And on top of that - I ran into another issue. I noticed that some monsters had the same of a certain stat, but most of them have different gains from them (ex. Str 20 (+12) / Str 20 (+3).
So not only is there no actual way to figure out what a monsters attribute points should be, but apparently, those points don't even matter!? Most of the premade monsters in the monster manual looks like the developers just came up with random numbers and shoved them in.
Then I thought to myself... What's the Point???? Can't I just look at a monster in the manual that's level 2 and then base my level 2 Battlebriar's stats on that so that it will be balenced for a level 2 group?
That would basically fix my problem, but I absolutely HAD to come on here and ask. Because I got REALLY annoyed with the fact that the developers don't even bother explaining how these stats work, and making the ability points seem 100% arbitrary even though apparently every monster in the monster manual is balenced perfectly using some kind of magical system that no one knows about.
Edit: There's still 1 problem. Like i said some monsters in the book have the same of a stat (ex. 20 str) but have different modifiers to them... like one monster will get +6 from their 20 str while another gets like +18 or somthing. What's up with that?
Other defenses: Level +12 (to any monster type on page 184 of DM's Guide)
If you look at -ANY- monster in the monster manual, you will see that their defenses are not all their level +12. *Not even with their ability modifier* (which btw as said above, none of the monster ability modifiers make any sense anyways)
Good news: Monster ability scores are utterly irrelevant and assigned effectively at random. You can make them match up with the monster's relevant stats if you want, but doing so is a waste of effort.
The only time you would ever care in the slightest about one would be if the monster needed to make a jump check.
Hmmmm. Thanks. That's good to know. I never paid any attention to this. But I wrote my monster importer to just import the stats, to calculate the bonuses as needed. Now I have a stitch of code to append to that parser.
Thank you SOOO much for confirming this.
Edit: There's still 1 problem. Like i said some monsters in the book have the same of a stat (ex. 20 str) but have different modifiers to them... like one monster will get +6 from their 20 str while another gets like +18 or somthing. What's up with that?
Monster stat modifiers include 1/2 level (base skill check). If you remove 1/2 level your modifiers should normalize. The reason this is true is that monsters don't need actual stat modifiers for anything other than skills. Their damage expressions are all worked out in their powers, so at that point the actual (plain) stat mod is irrelevant.
So I'm trying to basically rescale a monster (Warthorn Battlebriar) to level 2, and it was easy to get the defenses, but then I tried to get the health. I ran in to a problem. The health for a controller is based on [ 8+con+(level+8) ]. How are you supposed to formulate ability scores for a monster? The DM Guide literally gives you NOTHING on how to distribute ability points for monsters.
And on top of that - I ran into another issue. I noticed that some monsters had the same of a certain stat, but most of them have different gains from them (ex. Str 20 (+12) / Str 20 (+3).
So not only is there no actual way to figure out what a monsters attribute points should be, but apparently, those points don't even matter!? Most of the premade monsters in the monster manual looks like the developers just came up with random numbers and shoved them in.
I've seen a bunch of replies to this, none of which mention the obvious point that my copy of the DMG says that the higher of each ability pair for a monster should average arround 13+level/2, except for it's main attack ability which should be about 3 points higher.
So there is guidance as to ability scores and you can apply it fairly easily. The offline monster builder and online slider will both change ability scores by half the level change. This is not random, and it is in the DMG.
As others have mentioned, the ability number is the ability check or default skill check bonus. Or in other words, that bonus is figured the EXACT SAME WAY as the check bonus you should have on EVERY PC's character sheat near EVERY ability score.
You can and should just make up appropriate abilities, but there are definitely guidelines as to how to do so and rules as to where the modifiers come from.
In the CBC, Abilities affect stats (and yes, that is slightly annoying). Just adjust the relevant values to what you want and ignore them completely.
In the 4e mindset, monster abilities are what you want them to be, don't need to scale with level, and, in general, don't affect anything and thus, the crux of the thing : they don't matter.
Which is (IMO) as it should be. Let us not go back to the DM hell that was 3.x.
Please ?
Caveat : I guess, if you were to be a stickler for rules, you'd need Strength for bull rush attacks. But that would just mean that past the first levels, bull rush attacks will always fail...
Monster stats are rather easy to do. Decide which stats should be high, and set those to 13 plus half level. Decide which stat the monster's attacks are based on, and set that to 16 plus half level (and generally let that attack stat point you in the direction of a high defense).
Bull Rush attacks also fail because the math doesn't include the enhancement bonus to attack in the math without spending a feat. Monsters can bull rush just fine, because their attack bonuses scale nicely.
I'd argue that skill modifiers are also exactly as you want them to be. There is no need for set monster ability scores. But, I practically get hives when something even remotely resembles 3.x (on the DM side only) - so anything to do with skills or capabilities being directly tied to ability scores for monsters is a straight no-go for me.
I just have nightmares of all those "assign x number of feats, but you can give them bonus feats if you want to; skill score is y, but you can modify it with bonuses, feats, etc." Just have the damn thing be what you want it to be : there's not going to be a quiz on how you got that number for your monster! *pull hair out*
But that is really just my reaction - if you want the more "linked" aspect, more power to you friend.
It is also important to note that in the DMG, monster Non-Armor Class Defenses are supposed to be adjusted up or down by one point for every two points above or below the average (13 + 1/2 level) of the higher in each stat pair. Thus, if you have a Level 6 monster and assign it a Dex of 18, its Reflex Defense should increase by one point (because the average Reflex is 16 for a Level 6 monster). This is why monsters have a slight variance in their defenses, particularly the one governed by whatever their primary attack stat is.
Do we know for sure whether this is still used in the post-MM3 world?
(If I look at some guidance I have from writing for DDI, I don't see any link between ability scores and defenses. I'm guessing that this has been dropped and defenses are really just set by role and level. I could be wrong, but that's what I am seeing.)
Do we know for sure whether this is still used in the post-MM3 world?
(If I look at some guidance I have from writing for DDI, I don't see any link between ability scores and defenses. I'm guessing that this has been dropped and defenses are really just set by role and level. I could be wrong, but that's what I am seeing.)
I don't know ANYTHING for sure. I'm just a poor schlub going by what's in the books. :-)
Buuuuttttt...
It was never actually removed, overuled, or eratted, to my knowledge. So it should still be in there. And the offline MB (which was updated to post MM3 stats) does modify defenses if you change the ability scores. And, without it, every monster's three Non-AC defenses would be the same (12+Level). Published monsters do show variance across the NADs (which is good, otherwise there would be no reason to even have three NADs). Published monsters (by eyeball) also seem to have some logical connection between the ability scores and the NADs (a creature with a lower Will has lower Cha/Wis too, for the most part). That's not definitive, but it is noticeable.
All of that being said, I kind of like it. Given the primary attack stat tends to follow the monster role or monster theme (eg: dexterity for an archer artillery, charisma or intelligence or wisdom for a spellcasty artillery; dexterity for a skirmisher, constitution or strength for a brute), and the primary attack stat will (based on the DM rules) automatically push up the associated NAD by a point or two; following this rule actually lends a little consistency between defenses, role, attacks, skills, and flavor. I know monster skills and ability scores come up rarely, but, what can I say, I'm a sucker for consistency. So even if the rule-of-thumb was erased from existence, I'd still call it a keeper. Its as good a method as any for introducing variance into NADs.
A compromise position: A checkbox on the tool could let you select whether you want to have the ability scores adjust defenses and the like. My guess is that few people would use it, however.
MM2-onward stopped doing that. NADs still get tweaked a bit by hand based on the theme (which includes the creature's ability scores), but they don't scale directly based on those ability scores.
I'm not sure how the new version of the online builder is handling it, but last I used it, the offline one would typically bump one or two NADs up or down by a single point based on the ability scores (or at least partly based on them - it also seemed to look at the low/average/high/very high pulldowns to some degree), but it certainly wasn't doing MM1-style scaling.
Well, I will still fall back on the position that the erratta hasn't removed it. So, if we really want to have a RAW throw down, I'll stand by my claim. But that's kind of silly anyway and I don't do RAW throw downs. After all, we all seem to agree to vary the defenses somehow. Its just down to methodology.
Although the online MB follows the 13+1/2 level for an ability score leads to no variance in defenses, it is really weird when you start fiddling. It does adjust defenses by ability scores, but it seems to have no pattern or rule I can determine. When building a 1st level skimirmisher, for example, the first point of Dex above 13 bumped Reflex, and then two points later, it bumped again. Fortitude seemed to take an extra point in Strength to get it to bump. Will was sluggish and took several points to bump at all. Its doing something... but gods know what it is.
Also, there is an interesting display problem that comes up once in a while. When you start a new creature, it sets its ability scores to 10 (except its guess at a primary attack stat) which goes to 16. Fine and dandy. I won't complain that the average is supposed to be 13+1/2 level or 16+1/2 level. But the display of the stat block in progress puts the 16 in the wrong stat (often Strength, no matter what). If you fiddle with the ability scores in the last step of building the monster, the display corrects itself. But it made testing this out confusing as hell.