mechanics of the game down, not one that displays it all with great graphics and character models and stuff. Hell, I'll use lettered/numbered tokens on a map if you can give me a gaming table that understands the rules.
Frankly--and I'm sure there are those who will disagree on this--even allowing for custom rules isn't that big a deal for me. I'd like it, sure, but if it gets a program that would be a huge help into my game...I'll stick with the rules as written.
EDIT: Irithil, what's this encounter manager you mentioned...the D&D4e something-or-other? It sounds like that might help with handling some things, at least...I guess from your description it handles HP tracking and tracking all those changes the various abilities cause?
I have to agree with those on these forums who are very disappointed in the lack of the character visualizer and gaming table. Those were the things I was most excited about for D&D4, honestly--and mostly the table. The visualizer was a neat thing and looked fun but...a gaming table app built specifically for D&D4 and maintained by the company who made the game system? Yes, please.
I'm not all that great with coding and such, so I have a lot of trouble using the more open programs like Klooge--I'd love to have a program that I could just load up and see work with the system, and that would get updates that you knew were official because, well, they came from WotC themselves.
Honestly, if what's holding this back is them trying to make it all graphically beautiful and such, I think they're reaching too far...what I really want--and what I'm pretty sure many people would at least be okay with--is a program that gets the mechanics of the game down, not one that displays it all with great graphics and character models and stuff. Hell, I'll use lettered/numbered tokens on a map if you can give me a gaming table that understands the rules.
Frankly--and I'm sure there are those who will disagree on this--even allowing for custom rules isn't that big a deal for me. I'd like it, sure, but if it gets a program that would be a huge help into my game...I'll stick with the rules as written.
EDIT: Irithil, what's this encounter manager you mentioned...the D&D4e something-or-other? It sounds like that might help with handling some things, at least...I guess from your description it handles HP tracking and tracking all those changes the various abilities cause?
Whats holding them back is money and resources to complete it.
When companies plan projects like this, what they do is write up a proposal. The head finance people, probably over at Hasbro, go to the bank and say, we would like to borrow money to do the following.
The banks, in general say here you go, a big heap of money.
Part of that proposal lays out how much money they will make (estimates) and when they have to pay the bank back.
If the project fails to materialize in time, or is a flop, the company still has to pay back the banks.
So in this case, WoTC has actually lost the money spent on developing the table and character visualizer, because the company, Radiant Light promised what it couldn't deliver. That doesn't excuse WoTC of any responsibility, after all, it was their choice to go with Radiant Light.
When the economy went under, more then likely WoTC had spent all or over it's budget for the developement of those tools. And then the economy went belly up, and more then likely they were told, no more money, you need to find a way to start making money.
So WoTC sat down and said, we have lost staff, and we are short on money to do this. How can we save this project, because it's vital to making DnD more accessable to a wider audience.
And the choice was most likely to put the two most time consuming and exspensive aspects, the GT and CV on hold, and focus on tools that could be developed the fastest.
I'm speculating based of information we know, and how business in general finance million dollar projects.
I have to agree with those on these forums who are very disappointed in the lack of the character visualizer and gaming table. Those were the things I was most excited about for D&D4, honestly--and mostly the table. The visualizer was a neat thing and looked fun but...a gaming table app built specifically for D&D4 and maintained by the company who made the game system? Yes, please.
I'm not all that great with coding and such, so I have a lot of trouble using the more open programs like Klooge--I'd love to have a program that I could just load up and see work with the system, and that would get updates that you knew were official because, well, they came from WotC themselves.
Honestly, if what's holding this back is them trying to make it all graphically beautiful and such, I think they're reaching too far...what I really want--and what I'm pretty sure many people would at least be okay with--is a program that gets the mechanics of the game down, not one that displays it all with great graphics and character models and stuff. Hell, I'll use lettered/numbered tokens on a map if you can give me a gaming table that understands the rules.
Frankly--and I'm sure there are those who will disagree on this--even allowing for custom rules isn't that big a deal for me. I'd like it, sure, but if it gets a program that would be a huge help into my game...I'll stick with the rules as written.
EDIT: Irithil, what's this encounter manager you mentioned...the D&D4e something-or-other? It sounds like that might help with handling some things, at least...I guess from your description it handles HP tracking and tracking all those changes the various abilities cause?
Sorry, I don't check these that often.
This tool has been good to me, especially if you have a DDI subscription.
wiki.rpg.net/index.php/DnD4eCM
Keeps track of _most_ things if you use the turn system in there. Will auto drop off effects, for example, and has a reasonably intelligent system for putting them on. It requires windows, but it runs well, and allows you to save things off, blah, blah, blah
Hope that helps. (and thanks for reading my post)
The apologies WotC have given in the past are noted. However, this is becoming a question of value.
If I sell you a car, and tell you hey, everything on this works, it just needs paint, and doors, and a muffler. You pay me $100.00 for it, and then I'll make sure it's complete in the next couple of months. So the next two months roll by, sure the car is still running, and hey it runs great, but I still don't have paint or doors. Now your telling me your door manufacturer screwed you over, and because of it, I might never have doors. However you still might be able to paint it for me...maybe. Someday.
So, why not acknowledge this not with words, but with actions?
Why not tell me, you know what, your right...let me take some money off of the sell price, I can give a little back to you...not in perceived soft money, with a free this or that, but hard money! Not credits, or loyalty gear, or swag, but hard money.
If one of WotC's vendors screwed them over, does anyone at all really think that HASBRO is going sit idly by without sicking the teams of lawyers they have on whoever supposedly screwed them over, and be monetarily compensated for the lack of delivery?
The point is this...if the Virtual Dungeon, and the Character Visualizer will never be coming...reduce the cost of the annual membership until such time as these items are completed. This sounds really fair to me.
Not trying to get in a huge debate.
I love D&D.
In general I enjoy the DDI, and most products that WotC produces.
In this instance, I think it's best for WotC to reduce the monthly cost of the DDI.
All interesting, and for the most part valid points.
The apologies WotC have given in the past are noted. However, this is becoming a question of value.
If I sell you a car, and tell you hey, everything on this works, it just needs paint, and doors, and a muffler. You pay me $100.00 for it, and then I'll make sure it's complete in the next couple of months. So the next two months roll by, sure the car is still running, and hey it runs great, but I still don't have paint or doors. Now your telling me your door manufacturer screwed you over, and because of it, I might never have doors. However you still might be able to paint it for me...maybe. Someday.
Of course, to make it accurate, you also need to point out that the customer has yet to pay for the "paint, doors and a muffler".
The point is this...if the Virtual Dungeon, and the Character Visualizer will never be coming...reduce the cost of the annual membership until such time as these items are completed. This sounds really fair to me.
The price for the subscription has *never* included stuff that isn't out yet.
So it's more like, I can fix the stuff and paint it and put on new doors for $100.00
Then come back and say, the guy that does the painting can't do it, and the store ran out of doors, so if you still want the car, I can let you have it for a third of the price. But I totally understand if you don't want that anymore.
Of course, to make it accurate, you also need to point out that the customer has yet to pay for the "paint, doors and a muffler".
I would have to capitulate and agree that the way the EULA reads today, you would be correct. There is not much to debate on this. All though, from a consumers stand point, you have to agree that what was advertised vs. what was sold and what is being sold, are two different packages.
The price for the subscription has *never* included stuff that isn't out yet.
To take the point of view, that the DDI customers have not paid for anything they haven't gotten is acute at best. In the very strictest of legal perceptions, if you take this point of view, you would be correct. Legally.
But as a consumer, the phrase, "bait and switch" comes to mind.
I would have to capitulate and agree that the way the EULA reads today, you would be correct. There is not much to debate on this. All though, from a consumers stand point, you have to agree that what was advertised vs. what was sold and what is being sold, are two different packages.
Keep in mind that the books were sent to the printer approximately 6 months prior to the release of 4E. Thus you can look at it in one of two ways.
The first is that WotC thought that they would meet the deadline with the tools, and didn't.
The second is that WotC deliberately set out to screw the customers.
Here are the two previous subscriptions screens. both make it quite clear what people are getting when they subscribe.
The accusations of "bait and switch" seem to me to be pretty unjustified. A simple bit of reading shows, quite clearly, what you are getting with your subscription.
Of course, to make it accurate, you also need to point out that the customer has yet to pay for the "paint, doors and a muffler".
I would have to capitulate and agree that the way the EULA reads today, you would be correct. There is not much to debate on this. All though, from a consumers stand point, you have to agree that what was advertised vs. what was sold and what is being sold, are two different packages.The price for the subscription has *never* included stuff that isn't out yet.
To take the point of view, that the DDI customers have not paid for anything they haven't gotten is acute at best. In the very strictest of legal perceptions, if you take this point of view, you would be correct. Legally.
But as a consumer, the phrase, "bait and switch" comes to mind.
It would only be true if they never mentioned the delay of the tools, or what the tools would include. But it's been shown, they did.
They got people excited about the whole thing, yes. But they only charged for what they actually were able to do. And that was only after giving part of that for free for several months, and made it clear that the current price reflected only that which they could deliver.
You might want to go and look up what a bait and switch is. This isn't even close.
Were you offered a different version of the Game Table or Character Visualizer? Were you told they are all sold out, but you would do well to consider this other application?
You can't switch what was never for sale.
You can't be baited into the store when the doors are still locked with a sign saying, "Sorry, The Game Table isnt' available, and won't be available for some time, if ever. When we finally open, we are going to be offering something else until such time as we can decide if we can do the game table."
So...back in 2008 there was all this wonderful buzz regarding the tools we were going to see along with our DDI subscriptions...
Such as the Character Visualizer?
And the others?
Well, where are they?
Can we get an update?
That would be the most useless piece of software I can think of, no offense meant.
Players already have a fantastic Character Builder. Next thing on list should be improving Monster Builder and other DM tools.
.. and every year or so I find out that the Game Table is still not available.
I don't know how many folks like me are out there, but I would renew my subscription if I could host/DM campaigns for a regular group and join "pickup" games as a player. Graphics could be like "battle chess" and I'd be happy - characters would use an online version of character builder and be required to stay legal. Maps could be world view with zoom, or just a random hack and slash build.
It was a good dream.
I don't wish to create any inflammatory posts, or responses.
I am not suggesting that WotC did anything malicious, or out of sheer malign desire to screw over the consumer intentionally.
What I am suggesting is that the DDI needs to continue to expand, and that it should happen sooner rather than later.
I bought into this whole 4E thing, and have been a strong proponent of 4E, and the DDI in general, but the truth is, it is still lacking from promotional articles from Gen Con, as well as several videos on You Tube.
You can argue all day long defending whatever position you decide to take, but at the end of the day, it all boils down to opinion.
And, to be clear, there was no direct accusation of "bait and switch", I only insinuated that it brought it to mind.
For a true "bait and switch" there would have to be evidence of fraud, which of course there is none. But I am not the only that feels that WotC could be doing more, with DDI.
WotC opened up the whole can of worms taking elements of CCG's, MMORPG's, and traditional RPG's with this whole 4E experiment. Discussions like these will continue to evolve the hobby into what it is becoming.
In conclusion, it's more than just the Character Visualizer. I am still quite anxious to see a working virtual dungeon.
But honestly, I am not dissatisfied with what I am getting for my money. The CB and the Adventure Tools, even though we have nothing more than the monster builder, are alone worth the money already. And we get the Dungeon and Dragon on top of that, too. Nice. Totally worth the money.
But please don't get lazy. I don't really need a character visualizer (as it adds too little actually helping play the game), but anything that makes developing and running adventures easier would be a huge step forward.
Keep in mind that the books were sent to the printer approximately 6 months prior to the release of 4E. Thus you can look at it in one of two ways.
The first is that WotC thought that they would meet the deadline with the tools, and didn't.
The second is that WotC deliberately set out to screw the customers.
I've read this argument often. Typically followed with some statement to the effect that since wotc isn't evil, we should chill and cut them the slack they deserve.
However, I look at it in a third way.
By failing to release advertised products in a timely fashion Wotc, accidentally and without intending to, screwed their customers. Customers who bought in to 4E because they got inspired by what turned out to be vaporware got screwed directly. Customers who lost their faith and trust in the company got screwed indirectly.
How could Wotc have fixed this? By releasing the advertised and showcased products in a timely fashion. Note, I do not say "release them on time" as that ship already sailed. Apparently Wotc has never heard the old maxim "better late than never". If they had, after missing the initial deadline, simply stated "problems have arisen; our original timetable is moot, but we are doing what we can to bring you the product" they would not have this huge negative publicity flap hanging over them. They wouldn't have to overreact with the overly cautious policy of saying absolutely nothing until the week before a release.
Instead, they said "problems have arisen, and it's easier for us to scrap the project and pretend it didn't happen. So we're taking the easy way out. You'd be doing us a favor if you never mentioned the VTT or CV again. We certainly won't." And Wotc wonders why so many people express a lack of faith in the company and the direction it is taking dungeons and dragons in.
Instead, they said "problems have arisen, and it's easier for us to scrap the project and pretend it didn't happen. So we're taking the easy way out. You'd be doing us a favor if you never mentioned the VTT or CV again. We certainly won't."
Is that what they said? I mean, you quoted it, so it must be. I just can't seem to find that brash attitude in their announcements, nor do I recall it. But if it helps you fuel your grudge, then keep the fires burning, I say. You went the clear, concise, and logical route up until that last paragraph. Then it was just exaggeration for effect, which is nothing more than "clever" flaming.
Do I think you should cut them slack? Yes, I do. They still produce a fantastic product, and a lot of the events that occurred were out of their immediate control, so much in fact, that they would have likely had to start from scratch. They got bent over the barrel. And if you don't think that they remember, you're wrong. They have PHB's and DMG's as well, all with that last page.
And if they are not ready to go back down that road, then I completely understand. They got burned twice now by third party software companies that made them look bad in the end. Wizards was left holding the bag. They owned up when they had to. How long do they need to dwell on it to make you happy?
If they do go back down the path of the VTT (which I am sure they will eventually), then I am very confident that they will keep it all in-house the next time so they have full control over the situation and so they can ensure that it does not fall on its face again.
Do you have to cut them slack? No, of course not. But continuing to turn to the last page of the PHB and DMG and continuing to point at that advertisement with a middle finger does nothing constructive.
Mudbunny:
Keep in mind that the books were sent to the printer approximately 6 months prior to the release of 4E. Thus you can look at it in one of two ways.
The first is that WotC thought that they would meet the deadline with the tools, and didn't.
The second is that WotC deliberately set out to screw the customers.
I've read this argument often. Typically followed with some statement to the effect that since wotc isn't evil, we should chill and cut them the slack they deserve.
However, I look at it in a third way.
By failing to release advertised products in a timely fashion Wotc, accidentally and without intending to, screwed their customers. Customers who bought in to 4E because they got inspired by what turned out to be vaporware got screwed directly. Customers who lost their faith and trust in the company got screwed indirectly.
How could Wotc have fixed this? By releasing the advertised and showcased products in a timely fashion. Note, I do not say "release them on time" as that ship already sailed. Apparently Wotc has never heard the old maxim "better late than never". If they had, after missing the initial deadline, simply stated "problems have arisen; our original timetable is moot, but we are doing what we can to bring you the product" they would not have this huge negative publicity flap hanging over them. They wouldn't have to overreact with the overly cautious policy of saying absolutely nothing until the week before a release.
Instead, they said "problems have arisen, and it's easier for us to scrap the project and pretend it didn't happen. So we're taking the easy way out. You'd be doing us a favor if you never mentioned the VTT or CV again. We certainly won't." And Wotc wonders why so many people express a lack of faith in the company and the direction it is taking dungeons and dragons in.
Eh, you can look at it that way if you want. But doing so means you are ignoring a lot of the facts. If you want to ignore the facts, to hold a grudge, nothing anyone says will change your mind.
You are also misrepresenting and twisting what they said about the VTT.
How could Wotc have fixed this? By releasing the advertised and showcased products in a timely fashion. Note, I do not say "release them on time" as that ship already sailed. Apparently Wotc has never heard the old maxim "better late than never". If they had, after missing the initial deadline, simply stated "problems have arisen; our original timetable is moot, but we are doing what we can to bring you the product" they would not have this huge negative publicity flap hanging over them. They wouldn't have to overreact with the overly cautious policy of saying absolutely nothing until the week before a release.
They did say that. Shortly after the release of 4E, they said (paraphrased) "we over-promised and under-delivered on the DDI tools, and we apologize. As opposed to working on all the tools and releasing them all at the same time, we will be working on one at a time, to ensure that the tools are of a high quality".
Instead, they said "problems have arisen, and it's easier for us to scrap the project and pretend it didn't happen. So we're taking the easy way out. You'd be doing us a favor if you never mentioned the VTT or CV again. We certainly won't."
To the best of my knowledge they have never said that, nor have they said anything even remotely resembling that. They have said (again, paraphrased) "we will only be working on one tool at a time, and placing all of the others on back burners in the meantime because we don't want to get into a situation where we are forced to disappoint the customers (and ourselves) to such a great degree again."
In the end, I suppose it all comes down to your point of view. What we see WotC as having done, and the reasons for doing it, is a very subjective viewpoint.
www.figureprints.com/CharacterList.aspx?...
Just find a character of a similar race, pick some armour and a pose, then snap some screenshots.
In the meantime, use this:
www.figureprints.com/CharacterList.aspx?...
Just find a character of a similar race, pick some armour and a pose, then snap some screenshots.
It looks like you have to actually create a WoW toon to use that.
In the meantime, use this:
www.figureprints.com/CharacterList.aspx?...
Just find a character of a similar race, pick some armour and a pose, then snap some screenshots.
It looks like you have to actually create a WoW toon to use that.
How to use it without a WoW character
Step One
Go to:
www.wowarmory.com/
Step Two
Type something random but common in the search bar.
Step Three
Click on a guild (or two or three) and pull-up a list of members. Pick one that's well-populated.
Step Four
Copy the name & Realm of a character with appropriate race, or look for one with a good hairstyle or face (look for one without a tabard).
Step Five
Go to www.figureprints.com/ and use the copied character in the demo, pick appropriate armour then pose