Collection of WotC communiques re: products, insider, tools, essentials, etc. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LlamasNotsheep Apr 10, 2011 17:23:31	Has anyone collected links to the various communications by WotC officials outlining what's going on with DDI--the mags, the tools, etc.? I think it'd be interesting to have a one-stop-shop for referring back to what we were told to expect. Particularly stuff from 2011, although they did start working on changing our expectations about a year ago. So, before I start digging around, does anyone have some or all of the stuff collected in one place? The sorts of things I think would be useful to collect for future reference: Communications on Dragon/Dungeon content - what, how much, how often? Communications on Tools - what, when, why, etc. Communications on general goals, timelines, etc. Communications on Essentials, vis-a-vis pre-essentials - focus, future support, etc. Something like this seems like it'd be useful, both as a quick reference for the frequent questions that come up, and as a little reminder for the folks at WotC about what they've said. I know the information is scattered across the forums, blogs, maybe even some twitter feeds (which I don't follow at all), so there's some work involved.
#2 mrmyth Apr 11, 2011 8:42:52	I think the problem is that several of these elements are in transition, and there simply aren't any firm answers that have been given. They haven't really openly discussed the change in content in Dragon/Dungeon - Trevor assured us that the content wasn't being reduced with the removal of the compilations, and then it was, and Steve Winter has largely avoided responding to any questions about it. They have addressed the issues with delayed articles, offering the new review process as the explanation, and assuring us that it would be getting better. Which it has... kinda. They got all of March's articles out before the end of March. However, it involved missing content for the first 3 weeks of the month - a pattern we are looking to repeat, in April. And March's content for Dragon, of course, was a completely unacceptable amount of content, so that doesn't bode well either. Similarly, as far as the tools are concerned, I think they are avoiding giving out any firm goals or timelines that people will later insist on being 'promises'. Instead, they usually give an update around a week before anything new comes along. They seem to be making progress on developing the online tools as a whole, certainly - but I don't think there is any announcement out there of exactly what is next, even if there have been hints.
#3 DMaple Apr 11, 2011 10:15:10	I linked a few in this thread. Trevor back in January on the no longer using the Content Calander, on Dragon/Dungeon production moving to be part of same production channel as other D&D products. That "We still get article content every week day, and we should find out every week what articles to expect" and that "The plan is to get those articles up at midnight West Coast time just like they were before." Obviously this was early days probably before it became apparant that that wasn't going to be possible. If that's still their goal it would be nice to know and when they actually think they will meet it. Trevor same day on lack of compilations where he says it was too much like hard work to make them, and that they were "not cutting back on content". WotC_Huscal less than a month later where he admits they have effectively cut the content in the magazines in half "Our monthly target is 50-60,000 words between the two magazines". He claims that their chief objective "which is to raise quality and cut down the number of corrections" has been met by going through R&D. Something that is argueable at best when you look at the Errata forums. Trevor's most recent one is still stickied. There he goes on about switching from a daily deadline with the content calander to a monthly deadline. Yet seems to forget the weekly deadlines they set. Although he does let out that it was due to a lack of resources that the content isn't getting out on time. I thought I might go back and look at some of the half truths and "changes of plan" they made before the release of the Online Character Builder, or announcing the VT, but really I couldn't care less what was said anymore. It's clear that plans seem to be changing rapidly, if you look at just the three post I linked, so really what's the point, it's not like you can hold them to anything. They screwed up, they know they screwed up, they are continuing to screw up (MB release, nothing for D&DI for nearly two weeks), but they are at least trying to improve (getting March's magazine out within the month). I suspect they are just as annoyed as the rest of us that things aren't going to plan.
#4 sheepyg Apr 20, 2011 9:37:17	I suspect they are just as annoyed as the rest of us that things aren't going to plan. They can be annoyed. However I can't help but think "despite this, insiders still pay and they still get paid"...
#5 RedSiegfried Apr 20, 2011 13:24:37	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc
#6 lokiare Apr 20, 2011 15:24:12	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc Or they wise up and stop treating their intelligent customers like 4 year olds...
#7 LlamasNotsheep Apr 20, 2011 21:05:46	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc Using it to give wotc the finger would be bad. Using it as a reminder of what acceptable levels of content look like, or as reminders of what they said insider would be getting, is a whole different ball game. I'm sure there are those who'll use it out of spite... but generally, I think most everyone else has learned to tune them out. I think there's value in tracking expectations, that's all. P.S. DMaple: thanks, that was pretty much the entire set of communications I had in mind. Of course, if there are more out there, so much the better!
#8 mudbunny Apr 21, 2011 9:22:11	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC.
#9 lokiare Apr 21, 2011 11:37:00	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC. The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers.
#10 kenjoon Apr 21, 2011 12:08:47	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC. The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers. @mudbunny: This here proves that your faith in some people is misplaced. @lokiare: That's what you see because that's what you want to see. (Self fulfilling prophecy and all)
#11 Jharii Apr 21, 2011 13:06:09	Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether. /sarc There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC. The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers. @mudbunny: This here proves that your faith in some people is misplaced. @lokiare: That's what you see because that's what you want to see. (Self fulfilling prophecy and all) Thanks for providing Mudbunny a perfect example. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all.
#12 lokiare Apr 22, 2011 14:38:47	Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open... "I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat." "oops plans change here's a $1 instead." But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back... Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it...
#13 kenjoon Apr 24, 2011 8:40:28	Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open... "I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat." "oops plans change here's a $1 instead." But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back... Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it... I'm sorry lokiare, but companies just don't change plans as often as you attribute to WotC. They've most likely had a plan since they started working on the online CB last year. There may have been minor changes to that plan, but overall it hasn't changed. What DOES change is what people on these forums speculate about what those plans are. The simple fact is that many of your so called "lies" are based on assumptions, speculation, etc. Unless we work at WotC there is no way to know one way or the other what the "truth" is. Sure we can speculate, we can even be mad, but in the end none of it will be proven anywhere but in the court of public opinion.
#14 lokiare Apr 24, 2011 12:59:21	Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open... "I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat." "oops plans change here's a $1 instead." But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back... Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it... I'm sorry lokiare, but companies just don't change plans as often as you attribute to WotC. They've most likely had a plan since they started working on the online CB last year. There may have been minor changes to that plan, but overall it hasn't changed. What DOES change is what people on these forums speculate about what those plans are. The simple fact is that many of your so called "lies" are based on assumptions, speculation, etc. Unless we work at WotC there is no way to know one way or the other what the "truth" is. Sure we can speculate, we can even be mad, but in the end none of it will be proven anywhere but in the court of public opinion. No actually many of their lies are because they state one thing and then do something else. Then they go back and say "it's OK, we just changed plans". You can sugarcoat it all you want but they have lied to us many times since the release of 4E. You can attribute it to "changing direction", "One hand not knowing what the other is doing", or just plain "omission". I can lie then come up with excuses too, doesn't make it right or even acceptable...
#15 LlamasNotsheep Apr 25, 2011 0:41:26	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!
#16 lokiare Apr 25, 2011 15:01:36	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.
#17 kenjoon Apr 25, 2011 15:29:26	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?
#18 rjdafoe Apr 25, 2011 20:55:05	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer? I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision and were told that it wasn't good enough. It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad.
#19 kenjoon Apr 25, 2011 21:04:05	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer? I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough. It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad. There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC.
#20 Damon_Tor Apr 25, 2011 21:52:01	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer? I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough. It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad. There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC. There is a grey area: "spin" is when you take something that is bad and make it sound good, or at least not-so-bad. They didn't lie in that announcement: they just made something that was crappy (and they knew was crappy) sound good and awesome by playing on our expectations for it. It was never a question in my mind, reading that announcement, that they were releaseing the exact same Monster Builder they had beta tested. Companies do this all the time. It's not what I'd call "honest" but it's not a lie either; it's that middle ground you claim doesn't exist. That's not to say they haven't crossed that line though. Communications about the lack of CBC updates while the OCB was secretly in development were lies, for example, as were later explanations as to why DS and Essentials materials were never put into the CBC. I consider the retcon of the Executioner as an HoS "playtest" as a lie as well, but others generously give WotC the benefit of the doubt. I think the comments about DDI material releases are mistakes: I think they genuinely thought they'd be back on track my now and are frustrated they aren't. Their congratulating themselves for "unqualified success" with DDI content last moth is certainly spin, but again, it's not a lie, it's just the captain staying calm while the engines catch on fire.
#21 lokiare Apr 25, 2011 22:02:19	Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME! Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer? I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough. It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad. There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC. It doesn't matter which one it was. I could understand one mistake every once in a while, even one outright lie once in a while. When you start getting one lie/mistake each week. It starts to hint at an underlying problem. Usually these kinds of problems can be tied to management not having any idea what they are doing or trying to save their own rears, while rolling the 'crap' downhill. If they are lying there is a problem because they think they can lie to their customer base and get away with it. Since the majority of people that play D&D are semi-intelligent or fully intelligent this just won't fly, and we've told them about it. If they are 'making mistakes' then someone in management doesn't know what's going on or how to do their job. Since it keeps repeating I'd say its probably high up or someone that is entrenched and won't be easily removed. This usually points to someone higher up. As I said if it were rare or the exception it'd be one thing, its not. Its a constant string of lies/mistakes that is totally undermining what could have been. This is the sticking point with me. At this point they should have had fully integrated Character Builder, Character Visualizer, Monster Builder, Encounter Builder, Map Builder, Adventure Builder, Campaign Builder, and fully 3D online VT...

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

LlamasNotsheep

Apr 10, 2011 17:23:31

Has anyone collected links to the various communications by WotC officials outlining what's going on with DDI--the mags, the tools, etc.? I think it'd be interesting to have a one-stop-shop for referring back to what we were told to expect. Particularly stuff from 2011, although they did start working on changing our expectations about a year ago.

So, before I start digging around, does anyone have some or all of the stuff collected in one place? The sorts of things I think would be useful to collect for future reference:

Communications on Dragon/Dungeon content - what, how much, how often?

Communications on Tools - what, when, why, etc.

Communications on general goals, timelines, etc.

Communications on Essentials, vis-a-vis pre-essentials - focus, future support, etc.

Something like this seems like it'd be useful, both as a quick reference for the frequent questions that come up, and as a little reminder for the folks at WotC about what they've said. I know the information is scattered across the forums, blogs, maybe even some twitter feeds (which I don't follow at all), so there's some work involved.

mrmyth

Apr 11, 2011 8:42:52

I think the problem is that several of these elements are in transition, and there simply aren't any firm answers that have been given.

They haven't really openly discussed the change in content in Dragon/Dungeon - Trevor assured us that the content wasn't being reduced with the removal of the compilations, and then it was, and Steve Winter has largely avoided responding to any questions about it.

They have addressed the issues with delayed articles, offering the new review process as the explanation, and assuring us that it would be getting better. Which it has... kinda. They got all of March's articles out before the end of March. However, it involved missing content for the first 3 weeks of the month - a pattern we are looking to repeat, in April. And March's content for Dragon, of course, was a completely unacceptable amount of content, so that doesn't bode well either.

Similarly, as far as the tools are concerned, I think they are avoiding giving out any firm goals or timelines that people will later insist on being 'promises'. Instead, they usually give an update around a week before anything new comes along. They seem to be making progress on developing the online tools as a whole, certainly - but I don't think there is any announcement out there of exactly what is next, even if there have been hints.

DMaple

Apr 11, 2011 10:15:10

I linked a few in this thread.

Trevor back in January on the no longer using the Content Calander, on Dragon/Dungeon production moving to be part of same production channel as other D&D products. That "We still get article content every week day, and we should find out every week what articles to expect" and that "The plan is to get those articles up at midnight West Coast time just like they were before." Obviously this was early days probably before it became apparant that that wasn't going to be possible. If that's still their goal it would be nice to know and when they actually think they will meet it.

Trevor same day on lack of compilations where he says it was too much like hard work to make them, and that they were "not cutting back on content".

WotC_Huscal less than a month later where he admits they have effectively cut the content in the magazines in half "Our monthly target is 50-60,000 words between the two magazines". He claims that their chief objective "which is to raise quality and cut down the number of corrections" has been met by going through R&D. Something that is argueable at best when you look at the Errata forums.

Trevor's most recent one is still stickied. There he goes on about switching from a daily deadline with the content calander to a monthly deadline. Yet seems to forget the weekly deadlines they set. Although he does let out that it was due to a lack of resources that the content isn't getting out on time.

I thought I might go back and look at some of the half truths and "changes of plan" they made before the release of the Online Character Builder, or announcing the VT, but really I couldn't care less what was said anymore. It's clear that plans seem to be changing rapidly, if you look at just the three post I linked, so really what's the point, it's not like you can hold them to anything.

They screwed up, they know they screwed up, they are continuing to screw up (MB release, nothing for D&DI for nearly two weeks), but they are at least trying to improve (getting March's magazine out within the month). I suspect they are just as annoyed as the rest of us that things aren't going to plan.

sheepyg

Apr 20, 2011 9:37:17

I suspect they are just as annoyed as the rest of us that things aren't going to plan.

They can be annoyed. However I can't help but think "despite this, insiders still pay and they still get paid"...

RedSiegfried

Apr 20, 2011 13:24:37

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

lokiare

Apr 20, 2011 15:24:12

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

Or they wise up and stop treating their intelligent customers like 4 year olds...

LlamasNotsheep

Apr 20, 2011 21:05:46

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

Using it to give wotc the finger would be bad. Using it as a reminder of what acceptable levels of content look like, or as reminders of what they said insider would be getting, is a whole different ball game.

I'm sure there are those who'll use it out of spite... but generally, I think most everyone else has learned to tune them out.

I think there's value in tracking expectations, that's all.

P.S. DMaple: thanks, that was pretty much the entire set of communications I had in mind. Of course, if there are more out there, so much the better!

mudbunny

Apr 21, 2011 9:22:11

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC.

lokiare

Apr 21, 2011 11:37:00

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC.

The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers.

#10

kenjoon

Apr 21, 2011 12:08:47

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC.

The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers.

@mudbunny: This here proves that your faith in some people is misplaced.
@lokiare: That's what you see because that's what you want to see. (Self fulfilling prophecy and all)

#11

Jharii

Apr 21, 2011 13:06:09

Collecting quotes to throw in WoTC's collective face after they fail would be an excellent method of displaying their inherent hypocrisy and lying nature. Hopefully after a few such incidents they'll cease communicating with their customers altogether.

/sarc

There is a thin line between asking WotC why the plan changed and throwing it in their face at every available opportunity. I have faith that the WotC forum community can be mature enough, on the whole, to ask questions that seek information, as opposed to resorting to mud-slinging, which in turn only leads to further stonewalling from WotC.

The problem as I see it is not that Wotc occassionally makes mistakes in announcments or once in a while changes plans. Its that they constantly lie to us and constantly change plans at the drop of a hat. At some point we need to hold them accountable for their bad business practices. Even if it is just showing that they are not trustworthy to new customers.

@mudbunny: This here proves that your faith in some people is misplaced.
@lokiare: That's what you see because that's what you want to see. (Self fulfilling prophecy and all)

Thanks for providing Mudbunny a perfect example. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all.

#12

lokiare

Apr 22, 2011 14:38:47

Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open...

"I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat."

"oops plans change here's a $1 instead."

But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back...

Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it...

#13

kenjoon

Apr 24, 2011 8:40:28

Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open...

"I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat."

"oops plans change here's a $1 instead."

But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back...

Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it...

I'm sorry lokiare, but companies just don't change plans as often as you attribute to WotC. They've most likely had a plan since they started working on the online CB last year. There may have been minor changes to that plan, but overall it hasn't changed. What DOES change is what people on these forums speculate about what those plans are. The simple fact is that many of your so called "lies" are based on assumptions, speculation, etc. Unless we work at WotC there is no way to know one way or the other what the "truth" is. Sure we can speculate, we can even be mad, but in the end none of it will be proven anywhere but in the court of public opinion.

#14

lokiare

Apr 24, 2011 12:59:21

Here they gathered all of the WotC double talk and compare it to current plans. Its pretty blatant that WotC lies to us on a semi-regular basis. I see it because I have my eyes open. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but the facts are there in the open...

"I'm gonna give you $100 for your hat."

"oops plans change here's a $1 instead."

But I just had a change of plans, that's perfectly reasonable right? If you don't like it give me my dollar and you can have your slightly used hat back...

Its not ok when I do it, its not ok when WotC does it...

I'm sorry lokiare, but companies just don't change plans as often as you attribute to WotC. They've most likely had a plan since they started working on the online CB last year. There may have been minor changes to that plan, but overall it hasn't changed. What DOES change is what people on these forums speculate about what those plans are. The simple fact is that many of your so called "lies" are based on assumptions, speculation, etc. Unless we work at WotC there is no way to know one way or the other what the "truth" is. Sure we can speculate, we can even be mad, but in the end none of it will be proven anywhere but in the court of public opinion.

No actually many of their lies are because they state one thing and then do something else. Then they go back and say "it's OK, we just changed plans".

You can sugarcoat it all you want but they have lied to us many times since the release of 4E. You can attribute it to "changing direction", "One hand not knowing what the other is doing", or just plain "omission". I can lie then come up with excuses too, doesn't make it right or even acceptable...

#15

LlamasNotsheep

Apr 25, 2011 0:41:26

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

#16

lokiare

Apr 25, 2011 15:01:36

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

#17

kenjoon

Apr 25, 2011 15:29:26

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?

#18

rjdafoe

Apr 25, 2011 20:55:05

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?

I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision and were told that it wasn't good enough.

It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad.

#19

kenjoon

Apr 25, 2011 21:04:05

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?

I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough.

It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad.

There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC.

#20

Damon_Tor

Apr 25, 2011 21:52:01

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?

I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough.

It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad.

There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC.

There is a grey area: "spin" is when you take something that is bad and make it sound good, or at least not-so-bad. They didn't lie in that announcement: they just made something that was crappy (and they knew was crappy) sound good and awesome by playing on our expectations for it. It was never a question in my mind, reading that announcement, that they were releaseing the exact same Monster Builder they had beta tested.

Companies do this all the time. It's not what I'd call "honest" but it's not a lie either; it's that middle ground you claim doesn't exist.

That's not to say they haven't crossed that line though. Communications about the lack of CBC updates while the OCB was secretly in development were lies, for example, as were later explanations as to why DS and Essentials materials were never put into the CBC. I consider the retcon of the Executioner as an HoS "playtest" as a lie as well, but others generously give WotC the benefit of the doubt.

I think the comments about DDI material releases are mistakes: I think they genuinely thought they'd be back on track my now and are frustrated they aren't. Their congratulating themselves for "unqualified success" with DDI content last moth is certainly spin, but again, it's not a lie, it's just the captain staying calm while the engines catch on fire.

#21

lokiare

Apr 25, 2011 22:02:19

Or just not managing to pull off what they set out to do? Nah. It couldn't possibly be that, there must be some sinister intent. THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME!

Yah, I'm winning the argument. I know this because instead of debating the facts you are using rederic and fallacies to try to sway people.

Let me ask you a question: The recent gaff over the release of the online MB. Lie or Mistake? And once you've answered that, how do you propose to prove said answer?

I would say neither - but it was a deliberate decision that they know the outcome of and were told that it wasn't good enough.

It does not have to be a lie or a mistake. Knowningly doing something can be just as bad.

There is no middle ground on this one. Either they lied (the announcement was done knowingly and on purpose) or they didn't (it was some sort of internal mistake). The only other option here is that you don't know what I'm talking about in which case I'll tell you. The "announcement" we got at the "release" of the new "online monster builder" said all kinds of things that were just not true, or at the very least implied a lot of things that were not true. Either way they lied or they made a mistake. One is on purpose, the other is on accident. And it doesn't really matter which you pick, you can't prove it one way or the other unless you work at WotC.

It doesn't matter which one it was. I could understand one mistake every once in a while, even one outright lie once in a while. When you start getting one lie/mistake each week. It starts to hint at an underlying problem. Usually these kinds of problems can be tied to management not having any idea what they are doing or trying to save their own rears, while rolling the 'crap' downhill.

If they are lying there is a problem because they think they can lie to their customer base and get away with it. Since the majority of people that play D&D are semi-intelligent or fully intelligent this just won't fly, and we've told them about it.

If they are 'making mistakes' then someone in management doesn't know what's going on or how to do their job. Since it keeps repeating I'd say its probably high up or someone that is entrenched and won't be easily removed. This usually points to someone higher up.

As I said if it were rare or the exception it'd be one thing, its not. Its a constant string of lies/mistakes that is totally undermining what could have been. This is the sticking point with me. At this point they should have had fully integrated Character Builder, Character Visualizer, Monster Builder, Encounter Builder, Map Builder, Adventure Builder, Campaign Builder, and fully 3D online VT...