Their rationale was that people tended to download the individual articles and not the compiled artilces - they claim. The massive amount of negative feedback which has appeared on the forums indicates otherwise. People do download the compiled articles and wish them to come back.
Bringing back the compiled issues will not increase the cost to produce each issue. The articles are all there, even the cover art for each issue is still there. Creating the compiled version simply requires whipping up a table of contents and joining together the individual pdfs.
I propose that during the week of May 24-30, we call call in to Wizards of the Coast and threaten to cancel our subscriptions in June if the compiled pdfs are not brought back. The number to call is (800) 324-6496. From that number you can speak to a customer service rep.
Voicing your complaint with a post on this forum won't do much good. But if we all call in together we can make our voices heard.
In any case, I find it much more convenient to download the stuff I like, including adventure articles are their own files, that get everything jumbled together.
I just realized why I don't care about compilations and maybe some folks do. I use Google Reader. I have a subscription to official D&D content, and so get a nice list of everything that comes out. You could probably use other RSS Feed programs and get the same result. I highly recommend it.
In any case, I find it much more convenient to download the stuff I like, including adventure articles are their own files, that get everything jumbled together.
For those of us who enjoy the compiled pdf, has it helped you that we have been denied it?
Until this year, every issue was compiled and it didn't seem to bother WotC then, so why now? Because I read the entire issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazines (and have been since their respective first issues in print), in order to do that now, I have to download each article of each issue, which is more trouble and more time consuming. That might be why WotC stopped compiling them--it was too much trouble for them and too time consuming. The difference, however, is that we are paying for them. Being able to download entire issues was actually included as part of the D&D Insider service that subscribers were paying for.
If WotC and Hasbro really want to provide exceptional customer service, as they claim, they could prove it by going back to the practice of providing customers who want compiled issues to be able to download them. Threatening to cancel subscriptions is not going to hurt WotC or Hasbro, because so few will actually do it. Calling many times, relentlessly, and Jamming their switchboards, however, might just have an impact.
What is so sad, is that both WotC and Hasbro seem to want to alienate, disappoint, and anger some customers rather than embrace them, please them, and make them want to encourage those without subscriptions to sign up. It would only increase their revenue, as well as good will. Everyone would be much happier, and that is true customer service.
I just realized why I don't care about compilations and maybe some folks do. I use Google Reader. I have a subscription to official D&D content, and so get a nice list of everything that comes out. You could probably use other RSS Feed programs and get the same result. I highly recommend it.
In any case, I find it much more convenient to download the stuff I like, including adventure articles are their own files, that get everything jumbled together.
For those of us who enjoy the compiled pdf, has it helped you that we have been denied it?
Yes, all that time saved compiling it has been converted into more content!!
Oh wait, no it hasn't. That level of service has decreased as well.
I just realized why I don't care about compilations and maybe some folks do. I use Google Reader. I have a subscription to official D&D content, and so get a nice list of everything that comes out. You could probably use other RSS Feed programs and get the same result. I highly recommend it.
In any case, I find it much more convenient to download the stuff I like, including adventure articles are their own files, that get everything jumbled together.
For those of us who enjoy the compiled pdf, has it helped you that we have been denied it?
No, of course not, I certainly wouldn't wish for anyone to be unhappy and not get what they want. I'm guessing, as some have speculated, that the cost-benefit ratio for producing the compilation was deemed to be lower that other potential efforts for the staff. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, only trying to help by suggesting other ways of getting to the material for folks used to compilations.
The difference, however, is that we are paying for them.
This is false.
Being able to download entire issues was actually included as part of the D&D Insider service that subscribers were paying for.
This is true.
Please be aware of the difference.
Since the move to the online magazine format you are paying for "DDI" (the service). Whether or not that service includes a feature called "compiled PDFs" is a reason to buy (or not buy) said service, but you are never directly paying for "compiled PDFs". Most posts I've seen about bringing back the compiliations have a sense of "entitlement" to them, like you deserve to get the compilations because you are "paying" for them which is not true and has never been true.
None of this is to say you don't have a right to be angry/frustrated/whatever at the loss of a "feature" of the "service". But in my personal view, I don't see WotC bringing them back unless enough people actually quit DDI over it (nods to DMaple).
I absolutely do not understand why they wouldn't provide full issue d/l's unless it was a way to prevent people from trading issues or something. How difficult is it to merge issues into a collective pdf? I've actually been hassling myself to take the articles and merge them into a single issue pdf because thats how I like it on my reader. Much much more convenient, not to mention time saving to click one download as opposed to 7 or 8.
I came online today to pull down the last few issues as I leave on a trip overseas, some great reading on my long trip... but I sure don't want to spend the next 30 minutes downloading all the articles, then trying to organize them on my reader.
Come on Wizards, put the compiled issues back or lose another subscriber. I like to support you guys but there has just been too much craziness lately...and I hear this statement echoed from all corners these days.
Honestly, I think you'd get much better results e-mailing the dndinsider address. Those go directly to the team responsible, rather than to a phone bank somewhere that just reports in once a month to the relevant people.
Honestly, I think you'd get much better results e-mailing the dndinsider address.
How about both?
The reason they stopped is simple: they're trying to combat piracy by making it less convenient. It's the same story as the entire history of DRM. They're gambling that the negative impact on paying customers will be outweighed by the reduction in piracy caused by that inconvenience.
The stated reason, as of DDXP was that - under the current errata/update process for D&D Insider articles, they were fixing articles by updating them in the compilation. Then, if that compilation needed an update, it was in the Updates document.
This lead to (potentially) having 3 different versions of an article, and was a pain all the way around.
The new process is to simply leave the articles uncompiled (which also frees up resources for layout and design work) - and if/when Updates need to be applied, they can simply go in and edit the core article - without worrying about the change(s) then fouling up the layout of a compiled PDF E-Zine.
Given that a lot of their changes for this year revolve around bring DDI into the full scope of R&D - as well as are steps to improve their errata/updates process, I'm inclined to believe them.
Combating piracy (or "appearing to", lest this become a debate about the effectiveness) may be a fringe benefit, but I'm skeptical that it was a primary reason for the change.
[EDIT]
With that said, while I'm not much affected by the change (though, a part of me did like printing the compiled issues for the first couple years and putting them on my bookshelf) - I wholly support this campaign. Calling and writing in to makes yourselves heard clearly, and rationally is a TERRIFIC course of action.
Given that a lot of their changes for this year revolve around bring DDI into the full scope of R&D - as well as are steps to improve their errata/updates process, I'm inclined to believe them.
Combating piracy (or "appearing to", lest this become a debate about the effectiveness) may be a fringe benefit, but I'm skeptical that it was a primary reason for the change.
Well the errata excuse is daft as, we all know from the latest Editorial that the move to R&D is a complete success so there will be no need to do errata at all, because everything they produce is perfect.
The piracy defense is also rubbish because, the pirates are actual now producing complied editions of the content from the magazines, a service Wizards no longer provides.
The only real reason is the one they gave, that it isn't worth their effort. They don't have the resources to do this anymore.
Basically they are now under resourced, for some reason, perhaps there have been a load of redundacies we haven't heard of, or people move internally to other departments in WotC or Hasbro or perhaps most of their staff are working on 5th Edition
.Those go directly to the team responsible, rather than to a phone bank somewhere that just reports in once a month to the relevant people.
Databases and networks are a sign of the times. There is no need for "monthly" reports, even if your theoretical "phone bank" exists. Data availability is immediate. At least a half dozen times, through Wizards themselves, I have been addressed outside of customer support from issues that I submitted to customer support.
Hmm Oh look I can change the footer, lets take off their page numbers with a crop, and add my own so they go from 1 to 64 (Using Dungeon 186 as my test case). Hmm that took about the same time to figure out, so 1 minute so far.
Still I could do with a cover... now I've used Photoshop before so combining the Dungeon side bar from the last compliation, masking out the month and issue number and adding in the correct month and issue number together with the illustration took say 15 minutes.
Still they have a contents page and editorial. Okay lets learn Adobe InDesign, never having used this before it took me a couple of hours to get the hang of it copying and pasting the style of previous compilations and building a decent mock up of the original pages.
Then compile the lot. Total time 2hours 30 minutes. Including time to learn InDesign, I imagine if I set up some templates I could probably do the whole thing in less than an hour next time.
They really can't afford the time to do that?
They really can't afford the time to do that?
Well, that's assuming that time is one of the primary reasons they stopped. You're welcome to assume that's the case, but it doesn't match the primary reasons they've listed for stopping.
It's little wonder then that "not enough time" is a baffling answer, since they haven't said that's a primary reason for why they aren't doing it.
They really can't afford the time to do that?
Well, that's assuming that time is one of the primary reasons they stopped. You're welcome to assume that's the case, but it doesn't match the primary reasons they've listed for stopping.
It's little wonder then that "not enough time" is a baffling answer, since they haven't said that's a primary reason for why they aren't doing it.
I was going to repsond with this, but you beat me to it so...
This +1.
They really can't afford the time to do that?
Well, that's assuming that time is one of the primary reasons they stopped. You're welcome to assume that's the case, but it doesn't match the primary reasons they've listed for stopping.
Really? I could have sworn they said time was the reason... oh yeah here it is.
"So why did we decide to do this? It takes a lot of time to compile and reformat the articles for the end of month rollups and, unfortunately, the amount of downloads we’ve been seeing hasn’t been enough to justify the time it takes to put them together. By cutting that out of the equation, we free up more time to focus on other aspects of the D&D website."
It's little wonder then that "not enough time" is a baffling answer, since they haven't said that's a primary reason for why they aren't doing it.
In fact time was the only reason they gave. When they first anounce they were stopping the compilations they actually didn't provide any reason at all, it was only when people kicked up a fuss in the forums that Trevor came up with that excuse. The not enough people were downloading them to justify the time. Ideas about it being to try and stop piracy or to make it harder for someone to sign up for a month and then download back issues are just speculations at the real reason. The only reason WotC have official given is it isn't worth their time.
Not enough people were downloading them to justify the couple of hours it would take to put them together, we can clearly see from the demand for them back that there is more than enough people to justify a few man hours spent on the task each month.
I really hope they are using those precious few hours productively.
You do realize that Trevor's statement was 10 days before DDXP? WolfStar76 did say as of DDXP. I remember both statements, and although the time issue does seem to ring hollow I totally buy the not wanting to update three different documents to reflect the changes that can occur. Better to have one document. Also it is possible that Trevor (not one of the layout and design people I'm fairly certain) didn't quite understand what he was being told. It may be that the time to compile the issue was not the issue, but the time to maintain three different version and recompile every time there was a change.
Then the real answer is that you change the process so there is only 1 document and still do the compile.
Looking back at the history of DDI, I still say the real reason we don,t know and can only speculate. They never will tell anyone outside WotC. They seem to come up with what they feel are plausible excuses or reasons and then change them when the community points them out as bogus.
You do realize that Trevor's statement was 10 days before DDXP? WolfStar76 did say as of DDXP. I remember both statements, and although the time issue does seem to ring hollow I totally buy the not wanting to update three different documents to reflect the changes that can occur. Better to have one document. Also it is possible that Trevor (not one of the layout and design people I'm fairly certain) didn't quite understand what he was being told. It may be that the time to compile the issue was not the issue, but the time to maintain three different version and recompile every time there was a change.
Then the real answer is that you change the process so there is only 1 document and still do the compile. Looking back at the history of DDI, I still say the real reason we don,t know and can only speculate. They never will tell anyone outside WotC. They seem to come up with what they feel are plausible excuses or reasons and then change them when the community points them out as bogus.
Well the point it that things can (and apparently have) change(ed) after the compilation is made. Which makes me wonder if there is some way to automate the compilations. In other words have 1 document for each article as they now do it, but have a compile button on the contents page of the web site. When you press the button it auto-compiles the current versions of the articles into a complete issue. The only problem I see with this (and this is speculation on my part) is that WotC seems to care about getting the corrected information into the users hands, and people who didn't recompile on occasion would have outdated information.
If there was a change in the number of pages it might at most take 30 minutes to update that document, and that is mainly because I've added bookmarks which is something WotC never did.
WotC seems to care about getting the corrected information into the users hands, and people who didn't recompile on occasion would have outdated information.
They seem to but they have a funny way of doing things.
Clearly Dragon and Dungeon are subscriber content. Any D&DI subscriber has an easy way to check the current correct information, and thats the Compendium. Personally I don't see a huge need to worry about keeping compiled issues up to date so long as you point out that the compendium is the official source of up to date material.
What's worrying is the Compendium doesn't seem to be the only database they work from. The compendium entry, character builder feat entry and VT import of feats from the character can all say something slightly different about some feats, which implies to me they already have three databases they need to update for any change, before they even look at articles or compliations, sounds like a mess to me.
Clearly Dragon and Dungeon are subscriber content. Any D&DI subscriber has an easy way to check the current correct information, and thats the Compendium. Personally I don't see a huge need to worry about keeping compiled issues up to date so long as you point out that the compendium is the official source of up to date material.
Except that the PDFs are an offline resource (with the exception of the initial download), and the Compendium is not. They don't really equate.
Clearly Dragon and Dungeon are subscriber content. Any D&DI subscriber has an easy way to check the current correct information, and thats the Compendium. Personally I don't see a huge need to worry about keeping compiled issues up to date so long as you point out that the compendium is the official source of up to date material.
Except that the PDFs are an offline resource (with the exception of the initial download), and the Compendium is not. They don't really equate.
That's true, but frankly, given the massive reduction in content, why can't they update three seperate documents? Doesn't seem that hard to me and from what DMaple has said it isn't that hard.
Personally, I used to download individual articles that I would place in folders by the game world location I wanted to place them in or whether they were generic Player or DM Resource and then I saved compilations in a different folder. That way, if a filtered search turned something up in the Compendium, I could check the source article by looking at the compiled issue to read the original material. Now, I have to search my hard drive to find the individual article which takes more time.
This is, of course, only a personal issue but given that I am paying the same amount of money for a reduced quantity of content, a Monster Builder that is largely useless, and a VT that hasn't moved forward in more than three months, I think my complaint is a valid one. Once again, we are left paying for a rapidly declining service that shows no signs of improving. Having cancelled once and renewed due to the promises made about the VT, I feel utterly ripped off. When will WotC get its act together and start delivering what I'm paying for?
Clearly Dragon and Dungeon are subscriber content. Any D&DI subscriber has an easy way to check the current correct information, and thats the Compendium. Personally I don't see a huge need to worry about keeping compiled issues up to date so long as you point out that the compendium is the official source of up to date material.
Except that the PDFs are an offline resource (with the exception of the initial download), and the Compendium is not. They don't really equate.
Only it does because you can never be sure your version of the article you have offline is as current as the one online. So the only way to check is by being online in which case you have the Compendium.
Compiling a bunch of PDF's into one master PDF can be predominantly handled via automation/macro, if configured properly. Therefore, if the source PDF is changed (not that it needs to be), it should be rather effortless to update the compiled PDF.
Well, the fact is that Wizards made it equate. They were the ones that put the Dragon/Dungeon magazine content into DDI to begin with.
Compiling a bunch of PDF's into one master PDF can be predominantly handled via automation/macro, if configured properly.
[sarcasm]
Well hell...just get rid of the magazines entirely (who needs that nasty old fluff anyway) and add the content directly to the compendium!
[/sarcasm]
I definitely liked the days when Dragon was largely a source of inspiration for ways to play the game, not content to play the game. I remember articles about the latest gadget to make DMing easier, reviews of those gadgets, and largely fluff articles that could be injected into any game...D&D or not.
The decision to make the magazines an official outlet for new rules was a bad one.
No one is forcing anyone to use the content from the magazines in the game.
You have to make an effort not to include it when it is all there built into the Character Builder, MB and Compedium though. Particularly now since you can't set what sources you allow in the Character Builder like you could in the old one.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
I would like to remind people of a couple of things.
- Please try to stick to the topic of the thread. Thread drift is inevitable, and has happened in every single thread ever posted anywhere, and nothing that anyone can do (barring massive moderation, which is not realistic to expect) will stop it. That being said, I would appreciate it if people tried not to stray too far away (for some definition of too far) from the main topic.
- Drive-by modding is not necessary. While the desired result is no doubt sincere, the result is more than likely (unless you are awesome like WolfStar76 and myself1) to be less than effective and you also have a better than average chance of getting flamed in response.
- There will be as many opinions on topics like this as there are people. There is no right opinion, there is no wrong opinion. Everyone looks at things like this through their own sets of biases. Just because someone disagrees with you in no way means that your own opinion is any less valid.
- Remember Wheaton's Law and be nice2 to each other.
1 - (potentially not safe for your sanity)
2 - Being nice does not mean not disagreeing. It is possible to disagree and not be rude, condescending, snarky or insulting.
....WolfStar76 and myself1
OMG LOL!
I'm sure I just about got fired... too much noise in this cube... catching breath now.
Are you in the red or the blue?
Sorry, sorry, im starting to rant offtopic now, just this sort of thing really ****** me off!!!
I mean I like going through the compiled issues and reading them from time to time, just going through random articles just isnt the same, you know?
Another thing they should do is bring back themed issues, remember that? like they did back in the printed days. Have this issue focus on strikers, this issue focus on Arcane power, etc. I used to love that about Dragon, youd have a pretty good idea what youd get in that issue from the cover, those were the days.
Aaarrrgggghhhhhh!!!!
It ate my post!!!!
I just spent hours working on that, articulating exactly how I feel, and its, its just gone!!!
or no wait, I see it now.
Nevermind
The only problem I see with this (and this is speculation on my part) is that WotC seems to care about getting the corrected information into the users hands, and people who didn't recompile on occasion would have outdated information.
But the current system of not compiling issues doesn't solve that. Frex, during my sub (ran out last week
) I don't think I downloaded any more than one updated file. I didn't go back and check the articles unless I read about some major update, and I would not be surprised to find that to be the norm.My previous SOP was to use the articles as-written, but look things up in the errata document and/or the compendium to double check. Considering as that's my only option with the print stuff, I don't have much of a problem with it.
I'm a ghost. Congrats Wizards, you have rolled a 1. No resub money for you.
New CB isn't that annoying to me as I never really put the old CB on a pedestal to begin with...
VT is a beta, but it's not that clunky. It does what it needs to do rather well. There's a decently growing community of gamers, and I think once it's out of beta that community will grow. But no, it's not fully operational yet and not cause to resubscribe right now if you find the rest of DDi uncompelling.
New CB isn't that annoying to me as I never really put the old CB on a pedestal to begin with...
It's just the point that they're stripping away things we had and are giving us nothing in return. I *HAD* an up to date character builder I could use on my computer without going online. I *HAD* compiled pdf's I could download easily and read at my leisure.
The Character builder is something I could go either way on. Once they brought back the ability to export and download characters I wasn't too terribly bothered, except that in my opinion I should be able to continue to update them without getting new content as was the idea behind the original character builder. Putting it online was really just a lock in. You need to keep subscribing to use it at all.
But the Dungeon and Dragon Mag subscriptions were probably the biggest incentive for me to resubscribe since there still isn't a tabletop. And now the way I was used to reading them is no more. Sure, I can go online and read them and download individual PDF's, but honestly it's just lame and a complete waste of time. And why? Why? Why? Paying customer. Annoyed by a painful waste of time.
And I still have no virtual tabletop play as of now; nor does it seem likely the beta will be over on 5/5 when my subscription is up. So I've lost two and gained none. I'm paying to get locked into a system where my ability to consume the benefits of subscription are systematically eliminated.
You keep taking up for wizards by pointing out other things that are not related to the reason to quit, the lack of magazines, as "Not that bad" The topic on this post is about the Magazines, lets keep on topic, and getting punched in the arm every hour on the hour isnt that bad compaired to having my hand severed, but I wont pay someone 10 bucks a month to do either one.
So, while I lament the loss of the Magazines, it hasn't hurt me really. In fact, I now can download Confessions, Save My Game, and other former online-only columns, making it even better!
And for people like me, who use a Mac, the new Character Builder, the new Monster Builder, and the new Virtual Table are a HUGE step up from not having anything at all. If that means being online, so be it. Besides, wireless internet is becoming increasingly common these days. I can go anywhere on campus and have internet to my laptop; same thing in my house at home; and if I'm at a friend's house for a game, they can let me into their wireless network if necessary.
I realise some people don't have such wireless internet access, and it may be a turn-off to them, but a few upset and vocal people who unsubscribe doesn't compare with the number of people who can now subscribe and make use of the tools. They've made it cross-platform, and opened up a whole new audience, the Mac-users. And their research showed that more people do what I do – use the articles primarily – and it's cheaper that way. These are business concerns, and a few vocal people aren't going to change that. But if you really think that there are enough people who are legitimately concerned about this that it'll matter to WotC, then go ahead, continue this. Speaking is a good thing. But don't expect to be listened to, and don't feel like you have to unsubscribe in order to be part of the Call-in-Campaign. You can call in and tell them upset without threatening to leave them as a customer. If you really want the Insider content, it's probably more important than what format you get it in. But that's a decision you have to make: whether it's worth it or not to you to be a subscriber; rather than listening to the OP and unsubscribing or else they won't listen.
So, while I lament the loss of the Magazines, it hasn't hurt me really. In fact, I now can download Confessions, Save My Game, and other former online-only columns, making it even better!
Well then they should stop calling it a "magazine" and fully embrace their new ways! Make it a bunch of monthly "article" on the wizards site and not a few pages out of an imaginary magazine!
Give them subsections like "Confessions", Save my game,...
I wouldn't mind it so much if they'd just allow us to search articles in ALL the 4E back issues.
Last weekend I had to google for an hour for a listing of Adventures by level so I could find one for my group instead of MANUALLY changing the URL (can only go back so far with links) and painstakingly downloading and checking back issues just to find a freaking dungeon that fit my campaign and players' level.
And stop taking functionality away!!!! Bring back the RTF copy so I can compile my own encounters with NEW monsters dammit, let us houserule characters if we want to (easy way: show one page with every non-standard change, hard way but awesome: let a dm write a ruleset with a simple scripting system that allows us to change things)
Right now the entire DDI feels a clunky shadow of a once great idea, a shambling patchwork of incorrectly sized limbs and too many eyes, nothing fits, everything just seems to be there to piss us off just enough to never REALLY embrace the system.
I'm privately writing my own character builder because I HAVE TO...
And stop taking functionality away!!!! Bring back the RTF copy so I can compile my own encounters with NEW monsters dammit
I'd just like to clarify that you can't have something taken away until it is given to you in the first place. I feel your pain because I'd like to use Monster Vault stuff without having to manually enter it in the offline builder so I can copy to RTF and print for use at my table (more than one monter per page).
I'm privately writing my own character builder because I HAVE TO...
As am I, but WotC's builder will never do some of the fundamental system changes that am coding.
I'm privately writing my own character builder because I HAVE TO...
As am I, but WotC's builder will never do some of the fundamental system changes that am coding.
Neither will they allow mine, and since they sunk the OGL we can't even share it with others "publicly"...I'm privately writing my own character builder because I HAVE TO...
As am I, but WotC's builder will never do some of the fundamental system changes that am coding.
It depends on how close you hue to "core". At some point, if you have enough fundamental system changes, it's no longer the same game and they can crow until the cows come home, but won't have any legal standing. I may share mine at some point (when it's closer to completion), and the worst that will happen is I'll get a C&D at which point I'll just take it down.
I wouldn't mind it so much if they'd just allow us to search articles in ALL the 4E back issues.
Last weekend I had to google for an hour for a listing of Adventures by level so I could find one for my group instead of MANUALLY changing the URL (can only go back so far with links) and painstakingly downloading and checking back issues just to find a freaking dungeon that fit my campaign and players' level.
Really? You don't have the D&D Insider Wiki bookmarked yet? Or you didn't think to look there?
Really? You don't have the D&D Insider Wiki bookmarked yet? Or you didn't think to look there?
There's no direct link or any information towards it. I assume this is again a community effort.
Something that, if Wizards'd actually embraced "digital distribution" instead of seeing it as a way to get mo'money, should've been implemented from the get-go. A simple goddamn search function!
And thanks for the tip! Bookmarked now! (The wiki seems to have lots of info, but again hard to get to
)if Wizards'd actually embraced "digital distribution" instead of seeing it as a way to get mo'money
This sentence doesn't make any sense but I bet it feels good to call Wizards of the coast 'money grubbing'!
if Wizards'd actually embraced "digital distribution" instead of seeing it as a way to get mo'money
This sentence doesn't make any sense but I bet it feels good to call Wizards of the coast 'money grubbing'!
Yeah, some people just aren't very good at hugs.