Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
As far as more details about the Campaign Tools, I don't have any more information for you now, but we should have some details for you soon.
And to think I was just posting a whine about total silence on any upcoming tools.
Here's to looking forward to the upcoming details.
I noticed that mapping is listed as one of the features for the Campign Tools, does this mean that it(assuming it is a single program) will absorb the previously planned tool for map making(I forgot what the official planned name was).
Dungeon Builder
This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).
Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!
First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.
So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).
Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!
First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.
It isn't bait and switch BTW, its called changing their minds. Not that that will change yours. Frankly, I dont care what you play, just clarifying the language here.
And, for the record, i didn't want the VTT or the visual, you just have to realize you don't always get your way. Some of us are going to be happy and some of us aren't. I don't really understand how this affects your ability to play 4e however. But, different strokes and all that.
PS Thank you wotc for moving the VTT and visualizer to the back burner in favor of a robust set of campaign tools for the hardworking DMs out there.
While it is nice that you have said now that you are working on something, why don't you guys just go ahead and announce the cancelation of the other applications at this point? Stop dangling the carrot that some want.
Really, what is the point of not? You can even spin it in your favor by saying that the community did not appear to want those applications so that you are focusing on what they really want.
While this is not surprising, something tells me all is not right in the DDI world.
I would also like to say thanks for a CLEAR update of what is going on. Now let's get some dialog going about what Wizards see the Campaign manager as and what the fans think and go from there.
It would also be nice to get a monthly update: like, we are working of the Campaign Manager - this is a feature we are testing, this is a feature that we are talking about, etc.
Dungeon Builder
Thank you, I do not know why I could not remember that.
So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).
Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!
First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.
How does the lack of these tools make a difference between you playing 4th edition and 3.5? Does it have a visualizer, dungeon builder, and virtual table top? Does WotC really care which version you are playing if you aren't buying new products? I mean if you prefer 3.5 to 4th then that is completely fine, but I wonder why you would play 4th if that is the case. However if you prefer 4th, then don't switch to a system you like less over this just stop buying new stuff so you can make your statement(although I personally doubt it will be enough for WotC to notice).
While it is nice that you have said now that you are working on something, why don't you guys just go ahead and announce the cancelation of the other applications at this point?
Because a backburner does not a cancellation make.
Because a backburner does not a cancellation make.
Talk like that will make you the first one against the wall when the revolution comes. :D
I'm excited to see what you and the team envision for the next tool. Keep the updates coming, even if it is just to say something mundane or technical. Given the polish on the CB and compendium, I'm looking forward to another top tier product.
As for those that are disappointed by the VTT delay, I can understand, but I don't recall ever being PROMISED anything? I saw some plans and some promotion of the plans, but plans change. Stuff happens. Its okay. I'm only paying for what I've got access to.
Anyway, thanks for info, and good luck.
To WotC: thank you. Assuming they are of comparable quality to the Character Builder, these tools will see a lot of use.
When they first imagined the various digital tools, way back when, they came up with the 4 things that they figured that people would want:
- Character builder;
- Character visualizer;
- Virtual Game Table;
- Dungeon Builder.
There was probably some discussion on how it would be cool to be able to take the output from one and pull it into another, especially with the Dungeon Builder and the Game Table.
The following was imagined after 3 bottles of coke and a couple bags of skittles. And semblance to reality should be considered tenuous, at best.
*****
[INDENT]The Character builder was released, and quickly became favourite amongst many of the staff members. However there was still a significant number of holdouts who preferred the "right way" to make a character. Paper, pencil and flipping pages. "It's a fad" they said.
And then, lo, the shining voice of Chris Perkins emerged from the darkness:
[indent]There are lots of tools for players, but why not get more tools for DMs. Let them make the dungeon, populate it, build encounters and manage their whole campaign.[/indent]
There was a pause, followed by a hue and cry from the rest of the staff.
[indent]Our DMs will never stand for that! Encounters, campaigns, combat. You cannot reduce those things to electrons! They are living, breathing creations. Our DMs would not stand for that.[/indent]
Chris Perkins smiled at them with the amused smile of a father looking at his child who just told him that it would be a good idea to mix chocolate in with the spaghetti sauce.
[indent]Go ahead, ask them, those who would use our products. Ask them whether they would like this idea.[/indent]
And lo, the response came back overwhelmingly in favour of this idea, and a new path was chosen.[/INDENT]
******
In all seriousity, doing the campaign tools first has the opportunity to be a good thing for WotC. If they ensure that the output of the campaign manager is able to be fully intergrated into the Game table, the release of the game table will be greeted with not only the content that has been put out by WotC, but with Content that has been created by the customers.
WotC will know, with the GT, what is required due to what people are creating, as opposed to finding out afterwards what people are creating with the campaign manager. The Campaign Manager can thus become, in my mind, the central tool from which the other tools are launched for the DM. Dungeon Builder, Game Table, a tool to manage combat.
So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).
Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!
First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.
I think the old saying is "Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya"
Bye bye
Yes...I'd like to see the game table first. That's me being greedy.
But my schedule means I can only play online now. So a tool that directly enables that is at the top of *my* list.
Campaign tools are all well and good. To me they only really come into use if linked to other tools. Direct import from a character builder...export to a game table...things like that.
So...I'm disappointed that the next tool isn't what *I* would most like.
I'm very pleased to hear solid news.
It seems by their own admission that they were working solely on the CB previously. They now announce these campaign tools, and ignore the VTT. If their attention was hard pressed with CB (to the exclusion of all other projects if I read correctly), now that they are doing campaign tool and still updating CB will there actually be ANY work done on the VTT at all?
Many of us have waited patiently for the VTT to reach fruition. We were saddened to see the VTT and character visualizer pulled from the webpage of DDI but understood that they took some heat on the delays over CB launch so those loyal fans practiced "don't ask/wait for them to tell."
But if the VTT is totally getting sidelined (more like the injured reserve as it seems it will be ignored in development as it has been in this communication), this requires some customer relations on the part of Wizards.
I talked about this on my previous rants. I was directed here hoping to see some glimmer of hope and recommitment on Wizard's part toward developing the VTT as one of the key components of the 4th edition/DDI package they used to drive initial interest in their new product line. I have yet to see that have the slightest concern over this additional delay of VTT.
If they are so cavalier about a subject that was their pursuading argument (and the hook I bit upon) then I seem to have significant differences with the folks running this company.
I am not saying that we have not gotten value for what we paid thus far (some folks keep thinking that is my point). I am saying that we were lead to believe that our support of 4th edition and DDI would lead to these products. And now those products are in limbo, not being discussed, and if Ricky Ricardo was in my gaming group he would certainly tell Wizards, "You got some 'splainin' to do." As a customer I know I am waiting for the explanation and won't be returning to the store until I am satisfied.
Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
While I really love the Character Builder, I have to take issue with Trevor's statement. I and many others are still unable to update the CB on certain computers. This problem has existed since launch and shows no signs of being fixed. If that's WoTC's idea of making the CB "the best tool it could be", then I suggest we should all be more than a little concerned about the quality of the Campaign Manager or any other DDI program presented in the future.
I'm also concerned, based on Trevor's statement, that WoTC's limited resources are being shifted so completely to the CM that the problems with the CB will be given short shrift if they are given any attention at all. A little reassurance would go a long way here. What say you WoTC?
These guys might come up with an idea that no-one knew they needed, and the other projects would slowly move towards completion.
I'm assuming a number (1 or 2) of people on the team are staying on working on the character builder (and probably the compendium at the same time) as it does have a lot of monthly needed work, so other people could pop over and pitch in if thats what they feel like working on.
While I really love the Character Builder, I have to take issue with Trevor's statement. I and many others are still unable to update the CB on certain computers. This problem has existed since launch and shows no signs of being fixed. If that's WoTC's idea of making the CB "the best tool it could be", then I suggest we should all be more than a little concerned about the quality of the Campaign Manager or any other DDI program presented in the future.
I'm also concerned, based on Trevor's statement, that WoTC's limited resources are being shifted so completely to the CM that the problems with the CB will be given short shrift if they are given any attention at all. A little reassurance would go a long way here. What say you WoTC?
I tried to make it clear that as far as unreleased tools are concerned, we're focused on the Campaign Tools and not on anything else. We will constantly be working to update the Character Builder - which includes providing new content for it as that content becomes available, and fixing the bugs we come across.
As far as experiencing problems with updating, I have heard of some issues, but at this point many of the people I've seen have either had their bug fixed or adjusted settings to allow the CB to update. Have you contacted Customer Service to see if they can help you resolve the issue?
I think those of that did the initial buy-in under the anticipated production of the Visual Table Top would at least like to know that there is a back burner.
There's been a lot of work done on the Game Table and the Visualizer, and while we focus on the Campaign Tools, we're putting those and any other unreleased tool ideas to the side. I didn't use the phrase "we're putting those on the back burner" but that seems to be an appopriate way to think about it. Once we're done with the Campaign Tools we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
It seems by their own admission that they were working solely on the CB previously. They now announce these campaign tools, and ignore the VTT. If their attention was hard pressed with CB (to the exclusion of all other projects if I read correctly), now that they are doing campaign tool and still updating CB will there actually be ANY work done on the VTT at all?
We're not currently doing any work on any unreleased tools except for the Campaign Tools. This means that currently no work is being done directly on the Game Table or the Visualizer.
...and if Ricky Ricardo was in my gaming group he would certainly tell Wizards, "You got some 'splainin' to do." As a customer I know I am waiting for the explanation and won't be returning to the store until I am satisfied.
Through various forms of feedback, including the survey that we put up here and other sites, it was determined that people wanted something like these Campaign Tools, and that most of these people wanted them before tools like the Game Table or the Visualizer. We listened. We're focusing our efforts on the tools that our community of players wanted the most. I can't really offer more of an explanation than that.
Thanks for the quick reply and for the clarification. I'm very happy to hear that the CB will continue to be given the attention it deserves and apologize if I misinterpreted your post.
As for my individual circumstance, I have tried to contact CS but have not had any success. I posted another message yesterday in the appropriate forum and I'm hoping for a response soon.
I never understood WOTC spending money on a character visualizer. It adds very little to the game in any area. It'd be one thing if I could design my own miniature, but a picture of my character adds very little to the game of D&D I play. My character is in my head. If I need a picture to fill in the little box on a character sheet, I'll find one on the internet. I don't need a WoW / EQ2 style character creator - I already have those.
The same thing goes for the game table. I can see a much greater use for this tool but, if my D&D friends are far away, I'm a lot more likely to just play WoW or Left 4 Dead with them. There are a lot of good electronic co-op games out there that will probably run circles around what WOTC could produce in the electronic game market.
If they really wanted to, WOTC should license D&D 4e out to a game publisher to make a DM-friendly Neverwinter Nights style game where a DM can control monsters and build stories around a group's adventures.
In my opinion, Wizards should focus their time, attention, and money on their core interest - pen and paper role playing games. I want to see further improvements to the character builder (custom and streamlined character sheets are my big request), I want to see continuing quality products like Open Grave, Draconomicon, and Dungeon Delve; I want to see better miniatures.
Eventually, I'd like to see the VTT, but mostly as a way to hop into a game on a whim if I get bored one night... Not necessarily to start a campaign.
I think WotC has made the right decision in choosing the next application and by asking feedback from the community, I think it shows they DO care about what we have to say and feel.
Thanks for the update and thanks for the hard work. If this tool is released before my next subscription period (December 09), I'll re-up.
There's been a lot of work done on the Game Table and the Visualizer, and while we focus on the Campaign Tools, we're putting those and any other unreleased tool ideas to the side. I didn't use the phrase "we're putting those on the back burner" but that seems to be an appopriate way to think about it. Once we're done with the Campaign Tools we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
But as per the pep-talk/demonstration/presentation that announced 4th edition the marriage with DDI (including the Virtual Tabletop) was one of the biggest oohs and ahhs. It got me to lead the pack in my gaming cliques in the switch to 4th edition. To all those fans that did join the community based on that presentation and products that were being developed, I think a new presentation with these new parameters is in order. If you all only give a fraction of the energy and production effort that went into that first sales pitch I am sure this matter would be completely cleared up.
We're not currently doing any work on any unreleased tools except for the Campaign Tools. This means that currently no work is being done directly on the Game Table or the Visualizer.
You caught many fish with that initial sales pitch. You are now changing lures and bait and still expect us to bite. Some fish may continue to bite. Others that were attracted to the old bait my stop feeding.
Through various forms of feedback, including the survey that we put up here and other sites, it was determined that people wanted something like these Campaign Tools, and that most of these people wanted them before tools like the Game Table or the Visualizer. We listened. We're focusing our efforts on the tools that our community of players wanted the most. I can't really offer more of an explanation than that.
But a more detailed should be offered. If only 5% of the energy and production effort that went into creating that initial sales pitch were to be spent communicating DDI's current major project and reaffirm those that bought into 4th edition for the VTT that it is real and on the way I think you could serve both audiences.
Personally, I think addressing the poll results to set your agenda unwise. Those that want other products that were not on your agenda would not be expecting them and so you cause no friction by making those products later. Those that have been biding their time for VTT should have been served before them.
To make matters worse, it seems that VTT is not only having other projects cut in line ahead of it, but there are no assurances that line jumping will not happen again.
Things are looking bad for VTT.
If things continue on a dismal course, I will be getting rather cynical and might speculate as to why this occurring. As for now, I am just happy that someone that is closer the situation at least understands why there is concern. I can only hope it travels further up the chain and VTTs future can be mapped more clearly ASAP.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20080917a
It was stated that after the character maker was done, they would work on the viewer. Now all of a sudden they drop that and work on a new tool when the three other main tools they promised are not ready. How do we know WOTC won't drop the campaign manager when a new survey tells them the public wants something else?
as can be seen in [thread=1176435]this thread[/thread], opinions on what should or should not be included varies greatly. getting high hopes up from everyone, only to disappoint like 2/3rds, will do you nothing good.
so get those previews, feature lists, and what SpawnOfMorgoth called a sales pitch back up again.
give me a proper presentation and later on a good dm-tool, and i'll for sure subscribe longer than the time it takes me to get divine power in the cb.
This proves the WOTC are flat out liars. in this DI article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20080917a
It was stated that after the character maker was done, they would work on the viewer. Now all of a sudden they drop that and work on a new tool when the three other main tools they promised are not ready. How do we know WOTC won't drop the campaign manager when a new survey tells them the public wants something else?
I have to say that I am absolutely shocked that, over the course of 7 months, a business plan can change.
Shocked I tell you!!
I have to say that I am absolutely shocked that, over the course of 7 months, a business plan can change.
Shocked I tell you!!
and i am shocked to see, that after our long discussion in the vcl-forum, you still come up with such posts
This proves the WOTC are flat out liars. in this DI article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20080917a
It was stated that after the character maker was done, they would work on the viewer. Now all of a sudden they drop that and work on a new tool when the three other main tools they promised are not ready. How do we know WOTC won't drop the campaign manager when a new survey tells them the public wants something else?
Why don't you sell your books and quit the game if WotC is so evil? Situations changed, they have admitted past mistakes, they have told us before that after tackling the CB they would weight their options, they have made a survey, released the results of said survey and they will act upon them.
And as a DM, I much prefer DM tools to PC tools, so may PC's burn in hell, bwahahahahahaha.
Also, thanks Wotc for releasing this tidbit of news, I for one am hoping these campaign tools turn out as well as your previous 2 tools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_e5wAUwdmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-9vMYGu0Q&feature=related
I remember how pumped up I got thinking about playing online with my friends. We are all busy irl with family and professional responsibilities and the VTT was going to make getting together for a game much easier.
Then, the core books come out and if you don't remember, the ad's in the back say the following:
"Combat Improves When You Add A Mouse" Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider. With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere-wherever they live, wherever you go.
Of course we all remember that DDI was not available upon the release of the books, but they did have lots of advertisements for it. They finally released DDI which was composed of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, the compendium, and some bonus tools.
At that point they had the words COMING SOON! written above the CB, DB, CV, and VTT. WotC came out and said, "hey everyone, we know we don't have a lot of the stuff we promised, but if you sign up now we will lock in your billing price for the remainder of your subscription, even when all the other tools come out."
A lot of people are probably in the same boat as me and thought: "You know, I really am not interested in the E-Zines and I really want DDI mainly for the VTT, but hey, it says coming soon and surely the CB,VTT,CV,DB will be out before too long, it says so right on the advertisement. I might as well buy it now."
One could argue that it was deceptive business practice. They advertised advertised advertised, got people to subscribe, then took all of it down from the site and are now saying "we have decided to work on other projects at this time."
Most of us who are upset have very valid reasons. I have no major complaints about the CB or 4th edition in general. However, I have invested thousands of dollars in D&D over the years and I feel tricked into purchasing 4th edition and subscribing to DDI.
My gaming friends are spread all over the country and we are all busy irl. The VTT was the reason we all converted to 4th edition. I know there are alternate online table-tops out there, and we will gladly use them. But we all spent money to get a product that was advertised that never came into fruition.
I appreciate the head's up from WotC that the VTT has been canned, but we could have used that information a few months ago. An apology would be nice.
Ron R. Odonus
It's a progression, they will release things in good time. Tools and everything. They will fix things, and work on things, and update things as the game progresses. Be patient.
This proves the WOTC are flat out liars. in this DI article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20080917a
It was stated that after the character maker was done, they would work on the viewer. Now all of a sudden they drop that and work on a new tool when the three other main tools they promised are not ready. How do we know WOTC won't drop the campaign manager when a new survey tells them the public wants something else?
brotherjgizmo, thanks for the link in your post that helps give credence to the implied order of development CB then CV then VTT. We now know that we weren't just imagining things.
I have to say that I am absolutely shocked that, over the course of 7 months, a business plan can change.
Shocked I tell you!!
Your inability to acknowledge another's salient point (even if you think he should be flagged for excessive celebration after finding that nugget) makes me think you might need to put the Kool-Aid down.
I, like many, are sad that the VTT is not currently being worked on. I've mentioned before how that was my sole reason for buying all my 4E books (and I refuse to use other VTTs) I can't help but feel screwed over. By the situation, not by individuals. I might dislike WOTC as a company, however, I really do like the individuals that work there. ;)
Keep up the good work. If your campaign tools are as high quality as the CB I hope you'll draw in more subscribers and then revisit the other tools sometime in the future.
Thanks!
I noticed that mapping is listed as one of the features for the Campign Tools, does this mean that it(assuming it is a single program) will absorb the previously planned tool for map making(I forgot what the official planned name was).
If it DOES subsume the Dungeon Mapper, that would quiet my griping down a lot. Out of the originally promised tools, the Dungeon Mapper is the one that I was most looking forward to just because it is the most useful to me. So if these "campaign tools" do have that functionality, then I don't mind them being the next thing worked on.
Because a backburner does not a cancellation make.
Yea, and Duke Nukem hasn't been cancelled yet either.
:P
For crying out loud, guys. You wanted word from WotC on what they were working on. They told you, and you guys are still being brats to them? And you wonder why Wizards is so reluctant to share plans with its fanbase. Stop being awful.
To WotC: thank you. Assuming they are of comparable quality to the Character Builder, these tools will see a lot of use.
You are being more bratty and awfull than anyone around by your constant berrating of people who may not be happy with the way things are going.
If you can't handle handle, don't read forums. Plain and simple.
I am glad that you are following WotC in whatever decisions they make, at some point, they will run out of you guys.
You are being more bratty and awfull than anyone around by your constant berrating of people who may not be happy with the way things are going.
If you can't handle handle, don't read forums. Plain and simple.
I am glad that you are following WotC in whatever decisions they make, at some point, they will run out of you guys.
Actually that's unlikely seeing as they are working on the things the MAJORITY of people asked wanted.
Not to mention that the WotC community is but a small percentage of WotC entire Customer Base.
This is seriously cool. We know that they are not all asleep, someone out there is communicating to the world at large. This is a huge step forward, thank you Trevor. You might want to keep up the communication. The more you communicate, the better for the cooler heads in the frothing mob out here. Thanks.
Now, as for what they are doing next, working on things for the DM, whoa, amazingly cool. I know all you CB fanboys are screaming bloody murder because you dont have visulaizer yet. Can you picture your guy in your head? Yes, do so, shut up. If not, I dont see your intrest in this hobby. *shrug*
For those of you who are screaming for VTT, don't you need DM tools to apply your game into cyberspace?!? Now, I admit I am not a techy. But I want to know that if we are playing VTT, that I can input my DM stuff into the game as cool as all you players can plug in your nifty CB characters.
It only makes sense to have DM tools first. It is the very foundation of D&D; the DM has to have an adventure or it really doesn't matter how cool your characters are, because there is nothing cool for them to do.
In fact, my biggest complaint with D&DI so far is that there is nothing for the DM. No dungeon builder, no encounter builder, no combat manager, et all. But now somethign for the DM is coming. I see this as a good thing. Even if it is out of order in my universe. I never understood the CB out first. But it is here, and holy avengers batman is it cool. So now lets get on with the DM stuff.
Also, the community polling, great idea. It proves wizards are listening, actively seeking input. After they get us some equal to CB awsomeness DM stuff I say put out further polls and let the consumer base have a say into the next developement phase.
My two cents....
Thanks Trevor, keep the info flowing to the rabbling masses. ;)
let the rabble rousing continue...
~Swash~
brotherjgizmo, thanks for the link in your post that helps give credence to the implied order of development CB then CV then VTT. We now know that we weren't just imagining things.
And, as has been pointed out many times, WotC is a business. The order of things that they predicted back in September was a plan. Plans change.
It is not the consumer's fault that we are upset about DDI. I've said this before, and I will say it again(in fact, I reposted this post before), the consumers did not advertise these programs and services, WotC did. WotC advertised it as a major selling point of the system. For many of us, that selling point is what caused us to purchase the game. If many of you don't remember, WotC offerred the following glimpse at 4th edition prior to the books being released, pay attention to the last two clips:
Yeah your right, its DDI Dungeons, not Dungeons and Dragons the the pen and paper rpg. Its absolugetly within the realm that someone bought tabletop RPG books JUST for DDI, when they could have subscribed without paying for them...Very Believable.
I remember how pumped up I got thinking about playing online with my friends. We are all busy irl with family and professional responsibilities and the VTT was going to make getting together for a game much easier.
google: Maptool
google: openrpg
google: webrpg (which has been around forever)
google: gametable.
Those four are off the top my head, and all but 1 is free (webRPG has a minor cost).
I appreciate the head's up from WotC that the VTT has been canned, but we could have used that information a few months ago. An apology would be nice.
Err:
Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
Thats not 'we are not doing the game table anymore.'
Its 'we are not doing the game table right now.'
Sometimes we dont' get what we want Right now. but then they had a survey, and its results are
Tool to create and manage campaign info: 83% of subscribers
Tool to customize and print monsters: 82% of subscribers
Tool to customize and print pre-made adventures: 77% of subscribers
Tool to create character portraits: 69% of subscribers
Tool to play tabletop D&D over the Internet: 67% of subscribers
So thats what, 16% for the main feature of a campaign tools more than DDI online, and since customize/print monsters/adventures would be part of that, it makes perfect logical sense to focus on the campaign tools right now.
Actually that's unlikely seeing as they are working on the things the MAJORITY of people asked wanted.
Not to mention that the WotC community is but a small percentage of WotC entire Customer Base.
Err no. 4000 people took the survey, of those at MOST 3320 of those people wanted the campaign tools most. The actual number is less than that since the percentages of non-subscribers voting for that tool was lower and the 4000 is the total responses subscriber and non-subscriber. But wait, there's more: 4000 is the number of people that responded it is NOT the number of votes that were counted. Some respondents voices were not counted based on heuristics WotC decided to apply.
It's a self selected survey. It only represents those who decided to respond to the poll and not the fan-base as a whole.
The fact that WotC is making direction changes based on it is pretty sad, maybe not "stop selling pdfs" sad, but sad nonetheless.
I don't know whose making the decisions over there but they need to take a long hard look at the perception you're creating in the marketplace.
Though, I'll be fair, you have no choice. Internally I'm willing to bet it's common knowledge that the virtual table won't be out anytime soon, some of you may even be willing to admit it won't be out at all. It is officially vaporware at this point.
It's also probably pretty well known that you need to raise the price of DDI, but to do that you need justification.. justification in the form of getting more tools out there, even if they're not what you originally promised.
Guaranteed, shortly after the next tool comes out, whatever it winds up being, the price increase will be announced. Bookmark it.
Guaranteed, shortly after the next tool comes out, whatever it winds up being, the price increase will be announced. Bookmark it.
Wow, really stepped out there on a limb with that one, Kreskin.
Err no. 4000 people took the survey, of those at MOST 3320 of those people wanted the campaign tools most. The actual number is less than that since the percentages of non-subscribers voting for that tool was lower and the 4000 is the total responses subscriber and non-subscriber. But wait, there's more: 4000 is the number of people that responded it is NOT the number of votes that were counted. Some respondents voices were not counted based on heuristics WotC decided to apply.
How exactly do you know all this?
It's a self selected survey. It only represents those who decided to respond to the poll and not the fan-base as a whole.
The fact that WotC is making direction changes based on it is pretty sad, maybe not "stop selling pdfs" sad, but sad nonetheless.
I don't know whose making the decisions over there but they need to take a long hard look at the perception you're creating in the marketplace.
Considering that I doubt even half the entire fan base really cares what this community thinks or is interested in the internal politics of WotC I think it's safe to say that WotC is doing quite fine in the market place.
People are still buying D&D products and they are still playing D&D. I've played D&D since 3ed was released and in all the groups I have been with I was either the only one or one of two people that cared about what this community thinks and/or how it affects what decisions the company makes.
Most are happy buying the books and playing the game as written in them.
Though, I'll be fair, you have no choice. Internally I'm willing to bet it's common knowledge that the virtual table won't be out anytime soon, some of you may even be willing to admit it won't be out at all. It is officially vaporware at this point.
I'm willing to bet the opposite. Just because they re-prioritized does not mean the projects are cancelled.
It's also probably pretty well known that you need to raise the price of DDI, but to do that you need justification.. justification in the form of getting more tools out there, even if they're not what you originally promised.
Guaranteed, shortly after the next tool comes out, whatever it winds up being, the price increase will be announced. Bookmark it.
It's pretty well known? really? as far as I know it's a silly rumour. Not saying it wont happen, but all products go up in price when there is a recession in progress. Your Milk goes up in price... do you get more milk for it? no. Are you gonna complain to your dairy company? Highly unlikely.
This proves the WOTC are flat out liars. in this DI article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20080917a
It was stated that after the character maker was done, they would work on the viewer. Now all of a sudden they drop that and work on a new tool when the three other main tools they promised are not ready. How do we know WOTC won't drop the campaign manager when a new survey tells them the public wants something else?
And this one stated that they were going to evaluate where they were going to work on next:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20090211
Now I wonder what could have happened in the five months after the one you linked to posted. People stating that they would rather have the Dungeon Builder or the Game Table instead of a Visualizer. Requests for updates to the bonus tools started to show up. One of which (the Monster Builder) was released AFTER the article you linked. Threads requesting DM tools also showed up.
So instead of listening to feedback that they were receiving in the forums, at cons, and other methods, you would have preferred them to work on a tool that only 67% of subscribers polled and 46% of non-subscribers wanted because five months ago they released one sentence, when there are other things people wanted more.
Time passes, things happen, stuff changes.
I tried to make it clear that as far as unreleased tools are concerned, we're focused on the Campaign Tools and not on anything else. We will constantly be working to update the Character Builder - which includes providing new content for it as that content becomes available, and fixing the bugs we come across.
As far as experiencing problems with updating, I have heard of some issues, but at this point many of the people I've seen have either had their bug fixed or adjusted settings to allow the CB to update. Have you contacted Customer Service to see if they can help you resolve the issue?
Trevor
Thank you for telling us what is happening.
But Stop with the crap, If the VTT is not going to be done Say So.
Stop teasing, stop acting like we should be happy about all your lies.
To the folks who are pleased Good for you, but many are still waiting on what was promised a year ago.
WOTC if you are not going to make it (VTT) then own up and say so, from statements you have not worked on it in a year or so, (more like other than a few mock ups 3 years).
Why is it so hard to tell the truth?
Lee
WotC will know, with the GT, what is required due to what people are creating, as opposed to finding out afterwards what people are creating with the campaign manager. The Campaign Manager can thus become, in my mind, the central tool from which the other tools are launched for the DM. Dungeon Builder, Game Table, a tool to manage combat.
MudBunny,
I like you, I really do, you do a great job for a company that does not deserve it.
WOTC can say what they will, but the truth is they promised the VTT
and they keep making excuses.
I do not think I am the only one who feels that the VTT is a Prize that WoTC never intends to give us.
Good luck to you, but WotC has burned alot of bridges, and seems to not care about it.
If another company drooped a VTT out I am sure WotC would attack with all their lawyers.
Lee
MudBunny,
I like you, I really do, you do a great job for a company that does not deserve it.
WOTC can say what they will, but the truth is they promised the VTT
and they keep making excuses.
I do not think I am the only one who feels that the VTT is a Prize that WoTC never intends to give us.
Good luck to you, but WotC has burned alot of bridges, and seems to not care about it.
If another company drooped a VTT out I am sure WotC would attack with all their lawyers.
Lee
A few company's already have and not gotten sued.. there's half-a-dozen programs out there, either made by an individual, an online community, or a small business that try and do what's planned for VTT(Except for multiple different kinds of games), some free, others for some cash, some fairly stable, others quite buggy, some cross-platform, others windows only... None have gotten sued so far(To the best of my knowledge)
This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
As far as more details about the Campaign Tools, I don't have any more information for you now, but we should have some details for you soon.
First of all, I want to make a public apology for any statements that I may have made in the past that questioned the ability of the developers working on the DDI internally with WotC. Having had the chance to speak with someone working on the DDI team about the situation regarding the it, Gleemax, and just the general internal situation there, I retract my criticism of the developers entirely. Management on the other hand, I have to look upon even more poorly, bordering on open, gaping astonishment.
I really, truly feel sorry for the lack of resources the developers and testers are being provided, and in light of that, it's not surprising given how behind schedule the major DDI tools currently are (and in all fairness, the original outsourcing team contracted to produce Gleemax and the original DDI tools botched things on an epic scale, to say nothing of the expenditure involved).
I would like to see an Adventure Builder.
Where you create a complete adventure including a map and encounters and rooms with monsters and other terrain in them.
A backstory and setup would be included as well as a conclusion.
The full stats in an easy to use form for all the monsters you encounter would be easy to access with a single click.
The map could be scanned in or built from scratch using all kinds of different shapes and sizes and colors.
That is what my vision is for the next tool.
To be clear I was just describing the dungeon builder as it stands now, but with a tab for intro and a tab for conclusion.
Mike.
I want this product.
I'm pretty sure lots of other people have expressed a desire for this product.
Why is this, by the sounds of it, nearly complete product not being put into at least an alpha test state and being released as such to subscribers to start testing?
I'd be quite happy to do that.
(Why yes I do notice the date of 14-Jan-09 on the first post... 3 months ago...)
I want this product.
I'm pretty sure lots of other people have expressed a desire for this product.
Why is this, by the sounds of it, nearly complete product not being put into at least an alpha test state and being released as such to subscribers to start testing?
I'd be quite happy to do that.
(Why yes I do notice the date of 14-Jan-09 on the first post... 3 months ago...)
Even if we assume the tool is/was feature complete, that doesn't mean it was bug free, or that it had a user-friendly UI (much less a UI that would match/integrate with the look of the CB - I assume they're going to go for a unified look).
The CB UI polished up greatly between the beta and the full release, but that took 2? 2.5? months to accomplish (while other bugfixes and the like were being done as well).
I want this product.
I'm pretty sure lots of other people have expressed a desire for this product.
Why is this, by the sounds of it, nearly complete product not being put into at least an alpha test state and being released as such to subscribers to start testing?
I'd be quite happy to do that.
(Why yes I do notice the date of 14-Jan-09 on the first post... 3 months ago...)
But have you ever considered, that there might not be ENOUGH people that want this feature? I would like a VTT. HOWEVER, I'm still playing DnD every other week, for hours and having just as much fun.
I can live and play without a VTT, but all the other tools will make playing so much easier.
I would LOVE a Dungeon Builder before a VTT. I use the encounter builder and monster creator all the time. They are great. The Character Builder is awesome as well.
The idea of having a VTT sounds like fun. I like how visual it would be, how lighting could be done, and 3D items and such. But I can also see the downside of it.
There is no need for a VTT for my regular play group. But I do have some friends across the country that have said they would want to play in a campaign with such a thing. But if they don't have time to play paper DnD, then when are they going to have time to play VTT DnD?
Maybe it was costing to much to develope, where they wouldn't see a return on profits in a reasonable amount of time. That's very reasonable. If you want WoTC to continue to make product, and making a VTT would seriously hurt them, would you still want it?
I'm not saying this is the truth. But these types of software costs millions to develope. If they are already a way past a year of releasing it, then surely they are over budget.
So they had to change plans. Also, I don't expect a company to give me a full run down of what is going on internally. Everyone should learn to except this. It's just not good business to be to open about everything.
Thing is you cannot have a VTT without a means to make adventures for use on it, which is the tool mdonias describes. A tool that also fits into two of the top 3 categories readily enough:
# Tool to customize and print monsters: 82% of subscribers
# Tool to customize and print pre-made adventures: 77% of subscribers
So I'm saying I want something that they say is in X level of completeness, that significantly matches two of the criteria they are using to justify embarking on yet another (as of yet unstarted) Tool.
I just hope the designers are able to take the Adventure Tool described and add that missing part of "Tool to create and manage campaign info" whatever that means.
And WolfStar, I actually prefered the beta interface for the CB over the current one. I still misclick things due to the changes. And I'm pretty sure that saying "alpha" means I'm well aware of the likelihood of bugs in such a release, and heck I even expect an incomplete interface.
And WolfStar, I actually prefered the beta interface for the CB over the current one. I still misclick things due to the changes. And I'm pretty sure that saying "alpha" means I'm well aware of the likelihood of bugs in such a release, and heck I even expect an incomplete interface.
Really? To each their own - the interfaces weren't a huge difference to me, but I recall thinking the current interface is simply "cleaner" (yup, totally subjective and nearly immeasurable term).
I'm with you, however in the respect (if I'm interpreting you correctly) that I wouldn't mind helping them alpha/beta test.
I can see it from WotC's side as well, however. I recall there being a (admittedly small) number of posts that were upset about bugs/crashes in the Beta CB. To the tune of "WotC can't program worth a damn - just look how crappy this software is!"
So while the majority of posters - especially the more mature among us - could probably handle Alpha and early Beta software, I wouldn't expect WotC to go for that plan, if only because of the negative image it seems to foster among the customer base.
Which is a shame, really.
I can see it from WotC's side as well, however. I recall there being a (admittedly small) number of posts that were upset about bugs/crashes in the Beta CB. To the tune of "WotC can't program worth a damn - just look how crappy this software is!"
Just see the fairly predictable posts (about once a week) that say that "I could program this in a weekend".
Just see the fairly predictable posts (about once a week) that say that "I could program this in a weekend".
And give up their lucrative food service management jobs? I think not!
Sorry, just had to go there, humorly. I love it when people think they can do something better, and yet, can't or don't have a job doing so.
I am one of those that got hooked on the VTT to buy into the subscription. And I am still looking forward to seeing it. And I do have to disagree with others that it is required to have a dungeon builder working before the VTT is usable. When they touted the VTT, one of the things that was said was that all the modules that were being published were going to be available for the VTT. There was even much debate about whether we would get a code if we bought the paper version so that we could use the digital version. Of course, none of that has happened.
I am currently DM'ing the Scales of War Adventure Path and my main complaint about it is the lack of maps that I do not have to draw. If I can use this Campaign Tool to do reproduce those maps, then that would definitely be more important to me than the VTT, however i still want my VTT. And from the descriptions that were given from Trevor, it sounds like this Campaing Manager/Tool will be the replacement for the Dungeon Builder, Encounter Builder, Monster Builder and and Adventure Builder all rolled into one. They may even use what they have already developed to give themselves a quicker start on the program.
I am also with WolfStar and would love to help WoTC out with Alpha and Beta testing. I do it at work and would love to help them out with this set of tools.
And give up their lucrative food service management jobs? I think not!
Sorry, just had to go there, humorly. I love it when people think they can do something better, and yet, can't or don't have a job doing so.
The problem is IT HAS BEEN DONE already. Look, building applications in .NET is not rocket science. I am not a programmer by trade, and I have done it.
I have many friends as software developers (I am a server/network guy). The fact is, ALL of them have said that they could do it by themselves, with proper resources, at home in (relatively) very little time (and some have done applications for our group). With a team of people, much less. What does this mean? Nothing really, except that you should not blanklet discount their words and experiences, as you have done.
I have seen a .NET application suite, that runs an entire Communication Company be complete and deployed in less time than it has taken for these applications. The difference? The company was fully behind the application suite and enabled the developers to get the job done.
This is not a dig at the developers. I fully believe that it is the management of the digital side that is at fault - and that management may be higher up than anyone that we, as a community would easily recognize.
I also fully believe that if the GSL allowed it, we would have saw a character generator by a 3rd party that is at least the same quality of the Wizards one at release, in 1 months time. We already had excel spreadsheets very early on.
The problem is IT HAS BEEN DONE already. Look, building applications in .NET is not rocket science. I am not a programmer by trade, and I have done it.
I have many friends as software developers (I am a server/network guy). The fact is, ALL of them have said that they could do it by themselves, with proper resources, at home in (relatively) very little time (and some have done applications for our group). With a team of people, much less. What does this mean? Nothing really, except that you should not blanklet discount their words and experiences, as you have done.
I have seen a .NET application suite, that runs an entire Communication Company be complete and deployed in less time than it has taken for these applications. The difference? The company was fully behind the application suite and enabled the developers to get the job done.
This is not a dig at the developers. I fully believe that it is the management of the digital side that is at fault - and that management may be higher up than anyone that we, as a community would easily recognize.
I also fully believe that if the GSL allowed it, we would have saw a character generator by a 3rd party that is at least the same quality of the Wizards one at release, in 1 months time. We already had excel spreadsheets very early on.
Your saying that a 3D, multi user virtual gaming table could be made in a weekend?
Not hardly. Some of those 3d models will take weeks and weeks to build, not to mention the time it takes to create the art for them.
I can blanket discount their words on how quickly something like this can take, since I've actually worked on video games. Sure this isn't some video game. It's actually much more complex then that.
So unless you are talking about some flat, token to represent palyers and monsters, and symbols to represent objects, I seriously doubt this could be made over the weekend.
So unless you are talking about some flat, token to represent palyers and monsters, and symbols to represent objects, I seriously doubt this could be made over the weekend.
Amen.
So unless you are talking about some flat, token to represent palyers and monsters, and symbols to represent objects, I seriously doubt this could be made over the weekend.
which is absolutely not what he said. he did not even start to talk about the game table.
and: there absolutely ARE people who could do the cb better, in less time. talking about a weekend, however, is ridiculous, and nothing any serious guy would talk about (if only due to data entry, this would take many man-months to accomplish however fast the guy could really do such a program)
if i had to estimate* the current cb, i'd put it at 12 man-months as web-application, around double that for a desktop version with printing (additional time depending on graphical gimmicks wanted), none extra for multi-platform (seriously, there's no magic to that), and about 2-4 months for data entry for each phb.
*this estimation is for a one-person team. according to brookes' law, additional team members will already slow the plan down further. looking at the CB credits, it seems they had to many devs at certain times.
Your saying that a 3D, multi user virtual gaming table could be made in a weekend?
Not hardly. Some of those 3d models will take weeks and weeks to build, not to mention the time it takes to create the art for them.
I can blanket discount their words on how quickly something like this can take, since I've actually worked on video games. Sure this isn't some video game. It's actually much more complex then that.
So unless you are talking about some flat, token to represent palyers and monsters, and symbols to represent objects, I seriously doubt this could be made over the weekend.
Can you point me where I said that please? I think you misread what I said - please go read it again.
I did not give a timetable at all, much less a weekend. It is amazing what 1 person can accomplish, given the right focus and resources. Take a look at what they have done with the complete SRD and what products have the entire resource built into it.
I believe that there was a change in how the CB was worked on at some point. I think that it was originally being done externally, and then got brought in-house. That would add a significant amount of time to the project. In addition, there was the loss of some of the programming/techy people in the september round of lay-offs, so the learning/assuming of additional roles/responsabilities would also add some significant slowdown to the programming process.
[/third-hand info]
[third-hand info]
I believe that there was a change in how the CB was worked on at some point. I think that it was originally being done externally, and then got brought in-house. That would add a significant amount of time to the project. In addition, there was the loss of some of the programming/techy people in the september round of lay-offs, so the learning/assuming of additional roles/responsabilities would also add some significant slowdown to the programming process.
[/third-hand info]
Thanks for the information. Like I said, the company has to give the developers the resources and be behind the products 100%. If not, then I guess you know where i am going....
usually, stuff like this is used for management to hide behind. because the only one ever to blame if projects go bad, are very bad project managers. (and this problem is usually not on the contractor side.)
seeing that ddi seems to have some troubles still, makes me believe whoever is responsible for this is still around. can't know however who's responsible, as official titles seem to change around very fast at wotc these days.
[indent]Quality
Speed
Cost
[/indent]
WotC is, IMO, obviously focussing on Quality and Cost, hence the "it will be ready when it is ready" point of view.
high quality incurs higher costs, ALWAYS. focussing on quality and costs is like focussing on buying the blue and the red car. (unless its purple or has some stripes, pretty much impossible)
well, this leaves just the question how much money has actually been sunk with the game table. we'll likely never be able to tell, but i believe it has been not as much as many people are thinking it is.
If you lump the VTT, visualizer, and dungeon builder together with the costs that were put into Gleemax (since development of all of them started under an outsourced design studio) the lump sum is probably higher than you're thinking. Staggeringly so. The number mentioned to me by someone involved on the project during its subsequent in-house development isn't even in the ballpark of what I had assumed. It's high.
How much you'd attribute to Gleemax itself versus the 3 yet-unreleased applications, that's a good question. But the artwork likely wasn't cheap, nor all the outsourcing that originally went on.
[third-hand info]
I believe that there was a change in how the CB was worked on at some point. I think that it was originally being done externally, and then got brought in-house. That would add a significant amount of time to the project. In addition, there was the loss of some of the programming/techy people in the september round of lay-offs, so the learning/assuming of additional roles/responsabilities would also add some significant slowdown to the programming process.
[/third-hand info]
[second-hand info]From what I've heard, the original material that was outsourced was sub-par, and a lot of material had to be started over from scratch. I wouldn't blame the in-house people for having to deal with someone else's hand-me-down mess. And they've lost people since the last, publicly announced round of layoffs, which is probably not helping progress on new material.[/second-hand info]
If you lump the VTT, visualizer, and dungeon builder together with the costs that were put into Gleemax (since development of all of them started under an outsourced design studio) the lump sum is probably higher than you're thinking. Staggeringly so. The number mentioned to me by someone involved on the project during its subsequent in-house development isn't even in the ballpark of what I had assumed. It's high.
How much you'd attribute to Gleemax itself versus the 3 yet-unreleased applications, that's a good question. But the artwork likely wasn't cheap, nor all the outsourcing that originally went on.
Unfortunately, it looks to me that the one of 2 things happened with the outsourcing:
(1) They went with the cheapest quote - and it was alot cheaper than other people - never a good thing as it always costs more and is of less quality.
(2) They somehow got duped into thinking the contract company was good.
Off-topic question -- what was Gleemax originally supposed to be? I've only been paying attention to WotC stuff since January of this year.
Gleemax was suppose to be a sort of Myspace for gamers. A place for the community to share ideas, custom game elements, or simply blog. I think there was more stuff that was going to be added, but it wasn't that great at launch, and didn't get much better.
This is what i'm talking about. Thats not what was said. The game table hasn't been cancelled, and although its been postponed, it has not been indefinitly.
I don't see the problem with calling it "indefinitely postponed." Development has been postponed, and WotC can't define when development will resume (unless you take a liberal reading of "define" to mean, "sometime later") - thus, "indefinitely postponed" is a completely accurate way to describe it.
I understand the problem with saying "it's canceled" absent a formal announcement. And if, later on, WotC says "the GameTable will resume development in October 2009," then it's no longer indefinite. But right now? It has been indefinitely postponed; resumption of development is TBA.
I don't see the problem with calling it "indefinitely postponed." Development has been postponed, and WotC can't define when development will resume (unless you take a liberal reading of "define" to mean, "sometime later") - thus, "indefinitely postponed" is a completely accurate way to describe it.
I understand the problem with saying "it's canceled" absent a formal announcement. And if, later on, WotC says "the GameTable will resume development in October 2009," then it's no longer indefinite. But right now? It has been indefinitely postponed; resumption of development is TBA.
Well they have yet to say that the free e-book with hard copy purchase that was promoted was cancelled either. We have to use our own observation to determine that it ain't happening. Even the full price PDFs have been removed from the market place. Not only is the free book non-existent, the direction of computer version books seems to be going backwards.
Logically you can conclude the promise of a free e-version of your purchased book has been cancelled, but it would be nice if they made a statement one way or the other.
Instead, the excercise of deciding what is meant by the manufacturer's silence on this matter is an excercise left to the consumer.
Well they have yet to say that the free e-book with hard copy purchase that was promoted was cancelled either. We have to use our own observation to determine that it ain't happening. Even the full price PDFs have been removed from the market place. Not only is the free book non-existent, the direction of computer version books seems to be going backwards.
Logically you can conclude the promise of a free e-version of your purchased book has been cancelled, but it would be nice if they made a statement one way or the other.
Instead, the excercise of deciding what is meant by the manufacturer's silence on this matter is an excercise left to the consumer.
I just meant that I can understand objecting to the use of the word "canceled" based on what WotC_Trevor said in the update post; objecting to calling it "indefinitely postponed" is what I didn't understand.
I thought "indefinitely postponed" was a perfectly reasonable and fair way to put it.
Well they have yet to say that the free e-book with hard copy purchase that was promoted was cancelled either. We have to use our own observation to determine that it ain't happening. Even the full price PDFs have been removed from the market place. Not only is the free book non-existent, the direction of computer version books seems to be going backwards.
Logically you can conclude the promise of a free e-version of your purchased book has been cancelled, but it would be nice if they made a statement one way or the other.
Instead, the excercise of deciding what is meant by the manufacturer's silence on this matter is an excercise left to the consumer.
The cancellation of that idea was announced well before 4E was even released.
However they decided putting codes in books wouldn't work they wanted. Instead of putting a code in the book and charging a nominal fee they decided to drop the digital copy of the book and open all the content from every book and digital mag released in the compendium and Character Builder.
First part of this Video from D&D XP.
@tiny: well, the problem is, WOTC was talking all about those tools, and not the people who looked at the ads.
this is due to the fact that just talking about tools everyone knows about and many people have seen in good incarnations already, was bound to get people watching those shows only mildly interested.
so they put something bigger in front, the gametable. always the game table was their prime product. to see them drop it from the surface, if not soon altogether, is a very big admission of defeat.
---
Oh, and WOTC must have always been aware they could not reach all their deadlines. Especially with 4 software tools in the suite where they started barely a year before the release date. everyone knows software takes a long time - everyone. you don't have to be a programmer to realise that.
I'm not sure it's really an ad if it's something they are putting in their own books. It's self advertising for sure, like when a channel airs commercials for it's own shows.
People knew about the VTT before the books came out, and bought the books with the preknowledge of it. There are probably few people, but some, that didn't and bought the book, saw the add and liked the idea.
I think that's a safe bet to say, since some people are saying they bought the books with the VTT in mind. I've not seen someone say they learned about the VTT after they bought the book. The closest is that they had to look a bit for more information here once they signed up.
But in the end, someone upset will point to anything to prove their point. If not the ads, then the the videos from GenCon. If not that, then posts on here.
Again, all of it was their projected plan. Saddly it didn't work out.
Right now, it's a persons choice on how to move forward. Is that person going to sit there, going over their view of things? Are they going to hate WoTC forever? Are they going to be dissappointed, but realize things change? Are they going to blindly think WoTC can do no wrong?
Certainly sitting there going over the past doesn't get you anything.
Hating WoTC isn't going to get you anything. If you are truly insulted and hurt and betrayed, no one is going to fault you for leaving and never buying a WoTC product again. It's your choice.
Whatever you decide, it's basically your choice at this point. There really isn't enough outrage over the VTT, just the same people posting, to get it taken off the backburner.
Hating WoTC isn't going to get you anything. If you are truly insulted and hurt and betrayed, no one is going to fault you for leaving and never buying a WoTC product again. It's your choice.
Whatever you decide, it's basically your choice at this point. There really isn't enough outrage over the VTT, just the same people posting, to get it taken off the backburner.
QFT
I'm not sure it's really an ad if it's something they are putting in their own books. It's self advertising for sure, like when a channel airs commercials for it's own shows.
[...]
Hating WoTC isn't going to get you anything. If you are truly insulted and hurt and betrayed, no one is going to fault you for leaving and never buying a WoTC product again. It's your choice.
Whatever you decide, it's basically your choice at this point. There really isn't enough outrage over the VTT, just the same people posting, to get it taken off the backburner.
i did not talk about their little images in the back of the books.
i was speaking about big fancy presentations at various events, videos posted over at youtube with interviews etc. - THIS advertisment was based almost entirely on the gametable, and how using it would bring the game to the next level. obviously, their focus now is not on gaining the next level anytime soon. (maybe they had the upgrade from lvl 4e to 5e in mind?
)---
as for hating wotc: i do not hate wotc. and i never said as much. and i do not even care about the vtt. i just dislike corporate dishonesty, as it accomplishes NOTHING. there's no actual reason why they could not tell people on the outside their concrete plans. they will not gain or lose customers over this more than by saying nothing. so what changes? the customers that stay will be more satisfied.
i did not talk about their little images in the back of the books.
i was speaking about big fancy presentations at various events, videos posted over at youtube with interviews etc. - THIS advertisment was based almost entirely on the gametable, and how using it would bring the game to the next level. obviously, their focus now is not on gaining the next level anytime soon. (maybe they had the upgrade from lvl 4e to 5e in mind?
---
as for hating wotc: i do not hate wotc. and i never said as much. and i do not even care about the vtt. i just dislike corporate dishonesty, as it accomplishes NOTHING. there's no actual reason why they could not tell people on the outside their concrete plans. they will not gain or lose customers over this more than by saying nothing. so what changes? the customers that stay will be more satisfied.
I was very careful in my wording of many things. I spoke in general and about people, not YOU specifically.
How are they being dishonest? They laid their plans, they had a schedule, that talked about their plans, they changed no one for something they didn't have ready, and came and told us they had finally decided to put it on hold in favor of other things.
Concrete plans? There are no such things. Yes people have been asking for information about the VTT for some time. WoTC isn't going to make announcements about thier plans until they have actually decided.
It's not to hard, honestly to understand. Several years ago, WoTC decided to redesign DnD, and started work on 4th edition. Two years ago, they announced it at GenCon, a year later it came out. Along the way, they tried to get the CV and VTT up and running, and couldn't.
They changed their business model, some reasons we know, others they don't, and put those to tools on the backburner. And told us.
When they advertised, whether in their own books, in interviews, in podcasts, everything they were telling us, was true, at that time. That was the plan, that was what they were working on, that was the goal.
Then things changed. Clearly people got let go, high up people. Why? Who knows, it's not our business to be informed as to why the VP of digital gaming got let go. That probably came down from Hasbro, who seeing money being spent on an over budget project, told them find a way to fix it.
So if someone is working away at their job, telling you what is going on, what they are working on, how they invision it, and everything at that time is true, how is that corporate dishonesty?
And if somewhere along the lines, plans are changed, and your are told about it, how is that dishonest? Sorry that companies take a long time to finally communicate, but unless you have worked in such an evnironment, that's how it is. It takes time for companies to make million dollar decisions.
There was nothing really dishonest.
There was nothing really dishonest.
yes, and winnie pooh never stole any honey.
in order to believe all you stated, wotc would have to have the most incompetent managers to be ever seen.
i DO work in big projects, in an environment even worse than big companies... politics...
and trust me: you learn how to judge dishonesty either pretty quickly, or you don't stay there for long.
So if someone is working away at their job, telling you what is going on, what they are working on, how they invision it, and everything at that time is true, how is that corporate dishonesty?
And if somewhere along the lines, plans are changed, and your are told about it, how is that dishonest? Sorry that companies take a long time to finally communicate, but unless you have worked in such an evnironment, that's how it is. It takes time for companies to make million dollar decisions.
There was nothing really dishonest.
I'm not here to hate on Wizards, but the above quote has drawn me in. I don't speak of Wizards specifically, but in general marketing should be much more heavily regulated in my opinion. There is a moral (though not necessarily legal) obligation when a company actively markets something while selling a product.
With particular focus on this situation, one cannot refute that Wizards actively marketed the virtual game table heavily, if not the most heavily of all the software. At my local game store, which I don't visit as often as many others, it was quite apparent that while pushing 4ed rigorously, the virtual game table was a big part of that. Therefore, in my mind at least, there is a moral (if not legal) obligation to provide that product and provide it within a reasonable time from the release of 4ed. I think enough time has gone by that the "reasonable window" has passed. Then an announcement saying that it's suspended until further notice confirms a breach of the moral obligation that Wizards had when marketing those materials.
I'm not trying to validate anyone with harsh criticism for Wizards. I just believe that considering my own evaluation as mentioned above that there was dishonesty on the part of Wizards (or Hasbro whichever made the poor decisions) to actively market something and then later pull it off the table of active development.
Again speaking generally, and not specifically on this situation, having worked with a couple of different companies where software development is concerned (merely as a tester), everyone at the development company knows when something is going to be ready and when it won't. The marketing department, though, in most cases doesn't care and will hype (or even lie as I see it) anything to generate the sales figures that they need. I don't know if that is what happened specifically with Wizards here. I just know that it happens a great deal in general, and it is dishonest. It is the main reason that I believe marketing should be much more heavily scrutinized and regulated.
yes, and winnie pooh never stole any honey.
in order to believe all you stated, wotc would have to have the most incompetent managers to be ever seen.
i DO work in big projects, in an environment even worse than big companies... politics...
and trust me: you learn how to judge dishonesty either pretty quickly, or you don't stay there for long.
Change of plans does not equal incompetent.
Change of plans does not equal incompetent.
i'll correct that for you:
sudden change of plans due to not reaching the proposed goal, is either incompetent, or they are hiding something.
you can paraphrase it as often as you want. but someone must have known, and must have lied to someone - be it management that was lied to, or management/marketing that lied to us. it's still part of an dishonest company communication.
But come on, all the time they were hyping the VTT, they were honestly and factually working towards that end. It doesn't matter that Marketing forced them to put ads in the back of the book, or put out posters. Or that they did video blogs about what they were working on and had planned.
Because that's honestly what was going on, they were making a VTT.
More precise, they were working on DDi, which hasn't been cancled.
Sitting and saying that because they talked about the VTT, and then had to change business plans, and it caused to be pushed back as dishonest, sounds like just wanting to be true.
i'll correct that for you:
sudden change of plans due to not reaching the proposed goal, is either incompetent, or they are hiding something.
you can paraphrase it as often as you want. but someone must have known, and must have lied to someone - be it management that was lied to, or management/marketing that lied to us. it's still part of an dishonest company communication.
Looking for a reason that proves you are right about how WoTC are dishonest liars who hide sure sounds like Hate to me.
you can paraphrase it all you want.
They changed their business model, some reasons we know, others they don't, and put those to tools on the backburner. And told us.
So, was it dishonest when back in june of 08, with the full page ads in the back of the new core books, WOTC did not say ANYTHING about DDi anyplace for TWO MONTHS after 4th ed, was out? Lots of posts from people asking where these great tools are. WOTC let the people wonder, let the rumors fly. Nothing underhanded or dishonest by not letting the customers know whats going for two months after the product launch, is there?
So, was it dishonest when back in june of 08, with the full page ads in the back of the new core books, WOTC did not say ANYTHING about DDi anyplace for TWO MONTHS after 4th ed, was out? Lots of posts from people asking where these great tools are. WOTC let the people wonder, let the rumors fly. Nothing underhanded or dishonest by not letting the customers know whats going for two months after the product launch, is there?
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by simple incompetence.
They didn't do it on purpose to **** you off. They messed up. I'm no fan of the way these things got handled, and I don't actually think they're going to release anything else for DDI ever, but it's not personal. Just bidness.
I'll start with the bad:
-No Visualizer, DB, or VTT, for now anyways.
-No details on what WotC sees their Campaign Manager being.
Now the good:
-WotC listened to us, the community! GO WIZ! (applause)
-WotC is continuing with D&Di apps.
-WotC has NOT VAPORWARED the DB, VTT, or CV...yet...
!!MOST IMPORTANTLY!!
They communicated with us! Even though the news was not really what I wanted to hear, I am thrilled to be officially told something useful. I really appreciate that, thank you WotC!
On a suggestive note: I think it would be a good idea to make this type of communication a regularly scheduled thing. Say, a monthly report. I know there are lots of things that you aren't going to share regarding current projects until they are close to beta, but even the simplest report would be nice.
Example report for say...next month. IMHO:
We are still working on the campaign manager, and we are happy with the progress we have made there. In addition we have fixed blah & blah in the CB, and reworked the blah in the Compendium. Over the next month we are hoping to add blah function to the compendium, and to fix some of the CC problems we have been having during subscription purchases. In addition of course to all our work on the Campaign Manager.
Thanks, WotC
I know that doesn't say a whole lot, but it says enough. Most importantly it says that WotC WANTS to include the community as much as possible in the continued work on both D&D and D&Di. I loved the survey, I love the heads up you are giving us this time. This level of communication works much better than the silent treatment you went with for so long.
So, thanks again WotC.
Character visualizer is kinda meh for me, I would rather discuss my character's appearance in detail, it increases the roleplaying experience for me and makes my character more dynamic. It would have been neat to have though.
As to the Campaign Tools, I look forward to what you have in store for us, WotC. I really hope the programs are external like the CB rather than flash-based (or whatever the term is) like the monster builder.
So, was it dishonest when back in june of 08, with the full page ads in the back of the new core books, WOTC did not say ANYTHING about DDi anyplace for TWO MONTHS after 4th ed, was out? Lots of posts from people asking where these great tools are. WOTC let the people wonder, let the rumors fly. Nothing underhanded or dishonest by not letting the customers know whats going for two months after the product launch, is there?
No, it wasn't. Funny, I knew that DDi was launching with just Dragon and Dungeon magazines before the books came out, and that much of the digitals were behind schedule when the books released, and that they didn't have a date they could give.
Here's what you are not getting and why it is false marketing (in plain English, duping):
Look at the "Player's Handbook". A fake mock-up picture of the Character Visualizer, software that still is not available more than a year after. The tag line says that DDI will help enhance the game, give you the possibility to play online with friends anywhere.
...
That's an advertising preview. "Here, there's a great new product we've got coming 'real soon now'". But when push comes to shove, WotC drew no financial connection between what you were buying now and what you could buy real soon now.
They set a bold dream. You liked the bold dream and bought in, a little bit. Then they discovered that the dream wasn't going to happen as hoped and you were disappointed. Guess what? I bet they were disappointed too.
But the fact remains that you and WotC never entered into any form of contractual arrangement based on that preview. Not only did you not hand over any money, you didn't even promise to hand over money. The only promise or contract made - implied or otherwise - was that "real soon now" WotC would have this cool new thing that you could hand over money for if you wished.
Legally, no foul.
Ethically, they built up your expectations and then failed to meet them. Yup, that's disappointing, but it happens all the time, especially in advertising. It's only really foul play if they attempt to change your buying behaviour by making a promise that they have no intention of delivering on, or that exists only to harm a competitors product. All the evidence says that they wanted to deliver on it (wishful thinking on their part, maybe), and there was no competitors product to be harmed by the previews.
So while a lot of people are disappointed at the current turn of events, one would be hard-pushed to point out any actual wrongdoing on WotC's part (at least towards its customers). There's a heck of a lot of stuff they publicly declared they were working at that hasn't eventuated, but that's not at all the same thing as having contracted with customers to deliver it.
So, was it dishonest when back in june of 08, with the full page ads in the back of the new core books, WOTC did not say ANYTHING about DDi anyplace for TWO MONTHS after 4th ed, was out?
You know better than this. Not only were the News article and Ampersand out a month before hand. A youtube interview was put up the day before the launch. That I've linked for you previously as well as the transcripts of the youtube videos posted by Cart_Sprinter.
But here's further information:
This D&Di News (separated from the regular news when the D&DInsider site got updated) article was posted 4 days after the launch.
This article (April 21st 2008) on an independent site that was able to play with the tools also reported that the tools had no clear release date:
[INDENT]The D&D Insider tools currently are in development with no solid word on when they will be released to players and the cost and nature of the subscription associated with some of the tools is also being finalized prior to June 6th’s launch of the new books.[/INDENT]
Not only that but Cart_Sprinter scoured the forums for posts made by staff and started a FAQ 6 days after the launch in this forum, which was then moved to the announcement forum.
The first general question deals with the missing tools:
[INDENT]-- [GQ1] Where is the D&DI applications, how come I can't find them to download?
As mentioned in Ampersand column here, the client applications will be added into the D&DI mix later, so there will be no program to download on release day, as the initial D&DI offering will be web based.
When the applications will become available, there will be a link and indications on how to download them.
To be able to download them, you will need to have a D&DI account. You will not need to be a subscriber though.[/INDENT]
So they mentioned D&Di in the forums, on the website, and on at least one independent site. That takes care of the "WOTC did not say ANYTHING about DDi anyplace". As for the "for TWO MONTHS after 4th ed, was out?", there were plenty of places where they said the tools would not be released before and soon after the launch.
As for the ad in the back of the books:
They went to the printers in March (they hadn't decided that they wouldn't launch until late April early May).
May 23rd, Scott Rouse posted that they had just shipped out 39 truckloads of books. Someone calculated that to be somewhere around a million copies of the book. So with the 47ish day spread that means about 723,000 books had been printed (assuming 15,400 a day), by the time they officially announced the tools would not be available at launch.
When I first heard about 4e, I thought 'Neat, but I won't be able to play.'. I don't have enough time or friends in the area that will play. But then my friend from oversees said 'No! We can play online! They are releasing a virtual table top! It will even have a feature to recruit people who aren't in a campaign.' So yes, when that did emerge I was disappointed, but hopeful that it would be out soon. I bought the PHB in anticipation, so I could learn the game and be ready. At this point, I am not hopeful. And I have not, and will not, buy another book until such point as it's ready.
I'm not mad, I'm just sad. Sad that I can't play 4e because of poor planning and implementation on WOTC's part. You raised my hopes and dashed them quite spectacularly. And at this point, I have no expectation that the VTT will ever be released, despite what anyone says. The lack of foresight shown so far makes me doubt that the software team and their management can get their acts together enough to produce what they were supposed to have done over a year ago.
I find it absurd that people can't or won't accept that some people are upset about the way things went.
When I first heard about 4e, I thought 'Neat, but I won't be able to play.'. I don't have enough time or friends in the area that will play. But then my friend from oversees said 'No! We can play online! They are releasing a virtual table top! It will even have a feature to recruit people who aren't in a campaign.' So yes, when that did emerge I was disappointed, but hopeful that it would be out soon. I bought the PHB in anticipation, so I could learn the game and be ready. At this point, I am not hopeful. And I have not, and will not, buy another book until such point as it's ready.
I'm not mad, I'm just sad. Sad that I can't play 4e because of poor planning and implementation on WOTC's part. You raised my hopes and dashed them quite spectacularly. And at this point, I have no expectation that the VTT will ever be released, despite what anyone says. The lack of foresight shown so far makes me doubt that the software team and their management can get their acts together enough to produce what they were supposed to have done over a year ago.
I don't know if you are including me in that. I've stated they can be upset, and they should exspress it.
But calling WoTC liars and dishonest is going to far. That's not feedback, that's insults.
What does that serve?
I don't know if you are including me in that. I've stated they can be upset, and they should exspress it.
But calling WoTC liars and dishonest is going to far. That's not feedback, that's insults.
What does that serve?
It serves to express their anger in an outlet that does the least harm. Better they express it with words through a message board than a brick through WOTC's window.
I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.
It serves to express their anger in an outlet that does the least harm. Better they express it with words through a message board than a brick through WOTC's window.
I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.
Mature people can express thier anger without insults. Insults do nothing more then create communication barriers between anyone.
If the forums are what people are using to give feedback, imagine having to wade through posts that are basically nothing more then insults. How many posts are you willing to read calling the company you work for and believe in, liars and dishonest?
More so, that you know for a fact the company wasn't dishonest, and had to make a choice that was going to upset fans that, you really don't want to upset.
Now imagine being called incompetent at your job because the company couldn't deliver on part of a plan. More so when you know that there were factors you can't talk about that caused issues.
I seriously doubt that WoTC hires anyone that isn't a fan and more then thrilled to be working for them. I'm sure that there are people who work there that put in more then 40 hours a week, more then 5 days a week.
Just think about the people that would want to work at WoTC. Do anyone really think it's a bunch of game hating slackers?
I know lots of people at DC comics and Marvel comics. Most of them want to work in editorial, you know editing the comics they love. Most of them actually work in non-creative jobs, such as contracts, advertising, licensing. Some have worked for a few years. They all work long hard hours when needed.
All in the hope they get into editorial some day.
That's how it is with these companies. The people who work there, they really want to work there.
So man, cut them some slack. I bet they put in longer weeks then most of us do. And it's certainly not because they are slackers or incompetent.
I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.
Given the situation as it was with Gleemax and the outsourced work on the DDI prior to it being worked on internally, and even after that point the handling of the situation by management, incompetency was involved in various places on a spectacular level. The current developers I'd cut some serious slack though, given what they have to do, and what resources they're being given. Management I would not be so kind towards however.
Grrrrrrr!
HEY! Don't take out my example!
Grrrrrrr!
While I thought the example was reasonable, there's no leeway in the rules here with regard to that kind of thing.
Now imagine being called incompetent at your job because the company couldn't deliver on part of a plan. More so when you know that there were factors you can't talk about that caused issues.
I seriously doubt that WoTC hires anyone that isn't a fan and more then thrilled to be working for them. I'm sure that there are people who work there that put in more then 40 hours a week, more then 5 days a week.
So man, cut them some slack. I bet they put in longer weeks then most of us do. And it's certainly not because they are slackers or incompetent.
1) Part of a plan? More like the whole DDI plan. Not a single piece of software was ready at launch, when the plan was that it all would be.
2) Factors that caused issues? Yes, I suppose that incompetency is a factor.
3) Hiring fans is great. But have you ever read fanfics? Fans may certainly have a love of what they do. That doesn't mean they can effectively do the job at the same level of someone with more training. I run a swimming lesson program with over 900 kids/week and a staff of about 70. Just because someone loves to swim, doesn't mean they can effectively work with children. And just because someone loves working with children doesn't mean they can teach them to swim. Hiring the right staff, who can do the job AND who want to do the job, is essential, and if that didn't happen, it was due to incompetency of the hiring staff.
4) The fact is, somewhere down the line, bad decisions were made. Whether it was in the hiring, the firing, time management, false reporting of progress to management, the lack of managerial oversight. Something Went Wrong. In fact, a lot of somethings went wrong. And to say 'Oh, this stuff happens' invites it to happen again and again.
I find it absurd that people can't or won't accept that some people are upset about the way things went.
I have no problem with people being upset, or more specifically disappointed, frustrated, annoyed or irritated. It's those people who are offended that need to take a close look at themselves, however.
As far as DDI is concerned, the only people to whom WotC actually owes anything to are those who have already signed up, and most of us seem quite happy with what we have paid for, even if we'd like to have more. An explicit apology for poor planning might be nice too, but considering that every attempt at that thus far brings a chorus of "It's not nearly good enough!", I'm not surprised that they're circumspect.
So out of a population size of 6 million to get a confidence interval of:
+/-4, the sample size would have to be about 600.
+/-3, the sample size would have to be about 1067
+/-2, the sample size would have to be about 2400
That is nice if the sample is random and you want a 90 percent confidence level, however neither occurs.
The survey itself was not random, further the survey was reactive to answers as opposed to static. As far as it goes it requested text feed back (for those that did not get dumped quickly) that was not reported on.
The company reported what results they wanted to report, based on what they admit was a flawed survey.
give me any statistical raw data, and i can prove EVERYTHING you want me to. that's how many politicians are using statistics anyway.
(1) Offer to invest $200k or so to fund its development.
(2) Organise a petition of 5-10k users who are either current DDI subscribers or have spent at least $US50 on D&D in the last 6 months, who are willing to sign that they would prefer to see the VTT over the campaign builder and pay at least (say) $US15 a month for a DDI subscription containing it.
(3) Collect $US20 from each of said signatories in (2) and use the money to do (1).
Don't quibble and moan about the survey; provide a compelling business case to provide you with what you want.
The same situation occurs for us Mac users. We'd much rather the non-web tools had Mac support, and lack of it might mean we don't buy the "full" DDI if/when the advanced tools are available. But all we can do is suggest that it's financially worth it for WotC to go cross-platform. DDI is not an essential service, and they don't owe us a product, even if we would be willing to pay for it. Grumping and moaning about us being an aggrieved party and unfairly treated just makes us sound like whiners.
It would be selective if they hand-chose who took the survey.
Instead the survey was offered to a random sampling of visitors to D&D related sites (WotC, ENWorld being the two known major sites).
No.
This was a self-selected survey by definition.
Since the reported cutout was not playing D&D, and I'm not currently playing, either I'd give honest answers and get booted, or I'd lie, give my opinions, but since I was lying to the survey, what would my input have been worth?
Yes, it does say, take your game online.
But the ads don't simply say, online. The first sentence says:
[INDENT]With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools, DDi will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. [/INDENT]
That's just as important as the second sentence. If you are going to make a claim that they advertised and failed to live up to ad, you should take the ad as a whole.
And as a whole the ad does not simply talk about the VTT and CV.
That's my point. They failed to bring the game table to reality so far. But they have not failed to bring DDi to reality, and the ad is for DDi.
Some people are so focused on just the VTT, they aren't looking at what else was planned for, and saying they lied and failed and more.
Yes, they failed to bring every single thing they hoped for to DDi. That does not equal they failed to bring us DDi.
And i agree mudbunny, having other tools in place is goign to make the game table more useful. As I recall, part of it was that you can make your own dungeons and import them into the game table.
If you can't do that, well, that just means premade dungeons by WoTC. The Game Table suddenly has less appeal to me, since I don't run just their modules.
That's an absurd statement. Just look at the ad, it's presented on a computer, a laptop. The tag line is highlighting the use of PCs, the text informs that you can game online. The (although fake) image on the PC is of a Dungeon map with virtual miniatures on it.
These extreme excuses are on par with the idiots who defend using pirated versions of .PDFs since due to the law in certain regions, once a document has entered their domain, you can re-label it and thereby circumvent copyright claiming some obscure version of "fair use". In my book that is still not right.
I'm aware neither is technically against the law and moral ethics are as flexible as the human claiming to have them. I still hold that not delivering on publically advertised products and not paying the original developer is something neither party can really profit from in the long run.
All the while not having to hold yourself to any standard in the relationship between you and a company. Meaning, say whatever you want to get back at company you think has wronged you, without facts, because what can they do back to you? Nothing.
Although this is not what I am doing. I don't say whatever I want. In the end of the day, I have to make a decision to part with my money or not. Part of that decision for me is, what am I buying, is the company that I am giving my money to giving me value, am I rewarding a company that I do not feel should be rewarded.
Now, with WotC, I break that down into 2 parts: the book side, and the digital side.
Is it really so hard to understand that WotC has had these same problems for 10 years now on the digital side, that some of us should call them out and tell them they are not doing a good job? They had learned, but they fired the guy who was regularly updating the community after they started the pay service.
You cannot please everyone. There will be people who complain about the length of time that things have taken. This is the price of doing business.
At this point in time, when the Campagn Manager comes out, then I will believe them. Why should I, as a customer that had waited for the Character Generator from the back of the 3.0 books, then E-Tools and all of the problems with that and what it eventually became, and now these tools, believe them otherwise?
In my eyes, they don't have a great track record in this regard. With all the talk in beginning of the 4E announcement, and what they showed, I was led to believe they turned it around. Looks like they didn't from where I am standing.
Now, on the book side of things, I have purchased a bunch of stuff based on the previews they have given me. They have it together on that side of the company. I hope, someday, that WotC cares enough about the digital side to give it the same resources and respect.
Oh well guess I'll just stick with tabletop for now. Maybe I'll check back on the development of the vtt when 5th edition comes out, hopefully by then it'll be done.
Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.
Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.
WotC is aware that it is a possibility. I am sure it is one of the things that they considered when they made the decision to push back the release of the VTT.
Ya'know what'd be great...the ability to cut and paste into it (the campaign app) from .pdf files!
WotC is aware that it is a possibility. I am sure it is one of the things that they considered when they made the decision to push back the release of the VTT.
As much you might want to put positive spin on it in WotC's favor, I very much doubt it was a carefully considered, planned decision to "push back the release" of the VTT. I say that having spoken with one of the developers in detail about the mess that led up to the current situation. I wouldn't blame the in-house team at all, but management seriously made some mistakes, and outsourcing didn't really work out for them, to say the least.
As much you might want to put positive spin on it in WotC's favor, I very much doubt it was a carefully considered, planned decision to "push back the release" of the VTT. I say that having spoken with one of the developers in detail about the mess that led up to the current situation.
If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.
If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.
I'm not a fan of 4e, but I'd rather someone not lose their job if I did.
If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.
I have to agree with Shemeska, outing a source can cause worst things to happen. It clearly is up to you to trust statements made, that is for you to decide.
I have no inside source, what I do see is that indeed they outsourced to the wrong company. That someone in management and/or PR over promised.
That indeed the push back of release of anything was not planned.
Heck the plan was to collect twice as much money from a greater pool of people.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.
After all, plans change so its OK, right?
With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.
After all, plans change so its OK, right?
It's totally OK!
Plans do change. Have fun, Pathfinder offers a lot of great stuff.
BTW, WoTC understands that some people will do this. If all that stuff had happened like they wanted, some people would have still left. They might have left because DnD didn't feel like the game they grew up with.
People leave and come all the time for many reasons.
Have fun
With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.
After all, plans change so its OK, right?
Unless you're in the pool of people who "can't" play unless they play online I don't see the connection/reason for such a reaction - however I'm with Dane.
Yes, that's fully ok. If you aren't getting what you want from 4E, and if the change in plans from WotC means that you won't be getting what you want until the plan is completed - by all means, play what you do enjoy.
Of course, to the best of my knowledge Pathfinder doesn't have a Character Builder, Visualizer, or Game Table either.
With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.
After all, plans change so its OK, right?
Yup.
People change games that they play all the time.
While I am sure that WotC would prefer that you not change, I am also sure that they realize and accept that they can't please all the people all the time. Some of the decisions they make will annoy some people and will cause them to change systems that they play.
It is a part of business.
Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.
However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?
However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?
(I am not a lawyer)
Other than a couple of monsters which are considered WotC IP (mind flayers, beholders) I don't think that it would be a problem. Kobolds, trolls, elves, dragons, zombies, vampires are monsters all have a long history in human folklore.
But then you are getting into the complexities of law. Thus, the answer can be either phrased as "No, unless they do..." or "Yes, but they can always..."
However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?
ONLY if they used DnD materials. For example they can't own orcs. But beholders and mindflayers yes.
However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?
I don't think WotC can bust some other company's chops for creating a 3D virtual table top. They could, of course, go after somebody for using WotC's intellectual property (probably images, "owned names" or whatever, and stuff like that) and/or representing themselves as the D&D virtual tabletop program.
But otherwise, unless they patented it, the idea of a 3D virtual tabletop doesn't belong to WotC.
The ninja-bunny strikes again.
Easy to do when you can control the forums.
Easy to do when you can control the forums.
I don't control the forums any more than you guys do.
I don't control the forums any more than you guys do.
LOL
LOL
He isn't being facetous.
As VCLs we have ZERO direct control over the forums.
When we want to move/sticky/close/etc a thread we have to make a post to the ORCs requesting they do so for us.
All we get for being VCLs is a fancy-schmancy title, a few headaches, and Custom Avatars.
Oh, and a slightly larger PM inbox for all our groupies.
Unfortunately, WotC doesn't supply the groupies.
No one is going to change anyone else’s opinion that they were wronged or that Wizards can do no wrong.
So while the announcement is disappointing, it is not earth ending.
So instead of valuing the DDI tools as to what they might offer, you should value them at what they currently offer and then decide if it is worth it to you.
While the allure of what could have been surely snared some customers, most will learn not to go following the sirens call next time.
With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.
After all, plans change so its OK, right?
Sure.
What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?
Sure.
What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?
Well, yeah.
Sure.
What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?
I'm trying to see how many people will try and make me stay and drink the kool aid.
I'm trying to see how many people will try and make me stay and drink the kool aid.
DRINK IT!
Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.
It's not like a VTT is a particularly unique product. Go look at the "digital" boards for a long list of them. And it doesn't take much effort to customise most for D&D.
Heck, if you want 3D, people have used Neverwinter Nights as a VTT in all but name for several years now.
But building a D&D campaign manager that ties directly into the WotC IP and digital data? That's something where controlling the IP and direct access can make a huge difference.
I don't think WotC would shed too many tears if someone made a 3D D&D compatible VTT.
My anti virus went off when I tryed to click it.
I'm pretty sure there are no virus's.
Those of us who are displeased with this change in priorities have a legitimate grievance. Yes, some people are grumps who like to complain about everything, but some of us are very rational people with very rational objections. I want the tools I was hyped up about. I want to see that they can deliver quality products, not abandon them when they get hard to finish.
I think the Campaign Tools are a great idea. I voted for them as a feature I'd like to see. I didn't mean at the expense of the other things I thought were just around the corner. I think WotC deserves any grief they are getting from disgruntled customers, and I think those of you who are being hostile to the people venting need to realize this.
It is not the consumer's fault that we are upset about DDI. I've said this before, and I will say it again(in fact, I reposted this post before), the consumers did not advertise these programs and services, WotC did. WotC advertised it as a major selling point of the system. For many of us, that selling point is what caused us to purchase the game. If many of you don't remember, WotC offerred the following glimpse at 4th edition prior to the books being released, pay attention to the last two clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_e5wAUwdmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-9vMYGu0Q&feature=related
I remember how pumped up I got thinking about playing online with my friends. We are all busy irl with family and professional responsibilities and the VTT was going to make getting together for a game much easier.
Then, the core books come out and if you don't remember, the ad's in the back say the following:
"Combat Improves When You Add A Mouse" Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider. With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere-wherever they live, wherever you go.
Of course we all remember that DDI was not available upon the release of the books, but they did have lots of advertisements for it. They finally released DDI which was composed of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, the compendium, and some bonus tools.
At that point they had the words COMING SOON! written above the CB, DB, CV, and VTT. WotC came out and said, "hey everyone, we know we don't have a lot of the stuff we promised, but if you sign up now we will lock in your billing price for the remainder of your subscription, even when all the other tools come out."
A lot of people are probably in the same boat as me and thought: "You know, I really am not interested in the E-Zines and I really want DDI mainly for the VTT, but hey, it says coming soon and surely the CB,VTT,CV,DB will be out before too long, it says so right on the advertisement. I might as well buy it now."
One could argue that it was deceptive business practice. They advertised advertised advertised, got people to subscribe, then took all of it down from the site and are now saying "we have decided to work on other projects at this time."
Most of us who are upset have very valid reasons. I have no major complaints about the CB or 4th edition in general. However, I have invested thousands of dollars in D&D over the years and I feel tricked into purchasing 4th edition and subscribing to DDI.
My gaming friends are spread all over the country and we are all busy irl. The VTT was the reason we all converted to 4th edition. I know there are alternate online table-tops out there, and we will gladly use them. But we all spent money to get a product that was advertised that never came into fruition.
I appreciate the head's up from WotC that the VTT has been canned, but we could have used that information a few months ago. An apology would be nice.
This. Very much this. It was a classic bait and switch. And the only reason they released the survey results was the give themselves a cover of legitimacy when making the switch. Think about it, how many times in the past has WotC released the results of a survey? I can't think of the last time I saw that.
I'm not one of these "ZOMG IM QUITTING 4E FOREVER!!!1!!!!11!!!eleven!!" folks, but I am very disappointed with this, and I think its only natural, considering the product I thought I was purchasing versus the "new direction" they are taking. I haven't canceled my subscription yet, but I am considering it.
makes contact with MWF and his/her wish is to see the VTT (and/or other promised tools) completed and be able to use it before they die. The question would be would WOTC be able to fulfill this child's wish (of course funded by MWF)?The question would be would WOTC be able to fulfill this child's wish (of course funded by MWF)?
Wow. That's...ghoulish.
I don't advocate killing children to get what I want. It is so completely unethical. However, MWF does do good work. They even got Upper Deck to create a Yu-Gi-Oh card specifically for a diing child. Here's an interesting fact: the child's illness went into remission and is still alive. But that's going too far off-topic. What I did was put forward a hypothetical situation. I'd like to see WOTC's response to this hypothetical situation. I'll even be satisfied with a hypothetical response.
Why would they ever answer a question like that? It's in poor taste, quite frankly.
Hypothetical questions often end up being a waste of time. And often are meant as a way to trap someone, based on a non reality.
Why not ask WoTC something more practical, like would they switch back to working on the VTT, if another company would be willing to partner with them and carry some of the finacial burden and work responisiblity.
Or even better yet, how about all the people that have said they can do better, go volunteer to work on it for free? The boards are certainly full of people like that.
I don't advocate killing children to get what I want. It is so completely unethical. However, MWF does do good work. They even got Upper Deck to create a Yu-Gi-Oh card specifically for a diing child. Here's an interesting fact: the child's illness went into remission and is still alive. But that's going too far off-topic. What I did was put forward a hypothetical situation. I'd like to see WOTC's response to this hypothetical situation. I'll even be satisfied with a hypothetical response.
::continue derailment::
Hypothetically? I'd love to say we'd create a D&D tool so epic and so powerful that this poor unfortunate kid's ailment would retreat in fear of it. However, due to the high tech nature of such a tool, he/she would be the only one who would be able to see and interact with the afore-mentioned tool
Seriously though - My heart goes out to any child (and their families) who has a deadly illness, and this isn't something that we should make light of. There's no way we could posit what we would do in such a situation. Lets try to keep things a bit more on topic than this in the future guys.
::end derailment::
I ran into a WotC employee at PAX08 in an elevator while leaving the convention. I was wearing a D&D related shirt and he asked if I had checked out the character generator. I said I had and I was then honest with him. I told him it was much better than I had expected. And I meant it.
I've seen this company try to put out tools with this brand before and it didn't really end well. Let us all just be greatful that they managed to get the character generator working before they dropped the ball. At least they delivered on something. Anything else I see out of DDI will be a plesant suprise.
It just seems like the magazine subscriptions weren't enough to pay the developer bills so the customer is getting stuck with a diminished product.
This. Very much this. It was a classic bait and switch.
The above individual has a very mistaken idea of what, exactly, a bait and switch is.
A bait and switch occurs when a company advertises a product at a very low price, lures the customer in, and then is revealed to not actually offer the advertised product. Instead, they try to sell you a substitute product for a higher price.
What WotC did was miss a release date on a portion of their package, and to make up for that decided to offer their reduced package for a reduced price. This is pretty much exactly not what a bait and switch is.
Beware those people who try and tell you that WotC is pulling a bait and switch. They are speaking from ignorance, malice, bitterness, or some combination of the three.
Beware those people who try and tell you that WotC is pulling a bait and switch. They are speaking from ignorance, malice, bitterness, or some combination of the three.
I would say that those people are just as informative as the fanboys, if not more so. It lets me know that the company in question has a problem delivering on their promises and makeing deadlines....enough so that people take to the BBS to complain.
I would say that those people are just as informative as the fanboys, if not more so. It lets me know that the company in question has a problem delivering on their promises and makeing deadlines....enough so that people take to the BBS to complain.
No matter who the complaints are against, I tend to put a lot less stock in the complaints of those who make use of hyperbole in order to explain their grievances. Those who are willing to accuse a company of a violation of law for missing a deadline are the same sort of people who will complain about just about anything - they enjoy being righteously indignant. They are not to be taken seriously. Listen instead to those who are able to voice their complaints clearly and without resorting to extreme, false language.
Listen instead to those who are able to voice their complaints clearly and without resorting to extreme, false language.
I absolutely agree.
Let us all just be greatful that they managed to get the character generator working before they dropped the ball. At least they delivered on something. Anything else I see out of DDI will be a plesant suprise.
It just seems like the magazine subscriptions weren't enough to pay the developer bills so the customer is getting stuck with a diminished product.
The ball was dropped well before the current group of developers began work on the Character Generator. The current folks are to a great extent hamstrung by prior management's decisions, problems with outsourced coding, and the spending glut for that outsourcing that's now limiting resources and manpower to a level below what would be needed to restart work on things like the VTT.
I doubt the draw of the e-zines for DDI subscriptions has much to do with the current problems and delays. That's one thing I can really only speculate on for the most part, though I suspect without much inside detail, that it's decent, but well below original expectations suggested to Hasbro, and in light of expenditures on Gleemax etc, facing a horrible uphill battle to claim any level of success.
I really did not think that a large company could be so openly shady in the modern market.
Hopefully someone has kept a copy of what has been promised so far so they can give it to the Better Business Bureau.
If there was a lawyer who thought WotC had any money you know there would be a class action lawsuit by now.
Their 'so called' poll was a laugh too. Did they ask people who still post on the boards what item they wanted to see next? The people who bought the books for the vaporware gametable stopped reading the boards a long time ago and have been waiting for some solid news. I guess this is the news we have been looking for.
Their pollsters should work for the government. "Here's what we want to do, now go get some data to support it."
There were some business plans, some promotion and advertisement, and then plans changed, mostly because their supplier let them down. Things get delayed. It happens.
Ratchet back the self-entitlement.
There were some business plans, some promotion and advertisement, and then plans changed, mostly because their supplier let them down. Things get delayed. It happens.
please keep in mind, that this is just an assumption, as well. failure in outsourced software products is likely a matter of failure in various parts along the chain, most likely bad communication between the companies, and also often just a monetary issue.
just because that partnership has been laid to rest, does not mean that any of the companies did everything wrong, neither wotc nor radiantmachine.
---
as for they promised:well, they did not promise. but they also made a lot of bad calls and their information was pretty sparse/ill communicated. Because businesses do not promise anything, this is as close to a broken promise as you'll get in business.
Problem with vendors? Most likely. Very likely. Does that mean poor management on WoTC's part? That is an assumtion.
So when you pay a vendor to do content developement, say for a science program for high school. And along the way, you find out that the vendor has been submitting plagerized work, 10 chapters and 7 labs, that's quite a serious issue. This isn't an example, this actually happened where I once worked.
See, you know the vendor, they have been used before. You make an agreement that they develope original content. Everyone's responsiblity is clearly laid out in the workflow.
Now, we thought they were developing this content inhouse. Turns out they actually hired a freelancer, who in turn used friends to write the chapters and labs.
The vendor never told us this, they presented us with the face they were doing the work, and checking all the work.
Once we found out the writing had been plagerized, all this information about the freelancers came out, because the vendor hoped it would put the blame elsewhere. Didn't work of course. Not only had the vendor presented a false impression of what they were doing, they weren't even taking the time to check the work they were getting.
Thankfully I wasn't on this project directly.
I think that they need to put it out eventually, but, if they can get tools out quicker that will attract a much broader group to subscribe to DDI, and then, when the GT does come out, be ready-made to plug into the game table, I think that it is worth delaying the game table some.
You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.
You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that your opinion is wrong, and if I gave that impression I apologize.
Problem with vendors? Most likely. Very likely. Does that mean poor management on WoTC's part? That is an assumtion.
I would accept that, and I did accept that in 3E when the vender was Fluid. But I cannot accept the fact that they just happen to get a bad vendor yet again for the D&D tools for 4E.
The fact that they have had 2 separate vender problems (and from what I understand, there were a little problems from Code Monkey - on the WotC side from what I understand), make me think that the bulk of the blame is on WotC. Now that could be communication issues (who would of thought?
) or it could be going with the lowest price vender. Whatever it is, I find it very hard to beleive it was only a vender problem.I would accept that, and I did accept that in 3E when the vender was Fluid. But I cannot accept the fact that they just happen to get a bad vendor yet again for the D&D tools for 4E.
The fact that they have had 2 separate vender problems (and from what I understand, there were a little problems from Code Monkey - on the WotC side from what I understand), make me think that the bulk of the blame is on WotC. Now that could be communication issues (who would of thought?
I've worked with vendors that were good on one project, bad on the next.
Vendors quality goes up and down from project to project. Once you get some experience with vendors, the common thing you discover is that when vendors get over worked, quality goes down, and excuses go up.
I've yet to see a vendor ever say, we are to over worked to take on more work. They all say yes, and every one suffers, save the company that is paying the most.
Communication is a lot harder then people think. It really, really is.
I'm not saying it was a vendor side only issue.
But you've got some people here placing all the blame on WoTC, and making statements as facts, and saying that anyone else's opinions are assumtions. Trying to have it both ways, denouncing anyone else's speculation, while demanding their's be taken as fact.
Whatever it is, I find it very hard to beleive it was only a vendor problem.
big, successful companies do have vendor problems often. what distinguishes many of them from wotc, is that they usually have a better backup plan, and it seems to me, better contracts. when i subcontract out to another company, i make sure it's clearly written in the contract who has to provide what, until when, and what will happen if someone fails to provide that.
examples include:
- answers to system critical questions have to be provided within a workday from both sides.
- specifications have to be sent till xx.xx, or the product will be late at least each day the spec is late, and charges have to be paid nevertheless.
- testsuite has to be ready by xx.xx, alpha, beta, at xx.xx.
and so on, and so on. there's a reason good managers are highly valued and have their price.
wotc saved in that department, as i doubt that randyb cost them that lot more than say, dave noonan or colin price, who were not in charge of some of the digital aspects, but merely ordinary R&D or whatever it is they did those days. and those savings are part of the reason why they failed in the past, failed with the 4e tools, and will fail again in the future.
---
note:
even though i see their failures with a lot of salt (not just a grain), i can understand them fully. i also can understand the will to hire games people over fully professionals, but i hope they learned a lesson from that - they can't expect the same efficiency from them, if their primary decision making was money or involvement in the industry, and only the secondary was skill.
A bait and switch occurs when a company advertises a product at a very low price, lures the customer in, and then is revealed to not actually offer the advertised product. Instead, they try to sell you a substitute product for a higher price.
Your definition of a classic bait and switch is correct. What I am proposing is that what they've done here is also a bait and switch, although of another kind. They baited people to subscribe to D&DI to get the VTT and CV, pushed it back from launch (certainly understandable) and then almost a year later when they still couldn't deliver, they created a poll that would generate the response they wanted (build something else) and then released that poll as justification to then switch away from the product that they are unwilling/incapable of producing. They both baited and switch. I'm calling it a bait and switch.
I'll ask again, why did they release this poll? I've never seen them release internal polls before. They did it because it gives them the justification to do what they wanted to do. I suggest that the poll was designed for this purpose in the first place, and I believe they only released it because they got the answers they wanted. They didn't ask "Would you want Campaign Tools INSTEAD or BEFORE the tools we've already said we'd give you". I suspect they would have gotten a much different answer.
I want to stress again, I'm not one of those "WotC = evil" posters. Along with playing 4e regularly I also play Magic regularly. I give WotC lots of praise and defense when I think they've earned it. I fought on these forums in the lead up to 4e release against the anti-4e crowd. I think 4e is a great system and tons of fun. I also think that they made what I consider a promise (others may disagree) and they are now reneging on that promise. The indefinite suspension of VTT is a death knell for it.
They've been working on it for almost a year past when they said it would be ready. From all accounts its at best in an early alpha state. Just how long do we think the VTT is going to take? And now it isn't even going to be on the top of their list. Mark my words, VTT is going to be a long time coming, if it ever comes at all. That is really sad, because a MAJOR push of their advertising campaign for 4e was that we'd be able to get together with our friends online and play D&D on the VTT. They hyped me up, and now they aren't delivering. I'll go on playing 4e tabletop, I'm having lots of fun, but I'm considering whether or not to keep the D&DI subscription. I may decide the CB is worth it. Heck I may even stick around to see what they do with the Campaign Tools. However, I'm very disappointed, and I'm using the forums (as well as direct correspondence with WotC) to voice my frustration.
You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.
Sorry that you feel the way you do. But business plans change, people get laid off, projects get put off and sometimes outright canceled. Its the hazards of doing business.
You have stated your opinion and have emailed WOTC to express your displeasure. That is the way to handle it.
Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?
Sorry that you feel the way you do. But business plans change, people get laid off, projects get put off and sometimes outright canceled. Its the hazards of doing business.
You have stated your opinion and have emailed WOTC to express your displeasure. That is the way to handle it.
Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?
Maybe its a combination of feeling like they aren't being heard while being shouted down by everyone else? Just a thought.
Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?
the problem is actually neither the people who complain over and over, nbor the people who horray over and over. the problem is when two of those kind meet each other, and decide to battle it out.
it's the reason why i ignore (manually, not automatically, as they might still say something useful) both such people as d**e or k*, because they are not driven by the wish to communicate, but a wish to win. this is nothing i like to see, or be part of.
@falcon: there's a saying where i come from. goes something like: "the wood answers as loud as you shout into it. ", meaning that if you are agressive, you won't get an answer or if you get one, it will be exactly the same way. controlling your feelings and how you argue, should be key to getting answers.
also, keep to trevor if you need something. he's a nice guy.
Maybe its a combination of feeling like they aren't being heard while being shouted down by everyone else? Just a thought.
The thing is, they know they have been heard. WoTC and the volunteers who monitor this forum have responded or said they have informed WoTC.
I am not advocating they not speak up, but I don't like the insults and lies they tell. Yes, it's amazing some of them lie. Some just get the facts wrong. How many times have they gotten told that the PDF plan originally intended was scrapped way before 4E came out. And yet they keep saying PDFs were promised with each bought hard copy book.
Lets be honest, it's no longer about being heard. And it's completely impossible to be shouted down on a forum. I can not erease their posts with my posting, nor does it slow them down from posting.
At this point, it's just sour grapes because they had their say, which turned into tantrums, for some, thread derailing for others, and they didn't get what they wanted.
But you've got some people here placing all the blame on WoTC, and making statements as facts, and saying that anyone else's opinions are assumtions. Trying to have it both ways, denouncing anyone else's speculation, while demanding their's be taken as fact.
Well, to be honest, it sounds that you were not around for the ride for the 3E tools. This is well documented if you google E-Tools, Master Tools, Fluid, Code Monkey. Although all of it is 5 years or more old at this point.
The fact is, they went with a vender that did not have alot of experience and it did not come out the way they intended. Most companies would be very careful the next time to make sure it did not happen again.
Again, those of us that were around back then and waited for the planned tools, see parallels into what is going on now. To be honest, I would rather NOT see that happen.
Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.
Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.
I second this statement. Not only is the CB awesome, which would mean the CT would be awesome, I want them back on the VTT and CV.
I second this statement. Not only is the CB awesome, which would mean the CT would be awesome, I want them back on the VTT and CV.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.
Given the number of developers available to work on any new apps, it's going to be interesting to see what happens.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.
I hope not. 12 months would be a full 2 years after the release of 4E.
If it takes that long, maybe they should have pooled there resources and spent the next 6 months getting out one of the other applications that are at least 1/2 way done.
We shall see I suppose. At this point in time, they are in control of their own destiny.
I feel this has been the best version to date (how many of you remember trying to explain THAC0 to a new player). While i was stationed at LRAFB i was in 3 gameing groups playing anywhere from 12-18 hours a week, now i have moved back to my home town and got part of the old group back, however i am only home One week every one to two months. I have been looking forward to the Virtual Table Top for some time now. I can't wait to play with those guys again, but online is all we have now. And to think i can put the map on my TV instead of using the Chessex map will be so much better. I have to say that the plans for the Character Gen, Campaign Tools, and the Table Top were a big undertaking. But if we allow them time to get all of the programs working well and working well with each other. We will all be gratefull they took there time. I have seen disasters in programs that were rushed (e-Tools). And to think i spent money on that
There would be one wish I do have and I think many would agree, we need to be kept informed a little more regularly than we are now or at least given a date (even if it changes at least we would feel more comfortable about spending the money ahead of time)So last week we announced that we were working on a set of Campaign Tools with the intention of helping players manage and run their ongoing games and campaigns. These tools will focus on encounters, monsters, mapping and adventures.
Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.
As far as more details about the Campaign Tools, I don't have any more information for you now, but we should have some details for you soon.
I'm pleased that you are working on the campaign tools first. And i've actually subscribed to DDI because the bonus tools are available(encounter builder & monster builder )
And to give you some feedback to help develop campaign tools here's a few thoughts.
Encounter builder is almost excellent as it is. If you added a monster stat block/card and a map to the print out. You would have pretty much the same format as the adventures published in dungeon magazine. As it is now I print out the encounter, they go print out the monster entries from the compendium. But being able to put them all together would be excellent tool. Especially as it would be in the same format as published adventures.
Monster builder is good. I would of liked to traps/hazards in there as well. And also the ability to increase/decrease a current monsters level. For instance yesterday I wanted to use a Medusa but they are 11th level, and 8th or 9th level would of been more appropriate level. Be able to load it into the builder and reduce it by 2 or 3 levels would of been great
Encounter builder is almost excellent as it is. If you added a monster stat block/card and a map to the print out. You would have pretty much the same format as the adventures published in dungeon magazine. As it is now I print out the encounter, they go print out the monster entries from the compendium. But being able to put them all together would be excellent tool. Especially as it would be in the same format as published adventures.
Monster builder is good. I would of liked to traps/hazards in there as well. And also the ability to increase/decrease a current monsters level. For instance yesterday I wanted to use a Medusa but they are 11th level, and 8th or 9th level would of been more appropriate level. Be able to load it into the builder and reduce it by 2 or 3 levels would of been great
I agree with the above. Also to add my two cents, I would love to see a adventure creator, allowing you to basically put together maps, and combine that with player information for the DM to read, a list of encounters,monsters, tactics, and treasure parcles, And make it all be able to be extracted so that we could share our adventures like we can our character builder ideas.
As for those that are disappointed by the VTT delay, I can understand, but I don't recall ever being PROMISED anything? I saw some plans and some promotion of the plans, but plans change. Stuff happens. Its okay. I'm only paying for what I've got access to.
Well you could try opening to the last page of your 4th Edition Players Handbook. ;)
Right there at the bottom of the page. "Play D&D online".
Personally I think WoTC made a bad call. The campaign manager is too broad and ill-defined. It's the perfect program to eat up all their time but never actually come out.
And the chances of seeing the VTT before 5th Edition are... pretty slim now. Which is a shame. Because it would allow people to play D&D no matter what else they had going on in their lives. Thus encouraging book sales. The kind of people the Campaign Manager helps would buy those books anyway.
And I'm in the camp that thinks the poll was specifically created to get this result. They decided what they wanted and then created a poll that would give them an excuse.
I JUST answered one of their polls. It asked: "Do you play D&D online currently". It did NOT ask: "Do you want us to provide you with a way to play D&D online". A different poll I believe but still formated to reinforce this decision.
All these tools without a VTT is like a dating service without a chat interface. You have all these tools but no way to actually make use of them or be part of a community.
P.S Thanks to tiamat for linking me to this topic i appreciate the leg up.
When the books were originally assembled and sent off to the printers, it was with the expectation (of a company that were novices in software development of this sort) that the software would be ready upon release of 4E.
Well, an ooops later, they weren't, and since then they have switched the business model that they are using to one that works better for them. They are focussing on one project at a time u8ntil it gets to a point where it is in mostly maintanence-mode.
So why did they tell us we had to hand out the flyers for DDi that also said you could log on and play with freinds online, at the opening Demo Games?
The answer seems to be because WotC felt admitting openly, not hidden in some post buried in a board, it would hurt sales.
So they just ignored the fact and went on.
Spin it how you will, but the flyers really give the books were alredy ready before they knew. Someone in marketing knew, and I bet they even got a raise.
Lee
So why did they tell us we had to hand out the flyers for DDi that also said you could log on and play with freinds online, at the opening Demo Games?
The answer seems to be because WotC felt admitting openly, not hidden in some post buried in a board, it would hurt sales.
So they just ignored the fact and went on.
Spin it how you will, but the flyers really give the books were alredy ready before they knew. Someone in marketing knew, and I bet they even got a raise.
Lee
I don't recall anyone from WotC telling me or anyone else at my store we had to hand out flyers.
As long as we're "betting" those flyers were also very likely printed up months in advance - and when the packing lists were drawn up they were still included. As someone who deals with the RPGA at large conventions you'd be surprised how often things that are fairly important don't ship, or ship to the wrong place, while we get other stuff we don't need instead.
Likewise, as someone who runs Game Day for the RPGA, it isn't uncommon for flyers with bad/wrong information to be included on flyers. (Wrong dates, for example).
It's entirely possible the boxes were even packed up a couple months in advance of shipping and sitting in a warehouse with all their contents ready-to-go and nobody thought to open them all just to remove a few flyers. Or if they did, that the costs would have been prohibitive.
Yes, WotC made a mistake - I don't think anyone will argue that, however that error doesn't automatically equal malfeasance - no matter how you try to spin it. (See? Anyone can use the term spin! Isn't it fun to make baseless accusations?)
*note - I'm not ACTUALLY accusing you of trying to manipulate facts. You see things how you see them, but hopefully this ironic useage illustrates how (frankly) silly it is to accuse someone of spin?
Say, for the sake of argument, that the books were sent to the printers with the ads 6 months in advance, which I suspect is probably generous towards WotC. That means that 6 months out WotC though the VTT would be at least open beta-ready within half a year.
OK, so things happen and products get delayed. I get that. But at release they must have still thought the VTT would be out soon. Otherwise a forthright and honest company would let it's fans know, "Hey, you know all that hype we've been generating and stuff we've been advertising? Yeah, it's still going to be awhile before chunks of that are realized."
So they either A) honestly believed the VTT and other missing tools would be out within a reasonable time-frame, or B) they knew there would be a greater delay, but knew it would hurt sales to acknowledge it so allowed fans to continue to believe these tools were around the corner.
If A, well it's been a further year since then and we now find out that the VTT has been shelved indefinitely while they pursue other projects, which makes it hard to believe they thought it was close to being finished 18 months ago but still giving them the benefit of the doubt makes DDi - the VTT portion at least - a horribly mismanaged project to the point where it hardly matters if it was intentional.
If B, then no they haven't behaved honestly, and people's scorn is rightly placed.
Long story short, books going to print months in advance of launch isn't much of an excuse and is pretty flimsy cover for not having an advertised VTT a year later.
If A, well it's been a further year since then and we now find out that the VTT has been shelved indefinitely while they pursue other projects, which makes it hard to believe they thought it was close to being finished 18 months ago but still giving them the benefit of the doubt makes DDi - the VTT portion at least - a horribly mismanaged project to the point where it hardly matters if it was intentional.
I believe it. WotC is not a software company. WotC didn't realize that software development is not linear. WotC didn't realize that in software, the hardest bit is the last 10%. In game design, while I have no experience in the matter, I understand that one of the hardest parts can be the fundamental concepts. Once you have that down, things flow well. With software development, you start out with an idea, and then you build a base, then you build more, and it's the last touches that are the tough bit (for instance, the CB doesn't have warforged components still). So I find it completely believable that the WotC management thought it was almost done when it wasn't (and of course, programmers suck at estimating. A bad programmer will estimate it will be done long before it actually is, and a good one will just not give an estimate, especially when it comes to debugging). And once 4e hit, they realized they should reprioritize, did so, and as a result we have what we have.
I believe it. WotC is not a software company. WotC didn't realize that software development is not linear. WotC didn't realize that in software, the hardest bit is the last 10%.
It is already hard, that a company makes the same mistake twice, even worse to see them make the same mistake three times. After mastertools, they should definitely have learned a lesson or two about software development. Add in gleemax, and they should be very careful already. But nothing happened.
Oh, and coppro - a good programmer will give you an estimate - ALWAYS. He just might not give you an exact date, but a timeframe, as it is usually done.
And you're still missing your estimated date by north of two years....and looking like north of three for the full set, after having tried to do some similar stuff twice before.
Oh, and coppro - a good programmer will give you an estimate - ALWAYS. He just might not give you an exact date, but a timeframe, as it is usually done.
That takes an excellent programmer.
So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).
Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!
First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.
I have to agree. The launch and media hype around 4Ed all included the amazing tools and how DnD insider would grant you wonderful access to the new world and it turns out to be a money trap.
WOTC have just gone into cash mode dumping non-profit tools and printing money by pumping out new books every month with half-baked/rehashed classes and powers and dumping quality for quantity.
Well, to be honest, it sounds that you were not around for the ride for the 3E tools. This is well documented if you google E-Tools, Master Tools, Fluid, Code Monkey. Although all of it is 5 years or more old at this point.
The fact is, they went with a vender that did not have alot of experience and it did not come out the way they intended. Most companies would be very careful the next time to make sure it did not happen again.
Again, those of us that were around back then and waited for the planned tools, see parallels into what is going on now. To be honest, I would rather NOT see that happen.
Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.
You forgot to mention they came down hard on anyone who actually managed to create a good character generator and made them look like fools.
Look if you believe they lied. Fine. If you believe they didn't lie, fine.
Argueing over the facts isn't going to change the past, or change what any person thinks. Either you think WoTC is run by morons, or you understand why things happened the way they did.
But it would be nice to finally move away from this subject on the forums. It's a dead horse. Both sides need to drop it.
What's a guy got to do to get a content removed post?
That takes an excellent programmer.
No it doesn't. Its true that in software design/development that projects can and do "slip", but it isn't hard to accurately project the amount of time a project will take to finish. Again, you could adjust your estimate as time goes, but getting relatively in the ballpark does not take an excellent programmer, it takes management, and not even "excellent" management.