D&D Insider Subscriber,
We will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. We plan to update the Character Builder in early October with changes to support Dark Sun and the Essentials. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,
The D&DI Team
Any chance for releasing an update with just the new stuff from Psionic Power? I'm in a campaign where we were planning on trying some new, high-level psionic PCs for two games starting on the 23rd. So this would be a big boon for us.
Ah, well.
You don't have it all finished - fine, update what you have and put the rest into the next update. You don't have to delay it all.
Heck you haven't even put in everything from all the older books. There's still information there that needs to be finished (like the religions from Forgotten Realms).
D&D Insider Subscriber,
We will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. We plan to update the Character Builder in early October with changes to support Dark Sun and the Essentials. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,
The D&DI Team
Will you be offering a rebate or discount of some sort for the month of September? As it stands, I'm paying full price for diminished functionality.
I suggest not making any promises until you can be sure. Obviously, you weren't in the position to promise the earlier date of 21st of September. Instead, better communicate at the end of August the update has been delayed, and possibly cancelled, and further information will be provided when available.
My year's subscription to DDi expires on October 5th. If I actually want the update that I should have received at the start of this month, I am now (effectively) forced to pay for another year. To be honest, if it were not for the fact that I do want the new Dark Sun and Psionic Power content in the CB, I wouldn't even think twice about this - I'd turn off auto-renew and never look back. But the timing of this delay means I can't do that without effectively losing the update I have already paid for. This feels like I am being forced to reward WotC for poor customer service, and that offends and angers me.
It also saddens me because, up to now, I have been an ardent supporter of DDi and what appeared to be WotC's genuine desire to make it work, despite the many problems. It has recently become apparent that WotC has either lost interest in DDi or just doesn't know how to make it work. Perhaps I'm wrong and there have merely been a series of unfortunate (and perhaps unforseeable) problems lately, but it very much looks as though the DDi team is either badly understaffed/under-resourced and overworked (and hence unable to meet deadlines), or is just incompetent.
Before I make a final decision, I wish to know: what procedures is WotC putting in place to ensure this does not happen again?
It would also be nice to know the reasons for this delay, though that's obviously not as important as whether it's likely to happen again. A bit of openness and honesty is probably the only thing that can win me back as a DDi customer at this point.
ETA: Oh, another thing. Apparently, notice of this delay was supposed to be in an email sent to all subscribers. Well, you somehow didn't manage to send it to me. I only found out about this because someone mentioned it in the Dark Sun forum and linked to this thread. I got the "your subscription is due for renewal" email just fine, though. Funny how that works, eh?
[edit] I didn't get the e-mail about the delay, either, despite being a DDI subscriber for almost two years. Even more pathetic.
Not pleased about this. I don't even care about the dungeon and dragon magazine content (especially the junk from this month) I only pay for DDI for the CB... which will not be updated. Seems pricey now considering this month I got nothing.
and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.Sincerely,
The D&DI Team
That's okay I'm planning on running a Dark Heresy campaign rather than Dark Sun one (which they expected), due to the delay and then cancellation of the update. It's only one word change so I'm hoping they won't notice the difference.
Seems I can do without the DDI I've already cancelled the autorenew on my subscription.
Edit: For those saying they didn't get the email, I just checked an hotmail's spam filter blocked my email from Wizards.
Will we be getting an extra month of credit on our subscriptions for your lack of planning?
Same question here. That seems like a fair compromise.
My subscription also runs out Oct. 5; so really, my subscription effectively ended this month?
Joe
So basically we are getting screwed out of one of the monthly features we are paying for. And if memory serves me this isn't the first time we have missed out on an update.
You don't have it all finished - fine, update what you have and put the rest into the next update. You don't have to delay it all.
Heck you haven't even put in everything from all the older books. There's still information there that needs to be finished (like the religions from Forgotten Realms).
If you, or anyone else reading this, feels strongly, you can contact Customer Service and let them know. Other people have been given refunds for the month, and you may have similar luck.
Regarding those of you who did not get an email, this was the first time that they have tried to do such a massive mass email through this system, and it ended up choking and many of the emails were lost or delayed significantly. Please be sure to check your spam folders as well. I'm not sure what they've done to correct this issue in the future, but thats what happened this time.
If you, or anyone else reading this, feels strongly, you can contact Customer Service and let them know. Other people have been given refunds for the month, and you may have similar luck.
Regarding those of you who did not get an email, this was the first time that they have tried to do such a massive mass email through this system, and it ended up choking and many of the emails were lost or delayed significantly. Please be sure to check your spam folders as well. I'm not sure what they've done to correct this issue in the future, but thats what happened this time.
I just re-contacted them. We'll see what happens (and I was one of the people who never got the inital e-mail, and it wasn't in my spam folder).
You shouldn't have to complain to get a refund, however if people that are complaining are getting a refund that should mean everyone gets a refund. It's bad customer service in my opinion if they don't.
You shouldn't have to complain to get a refund, however if people that are complaining are getting a refund that should mean everyone gets a refund. It's bad customer service in my opinion if they don't.
This is how every business works. If you go to a movie, and the sound quality is bad, but you don't complain. No refund. For me, I went up to customer service and said, "Hey! That movie had bad sound." And guess what? They gave me two vouchers for another movie. They're not going to decide at that point, "Well, I guess we should track down everyone else who saw that movie and give them free tickets too."
Email CS if you have a complaint.
Folks, let's keep the posts polite, respectful, and on-topic.
Apologies.
Complaining to corporate America is like a gnat thinking it has a chance of making an elephant change direction by biting it in the _ _ _. The only thing they understand is money. Once the monthly subscriptions fall to an unacceptable level some corporate bean counter will call up a CEO and sound the warning klaxon. At first they will try the layoff routine but, as the subscriptions continue to fall off then and only then will change be made to rectify what most other business already know or have learned.
I have enjoyed the game since the late 70s and my son (12) is taking an interest since I started bringing him to the encounter sessions. But I cannot continue to be responsible for enabling, by my subscription fees, a company to continue treating its bread and butter like they do. I can understand about the LATE applications they promised so LONG ago but to just up and fail on the CB update without an offer to compensate. Unacceptable IMHO. And not the first time as we all know, so the implications of not offering recompense is known. I have to agree with carnasus' statement and they should offer some sort of compensation. Here is an idea; extend my sub a month that is soft money and not cold hard cash out of their pocket, sounds like a win win to me.
This is pretty pathetic, DDI Team. I work in the publishing industry and have for years. I'm my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time. Clearly the same philosophy doesn't hold true at WotC. Consider me highly disappointed (not that you care about a single voice, but whatever).
[edit] I didn't get the e-mail about the delay, either, despite being a DDI subscriber for almost two years. Even more pathetic.
Man, you have absolutely no idea how offensive I find your post as a programmer/developer. If we were working together on a shared project and you came to my desk with that smug "In my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time" attitude, you would find yourself on your a** so fast you would swear that the earth just dropped 5 ft.
Programming isn't like publishing in that when there are changes to be made you can just edit, delete or insert text or images. It's alot like being an architect, engineer and construction worker on a never ending building in the case of something like the CB. I dare you to take your attitude over to a half finished building and tell them how easy it should be "to keep it on time" by working extra hours to add another elevator shaft to the design now. Oh and please be sure and mention how doable it is in the publishing industry, I'm sure they'll appreciate your expertise.
Every once and a while I have the pleasure of hearing from some marketing genius how easy it should to add this "new feature" that he's dreamt up. That's when I usually start playing a game I call "How will your new feature handle these situations?", they will usually be able answer a couple of them but most answers will be something akin to "I don't know, I didn't think of that." I then say that it may not be as easy as they originally thought. To which they reply with "yeah but I've already promised this to a certain client but Y date". Aren't I the fortunate one to have all this help?
Another favorite I hear once and awhile is "Shouldn't you have accounted for that in the design X months/years ago in the first place?" to which I usually reply "Well, when we were gathering the design specifications from you in the first place, why didn't you mention this contingency then?
But hey what do I know because I'm just a lazy programmer not a publisher.
This is pretty pathetic, DDI Team. I work in the publishing industry and have for years. I'm my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time. Clearly the same philosophy doesn't hold true at WotC. Consider me highly disappointed (not that you care about a single voice, but whatever).
[edit] I didn't get the e-mail about the delay, either, despite being a DDI subscriber for almost two years. Even more pathetic.
Man, you have absolutely no idea how offensive I find your post as a programmer/developer. If we were working together on a shared project and you came to my desk with that smug "In my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time" attitude, you would find yourself on your a** so fast you would swear that the earth just dropped 5 ft.
Programming isn't like publishing in that when there are changes to be made you can just edit, delete or insert text or images. It's alot like being an architect, engineer and construction worker on a never ending building in the case of something like the CB. I dare you to take your attitude over to a half finished building and tell them how easy it should be "to keep it on time" by working extra hours to add another elevator shaft to the design now. Oh and please be sure and mention how doable it is in the publishing industry, I'm sure they'll appreciate your expertise.
Every once and a while I have the pleasure of hearing from some marketing genius how easy it should to add this "new feature" that he's dreamt up. That's when I usually start playing a game I call "How will your new feature handle these situations?", they will usually be able answer a couple of them but most answers will be something akin to "I don't know, I didn't think of that." I then say that it may not be as easy as they originally thought. To which they reply with "yeah but I've already promised this to a certain client but Y date". Aren't I the fortunate one to have all this help?
Another favorite I hear once and awhile is "Shouldn't you have accounted for that in the design X months/years ago in the first place?" to which I usually reply "Well, when we were gathering the design specifications from you in the first place, why didn't you mention this contingency then?
But hey what do I know because I'm just a lazy programmer not a publisher.
Agree with you my brother, fellow programmer
You shouldn't have to complain to get a refund, however if people that are complaining are getting a refund that should mean everyone gets a refund. It's bad customer service in my opinion if they don't.
This is how every business works. If you go to a movie, and the sound quality is bad, but you don't complain. No refund. For me, I went up to customer service and said, "Hey! That movie had bad sound." And guess what? They gave me two vouchers for another movie. They're not going to decide at that point, "Well, I guess we should track down everyone else who saw that movie and give them free tickets too."
Email CS if you have a complaint.
If World of Warcraft has extended technical problems, Blizzard tacks some time on to the end of my subscription without me asking. If the auto-renew feature on DDI knows when to charge my account, I'm sure somebody could tell it to tack an extra month on to my subscription, too.
This is pretty pathetic, DDI Team. I work in the publishing industry and have for years. I'm my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time. Clearly the same philosophy doesn't hold true at WotC. Consider me highly disappointed (not that you care about a single voice, but whatever).
[edit] I didn't get the e-mail about the delay, either, despite being a DDI subscriber for almost two years. Even more pathetic.
Man, you have absolutely no idea how offensive I find your post as a programmer/developer. If we were working together on a shared project and you came to my desk with that smug "In my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time" attitude, you would find yourself on your a** so fast you would swear that the earth just dropped 5 ft.
Programming isn't like publishing in that when there are changes to be made you can just edit, delete or insert text or images. It's alot like being an architect, engineer and construction worker on a never ending building in the case of something like the CB. I dare you to take your attitude over to a half finished building and tell them how easy it should be "to keep it on time" by working extra hours to add another elevator shaft to the design now. Oh and please be sure and mention how doable it is in the publishing industry, I'm sure they'll appreciate your expertise.
Every once and a while I have the pleasure of hearing from some marketing genius how easy it should to add this "new feature" that he's dreamt up. That's when I usually start playing a game I call "How will your new feature handle these situations?", they will usually be able answer a couple of them but most answers will be something akin to "I don't know, I didn't think of that." I then say that it may not be as easy as they originally thought. To which they reply with "yeah but I've already promised this to a certain client but Y date". Aren't I the fortunate one to have all this help?
Another favorite I hear once and awhile is "Shouldn't you have accounted for that in the design X months/years ago in the first place?" to which I usually reply "Well, when we were gathering the design specifications from you in the first place, why didn't you mention this contingency then?
But hey what do I know because I'm just a lazy programmer not a publisher.
Agree with you my brother, fellow programmer
And it is programmer attitudes like this that make companies hire workers in third world countries for 1/3 the pay. I suppose they must be hungrier! I guess it is different in my network/systems world. When the client comes up with a new "feature" for a network design it sure would be nice to have the same attitude I see you two subscribe to. I and my coworkers, on the other hand, suck it up and do what they request and within the time constraints originally promised. No excuses, oh and yes that usually means I have to work more then 8 hours a day or 5 days a week. I am a bit astounded to see people admit they "play games" 
at work rather then working to offer a solution. I guess my age is showing I have always worked to succeed not "game" so others look bad or fail.
But thanks for the insight, I guess what you admit to doing could be a plausible excuse for what happened with the latest CB update.
You shouldn't have to complain to get a refund, however if people that are complaining are getting a refund that should mean everyone gets a refund. It's bad customer service in my opinion if they don't.
This is how every business works. If you go to a movie, and the sound quality is bad, but you don't complain. No refund. For me, I went up to customer service and said, "Hey! That movie had bad sound." And guess what? They gave me two vouchers for another movie. They're not going to decide at that point, "Well, I guess we should track down everyone else who saw that movie and give them free tickets too."
Email CS if you have a complaint.
If World of Warcraft has extended technical problems, Blizzard tacks some time on to the end of my subscription without me asking. If the auto-renew feature on DDI knows when to charge my account, I'm sure somebody could tell it to tack an extra month on to my subscription, too.
Not the same thing. When WOW is down you are not able to play the game at all, I can understand that. We all have still be able to use the CB and other items from DDI
And it is programmer attitudes like this that make companies hire workers in third world countries for 1/3 the pay. I suppose they must be hungrier!
You too will be replaced when someone will do your job for bottom dollar with only an "acceptable" drop-off in quality.
I guess it is different in my network/systems world.
It is. Having done both myself, there is no comparison with respect to complexity when it comes to putting together a non-trivial network vs. writing a non-trivial computer program. It's not even close. Thanks for accusing American programmers of being lazy, though.
With respect to the original guy complaining about how publishers work versus how he thinks programmers work, maybe it's the author/editor's fault: they spent too much time f'ing around and had to pull all-nighters, then handed off the Psionic Power and Essentials material to the software development team at the last possible moment with the expectation that last second heroics will somehow save the day. That would be entirely consistent with my experience, where non-programmer content producers expect the programmers to "make the magic happen" with very little understanding that there is no magic. This seems particularly likely since the Essentials material is such a profound structural break from the existing game, and that break will take a lot of work to materialize in the CB without being a brittle hack.
Unless you'd rather just have a brittle hack for the bottom dollar price?
You too will be replaced when someone will do your job for bottom dollar with only an "acceptable" drop-off in quality.
Maybe, has not happened yet in the 15+ years of my career. But there is always a first time.
It is. Having done both myself, there is no comparison with respect to complexity when it comes to putting together a non-trivial network vs. writing a non-trivial computer program. It's not even close.
Yawn ... not gonna get into an epennie size contest....
Thanks for accusing American programmers of being lazy, though.
No apologies here, but reread it. I was just pointing out their attitude towards work. I made no assumptions, it was all there for everyone to read. Did you see the part about "play game..."? Maybe not, try again.
Unless you'd rather just have a brittle hack for the bottom dollar price?
Pretty much what we are getting now, right? Just a small example but can someone explain to me why when you equip a large shield it gives you a +4 AC shield bonus but then adds a -2 misc bonus? It all works out to being the proper AC but really!!! There are other examples and I do not have the time or inclination to point them out, go read other forum posts. Seems like a "brittle hack" to me. IMHO
It is. Having done both myself, there is no comparison with respect to complexity when it comes to putting together a non-trivial network vs. writing a non-trivial computer program. It's not even close.Yawn ... not gonna get into an epennie size contest....
I'm not measuring anyone's junk here. I'm simply pointing out that you lack the perspective to understand the complexity of software development beyond the trivial level. Since I have done both things, I have the experience to point out that things are indeed different than in the network/systems world.
Thanks for accusing American programmers of being lazy, though.No apologies here, but reread it. I was just pointing out their attitude towards work. I made no assumptions, it was all there for everyone to read. Did you see the part about "play game..."? Maybe not, try again.
The attitude isn't one of laziness or a lack of hunger. Rather, it is an extreme frustration with people who make assumptions about the complexity of some change to a piece of software. If you have never done software development professionally, you really have no perspective on what this is like. Your argument about "playing games" seems to be a bit of a non sequitur, since none of the posters you quote mention anything about playing games. Unless, of course, you refer to JabbaVonHutt's frustration with ignorant marketing slime signing checks with their mouths that their rears can't cash.
Let me explain this in terms you might understand: it's as if a client of yours has demanded some entirely unbudgeted change to your network system, only you have no idea ahead of time how much it is going to cost you in either equipment or manpower. That's the beauty (seriously!) of computer programming. If you've never done some thing X before, and X is non-trivial, you have no idea at the start how hard it will be or if it is even possible.
Is knuckling down and working longer hours going to fix this problem? It might. Believe me, no one in the software industry works eight hour days. Just look at the widely publicized issues at EA where they burn up families and careers so you and your kids can play a new version of Madden every Fall. But some times there simply aren't enough days left to implement and test on time. Every single feature change of the nature described by JabbaVonHutt is like this, and feature changes happen like this all the time.
Merely working harder does not solve this problem if there simply isn't enough time left to add the new feature. If it's a chronic issue, then you burn out your programmers and no one is happy. Adding more programmers doesn't fix the problem either, since you have to get them all up to speed on a big program that grows larger every day. Furthermore, the very people tasked with getting the new people up to speed are your already overburdened programmers.
There is no laziness here. Jobs don't get outsourced because people are lazy. They get outsourced because people will do those jobs for much less money in third world countries and the reduction in quality is acceptable to the bean counters, the management, and the stock holders. I'm not saying outsourcing is good or bad, only that it has nothing to do with lazy programmers or playing games as you have so clearly stated.
Unless you'd rather just have a brittle hack for the bottom dollar price?Pretty much what we are getting now, right? Just a small example but can someone explain to me why when you equip a large shield it gives you a +4 AC shield bonus but then adds a -2 misc bonus? It all works out to being the proper AC but really!!! There are other examples and I do not have the time or inclination to point them out, go read other forum posts. Seems like a "brittle hack" to me. IMHO
Heh. A brittle hack ...
- only works with one kind of printer
- only works on one version of the operating system at one patch level
- or only works in Internet Explorer 6
- has an out-of-control resource leak that mandates frequent restarts
- has a particular set of valid inputs, others cause crashes
- etc.
CB and MB aren't perfect. They're not even great. But they're not brittle hacks. The demo game table and character visualizer that people saw but never materialized? Those were brittle hacks. The amateurish Flash doohickeys for creating monsters and encounters? Those were brittle hacks. In my opinion, the only thing that might be considered a brittle hack about CB is the hideous workaround necessary for printing to PDF. On the other hand, that use is an infrequent corner case, so I'll give the developers a pass on that one. After all, there are more important issues on which they should be working.
With respect to the current problem, Essentials introduces major structural changes to the way that classes are treated in 4e. This goes far, far beyond any previous change including those changes introduced with Psionic and Hybrid classes. Whereas before each class had a selection of some static set of features followed by the standard A-W/E/D power structure, now you have essentially five new classes each of which is its own special little snowflake over the entire thirty level progression. Furthermore, now these new classes have to be presented in a way that makes sense alongside the existing 4e material. Once this stuff is implemented, we are not even close to a release since all this extra functionality has to be tested in conjunction with all previous content. This too is a non-trivial task and one often overlooked by people who don't do software development or software testing. The final problem is that the software engineers and software developers can't even start working until the creative people are done. This means that the programmer's time is now constrained by the creative completion on one end and the final deadline on the other. Something has got to give.
I'm guessing here that this new functionality requires major structural changes to the CB for which we have no perspective or understanding. Sure, they could have planned for this expansion when they were writing the CB 2+ years ago, but without the foresight to see Essentials and it's nature, it would have been wasted effort at the time. We can fault Wizards for failing to come up with the update on-time, but we cannot lay the blame at the feet of the programmers without knowing the whole story.
To do otherwise is an injustice.
To call American programmers lazy and blame them for outsourcing is a greater injustice.
Not pleased about this. I don't even care about the dungeon and dragon magazine content (especially the junk from this month) I only pay for DDI for the CB... which will not be updated. Seems pricey now considering this month I got nothing.
Uh, haven't you read the EULA? You are required to uninstall the CB if you stop paying. So you did get something. You got to use the CB, which you said you were paying for.
Not pleased about this. I don't even care about the dungeon and dragon magazine content (especially the junk from this month) I only pay for DDI for the CB... which will not be updated. Seems pricey now considering this month I got nothing.
Uh, haven't you read the EULA? You are required to uninstall the CB if you stop paying. So you did get something. You got to use the CB, which you said you were paying for.
You are not required to uninstall the CB if you decide to end your subscription.
Not pleased about this. I don't even care about the dungeon and dragon magazine content (especially the junk from this month) I only pay for DDI for the CB... which will not be updated. Seems pricey now considering this month I got nothing.
Uh, haven't you read the EULA? You are required to uninstall the CB if you stop paying. So you did get something. You got to use the CB, which you said you were paying for.
You are not required to uninstall the CB if you decide to end your subscription.
Hmm, someone said so in another thread, so I assumed it was true.
I'm simply pointing out that you lack the perspective to understand the complexity of software development beyond the trivial level. Since I have done both things, I have the experience to point out that things are indeed different than in the network/systems world.
And, as with most assumptions, you are wrong. I work with many developers and have a few as friends. I have not worked with code since my graduation from DeVry but I understand it. Just not my cup of tea.
Your argument about "playing games" seems to be a bit of a non sequitur, since none of the posters you quote mention anything about playing games. Unless, of course, you refer to JabbaVonHutt's frustration with ignorant marketing slime signing checks with their mouths that their rears can't cash.
He used the word game, my definition may not be the same as yours. I just never used that term when it comes to my work, nor have I heard it used by the Dev folks I work with. Everyone gets frustrated at work, but not everyone "games". From your defense maybe you do, I am not your employer so I do not care.
Let me explain this in terms you might understand: it's as if a client of yours has demanded some entirely unbudgeted change to your network system, only you have no idea ahead of time how much it is going to cost you in either equipment or manpower. That's the beauty (seriously!) of computer programming. If you've never done some thing X before, and X is non-trivial, you have no idea at the start how hard it will be or if it is even possible.
Just gonna slide this under you made another incorrect assumption since you have no idea what I do, where I work etc.... And we are talking about an update to a program, not a total rewrite?
Believe me, no one in the software industry works eight hour days.
I know a couple, just an FYI to correct this overly broad and general statement. I only work 8 hour days unless something major or unexpected comes up.
Heh. A brittle hack ...
- only works with one kind of printer
- only works on one version of the operating system at one patch level
- or only works in Internet Explorer 6
- has an out-of-control resource leak that mandates frequent restarts
- has a particular set of valid inputs, others cause crashes
- etc.
CB and MB aren't perfect. They're not even great. But they're not brittle hacks.
And that is your opinion, mine is a simple thing like the shield AC whacked out falls under that category.
With respect to the current problem, Essentials introduces major structural changes to the way that classes are treated in 4e.
No one is asking for the Essentials, how about they just put out what came out in August. Essentials release could have come out in October. I can buy the hardbound book 11 days, from a Premier store, before its official release. I can only speculate when the information gets to the Dev folks for the CB update. Say a month??? So in all that time they could not release the August book material? Bad planning on their part.
We can fault Wizards for failing to come up with the update on-time, but we cannot lay the blame at the feet of the programmers without knowing the whole story.
To do otherwise is an injustice.To call American programmers lazy and blame them for outsourcing is a greater injustice.
May I suggest you get your programmer panties unbundled, I made no condemnation of all programmers. I said it was a plausible excuse not THE reason. This is about how WotC is handling the whole thing. I liken it to a child that stuffs their fist in their mouth and cries when they cannot get it out. WotC's decision on this was to possible "stuff their fist in their mouth" and it turned out to be more then they expected. This is about poor management, from the top down, as well as deplorable customer service.
As far as I am concerned the Essentials stuff is so spoon fed built it does not need the CB to build it. Just follow the programmed build, that may be what they were shooting for but it is a bit over simplified for those of us that have been playing for some time.
With respect to the original guy complaining about how publishers work versus how he thinks programmers work, maybe it's the author/editor's fault: they spent too much time f'ing around and had to pull all-nighters, then handed off the Psionic Power and Essentials material to the software development team at the last possible moment with the expectation that last second heroics will somehow save the day. That would be entirely consistent with my experience, where non-programmer content producers expect the programmers to "make the magic happen" with very little understanding that there is no magic.
I blame Star Trek. Between Scotty and LaForge constantly saying they need 48 hours yet always pulling through and getting it done in 1 hour, people think that the techies can always do that.
Damn you, Montgomery Scott! Your abysmal failures to accurately assess the time required for your projects have made everyone's life harder for decades.
Maybe the WotC team isn't doing it right? Maybe they should start claiming it will take 2 years for each update, and when it only takes a month, they will be heroes?
Underpromise and overdeliver.
Also, I'm always amused at people disparaging the character of folks they have never met based on no information but their own frustration. Nobody here knows why it is late. Nobody here knows how hard the folks at WotC are working on this. Nobody here knows what issues they are running into. Nobody here knows if creative or marketing made promises without consulting them. So, honestly, everyone inclined to speculate on these matters should keep it to themselves. Unless, of course, they work for Wizards and are in the loop.
I do wonder if people would prefer that they push out the release schedule a month or more so that the data update for CB is ready when the book is on the shelf? Because they can't program it into CB until it is done being written, so it isn't like they can start sooner.
Normally, I'd agree with you, except that it's done being written about three or four months prior to hitting the shelves. At least, that's how they describe the production process.
The argument about how hard it is to develop and code or how long they work doesn't matter. WOTC promised its paying customers an update after almost a month long delay and didn't deliver. That's it. They are in the wrong and should make it better for their loyal customers. Heck we don't even get a new deadline just a vague "pushed to october" non promise.
We don't need excuses or apologies WOTC. We just want what you promise (and what we pay for) on a regular and timely basis and if you can't do it make it up to us without us having to resort to being the first one to reach out.
one quick way to P-off what support u have, unhappy here in the UK
OK, I feel compelled to weigh in on this with several points.
My history began with the Red Box, no the other one when an Elf was both your race and your class. I have had the pleasure of RPGs being my hobby for more than 22 years and chief among them D&D.
D&D has a long and littered road through the valley of its software failures. Including but not limited to cumbersome and problematic 2nd edition software, 3rd edition Fluid character program that finally had to be handed off to another company to fix (codemonkeys anyone…) for 3.5?
I signed up for DDI day 1 and have never looked back! In fact I have often commented that the content online is very good, frequent and diverse. Having originally been very sad about the cancelation of Dungeon Magazine & Dragon Magazine print versions, my faith was renewed with many months of great content and advance information.
Now let’s move on to the character builder and to a lesser degree the monster builder. In my opinion this is the best character software that Wizards/TSR has ever released. Was it rough when first released, yes! Have they updated it and made it better? Yes! I can now generate characters faster than ever before in any edition (except maybe basic). Hmm maybe a race between basic D&D one page sheet and the 4th edition character builder. Oh did I mention as a GM how great the online compendium is, my goodness, never before, have we had the type of pure data at our gaming fingertips. My group was just recapping at how good of a job Wizards have done updating their new books each month in both the software programs and online.
Are the errors? Yes but not crippling for me and my group. Are there functions I would like to have? Yes but they will come. Would I like to have 4 choices of characters sheets vs. the stock sheet? Yes it is a willing trade-off for now. I am also very disappointed that we do not have an update in September as I am using Dark Sun and the Essentials but I was not even a bit surprised with the amount of products released in addition to the new rules and changes (themes, Essentials, etc…).
Now the key, it is always about money, I agree. However the monthly subscription is not completely based on the character builder, monster builder and compendium data. You also have access to the online Dungeon Magazine, online Dragon Magazine, and other minor tools (I agree those other tools are not much use). So if you divide your monthly fee across several items we would not be talking about a full monthly fee. Now what portion of this monthly fee accounts for the software, oh wait maybe a part of it accounts for the continued usage of the current functioning version. So what portion accounts for just the update of new date in this month? Maybe Wizards has an assumed amount of the monthly fee towards development/R&D, etc. Let’s just speculate that they owe us a dollar or two. Now I agree they own us this and I think we should all go after these couple of dollars. Or may I will spend time to draft this reply and then read my new rules compendium.
I will also point out that for the next couple of weeks I will continue to enforce the rules for my game that the characters may only select items currently in the character builder, let’s be honest just makes it easier for now. Guess what, our group still levels up, fight the good fight, disagrees on how to distribute party treasure, fights to the last man, sings the songs of bardic power, uses wizards spells and rituals in ways I never plan, split the party when they should not, miss the most obvious clues, smile, laugh, disagree and have fun in our hobby. Plus once the update is out I will give them greater flexibility to re-train or choose any of the items that would have been available to their characters from the update.
Now having said all of that and being a manager in the customer service and hospitality industry I have a strong expectation that Wizards act in a professional, honorable and transparent manner now and in the future. Communicate well and often. Thank you for your time.
Regards
Graylion
I will not be buying any WotC products for the months of September or October 2010. I ask all of you to also not buy WotC products for these months in order to teach WotC a lesson and perhaps force them to change their poor customer service.
Joe
Now, in regards to people wanting 'refunds.' Personally, I don't feel anyone deserves refunds for something like this in the typical sense of refunding. Wizards should not give anyone 'funds' for this month delay, especially not on an automatic, mass refund type of system. Wizards does not owe us money. If they were to owe us anything, which I am not saying that they do, it would be time.
I propose this. Instead of asking Wizards to refund you for the month of September, how about instead we ask for an extension of our current subscription period by either i) 1 full month (ie from Feb-7 to Mar-7, or Jul-7 to Aug-7) or ii) the total number of days between the originally scheduled date of the updates and the actual date of the update.
Yes, in one frame of mind this means Wizards loses a months worth of payment from a large group of people (those willing to make the effort to demand compensation, which thankfully will never reach 100% of the total group) but it's the difference between us taking away money from Wizards that they have already earned, and Wizards giving us extra time to get what we paid for.
I guess it all depends on what you think you deserve from Wizards. I just personally think that if Wizards owes us anything because of one month of sub par product, it's one month extra of an overall above par product. Keep the money we've given you. Keep your employees paid. Keep them working. Keep the machine running. But if you feel like we do deserve something, give us a month to remember.
And more Penny Arcade podcasts would be sweet. :P
Joe
I dont suppose you need an extra player
This is from the EULA you AGREED to:
7. Updates and Patches. Wizards may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Software that must be installed for the user to continue to use the Software. Wizards may update the Software remotely, including without limitation updating the Software client residing on the user’s machine, without the knowledge or consent of the user, and you grant to Wizards your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches, updates or modification to the Software.
You signed and agreed to it. The fact they are WILLING to give you a service refund for the month is extremely remarkable. Instead of bitching about it, you should thank them
This is from the EULA you AGREED to:
7. Updates and Patches. Wizards may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Software that must be installed for the user to continue to use the Software. Wizards may update the Software remotely, including without limitation updating the Software client residing on the user’s machine, without the knowledge or consent of the user, and you grant to Wizards your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches, updates or modification to the Software.
You signed and agreed to it. The fact they are WILLING to give you a service refund for the month is extremely remarkable. Instead of bitching about it, you should thank them
Bah, don't you know that's one's sense of entitlement supercedes this you heretic!
Chances are this is not anyone persons failing but rather a series of complexities that occur in life. Unless there is one single person responsible in which case I propose everyone gets one swing with a nerf bat and call it good. ;)
This is from the EULA you AGREED to:
7. Updates and Patches. Wizards may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Software that must be installed for the user to continue to use the Software. Wizards may update the Software remotely, including without limitation updating the Software client residing on the user’s machine, without the knowledge or consent of the user, and you grant to Wizards your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches, updates or modification to the Software.
You signed and agreed to it. The fact they are WILLING to give you a service refund for the month is extremely remarkable. Instead of bitching about it, you should thank them
You're right: That is the EULA I agreed to two years ago. As I am no longer satisfied with the EULA or what it means from a company-customer interaction perspective, I have cancelled my account. 'Nuff said.
Due to
Aaaaannnd, this thread is done.
If you want to continue a civil conversation, please feel free to do so in the thread in the DDI Announcements forum. If, however, you wish to continue making accusations of posters being shills, or demands that a list be produced, or any number of other types of posts that do nothing to further the discussion of the topic, you are unfortunately out of luck.
It looks like we are all moving over here. It is my fault, I inadvertently called them shills, and they shut that thread down. Sorry bout that.... 
. But, hey what is going on here?
This is from the EULA you AGREED to:
7. Updates and Patches. Wizards may deploy or provide patches, updates and modifications to the Software that must be installed for the user to continue to use the Software. Wizards may update the Software remotely, including without limitation updating the Software client residing on the user’s machine, without the knowledge or consent of the user, and you grant to Wizards your consent to deploy and apply such patches, updates and modifications to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches, updates or modification to the Software.
You signed and agreed to it. The fact they are WILLING to give you a service refund for the month is extremely remarkable. Instead of bitching about it, you should thank them
Western Union had a complex contract on the back of their telegram forms (kids, as your parents) that basically stated that they were obligated to receive the message/money transfer from the sender. They were not actually obligated to successfully deliver said message/money transfer. While that may be the case, a customer who did not have their message/money delivered would rightfully be upset at Western Union for their lapse.
By the time this update is uploaded, two months will have passed since some of the material has been updated. Because of this, Psionic Power, Dark Sun Campaign Guide, Dark Sun Creature Catalog, Heroes of the Fallen Land, Rules Compendium and two issue of Dragon and Dungeon will have been sitting around, some of this for more than two months. How long are we expected to wait without complaining?
Note: I am a programmer/systems administrator and know that some of this should have been handled better. This type of system calls for something closer to an agile programming approach which is definitely not the methodology followed by WotC based on what I've seen. If they were smart about this, they would go to more frequent updates with smaller sets of data. Do an update on Psionic Power, follow it up next week with the Dragon updates or Dungeon updates. Don't hold up all parts for one of the programs. There is no reason why the online compendium should wait for the character builder or that the monster builder should wait for the compendium. By taking smaller bites, development becomes easier and quicker. Instead, they decided to wrap a lot of stuff into one big update which means, just before this comes out, even more material will need to be added. That's a losing game.
Yes things happen and things get delayed. I wasn't upset when the update at the beginning of the month was delayed. Now the update is being delayed again with no promise of an actual date and I feel I have the right to be upset.
Sure, I can just stop playing or go somewhere else for my RPG needs but is a "love it or leave it" attitude really what we want to foster here? I thought we were past that kind of attitude. I want a company the size of WOTC to give me a good product for my money and in most cases they do and I'm very happy and have commented in the past at how happy certain products or things I have purchased had made me. Now when something gets me upset am I not allowed to comment also?
And as far as the whole EULA business, in order to get the CB I have to agree to it. Not much of a choice as far as real choices go but a choice nonetheless. Maybe WOTC does indeed support a "love it or leave it" attitude.
In the future I will contine to purchase things that I feel are worth my money. The CB and MB was far and away worth it (despite the subpar PDF's that I never use) and I only hope that this second delay isn't a signal of worse things to come. (BTW I'm still waiting for all the other cool stuff in the back of my PBH and MM to come out of DDI that was advertised when I started purchasing 4e dnd material. Been awhile since I complained about that delay).
WOTC apologists will pretty much condone anything WOTC does and defend it with animal like fierceness but isn't it pretty much normal to feel a bit upset when things like this happen?
Not only defend it but you too can get this email should you say something they do not like. So easy does it, is my recommendation.
Hello,
In our online communities we strive to create a safe and fun environment for all of our members. We have set up a Code of Conduct to be as fair as possible. You can find our Code of Conduct by clicking here .
We found content you posted on Wizards Community that violates section 3 of the Code of Conduct.
"Don't blame ................. They ..................... have to spoon the WotC "feel good" rhetoric for us malcontents."
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. click here.
Online Community Conduct Wizards of the Coast
[---001:001361:09404---]
(edited to avoid violating the Code of Conduct...
WOTC apologists will pretty much condone anything WOTC does and defend it with animal like fierceness but isn't it pretty much normal to feel a bit upset when things like this happen?Not only defend it but you too can get this email should you say something they do not like. So easy does it, is my recommendation.
LOL, I'm not trying to stir up anybody or insult anybody. I'm just voicing what I thought was a fairly debatable point. In the future I will take extra care not to inadvertently offend anybody IE I will take it easy. Thanks for the heads up
WOTC apologists will pretty much condone anything WOTC does and defend it with animal like fierceness
Neither side has an exclusive lock on acting out of proportion to the incident.
but isn't it pretty much normal to feel a bit upset when things like this happen? Paying customers are entitled to good customer service and good products. When things like this happen why shouldn't gamers who were waiting excitedly all month get upset?
I think that *I* have been pretty clear that people have every right to be upset. Just as other people have every right to go "meh, no big deal"
Now, one position does not mean that the opposing position is one that is less valid or wrong. The determination over what type of action is required due to the lack of updates is a subjective one. When people look at it, they look at it through their own biases and experiences. What for one person is the final straw that results in the cancellation of their subscruiption, may be not even worth complaining about for another.
If you have a problem with the lack of updates, contact WotC and let them know. The best and most effective way is by snail mail, although calling and emailing them will also work.
Yes things happen and things get delayed. I wasn't upset when the update at the beginning of the month was delayed. Now the update is being delayed again with no promise of an actual date and I feel I have the right to be upset.
I am trying to get a statement from WotC on when the update is coming out. As soon as I find out, I will be letting people know.
Now when something gets me upset am I not allowed to comment also?
I think that I (and WotC) have been quite clear in that if you are unhappy with something, you have every right to complain, as long as it doesn't cross the CoC.
WOTC apologists will pretty much condone anything WOTC does and defend it with animal like fiercenessNeither side has an exclusive lock on acting out of proportion to the incident.
Agreed. Although in my experience I have been jumped on pretty aggressively for seemingly fair and debatable comments.but isn't it pretty much normal to feel a bit upset when things like this happen? Paying customers are entitled to good customer service and good products. When things like this happen why shouldn't gamers who were waiting excitedly all month get upset?I think that *I* have been pretty clear that people have every right to be upset. Just as other people have every right to go "meh, no big deal"
As far as what you have said I have no idea so far since this is the first post of yours that I have read on this thread. Also I agree that we all have equal right to be upset or content and am only arguing whether my being disappointed is cause to be called "Bitching" or ungrateful.Now, one position does not mean that the opposing position is one that is less valid or wrong. The determination over what type of action is required due to the lack of updates is a subjective one. When people look at it, they look at it through their own biases and experiences. What for one person is the final straw that results in the cancellation of their subscruiption, may be not even worth complaining about for another.
Agreed. It is as with most things in life. Subjective. I for one am not cancelling my subscription and hope that WOTC addresses this issue in the future. If I were to go through multiple delays again then I will consider a more extreme course of action than just expressing my view on a public chat forum.If you have a problem with the lack of updates, contact WotC and let them know. The best and most effective way is by snail mail, although calling and emailing them will also work.
Is this to say that I am not supposed to complain or comment on the forums at all? How do you know I haven't already begun penning my letter to WOTC? As long as I am polite, civilized and try my best to not violate the CoC then I should be free to post as I have been doing.Yes things happen and things get delayed. I wasn't upset when the update at the beginning of the month was delayed. Now the update is being delayed again with no promise of an actual date and I feel I have the right to be upset.I am trying to get a statement from WotC on when the update is coming out. As soon as I find out, I will be letting people know.
Very much appreciated. Thank you!Now when something gets me upset am I not allowed to comment also?I think that I (and WotC) have been quite clear in that if you are unhappy with something, you have every right to complain, as long as it doesn't cross the CoC.
Which is basically the essence of what I'm doing. I appreciate your feedback and will continue to post and strive to be a productive forum member.
Is this to say that I am not supposed to complain or comment on the forums at all? How do you know I haven't already begun penning my letter to WOTC? As long as I am polite, civilized and try my best to not violate the CoC then I should be free to post as I have been doing.
Far from it. However, while I do my best to bring things up to WotC, it is not possible for me to make a list of everything that people say in every forum. And while WotC employees make valiant attempts to look at all of the forums, there are a lot more posters than WotC employees.
However, my comment was more aimed at the impact that types of communication have with respect to the message being delivered. Writing or calling is still seen in most businesses as the most "serious" method of delivering your opinion, and it traditionally is weighted much more than other forms. It requires much more personal effort to write a letter or call the company directly to complain (politely, always politely) than to post ona forum or write an email.
Note: None of the above is to be taken as any sort of indication that you (bydchon) are a less-than-ideal forum member, and if it is read that way, I apologize for my use of words.
You know what, I've been waiting anxiously for this update and gotta admit I feel very upset over this.
Agreed, this is totally unexceptable, we are paying for a monthly update, end of, not a one month when it suits them. i do hope to that refunds will be sorted out quicker than them telling us any info about the updates.
I would expect them to add one month on to my subscription and nothing less. This is uncalled for.
You can contact Customer Support and request a refund for the month. Several others who have requested this have already received one.
If you have a problem with the lack of updates, contact WotC and let them know. The best and most effective way is by snail mail, although calling and emailing them will also work.
It strikes me as a bit odd that WotC spends money to build, then rebuild, maintain, and moderate a forum/community and then doesn't pay a great deal of attention to feedback they get there.
Okay, I'll spring for a stamp. Who, specifically, should I address my letter to?
With respect to the current problem, Essentials introduces major structural changes to the way that classes are treated in 4e. This goes far, far beyond any previous change including those changes introduced with Psionic and Hybrid classes. Whereas before each class had a selection of some static set of features followed by the standard A-W/E/D power structure, now you have essentially five new classes each of which is its own special little snowflake over the entire thirty level progression. Furthermore, now these new classes have to be presented in a way that makes sense alongside the existing 4e material. Once this stuff is implemented, we are not even close to a release since all this extra functionality has to be tested in conjunction with all previous content. This too is a non-trivial task and one often overlooked by people who don't do software development or software testing. The final problem is that the software engineers and software developers can't even start working until the creative people are done. This means that the programmer's time is now constrained by the creative completion on one end and the final deadline on the other. Something has got to give.
I'm guessing here that this new functionality requires major structural changes to the CB for which we have no perspective or understanding. Sure, they could have planned for this expansion when they were writing the CB 2+ years ago, but without the foresight to see Essentials and it's nature, it would have been wasted effort at the time. We can fault Wizards for failing to come up with the update on-time, but we cannot lay the blame at the feet of the programmers without knowing the whole story.
To do otherwise is an injustice.
To call American programmers lazy and blame them for outsourcing is a greater injustice.
This pretty much cuts to the heart of the issue I think. I, like everyone else I think am disappointed by the lack of update this month, especially because we are starting a Dark Sun campaign in 2 weeks and I was hoping to have the CB ready by then for some of our players. However, some of the Essentials classes (Read- Martial) have completely different structures to them. They gain no encounter attack powers, no daily attack powers, and gain a whole host of static bonuses and additional first level stances/tricks. In fact, that kind of class design pretty much goes against the original design space of 4e, where every class was supposed to follow the same basic progression rule set (a step forward in balance IMO). As such, they surely have to re-create a large section of code, and basically the most important part IMO (the level up system).
One of the most common problems with the Management/Programmer barriers is that two things might sound like they are relatively similar in size to accomplish, but one is an addition, whereas another is a fundamental rewrite of existing code that is widespread and used frequently. Anything that changes the fundamental architecture rather than simply adding onto it will take an enormous amount of time to code, and even more so, to test. When you introduce an entirely different level up scheme, you have the potential of breaking the entire program, or even worse, subtly breaking many small pieces of it. Worse yet, code changes are fairly difficult to track, or at least to see the impact of a small change in the code directly, and the more hours you shove into it in one sitting (i.e. "just work more hours to get it done") the more likely you are to produce bad code, but not realize it. After a certain point, your brain just starts to burn out and your work can become actively harmful to other areas of the program. This doesn't mean that from time to time people have to crunch some extra hours in; its just part of the reality that certain time periods will just require more work. But when we are talking about a delay of a month or more, it simply won't be productive to just "make that up with longer hours".
Am I disappointed? Yeah. Am I somewhat angry that I paid for this month and got almost nothing to show for it? I... suppose, but not all that upset at it. Do I understand why the programmers are likely going through hell for this update? You bet your butt I do.
I want to be clear that this isn't a shot at mudbunny. The fact that this is true isn't his fault.If you have a problem with the lack of updates, contact WotC and let them know. The best and most effective way is by snail mail, although calling and emailing them will also work.
It strikes me as a bit odd that WotC spends money to build, then rebuild, maintain, and moderate a forum/community and then doesn't pay a great deal of attention to feedback they get there.
Okay, I'll spring for a stamp. Who, specifically, should I address my letter to?
I just want to clear something up.
It is not that WotC employees do not pay attention to the forums. They do. I pass things up, as do other VCLs, and CM staff regularly watch the forums. I know that various members of the DDI staff also read the forums. However, when it comes to the effectiveness of communicating a point of view to a company, writing a letter is still the most effective way to do things. For the great majority of companies, a written letter expressing your displeasure still carries much more weight.
A written letter requires a great deal more personal effort than does a n email or a forum posting. Again, that is not to say that they do not carry weight, however a written letter carries more weight.
Anyways, here is the address:
Trevor Kidd
c/o Wizards of the Coast
1600 Lind Ave SW
Suite 400
Renton, WA 98055
Okay, I'll spring for a stamp. Who, specifically, should I address my letter to?
I found this;
Regular Mail: You can also send us a letter, although it does take a little longer for us to reply. Here's our address:
Wizards of the Coast
ATTN: Game Support
P.O. Box 707
Renton, WA 98057-0707
A written letter requires a great deal more personal effort than does a n email or a forum posting. Again, that is not to say that they do not carry weight, however a written letter carries more weight.
How is it a written letter carries more weight? I have a circular file that sits near my desk that is just as effective as the delete key on my keyboard. That does not even account for the postal delivery service even making it to the proper address.
I have a question for you, do all the VCLs, Guides, etc. get free DDI accounts? Just wondering.
Lets say I order a large fry from a place that offers them. Said place gives me a large container but only a few fries, should I be upset? I mean I got some fries, not what I expected but HEY I got some fries. It is only a couple of bucks, why should I care, I got fries? Say this place had a EULA that stated there was no guarantee that I was to get a full large fry container, but every other time I ordered a large fry I got a full one. According to some I should just shutup, sit down and eat my fries. I should just be thankful that my life was made easier by having some fries. Maybe I don't eat fries everyday, so I should not complain because this may have normally been a day that I would not but now I got some fries BONUS!
When I voice my complaint at the medium the places offers, front counter, I get a response. And guess what I get a full container of fries or a refund. I do not even have to go back to the same person I ordered my fries from, anyone that hears me at the front counter will help. Of course they may have to get a manager to refund my money, if it came to that. But I digress.
To the point. These forums are offered as a medium for the users of the company's products to voice opinions, ask questions, etc.. of one another and the company. All with the understanding and expectation that the forums are monitored by said company or an employee. I guarantee you WotC is aware of our discontent. It is my opinion they should be offering to extend subs or refund monies to any and all that have officially complained by using any of their offered mediums of communication.
Shoot, now I am hungry for fries.
I again say ya I want my update and would love to roll out my new dark sun game and will not until it is in the character builder. So I will continue my current game and maybe my characters will gain 2 more levels before I pause my existing game and run dark sun.
Also as I mentioned in a prevous post let's assign some fictitious values to our monthly fees.
30% online dragon content
30% online dungeon content
30% compendium & builder conent
30% design , r&d
30% use of current content and builder
40% monthly update and maintenance
10% other misc tools
Let's assume your monthly fee is $10
So $10 x 30%= $3 x 40% = $1.20
Ok now all of you who want to play assign your own numbers.
What are we really talking about?
I'm just saying.
Regards
To follow the food example above, it was like I ordered a full meal but it arrived without the entree. I may have enough food to get by and the quality of that food may have value close to what I paid for it. However, I paid for a full meal and that's what I expect to get. Should I, as a customer, expect any less?
Even if you do not use them they are part of the deal.
Up to this point Wizards has done a great job providing the monthly content of their printed products in the builder and compendium proven by the many products and updates prior to now.
As stated in the EULA they are not required to provide an update and let many take this recent minor delay as a means of entitlement. Having been the owner of poor software releases before I am very content to have Wizards release the data and builder in it's best state. If they need more time then I understand that. I have always felt that's gamers have a better ability to adapt to challenge both in game and out of game.
I am surprised at the level of "fervor" revolving around this delay. To quote one of my players it is a game, not life or death.
As far as the meal we will agree to disagree. One is a one shot purchase in which you deal with your satisfaction of the sold product in one transaction. The service or subscription have several parts and is on-going. Wizards has not removed your ability to use the current data or builder which continues to function and power the characters of MANY groups in our hobby.
Do I agree you have the right to be disappointed in the delay, of course. I am disappointed. You also have to right to bow out and cancel your subscription, or the right to not renew. As customers we have the power of choice and we can speak with our feet by walking. Maybe one choice is to cancel a subscription, use Hero Lab ( works great for Pathfinder ) and enter the data yourself or use the downloader.
Regards
Up to this point Wizards has done a great job. I am surprised at the level of "fever" revolving around this delay.
Wizards has done a great job? Huh? You are surprised at the level of "fever"? Huh?
I have 2 words for you, GAME TABLE. Ask WotC about that debacle and how they lied/tricked everyone.
And no, WotC, you are never going to live that one down. Never.
How about the digital vault to hold characters?
Was it a great concept? Yes.
Do I want it? Yes.
Do I feel it should be easy? Yes.
Have I found my own means? Yes.
Box.net
Dropbox
Again I am just saying we have had an amazing game since 4e came out and even better with the current digital tools we have. I am just saying.
Thanks
Hey quick question, there is a little dragon icon beside some of the posters names, including my own. I am guessing that this means they are a ddi subscriber as this is the same symbol on the PDF articles that require my login and password. Thanks
I put my money where my mouth is and canceled my renewal. I personally know that my one sub will make no difference but it is the best I can do. Read the bold below as to why I still have my dragon.
from DnDI.cs@digitalriver.com
to XXXXXXXl@xxxxxxx.com (email changed to protect the innocent 
)
date Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 8:10 AM
subject Stop Auto Renewal Confirmation
mailed-by digitalriver.com
This email is to confirm that we have stopped automatic billing for your subscription. Your subscription will continue to be active until the expiration date listed below.
At that time, you will have to manually renew or your subscription will be cancelled.
Subscription Details:
Original Order Number: 7835725700
Expiration Date: 10/29/2010
If you have questions about your order, please visit:www.findmyorder.com
Yours Sincerely,
Dungeons and Dragons Insider Customer Service
www.findmyorder.com
Oh and as for the articles come on. They are really starting to scramble, did you read the one on Muls? Please, no offense meant Schwalb but seriously not much there of interest. Is anyone getting anything meaningful out of the articles lately? I have yet to use something from one in the games I have played. I paid for the CB and the monthly updates, time and again they have put it off or failed to correct a glaring issue, to me the value has gone down.
Anyway, if people are so upset that they are cancelling their subscriptions, good for them! I mean it! If you are unsatisfied, then seriously, you are probably doing the best thing. I have a ton of players that are only interested in maybe 3 of the books that have come out, and they only buy those; this is the exact same thing. I know that you want the answer to be for them to do more and/or better content, but if that isn't going to happen and you are unhappy, you shouldn't burn money or brain cells on something you are not enjoying. The best thing is, if you resubscribe in a year, you can update your CB once and get all the changes, so really you only "lose out" while you aren't paying, but never really get "left behind" if you stop for awhile. Best of luck
Yes, you can be upset, if you are then do something constructive about you being upset. Complaining to people that will just argue with you really won't get you anywhere. So go cancel your subscription ask for a refund or go play a game of chess if you want some mental stimulation.
Yes, again, it's upsetting that big bad WotC didn't live up to their words and didn't let you go to Disney Land but that's the principle of understanding and being accepting.
Character builder is still there, most people are upset that both the updates aren't even that good or that their content is lacking. If you really have a problem with both content and the character builder update then why are you complaining, again, go cancel your account and play the parts of 4th that you do like or go back to the edition that makes sense to you.
I'm also reading a lot about programmers of people that have computer experience. That's great that you have it, super awesome that you can add to our economy in some way that improves our way of life but most of the posts just seem argumentative and that's just a downer to read which makes no one really care what you are and what you have done. If you want to be productive, apply to WotC and see if you can program for the CB.
Now, as for WotC, I wish they would be more open about their information on these matters and give a bit more of a response to these posts (hint hint, would like to know the current status of it all or maybe a nice and easy location to find said information besides scouring the forums for small posts here and there, hint hint)
Your costumer base is mad, I would suggest changing some business operations that are causing your customers to be mad. Mad customers don't buy products which cause loses in profit which causes losses in workers which causes losses in productivity which causes mad customers and losses in profit which double the cycle which then quadruples the cycle and so on. Maybe I'm wrong but it's probably a safe assumption that a few dollars were lost today in reimbursement.
In the end, I'm not a subscriber, I mooch off of my friend and I'm glad I do. That way I can have my cake and eat it too without the worry of being angry or being stiffled by a bad business plan.
Have fun being angry at WotC or someone defending them, everyone!
I don't really have a big problem with this pushback. It's annoying, but I'm going to assume that they knew the PR kerfluffle was coming, and they had no choice. I'm not goiing to ask for a refund, because I'm going to continue using the products I pay for. I'm going to keep using Character Builder, in it's non-updated form, I'm going to keep running Scales of War and my girlfriend is still going to kill monsters dead with her assassin in LFR this weekend.
I also don't really have a problem with people complaining on the forums about it. People complaining is a natural consequence of putting up forums.
But let's leave overgeneralized accusations against Americans out of this discussion please. If you want to call WotC's programmers lazy, I may not agree with you, but at least you won't come off like a bigot.
D&D Insider Subscriber,
We will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. We plan to update the Character Builder in early October with changes to support Dark Sun and the Essentials. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,
The D&DI Team
Will this be only Dark Sun? When will the mounts that I have asked about for over six months make their way into CB?
I have a question for you, do all the VCLs, Guides, etc. get free DDI accounts? Just wondering.
Being a VCL comes with a number of responsibilities. We are, whether we are employees of WotC or not, representatives of WotC. Often, we are the first ones that many forum users will encounter. We do a fair amount of collecting of data for WotC and scouring of the forums, in addition to the volunteer CM work that we do. In response, WotC gives to its VCLs a number of perks, including the occasional free WotC product. The details are, by request of WotC, considered semi-confidential matter, in no small part to keep applicants for VCL positions limited to those that want to do the job, not those that want free swag.
Being a VCL comes with a number of responsibilities. We are, whether we are employees of WotC or not, representatives of WotC. Often, we are the first ones that many forum users will encounter. We do a fair amount of collecting of data for WotC and scouring of the forums, in addition to the volunteer CM work that we do. In response, WotC gives to its VCLs a number of perks, including the occasional free WotC product. The details are, by request of WotC, considered semi-confidential matter, in no small part to keep applicants for VCL positions limited to those that want to do the job, not those that want free swag.
Wow, I am friggin dizzy. It took a bit for WotC legal to get back to ya with this answer, eh? So you do, that is all you had to say. Got it and I suspected as much. Was just wondering is all and it explains a lot. Thanks for the update.
I have a question for you, do all the VCLs, Guides, etc. get free DDI accounts? Just wondering.
Being a VCL comes with a number of responsibilities. We are, whether we are employees of WotC or not, representatives of WotC. Often, we are the first ones that many forum users will encounter. We do a fair amount of collecting of data for WotC and scouring of the forums, in addition to the volunteer CM work that we do. In response, WotC gives to its VCLs a number of perks, including the occasional free WotC product. The details are, by request of WotC, considered semi-confidential matter, in no small part to keep applicants for VCL positions limited to those that want to do the job, not those that want free swag.
You know I was going to reply not to answer because it would be held against you. I must admit the backhanded insult was delivered quite adroitly.
I have a question for you, do all the VCLs, Guides, etc. get free DDI accounts? Just wondering.
Being a VCL comes with a number of responsibilities. We are, whether we are employees of WotC or not, representatives of WotC. Often, we are the first ones that many forum users will encounter. We do a fair amount of collecting of data for WotC and scouring of the forums, in addition to the volunteer CM work that we do. In response, WotC gives to its VCLs a number of perks, including the occasional free WotC product. The details are, by request of WotC, considered semi-confidential matter, in no small part to keep applicants for VCL positions limited to those that want to do the job, not those that want free swag.
Wait, you get free stuff for doing this??? I think I need a raise for my volunteer status. I want double my salary, or I quit.
OK, seriously, well, cat being out of the bag as much as it is at this point, yea, we get some freebies. But we get what we need in order to be proficient in our respective areas. I don't get a copy of every set of minis, dungeon tiles, and hardcover book. I get what I need so that when someone comes here with a question about how to use the character builder, or find a magazine article, I can give them the proper instructions.
Its not a payoff for us to be cheerleaders for the company. Its a responsibility to keep our skills sharp. Yea, I get to use the builder when I make a character for my personal use too. Thats a 'thank you' from the company for all the hard work we put in here. I have never been pressured into supporting a product line or acting as a company mouthpiece in exchange, and I'd bet my entire collection of dice that no one else has either.
Wait, you get free stuff for doing this??? I think I need a raise for my volunteer status. I want double my salary, or I quit.
Wow, I am friggin dizzy. It took a bit for WotC legal to get back to ya with this answer, eh? So you do, that is all you had to say. Got it and I suspected as much. Was just wondering is all and it explains a lot. Thanks for the update.
Nope. Had nothing to do with legal, and everything to do with real life not letting me get to the forums in any substantial way until this afternoon when I posted the above.
You know I was going to reply not to answer because it would be held against you.
Not the first time, not the last time. People will believe what they want, whether the facts support it or not.
Wait, you get free stuff for doing this??? I think I need a raise for my volunteer status. I want double my salary, or I quit.
2 x $0 is still $0, so yeah, I think that the budget for VCL salaries (currently $0 per year) won't be affected by this.
Its not a payoff for us to be cheerleaders for the company. Its a responsibility to keep our skills sharp. Yea, I get to use the builder when I make a character for my personal use too. Thats a 'thank you' from the company for all the hard work we put in here.
And if someone thinks that we are solely cheerleaders or shills, and that as a result we are not allowed to criticize WotC, then that is someone who really hasn't been paying attention to what is written.
Wait, you get free stuff for doing this??? I think I need a raise for my volunteer status. I want double my salary, or I quit.
I can't tell if my comment has made you sick, or if you are offering me vomit in place of the raise I jokingly demanded?
I can't tell if my comment has made you sick, or if you are offering me vomit in place of the raise I jokingly demanded?
I will take the fifth, that way I cannot be accused of or reported as having violating the CoC. 
Though if you happen to find a rotten fish in the backseat of your car, with a note reading 'Love, AL', that was me.
Hehe, I don't think vomitting on me is specifically prohibited, so you are probably ok.
Though if you happen to find a rotten fish in the backseat of your car, with a note reading 'Love, AL', that was me.
That was you!?!?!
Plots revenge
Hehe, I don't think vomitting on me is specifically prohibited, so you are probably ok.
Though if you happen to find a rotten fish in the backseat of your car, with a note reading 'Love, AL', that was me.
That was you!?!?!
Plots revenge
*snickers, and sneaks off with his bucket of fish, evil plan complete*
I'm with those programmers!
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!!
-DS
Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
From Reality:
Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. This will allow us to "smash and grab" all the renewals from annual subscriptions as a majority of them expire in October. We will continue to release minimal borderline useless content in the future to keep you interested enough to not un-subscribe. Any changes to the schedule will be promptly announced by us to give the impression that we care. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause simply because we think it makes us look better. Should you want a refund good luck since our refunds are answered by a foreign Gibbering Mouther.
This will allow us to "smash and grab" all the renewals from annual subscriptions as a majority of them expire in October. We will continue to release minimal borderline useless content in the future to keep you interested enough to not un-subscribe.
When I explained this to my fiancée she said absolutely the same thing. She is not a gamer but when I explained what was going on her comment was a flat "They are holding out for the renewals, everyone will renew to get the coming update. This was planned, we do something like it at our store". She is a manager at a known retail store. Man, was she right, I did not think it was something so diabolical. It is always about the money.
It is even without the typical slime dropping politeless - like "Dear D&D Insider subscriber, we are very sorry that we have to yadda yadda...."
Btw I am a software programmer myself, I know how it is to work from the morning until past midnight because some things have to be done. But sometimes it is just impossible. Plain and simple.
My first hint that things were smelling a bit fishy was the mistakes on the 2nd season pregen character cards. Users were having to correct and update the cards themselves. I was shocked that WotC didn't just fix the cards and repost them. They just left them in their incorrect state available for download! As far as I know, they even now have the pregen character cards for 2nd season on the Encounters page! That's just sloppy. The Encounters page also is at least an encounter behind in the description.
I decided a few weeks ago to subscribe to the D&D Insider feature. I wanted to create/modify my season 2 character for Encounters, but there was no Dark Sun update to the character builder. Season 2 is now finished and there still is no update! WTF? Now they're starting a new season of Encounters based upon the Essentials rules. This is also not in the Character Builder. Why am I paying for this?! It's not even up to date for the 2nd season, let alone the 3rd!
I'm a new guy with all this and I can honestly say WotC is giving me a bad taste of "amateur hour". This smacks of profiteering.
However, the Rules Companion and Heroes of the Fallen Lands are very well done. There maybe a few design problems, but these are by far the best products (at least from a QA POV) WotC released for D&D ever. It seems the red box used some pre release versions of these products as a base and wasn't updated.
That they screwed up with the Character Builder is sad, but I assume they got a some changes a few days before the books where released, and that's why we have to wait.
I am not spending a single penny with any WotC for a very long time and I will recommend this to my players and friends.
A company should learn from its mistakes and attend to them fast.
#fail
After a very polite e-mail to Customer Service, I've received a refund for 1/12 of an annual subscription (given that I paid for a 12-month back in April or May). The entire thing was accomplished in just over 24 hours.
I had originally indicated that my preference was a 1-month extension to my subscription, and that the refund was the 2nd choice, but I'm happy either way. I suspect the message has been received.
This will allow us to "smash and grab" all the renewals from annual subscriptions as a majority of them expire in October. We will continue to release minimal borderline useless content in the future to keep you interested enough to not un-subscribe.When I explained this to my fiancée she said absolutely the same thing. She is not a gamer but when I explained what was going on her comment was a flat "They are holding out for the renewals, everyone will renew to get the coming update. This was planned, we do something like it at our store". She is a manager at a known retail store. Man, was she right, I did not think it was something so diabolical. It is always about the money.
As upset as I am (and I think everyon has a right to be) about the delay, I don't think its a good reason to go into tin-foil hat territory. It's not even a good conspiracy theory be because it assumes that the number of people of will re-up for a year exceeds the number who WOULD have re-upped for a year but now will only re-up for a month or not at all BECAUSE of the delay. Not a safe assumption by any means.
First, are you the same people that complain about WotC's lack of information regarding the future releases for Adventure Tools? WotC is telling you they couldn't make it for the September update and I've read lots of people saying they shouldn't have promised the 21st update in that case. All this bitching just gives WotC another reason to remain silent about their plans for AT.
Second, I work in EA and, believe me, software engineering is not a straightforward task. You need to write the code, then test it, write some more code, test it, debug everything, test it a third time, fix the issues, test, fix the knock-on issues, cross your fingers and test everything again. It takes a lot of effort, resources and time. I guess no one will say that EA has the same problems because their "software department" (8.000 people) is also understaffed, underfunded or is plain incompetent... And I'm 100% sure that everyone would be bitching again had they released a faulty update with a dozen bugs. If WotC has decided not to update is because they have some serious trouble with the patch (besides the insane amount of new content that needs to be added to this one), regardless of the bad PR they were going to get.
Third, your subscription includes Dungeon and Dragon magazines, besides hundreds of articles and art libraries. It's ok for me to ask for a refund, which I will probably do, but it's not like WotC is stealing your money, trying to cheat you or just being plain evil as many seem to be saying.
And Fourth, you are paying for a service, not a product. When you buy a faulty product (say, an iPhone 4) you are screwed if the seller doesn't refund your money, but when you pay for a monthly service that can be cancelled at any time... What's the big deal? Just cancel the subscription and come back when you see fit!
My 2 cents.
As upset as I am (and I think everyon has a right to be) about the delay, I don't think its a good reason to go into tin-foil hat territory.
Whatever lets you put your head on the pillow and fall asleep. This is not the first time companies have done this and I think that past examples have shown WotC the majority of people just complain and continue on spooning out the money. I recall the uprise when the rates were upped, should have seen the forums back then. And guess what, myself and others went ahead and renewed... BAAAA BAAAA.
It's not even a good conspiracy theory be because it assumes that the number of people of will re-up for a year exceeds the number who WOULD have re-upped for a year but now will only re-up for a month or not at all BECAUSE of the delay. Not a safe assumption by any means.
Sure it is, past experience with our reaction to how they have handled things allows for them to make a fairly accurate estimate of what we will do. My guess is the assumption is "they will just complain until the updates comes and renewals or subs will increase". But hey I look cute in my foil hat .
As upset as I am (and I think everyon has a right to be) about the delay, I don't think its a good reason to go into tin-foil hat territory.Whatever lets you put your head on the pillow and fall asleep. This is not the first time companies have done this and I think that past examples have shown WotC the majority of people just complain and continue on spooning out the money. I recall the uprise when the rates were upped, should have seen the forums back then. And guess what, myself and others went ahead and renewed... BAAAA BAAAA.
It's not even a good conspiracy theory be because it assumes that the number of people of will re-up for a year exceeds the number who WOULD have re-upped for a year but now will only re-up for a month or not at all BECAUSE of the delay. Not a safe assumption by any means.Sure it is, past experience with our reaction to how they have handled things allows for them to make a fairly accurate estimate of what we will do. My guess is the assumption is "they will just complain until the updates comes and renewals or subs will increase". But hey I look cute in my foil hat .
In which case there would be no need for a nefarious plot to intentionally delay things in order to get prople to re-subscribe, because they would have in any case by your logic. Especially not at the risk of alienating more customers than they would gain in so doing.
In any case, the twin razors of Occam and Hanlon both suggest "**** up" rather than "Conpiracy" and until/unless there is evidence to the contrary, assuming that they screwed up rather than that they deliberately set out to screw us is by far the most logical choice.
"They are holding out for the renewals, everyone will renew to get the coming update. This was planned, we do something like it at our store". She is a manager at a known retail store. Man, was she right, I did not think it was something so diabolical. It is always about the money.
I would be more willing to buy into this theory if they weren't handing out refunds. Refunds is a strong rebuttal to the money-grab theory.
I would be more willing to buy into this theory if they weren't handing out refunds. Refunds is a strong rebuttal to the money-grab theory.
Ever mailed in a $ rebate and it never showed up? I have; so having to ask for a refund is similar if you ask/beg you may get it. I wonder how many of those that have emailed CS got a refund? If you voice your complaint on one of the companies medium of communication they can pretend they NEVER noticed. It is a calculation on their part, hmmm refund all we have upset or just those that ask/beg for it? Like the auto industry; do we have a recall or just pay the lawsuits that pop up? It does come down to the money-grab. It is big business, what can you say but lets not hide behind the few refunds they may have dished out as proof it is not about money..... 
I have done my small part, if enough of those that are complaining do the same then maybe we as their customer base will be heard.
I wonder how many of those that have emailed CS got a refund?
So far, everyone who has asked for a refund has gotten one to the best of my knowledge. On neither the WotC forums nor the ENWorld forums has there been a post by someone saying that they asked for a refund and were refused. If you have evidence, I would ask you to bring it forward so I can get word to WotC_Trevor and he can try to find out what happened.
If you voice your complaint on one of the companies medium of communication they can pretend they NEVER noticed.
Whenever you submit a ticket via the WotC help system, you get an automatically generated reply with a unique ticket ID # which enables WotC to track each, individual request. The chance of a ticket being not noticed is pretty small. As I mentioned above, if you have actual evidence or proof of this happeneing, please, feel free to share the details so that it can be corrected.
I wonder how many of those that have emailed CS got a refund?
So far, everyone who has asked for a refund has gotten one to the best of my knowledge. On neither the WotC forums nor the ENWorld forums has there been a post by someone saying that they asked for a refund and were refused. If you have evidence, I would ask you to bring it forward so I can get word to WotC_Trevor and he can try to find out what happened.If you voice your complaint on one of the companies medium of communication they can pretend they NEVER noticed.
Whenever you submit a ticket via the WotC help system, you get an automatically generated reply with a unique ticket ID # which enables WotC to track each, individual request. The chance of a ticket being not noticed is pretty small. As I mentioned above, if you have actual evidence or proof of this happeneing, please, feel free to share the details so that it can be corrected.
That is why it was posed as a question. I wonder how many?????? There may be people out there that do not use this forum that have submitted a ticket. I myself in an unrelated trouble ticket asked for a clarification on why my post was removed and now going on two days have not heard word one. So, while it was not a refund request I still have not heard back from WotC via the "help system". then again it may be a bit early to expect an answer, the removal of said comment was quickly done but maybe responses take longer.
So, what if you only pay for DDI in order to access one of its included features: the CB? Is it reasonable to be unpset, cancel your entire subscription, conjure outrageous conspiracy theories?
First: of course you don't use just one feature. You use the Compendium. You read articles. Come on, be honest with yourself.
Second: no, ranting is not reasonable. Delays happen. Especially given the complexity of Dark Sun (themes, wild talents) and Essentials (rebuilds races, entire class progression structure and magic item paradigm--and has to be compatible with all previous 4e feats/items/powers/paragon paths/epic destinies).
Third: the CB still works just fine.
Now, if the CB failed to load... that's a reasonable cause for complaint. But it doesn't fail to load. It works.
Let me repeat: YOU'RE PAYING FOR THE CHARACTER BUILDER, AND THE CHARACTER BUILDER WORKS.
To reference a previous complainant's analogy: you ordered fries, and you got fries. The lack of a promised update is more like... more like the order-taker suggesting bacon salt would be a delicious addition to your fries, but when the fries come, no bacon salt is available. But will be soon, if you'll just be a little patient.
Meh. Not a big deal.
My advice? Calm down, go play a game, enjoy life. There are much better ways to spend time and energy. Or, if you want to rage, there are much more important issues to get upset about.
I would like to caution *everyone* against posting in a manner that tells other people what they are feeling is wrong. How aperson feels about a given situation or event is entirely subjective and very often it is impossible to fully opin-down or define with any great amount of accuracy why we feel the way that we do.
I will be a much happier bunny if we can manage to do this.
Thanks.
Let's look at what the DDI subscription is. In exchange for the DDI subscription fee, you get access to Character Builder, Dragon, Dungeon, Tools, Compendium, and galleries. One of those features (the Character Builder) skipped a scheduled update. All the other features updated on schedule--and the CB still functions, containing all previous updates.
Well that clears that up... I guess I am an _ _ _ hole for not feeling like I got what I paid for.
So, what if you only pay for DDI in order to access one of its included features: the CB? Is it reasonable to be unpset, cancel your entire subscription, conjure outrageous conspiracy theories?
I do not know about unpset but I do feel it is reasonable to be upset. And I have stopped my renewal. I may subscribe for a month at a time here and there. I do this to alleviate any consternation when expected updates fail to appear.
First: of course you don't use just one feature. You use the Compendium. You read articles. Come on, be honest with yourself.
I am so glad you are sitting beside me and can tell me what I do or do not use. Thanks I was not aware of it. I will pay better attention in the future. For everyone I rescind my previous comments for I did not know what I was using and the awesome benefits allowed me. I must be out of my mind.
Second: no, ranting is not reasonable. Delays happen. Especially given the complexity of Dark Sun (themes, wild talents) and Essentials (rebuilds races, entire class progression structure and magic item paradigm--and has to be compatible with all previous 4e feats/items/powers/paragon paths/epic destinies).
Funny how my opinion, and others that do not agree with yours, is ranting and this diatribe is not.
Third: the CB still works just fine.
It does, but not up to the expectations put in place by WotC.
Let me repeat: YOU'RE PAYING FOR THE CHARACTER BUILDER, AND THE CHARACTER BUILDER WORKS.
What did you say, I feel asleep with all the repetition in here. Reread the previous posts and other boards, like you I do not feel the need to go over all that again. I can not help it if you are not getting it.
Meh. Not a big deal.
And you opinion is noted, I on the other hand do not agree with it.
So, despite the irrationality and intellectual dishonesty, you're still upset. Gosh darn it, you paid for an update (you didn't, actually, but let's move on) and you're mad that WOTC stole your money (they didn't, but let's move on). Boy oh boy, are you mad that you didn't get value for your money!
Thanks Dr. Phil glad you got me diagnosed (you did not, but lets move on).
My advice? Calm down, go play a game, enjoy life. There are much better ways to spend time and energy. Or, if you want to rage, there are much more important issues to get upset about.
Thanks for the kind advice. I will work harder to find equanimity. Not sure what it is like in your life when people get upset but if what you are reading here makes you think I am then it must be nice living in Disney Land. (But lets move on).
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
"They are holding out for the renewals, everyone will renew to get the coming update. This was planned, we do something like it at our store". She is a manager at a known retail store. Man, was she right, I did not think it was something so diabolical. It is always about the money.
I would be more willing to buy into this theory if they weren't handing out refunds. Refunds is a strong rebuttal to the money-grab theory.
On the flip side of that if ey were not handing on money, people would say they are greedy and that is their plan. Seems to be a stacked conspiracy regardless.
Regards
You guys need to calm down and realize a few things here.
First, are you the same people that complain about WotC's lack of information regarding the future releases for Adventure Tools? WotC is telling you they couldn't make it for the September update and I've read lots of people saying they shouldn't have promised the 21st update in that case. All this bitching just gives WotC another reason to remain silent about their plans for AT.
Second, I work in EA and, believe me, software engineering is not a straightforward task. You need to write the code, then test it, write some more code, test it, debug everything, test it a third time, fix the issues, test, fix the knock-on issues, cross your fingers and test everything again. It takes a lot of effort, resources and time. I guess no one will say that EA has the same problems because their "software department" (8.000 people) is also understaffed, underfunded or is plain incompetent... And I'm 100% sure that everyone would be bitching again had they released a faulty update with a dozen bugs. If WotC has decided not to update is because they have some serious trouble with the patch (besides the insane amount of new content that needs to be added to this one), regardless of the bad PR they were going to get.
Third, your subscription includes Dungeon and Dragon magazines, besides hundreds of articles and art libraries. It's ok for me to ask for a refund, which I will probably do, but it's not like WotC is stealing your money, trying to cheat you or just being plain evil as many seem to be saying.
And Fourth, you are paying for a service, not a product. When you buy a faulty product (say, an iPhone 4) you are screwed if the seller doesn't refund your money, but when you pay for a monthly service that can be cancelled at any time... What's the big deal? Just cancel the subscription and come back when you see fit!
My 2 cents.
We met, well said and game on!
One of the VCLs (Mudbunny?) said they had submitted a question on when we could expect this update, whether it would contain Septembers dragon & dungeon content, and what would happen to octobers planned update? They said at the time they were expecting an answer the next day, but didn't hear back on this? Any news?
Also I didn't receive any email about this. There was no notification in the articles section (a simple note and apology there would've been nice) and found out about it by chance on the day i was expecting the update in the forums. Not really acceptable communication. If i hadn't stumbled upon it in the forum (in another thread where someone mentioned it in passing) the first I'd have known about would've been when i didn't receive it.
I appreciate you've had email problems. But if you can't even email your customers who have signed up to your electronic serivces properly that says something about your customer services. And given that you knew you'd had problems sending out the email, would it have been too much to ask to repeat the notification and apology on your main website. Or would that have looked too bad at a time you are trying to attract new customers? So you just leave your current customers hang in the breeze.
One of the VCLs (Mudbunny?) said they had submitted a question on when we could expect this update, whether it would contain Septembers dragon & dungeon content, and what would happen to octobers planned update? They said at the time they were expecting an answer the next day, but didn't hear back on this? Any news?
I poked Trevor Kidd (WotC Community Manager) about this, and he expects it to be included, but said that he would check and get back to me with verification. Keep in mind that Trevor does not actually work on DDI, so the info is his best guess.
Also I didn't receive any email about this. There was no notification in the articles section (a simple note and apology there would've been nice) and found out about it by chance on the day i was expecting the update in the forums. Not really acceptable communication. If i hadn't stumbled upon it in the forum (in another thread where someone mentioned it in passing) the first I'd have known about would've been when i didn't receive it.
I appreciate you've had email problems. But if you can't even email your customers who have signed up to your electronic serivces properly that says something about your customer services. And given that you knew you'd had problems sending out the email, would it have been too much to ask to repeat the notification and apology on your main website. Or would that have looked too bad at a time you are trying to attract new customers? So you just leave your current customers hang in the breeze.
I have been poking WotC about this, and have been assured that any problems with the website notification system have been resolved, and that people should all receive the emails that are sent out about notifications. It is important that people check their community settings, as well as their email inbox settings to make sure that it hasn't been shuffled off into the spam filter.
So the fact that he hasn't gotten back to you with verification is a good and a bad sign simultaneously.
First, are you the same people that complain about WotC's lack of information regarding the future releases for Adventure Tools? WotC is telling you they couldn't make it for the September update and I've read lots of people saying they shouldn't have promised the 21st update in that case. All this bitching just gives WotC another reason to remain silent about their plans for AT.
I haven't complained yet about Adventure Tools. I like the Monster Builder. I am upset about their lack of communication with their subscribers about the lack of updates for their products (which include their Monster Builder, Compendium and Character Builder). I received no e-mail and had to go on a scavenger hunt to find out that this month's update was effectively cancelled. If I had been contacted about the issue, I wouldn't have been nearly as upset.
Second, I work in EA and, believe me, software engineering is not a straightforward task. You need to write the code, then test it, write some more code, test it, debug everything, test it a third time, fix the issues, test, fix the knock-on issues, cross your fingers and test everything again.
I am also a software engineer and programmer. I understand the difficulty. However, this isn't something that would have come as a surprise for their software engineers either. After all, the books didn't magically appear on the shelves. They had to be printed and that means that the finalized version of the book would need to have been completed by at least a month (and more likely two) in advance. The general breakdown of how elements not already covered by the rules (i.e. themes is Dark Sun) would have been worked out far in advance. Much of the rest (races, powers, feats, etc.) would have been data entry more than programming.
Third, your subscription includes Dungeon and Dragon magazines, besides hundreds of articles and art libraries. It's ok for me to ask for a refund, which I will probably do, but it's not like WotC is stealing your money, trying to cheat you or just being plain evil as many seem to be saying.
I'm not accusing them of stealing my money or cheating me or being evil. I am simply stating that they are not providing the service that is expected of them. On top of that, they were not communicative with their customers about that. This, I believe is a valid complaint.
And Fourth, you are paying for a service, not a product. When you buy a faulty product (say, an iPhone 4) you are screwed if the seller doesn't refund your money, but when you pay for a monthly service that can be cancelled at any time... What's the big deal? Just cancel the subscription and come back when you see fit!
I don't want to cancel the subscription. I like DDI. Otherwise, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. However, that doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed in WotC's poor handling of this situation.
I assumed they hadn't gotten back to you for a very simple reason, whoever is in charger of DDI is most likely telling the rest of the team, "Look guys, we better have something for October or they are going to break down the doors and drag us through the streets" (at least that's what I would be doing right now if I were the boss of DDI). But as of now, they don't have any idea what exactly that something is going to be able to encompass. So they don't know what to tell Trevor so he doesn't know what to tell you.
So the fact that he hasn't gotten back to you with verification is a good and a bad sign simultaneously.
I believe that right there is entirely the problem though. I bet better communication could have fixed most of this, I'm under the impression that everything is on a need to know bases in the company and the company feels that the costumer base really just doesn't need to know. It would solve a lot of problems if someone who is actually working on the DDI would come onto the forum for just to make one post appologizing, telling us what happened and then gaven us a fairer estimate of when the project should be completed. I know if I saw an open appology than I would be more inclined to believe that this really wasn't just bad business practice and they honestly did make a mistake, but of course since nothing is said, everything is left to speculation and quite a few people are left mad. To me, that just spews, "we don't care".
Let's look at what the DDI subscription is. In exchange for the DDI subscription fee, you get access to Character Builder, Dragon, Dungeon, Tools, Compendium, and galleries. One of those features (the Character Builder) skipped a scheduled update. All the other features updated on schedule--and the CB still functions, containing all previous updates.
So, what if you only pay for DDI in order to access one of its included features: the CB? Is it reasonable to be unpset, cancel your entire subscription, conjure outrageous conspiracy theories?
First: of course you don't use just one feature. You use the Compendium. You read articles. Come on, be honest with yourself.
Second: no, ranting is not reasonable. Delays happen. Especially given the complexity of Dark Sun (themes, wild talents) and Essentials (rebuilds races, entire class progression structure and magic item paradigm--and has to be compatible with all previous 4e feats/items/powers/paragon paths/epic destinies).
Third: the CB still works just fine.
Now, if the CB failed to load... that's a reasonable cause for complaint. But it doesn't fail to load. It works.
Let me repeat: YOU'RE PAYING FOR THE CHARACTER BUILDER, AND THE CHARACTER BUILDER WORKS.
To reference a previous complainant's analogy: you ordered fries, and you got fries. The lack of a promised update is more like... more like the order-taker suggesting bacon salt would be a delicious addition to your fries, but when the fries come, no bacon salt is available. But will be soon, if you'll just be a little patient.
Meh. Not a big deal.
My advice? Calm down, go play a game, enjoy life. There are much better ways to spend time and energy. Or, if you want to rage, there are much more important issues to get upset about.
First off, Tools and Compendium also did not update. Look up any Dark Sun information.
Second, the Character Builder update is actually an important one, incorporating what will be two month old Dark Sun material and the new Essentials materials which incorporate some significant rule changes in character creation. Yes, Dragon and Dungeon is still there but my major effort is spent on the Character Builder, Compendium and Monster Builder.
Those of us in LFR campaigns have a limited amount of time to incorporate rule changes into our characters and, if the character builder is not up there, this means that we have to do it by hand. Why should I have to go through that amount of time when I am paying for a service to make those updates for me? I get paid enough to say that the time it takes to do the job manually is worth more than what I pay for my subscription (especially when you consider that part of that is divided into the Dragon and Dungeon, as the apologetics are happy to note). With more of my time and, therefore, money being wasted because of the lack of updates, where is my recompense?
Staying with the analogy, yes, like the Character Builder, the fries are there. However, they have gone cold and I expected hot food. I'd certainly demand my money back for cold fries and I'd complain about it if I had to run through hoops to get it. I don't believe I am out of line here for suggesting that WotC failed their customers in this by having no updates and poor communication with the customers over that lapse.
I have been poking WotC about this, and have been assured that any problems with the website notification system have been resolved, and that people should all receive the emails that are sent out about notifications. It is important that people check their community settings, as well as their email inbox settings to make sure that it hasn't been shuffled off into the spam filter.
I have never missed an email that is sent to inform me that a subscribed forum thread was updated. I mean I get several when people post one after another. Maybe they should set up the informational email system like the one the forums use. Just a thought.
so do we get a month free because we are not getting our updates? give us some thing for putting up with this. make us happy, and we will continue to make you rich. or at least keep the wolf from your door.-james
If you contact WotC Customer Service asking for a refund, you will get a month refunded.
I don't want to cancel the subscription. I like DDI. Otherwise, I wouldn't have signed up in the first place. However, that doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed in WotC's poor handling of this situation.
I think you are on your right to feel disappointed. We simply can't control what we feel, isn't it?
I just wanted to give a few reasonable explanations behind the failure to update DDI this month, because I think many people were crossing the line of disappointment and getting into plain trolling. That's clearly not your case, Strobe.
I've read a few posts pointing out that WotC could have failed to update on purpose, counting on the fact that everyone was not going to ask for a refund. That would be an evil thing to do, IMO. And that's a line that we shouldn't be crossing unless we have factual evidence, which is not the case, I reckon.
By the way, WotC just refunded my money for this month's subscription. The whole process took less than 20 hours and only required me to send them the request and then some account data.
I've read a few posts pointing out that WotC could have failed to update on purpose, counting on the fact that everyone was not going to ask for a refund. That would be an evil thing to do, IMO. And that's a line that we shouldn't be crossing unless we have factual evidence, which is not the case, I reckon.
Fact is they have done this before and they know how many people will ask for a refund. The fact they even refund one subscriber proves they know they messed up and that alone pretty much makes the almighty quoted EULA defunct. I do not think they failed on purpose but I do think they failed to refund all subscribers on purpose. Not sure if your join date reflects the amount of experience you have with WotC, if so then you will see this again and again. Glad to hear you got your refund though, next time you have to ask you will already know how to do it.
I think the belief that they did not update any of their products was not so they would not have to refund money; rather it could have been to ensure subscription renewals. This would not be the first time a company did something like this. Look at all the posts, Dark Sun was the most anticipated world setting in a loooonnng time. I have not played a game in that setting since my AD&D days and thoroughly enjoyed my stay during the last set of Encounters sessions.
From what I read from others, and myself included, it does appear rather coincidental that the update fail happens around the month(s) most subscriptions were up for renewal! But that could all just be conspiracy theory talk, thank goodness there are no black helicopters flying around my house. I might start believing such talk... But all this is just my opinion and thoughts on the matter in no way does it reflect the opinions of anyone that reads it.
They are giving out refunds, you just have to ask in a not so nice way.
Not true. I asked for mine in a very straightforward way, but in no way could it have been characterized as 'not so nice'. I asked in exactly the same tone as I would use in any other business correspondence.
The fact that they are even giving refunds because the update was delayed is extremely generous, but I think it is completely unnecessary. Where did this sense of entitlement come from, that people expect the latest and greatest "RITE NAO!!!1" with no thought to the fact that, perhaps there is a good reason it was delayed?
I won't deny I was disapointed when I couldn't build my dark sun character in the builder right when it came out, but does that mean I'm demanding my $10 for the month back? No! DDi is way more than the character builder, and way more than the most recent book to be released.
I'd rather they keep putting out quality books and products than get the tools updated within days of the content being released. You'll get your tools update, just learn to be patient. Oy vey!
I wish people would calm down about this! Yes they said it would be out Sept 7th, then the 23rd (or whatever the date was), and now its October. We aren't ENTITLED to updates because we are subscribers. Sure if the tools were never updated I probably wouldn't subscribe, but it isn't like we can't play for a month without a program to do the hard work for us. As a "newer" player myself, I actually found it instructive to build a Dark Sun character by hand rather than have the builder do it for me! But that is beside the point.
The fact that they are even giving refunds because the update was delayed is extremely generous, but I think it is completely unnecessary. Where did this sense of entitlement come from, that people expect the latest and greatest "RITE NAO!!!1" with no thought to the fact that, perhaps there is a good reason it was delayed?
I won't deny I was disapointed when I couldn't build my dark sun character in the builder right when it came out, but does that mean I'm demanding my $10 for the month back? No! DDi is way more than the character builder, and way more than the most recent book to be released.
I'd rather they keep putting out quality books and products than get the tools updated within days of the content being released. You'll get your tools update, just learn to be patient. Oy vey!
You're right, they don't legally owe us anything, just like a restaurant that serves me a hamburger an hour late doesn't owe me anything.
Maybe the burger took an hour because they kept deciding to put more ketchup on it, but ran out and had to drive across town to get some more.
Maybe I shouldn't complain because I should just go make my own hamburgers by hand, since that would be more instructive.
Maybe the meal also includes a pizza slice that they gave me to me on time and the meal was worthwhile just for the pizza slice.
Maybe I should be quiet because I'd rather they keep serving quality pizza than get my hamburger on time.
Maybe I should really just learn to be patient because, shoot, I did get it after an hour.
I have a question for you, do all the VCLs, Guides, etc. get free DDI accounts? Just wondering.
Being a VCL comes with a number of responsibilities. We are, whether we are employees of WotC or not, representatives of WotC. Often, we are the first ones that many forum users will encounter. We do a fair amount of collecting of data for WotC and scouring of the forums, in addition to the volunteer CM work that we do. In response, WotC gives to its VCLs a number of perks, including the occasional free WotC product. The details are, by request of WotC, considered semi-confidential matter, in no small part to keep applicants for VCL positions limited to those that want to do the job, not those that want free swag.
I personally think you and AsmodeusLore are not given enough to put up with the nonsense I often read on here. Thank you both for your level-headed responses and many efforts to help us out. I certainly appreciate it.
I've read a few posts pointing out that WotC could have failed to update on purpose, counting on the fact that everyone was not going to ask for a refund. That would be an evil thing to do, IMO. And that's a line that we shouldn't be crossing unless we have factual evidence, which is not the case, I reckon.Fact is they have done this before and they know how many people will ask for a refund. The fact they even refund one subscriber proves they know they messed up and that alone pretty much makes the almighty quoted EULA defunct. I do not think they failed on purpose but I do think they failed to refund all subscribers on purpose. Not sure if your join date reflects the amount of experience you have with WotC, if so then you will see this again and again. Glad to hear you got your refund though, next time you have to ask you will already know how to do it.
I think the belief that they did not update any of their products was not so they would not have to refund money; rather it could have been to ensure subscription renewals. This would not be the first time a company did something like this. Look at all the posts, Dark Sun was the most anticipated world setting in a loooonnng time. I have not played a game in that setting since my AD&D days and thoroughly enjoyed my stay during the last set of Encounters sessions.
From what I read from others, and myself included, it does appear rather coincidental that the update fail happens around the month(s) most subscriptions were up for renewal! But that could all just be conspiracy theory talk, thank goodness there are no black helicopters flying around my house. I might start believing such talk... But all this is just my opinion and thoughts on the matter in no way does it reflect the opinions of anyone that reads it.
I understand your point, WhtZombie, and I can't simply discard you may be right (I'm not a huge fan of big corporations in general and many of them are known to display dubious practices). But I would be more comfortable if these conspiracy theories were based on facts.
I'm positive that introducing Dark Sun and Essentials to DDI is no small task, and in my book that's a good reason for the failure. During peak periods here at EA they hire hundreds of new people, but even that can't prevent us from failing to deliver a few titles on schedule. it's only normal that the arguably small software team at WotC was overloaded with the sheer amount of work they were assigned during August and September (new hires can't usually do much to help, since they lack expertise and know-how).
However, I would be interested in hearing alternative reasons, as long as they are based on facts.
Just to let everyone know. I complained enough to both WotC Customer Service and Hasbro Customer Service that I got a refund for the month of September. They are giving out refunds, you just have to ask in a not so nice way. Let them know you are upset. If they have to give out too many refunds, maybe they will do something about getting products out on time or not announcing date deadlines to the Customers and then missing them.
Untrue. My request was polite and friendly and was attended in a quick and professional manner.
We aren't ENTITLED to updates because we are subscribers.
wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/insid...
"With access to every book and online article, the D&D Character Builder makes building and leveling your characters easier then ever before."
wizards.com/DnD/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/too...
"The D&D Character Builder searches the database for options appropriate to your character. Subscribers can make informed choices by "clicking" on each option and seeing the complete rules text for it."
Seriously!? Where do some people get off feeling ENTITLED to having a thing we pay for do what they say it will do?! When will people learn that you can just say whatever the heck you want in marketing material, over and over again, and then completely contradict yourself in an EULA that 95% of people will never read?! Bunch of whining...
Seriously!? Where do some people get off feeling ENTITLED to having a thing we pay for do what they say it will do?! When will people learn that you can just say whatever the heck you want in marketing material, over and over again, and then completely contradict yourself in an EULA that 95% of people will never read?! Bunch of whining...
LOL and not only do I whine but I bring along
I don't like the delays in the Updates. These changes didn't sneak up on anyone. We've know about themes and what they would entail since February, which has been plenty of time to start implementing them in the Character Builder. Ditto the MM3 delay, resulting from the new format which had been previewed months in advance as well.
This doesn't seem like an overall WotC problem but poor time management and goal setting on a departmental level; someone in DDI isn't getting the big changes started early enough or isn't paying attention to the release schedule of the books. There isn't enough cooperation between the departments, so the developers/designers of the game material can give the programmers and coders a heads-up of what they're planning.
I don't like it, but I can't get too upset. It sucks, it really does, but this is an anomaly.
We had a big player update with the new psionic rules that messed with how powers were picked and when. Then, three months later we had a change to monster statblocks AND a big influx of new monster content. Then two months later we had another two books with a massive influx of player content AND themes, followed the next month by another influx of PC content that also re-wrote the standard power distribution.
It's the worst case scenario for the team, working with a tool that wasn't designed to be as flexible as it's being pushed to be. They were obviously unprepared for what 2010 would entail, and their preparations were not enough. Hopefully they'll learn and we won't see delays like this when the other non-standard books come out in 2011.
If we get two-week delays at the release dates of those books, THEN we can really complain. It's one thing to stumble in a crunch, it's another not to learn from it.
That said, I think this thread has run its course and is just another toxic element to an already tense and divisive message board. It needs to be locked.
If you're unhappy ask for a refund. I did and I'll probably let my subscription expire, but I'm not going to lie and say I won't be back. I'll wait until they Update again then re-up (opposed to trusting their deadline like I did last month. Fool me once...). If you're not unhappy then good for you.
I personally think you and AsmodeusLore are not given enough to put up with the nonsense I often read on here. Thank you both for your level-headed responses and many efforts to help us out. I certainly appreciate it.
It is easy to level headed and happy with the world when you have no skin in the game. I get my electricity from solar cells, heck I am required to sell back my excess, so when the grid goes down around here due to old neglected equipment I am calm cool and collected. The neighbors all around me are fit to be tied and hot as blazes, it stays 100+ at night here in the desert during the summer. Myself, I am nice and cool watching local TV, had to switch to the antennae since Cox is on the power grid, I can even fire up my outdated character builder. I walk out every so often and listened to the others legitimately venting. I can sympathize with them but my calm demeanor is due to the fact I am unaffected by the event and nothing more.
That said, I think this thread has run its course and is just another toxic element to an already tense and divisive message board. It needs to be locked.
I say leave it open, otherwise someone will just start another and we can run around that one. Here it is all contained in one place. They shut one down already and this one popped up, it's like whack-a-mole....
I'll probably let my subscription expire, but I'm not going to lie and say I won't be back. I'll wait until they Update again then re-up.....
AMEN brother gonna do the same thing....
I personally think you and AsmodeusLore are not given enough to put up with the nonsense I often read on here. Thank you both for your level-headed responses and many efforts to help us out. I certainly appreciate it.
Being a VCL is more than simply knowing about the tools or the game. A large part of it is being able to see things from both sides, and understand both sides of a disagreement. Part of our jobs is to try to keep discussions from getting too heated or emotional.
Just because the lack of an update doesn't bother me, doesn't mean that I don't understand why the lack of an update bothers others. People are angry about this because they like the tools and have come to depend on them.
Being a VCL is more than simply knowing about the tools or the game. A large part of it is being able to see things from both sides, and understand both sides of a disagreement. Part of our jobs is to try to keep discussions from getting too heated or emotional.
Just because the lack of an update doesn't bother me, doesn't mean that I don't understand why the lack of an update bothers others. People are angry about this because they like the tools and have come to depend on them.
Dont' get me wrong; I don't have a problem with people being irritated or angry over the lack of an update this month. I just don't get the personal attacks that some people - not many - use to express themselves.
Untrue. My request was polite and friendly and was attended in a quick and professional manner.
My experience was similar - I politely requested a 1-month extension; they refused (explaining that for whatever reason that wasn't something they could do) but offered a 1-month refund instead. I accepted, they processed it, and the refund hit my bank within about 24 hours.
Is it really so bad to have to wait 1 month for new content on CB?
Man is that some new chaos theory math I missed? Last update was early August. Let me help ya... August to Sep = 1, Sep to Oct = 1 1 + 1 = 2.
Grow up!
Wow, I did not know my dad was on here. Thx pops you make the world so bright and happy. I am glad you decided to add your wonderful uplifting insight into all this.
Grow up!
Excuse me for not being "mature enough" for you. I was unaware I was supposed to follow whatever your standard for being a grown up is.
wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/insid...
"With access to every book and online article, the D&D Character Builder makes building and leveling your characters easier then ever before."
I must have missed the part of that sentence that said "access to every book and online article IMMEDIATELY". Access is coming, it is just taking more time than people hoped.
And yes, the EULA is what really matters. And it is for precisely this reason.
You're right, they don't legally owe us anything, just like a restaurant that serves me a hamburger an hour late doesn't owe me anything............
Actually it's more like going to a restaurant, ordering the hamburger, and them telling you "Sorry, we ran out tonight, but you could try our chicken club tonight and get the hamburger next time."
wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/insid...
"With access to every book and online article, the D&D Character Builder makes building and leveling your characters easier then ever before."
I must have missed the part of that sentence that said "access to every book and online article IMMEDIATELY". Access is coming, it is just taking more time than people hoped.
And yes, the EULA is what really matters. And it is for precisely this reason.
"IMMEDIATELY" isn't my problem. My problem is people saying the EULA says I'm not entitled to any updates, while everything they say to get us to pay for the service says I'll get updates. I really don't give a crap that it's late. I get pretty ticked off when the people who are supposed to be addressing are concerns basically say that they aren't required to give us anything at all, so we should quit complaining. They haven't used those exact words, but it's getting hard for me, as a generally happy DDI subscriber and self-described WotC fanboy, to not be put off by the way they're handling this.
D&D Insider Subscriber,
We will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. We plan to update the Character Builder in early October with changes to support Dark Sun and the Essentials. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,
The D&DI Team
Will you be offering a rebate or discount of some sort for the month of September? As it stands, I'm paying full price for diminished functionality.
The ONLY reason I subscribe to DDi is for the Chcaracter Builder updates........
Now I swear if they offered a lifetime subscription to DDi as payment for work rendered SOMEONE would voulenteer to add/fix old content like the missing diety information from the Forgotten Realms book for example and we'd probably have it within a couple weeks of said person getting the go-ahead.
I only say offering that as payment because they actually collect money for the character builder and there may be legal ramifications if someone actually did that work for free, and I'm sure some people would tackle adding text to make the program better for free if it was allowed!
And yes, the EULA is what really matters. And it is for precisely this reason.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the thing in the EULA about not guaranteeing updates is a fine defense if someone were petty/stupid enough to sue them over it. However, in terms of keeping customers satisfied with their product, it matters not a whit.
I'm really hoping the update comes soon, because it's a hassle enough remembering all my characters' feat and magic item interactions, and now I'll have to do it without an easy reference in the CB.
Is it just me or does the initial post from Trevor sound extremely automated and politician-ish in nature? (By politician-ish, I of course mean that its a bland answer that doesn't actually address the issue)
You be the judge: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1528-the-bullshit-of-outage-language
You be the judge: 37signals.com/svn/posts/1528-the-bullshi...
Great find, very apropos.... If WotC says if we pay them, they'll give us timely CB and compendium updates (not to mention the gaming table et al that WotC wishes we'd forget was a big part of their promotional package), why are we at fault for complaining?
They lied about the gaming table-they obviously had nothing close to it-and that's impossible to argue by a rational person.
They lied about timely updates. If the cb is a programming problem, what does that have to do with the compendium being updated?
As to the eula, what does that have to do with it? Is WotC covering their backsides with fine print really considered part of this conversation? Either we're discussing legality (or ethics) or whether people want to continue to spend their money. I thought it was the latter. I know I don't.
And to the programmers who complained about how hard this upgrade is: are you serious? You had this information several months ago. If you couldn't get it done, you should have asked somebody who could get it done to help you. If you knew it wasn't going to happen in September, (and you obviously knew well before that) why weren't we told? Not telling your customers that something is going to go wrong when you know it is, is deceit by omission.
I'm not interested in blame, I really would like to know when it likely will be though.
Daniel.
Do we have any sort of date for when the update may be? It's October in 3 days!
Soon.
Daniel.
... We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule ...
Seriously boys, its allmost two weeks now and there have been no changes to your schedule at all? I mean, you wanted to inform us of "any" changes, yet there has been not a single reply in this thread.
Since this seems to be a rather fix schedule you have here, do you mind telling us what this schedule includes in the first place?
To be honest, this looks a lot like "cut and run" to me. Sure this update will be finished one day or another, but the company did close to nothing to keep the "inconvenience" to a minimum, in terms of information management.
I've been trying for nearly TWO YEARS to get certain members to give it a chance, and it was finally agreed upon, providing we had a Dark Sun update by the promised secondary deadline. Well, done and gone.
I'll keep my subscription until the update finally does come through, then it's hasta la vista.
After all, there's always Runequest.
Yes, news would sincerely be appreciated, especially since this has completely SCUTTLED any chance whatsoever I had of getting my Friday gaming group to give 4E a shot.
I've been trying for nearly TWO YEARS to get certain members to give it a chance, and it was finally agreed upon, providing we had a Dark Sun update by the promised secondary deadline. Well, done and gone.
I'll keep my subscription until the update finally does come through, then it's hasta la vista.
After all, there's always Runequest.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB?
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB
I wouldn't consider it too jaw-droppingly odd. After all we all have different thresholds where we would consider a role playing game worthy our attention, some will stop at nothing to play while some will never be satisfied. There is a sliding scale in between those groups and there is where most of us are, and also the current D&D 4e threshold. Guest above simply was close to the threshold but not over it.
there's always Runequest.
Or may I suggest Pathfinder. With this apparent indifference for customer satisfaction or a quality control oversight or the "read the EULA" 
as others have pointed to and not necessarily what WotC is doing or not doing(edited for clarification). I have picked up a couple of books on Pathfinder and so far I likey. Oh and the ink does not smudge like the WotC ones tend to do.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB
I wouldn't consider it too jaw-droppingly odd. After all we all have different thresholds where we would consider a role playing game worthy our attention, some will stop at nothing to play while some will never be satisfied. There is a sliding scale in between those groups and there is where most of us are, and also the current D&D 4e threshold. Guest above simply was close to the threshold but not over it.
Maybe it's just me but I see a world of difference between, "We really don't want to try X because there are no electronic tools to support it." and "We no longer want to try X because the components that we want are delayed and aren't available electronically yet." The first I find is a valid reason for not trying whatever it was, the second just an excuse given to not try something you had no desire to try in the first place. Unless your saying "We won't try X till the tools are available" which would be a valid argument.
If they really want to try 4e DS, they don't really need the CB all they need is the campaign setting book. If no one has the book then they'll have to wait till the update is ready.
A week from today is the first Tuesday in October. Will you have a CB update for us or will we all be writing to complain again and get another refund for another month? I have already gotten one refund. I have already not bought any of your products for the month of September 2010. Will I not buy anything for October or November2010? Will I also ask all those I can contact not to buy products for October and November2010 and to also ask for a October2010 refund? Up to you. Please be more informative and up front and less dodgy/shady.
With this apparent indifference for customer satisfaction or a quality control oversight or the "read the EULA"
Can I ask that you edit the part about the EULA? WotC has never hid behind the EULA as an excuse for the snafu associated with the september update.
I regret that I was the one who originally pointed to the EULA as an excuse. It was really a sign of frustration on my part after dealing with a user who I thought had entitlement issues. It was not a good response for me to make. To make it worse, others have picked up that defense and repeated it. But worst of all, it is now being seen as WotC hiding behind the EULA, even though none of the people who have pointed to the EULA has been WotC employees.
With this apparent indifference for customer satisfaction or a quality control oversight or the "read the EULA"
Your inmplication that WotC is hiding behind the EULA to not do anything is greatly diminished by the fact that WotC is handing out refunds to those that ask for it.
But worst of all, it is now being seen as WotC hiding behind the EULA, even though none of the people who have pointed to the EULA has been WotC employees.
To be honest, it is rather hard for a company to hide behind their own EULA, if the only action they took so far was a general excuse followed by two weeks of ignoring the customers and doing the "ostrich" tactic.
Your inmplication that WotC is hiding behind the EULA to not do anything is greatly diminished
I was only using what others had put up as the defense for not updating their product. I use the tools I am given, or find laying about
. I personally feel they messed up somewhere and can give two rats about the customer base. As in the past all that is done is complaining and then we give them our money anyway, something they are counting on. Hoping, by releasing the material sometime next month, all will be forgotten. Well, as I have stated they will feel the minor pinch of my cancellation.by the fact that WotC is handing out refunds to those that ask for it.
IMHO the fact they are handing out refunds pretty much makes the case the EULA does not apply here. But that could only be proved in a frivolous lawsuit.
Yes, news would sincerely be appreciated, especially since this has completely SCUTTLED any chance whatsoever I had of getting my Friday gaming group to give 4E a shot.
I've been trying for nearly TWO YEARS to get certain members to give it a chance, and it was finally agreed upon, providing we had a Dark Sun update by the promised secondary deadline. Well, done and gone.
I'll keep my subscription until the update finally does come through, then it's hasta la vista.
After all, there's always Runequest.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB?
I can understand this. I think the CB has become critical to running a smooth 4E game at this point. Not necessary but definitely such a time saver that not having it could be a deal breaker.
My group did move ahead with running the Dark Sun adventures but we've had years of experience playing 4E (the 'normal' campaign we have has run since the release of 4E) so we're all pretty skilled at getting by without the CB. However, the CB greatly reduces the learning curve when moving to 4E from previous versions.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB
I wouldn't consider it too jaw-droppingly odd. After all we all have different thresholds where we would consider a role playing game worthy our attention, some will stop at nothing to play while some will never be satisfied. There is a sliding scale in between those groups and there is where most of us are, and also the current D&D 4e threshold. Guest above simply was close to the threshold but not over it.
Maybe it's just me but I see a world of difference between, "We really don't want to try X because there are no electronic tools to support it." and "We no longer want to try X because the components that we want are delayed and aren't available electronically yet." The first I find is a valid reason for not trying whatever it was, the second just an excuse given to not try something you had no desire to try in the first place. Unless your saying "We won't try X till the tools are available" which would be a valid argument.
If they really want to try 4e DS, they don't really need the CB all they need is the campaign setting book. If no one has the book then they'll have to wait till the update is ready.
Don't get me wrong on this, I am a D&Di subscriber and have spent much $$ on WotC products, so obviously I am not too unlike you, I suppose. I think you are reading too much of your own D&D affection into this however. As I said before, this is a sliding scale and each one of us is on a different place on this scale and we also value different things differently. E.g. my last group have evolved from a group of dungeon crawlers to non-combatants recently because we saw more fun in role playing at the moment, so we value intricate cities more than dangerous landscape at the moment. Were we to decide upon a product, playing without city tiles or intelligent NPC:s despite being promised them would have been a deal breaker in our world.
Like jwmaynar says, some things are critical to start playing a new game for some players but not for others, a working Character Builder happens to be critical for our Guest. My guess is that there are other things holding them back as well but that they were willing to sacrifice them to some degree if and only if CB would have been updated. I know for sure I have made that decision with other games and products. For example, I also play L5R and the thing that got me to buy the new (4th) edition was the better copy writing, I had seriously considered not buying the new edition because the third was such a wreck in that regard. This despite the fact that I like the system, love the setting and enjoy many other parts of the game. Others would no doubt have bought it bad copy writing or not.
There is no electronic support for 4e DS, so for Guest that situation is not any different from "there will be support in the future". If Guest was hoping to start a campaign but has to do something different because multiple delays I can definitely sympathise, perhaps there was a second alternative that was almost as tempting as Dark Sun, now for Guest and Guest's friends that product became much more tangible and tempting, perhaps much more so than 4e DS. After all, we can't suggest Guest and friends sit and wait, rolling their thumbs, waiting for something when they could be role playing.
To be perfectly frank I think that he has a couple 4e haters in his group (which is perfectly fine). He's been trying to get them to try 4e and with DS he finally got a carrot that they grudgingly accepted too. If he has the DSCB, you can quite easily create a character (save for a mul or Trikreen) using what we have now in the CB and just write out your theme and wild talent on a separate piece of paper, no big deal unless you make it. It also isn't that hard to find something to do in the meantime if you genuinely want to give 4e a try and wait for the updated stuff.
there's always Runequest.Or may I suggest Pathfinder. With this apparent indifference for customer satisfaction or a quality control oversight or the "read the EULA" as others have pointed to and not necessarily what WotC is doing or not doing(edited for clarification). I have picked up a couple of books on Pathfinder and so far I likey. Oh and the ink does not smudge like the WotC ones tend to do.
Um, no.
Pathfinder's Alpha and beta playtest versions were nice improvements over the power disparity of 3.0 & 3.5, but then the "finished" produst came out and they crammed all the CoDzilla crap back into the game.
If I'm not playing D&D 4E or Conan (the best variant of Fantasy D20 besides 4E), I'll avoid the knock-offs too, and go to another system that no-one in our group has any hard feelings about.
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post but are you saying that your group won't try 4e anymore because of a delay in updating the CB
I wouldn't consider it too jaw-droppingly odd. After all we all have different thresholds where we would consider a role playing game worthy our attention, some will stop at nothing to play while some will never be satisfied. There is a sliding scale in between those groups and there is where most of us are, and also the current D&D 4e threshold. Guest above simply was close to the threshold but not over it.
Maybe it's just me but I see a world of difference between, "We really don't want to try X because there are no electronic tools to support it." and "We no longer want to try X because the components that we want are delayed and aren't available electronically yet." The first I find is a valid reason for not trying whatever it was, the second just an excuse given to not try something you had no desire to try in the first place. Unless your saying "We won't try X till the tools are available" which would be a valid argument.
If they really want to try 4e DS, they don't really need the CB all they need is the campaign setting book. If no one has the book then they'll have to wait till the update is ready.
Don't get me wrong on this, I am a D&Di subscriber and have spent much $$ on WotC products, so obviously I am not too unlike you, I suppose. I think you are reading too much of your own D&D affection into this however. As I said before, this is a sliding scale and each one of us is on a different place on this scale and we also value different things differently. E.g. my last group have evolved from a group of dungeon crawlers to non-combatants recently because we saw more fun in role playing at the moment, so we value intricate cities more than dangerous landscape at the moment. Were we to decide upon a product, playing without city tiles or intelligent NPC:s despite being promised them would have been a deal breaker in our world.
Like jwmaynar says, some things are critical to start playing a new game for some players but not for others, a working Character Builder happens to be critical for our Guest. My guess is that there are other things holding them back as well but that they were willing to sacrifice them to some degree if and only if CB would have been updated. I know for sure I have made that decision with other games and products. For example, I also play L5R and the thing that got me to buy the new (4th) edition was the better copy writing, I had seriously considered not buying the new edition because the third was such a wreck in that regard. This despite the fact that I like the system, love the setting and enjoy many other parts of the game. Others would no doubt have bought it bad copy writing or not.
There is no electronic support for 4e DS, so for Guest that situation is not any different from "there will be support in the future". If Guest was hoping to start a campaign but has to do something different because multiple delays I can definitely sympathise, perhaps there was a second alternative that was almost as tempting as Dark Sun, now for Guest and Guest's friends that product became much more tangible and tempting, perhaps much more so than 4e DS. After all, we can't suggest Guest and friends sit and wait, rolling their thumbs, waiting for something when they could be role playing.
Cathak, points well taken but he did say that he's been trying to get his game group to give 4e a try for 2 years now. That's well prior to any mention of DS, so like I said I think it has more to do with giving 4e a try than the CB being late in this case.
To be perfectly frank I think that he has a couple 4e haters in his group (which is perfectly fine). He's been trying to get them to try 4e and with DS he finally got a carrot that they grudgingly accepted too. If he has the DSCB, you can quite easily create a character (save for a mul or Trikreen) using what we have now in the CB and just write out your theme and wild talent on a separate piece of paper, no big deal unless you make it. It also isn't that hard to find something to do in the meantime if you genuinely want to give 4e a try and wait for the updated stuff.
Actually, you're BOTH right. We have some players who've been fighting changing to 4E tooth-and-nail, and Dark Sun was the thing that convinced them to give it a try...tenuously, that is. BUT, they wanted the CB update so as to make the character creation easier, since my wife and our daughter are the only ones in the group with familiarity of 4E.
(That being said, given the new Wild Talent and Character Themes rules, even I am looking rather askance at the math for character creation without the CB update.)
I guess I'll have to satsfy myself with only one D&D game every other week with our Saturday group, since the grognard-storm of two years ago left a sour taste in my mouth for 3.x and I really liked the more elegant design of 4E (especially with the Power splatbooks out and the Races books being issued.)... which will take another 4 months or so, as right now my wife is running Exalted 2E on Saturdays.
A written letter requires a great deal more personal effort than does a n email or a forum posting. Again, that is not to say that they do not carry weight, however a written letter carries more weight.How is it a written letter carries more weight? I have a circular file that sits near my desk that is just as effective as the delete key on my keyboard. That does not even account for the postal delivery service even making it to the proper address.
It carries more weight because it requires more effort to put together and therefore indicates a stronger feeling on the matter than an e-mail or forum posting that can be thrown together in a minute or less. I will often forget about things that I post electronically -- but I do not forget about the few physical letters that I write. If you go to the extra trouble to send a certified letter (thereby guaranteeing that you know if and when your letter gets there), it would carry even more weight -- but the only way they would not pay attention to a physical letter is in the relatively rare case that it does not get to them. I think the only thing you could do that would carry more weight than a physical letter would be if you walked back and forth in front of the company building with a sign.
It carries more weight because it requires more effort to put together and therefore indicates a stronger feeling on the matter than an e-mail or forum posting
OH I get it now; your talking about the person who wrote the letter it carries more weight to them. I hope you are not assuming WotC takes written letters with higher regard? You do realize there are companies out there that make a living shredding letters, right?
Like I stated before the circular file works just as well as the delete key. Sorry to break the news to ya but your letter makes no more a ripple then a forum post or an email.
It carries more weight because it requires more effort to put together and therefore indicates a stronger feeling on the matter than an e-mail or forum postingOH I get it now; your talking about the person who wrote the letter it carries more weight to them. I hope you are not assuming WotC takes written letters with higher regard? You do realize there are companies out there that make a living shredding letters, right?
Like I stated before the circular file works just as well as the delete key. Sorry to break the news to ya but your letter makes no more a ripple then a forum post or an email.
I was referring to the effort by the sender because it shows how strongly the customer feels about the issue -- and it also raises the likelihood that many others felt the same way but did not get around to writing.
The ease with which a message can be disposed of has no reflection on whether it is in fact disposed of. Any company will want to know how their customers feel about their product -- and written letters will get more attention partly because of the additional effort required to write them and partly because there are fewer of them. They won't simply throw out paper letters unless they have very good reason to believe that nobody who handwrites a letter to them would ever buy their product
Sorry to break the news to ya but your letter makes no more a ripple then a forum post or an email.
Explain how you actually know this to be true for WotC - or any other office, for that matter.
Explain how you actually know this to be true for WotC - or any other office, for that matter.
Right after you explain how you know it to be a fact that it does make a difference for WotC....
Oh my... I now have my belief confirmed. One cannot discuss something with a fanboi. We can just drop this pointless discussion.... 
Sorry to break the news to ya but your letter makes no more a ripple then a forum post or an email.
Explain how you actually know this to be true for WotC - or any other office, for that matter.
I don't work for WotC, but I open the mail in my office and field most of the emails. I actually pay more attention to emails. They're usually from people at the home office or people we already do business with. Snail mail is usually a bill, junk, or comes in a payment remittance envelope.
So do we actually have a date yet, it's not even on the calander for October!!!
It's not on the calendar because they either failed their diplomacy (DC 12) check or they do not know a good estimate when it will be done.
So do we actually have a date yet, it's not even on the calander for October!!!
It's not on the calendar because they either failed their diplomacy (DC 12) check or they do not know a good estimate when it will be done.
Haha, yeah....
But seriously, how hard is it to get a hold of a staff member and have them make a non automated message. At this point I don't care if it's a sorry or not. How about a, "Hi" or a picture of one or more of the staff members holding a sign saying, "sorry for the wait". I mean honestly, the guides are doing a great job at keeping the peace but this situation is best represented by this friend scenario:
Let's say you have a friend (who knows, you could be a hermit, and we all know someone will pick apart this post given the chance... might as well not start with the first sentence). Now this friend decides to tell you that the two of you should see a movie. The movie is so awesome, you guys have the best time ever, then you find out that the sequel is coming out, you both become ecstatic. You're like, "Alright, let's do this next month, same time same place, hell I'll even put my money down on it! Sweet, I bought my ticket I'm ready to roll." Now the month goes by, plenty of time to plan for the day but let's say your friend gets sick and can't go, though he promises that he will go when he gets better, he guesses that it will be around a particular date, not quite a month. You agree, kinda look a bit sad, your awesome friends not doing well, you missed out on a awesome movie and lost some money in the process. Now you're going to give your friend the benefit of the doubt, you think that he'll be better around that time, so you buy the tickets ahead of time again thinking you'll surprise him with them. When that date rolls around you go to surprise him with the tickets, so you go up to his house and see him watching TV, fully clothed, eating some cereal, so you go up to the door and knock on it telling him that you're totally stoked to see this movie. Then your friend kinda scratches his head and tells you that he can't because he's still sick. Now you're kinda wondering to yourself, "Hmmm, sick for about a month? well I guess it could be plausible... but dammit I spent money on this again..." so you reluctantly say your goodbye, turn to leave then quickly turn around and remember to ask when he can hang out again so you guys can see this awesome sequel to the awesome movie. As the doors closing he kinda mumbles through the door, "Probably in like a week or 2, I don't know" and shuts it. Now as your walking away from his house, pretty distraught, you notice through the window he is now working out to a workout video on his TV, while looking pretty spry. Kind of pondering a thought passes through your mind "usually people take it easy when they are sick, could he have been lying to me? ... Nah... well since the last day to see the movie in theaters is in 2 weeks I guess I'll pay for it again. It would be totally worth it to hang out with him again and watch the next awesome movie with him!" so you do. You pay for the movie...
Now here's where we're at... quite a few people have paid for the movie, the people that are in it for the long haul.
Now if the friend was lying, he should of told you, if he was sick he could of told you with what, hell maybe you're a doctor and could of helped, who knows. Oh wait, I know that answer, the friend does, because friends listen and care.
Can't believe I just typed that... have fun everyone.
Can't believe I just typed that... have fun everyone.
That is a heck of a metaphor... but I have to ask why it is that so few folks are seeing the situation the way I, looking in from the "outside" see it.
I see complaints of "why haven't they told us anything?" - and I see WotC posts that say "Sorry guys, update is coming along a bit slow... we should have it out in about 3 more weeks." and "Alright, so this is taking longer than expected, sorry again. We'll let you know when we know when it will be ready."
To metaphor it up a bit:
A carpenter is building you a sweet entertainment center - it's going to look a lot like your old one, but with some new features to it and a fresh coat of polish. You've agreed on the price, and paid in advance - he lets you know two things in a very up front way: He expects it done on the 7th, and his carpentry business isn't just him working, and they aren't JUST building your entertainment center (To be clear, WotC set the update date in the calender, and it's obvious they are working on multiple projects at once).
It get time to pick up your entertainment center, and the carpenter says "Sorry, it's going to take longer than expected." and let's you know that he figures it'll be done around the 21st. You, reasonably I might add, say "alright, I understand how a custom job like this could be tricky," and leave him to his work.
21st rolls around and it turns out the carpenter is saying "Sorry, still not coming along as quickly as I had planned... how about I just give you a call when I know for sure when to have you come pick it up.? It will probably be done in early October." You really can't do much about this frustrating delay, but at least the carpenter gives back the money you spent - you can pay him when he actually finishes.
You then wait until October 1st... when you begin calling the carpenter many times a day asking "is it done yet?" and, letting your frustration get the best of you, sighing heavily and dropping "Guess I'll just call back in November." Simultaneously trying to distract the employees of the carpentry business by insisting they speak with you, and being frustrated that they haven't finished your entertainment center yet.
It reminds me of a kid sitting in the back seat of a car during a road trip asking "Are we there yet?" every 5 minutes - at first the parent might say "No, not yet, still more than 2 hour to go, buddy," but after about the first 20 minutes of "are we there yet?" the parent stops saying how long is left and starts trying to stop the question from being asked again because the answer (not yet) hasn't changed, so they say "I'll let you know when we are close."
The parent hopes the child will sit and await the "Alright, only another 10 minutes, we are almost there," but it never happens... I don't know which behavior I find more silly.
@AaronOfBarbaria, you mean this message? That is the friend variant of calling when you are already late and quickly hanging up, leaving your friends with a "wtf is up?"
I guess my career in customer service of different varieties (food service - both as a cook and interacting with the customers, and a variety of retail and phone based customer service) allows me an insight into what the words used by a representative of a business actually mean and why they are chosen.
I see the message more as the equivalent of a friend calling up and saying "Hey man, can't make it today... gotta run." and then hanging up, leaving you wondering what's up - but the alternative very well could have been "Hey man, gotta cancel our plans today so that I have time to get your surprise party ready, hope you understand."
Just because we don't know exactly what is happening doesn't mean that expecting the worst is the correct course of action.
@AaronOfBarbaria, you mean this message? That is the friend variant of calling when you are already late and quickly hanging up, leaving your friends with a "wtf is up?"
I guess my career in customer service of different varieties (food service - both as a cook and interacting with the customers, and a variety of retail and phone based customer service) allows me an insight into what the words used by a representative of a business actually mean and why they are chosen.
I see the message more as the equivalent of a friend calling up and saying "Hey man, can't make it today... gotta run." and then hanging up, leaving you wondering what's up - but the alternative very well could have been "Hey man, gotta cancel our plans today so that I have time to get your surprise party ready, hope you understand."
Just because we don't know exactly what is happening doesn't mean that expecting the worst is the correct course of action.
It does make it cooler if they DO surprise us with something.
@AaronOfBarbaria, you mean this message? That is the friend variant of calling when you are already late and quickly hanging up, leaving your friends with a "wtf is up?"
I guess my career in customer service of different varieties (food service - both as a cook and interacting with the customers, and a variety of retail and phone based customer service) allows me an insight into what the words used by a representative of a business actually mean and why they are chosen.
I see the message more as the equivalent of a friend calling up and saying "Hey man, can't make it today... gotta run." and then hanging up, leaving you wondering what's up - but the alternative very well could have been "Hey man, gotta cancel our plans today so that I have time to get your surprise party ready, hope you understand."
Just because we don't know exactly what is happening doesn't mean that expecting the worst is the correct course of action.
I would love that. However considering that my friend has promised to hold parties in the past and a barbecue without the music I consider this surprise party you hint at unlikely.
There are multiple alternatives, a few of them are:
- A clearer explanation of what actually went wrong.
- Keep a customer service representative checking in on the forum now and then.
- Update the calendar. Heck, this could be used to WotC advantage, if they say a late October date but manage to deliver early – and surprise! Happy customers and there was much rejoicing, and beer and dancing and roaring fires…
- Send an e-mail so customers don't have to search to forum for information why the service they were waiting for never appeared.
- Not hiding behind customer service as a developer. Having an actual person who knows the work required respond is bound to alleviate some some tension.
There are multiple alternatives, a few of them are:
- A clearer explanation of what actually went wrong.
- Keep a customer service representative checking in on the forum now and then.
- Update the calendar. Heck, this could be used to WotC advantage, if they say a late October date but manage to deliver early – and surprise! Happy customers and there was much rejoicing, and beer and dancing and roaring fires…
- Send an e-mail so customers don't have to search to forum for information why the service they were waiting for never appeared.
- Not hiding behind customer service as a developer. Having an actual person who knows the work required respond is bound to alleviate some some tension.
To respond to each of these playing a bit of a devil's advocate sort of role, consider each bullet point numbered.
1) Any explanation of what went wrong would put a number of people at ease, moments of relieved tension as they say "Oh, that explains it... thanks for letting me know." It would also put a number of people even more on edge, giving them some specific event/person to throw fits about/at.
Neither choice (explanation or not) actually changes anything - bottom line, there is a delay and that causes frustration among the community.
2) A customer service rep dropping in with updates, even constant "we are working on it, let you know as we get more info." might give some people a bit of reassurance... it also creates the illusion that the company has people with time enough to mess around on the internet, but yet still hasn't gotten the update taken care of.
Yes, customer service has nothing to do with the tool updates. Yes, I know that there is no way for that hypothetical customer service rep dropping updates to actually do anything personally about the tool situation - but while a person is reasonably and intelligent, people constantly misunderstand, over-react, and even panic.
3) Odd how the cause of the problem is also the solution to the problem. The problem is that what WotC said turned out not to be true - the update wasn't ready the 7th, nor the 21st. Encouraging the company to "lie better by doing it on purpose" to avoid the frustration caused by instead lying accidentally when their expectations for themselves are not met... not the greatest plan, if you ask me.
4) I agree. There should have been announcements in the way there were, and accompanied emails sent to each subscriber saying "sorry, we had to change our update schedule," with a link to more info.
5) An actual person who knows the work that needs done being able to respond... not a great idea. Sure, in theory it could alleviate some tension - it could also cause more tension.
A person frustrated by not knowing what's going on is bad, but what about a person who knows what's going on and then thinks "Well I could handle that! Why are you guys having a problem, you some sort of amateurs?" If you ask me, that's worse... like the time I had to explain to a customer while I worked at a lumber yard that the reason we had to wait was because the forklift certified employee was at lunch. The customer could drive a forklift, I can drive a forklift, but neither of us could do so legally because I didn't have the proper papers - and he wasn't an employee of the lumber yard.
Him knowing we were waiting on the guy to do the job, even though it was a job he himself could do - yeah... didn't alleviate tension one bit. It made it worse.
There are multiple alternatives, a few of them are:
- A clearer explanation of what actually went wrong.
- Keep a customer service representative checking in on the forum now and then.
- Update the calendar. Heck, this could be used to WotC advantage, if they say a late October date but manage to deliver early – and surprise! Happy customers and there was much rejoicing, and beer and dancing and roaring fires…
- Send an e-mail so customers don't have to search to forum for information why the service they were waiting for never appeared.
- Not hiding behind customer service as a developer. Having an actual person who knows the work required respond is bound to alleviate some some tension.
To respond to each of these playing a bit of a devil's advocate sort of role, consider each bullet point numbered.
1) Any explanation of what went wrong would put a number of people at ease, moments of relieved tension as they say "Oh, that explains it... thanks for letting me know." It would also put a number of people even more on edge, giving them some specific event/person to throw fits about/at.
Neither choice (explanation or not) actually changes anything - bottom line, there is a delay and that causes frustration among the community.
Which explains why so many are asking for, grasping for, any signs of life from WotC. Yes it changes much in the relation to their customers. You, considering your stated merits, should know this better than most. I read that the number one cause of frustration among stuck travellers when Iceland decided to go all smoke and ash on Europe was not the delays or refunds or sleeping in makeshift camps eating preheated food at the gates but rather the lack of contact with the airlines and governments and what are they doing to get us home via alternative routes. Staying was not the problem, the problem was lack of transparency.
2) A customer service rep dropping in with updates, even constant "we are working on it, let you know as we get more info." might give some people a bit of reassurance... it also creates the illusion that the company has people with time enough to mess around on the internet, but yet still hasn't gotten the update taken care of.
Yes, customer service has nothing to do with the tool updates. Yes, I know that there is no way for that hypothetical customer service rep dropping updates to actually do anything personally about the tool situation - but while a person is reasonably and intelligent, people constantly misunderstand, over-react, and even panic.
Which explains why the only way to contact WotC on this site to ask questions about the system/purchases/subscriptions/faq/this very delay is through customer support. No, wait… Are you seriously playing this card, even as a devil's advocate? Like, if one person among a large staff can not spare ten minutes every two days or so? Can the customer service rep not spare five minutes now and then to ask the developer lead or any other developer on their progress? Can not the developer spend ten to fifteen minutes explaining to the customer service representative who in turn can not spend ten minutes on a mail, news post, blog post, or forum post? If they can't then they are seriously under-staffed and need to tell the Hasbro that they need a bigger staff. 11 foot at the very least. Probably 12. Done yesterday, made of Cardboard Tube from the cold dead hands of CTS.
Another point to contemplate using this defense: WotC is an internet age company, they have a big internet presence and when they communicate they do so primarily via electronic means such as Twitter (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8, spent five minutes on Google to find those), never mind this community site. Not having a presence on their very own community site is being irresponsible and should almost be grounds for handing out pink slips. Which might actually explain a thing or two why progress is slow…
Need… Larger… Cardboard… Tubes…
I am informally required to join and regularly check in on my company's facebook profile (we have no community of our own) and we have written permission to surf the web, check twitter, facebook and post on the internet in general as long as we behave as if representatives of our company and don't take too much time from our main projects. Perhaps this will come back and bite us later, perhaps this only works at my company. At least it is currently working like a charm, which is why I hope it might actually work for WotC.
3) Odd how the cause of the problem is also the solution to the problem. The problem is that what WotC said turned out not to be true - the update wasn't ready the 7th, nor the 21st. Encouraging the company to "lie better by doing it on purpose" to avoid the frustration caused by instead lying accidentally when their expectations for themselves are not met... not the greatest plan, if you ask me.
Following this line of reason Trevor "lied" in the first post of this thread because he gave a date, why not add it to the calendar also? At least that way I wouldn't have been as angry as I am now, having to dig deep to find this thread. Once again I was forced to scour the forum for more info when on 1 oct what Trevor said was not in the calendar. Excellent service, making the customer work and making the customer even angrier. I gave an example where I would definitely be happier and thought that perhaps other customers would be too, but perhaps I am mistaking.
5) An actual person who knows the work that needs done being able to respond... not a great idea. Sure, in theory it could alleviate some tension - it could also cause more tension.
A person frustrated by not knowing what's going on is bad, but what about a person who knows what's going on and then thinks "Well I could handle that! Why are you guys having a problem, you some sort of amateurs?" If you ask me, that's worse... like the time I had to explain to a customer while I worked at a lumber yard that the reason we had to wait was because the forklift certified employee was at lunch. The customer could drive a forklift, I can drive a forklift, but neither of us could do so legally because I didn't have the proper papers - and he wasn't an employee of the lumber yard.
Him knowing we were waiting on the guy to do the job, even though it was a job he himself could do - yeah... didn't alleviate tension one bit. It made it worse.
I have multiple experiences to the contrary, where more and accurate information have been the the very thing that relieved stress and have undone tough situations.
I have today not even worked even 18 months at a 30k company, but we manage to solve technical frustration among our customers by passing on questions from first line support to actual tech people (technicians, or in my case, developers) and it works like a charm because the support personnel does not have to guess what we are doing and we can get first hand information regarding the issues our customers face. You can hear by their voices that they appreciate talking to someone who is actually responsible for their software working as it should. I have on more than one occasion received flowers from someone I spent less than ten minutes talking to. This just by being courteous and trying to respond to the customers problem. Not every time has the problem been easy or quick to fix, but every time we answer a question this way we get respect in return even if we have to tell our customers the bad news that they have to stand the issue for a while longer while we sort things out.
If I am at a restaurant I expect the service personnel to update me why our steaks are late, late and late again (even if that update is blunt and with bad news that I have to wait a little longer). I also expect to be able to ask the chef what is happening to our steaks, after all he is making the same steak for everyone and has had the recipe for many months now. I expect to be able to ask the chef this because the service personnel does not know why the chef is running late or the service personnel is not telling us why.
Would you like additional alternatives/courses of action to defend?
Sorry for putting so much pressure on you WOTC, I was being selfish.
You are a quadraplegic who pays for a maid service. They are supposed to come once a month and do a deep clean on the house, which you can't do because you have no functional limbs. They come in the beginning of August, and clean your house nice and spiffy clean.
September rolls around and they tell you that they have some other clients that are taking precedence over cleaning your house, but they should get to it towards the end of the month. That kinda sucks, because now you're looking at a month and a half or more of dirty build-up before they can come and take care of business.
The end of September comes around and they call you to tell you they aren't going to be able to come until early in October, but they don't know when. But you already paid for September, and you are on a pre-paid schedule that automatically pays for the maid service for a year (or for three months at a time, or each month), but they insist that unless you pay for the month of October, you won't get the cleaning that you never got in September, even though you already paid for it.
So now you have to scoot your motorized wheelchair through 2 months of mess in your house, and things are really looking dirty, and you don't know when the maid will come, because they won't answer your phone calls or emails. You're not even sure if they WILL clean the house, because they are working all the time on the other clients' homes, because they'll make more money there, even though you keep paying them for the cleaning of your house.
Alright, I'll see your Buddy Movie Metaphor, and your Carpenter Entertainment Center Metaphor and raise you one:
You are a quadraplegic who pays for a maid service. They are supposed to come once a month and do a deep clean on the house, which you can't do because you have no functional limbs. They come in the beginning of August, and clean your house nice and spiffy clean.
September rolls around and they tell you that they have some other clients that are taking precedence over cleaning your house, but they should get to it towards the end of the month. That kinda sucks, because now you're looking at a month and a half or more of dirty build-up before they can come and take care of business.
The end of September comes around and they call you to tell you they aren't going to be able to come until early in October, but they don't know when. But you already paid for September, and you are on a pre-paid schedule that automatically pays for the maid service for a year (or for three months at a time, or each month), but they insist that unless you pay for the month of October, you won't get the cleaning that you never got in September, even though you already paid for it.
So now you have to scoot your motorized wheelchair through 2 months of mess in your house, and things are really looking dirty, and you don't know when the maid will come, because they won't answer your phone calls or emails. You're not even sure if they WILL clean the house, because they are working all the time on the other clients' homes, because they'll make more money there, even though you keep paying them for the cleaning of your house.
Genious, anyone else have one? Maybe we can get one that will just charm wizards enough to say something to it's customer base.
I see the message more as the equivalent of a friend calling up and saying "Hey man, can't make it today... gotta run." and then hanging up, leaving you wondering what's up - but the alternative very well could have been "Hey man, gotta cancel our plans today so that I have time to get your surprise party ready, hope you understand."
Just because we don't know exactly what is happening doesn't mean that expecting the worst is the correct course of action.
normally, i'm not a fan of metaphors or analogies on internet forums, but I actually like this one.
Creating a character is a sometimes lengthy process consulting multiple rules across several documents, comparing several options to arrive at the best one for your needs, entering information in designated spaces on an established form, and performing simple mathematics.
In other words, it's like doing your taxes.
The Character Builder is TurboTax. It makes the process of consulting those various forms, incorporating the latest tax law, and finding the best solution for the maximum refund (or minimum tax liability) quick and clean, for a small fee.
However, when TurboTax isn't ready for the current tax year, I don't pay for it. Likewise, when the CB failed to come into compliance with the latest "tax year," I says to myself, "Self," I says, "I wonder if there's a way you can not pay for that, since it's not going to help you do this year's taxes?" So I asked, and in fact, there was.
If Customer Service had said, "No, unfortunately we cannot offer a refund or an extension. We attempt to provide updates monthly but we do not guarantee it." I would have emailed back, "Thank you for looking into the matter." Instead, they gave me six bucks.
I am getting more and more disappointed as time goes by. It has been two months and the update is not listed on the calendar still. While people are discussing this as no update to the CB, I should note that this also means no update to the Compendium nor the Monster Builder. While I rarely use the Monster Builder, I use the Compendium and Character Builder often. However, since the Compendium doesn't carry the updated information since August 3rd (and the Rules Compendium and Dark Sun came out after that) and there have been extensive rule changes and additions, that is no longer as useful. The character builder, which I was hoping to use for the creation of my character for Encounters, both Dark Sun (which is obviously impossible now) and with the current Essentials series.
Once again, it is a scavenger hunt to try and find information on this. I have received no e-mail or other communication telling me when this will be remedied and what is the plan for the release. So far, the communication with their customers on this major issue has been abysmal.
Many have said that we are getting Dragon and Dungeon so we should simply stop whining about it. I say that, if my major reason for subscribing is for the updated electronic tools and if those tools are not updated, then I am not getting what I wanted to.
However, both sides seem to love their analogies. I might as well throw my own into the arena.
It seems as if DDI is like a pizza place. After regularly getting pizza from them for months, suddenly, instead of a pepperoni pizza, I get a box with with base crust and the sauce. When I call, DDI pizza, I am told that I would get extra cheese and pepperoni in my order next time. After I grumble a bit to myself, I try to order from DDI pizza and once again, I get the crust and the sauce. After another phone call, I find out that they won't get more cheese and pepperoni until the beginning of the following month (sometime).
It could be that, on the following month, I will get a triple-stacked pizza with lots of cheese and pepperoni. However, that doesn't change the fact that I got nothing but crust and sauce twice now with no forewarning. While the crust and sauce may be considered integral parts of the pizza, it isn't much without the cheese and pepperoni.
Creating a character is a sometimes lengthy process consulting multiple rules across several documents, comparing several options to arrive at the best one for your needs, entering information in designated spaces on an established form, and performing simple mathematics.
In other words, it's like doing your taxes.
I think it might be even tougher than doing your taxes. How many books and Dragon articles might be revelant to creating a character these days? If your answer is not "too much to easily create a good character by hand" then you haven't been making the most use of your DDI subscription (either that or you have a great photographic memory).
Should I cancel my service, I would retain the use of the Character Builder with the updates that had been delivered up until that time. However, with new materials being published all the time, its usefulness would rapidly diminish.
The ongoing value of the Character Builder is in it being regularly updated to reflect the current rules base of the game. Right now, I have a version that is exactly as useful as if I had cancelled my service in early August.
Since we are paying for this, and they are not delivering on their schedule, they need to err on the side of overcommunication. It's basic customer service that you at least keep the customer informed when you miss dates.
Information is not only hard to find when it does exist, it's frequently not available at all.
Maybe it's not that they're staffed by less knowledgeable IT personnel. Maybe it's not that they have a skeleton crew devoted to this. Maybe it's not a deliberate delay to encourage sales of hard copy. Maybe it's not a result of poor project management. Honestly, I don't even expect to find the answers to why this occurred.
I would be rather pleased, though, to receive some hard dates regarding update deployment. I would appreciate details on which sources will be included when.
Ultimately, we're paying for this. You can put provisions in the EULA that you're ultimately not responsible for much of anything, but when the service isn't delivered in a useful way, there's less of an incentive for the customer to purchase the service.
Failing to deliver and then failing to show the basic respect and consideration of reasonable communication will induce many to cancel. I know that I will make my decision based on what happens in the next few weeks. I have derived a lot of value from my subscription in the past, but there's a fine line between patient loyalty and being a sucker.
with new materials being published all the time, its usefulness would rapidly diminish.................but there's a fine line between patient loyalty and being a sucker.
And for that reason I will be subscribing whenever the content I am using is stale. One month sub update my CB, rinse and repeat as needed.
If they keep the rest of the info coming out like the Essentials material, that spoon feed build method does not even require the CB, I can skip the future updates.
with new materials being published all the time, its usefulness would rapidly diminish.................but there's a fine line between patient loyalty and being a sucker.And for that reason I will be subscribing whenever the content I am using is stale. One month sub update my CB, rinse and repeat as needed.
If they keep the rest of the info coming out like the Essentials material, that spoon feed build method does not even require the CB, I can skip the future updates.
Agreed. My suscription ran out on September 21st and I'm not going to be shelling out money for a new one until the CB update is announced and ready to go. I will be getting a new subscription the same day and most certainly not for a full year this time. Maybe three months, just for Gamma World and other sundries up to and including December. But I'm in no hurry to renew because there's no reason to renew. I have the books, magazines and builder as-is, up to date, ready to go and I use them. I can reference books for anything that's not in the electronic materials. I can do the legwork through books to make characters again, and in fact have to for Dark Sun characters. So I'm just saying, if you're unhappy then cancel and don't renew until there's something you want.
Why didn't we just get an update earlier with the Psionic Power information? That addition wouldn't have required any of the resturcturing that both Dark Sun and Essentials do. Would have provided for the needs of at least some of the paying customers. As an additional note to this I was told by the customer service rep who put me in for my september refund that PP isn't even included in the next update that they are working on. So at what point in the process did it just get tossed aside?
My apologies for my bad English, it's not my native tongue.
I ask, why you guys from WoTC won't publish a part of the Update for the hungry wolves. You want to update everything at the same date, but it is harder for everyone, it is like a cupboard, you carry it in pieces and not in one piece, 'cause it will be bulky and you take to much time to not destroy the cupboard, the walls or your other furniture.
My apologies for my bad English, it's not my native tongue.
Probably because the update started with Dark Sun (themes), then added in Psionic Power, then Essentials... The problems started with themes, and were compounded by Essentials. Psionic Power's in the middle, so to just get the easy one in, they'd have to start all over on the update... So the plan is plow onwards until it all works, especially since Essentials is what WotC probably has as their priority. Only a segment of players use Psionic Power, or Dark Sun, but they expect ALL new players to be using the Essentials.
I ask, why you guys from WoTC won't publish a part of the Update for the hungry wolves. You want to update everything at the same date, but it is harder for everyone, it is like a cupboard, you carry it in pieces and not in one piece, 'cause it will be bulky and you take to much time to not destroy the cupboard, the walls or your other furniture.
My apologies for my bad English, it's not my native tongue.
Probably because the update started with Dark Sun (themes), then added in Psionic Power, then Essentials... The problems started with themes, and were compounded by Essentials. Psionic Power's in the middle, so to just get the easy one in, they'd have to start all over on the update... So the plan is plow onwards until it all works, especially since Essentials is what WotC probably has as their priority. Only a segment of players use Psionic Power, or Dark Sun, but they expect ALL new players to be using the Essentials.
Dark Sun is fine, but it the update comes and it's like only Essentials and nothing else, I am going to be quite irritated, and so are a lot of others. It's bad enough lots of people don't like the new direction to begin with (I am more positive than ambivalent about it in general), but to SEVERELY delay an update everyone wants for one that a good chunk of the consumers don't care in the slightest about is basically tossing a lit match onto a mountain of grease.
Now, I'm of the mind that all this rabble-rousing and demanding of answers is more likely to SLOW the update process, and it's probably actually a good thing they're not taking time out of their work to answer every pissed off customer who thinks he should get personal treatment from a multinational faceless corporation. However, I do agree that SOME update of when we can expect the promised update would do a lot to deflect a lot of the venom that's building up here.
I really think we need to speak with our wallets and start cancelling subscriptions left and right. If enough of us cancel, maybe they will get the message and actually get the updates out. Let's send them this message loud and clear: "WotC. No tools updates on your part means no "payment" updates on our part!"
Dude... they're offering refunds for september, in case you missed it. So, it's pretty clear to me that they're not trying to steal your money.
If they could update the CB in september, don't you think they'd just have done so?
They're not delaying the updates out of spite, it's pretty obvious that something went wrong with either the themes from dark sun or the new classes from HotFL, possibly both.
You don't need to let them know that you want the CB updated: they already know, that's why they are offering refunds in the first place.
Complaining on the boards, cancelling subscriptions... it's not something that will make coding easier or faster. Furthermore, it's something that makes no sense, because they're offering full refunds for september, so I guess that if they can't make it for October, they'll be refunding October as well, and, on top of that, as soon as they release the product you want, you'll resubscribe, because you want the updates.
In summary: they won't release an incomplete product because people are bitching; the updates will be done when they're done. Expecting that whining harder will solve any technical difficulties they're facing is unreasonable at best. Not even voting with your wallet will do, because they simply can't release the updates now.
Sometimes, you just have to wait.
Because using ballpeen hammers to make adjustments to the various appendages of corporate executives, while immediately gratifying, is frowned upon in North American society.
Dude... they're offering refunds for september, in case you missed it. So, it's pretty clear to me that they're not trying to steal your money.
If they could update the CB in september, don't you think they'd just have done so?
html_removed They're not delaying the updates out of spite, it's pretty obvious that something went wrong with either the themes from dark sun or the new classes from HotFL, possibly both.
Maybe? Since they aren't being very communicative (which is poor customer service) we really don't know much of anything. We have no idea why they aren't able to do the updates in stages, what precisely the problems are, or most importantly, when we can expect a resolution.
They missed the usual September date, they missed the revised date of September 21st, and now we are in October with no firm date for an update. Oh, and almost no communication. Can I stress that?
Also note that they are providing refunds only for people who specifically go about requesting them through Customer Service. Only the squeaky wheels get any grease whatsoever.
I obviously don't think they are delaying out of spite, but that doesn't rule out gross incompetence, negligent mismanagement, general sloth, deliberate business strategy, or many other possibilities. Also, we're not talking about a major release of an OS here; this is a simple character builder app coded for the .NET framework of all things.
Whatever the reason, the lack of communication shows that they have limited respect for their subscriber base.
Complaining on the boards, cancelling subscriptions... it's not something that will make coding easier or faster. Furthermore, it's something that makes no sense,
Also, don't assume that the only people at WoTC who are aware of user complaints on the boards are the ones doing the coding.
If people in the executive chain see that this is something that actually matters to the subscribers, then just perhaps things can be changed to make this outcome less likely in the future.
Dude... they're offering refunds for september, in case you missed it. So, it's pretty clear to me that they're not trying to steal your money.
If they could update the CB in september, don't you think they'd just have done so?
html_removed They're not delaying the updates out of spite, it's pretty obvious that something went wrong with either the themes from dark sun or the new classes from HotFL, possibly both.
Maybe? Since they aren't being very communicative (which is poor customer service) we really don't know much of anything. We have no idea why they aren't able to do the updates in stages, what precisely the problems are, or most importantly, when we can expect a resolution.
They missed the usual September date, they missed the revised date of September 21st, and now we are in October with no firm date for an update. Oh, and almost no communication. Can I stress that?
Also note that they are providing refunds only for people who specifically go about requesting them through Customer Service. Only the squeaky wheels get any grease whatsoever.
I obviously don't think they are delaying out of spite, but that doesn't rule out gross incompetence, negligent mismanagement, general sloth, deliberate business strategy, or many other possibilities. Also, we're not talking about a major release of an OS here; this is a simple character builder app coded for the .NET framework of all things.
Whatever the reason, the lack of communication shows that they have limited respect for their subscriber base.
How so? They've refunded all the subscribers that asked, despite the fact that they didn't have to.
Do you really expect that they refund even the customers that are satisfied with their DDI subscription for the month? Why would they?
As for the lack of communication, it's pretty clear what their stance is: they're sorry for the delay, but they still don't have an ETA.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
90% of the times, they're not even going to tell you what the problem is. Frankly, WotC has been far more communicative than most companies out there about this whole matter.
Most times, you won't see an answer at all.
Two weeks ago, WotC_Trevor posted this:
D&D Insider Subscriber,
We will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. We plan to update the Character Builder in early October with changes to support Dark Sun and the Essentials. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Which implies:
1) that the schedule has not been changed yet, and they still plan to release an update in October and
2) that if anything changes, they'll tell you.
If anything, the fact that people are asking the same thing over and over, when it's pretty clear that nothing has changed, and that as soon as WotC have an ETA or decide that they won't make it in time for October they'll tell us makes the complaints sound pretty disrespectful in this case.
What do you expect, a post from a WotC rep every half an hour that says "Still no news. We'll update you again in 30 minutes!"?
Again, nothing has changed.
In addition, WotC's been nice enough to give your money back if you ask, despite the fact that legally they're not obligated to do so, because the EULA states pretty clearly that they might or might not update the CB monthly, and they still provided you access to the DDI for september.
That doesn't show a lot of disrespect if you ask me, YMMV.
Complaining on the boards, cancelling subscriptions... it's not something that will make coding easier or faster. Furthermore, it's something that makes no sense,
Also, don't assume that the only people at WoTC who are aware of user complaints on the boards are the ones doing the coding.
If people in the executive chain see that this is something that actually matters to the subscribers, then just perhaps things can be changed to make this outcome less likely in the future.
Dude, it's the first time in 2 years that such a delay happens.
Do you really think that, whether people complain or not, they're not going to do something to avoid that it happens again?
If it was par for the course I'd understand, but it's not.
However, if that is the only way to make our dissatisfaction clear to whomever is "responsible" for all of this, then that's what needs to be done.
Because using ballpeen hammers to make adjustments to the various appendages of corporate executives, while immediately gratifying, is frowned upon in North American society.
Except that it's pretty clear to them that people are dissatisfied with the lack of an update, as evidenced by the fact that they're offering refunds as long as you're willing to ask.
If they thought you have no reason to be dissatisfied, they'd not be refunding you at all.
"Yeah, but see that this doesn't happen again!" is something that's not even worth saying, because it's not something that they can control: **** happens, you can plan all you want but sometimes something's bound to go wrong.
In addition, it's in their best interest, rather than yours, that such a delay doesn't happen again, because, as evidenced in this and other threads, the CB is a huge selling point for DDI.
So *** happens, I know that. However, that in no way negates the ire that our fellows feel, nor does it repudiate the source of that ire (that of a promised product they have not received despite having paid for the product/service in question.)
Worse, they have received nothing but silence and one "maybe, soon" in response to all queries.
At least from WotC.
The VCL's are unfortunately muzzled by NDA's and cannot reassure us one way or another.
(Which is why I prefer a VLC over a VCL, at least I can watch movies and listen to music on my VLC media player...)
Hey, the only thing *I* really want right now is my CB updated with the Psionic Power and Dark Sun updates (Essentials can go bloody hang itself for all I care) and a non-buzzword apology.
So *** happens, I know that. However, that in no way negates the ire that our fellows feel, nor does it repudiate the source of that ire (that of a promised product they have not received despite having paid for the product/service in question.)
Worse, they have received nothing but silence and one "maybe, soon" in response to all queries.
At least from WotC.
The VCL's are unfortunately muzzled by NDA's and cannot reassure us one way or another.
(Which is why I prefer a VLC over a VCL, at least I can watch movies and listen to music on my VLC media player...)
Dude, you can't have your update now. Deal with it, you just can't.
You can rant all you want, it's not going to make things move faster.
You can have your money back, though (which, incidentally, is what they offered you).
So, again, why are you complaining? When a product is defective and you get your money back, do you go home or do you stay at the store, bitching for hours after they've refunded you?
As an aside, I don't know how extensive the changes to the CB are going to be, but I'd bet that scrapping whatever they're doing now and updating it with just PsiP and Dark Sun ( that, by the way, includes themes, which might or might not be easy to implement ) now would probably take far more time than going on with whatever they're doing.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
That was true in the nineties. Nowadays any manager/controller worth ones salt can say with good confidence how long a certain project will take. It only depends on wether marketing wants to tell customers or not. The number one cause of failed deadlines in IT projects are changing requirements in mid or late project cycle.
They know very well when they will release but are holding out on telling the public in case some unexpected major incident happens.
I would guess that the Character Builder team was never informed on the major changes required by the new content, but that only shifts the blame to management elsewhere within WotC. Or perhaps there have been recent personnel changes with unexpected changes in knowledge level that might have thrown estimation off.
So, again, why are you complaining?
1) Poor service. It is generally understood that when one recieves poor service, one has the bloody right to complain about it.
and
2) because I *** well have the right to do so.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
That was true in the nineties. Nowadays any manager/controller worth ones salt can say with good confidence how long a certain project will take. It only depends on wether marketing wants to tell customers or not. The number one cause of failed deadlines in IT projects are changing requirements in mid or late project cycle.
They know very well when they will release but are holding out on telling the public in case some unexpected major incident happens.
Well, Cataclysm was pushed back recently, IIRC.
Diablo III was pushed back what, 1 year?
DA:O was pushed back 6 months last year.
4 (IIRC) years ago, KOTOR 2 was rushed out of the door ( and the txt dialogue files found by the fans showed that a lot of the endgame was axed pretty badly ).
So, either the managers of these (pretty successful) companies are incompetent by modern standards, or I'll have to disagree with you here
I would guess that the Character Builder team was never informed on the major changes required by the new content, but that only shifts the blame to management elsewhere within WotC. Or perhaps there have been recent personnel changes with unexpected changes in knowledge level that might have thrown estimation off.
It may be. Or maybe, the database wasn't quite as flexible as they expected, and they had to rewrite more code than they though. It doesn't really matter: either way, we'll have to wait.
So, again, why are you complaining?
1) Poor service. It is generally understood that when one recieves poor service, one has the bloody right to complain about it.
and
2) because I *** well have the right to do so.
1) Dude, you could have a refund. Once you get a refund, that's it. You're complaining for no reason.
2)I *** well have the right to bang my head against a stone wall. Doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do so. Or that it will do any good. Or that I won't end up annoying my neighbours. Or that I won't look stupid.
I <3 this - it's going on my wall of cool community stuff.
On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
That was true in the nineties. Nowadays any manager/controller worth ones salt can say with good confidence how long a certain project will take. It only depends on wether marketing wants to tell customers or not. The number one cause of failed deadlines in IT projects are changing requirements in mid or late project cycle.
They know very well when they will release but are holding out on telling the public in case some unexpected major incident happens.
Well, Cataclysm was pushed back recently, IIRC.
Diablo III was pushed back what, 1 year?
DA:O was pushed back 6 months last year.
4 (IIRC) years ago, KOTOR 2 was rushed out of the door ( and the txt dialogue files found by the fans showed that a lot of the endgame was axed pretty badly ).
So, either the managers of these (pretty successful) companies are incompetent by modern standards, or I'll have to disagree with you here
I suspect what happened here (we don't know the full story, I am not aware of an official date ever being released for Diablo III) is team managers having calculated one estimate and later discovered that they had to release sizeable resources for other departments, which in Blizzard's case was possibly the launch of SC2.
Changing requirements mid-project are also a very, very common cause for slipping deadlines, the perfect example is Duke Nukem. No controller anywhere can make honest estimations if they also have to deal with new and ill-matched requirements, especially if the development has reached some speed.
The Kin is a perfect example that successful companies are sometimes hit by the full force of incompetents.
WotC Trevor, it is real simple. Don't put up witty little pictures for us or snyde remarks.
I'm not sure that (snide remarks) was his intention. Plus, I'm pretty sure I saw that posted by someone else a couple of hours before in another thread. He may have simply found it funny.
WotC Trevor, it is real simple. Don't put up witty little pictures for us or snyde remarks.
The picture was created by a user, and was initially posted a bit higher up (post 216) in the thread.
BTW, since the update was not out on the 1st tuesday of this month I will be asking WotC for yet another refund. I hope they are sick of giving our money back and I hope they are sick of losing business.
Given that in the announcement indicating that the update of the 21st of september would be delayed they said that the next update would be in "early october", it may be premature to ask for an update just yet.
On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.
I can respect that, absolutely. Heck; I'm not one of the ones asking for a refund, either.
I think my own frustration is at the lack of information. I can get behind something like, "It's delayed because this was harder than anticipated." But while I don't feel I'm entitled to an answer, it'd kinda be nice to feel like there's some sort of dialogue here, and maybe get some vague idea of the progress. Even your response is really nothing more than saying maybe you'll hve some information for us soon... For those of us just hoping to use the CB and MB to make our new Dark Sun games easier, it'd be good to at least have some idea what's going on and why it's taking so long.
-O
Early October my ash.
If he hopes to have 'some news in a couple of days', then that means the update itself is quite a bit farther out than a couple of days.
Early October my ash.
Hm. Yeah, at this point, I will be surprised -- pleasantly surprised, to be sure -- but surprised nonetheless to see an update before, let's say, the 21st of this month.
On the other hand, though I'm not at the point where I really believe they'll miss this month too, it occurs to me that if I assume something like "late November" or "1st Quarter 2011," then anything earlier than that will seem like Christmastime.
If he hopes to have 'some news in a couple of days', then that means the update itself is quite a bit farther out than a couple of days.
Early October my ash.
Hm. Yeah, at this point, I will be surprised -- pleasantly surprised, to be sure -- but surprised nonetheless to see an update before, let's say, the 21st of this month.
On the other hand, though I'm not at the point where I really believe they'll miss this month too, it occurs to me that if I assume something like "late November" or "1st Quarter 2011," then anything earlier than that will seem like Christmastime.
Let me put it this way. I am not a betting man, but I would be willing to entertain bets that they won't have it ready for this month either. They've already had an extra month to get the update ready and If they aren't confident enough in a date yet to be able to say anything or put it on the calendar, it tells me they have run into BIG problems.
I suspect Trevor's 'good news' is 'We expect to get it done eventually' that's par for the course these days.
some joke picture and "hey we will get it to you soon"
it felt more like a slap in the face like them saying "you dont know and we dont care WOOT!"
maybe a "were about 70% done" or a "5-10 days" i think most of us are sick of being told "soon" for the last month
my question is did anyone but me see Trevers post today and feel insulted.
some joke picture and "hey we will get it to you soon"
it felt more like a slap in the face like them saying "you dont know and we dont care WOOT!"
maybe a "were about 70% done" or a "5-10 days" i think most of us are sick of being told "soon" for the last month
Dude, that was a picture somebody else had posted just a few posts higher. Trevor was showing good humor and not getting mad/defensive at the portrayal of himself. Give him a break on this.
How so? They've refunded all the subscribers that asked, despite the fact that they didn't have to.
Do you really expect that they refund even the customers that are satisfied with their DDI subscription for the month? Why would they?
They don't have to, but it's a smart move in terms of customer retention.
Similarly, it would be a good gesture to give a month (or two) free service, since it's a fair estimate that not everyone who is unhappy with the service has navigated their way to customer service for a refund. Also, there are a lot of people who might not be mad enough (yet) to ask for a refund, and the gesture could really improve their temperature overall.
Also, generally, by the time a customer is specifically asking for a refund, you've really angered them.
As for the lack of communication, it's pretty clear what their stance is: they're sorry for the delay, but they still don't have an ETA.
Yes, and you know what? When you miss multiple deadlines, the right thing to do is overcommunicate. It shouldn't be "Oh, this is what they said 2 weeks ago", when we missed the regular update day for October as well.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
90% of the times, they're not even going to tell you what the problem is. Frankly, WotC has been far more communicative than most companies out there about this whole matter.
Most times, you won't see an answer at all.
This is different from games like WoW. If there's no patch, I can still play the game just the same as everyone else who plays WoW.
A lack of updates to the CB when a bunch of new material has been released makes the CB experience of significantly less value for anyone who uses that material.
Also, we have a release date for Cataclysm.
What do you expect, a post from a WotC rep every half an hour that says "Still no news. We'll update you again in 30 minutes!"?
Again, nothing has changed.
Nice hyperbole. No, every 30 minutes is completely ridiculous.
However, a couple times a week would be nice, if they can't give us a hard date for at least a partial update. They post every time there's a new article in Dragon; they can take the few moments to let us know what's going on with the CB.
In addition, WotC's been nice enough to give your money back if you ask, despite the fact that legally they're not obligated to do so, because the EULA states pretty clearly that they might or might not update the CB monthly, and they still provided you access to the DDI for september.
That doesn't show a lot of disrespect if you ask me, YMMV.
Dragging out the EULA is worse than meaningless. Yes, they don't have to update it every month. However, in the real world of business and customer satisfaction, if they say "We will update on the first Tuesday of every month" and then fail to, people are going to be irritated. When they miss multiple dates, the irritation will grow.
Ultimately, they don't have to update on the monthly schedule they specified, but people don't have to subscribe, either.
Dude, it's the first time in 2 years that such a delay happens.
Do you really think that, whether people complain or not, they're not going to do something to avoid that it happens again?
If it was par for the course I'd understand, but it's not.
Dude, man...dude. It's like this: It's all going to come down to financial analysis. They will look at the number of people canceling (and perhaps moving to the occasional resub for updates), the number of refunds requested, and the amount of discontent on the boards (perhaps a good indicator of further cancellations and lost revenue).
Then, they will see what can be done internally to prevent recurrences. Depending on the nature of the problem (say, a negligent PM), it may be very easy to correct. However, whether or not it gets fixed will be a function of the numbers, and what makes sense in that regard.
However, one thing is certain in situations like this: It never hurts to let people know you are unhappy with the service issues.
sir i am an angry customer, therefore i have no use for your "facts" and "logic"
Far be it from me to tell you that you shouldn't be angry. I certainly understand it, though my response is closer to disillusioned than angry. I'm just suggesting that your anger is misplaced, and I sure wouldn't want you to waste some of that anger in the wrong place when there's plenty of need for it where it is deserved.
my question is did anyone but me see Trevers post today and feel insulted.
some joke picture and "hey we will get it to you soon"
it felt more like a slap in the face like them saying "you dont know and we dont care WOOT!"
To make this one clear to all of those that are simply reading posts from someone with an official logo below their avatar:
The picture Trevor had included into his last post was made by me earlier in this thread.
So if you dont like it, blame me not him, for i am sure he had no intention to make anyone upset by quoting to it.
As for what he posted, i have to say i am happy to read it. Sure he didnt gave us (or most of us) the answers we wanted, but it was something. The least thing it tells us, is that he actually reads this threads here and is still trying to do his best to make sure we get proper answers to our questions.
I <3 this - it's going on my wall of cool community stuff.
On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.
He LIVES! Finally a response from someone that can tell us something... and damn he tells us very little...
I take no credit for this piece of genious.
If you can't read it google "Tire Swing Cartoon".
it was something. The least thing it tells us, is that he actually reads this threads here and is still trying to do his best to make sure we get proper answers to our questions.
Great cartoon, loved it. It was a good thing to hear from a WotC rep. At the very least we are getting closer to the definition of SOON. From his post we just have to add two more days.
I am sorry, but making a joke of the situation is not helping the situation in any way. Maybe later (after the CB update is out), but not now. People are angry, I am angry. WotC Trevor needs to approach all of us in a very serious tone.
I kind of disagree and I think I have made my point clear regarding the lack of communication from WotC in various threads about this issue. A joke is appreciated, I laughed, it is better than nothing but only if it is accompanied with some serious stuff also, which in my opinion Trevor did. I really hope he and the CB team delivers.
How so? They've refunded all the subscribers that asked, despite the fact that they didn't have to.
Do you really expect that they refund even the customers that are satisfied with their DDI subscription for the month? Why would they?
They don't have to, but it's a smart move in terms of customer retention.
Similarly, it would be a good gesture to give a month (or two) free service, since it's a fair estimate that not everyone who is unhappy with the service has navigated their way to customer service for a refund. Also, there are a lot of people who might not be mad enough (yet) to ask for a refund, and the gesture could really improve their temperature overall.
Also, generally, by the time a customer is specifically asking for a refund, you've really angered them.
Or you've just provided a defective product. Something that happens on a regular basis all over the world.
In this case, they haven't, actually, but they still let you get a refund if you felt that they did.
As for the lack of communication, it's pretty clear what their stance is: they're sorry for the delay, but they still don't have an ETA.
Yes, and you know what? When you miss multiple deadlines, the right thing to do is overcommunicate. It shouldn't be "Oh, this is what they said 2 weeks ago", when we missed the regular update day for October as well.
Is it November yet? I'm not up to date, it seems.
It's october 6, from where I'm writing.
"It's done when it's done" is pretty standard fare in software development.
Try asking Blizzard or Bioware when the next patch for WoW, SC, DA:O or ME is going to be released and the best answer you're going to have is "it's done when it's done".
90% of the times, they're not even going to tell you what the problem is. Frankly, WotC has been far more communicative than most companies out there about this whole matter.
Most times, you won't see an answer at all.
This is different from games like WoW. If there's no patch, I can still play the game just the same as everyone else who plays WoW.
A lack of updates to the CB when a bunch of new material has been released makes the CB experience of significantly less value for anyone who uses that material.
That's weird, because I can still play my game fine even without the "patch", here.
There must be some kind of bug in your books, methinks :P
Also, we have a release date for Cataclysm.
I'm not saying we don't have one, now. I was specifically addressing the fact that delays no longer happen nowadays.
What do you expect, a post from a WotC rep every half an hour that says "Still no news. We'll update you again in 30 minutes!"?
Again, nothing has changed.
Nice hyperbole. No, every 30 minutes is completely ridiculous.
However, a couple times a week would be nice, if they can't give us a hard date for at least a partial update. They post every time there's a new article in Dragon; they can take the few moments to let us know what's going on with the CB.
Why? What does this accomplish? Does asking someone "is it done yet?" change a thing?
Moreover, when they posted that they would not update in September, people were still complaining from the get go.
It's just the focus of the complaints that's changed: at first it was stuff like "this is unacceptable, I'm cancelling my subscription because of your incompetence" and now it is "you're not communicative enough, you're being disrespectful of your customers!".
Posting here is going to put some posters at ease and just make others angrier ( see this thread for an example ). In the end, nothing will really change.
As an aside, wiki defines communication as "a process whereby information is enclosed in a package and is channeled and imparted by a sender to a receiver via some medium."
Where's the "information" in "sorry, no info yet"? Is it even communication?
They'd provide communication if they had it. As things stand, it's pretty obvious that they don't have any.
In addition, WotC's been nice enough to give your money back if you ask, despite the fact that legally they're not obligated to do so, because the EULA states pretty clearly that they might or might not update the CB monthly, and they still provided you access to the DDI for september.
That doesn't show a lot of disrespect if you ask me, YMMV.
Dragging out the EULA is worse than meaningless. Yes, they don't have to update it every month. However, in the real world of business and customer satisfaction, if they say "We will update on the first Tuesday of every month" and then fail to, people are going to be irritated. When they miss multiple dates, the irritation will grow.
Ultimately, they don't have to update on the monthly schedule they specified, but people don't have to subscribe, either.
Except that they want to subscribe, and to do so they agreed to the EULA, so dragging it in is not meaningless at all. Whose fault is it if a customer doesn't read a contract before signing it?
You have no reason to be irritated when you are the one who got things wrong in the first place.
Either way, they apologized and, again, offered full refunds while still delivering at least part of the product.
Providing something that should not be expected ( be it a regular update or regular communication ) is indeed a smart move, but it's a long way from "it's nice to do it" to "it's disrespectful not to provide it".
Either you think that communication is owed (and it isn't at all, in this case), and thus failing to provide communication is a sign of disrespect or you think that communication isn't required but it's something that's nice to have, and thus not providing it might not be a smart move but it doesn't imply any lack of respect whatsoever.
Dude, it's the first time in 2 years that such a delay happens.
Do you really think that, whether people complain or not, they're not going to do something to avoid that it happens again?
If it was par for the course I'd understand, but it's not.
Dude, man...dude. It's like this: It's all going to come down to financial analysis. They will look at the number of people canceling (and perhaps moving to the occasional resub for updates), the number of refunds requested, and the amount of discontent on the boards (perhaps a good indicator of further cancellations and lost revenue).
Then, they will see what can be done internally to prevent recurrences. Depending on the nature of the problem (say, a negligent PM), it may be very easy to correct. However, whether or not it gets fixed will be a function of the numbers, and what makes sense in that regard.
However, one thing is certain in situations like this: It never hurts to let people know you are unhappy with the service issues.
Yes, actually, sometimes it ends up hurting you.
When you complain when you have no right to, you end up losing credibility with both your fellow customers and with whoever provides the service you're complaining about.
In the long run, your complaints become routine, just something more to ignore.
I kind of disagree and I think I have made my point clear regarding the lack of communication from WotC in various threads about this issue. A joke is appreciated, I laughed, it is better than nothing but only if it is accompanied with some serious stuff also, which in my opinion Trevor did. I really hope he and the CB team delivers.
Im sorry but i completely disagree if i came into your place of business with something a month overdue and make a joke about it and just say "were working on getting information to you soon" you wouldn't find it funny, i certainty dident
moreover i do not understand the lack of communication this is the relationship Era of business where to keep your business growing you need to form a connection with your customers. if you disagree with that look around you everybody got some kind of newsletter, bonus card, facebook, twitter page etc etc.
wizards is failing us and itself by failing to build a relationship with its customers and companies that arent going to keep with the times will fail
I am sorry, but making a joke of the situation is not helping the situation in any way. Maybe later (after the CB update is out), but not now. People are angry, I am angry. WotC Trevor needs to approach all of us in a very serious tone. He either gives out cognizant, significant information pertaining to when the update will be out or he should not spout out at all. Jokes at the point (any kind of joke) are only going to result in making more people angry (like me)...
Im sorry but i completely disagree if i came into your place of business with something a month overdue and make a joke about it and just say "were working on getting information to you soon" you wouldn't find it funny, i certainty dident
Please read what other people say if you dont want to jump on wrong conculsions.
I made this one clear only a few posts ago and everyone who followed the thread propperly whould have figured this out for himself:
Trevors last post included no joke to offend the community in any way, he just replied to a picture i posted myself in this thread.
If you dont like the picture or think i was not allowed to post it in the first place, address me with your concearns, not him.
The picture was not Trevor's joke.
The only "joke" Trevor made (and joke is a stretch) was the comment that the news he was able to provide was probably not going to be seen as news.
I don't see why they can't just tell us the truth about what's going on, it's not like it is a secret that they bit off more than they could chew with the DDI they unveiled in 2008, but they keep pretending that never happened. Look at the Adventure Tools, we got the Monster Builder in 2009 and since then, nothing. Now we are two months from the last update (they do have the book updates on the main page) and no answers or dates. I think things are falling apart in the DDI department and I think it is because they have had to decrease their staff due to budget cuts.
Alternatively, they're working on too many cool projects at once which is slowing them all down to snail's pace. That would be more reassuring even if I would prefer they finish one project quickly instead of multiple projects at the same time slowly. Too bad we can't read their minds to figure it out.
I don't see why they can't just tell us the truth about what's going on, it's not like it is a secret that they bit off more than they could chew with the DDI they unveiled in 2008, but they keep pretending that never happened. Look at the Adventure Tools, we got the Monster Builder in 2009 and since then, nothing. Now we are two months from the last update (they do have the book updates on the main page) and no answers or dates. I think things are falling apart in the DDI department and I think it is because they have had to decrease their staff due to budget cuts.
Alternatively, they're working on too many cool projects at once which is slowing them all down to snail's pace. That would be more reassuring even if I would prefer they finish one project quickly instead of multiple projects at the same time slowly. Too bad we can't read their minds to figure it out.
They said, a long time ago, that they were working on 'one tool at a time'. Thus the lack of budget scenario seems far more likely.
I <3 this - it's going on my wall of cool community stuff.
On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.
He LIVES! Finally a response from someone that can tell us something... and damn he tells us very little...
Trevor, what the hell do you mean 'we are working on getting some more information for you'?
Getting more information implies that we have been given SOME information. NOT!
Are you not involved in the update? If you are, then I am sure you could spend 1 minute and give us a LOT of information we do not have right now. C'mon...
- How many days behind are you right now?
- On what date will you absolutely have an update out? Oct 8? Oct 15? Oct 19? Nov 2?
- Why is your dept not out in front of this? Why the radio silence? You and your folks are currently in lock-step with 'What not to do when you know you are going to miss a published deadline' out of any Businees school or PR textbook.
If you cannot answer the first two questions right now (without additional work), then you need one of more of the following:
1- more programmers
2- smarter, better programmers
3- more competent management (ones that can get the programmers to meet deadlines or set realistic DDI update goals with your publishing dept. and then deliver on time)
That's weird, because I can still play my game fine even without the "patch", here.
There must be some kind of bug in your books, methinks :P
Okay, this has become one of my pet peeves in this whole affair, the whole 'just make your characters by hand' thing.
Yes, we know we can make our characters by hand. We have reasons to prefer to use the CB and that is why we pay for the subscription. We don't have to pay WOTC a dime if we are going to make them by hand. And before you bring up my OTHER pet peeve, "The CB still works fine", that is only true if you are not trying to incorporate anything that has come out in the last few months, i.e. Dark Sun or Essentials.
I <3 this - it's going on my wall of cool community stuff.
On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.
He LIVES! Finally a response from someone that can tell us something... and damn he tells us very little...
Trevor, what the hell do you mean 'we are working on getting some more information for you'?
Getting more information implies that we have been given SOME information. NOT!
Are you not involved in the update? If you are, then I am sure you could spend 1 minute and give us a LOT of information we do not have right now. C'mon...
- How many days behind are you right now?
- On what date will you absolutely have an update out? Oct 8? Oct 15? Oct 19? Nov 2?
- Why is your dept not out in front of this? Why the radio silence? You and your folks are currently in lock-step with 'What not to do when you know you are going to miss a published deadline' out of any Businees school or PR textbook.
If you cannot answer the first two questions right now (without additional work), then you need one of more of the following:
1- more programmers
2- smarter, better programmers
3- more competent management (ones that can get the programmers to meet deadlines or set realistic DDI update goals with your publishing dept. and then deliver on time)
Whats worse, even asssuming he is 100% correct and truthful in his statement, it just means we
will have 'news' in a couple of days. The update itself could (and probably will) be long after that.
What's even worse than that is that from previous experience, the news will be 'We are working on it, you'll have it soon'.
That's weird, because I can still play my game fine even without the "patch", here.
There must be some kind of bug in your books, methinks :P
Okay, this has become one of my pet peeves in this whole affair, the whole 'just make your characters by hand' thing.
Yes, we know we can make our characters by hand. We have reasons to prefer to use the CB and that is why we pay for the subscription. We don't have to pay WOTC a dime if we are going to make them by hand. And before you bring up my OTHER pet peeve, "The CB still works fine", that is only true if you are not trying to incorporate anything that has come out in the last few months, i.e. Dark Sun or Essentials.
Additionally, there are all sorts of bugs in my books. I don't know how your books work, but mine are a couple years behind in errata. Perhaps some people's books update themselves? The CB is really the only way I stay on top of those changes because I don't spend much time on this website when I'm not trying to figure out why I haven't had an update since August.
But it's not the end of the world, nor do you deserve to be told how you're a bad person and doing it all wrong. So, ignore the critics, keep working, and try to keep the community up to date. I personally will neither seek a refund or cancel my subscription, and am looking forward to further updates.
Or you've just provided a defective product. Something that happens on a regular basis all over the world.
In this case, they haven't, actually, but they still let you get a refund if you felt that they did.
Huh? That has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about, here.
Is it November yet? I'm not up to date, it seems.
It's october 6, from where I'm writing.
They missed the normal Sept. deadline. They missed the revised deadline of September 21st. They also missed their regular update of "first Tuesday of the month" for October.
Also, "early October" is not two weeks in. That's mid-October.
That's weird, because I can still play my game fine even without the "patch", here.
There must be some kind of bug in your books, methinks :P
Yes, I can play with the books I bought. However, the monthly fee I pay is entirely separate from the books I bought. The tool for which I am paying for updates does not work with the new books I bought.
Speaking of, are you an Insider subscriber? It's not showing as such by your avatar.
Why? What does this accomplish? Does asking someone "is it done yet?" change a thing?
What it does is that is shows the customer you are actively concerned about their perceptions and temperature. It reassures them that you are taking it seriously and making it a high priority; that you are on the task of actively making it right.
Communication can often make all the difference between retaining a customer and having them leave in a huff.
Moreover, when they posted that they would not update in September, people were still complaining from the get go.
It's just the focus of the complaints that's changed: at first it was stuff like "this is unacceptable, I'm cancelling my subscription because of your incompetence" and now it is "you're not communicative enough, you're being disrespectful of your customers!".
Posting here is going to put some posters at ease and just make others angrier ( see this thread for an example ). In the end, nothing will really change.
Of course they were complaining! They were expecting an update to coincide with recent releases and they didn't get it. What's so hard to understand about that?
However, as time wears on, the lack of communication actually becomes worse than the lack of delivery for many. Really, you've just proven my point with your focus comment.
As an aside, wiki defines communication as "a process whereby information is enclosed in a package and is channeled and imparted by a sender to a receiver via some medium."
Where's the "information" in "sorry, no info yet"? Is it even communication?
They'd provide communication if they had it. As things stand, it's pretty obvious that they don't have any.
Hah! Try Merriam-Webster instead of Wiki.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commu...
Also, why do you assume they'd provide info if they had it? Do they not have information as to what's happened thus far to delay things? Have they shared that? They aren't exactly telling us what's been done so far, and what's yet to be done, either. Also, do you really believe there's no accountability internally at WoTC for any of this stuff?
Except that they want to subscribe, and to do so they agreed to the EULA, so dragging it in is not meaningless at all. Whose fault is it if a customer doesn't read a contract before signing it?
You have no reason to be irritated when you are the one who got things wrong in the first place.
You completely misunderstand.
It's not that the EULA isn't valid legally, it's that it has NOTHING to do with customer retention.
Let me help you with an analogy: Let's say I am an IT security consultant, and I have a customer who signs my retainer agreement. I tell them via email that I will meet with them every month to discuss threats in the wild and how those relate to their security posture. However, in my retainer agreement, it says that I get paid even if I don't conduct these briefings every month. Now, when I start missing briefings, even though I said I'd do them, I could point to my agreement and say, "Wait, lookee here!" However, since I have specifically told them I would do a thing, and created that expectation, I will be winning no points with that strategy. In fact, if it's an at-will scenario, I could potentially expect to be dismissed for missing the briefings; all the more so if I try to get righteous with the contract. That's how it works in the real world.
Either way, they apologized and, again, offered full refunds while still delivering at least part of the product.
Providing something that should not be expected ( be it a regular update or regular communication ) is indeed a smart move, but it's a long way from "it's nice to do it" to "it's disrespectful not to provide it".
Either you think that communication is owed (and it isn't at all, in this case), and thus failing to provide communication is a sign of disrespect or you think that communication isn't required but it's something that's nice to have, and thus not providing it might not be a smart move but it doesn't imply any lack of respect whatsoever.
When your customers are angry, you can either adopt the notion that it's their problem, or that it's your problem. The former tend not to stay in business for long unless they're already monopolies.
Yes, actually, sometimes it ends up hurting you.
When you complain when you have no right to, you end up losing credibility with both your fellow customers and with whoever provides the service you're complaining about.
In the long run, your complaints become routine, just something more to ignore.
"No right to"? Are you honestly thinking that people who pay have no right to complain when the service isn't delivered as they had told us it would be?
Also, I couldn't give two dead rats for the credibility I have with my fellow customers. What does that even mean?
Finally, I think the fact that people from WoTC are popping in here shows that they aren't going to ignore it. Really, they'd be fools to ignore it unless they want to see a lot of business walk.
In short, chill out. If you're going to cancel autorenew, cancel autorenew. If you're going to request a refund, request a refund. And if you want to give the management team feedback, give the management team feedback. Throwing a hissy on an internet forum isn't the way to do that. People who contact CustServ frequently hear back promptly from higher-ups in development. That's where you want to direct both your anger and your constructive feedback.
Venting is all well and good, but let's distinguish between venting and actually addressing the problem. By getting into lengthy arguments with other posters here, defending your position, folks clearly intend to place themselves in the latter category. If that's what you're trying to do here on the forum, though, you're wasting time and energy that could be spent actually addressing the problem by contacting the proper people through the proper channels.
tl;dr: If you're pissed off or have serious advice for the wotc team, contact Customer Service: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Is it possible to get a thread that only offical news is posted in? That way people won't have to dig through 27 pages of crap to try and find an update.
Yep. This thread:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The first post contains all of the official news there is regarding this topic, with the exception of WotC_Trevor's most recent post which says, "more news in a couple days." Note that the rest of the thread is not necessary to read, since MudBunny says he'll be updating post #1 if/when more information comes to light.
Is it possible to get a thread that only offical news is posted in? That way people won't have to dig through 27 pages of crap to try and find an update.
Try the thread here. I will be updating it as information and posts from WotC are obtained.
Lastly, let me introduce some reality to those of us who have lost it, because perspective can be helpful at times. WotC is a company with many subdivisions and many products going on at once. Not everyone knows everything about the other divisions. Corporate leaders do not have the time to come down and reassure the masses, that is what they pay division heads to do. Additionally, division heads have many things going on in their world and don't always have time to respond to the masses either, again they pay someone to do that. A General in the Army doesn't go down to the lowly recruiting station to discuss the needs of the Station Commander, he has a Captain to do that for him. My point is that we are getting information as it comes, there is no conspiracy going on to prevent us from getting the information. You have serveral recourses if you don't like the way things are going: you can ask for a refund through customer service, or you can stop buying the product. In the grand scheme of things I highly doubt that as a whole WotC or Hasbro could care less about whether or not you stop your DDI subscription. I think the $500+ dollars you've spent in the last 2 years buying books, mini's, tiles, magic cards, and board games for the kids more than makes up for the paltry $79 you spend every year on your subscription. So I said all that to say this: 1. This forum is not for you to insult or degrade anyone, it's to post valid questions for MudBunny to take to his superiors. 2. If you have complaints, bring them to the correct person for response - customer service. 3. If you have a problem with your service, exercise your right to cancel your subscription, but please, don't tell us about it, most of us really don't care and don't appreciate having to weed through your complaints and whining to find out the information we are seeking. I know that I might piss some people off with this, but honestly I don't care. And before you post and complain about what I just said and how hypocritical I am, just know this, I understand that this post goes against what I said by adding to the chaos, but I am hoping that by posting this, it will lend clarity so that others can learn that posting complaints in a forum with no real objective other than to vent is counterproductive. If my counterproductive post becomes productive in that aspect, then I am not hypocritical.
*steps off soapbox*
-Dragon
Just wondering how long mnDragon's post last, or is Pro WotC rhetoric immune? If I was to write something like that, OH I DID, it would be edited and right quick.... Pointing the finger like that 
1. This forum is not for you to insult or degrade anyone, it's to post valid questions for MudBunny to take to his superiors.
Err, nope. These forums are for people to discuss topics related to the DDI part of Dungeons and Dragons. Submitting questions to me to bring up is not at all part of the funtion of these forums. That just happens to be a side effect of the fact that I work all day in front of a computer and so can have a window open on the forums a lot of the time.
3. If you have a problem with your service, exercise your right to cancel your subscription, but please, don't tell us about it, most of us really don't care and don't appreciate having to weed through your complaints and whining to find out the information we are seeking.
If people want to complain about the service that they are getting, the quality/quantity of product or the fact that WotC doesn't use enough apostrophes in the names of PCs and NPCs, they have every right to do so, as long as they follow a couple of basic rules:
1 - Make sure that it is in the appropriate forum.
2 - Make sure that they follow the CoC.
3 - Be polite.
I have said this in other posts, butr WotC is not at all interested in turning these forums into an echo chamber. Part of determining what is accepted and what is not...what is good and what needs to be changed, is by reading posts on forums.
Additionally, there are all sorts of bugs in my books. I don't know how your books work, but mine are a couple years behind in errata. Perhaps some people's books update themselves? The CB is really the only way I stay on top of those changes because I don't spend much time on this website when I'm not trying to figure out why I haven't had an update since August.
Don't forget the Compendium which has also not been updated for two months.
Trevor posted some information in another thread here. Looks like the update for CB and Compendium will happen next week.
So the most interesting parts (by far) are missing, because they decided to develop some web based tool which will never be finished.
Trevor posted some information in another thread here. Looks like the update for CB and Compendium will happen next week.
I wonder if that includes the Errata from the Essentials Preview? It was in the Compiled Errata so I hope CB is updated with that as well.
The character builder won't contain any Dark Sun/Essentials stuff. Basically it's some Dragon crap and Psionics.
So the most interesting parts (by far) are missing, because they decided to develop some web based tool which will never be finished.
no dark sun in the CB.... great this makes me a sad panda
can we expect it by the month end or begining of next month? or is Dark SUn just not a priority compared to stuff like web tools? The character builder won't contain any Dark Sun/Essentials stuff. Basically it's some Dragon crap and Psionics.
So the most interesting parts (by far) are missing, because they decided to develop some web based tool which will never be finished.
no dark sun in the CB.... great this makes me a sad panda can we expect it by the month end or begining of next month? or is Dark SUn just not a priority compared to stuff like web tools?
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
I think I would be too busy using it to remember to giggle. It's been the main tool I've wanted after the CB.
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
Might as well hope it comes with a pony while you are at it.
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
Might as well hope it comes with a pony while you are at it.
Ponies need a lot of space... could I have a hamster instead?
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
Might as well hope it comes with a pony while you are at it.
Ponies need a lot of space... could I have a hamster instead?
Hamster, pony, a good beer, hope for whaver floats you boat. All are infinitely more likely than a VTT or a CB with Dark Sun information in it.
...mind you, if you're right, I shall most likely weep bitter, angry tears of nerd-rage....
So as far as I can tell, the biggest differentiators for a VTT would be:
1. 3-D graphics
2. Rules automation and integration
3. "Made by Wizards of the Coast."
I'm not a business analyst, so I don't claim to be right or have the direct line to insight, but of the three, to me, #1 is the real sweet spot, since #2 can be done by the others and #3...is just a label. On the other hand, it wouldn't make me mad to be proven wrong.
Do you know where one could find an offline VTT? I have looked all over the net and I can't seem to find one. I would like to be able to bring my current campaign on screen if possible.
-Dragon
Do you know where one could find an offline VTT? I have looked all over the net and I can't seem to find one. I would like to be able to bring my current campaign on screen if possible.
-Dragon
Not sure what you meant by an "offline" VTT (I assume you just mean one you can display during face-to-face games). If that's the case, there are several that should do it:
Fantasy Grounds II (I assume it will work; don't know much about it)
Battlegrounds RPG Edition
MapTool (free; my preferred VTT, and works great for face-to-face games too)
Masterplan (a solid choice, because it also does campaign planning)
Um...there's GameTable (NOT the WotC thing, but a free Java version), too.
None of them require internet, so it should be what you need. If you have questions, I can answer at length about MapTool, but the others I'm not too familiar with. Probably ought to PM me, though, so as not to drag this thread off-topic.
This is pretty pathetic, DDI Team. I work in the publishing industry and have for years. I'm my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time. Clearly the same philosophy doesn't hold true at WotC. Consider me highly disappointed (not that you care about a single voice, but whatever).
[edit] I didn't get the e-mail about the delay, either, despite being a DDI subscriber for almost two years. Even more pathetic.
Man, you have absolutely no idea how offensive I find your post as a programmer/developer. If we were working together on a shared project and you came to my desk with that smug "In my world, if you're running behind on a product for a client, you work extra hours until it's done on time" attitude, you would find yourself on your a** so fast you would swear that the earth just dropped 5 ft.
Programming isn't like publishing in that when there are changes to be made you can just edit, delete or insert text or images. It's alot like being an architect, engineer and construction worker on a never ending building in the case of something like the CB. I dare you to take your attitude over to a half finished building and tell them how easy it should be "to keep it on time" by working extra hours to add another elevator shaft to the design now. Oh and please be sure and mention how doable it is in the publishing industry, I'm sure they'll appreciate your expertise.
Every once and a while I have the pleasure of hearing from some marketing genius how easy it should to add this "new feature" that he's dreamt up. That's when I usually start playing a game I call "How will your new feature handle these situations?", they will usually be able answer a couple of them but most answers will be something akin to "I don't know, I didn't think of that." I then say that it may not be as easy as they originally thought. To which they reply with "yeah but I've already promised this to a certain client but Y date". Aren't I the fortunate one to have all this help?
Another favorite I hear once and awhile is "Shouldn't you have accounted for that in the design X months/years ago in the first place?" to which I usually reply "Well, when we were gathering the design specifications from you in the first place, why didn't you mention this contingency then?
But hey what do I know because I'm just a lazy programmer not a publisher.
StanC
Your spot on man , these people have no idea how difficult programming architecture really is.
Your spot on man , these people have no idea how difficult programming architecture really is.
Unfortunately, the WotC development team has no idea, too.
How they could have the slightest hope to pull of a web based character builder is absolutely beyond my comprehension.
is there a set date for the update, its fast becoming "not early october"
Partial update will happen on October 12th. It will not include Dark Sun or Essentials in the Character Builder. The Compendium will be updated with some things; the Monster Builder will be updated at an undisclosed time in the future.
is there a set date for the update, its fast becoming "not early october"
Yes, there is, but as is WotC modus operandi there is only a thread somewhere in this forum.
character visualiser
I'm not so sure that this has any value whatsoever seperate from a VTT (where your character can have a cutom mini or whatever). I'm curious what is so useful about it. From where I sit, it seems to be the least useful of the the originally announced DDI tools but I would love to be proven wrong (in other words, enlighten me
)character visualiser
I'm not so sure that this has any value whatsoever seperate from a VTT (where your character can have a cutom mini or whatever). I'm curious what is so useful about it. From where I sit, it seems to be the least useful of the the originally announced DDI tools but I would love to be proven wrong (in other words, enlighten me
Yeah, that was my thoughts on in exactly. With a VTT it would be pretty neat, but not terribly important. Without a VTT it's next to useless.
the update is set for october 12th
Kinda sorta. Contrary to what was said when it was delayed until 'early october' it will have nothing for Dark Sun or Essentials.
WOTC, please, make my life easier again, UPDATE EVERYTHING!!!!!
character visualiser
I'm not so sure that this has any value whatsoever seperate from a VTT (where your character can have a cutom mini or whatever). I'm curious what is so useful about it. From where I sit, it seems to be the least useful of the the originally announced DDI tools but I would love to be proven wrong (in other words, enlighten me
Yeah, that was my thoughts on in exactly. With a VTT it would be pretty neat, but not terribly important. Without a VTT it's next to useless.
I project our map to a screen—character icons are very very useful. My players would love to customize their characters, but my needs are different.
The fantasy art I've collected over the years has been useful, but where I run into trouble is coming up with NPC icons to represent my specific NPC characters. It'd be really nice to be able to generate a custom figure for any NPC I need.
That a lot of people are dissapointed I can understand. But I do believe the D&Di crew can not be blamed for missing their deadline. I do believe that launching both Dark Sun and the Essentials line in the same timeframe was a dumb move. Quoting myself in a different post:
"I believe the biggest problem is indeed the combination of psionic power, dark sun and the essentials. Especially the essentials line, which introduces a complete rule update. You could call it 4.1. Introducing these updates in the builder is a complete system rework. Imagine reworking all the feats, the whole implement system, combining essentials with normal classes, and introducing the theme system from Dark Sun. All this is a lot of code changing and a lot of possible bugs, errors, etc. I feel sorry for the guys."
What people also seem to forget is that the subscription to D&Di isn't only for the tools. It is for a large part meant to get acces to the copyrighted material from Dungeon and Dragon magazine. What I believe they should have done from the get go, is split up the subscription. It should be possible to only subscribe to the D&Di tools, Dungeon or Dragon. If you don't like the material from one of the sources, you cancel that subscription. If a particular source has a small amount of subscriptions, they should think about what they are doing wrong. It is a costumer friendlier system.
Another consistent problem with Wizards is the fact that D&D digital tools are always lagging behind current developments. The 3e character builder was joke. The 4e character builder isn't the most beautifull coded program either. I'm pretty sure the guys on the team for the new Neverwinter game, will make a beautifull character creation program, with visuals included, that is updateable. Why can they do it, and Wizards can't. Because I believe Wizards didn't invest as deeply in it. I'm pretty sure they haven't bought out these guys www.etc.cmu.edu/projects/surfacescapes/i.... And I'm also pretty sure that what these guys are making will be the future of tabletop gaming. Wizards should be investing in this big time. There is so much potential there. But I'm starting to rant. What I'm trying to say is, be nice to D&Di crew and complain to the management.
Hopefully it doesn't end up taking 6 months to get Dark Sun into DDI, as I'll have migrated to spreadsheets completely by then and will have little use for DDI.
That a lot of people are dissapointed I can understand. But I do believe the D&Di crew can not be blamed for missing their deadline.
I firmly believe this is correct. However, that is not what I am upset about. What I am upset about is simple - the lack of communication from WotC to us, the paying consumer. I can live without Dark Sun, although it is inconvenient... But if they are to miss a deadline, they need to remain in contact with their users, and have some transparency... In this case, WotC did not do this. I sincerely hope they learn from this mistake.
What I am upset about is simple - the lack of communication from WotC to us, the paying consumer. I can live without Dark Sun, although it is inconvenient... But if they are to miss a deadline, they need to remain in contact with their users, and have some transparency... In this case, WotC did not do this. I sincerely hope they learn from this mistake.
I am fairly certain that thier lack of transparency is due to the fear that if we knew the truth, we would cancel our subscriptions en masse and then wait until they fixed all the issues. However, if that were to happen, the budget to fix said issues would be gone and the capitol needed to continue would no longer be there, thus forcing them to scrap the who project and then no one would get anything. But as long as they string us along, there is an income to maintain the project, how ever slow it is.
Just my opinion...
How odd . . . So we missed a month for nothing?
So . . .according to the new, locked thread, we will be receiving an update to the CB for Dark Sun, but NOT for Essentials? It looks like only the Compendium will get the Heroes content.
How odd . . . So we missed a month for nothing?
To the first question, no, going by Trevor's announcement, the CB will not include Dark Sun (and the Compendium will not include data from the Dark Sun Creature Catalog). As to the second question, yeah, it seems that way.
I am sure that Dark Sun is on their priority list...right behind the VTT.
I hope the new web tool is a VTT. That would just make me giggle.
Might as well hope it comes with a pony while you are at it.
Okay, somebody has to say it -- With all the manure in this room, there has to be a pony somewhere!
So . . .according to the new, locked thread, we will be receiving an update to the CB for Dark Sun, but NOT for Essentials? It looks like only the Compendium will get the Heroes content.
How odd . . . So we missed a month for nothing?
To the first question, no, going by Trevor's announcement, the CB will not include Dark Sun (and the Compendium will not include data from the Dark Sun Creature Catalog). As to the second question, yeah, it seems that way.
Ah, yes. . . my bad. That's what I get for quick, angry reading . . .
Okay, somebody has to say it -- With all the manure in this room, there has to be a pony somewhere!
You have won one Internets. Please pull forward to the second window and present your coupon.
StanC
Your spot on man , these people have no idea how difficult programming architecture really is.
Some of us, programmers and systems analysts like myself for example, do know how difficult it is. However, this does not excuse them. What makes it especially difficult in this case is not the ability of the programmers themselves nor the complexity of the program. It is that the resources for updating the program sufficiently to handle the large structural change needed to accomodate themes for Dark Sun (and, to a less extent, the changes required for the Essentials line.
Doing it without communicating with the subscribers and without word of when the web-based version will be available is disasterous. If they had done this, there would have been some upset people but not as many nor would they have been as angry.
Updating the Character Builder program to handle the new campaign rules and Essentials rules at a time when WotC is trying very hard to promote these changes would have been the smart move. Certainly, it might have delayed the web-based version for a few months (which would be good since it would be released at the beginning of the year when, traditionally, fewer new products are released because of the push to release new material in time for the holiday shopping season).
From a programming perspective, customer service perspective and sales perspective, I believe that WotC dropped the ball on this one.
I am fairly certain that thier lack of transparency is due to the fear that if we knew the truth, we would cancel our subscriptions en masse and then wait until they fixed all the issues. However, if that were to happen, the budget to fix said issues would be gone and the capitol needed to continue would no longer be there, thus forcing them to scrap the who project and then no one would get anything. But as long as they string us along, there is an income to maintain the project, how ever slow it is.
Just my opinion...
I disagree. I think that good communication could have alleviated much of the anger over the delay of the updates and could have been used in a way that would promote the upcoming web-based tools instead of causing the feeling of dread that seems to have permeated the forums.
Unfortunately, communication and good project management in the software division (who the heck decided that causing the delay when many yearly customers are up for renewal and Christmas is around the corner would be a good idea?) has never been one of WotC's strong points. I don't believe that this is sinister in any way. I simply see it as a failing both in customer service and marketing.
Unless these web-based tools are available in November (when marketing of new products is essential to the profitability of a business) and are equal to or a significant improvement upon the non-web-based counterparts, this change will have been for naught and heads should (and probably will) roll at Wizards.
I disagree. I think that good communication could have alleviated much of the anger over the delay of the updates and could have been used in a way that would promote the upcoming web-based tools instead of causing the feeling of dread that seems to have permeated the forums.
Unfortunately, communication and good project management in the software division (who the heck decided that causing the delay when many yearly customers are up for renewal and Christmas is around the corner would be a good idea?) has never been one of WotC's strong points. I don't believe that this is sinister in any way. I simply see it as a failing both in customer service and marketing.
Unless these web-based tools are available in November (when marketing of new products is essential to the profitability of a business) and are equal to or a significant improvement upon the non-web-based counterparts, this change will have been for naught and heads should (and probably will) roll at Wizards.
But honestly, if they told us in August that there were delays in the updates and it won't happen until October, how many people would have still paid the subscription price for just the magazines?
*this is me, not raising my hand*
But honestly, if they told us in August that there were delays in the updates and it won't happen until October, how many people would have still paid the subscription price for just the magazines?
*this is me, not raising my hand*
I would still have, because that would have told me that while they had some unexpected events that were delaying things they were trying to get on top of it and it would especially have told me that they cared enough about me as a customer to be honest.
But honestly, if they told us in August that there were delays in the updates and it won't happen until October, how many people would have still paid the subscription price for just the magazines?
*this is me, not raising my hand*
How many refunds have they given out so far? Would the losses have been as great if they had communicated with their subscribers? Their actions, while they certainly would have lost some subscribers, would have placated many of them. Instead, after leaving their customers hanging without information, they made people (myself included) far more angry than was necessary. If done well, we might have even been excited about those upcoming web-based tools.
But honestly, if they told us in August that there were delays in the updates and it won't happen until October, how many people would have still paid the subscription price for just the magazines?
*this is me, not raising my hand*
How many refunds have they given out so far? Would the losses have been as great if they had communicated with their subscribers? Their actions, while they certainly would have lost some subscribers, would have placated many of them. Instead, after leaving their customers hanging without information, they made people (myself included) far more angry than was necessary. If done well, we might have even been excited about those upcoming web-based tools.
Probably not that many; there are 40+ thousand members just from the group membership count and I doubt a significant number requested a refund (given the hassle). Probably many more turned off autorenewal, but I wouldn't estimate it was a huge financial loss overall. I suspect the goodwill cost was a lot higher (I'd guess they're more worried that there are a lot of people here who won't extend the benefit of the doubt easily anymore).
I bet that they could have defused this entire brouhaha with, like, two posts back in early September. A shame. Maybe things will change (one can hope, right?)
I canceled mine. Sadly I had been really dedicated and have been buying yearly subscriptions, but when it expires it will take a lot to make me want to resubscribe. I really hope this new Web based tool is worth it to WotC. Cause currently it isn't worth it to me.
That being stated, could the PR division been more eloquaint with it? Yeah, of course. They still gave you info though, and now all is left are the people who were never going to be happy from the onset. Just because they didn't give you the info that you wanted, doesn't mean they didn't give you info. Delays happen and other stuff goes wrong. You are all speculating on what they should have added and not added. Guess what, there were a group of people that wanted Dark Sun, there was a group of people that also wanted Psionic, I know I was in the group that wanted Essentials and I knew many others in that group as well. Looks like they mainly only put psionic and some essentials stuff at the moment. I'll take it. Could be worse, they could be like EA, where they will directly sell you a non-playable game and then expect you to wait for the patch to come out. Instead, they just put everything on hold so that they can deliver a stable product. I haven't really tried hardcore to break it, but I have yet to see any issues with the current version.
So yeah, the people that are pissed off in this thread were always going to be pissed off. Glad that they didn't respond to them. I deal enough of those types of customers when I go to work. Yes, you do have the right to complain. Yes, you have the right to be angry. They also have the right to ignore you. I know I do when I get that kind of customer. I try to get them bought into something they will be willing to accept. Can't please all people.
Before you try to say that there is a lot of angry people like myself, take a look at this thread and the similar threads. Go through it, and count the number of different people complaining. From what I have seen might not go more than 20 different posters. Even if there is 5x that number of people equally angry, that is still less than 1% of the subs. You are in worse than than a minority of people, you are on the fringes of the .
Xiao
You are in worse than than a minority of people, you are on the fringes of the crazies. Xiao
Hey, is this like calling someone a koolaider or shill? Hmmm, prolly not since it is a WotC fan and not someone expressing a legitimate complaint. I wonder if my kooaider comment gets put back up. NAY
"They communicated it"
No, there was no real communication, there was silence.
"They didn't go into the details of what was the exact issue of the CB, but they did announce it nonetheless"
They did not need to go into details on the problems, they needed to go into details on the plan to prevent further delays. For players like me, this was the culmination of years of problems.
"could the PR division been more eloquaint"
There was no PR department active, there was few brave volunteers and Trevor. None actually working with the Character Builder.
"They still gave you info"
No, they gave none such that really mattered: Such as: What is happening? What are you doing? Why did this happen? What are you doing to prevent this? Why weren't we told? Why did we have to dig into the forums when you have a news widget on your front page? et.c. …
"Just because they didn't give you the info that you wanted, doesn't mean they didn't give you info"
Think about it. That's about the most stupid argument ever in this discussion.
"You are all speculating on what they should have added and not added"
That is very easy to prevent by giving relevant information. Took a while to do just that, but it came.
"there were a group of people that wanted Dark Sun"
You say that like they are not worth something.
"there was a group of people that also wanted Psionic"
So? You say that too like they are not worth anything.
"I was in the group that wanted Essentials"
So? Because people want different things that have been running late Wizards of the Coast are excused from their errors?
"Looks like they mainly only put psionic"
They did not, they did put out bits and pieces of the psionic book, but not even everything needed to create a starting psionics character.
"Could be worse, they could be like EA"
Over at the EA forums: "Could be worse, you could be living in North Korea." Or, in other words, why should we excuse WotC because another company is acting bad?
"expect you to wait for the patch to come out"
They have made me wait for patches for almost a year now. Why is this acceptable because another company is doing it?
"Instead, they just put everything on hold so that they can deliver a stable product"
I lol'd. Upon installing this update my lvl dragonborn 15 cleric was suddenly showing as having no languages and no dragon breath, it also decided that my amulet of scales is houseruled for some odd reason.
"I have yet to see any issues with the current version"
Character portraits are still bugged and over eighty mounts are missing, some from the earliest books. Try those for a start.
"the people that are pissed off in this thread were always going to be pissed off"
And some people are never going to leave their parent's basement. Your point being?
"Glad that they didn't respond to them"
They did.
"I deal enough of those types of customers when I go to work."
Good for you!
"Go through it, and count the number of different people complaining. From what I have seen might not go more than 20 different posters"
I see at least 90, some actually signing up on the forum only to express their feelings on the matter. Anyone actually working with consumer satisfaction will know that there is a big threshold to cross for customers to do such things and that will signify a much larger portion of customers being silent and angry.
"You are in worse than than a minority of people, you are on the fringes of the crazies"
Thanks, so are you!
I would like to remind everyone of a couple of things:
- Please be polite in your posts. Calling people koolaiders, shills or crazies does not help at all in keeping the tone of the threads at a level where conversation and discussion can take place.
- If there is a post that you think violates the CoC, please report it via the "report post" button and explain why you think that the post violates the CoC.
I have been a subscriber since the inception of DDI, I was depressed when the character visualizer never materialized but got over it. I went elsewhere for my VTT (Maptools) and am begrudgingly fine with that. However now when I come on the site I find it gummed up with product placements ads which most "gold membership" sites would take down once you bought in and exceedingly lame articles. Yes I pine for the old paper Dragon and Dungeon mags where there were certain requirements for content and length in place, but thats another thread. My point is the only service I really get out of my subscription is the builder. So denying me that is pretty much stealing my money. There would, in a perfect world, be a refund for the past 2 months to all subscribers and a suspension of fees until they get this worked out.
My opinion, in its entirety.
StanC
Your spot on man , these people have no idea how difficult programming architecture really is.
From a programming perspective, customer service perspective and sales perspective, I believe that WotC dropped the ball on this one.
Again...
I don't care about the excuse of how hard it is to code the changes they made themselves. I care that I pay for updates to material so I can run my campaign and make my character sheets accurate without spending my life doing it by hand. If WOTC can't manage the service, then give us our money back for the months they can't manage it. Period.
I will cancel my auto renew for the amount of months this service was not carried out properly when my current sub is up if I am not reimbursed.
Heres all I'm gona say, I hope its polite enough.
I have been a subscriber since the inception of DDI, I was depressed when the character visualizer never materialized but got over it. I went elsewhere for my VTT (Maptools) and am begrudgingly fine with that. However now when I come on the site I find it gummed up with product placements ads which most "gold membership" sites would take down once you bought in and exceedingly lame articles. Yes I pine for the old paper Dragon and Dungeon mags where there were certain requirements for content and length in place, but thats another thread. My point is the only service I really get out of my subscription is the builder. So denying me that is pretty much stealing my money. There would, in a perfect world, be a refund for the past 2 months to all subscribers and a suspension of fees until they get this worked out.
My opinion, in its entirety.
Just so that you know, Customer Service are actually pretty good at responding to refund requests. I have asked for and got a refund for both September and October. I also intend to keep requesting refunds every month until the CB/MB updates are back on schedule. I have books I have spent money on expecting electronic support and I have no electronic support so until that is delivered, I will continue to ask for my money back.
Again...
I don't care about the excuse of how hard it is to code the changes they made themselves. I care that I pay for updates to material so I can run my campaign and make my character sheets accurate without spending my life doing it by hand. If WOTC can't manage the service, then give us our money back for the months they can't manage it. Period.
I will cancel my auto renew for the amount of months this service was not carried out properly when my current sub is up if I am not reimbursed.
If you contact CS and ask for a refund for september, you will get a refund for september. Make sure that the credit card/paypal account that you used to pay is still valid, of course, and you should be fine. I have also noticed people asking for refunds for october and getting them. Just remember to make sure that you choose the correct settings ("Online Gaming > D&D Insider > D&D Insider Account") from the drop-down menus, otherwise it may significantly delay the turnaround time.
Again...
I don't care about the excuse of how hard it is to code the changes they made themselves. I care that I pay for updates to material so I can run my campaign and make my character sheets accurate without spending my life doing it by hand. If WOTC can't manage the service, then give us our money back for the months they can't manage it. Period.
I will cancel my auto renew for the amount of months this service was not carried out properly when my current sub is up if I am not reimbursed.
If you contact CS and ask for a refund for september, you will get a refund for september. Make sure that the credit card/paypal account that you used to pay is still valid, of course, and you should be fine. I have also noticed people asking for refunds for october and getting them. Just remember to make sure that you choose the correct settings ("Online Gaming > D&D Insider > D&D Insider Account") from the drop-down menus, otherwise it may significantly delay the turnaround time.
mudbunny
I cannot even find a way to notify them about DDi. The email and knowledge base doesn't give me an option to select DDI as the issue. Did you call?
Click on the Email Us tab.
Sign in (if required)
Choose from the drop-down menus the options I indicated above.
Also, the customer service email link that mudbunny provided sends me into an endless series of redirects, which is not only frustrating but further undermines my belief that WotC can deliver electronic products in a timely and capable manner.
I guess I'm not going to run the Dark Sun campaign I was planning, but Warhammer Fantasy Role-play looks like a lot of fun, and I'm sure Fantasy Flight Games will appreciate the business. Maybe if WotC/Hasbro decides to invest in customer service again I'll come back.
Also, the customer service email link that mudbunny provided sends me into an endless series of redirects, which is not only frustrating but further undermines my belief that WotC can deliver electronic products in a timely and capable manner.
If the Email us tab sends you into redirect heck, this can be fixed.
Go to the thread here, read the instructions in the OP and post in the thread. You should be contacted by an ORC within a couple of days. Make sure that the amil that is on your profile is a functioning, valid email.
There's no redirects about it. You hit the 'Email Us' tab on the link and you are greeted with an email submission form. I received a response to confirm my subscription information within 24 hours, followed by an email that the situation is being reviewed and a response regarding my request will be received in 8 to 10 days.
The link mudbunny provided was fine. Here it is again, but directly to the 'Email Us' tab. I used it two days ago and requested a refund for both September and October. If you follow mudbunny's link you hit the 'Email Us' tab then for 'Select a Topic:' Choose 'Online Gaming' > 'D&D Insider' > 'D&D Insider Account', if you follow mine, you start with 'Select a Topic:'...
There's no redirects about it. You hit the 'Email Us' tab on the link and you are greeted with an email submission form. I received a response to confirm my subscription information within 24 hours, followed by an email that the situation is being reviewed and a response regarding my request will be received in 8 to 10 days.
There are some accounts (and WotC has never been able to figure out what the server uses tio decide this) who get stuck in a continual redirect when trying to get to the WotC help system. The link I provided to the thread above is where people with that problem can go to get the proper setting on their account restored so that they can access the help system.
And, before anyone asks, WotC has said that it is not something that can be easily fixed by running a batch process or script on the entire user database.
The link mudbunny provided was fine. Here it is again, but directly to the 'Email Us' tab. I used it two days ago and requested a refund for both September and October. If you follow mudbunny's link you hit the 'Email Us' tab then for 'Select a Topic:' Choose 'Online Gaming' > 'D&D Insider' > 'D&D Insider Account', if you follow mine, you start with 'Select a Topic:'...
There's no redirects about it. You hit the 'Email Us' tab on the link and you are greeted with an email submission form. I received a response to confirm my subscription information within 24 hours, followed by an email that the situation is being reviewed and a response regarding my request will be received in 8 to 10 days.
There are some accounts (and WotC has never been able to figure out what the server uses tio decide this) who get stuck in a continual redirect when trying to get to the WotC help system. The link I provided to the thread above is where people with that problem can go to get the proper setting on their account restored so that they can access the help system.
And, before anyone asks, WotC has said that it is not something that can be easily fixed by running a batch process or script on the entire user database.
Noted, forgive my ignorance of the situation and my apologies to those experiencing the issue. I was unaware.
That's not a helicopter off in the distance, that's me, just a few states over, banging my head against my desk in frustration over my own questions concerning that very thing.
No news is decidedly not good news.
perhaps the dark sun update is a subtle one... to get the characters used to famine
Kudos, sir, kudos.
character builder is going WEB BASED NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
ok pulled self together...
Michael
Yay. I get something that I already have.
But slightly less useful! Even better!
Are they not keeping the old client as well and give two options?
No, not really - the old client will not be uninstalled from your machine without your consent or anything, but it will no longer be updated as of whenever that last update was (October 12th) nor supported, IIRC from the announcement. If you want new content (including content that should actually be in the old client, like Dark Sun and Heroes of the Fallen Lands), you will need to maintain your subscription and use the new web-based version.
So there's really the old and busted client with no updates (and no way to download a fresh copy) or the web-based new hotness.
It's true. I could go and play AD&D if I wanted to. I also hear there are other RPGs on the market these days. Maybe I'll check one or two of those out, too.
I like having a tool that lets me update my PC's quickly and easily.
I like being able to do that from anywhere. I don't like internet access being required to update my characters.
Or maybe I'll go back to the old school and just use a pencil and a piece of paper to keep track of my characters.
It's also possible that I'll just decide I already have all the material I need to play D&D, and just stop buying more. After all, how many powers do I really need to be able to see?
The Character Builder was the only reason I subscribed to DDI. Dragon is nice. I occasionally look at Dungeon. The other tools never really made it off the starting line.
I need to have a long chat with my wife - my subscription is half hers, you see, so I don't get to make the decision alone.
If it were up to me alone, though, I'd walk away right now.
I'm very disappointed with this decision.
Step #1) take away that option for the CB by making it web based.
Step #2) do the same for both magazines, eliminating the save option.
Step #3) make the Monster Builder also web based and enforce the silly copyright message at the bottom of each custom made monster.
Step #4) run off all your customers who were enjoying things the way they were.
(Steps 2-4 are my opinion only, but of course you all knew that, right?)
Personally, I think this is a wonderful opportunity to reconnect with our characters. CB has made us lazy min-maxers to some degree. I think getting back to pencils and blank character sheets is a good thing. A friend of mine who is an old-school gamer, but never really a hardcore one, played in my 4th edition game. Recently, he came to me with a friend of his who played decades ago and they asked me to run a 1st edition game. It wasn't the first time I'd heard this request or the assertion that old-school rpgs are better, but it was the first time I heard this argument:
I want to feel the dice in my hand and let fate, destiny or whatever take over. I want to use a pencil, not a pen, never a pen, because we grow, and I want to see my character in my own handwriting. I want to invest my energy into him and give him life.
I think he might be on to something. I think building our characters like they were machines with tools and parts robs the experience of some of the intimacy. But I do think we can recapture that feeling without abandoning all the cool goodness of 4th edition. Sharpen your pencils, tomorrow waits for no one.
No, there was no real communication, there was silence.
They did not need to go into details on the problems, they needed to go into details on the plan to prevent further delays. For players like me, this was the culmination of years of problems.
Sorry, you're simply wrong. I know I got the announcement when they informed people the update was going to be late. And I got the update when they gave early October as the target date, complete with an apology for missing the scheduled update in the first place. That's called 'communication'.
As for giving "details on the plan to prevent further delays", there's probably about 10 people in this thread with the technical background to understand details of that sort. I'm willing to bet you're not one of them. (A hint: the details on the plan to prevent further delays would have included details on changes to the Character Builder's core engine, how data is gathered and encoded for use, and other such technical subject matter. Anything less detailed than that would have been a pointless middle ground that didn't add any useful information to the mix.) It's certainly not like missing an update (or even two) makes the character builder useless, or prevents you from using the books the update would include.
Personally, as a Mac user, I'm thrilled that we're finally going to be getting tools that don't require me to run Windows in a VM. I'm a bit curious about the UI changes involved, but as long as I can print my players' character sheets when I need to I'm thrilled to have the character builder.
Disclosure: I'm a software developer. I don't work for WotC. I never have, and doubt I ever will. (Nothing against them, I'm just in the wrong part of the country.) I'm familiar with how software schedules sometimes go 'beyond plan'. It's a fact of life. It's not a personal insult when it happens.I'm more interested in having a usable tool than complaining about how it gets to me. Apparently WotC is good about processing refunds in situations like this, even while you keep access to the rest of the D&DI subscriber-only content. If you're not happy with that, I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with having an offline application. We do not always have access to the internet.
Just my quick thoughts.
Regards
Having to always be online, and then save on their servers is irritating. I understand why they did it, but still...it's suboptimal.
If you spent less time and money worring about piracy you wouldnt have a problem. You do realize that you could combat a good portion of the piracy issue by having people log into the character builder with their DDI account. Or have them activate it online. How much did you spend on new servers and web development vs what it would cost to make a few simple changes to your program? I also hope you realize that putting the character builder strictly on your site isnt going to fully prevent piracy either. There are plenty of people who would be able to hack your site and download the character builder.
I may not have a subscription but my room mate and sevral of my friends do and I know for a fact most of them are going to discontinue their subscriptions if this sticks. I know I wont be subscribing now even if I could aford it.
I really hope all the complaints persuade you to keep the character builder in an offline format as you can see many people feel it would be a big mistake. Dont give up on the online character builder either if you could make it so the two character builders could work together that would be great then you would have a lot of flexability with the character builder.
I don't post much but I felt i had to voice my opinion.
I realy like the CB and the MB realy cut down on prep time for the games I run.
Needing internet access means I won't be able to use these programs to quickly check stuff and just have them open with all the data right there during the sessions.
Why make it only web based? I want to use it ofline, I want to save stuff to my own pc, I don't want to be forced to install silverlight.
I realy hope WotC rethink their tactics for as it stands now they rolled a natural 1 and after it goes live my sub will go offline.
Instead, in a blatant money grab, you break every promise you ever made to your subscribers, and at the same time break the game as well. I'm impressed. I didn't think even Hasbro could pull off a "screw our customers" attitude as thoroughly as you have managed to do it. Incredible.
I bought two one-year subscriptions not long after you annouced DDI pricing. I did so because the promise of what you were going to bring to the table overshadowed the rather expensive software I was buying. But, now, 15 months in, and my investment has been unilaterally declared worthless.
Since I'm stuck with the now-worthless product you sold me (and thus I'm a captive audience), I'll admit you still have one chance to redeem yourselves. If by the time my subscription runs out you have managed to extend your "cloud" to my computer (i.e. removed the Internet-only requirement and allow me to play on MY time and MY terms), AND if the new product overshadows the old sufficiently, I will consider staying in the fold. Otherwise, sadly, I'm out $500 and permanently separated from the best game ever made.
I know this will fall on deaf ears, but please reconsider making the Character Builder be downloadable and usable on our computers.
I have been paying $9.95 a month for the DDi stuff, but will probably cancel my DDi subscription.
-GR
Seriously people, I can see dropping your subscription, but to say the game is now over is melodramatic at best. It's a game people, A GAME, you get out of it what you put into it and you cannot cast blame and shame on WOTC because they are offering products you don't want. 4E has a solid foundation, use what you like and ignore what you don't, it's only mandatory if you let it be. The CB was a tool, not the whole reason I play, same with the MB, I have no problem doing things the old school way, I just don't always have the time and it made it easy for me. That's what America has become, the "easy" place. We as a society have become complacent and lazy, this is yet another example of that. If you think the CB sucks, cancel your subscription, demand refunds for the difference, and go back to writing them out by hand, it’s really not that hard when you think about it. They have already made the choice and are not going to turn back because someone on the message boards said they should.
Seriously people, I can see dropping your subscription, but to say the game is now over is melodramatic at best. It's a game people, A GAME, you get out of it what you put into it and you cannot cast blame and shame on WOTC because they are offering products you don't want. 4E has a solid foundation, use what you like and ignore what you don't, it's only mandatory if you let it be. The CB was a tool, not the whole reason I play, same with the MB, I have no problem doing things the old school way, I just don't always have the time and it made it easy for me. That's what America has become, the "easy" place. We as a society have become complacent and lazy, this is yet another example of that. If you think the CB sucks, cancel your subscription, demand refunds for the difference, and go back to writing them out by hand, it’s really not that hard when you think about it. They have already made the choice and are not going to turn back because someone on the message boards said they should.
You're missing the point. 4E has been built and designed as a computer-age game. It is far too complicated to be played without computer assistance, assuming you don't want to spend your whole life managing stuff. Wizards got those of us who like 4E to buy into this philosophy (very complicated is acceptable because we have good tools).
At the same time as Wizards was creating DDI, they were also carefully and methodically eliminating any possible competition in the form of 3rd party tools.
The bottom line is that today, CB is essentially required to play the game. There's nothing else available to replace it. Further, if anybody writes a tool to do it, Wizards will attack them with their lawyers. Despite being on the right side of the law, most people will capitulate simply because they can't afford to fight it out in court.
I'm could try to write a database that will replace CB and another that will replace MB. But, that's going to be a LOT of work, and I expect will take years to complete (if it ever can be). At my age, that's a commitment that's going to be hard to carry to completion.
If you doubt that I'm correct, then answer the question: Why didn't Wizards announce this change months ago, when they first started coming up with it? The answers to that question show why it is going to be difficult to play 4E without it.
You're missing the point. 4E has been built and designed as a computer-age game. It is far too complicated to be played without computer assistance, assuming you don't want to spend your whole life managing stuff. Wizards got those of us who like 4E to buy into this philosophy (very complicated is acceptable because we have good tools).
If you doubt that I'm correct, then answer the question: Why didn't Wizards announce this change months ago, when they first started coming up with it? The answers to that question show why it is going to be difficult to play 4E without it.
Actually, your comment about it being too complicated without computers only proves my point. When I was teaching my kids (9-16 years) how to play, they didn't use the CB at all and had no problems with the game, learning or playing. Whereas it might be true for you, it is certainly not true for everyone else. Only two members of my group are using the CB and that is simply by choice, the rest do it by hand and have absolutely no complaints about it.
As for the answer to your question, WOTC bit off more than they could chew at the announcement of 4E and they learned that lesson because they announced plans that never came about. The Monster Builder was only announced shortly before its release, so it would stand true that they keep this close to the chest as well, and I can't say I blame them.
Once again, playing 4E without computers can be done without any problems, but if you like things made painfully easy for you, then that is merely a personal issue and in no way any sort of validation to your claim.
I stand by my statement that the game is very difficult to play without computer access. While the time at the table itself doesn't require a computer (although having one is extremely valuable -- with the right tools), the overall playing of the game does indeed require it. Unless you are willing to state that you use no computing assets whatsoever (including spreadsheets, etc.) then your example is not relevant.
I put thousands of hours into developing tools for 3E and 4E. By far, the bulk of that was for 3E, because for 4E Wizards made a good move and created a subscription to Character Builder. For 4E, the only thing I had to create was a combat manager and a treasure and experience point manager.
Until this week's announcement, I didn't realize even the one critical component that made CB useful: It was available even when the Internet was not. As I've said elsewhere, I have Comcast. They are somewhat legendary in their ability to not provide the service they're contracted for. Internet access is simply not reliable at any moment in time. To have CB go down in the middle of gaming setup would cause the whole night to be ruined. It's simply unacceptable to require Internet access.
All the information you need is in the books, as it has been since the begining of the game, the computer tools are merely aids and if over used, they become a crutch.
...All the information you need is in the books, as it has been since the begining of the game, the computer tools are merely aids and if over used, they become a crutch.
I agree, this seems like an awfully big hullabaloo over what in the long run seems like it will provide a better experience. The game comes in book form, and has been played using books for a long time. Requiring internet access to use certain really useful tools, doesn't change that. Saying the game is unplayable without the character builder, in particular, is a gross exaggeration. I'm not saying that the end experience for some people might be harmed. I for one, live in the compendium, browsing it in my free time, and use it extensively for character creation, rather than searching multiple books. I can get by without it, but I'll really miss it the next time I deploy and am stuck with only a few books.
Yes, the cost of insider may have increased for some people, but let's be serious, it's still fairly priced. Having access to the compendium alone is worth the price. It's cheaper than buying all the books which was the previous option out there. I guess I really just don't understand all this backlash over something that is still kind of just a side dish for the main course.
I really do feel bad for some people, those without internet access, or who can't access the tools at work when they may have time to do some building, but I also felt bad for people who couldn't get the old builder to work on their computer, but might be able to now.
Even if your answers are all yes, which I doubt, I am not willing to stoop to such levels. I've used computers to track D&D information since 1984. I'm not going back to gaming in the 1970s or early 1980s just because Wizards (and you guys) can't understand how important their tool is (or, was, in 2 weeks).
IF (and that's a big if) our group decides to keep playing, we'll do one of two things: Either I will write tools to replace the functionality which has been removed from what I subscribed for, or we'll try to keep using the old CB.
Unfortunately, Wizards has quite obviously purposely lied to and covered up their plans so thoroughly that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to justify buying another book from them. So, even playing the game at all is in jeopardy.
Further, since they will officially no longer support the working tool, if it ever breaks our game will come to a screeching halt instantly (unless I've written my replacement before then). So, I think we're going to finish out Pyramid of Shadows and after that we'll have to find a different game to play. I'm telling family members not to buy any D&D books as Christmas presents this year in anticipation of that.
*Woops, just almost got Troll**** on my shoe there*
I would say this was incredibly insensitive of WOTC, but I did notice lately an emphasis on keeping printed material in line with current errata. So if they release a print product in the digest size at a reasonable price annually, to update the rules, you get the same benefit at a reduced rate with a little extra effort on your part.
Which brings up another broken promise by WotC; when Mearls first trotted out Essentials it was supposed to be a side-project product, completely optional.
Suddenly now Essentials rules are OFFICIAL 4E rules and the old 4E rules are errata'd away;
if you want to run a campaign with the original rules AND the Character Builder, too bad, the latest CB update builds characters racial features and equipment purchasing according to the Essentials rules instead of the PHB rules.
Whatever happened to "It's YOUR world, make of it what you like"?
Instead we're being pigeon-holed into playing in Essentials-land instead of the Fourth Edition I originally purchased.
So, you're both saying you don't track experience points, gold, magic items, bonuses granted by magic items, weight, or anything else using a computer. It's all done on paper. Is this correct? How about power cards? Do you print them? Or, do you force all of your players to look up (or memorize) the power cards so they can chose which one(s) to use during each turn?
Even if your answers are all yes, which I doubt, I am not willing to stoop to such levels. I've used computers to track D&D information since 1984. I'm not going back to gaming in the 1970s or early 1980s just because Wizards (and you guys) can't understand how important their tool is (or, was, in 2 weeks).
IF (and that's a big if) our group decides to keep playing, we'll do one of two things: Either I will write tools to replace the functionality which has been removed from what I subscribed for, or we'll try to keep using the old CB.
Unfortunately, Wizards has quite obviously purposely lied to and covered up their plans so thoroughly that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to justify buying another book from them. So, even playing the game at all is in jeopardy.
Further, since they will officially no longer support the working tool, if it ever breaks our game will come to a screeching halt instantly (unless I've written my replacement before then). So, I think we're going to finish out Pyramid of Shadows and after that we'll have to find a different game to play. I'm telling family members not to buy any D&D books as Christmas presents this year in anticipation of that.
I prepare everything on paper, and so do my players (though they do use the Character Builder to sort all the options for them - building their character there and then writing it down).
I have even had my players write their powers on note paper and not one of them complained, though they do prefer to write on printed power cards for organization and tracking purposes at the table (such as flipping over spent powers, and grouping powers by frequency).
I even create custom monsters on paper - it is literally just as easy as using the monster builder, the only benefit of which is that I can export a monster block that looks like the ones in the book, and resize that to take up less space on a page than a written out monster would. If I didn't have penmenship so horrible it makes "doctor scratch" look like 36 pt Times New Roman, even that wouldn't be an issue.
While our groups main computers were unavailable, we even made some paragon tier characters strictly on paper using the books that we own... and it went just fine.
Computer aided campaign and character prep is convenient. It is not necessary.
Whatever happened to "It's YOUR world, make of it what you like"?
It's still there. You bought the books, you know where the updates are, you choose what to use.
Including the choice to use Character Builder - which you do not have to do - which just happens to include choosing to either a) use all updates, or b) reverse any updated rules manually.
The choice is still 100% yours, and you can do whatever you want with YOUR world.
Like most working people, time is important, I don't always have time to go through all the books, several dragon articles and the piles of errata that 4e now comes with.
Losing the facility to work offline is a big issue when more than 50% of your prep time comes during periods where there is no internet access.
My group has decided to stop at the last classic charecter builder update, finish our campaign and then go find another game to play.
If the changes don't affect you that fine, but don't snear at people who it is a significant problem for.
They way it was handled was a joke and a major reason that I've cancelled my subscription.
Peace out. I'm done. Everyone else has adequitly sumerized the reasons why. I hear that ICE has revamped Rolemaster... I'll give that a try. Now how do I get my prorated subsription to insider back for the rest of this year?
Talk to Customer Service. I hear that at least one other user was successful in getting 6 months (or something like that) refunded.
Suddenly now Essentials rules are OFFICIAL 4E rules and the old 4E rules are errata'd away;
if you want to run a campaign with the original rules AND the Character Builder, too bad, the latest CB update builds characters racial features and equipment purchasing according to the Essentials rules instead of the PHB rules.
There is no Essential Rules and Non-Essential Rules. There is one set of Rules 4E uses that have seen updates in the pasts and that the latest print reflect, the Essential Rule Compendium. Items Rarity was introduced just as Essentials came out for exemple. So is the newest Flying Rule for exemple, updated months before it.
Stuff like Magic Missile could be attributed to Essentials i concur. But so too is Racial flex stats which not many disapprouves. So there is stuff that will not please eveyone. Just so as many of its books before.
But the reality is that the grand majority of Essential does not change what 4E previously gave, but bring what changes 4E has endured up to this date, or would have too anyway in a near future and it brings new options you are free to use or not.
As for the latest Web Tools, they will reflect the latest Rule changes wether they are coming from Essential or not. The Online Compendium has always been. The CB just is too.
I just see that Essential has taken alot on his back for changes that happened sometime before or at the same time of its release, that would have happened anyway as per the Developpers.
Tomatoes fly quicker than flowers one must admit.
You're missing the point. 4E has been built and designed as a computer-age game. It is far too complicated to be played without computer assistance, assuming you don't want to spend your whole life managing stuff. Wizards got those of us who like 4E to buy into this philosophy (very complicated is acceptable because we have good tools).
At the same time as Wizards was creating DDI, they were also carefully and methodically eliminating any possible competition in the form of 3rd party tools.
The bottom line is that today, CB is essentially required to play the game. There's nothing else available to replace it. Further, if anybody writes a tool to do it, Wizards will attack them with their lawyers. Despite being on the right side of the law, most people will capitulate simply because they can't afford to fight it out in court.
This is innaccurate at best. Have you ever played any other pen and paper games? How about 3rd edition? Pathfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, and 3rd edition DnD are both WAY more complicated than 4e DnD. 4e is kindergarden simple compared to M+M, in my opinion.
Also, there are quite a few third party character creation software programs that are available either free or for a price. Try Herolab or any of the dozens of excel based creators out there.
You're missing the point. 4E has been built and designed as a computer-age game. It is far too complicated to be played without computer assistance, assuming you don't want to spend your whole life managing stuff. Wizards got those of us who like 4E to buy into this philosophy (very complicated is acceptable because we have good tools).
At the same time as Wizards was creating DDI, they were also carefully and methodically eliminating any possible competition in the form of 3rd party tools.
The bottom line is that today, CB is essentially required to play the game. There's nothing else available to replace it. Further, if anybody writes a tool to do it, Wizards will attack them with their lawyers. Despite being on the right side of the law, most people will capitulate simply because they can't afford to fight it out in court.
I'm could try to write a database that will replace CB and another that will replace MB. But, that's going to be a LOT of work, and I expect will take years to complete (if it ever can be). At my age, that's a commitment that's going to be hard to carry to completion.
If you doubt that I'm correct, then answer the question: Why didn't Wizards announce this change months ago, when they first started coming up with it? The answers to that question show why it is going to be difficult to play 4E without it.
Wow....just...wow.
Let's break this down, point by 'point'.
You're missing the point. 4E has been built and designed as a computer-age game. It is far too complicated to be played without computer assistance, assuming you don't want to spend your whole life managing stuff. Wizards got those of us who like 4E to buy into this philosophy (very complicated is acceptable because we have good tools).
You say you've been gaming since the 80's, so you must know 2nd Edition and 3rd edition. You're really going to argue that somehow 4th Edition is as complex as those two? I'm sorry, but both as a DM and a player, I find 4th Edition much easier to track and to rate. Everything I need can be stored on my character sheet or power cards (I'll get to those in a second). I don't need every rule manual ever - I can play just as well with my Core Books as I can with every manual they've released. The fundamentals haven't changed dramatically within the various Core Books, which is a sharp contrast to 2E and, for the most part 3E. 4E isn't as complex as previous editions, which has been a GRIPE on this forum, and for gamers in general, since its inception.
Power Cards - You do realize you can print blank ones of these from your tools or PHOTOCOPY them and then have the same effect even without the CB, right? It's not that hard to run your own totals and your own values and then write them in. We did it for YEARS before the CB. You're losing convenience, here, but not functionality.
At the same time as Wizards was creating DDI, they were also carefully and methodically eliminating any possible competition in the form of 3rd party tools.
Probably as a result of what happened with 3E and the OGL. I'd want to eliminate competition too, when you consider what Pathfinder did to 3E. This is a big, fat, DUH from the marketing standpoint. McDonalds would love the ability to go out and completely control how a hamburger is made so it could eliminate the Whopper. I'm not saying this is right, but, c'mon - it's a duh. You don't purposefully put yourself out of business by creating a model where anyone can come in and take your system and possibly replace it with something else.
The bottom line is that today, CB is essentially required to play the game. There's nothing else available to replace it. Further, if anybody writes a tool to do it, Wizards will attack them with their lawyers. Despite being on the right side of the law, most people will capitulate simply because they can't afford to fight it out in court.
I'm assuming, given the eloquence of your typing, that you are a fully functioning human with two hands. Therefore, go to Staples and purchase an archaic device known as a pencil. Then, to Barnes and Noble (or better yet, your local gaming store) and purchase what are known as the "Core" books - If you only want to play, you only really need the Player's Handbook (pick a version). If you want to run a game, I recommend both volumes of the DM's handbook. You'll need a monster manual as well. That takes care of the first sentence - the CB is NOT required to play. It is nice that everything is sorted and organized in a database, but you can do the same thing with sticky notes and pencils.
As to the "right side of the law", that's a completely wrong statement. The fact of the matter is, should you release a commercial version of a tool to compete with theirs, and it does violate their TOS and Copywrite protection, you are NOT on the 'right side of the law. You are breaking the law, plain and simple. You may feel as though this is OK and that you should have free-market rain on their product, but, when it comes down to brass tacks, THEY own the database and character tools, not you. You're only paying for access. It's not the right side of the law, no matter how you look at it.
I'm could try to write a database that will replace CB and another that will replace MB. But, that's going to be a LOT of work, and I expect will take years to complete (if it ever can be). At my age, that's a commitment that's going to be hard to carry to completion.
That's your choice. As you point out, you COULD do it, but it would take a lot of time and effort. Start a community effort to do it, organize it, and then let others do the work for you. That's still your choice.
If you doubt that I'm correct, then answer the question: Why didn't Wizards announce this change months ago, when they first started coming up with it? The answers to that question show why it is going to be difficult to play 4E without it.
Simple: They've been torn a new one EVERY TIME there has been a lack of updates and changes to the system. It was more convenient and better for them to just let us sit here and wonder and speculate, and fume than it was for them to make the announcement and then give you two extra months to fume and pick at it. Marketing wise, financial wise, all of it was to their benefit. Which is, don't forget, the POINT of having a company. They do have a responsibility to their employees and to their stockholders/investors to turn a profit, and this was the best way for them to meet it on their end. Was it under-handed? Yeah, a bit. Was it misleading? Yeah, a bit. Was it smart, financially? Yes.
Peace out. I'm done. Everyone else has adequitly sumerized the reasons why. I hear that ICE has revamped Rolemaster... I'll give that a try. Now how do I get my prorated subsription to insider back for the rest of this year?
Talk to Customer Service. I hear that at least one other user was successful in getting 6 months (or something like that) refunded.
Thanks Mock! They gave me 10 months back. Now if they only start working to regain my trust and treating the players with some respect so I can resubscribe.
Peace out. I'm done. Everyone else has adequitly sumerized the reasons why. I hear that ICE has revamped Rolemaster... I'll give that a try. Now how do I get my prorated subsription to insider back for the rest of this year?
Talk to Customer Service. I hear that at least one other user was successful in getting 6 months (or something like that) refunded.
Thanks Mock! They gave me 10 months back. Now if they only start working to regain my trust and treating the players with some respect so I can resubscribe.
Once they processed your refund, did you get a 'do you want to re-subscribe email'?
I sent them an email saying I would do so soon.
Once they processed your refund, did you get a 'do you want to re-subscribe email'?I sent them an email saying I would do so soon.
ROFL, I got one. Never thought to send them an email back.
Suddenly now Essentials rules are OFFICIAL 4E rules and the old 4E rules are errata'd away;
if you want to run a campaign with the original rules AND the Character Builder, too bad, the latest CB update builds characters racial features and equipment purchasing according to the Essentials rules instead of the PHB rules.
There is no Essential Rules and Non-Essential Rules. There is one set of Rules 4E uses that have seen updates in the pasts and that the latest print reflect, the Essential Rule Compendium. Items Rarity was introduced just as Essentials came out for exemple. So is the newest Flying Rule for exemple, updated months before it.
Stuff like Magic Missile could be attributed to Essentials i concur. But so too is Racial flex stats which not many disapprouves. So there is stuff that will not please eveyone. Just so as many of its books before.
But the reality is that the grand majority of Essential does not change what 4E previously gave, but bring what changes 4E has endured up to this date, or would have too anyway in a near future and it brings new options you are free to use or not.
As for the latest Web Tools, they will reflect the latest Rule changes wether they are coming from Essential or not. The Online Compendium has always been. The CB just is too.
I just see that Essential has taken alot on his back for changes that happened sometime before or at the same time of its release, that would have happened anyway as per the Developpers.
Tomatoes fly quicker than flowers one must admit.
Respectfully, I disagree.
Well, except for the tomatoes/flowers bit.
Peace out. I'm done. Everyone else has adequitly sumerized the reasons why. I hear that ICE has revamped Rolemaster... I'll give that a try. Now how do I get my prorated subsription to insider back for the rest of this year?
Talk to Customer Service. I hear that at least one other user was successful in getting 6 months (or something like that) refunded.
Thanks Mock! They gave me 10 months back. Now if they only start working to regain my trust and treating the players with some respect so I can resubscribe.
Once they processed your refund, did you get a 'do you want to re-subscribe email'?
I sent them an email saying I would do so soon.
Thats Awsome! I wish I had thought of that. Unfortunately, soon for me was today. I didn't realize I needed the Insider account to get the Compedium installed into HeroLab... So WotC gets another month out of me...