D&D Insider

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

maddog0714

Jul 02, 2008 10:36:53		Does anyone know when the "D&D insider" the virtual table top system is coming out?
#2

xenmas

Jul 02, 2008 10:37:53 		I would settle just to have the Character Builder myseld *sigh*
#3

hellmute

Jul 02, 2008 12:11:33 		Current claims and hopes are sometime this year. Other than that nothing is known or has been said.
#4

redwulfe

Jul 02, 2008 14:41:34 		Actually I think they said it would launch with the release of fourth so expect it sometime in a month ago.

Tim
#5

Grazel

Jul 02, 2008 16:37:08 		It's still being worked on.

The D&D Compendium is up in a 'beta' level (some core functionality but not all the features there yet).

We'll probably see the character visualizer/builder/tracker components next with the tabeletop, dungeon builder, and DM tools last.

After it's all out then expect them to announce the final subscription levels and what comes with each level.
#6

Troll_Grappler

Jul 02, 2008 16:40:40
Actually I think they said it would launch with the release of fourth so expect it sometime in a month ago.

Hehe
#7

akumadaimyo

Jul 02, 2008 17:11:34 		I want to start playing around with the creators and such in D&D insider, see what it can do. The graphics suck I'll have to say. I mean a lot of the women characters look like drag queens. Not ALL of them but the few screenshots I've seen the women are ugly. Though perhaps they were made to look that way. Maybe someone got tired of the old sterotype of female PCs always being hotties and female barbarians having bodies that won't quit, boobies that defy gravity and flawless faces. Where is MOOSERA? The ugly as sin Barbarian with Muscles bigger than all the male PCs heads? :-p
#8

bacon-swiss

Jul 02, 2008 20:58:51 		The compendium is completely useless... It really shouldn't even be considered a beta. If the compendium is closest to being finished out of everything else in dnd insider, I'd guess it might be ready in about two years, cause it looks like they just got started. eh... who knows, though. I mean, it's only been a month so far.
#9

xenmas

Jul 03, 2008 10:19:00 		In the mean time. Does anyone know if someone has put together a character sheet I can type characters into? My handwriting sucks.
#10

hellmute

Jul 03, 2008 11:17:22 		Check General Discussion for a sticky about that.
#11

SlabOMeat

Jul 03, 2008 18:50:06 		Shame it's taking so long. The character builder would have been the FIRST thing I would have finished and released...I would kill for an interatcive character builder right now. Writing up a new character with all the powers and bonuses takes forever.
#12

Legendarius

Jul 06, 2008 17:37:13 		I'll second what Slab said - I think the character generator should have been the first application ready - just like a basic builder was available with 3.0 upon release.

L
#13

Grazel

Jul 07, 2008 16:19:21 		True but so far none of them are fully ready. We've just gotten a peak at part of the Compendium so far. I honestly expect the character builder/visualizer to be the first component fully out.
#14

bacon-swiss

Jul 07, 2008 18:20:33 		It'd be nice if they'd answer questions or at least say something like, "the situation is being addressed" if they really don't feel like giving information. Which they don't. At least it'd make people feel like WotC cared. It's really too bad because a lot of people actually bought the source books thinking they could access DnDI and play online with friends. The character creation would be very helpful because the format of creation in the PHB is just about impossible if you've never played before, which I haven't, and probably won't in the future... I kinda feel like I've been eBay scammed.
#15

darkflite

Jul 07, 2008 19:09:43 		I agree, the character builder should have been the first thing to go up.

The 3.0 char gen was an utter joke but at least it helped slam out quick characters and let me get more familiar with the system.

Some word from WotC would be golden, but it looks like we're being kept in the dark. Obviously they have botched it up as bad as the 3.0 - otherwise we'd have a release date.

My best bet is the entire Insider has gone off the rails bigtime.
#16

khamles

Jul 07, 2008 19:49:23 		I'm feeling pretty bait 'n switched myself with insider. if they can't get the thing running, the least they could do is get out of the way and let somebody else do it. I was pretty happy playing 3.5 on fantasygrounds.
http://www.fantasygrounds.com
maybe i'll just shelf the new books and do that some more.
#17

migarfrobert

Jul 09, 2008 17:10:41 		I hope that there is a release of some sort of license to allow independent vendors or open source projects to use the 4th edition material. PC Gen and RPTools (specifically MapTool) have been invaluable for my gaming groups. Even if it's limited to non-revenue generating stuff, I've found those tools to be far superior to any ever produced by Wizards (sorry guys!).
#18

Stirfry90

Jul 12, 2008 9:45:32 		I can't understand how they're in the beta...

Before 4E books even came out they had videos showing their programs, or were those just cleverly coded instances to make them look like they were actually doing something.

I mean come on! The 4E books are like "Come to dndinsider.com and try these amazing programs." and you get there and they're like "Sorry, we've been sitting on our asses for the past few months, we're actually still working on them..."
#19

darkflite

Jul 12, 2008 15:33:47
Before 4E books even came out they had videos showing their programs, or were those just cleverly coded instances to make them look like they were actually doing something.

Lawsuits filed against WotC seem to indicate that those were just crafted cutscenes, sometimes using parts of other companies products even.

http://www.smiteworks.com/press/10062008.html

WotC has changed some art since this was filed.

But I'm sure they'll have something ready by GenCon at least, no matter how effed up it is they will have to put something on the table to show people they haven't given up.
#20

Grazel

Jul 12, 2008 21:51:23 		You're also dealing with software coding which doesn't always go smoothly. There's also the fact that even up until sending the books to the printers things in the rules were changing. There's more going to this but I don't want to get anyone in trouble by talking about things I've heard which I can't verify but suffice it to say I have a friend working on the DDI tools and he didn't start there until a couple weeks before the books hit the shelf.
#21

grogmcgee

Jul 12, 2008 22:17:07 		Frankly, I think they should have outsourced it to a company adapt at making video games, which this pretty much is...

I mean, I know they couldn't have rebuilt the NWN (one) engine - however, something like that could have been done...

The engine that handles the rulesets should be completed before you start trying to implement the rulesets...
#22

grogmcgee

Jul 12, 2008 22:22:46 		[snip dbl post o.O]
#23

LargeGoblin

Jul 12, 2008 23:40:18 		I remember first reading the PHB and seeing the screenshot in the ad on the final page. I was like, "Wow! I gotta check this out right now." It was a major letdown to find "under construction" pages for all features of DDI. I looked hard to find some estimated release date, but I could only find that it would be out at around the same time as the core rulebooks. The feature I want most is the character builder. When can I have my character builder?!
#24

hellmute

Jul 13, 2008 11:08:13 		Sadly I think the character sheet maker or whatever it is called is the least complete. It should have been right behind and no more than a week after the release of the compendium as this ediiton is supposed to be the most intuitive ever, but it still is too complex to make a quick character sheet maker even though over a dozen websites already have fully functiong versions and only have the rules for a month to work with and at least 2 wensites already have all the dragon and dungeon content in them for selection.

Pretty bad when fans can make these things in their spare time when the company can't allocate personnel properly to get it done that has been making the game as a profession for the past 3 years.
#25

Webster

Jul 13, 2008 11:44:52 		Keep in mind a fan sheet doesn't have to work with any other software. DDI is trying to tie everything together.
#26

hellmute

Jul 13, 2008 14:56:16 		Not everyone needs all the other things, which is part of the problem. Some would like to be able to just be able to make charactes with proper calculations and requiremetns as intended.

I would hope everything does not hinge on the RC for the rules because that seems very poor distibution of data to be picked through for any of these problems.

A character sheet maker doesn't NEED any of those other things even though it can save somehow to later use that colleciton of data for other things.

It just needs the output now without any save feature for people to be able to use it. ;)

If it doesn't work write, then why worry if it can save right for the other apps to use that data or not?
#27

WolfStar76

Jul 13, 2008 16:29:56
If it doesn't work write, then why worry if it can save right for the other apps to use that data or not?

Because you want to build that kind of functionality in from the start so that you're not "tacking it on" later which can introduce another subset of problems.
#28

Kentinal

Jul 13, 2008 17:03:06
Because you want to build that kind of functionality in from the start so that you're not "tacking it on" later which can introduce another subset of problems.

The plan is to tack on, if only because of DMG II, PHB II and of course the mags. Oh should I add DMG III and PHB III?

Tacking on is part of the announced plans.
#29

rcuhljr

Jul 13, 2008 18:55:55
Because you want to build that kind of functionality in from the start so that you're not "tacking it on" later which can introduce another subset of problems.

Not really, this is kind of the whole purpose behind properly developing protocols. Whoever they are paying to design this should be perfectly capable of designing both applications to meet their data exchange protocol, it shouldn't make it any harder to publish a stand alone alpha/beta/release deliverable for people to use.

Now unless I'm wrong the flow goes something like Character creator, into visualizer, into DDi, I don't see how it interacting with other software moves it into some new challenge level. Either the applications have some integrated framework into which they all fit, which if that isn't functional yet you've made a huge mistake, or your interacting merely on the data sharing level and probably starting another application with a parameter for the character file to open, which means you can release it stand alone with no extra work with that feature disabled.
#30

WolfStar76

Jul 14, 2008 3:07:42
The plan is to tack on, if only because of DMG II, PHB II and of course the mags. Oh should I add DMG III and PHB III?

Tacking on is part of the announced plans.

Adding data to the database is separate from "tacking on" features.
#31

WolfStar76

Jul 14, 2008 3:11:15
Not really, this is kind of the whole purpose behind properly developing protocols. Whoever they are paying to design this should be perfectly capable of designing both applications to meet their data exchange protocol, it shouldn't make it any harder to publish a stand alone alpha/beta/release deliverable for people to use.

Now unless I'm wrong the flow goes something like Character creator, into visualizer, into DDi, I don't see how it interacting with other software moves it into some new challenge level. Either the applications have some integrated framework into which they all fit, which if that isn't functional yet you've made a huge mistake, or your interacting merely on the data sharing level and probably starting another application with a parameter for the character file to open, which means you can release it stand alone with no extra work with that feature disabled.

You've actually stated what I was trying to say more elegantly/prescisely.

The question was asked "If it doesn't work write, then why worry if it can save right for the other apps to use that data or not?"

My point is, they want to plan for these data exchange features to be in place first and foremost, to save the process (and eventual hassle) of turning what would otherwise be standalone applications into data-sharing applications.

Basically, you want to plan for as many features as you can at the beginning to save "update" time later. They may not need this feature to work perfectly until the other applications and backend bits are in place, but I can understand them wanting to have the framework in place before they launch the application in a Beta format.
#32

Kentinal

Jul 14, 2008 8:01:27
Adding data to the database is separate from "tacking on" features.

I am also including sound effects that might be added later, more map tiles and IIRC WotC_DM did say a few other features were planned to be added that will not in in initial launch.
#33

WolfStar76

Jul 14, 2008 8:45:20
I am also including sound effects that might be added later, more map tiles and IIRC WotC_DM did say a few other features were planned to be added that will not in in initial launch.

Sure, but those are all features that will (so far as I've seen) be tied to the Game Table (I have the impression the original question I was answering was specific to the Character Creator).

That said, however, sound effects, new tiles, and new features (like adding the Z-axis) are features that would stand alone to just the Game Table, so would be a little easier (from my admittedly VERY limited understanding) to bolt on later, as they shouldn't impact the data interactions with the rest of the service.

However, making sure the core functionality of how data is shared back and forth, parsed, read, and utilized is a fairly central component to not one, but ALL the applications. I can see why they'd want to get this core integral part working before handing the software over to testers.
#34

hellmute

Jul 14, 2008 11:19:38
Because you want to build that kind of functionality in from the start so that you're not "tacking it on" later which can introduce another subset of problems.

Doesn't matter since non-subscribers will not be able to save characters to some WotC server, then again that should be done by now meaning that it should be able to be displayed. Set the whole program to no save capability. The problem is the whole suite of tools is probably one stupid program. Which will likely mean when the VTT needs work that the whole suite will fail to function and no other portion will work depending on how the connections to the WotC servers are required.

Those other VTT have server and client or DM and player versions, so DDI also should not just be crippleware for non-subscribers but be an independent set of tools.

The method chosen is not my problem, They could have done it another way and have the character sheet maker out there already. These forums save to a database and the DDI will have to as well.

Might as well make as much as possible NOT connected to the complete package to prevent having more to compile and update.

Character sheet builder could quickly be done with HTML pages and store to a database for those able to store characters. Should even be a standalone app like the DDM Warband Generator.

What really does that whole graphics card requirement have to do with making a character sheet? Why should that bit of the suite NEED any of that processor overhead?

eTools used the .NET framework I think.
Core Rules used internal data.
Warband Generator uses a javascript files with data arrays.

The best looking was the self-contained Core Rules, but still that didn't require the overhead of a VTT,

eTools was pretty dark and hard to read from the screens I have seen.

Warband generator is plain and devoid of much imagery, but then how much do you need for it to function? Like a character sheet you only have data to choose from not anything determined by a picture. DDM minis are only visual representations and things you don't even need to play that game after you download the card in PDF or the Warband Generator.

So as pretty as Core Rules was, it had way too much overhead for the excess graphics.

This again means that the Warband Generator is a prime example of how easily a character sheet creator can by made in HTML and javascript for all platforms and save to a database from there if need be.

No real excuse other than the childish, "I want it all to be one big thing"...

So there is no tacking on for non-subscribers, and when they do become subscribers then the program must be uncrippled to allow for those functions anyway which is "tacking it on".

Adding features later doesn't mean they are an afterthought, but just means that that isn't ready yet.
#35

Grazel

Jul 14, 2008 12:24:33 		Actually with how the character builder works (having seen it in action at the Game Day Event and it's come a long way since then from what I'm told) it already has save functionality, at least to file. It can also print a 4e character sheet. What was mssing then was various more complex building options (weapon proficiencies weren't calculated in for attacks, couldn't take skill or weapon focus since they have subchoices, etc.)

Don't expect all the tools to be put out at the same time, and I suspect the builder will be out first (with or without the visualizer) before the tabletop and other tools.

Also they have done some 'beta testing' of the DDI tools as they've been doing usability studies on them as they get a tool at the point where they feel it could use feedback. From all i've seen they've focused on functionality at a base level first and are holding back UI enhancements until near the end.

Also for things like the character builder they have to decide how to deal with data security since it is using a database of the game rules and they'd rather not have people just sharing that out but at the same time I'm sure they don't want to force people to be online just to make, level, or maintain their character.
#36

starspawn

Jul 14, 2008 16:44:25 		Wait a minute. You mean I just bought the 4e books based upon the ad in the back that said we could join DnD Insider now and DnD Insider doesn't exist and may never exisit?

This makes this product worthless to me. I only got it cause I thought I could get my old college game back together online.

DOHHHH!!!!! This really sucks. I guess I should have known better since the E-tools fiasco that I got burned on but hope springs eternal. No way they are going to screw this up again is there, I thought and I actually believed the answer would be No, they can't possibly screw the gamers over again. I was wrong.

Thanks WotC. You're doing a great job killing DnD!
#37

Grazel

Jul 14, 2008 17:18:57
Wait a minute. You mean I just bought the 4e books based upon the ad in the back that said we could join DnD Insider now and DnD Insider doesn't exist and may never exisit?

This makes this product worthless to me. I only got it cause I thought I could get my old college game back together online.

DOHHHH!!!!! This really sucks. I guess I should have known better since the E-tools fiasco that I got burned on but hope springs eternal. No way they are going to screw this up again is there, I thought and I actually believed the answer would be No, they can't possibly screw the gamers over again. I was wrong.

Thanks WotC. You're doing a great job killing DnD!

Ignore the doomsayers. DDI will be out, it's just been held up. Also at the time the books went to the printer there was still hopes of having at least part of it ready for people to use. So far the compendium is the only part ready for us to use and that's only part of its functionality.

Expect the character builder to be the next part released (as well as more features to the compendium). The tabletop will be the last part out most likely as it is th emost involved component.

We also are getting Dragon and Dungeon for free right now and unlike the old Dragon and Dungeon these have provided some very useful information already (full race writeup for warforged, a peek at the artificer, heroic tier illusion powers for wizards, a bunch of new monsters and magic items, more details on dragonborn).
#38

hellmute

Jul 14, 2008 18:24:55
Also for things like the character builder they have to decide how to deal with data security since it is using a database of the game rules and they'd rather not have people just sharing that out but at the same time I'm sure they don't want to force people to be online just to make, level, or maintain their character.

Does it offer any more information than the Rules Compendium which has been online for people like myself that don't own the books to read and compile thoughts about the material?

I think whatever math it does is not much of a security issue, or else every character sheet in existance would be because with enough skill you can reverse engineer then to learn how to build a character for 4th ediiton, but like the RC it cannot allow you to play the game.

Just look at how open DDM is. The only thing they don't give you for free is the minis.

Rules? Free
Cards? Free
Maps/Tile? Free

You just need some markers to replace the minis and play that game for free.

With DM you can even "save" warbands on the online version with a code/string thing that tells it what data to input. That is all a character builder really needs.

IT would even be more secure to have a webpage that requires connecting to some online source than have the connection methods in the program.

Take PHP which I know a little about.

You have it running and you can't see the actual code. When you need some data a form just calls some PHP that uses
include dbconnect.php;
that grabs the data and passes it to the originating PHP script, and then that script outputs back to HTML so the client never sees what is going on behind the scenes.

Even if the Warband Generator method was used and the data was housed in downloadable HTML program with jsvascripts and such what would it really be that could harm the game?

Someone ight be able to build a character for a game they don't own all the books for so can't play it unless the DM owns the book and is allowing it to be used so the player just bypassed borrowing the book to make the character and can play it when he is able to fully read the book?

How much information is in the CB really? Does it print Power/feat/feature/ability/item cards?

Someone already beat them to that a while back! Heck they even list 712 items in the RC along with some 500 or so powers and what not.

You can't play the game even if you have that because you are missing MOUNDS of information so what is there to protect other that how this data interacts once compiled into a "PC" with the other PCs and parts of the game world?

I would think the less information provided by the CB the easier they could get around not owning the digital rights for D&D.