I wanted to take a couple seconds to highlight the big points. This is the survey that we asked everyone to take a while ago concerning what you wanted to see from D&D Insider. Both subscribers and non-subscribers who took the survey had tools for managing campaigns, tools to customize and print monsters, and tools to customize and print premade adventures as their top three choices.
Based on that information plus the feedback we were recieving from all our other sources, we began working on applications for your campaigns. As the article states, "this includes monsters, encounters, maps, and adventures."
Now I know you want to know all the specific information about when the next tool is coming out and what exactly it will do, but we won't be releasing any of that information until we get closer to launching the application. We'll make sure to post up information in the articles and here in the forums whenever we have any new details to share, but I did want to make it clear that we are working right now to bring you these applications.
Thanks to everyone who took the survey for providing your feedback, and to all the D&D Insider subscribers!
"Game Table"
For me, re-subbing is completely dependent on that.
It sounds like what's being worked on are completely new tools. Can you say if this is the case?
However, I have to pcouncur with the findings. A Campaign organizing tool would be more helpful to me.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making attacks.
Oh yes there are a few extra tools like the compendium which is well done and quite handy but I would like what I as a consumer and long time fan was originally promised.
I was raised that you are only as good as your word and that it should not be given if you can not come through. Wizards its on you, what kind of a company are you. I would appreciate a straight answer...are the other originally promised tools being shelved? I think we deserve at least that much.
I agree that the items requested in the survey would be an excellent addition, but they should be just that and addition. For Wotc to even consider taking on additional projects without coming through with their original ones is in my opinion quite poor form.
I sincerely hope that this is not a case of "oops I can't seem to figure out how to do this, so I'll do that and baffle em with a little bit of BS to top it all off.
Yes I am a pretty disappointed and very frustrated by this whole situation. Please Wotc help return my faith find a cleric for your digital design party and make sure the wisdom and charisma scores are at least 18 and maybe he/she can turn this from becoming another undead promise.
I can understand why WotC has refrained from releasing information on the unreleased tools that were originally promised. I'm sure they did not want to loose more credibility by making statements or projections that would again prove untrue. So, it is better to say nothing until you have something to say that you can be sure of.
But, customers have been asking about the fate of these tools for months, and getting next to no information. To release the results of the survey, and announce the development of a different set of tools and say nothing of the fate of the tools that customers have been anticipating, as if they're suddenly just going to forget about them, is just ridiculous.
I think most of us understand by now that we're not going to get a hard release date, and with good reason. I also think that it is obvious that WotC has been reevaluating its digital initiative strategy, which is only reasonable under the circumstances. But, given what was originally and repeatedly promised, and the amount of time that has passed, I think it is quite reasonable at this point for customers to expect to know whether these tools are even being worked on, and whether WotC still plans to finish them or not. Even an answer of "we'll decide after finishing the campaign tools," would be acceptable to me. I'd just like to know where things stand.
As an aside, while there are already VTTs out there, their support for 4E is limited greatly by the SRD. I can attest that there are very active online play communities for D&D 4E, but players and DMs spend lots of tedious hours manually importing rules materials and building macros that are necessary to play, mainly because the terms of the SRD wont let anyone publish these materials in a form that can be consumed by VTTs. I just got an email from someone in our group today who was manually copying the entire monster manual and reformatting it so that it could be imported into FG II using a parsing tool designed for 4E, which could easily take a full weekend's worth of work. This feat had already been achieved by some other DMs in the same group, but to distribute the MOD files freely would be a blatant copyright violation. If the Game Table isn't going to be completed, it would benefit many of WotC's customers to find a way to provide better support to those using VTTs to play 4E, or atleast allow 3rd parties to provide that support under the terms of the SRD. Offering a way to for 3rd parties a standard way to develop tools that can automatically import characters built with the Character Builder, including the rules text for powers, for instance, would be a great start.
Point taken, Electricbee. You are correct.
I'd like to thank you for responding intelligently and productively to criticism. I'm not sure whether I'm more glad that there are intelligent people here or sad at the fact that this is so rare.
Now that I've got that out, I'd like to give WotC a high five for posting this. It's been a while since we've heard about upcoming product, to the point where I actually sent a message to Greg Leeds (please don't discuss this publicly, I have a feeling where it will go. Feel free to PM). I'm glad to hear that they are communicating with us again. I personally want the DM tools more than anything. The reason why is basically this:
Game Table: Nice application I'm probably going to use, but I really don't need another waste of my time, and I have plenty of fun playing tabletop.
Character Visualizer: Definitely something I'd like to see, but low priority. There are lots of other ways to visualize characters, the least of them being the i-word.
Dungeon Builder: I need this. A good dungeon manager would make me feel a lot more comfortable writing adventures, which would be good because I currently have more than a bit of trouble doing so. Being able to visualize my ideas for the whole dungeon would go a long way.
So while I'd like to see all three, I'm happy with the decision so far and look forward to getting my grubby hands on another application!
Unfortunate for me the Game Table ranked so low.
I bought all the initial books under the assumption I would be playing 4E online. Close to a year later and my initial investment is still not worth what I paid.
Not beating a dead horse (The body has been pulverized by now). However, there are many who hope some day the Game Table will make an appearance.
(Yes, I could buy some other software to play online. However, I want what was shown. I am willing to pay and wait patiently.)
They are the stepping stones to a really meaningful Game Table.
If you just want to play online there are tools available to do that already just fine. They are just not necassarily all nicely intergrated like the Game Table should be if WotC does it right.
I agree with Ted and KM, though I wouldn't go so far as to call anyone a liar.
I think classifying a person or company as dishonest has a very simple metric:
If they say one thing, and do another.
For instance, if a company says, "We have this GREAT product we're building for you! It will be available soon!"
...and it isn't, and furthermore, every indication points that it will NEVER be available, it's kind of hard to say that you can trust everything this company says. Whether you call it "lying", or dishonesty, or misleading, or not delivering, or lack of follow-through, or even some benign excuse like "unforeseen circumstances", the proven track record for such a company is damaged.
And those who feel misled are going to be angry. When 3.0 came out, I took a "wait and see" approach. When 3.5 came out, I took a "wait and see" approach.
When 4.0 came out, I had the impression it was being released WITH the online tools to supplement, and I jumped in whole-heartedly based on the strength of that advertising for the Character Builder, the Visualizer, and the Game Table. In June of 2008, I was checking wizards.com daily for the software mentioned in my player's handbook and DMG as being available.
Now I have a book that has a picture of the Character Visualizer, advertising as a direct supplement to the PHB (much as the DMG and MM are) that I can create my character's portrait, see what he looks like in different armor, and so forth.
If "liar" is too strong a word, can anyone truly claim that this page in my core rulebook PHB is an accurate representation of the truth?
Anyway, it's good to see that they are showing that there indeed was a reason they made us take that survey, and, it appears, we will be getting the apps that they've been bandying about all this time. Not only that, but they've come up with some new ideas that were added to the survey, and lo and behold, we all (okay, a majority of us) wanted them first.
I'm happy to see something that at this point even suggests we'll get what we want. All of these tools are only meant to be in addition to what happens on the tabletop, not the sole reason you play the tabletop game.
They put up a news article and an ampersand a month before the release telling members that the applications would not be ready at the release of 4th edition.
Note that Wizards *did* say that not all of the DDI tools would be ready upon the launch of DDI:
They put up a news article and an ampersand a month before the release telling members that the applications would not be ready at the release of 4th edition.
Niether of which help if you dont read ampersand or check the boards. It was advertised in the back of the PHB. Which is sololy what sold me on it. After seeing it, I logged into DDi and saw great advertisements for the Game Table, etc. Immediately jumped to Youtube and saw impressive videos.
Thats what got me to purchase. Had they not printed it in the PHB, I would not have purchased. And definitely don't think I should have dug back a month to find the info that it would not be released.
Niether of which help if you dont read ampersand or check the boards. It was advertised in the back of the PHB. Which is sololy what sold me on it. After seeing it, I logged into DDi and saw great advertisements for the Game Table, etc. Immediately jumped to Youtube and saw impressive videos.
Thats what got me to purchase. Had they not printed it in the PHB, I would not have purchased. And definitely don't think I should have dug back a month to find the info that it would not be released.
It ddn't really require all THAT much digging. You make it sound as though it was a deleted scene from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark".
It ddn't really require all THAT much digging. You make it sound as though it was a deleted scene from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark".
Lets see 2 very vague articles that hinted that the suite might be a little behind schedule Vs Numerous you tube videos several web advertisements that were still around after the game had been released I might add.Games day fliers put out after said announcements with no mention of any delay. Many retailers not even aware of the delay. Advertisements in the books. there was a massive advertising push to sell people on this online initiative. It really can't be denied that it boosted the sales of physical books it can only be argued how much effect it had. People are understandably frustrated and concerned that they were misled and this article does not help. It basically tells people that bought in with the intent of online play that the tools they need and invested in the books to use is being pushed back Delayed indefinitely basically gone. With the rate content has gone up were looking at at least a 2 year wait and that's being generous. I really have little doubt that the Game table Will never be released at this point. What I see here basically is forget about those programs you didn't want them in the first place.
Lets see 2 very vague articles that hinted that the suite might be a little behind schedule Vs Numerous you tube videos several web advertisements that were still around after the game had been released I might add.
From the insider article:
[indent]The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.[/indent]
From the Ampersand article
[indent]D&D Insider’s free beta period coincides with the launch of 4th Edition. You get to try out the first digital components without paying the subscription fees, and you can provide feedback to help us improve your experience. The initial rollout includes Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, and the D&D Rules Compendium. This powerful online resource for players and Dungeon Masters alike will be updated with each new D&D release (whether it’s an analog game product or a digital magazine), making it the place to go in order to find what you need, when you need it.
As other components become available, including client-based applications such as the D&D Character Builder and the D&D Game Table, they will be added to the mix. I’ll talk more about these digital offerings in my next column.[/indent]
That seems to me to be pretty clear that they won't be available upon release.
Many retailers not even aware of the delay.
My FLGS wasn't even aware that the release dates had been changed. That is more a problem of the retailer not being up-to-speed on what its going on.
Advertisements in the books.
As mentioned above, the books go to print months before they are actually released for sale. The attitude at WotC when they sent the books to print was undoubtedly "Yes, the tools will be ready for launch".
Give DMs better tools to manage and the quality of games people participate in should go up. So I'm all for helping the painter bring together a masterpiece.
My 2 cents...
I would love to see the visualizer completed. Someone had mentioned that it would be easier to foster a connection with a character using that, and I agree.
I will not be shocked to see the VTT dropped, but I'd like to hear about it sooner than later and so would my groups. I'd still like to see it go somewhere though.
All things said, thank you for the update. We'll see you soon hopefully for some more information.
That is more a problem of the retailer not being up-to-speed on what its going on.
I reserve the right to disagree, but it isn't a factual debate but one of opinion.
I honestly think that WotC should have said something or sent out some sort of message telling the FLGS' this information. It wasn't their product to sell, but it DID have an effect on their business that day (especially in the area I was at) because these two products at least seemed to be very wound up in each other at first glance and second glance.
That is just my opinion though. It is what it is.
I reserve the right to disagree, but it isn't a factual debate but one of opinion.
I honestly think that WotC should have said something or sent out some sort of message telling the FLGS' this information. It wasn't their product to sell, but it DID have an effect on their business that day (especially in the area I was at) because these two products at least seemed to be very wound up in each other at first glance and second glance.
That is just my opinion though. It is what it is.
That is entirely probably, and if my post above sounded like I was making a "this is the way that it was" statement, I apologize, it wasn't my intent. Could WotC have done more?? Yes. Had they started reaching the point of diminishing returns on letting people know?? I think that they had.
One other possibility that just popped into my head. If WotC had sent something out to all the stores (or as many as they could reach, anyways) to let them know that DDI wouldn't be available, how much of a hit would that have been to the stores who were expecting a large influx of sales. Now I may be imparting a level of altruism on WOtC that isn't true, but it is a thought.
They put it out there in hard to find places and could have done a much better job of letting the customer base know what was going on. It was easier finding out what happened to Jimmy Hoffa then what was going on with DDi on launch day. I check the main DnD page and fourms every day. I found NOTHING posted on the delay all the times I looked. But other peopel says it was there.
We are still waiting for word one way or the other if WOTC is still planning to go ahead with the character viewer, dungeon builder, and VTT.
That is entirely probably, and if my post above sounded like I was making a "this is the way that it was" statement, I apologize, it wasn't my intent.
Oh. You didn't. Don't worry, I just thought I'd toss that out there to state that it is just a difference of opinion and not one of fact whatsoever. :D
Could WotC have done more?? Yes. Had they started reaching the point of diminishing returns on letting people know?? I think that they had.
This is a good point. But then we go into company ethics and blah-blah-blah... I'd rather stay out of that war-zone. I think you would too.
One other possibility that just popped into my head. If WotC had sent something out to all the stores (or as many as they could reach, anyways) to let them know that DDI wouldn't be available, how much of a hit would that have been to the stores who were expecting a large influx of sales. Now I may be imparting a level of altruism on WOtC that isn't true, but it is a thought.
Another valid point. This is entirely possible. Even so... we venture into the line of "maybe they-" or "what if they-". Too many things unknown there. But you bring up some good points.
Long and short, we just might never know... oh well...
BRING ON THE NEWS!!!! :P
The recent editorial by Chris Youngs asked the question about what to do with all your character ideas? The answer to me is simple, play more! The problem is getting my friends all together to do just that. We've been anticipating the gaming table to provide an additional outlet to play the game we love when we can't meet at one place. The gaming table benefits the entire group. Improved monster design might assist me in designing the games, but it won't help with the core problem. We just want to play more.
Here's a nudge. If we don't play more, we won't try more and more options since we can't get to them all. That translates into fewer books purchased. If we had two games a week (or more), it's highly likely they'd be in different campaigns, and probably in different settings. As it is, we're content with the settings already available and have no intention on expanding. More play time would encourage more expansion.
BRING ON THE NEWS!!!! :P
I can't trust anything WOTC says with anything to do with DDi. First they say all these great tools will be out for launch day. Launch day comes and goes and WOTC says NOTHING for two months. Then they tell us that they are going to put out the tools one at a time. They have only put out one of the 4 main tools they have promised in almost a year since 4th ed came out. Thats 25% done. They still have no mention of the progress of the other tools since December, almost 5 months ago. Now they say the survey results show people want a campaign manager. With a 25% track record can anyone expect WOTC to put it out, or the other promised tools out, in a timely manner? Why should we trust anything WOTC has said to the customers with all the misleading they have done with DDi?
We are still waiting for word one way or the other if WOTC is still planning to go ahead with the character viewer, dungeon builder, and VTT.
Yeah, as far as I recall, we have seen screenshots and even videos of these products - I even read in a developer diary that the game table worked but it was buggy.
Now at this point, the fans are rabid - why not release these 'BETA' tools as is where is with a heavy disclaimer that they are beta - as an open beta for DDi subscribers? We would be able to give more bug feedback and have a look at what was developed - even if these tools have been shelved it would be a great show of good faith from WoTC.
Most of us don't care if the tools are incomplete or buggy - as long as we can have a play with them.
And it would be better than the standard company line of 'nothing to see here'.
It ddn't really require all THAT much digging. You make it sound as though it was a deleted scene from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark".
It did. Really?
I didn't think so. As I said, I do not read ampersand and do not come to the site. The only reason I did was to find out info about DDi and particularly the Game Table. Then I made my purchase.
I do feel for those at WOTC who have had to deal with the fallout. And understand that they are running a business. So they are targeting what will make them money.
But wanted to put my .02$ in that there are MANY out there who DO NOT visit the site. And got burned initially by purchasing a game they cannot play
the way they wanted. Or was told they would be able to.
From the insider article:
[indent]The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.[/indent]
From the Ampersand article
[indent]D&D Insider’s free beta period coincides with the launch of 4th Edition. You get to try out the first digital components without paying the subscription fees, and you can provide feedback to help us improve your experience. The initial rollout includes Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, and the D&D Rules Compendium. This powerful online resource for players and Dungeon Masters alike will be updated with each new D&D release (whether it’s an analog game product or a digital magazine), making it the place to go in order to find what you need, when you need it.
As other components become available, including client-based applications such as the D&D Character Builder and the D&D Game Table, they will be added to the mix. I’ll talk more about these digital offerings in my next column.[/indent]
That seems to me to be pretty clear that they won't be available upon release.
My FLGS wasn't even aware that the release dates had been changed. That is more a problem of the retailer not being up-to-speed on what its going on.
As mentioned above, the books go to print months before they are actually released for sale. The attitude at WotC when they sent the books to print was undoubtedly "Yes, the tools will be ready for launch".
All things I wish I had known before I laid down my hard earned cash. I really didn't think I needed to research WOTC as a company, look through their website and all their columns before making the purchase.
Its good to see they have started communicating with the community again. The types of tools they are looking to produce are exactly the kind of tools I would love to have. I hope that Campaign Building and Dungeon building tools are actual programs like the Character Builder and not reliant on web access like the bonus tools (even though I do love the simplicity of the encounter builder).
Give DMs better tools to manage and the quality of games people participate in should go up. So I'm all for helping the painter bring together a masterpiece.
Agreed! Any communication and news is good. (Even if it was the dreaded We've axed the Game Table new)
The quality of the character builder is TOP NOTCH. I purchased a DDi subscription, and I cannot even play the game! Just because of the Character Builder. You have to give KUDOS to all their hard work.
And a big thank you for the news.
Agreed! Any communication and news is good. (Even if it was the dreaded We've axed the Game Table new)
The quality of the character builder is TOP NOTCH. I purchased a DDi subscription, and I cannot even play the game! Just because of the Character Builder. You have to give KUDOS to all their hard work.
And a big thank you for the news.
I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you are claiming that you purchased the books solely to play online with the tabletop.
Have you played any 4th edition games at all? If you are tying your sole enjoyment of the game based on the tabletop then there is nothing anyone can say or do that will help you.
There is no need to continue this discussion for page upon page. You have stated your complaint. It doesnt need to go any further than this.
Agreed! Any communication and news is good. (Even if it was the dreaded We've axed the Game Table new)
The quality of the character builder is TOP NOTCH. I purchased a DDi subscription, and I cannot even play the game! Just because of the Character Builder. You have to give KUDOS to all their hard work.
And a big thank you for the news.
Why can you not play the game? Are you telling us that in a city as large as Atlanta that you can not find a gaming session?
I can't trust anything WOTC says with anything to do with DDi.
I think this is probably the worst result of this whole mess - customers stop trusting the company. I am in complete agreement with KM. I enjoy the parts of DDI I use - the magazines are usually good, the character builder is superb. But I simply don't trust them to work to their plan anymore. Their position on the tools is "they'll be ready when they're ready," and mine is "I'll believe it when I see it."
This isn't to say they're a terrible company - I will continue to purchase books from them. Whether I persist with DDI remains to be seen, but it's likely for the near future. It's just sad that there are any customers who say "you know what? I don't trust what they say anymore."
Why can you not play the game? Are you telling us that in a city as large as Atlanta that you can not find a gaming session?
I am no longer in Atlanta. And due injuries received a year ago I cannot leave my house. I by no means would I invite strangers into my home (or subject them to my indignities)
I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you are claiming that you purchased the books solely to play online with the tabletop.
Have you played any 4th edition games at all? If you are tying your sole enjoyment of the game based on the tabletop then there is nothing anyone can say or do that will help you.
There is no need to continue this discussion for page upon page. You have stated your complaint. It doesnt need to go any further than this.
Thank you for your input.
The character visualizer while nice, was not a high priority with me, same with the game table.
Bel
I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that you are claiming that you purchased the books solely to play online with the tabletop.
Have you played any 4th edition games at all? If you are tying your sole enjoyment of the game based on the tabletop then there is nothing anyone can say or do that will help you.
There is no need to continue this discussion for page upon page. You have stated your complaint. It doesnt need to go any further than this.
Double post, sorry
Then taking it all back AFTER the fact.
I think there is a phrase for this ... false something or other ... but never mind that! Look over there! Something shiney!
But no. I am sure WOTC is an angelic entity that would never cheat its loyal customers and will live up to the expectations that it promised everyone.
Sounds like WOTC is just taking everyone cash and then promptly ignoring what the nice paying folks want after advertising all that great stuff.
Then taking it all back AFTER the fact.
I think there is a phrase for this ... false something or other ... but never mind that! Look over there! Something shiney!
But no. I am sure WOTC is an angelic entity that would never cheat its loyal customers and will live up to the expectations that it promised everyone.
So. . . WotC charges half their original stated rate (due to less software being available).
WotC then takes the time to find out what people (paying customers, and people who might be enticed to become paying customers) want as the next feature.
WotC then starts working on the most popular requested feature.
In light of WotC responding to customer feedback, you see a bald-faced moneygrab? Really?
If I may be so bold - I get that you're upset they're not (declared to be) working on the feature you want the most (I'm going to assume that's the Game Table). But just because the feature YOU want most isn't the one that the was the most popular doesn't make WotC/DDI a scam.
If I may be so bold - I get that you're upset they're not (declared to be) working on the feature you want the most (I'm going to assume that's the Game Table). But just because the feature YOU want most isn't the one that the was the most popular doesn't make WotC/DDI a scam.
But is it a scam when WOTC does not bring out any of the other orginal tools that were promised and not out yet? Is it a scam when WOTC is still saying nothing about those tools? Is it a scam to have that WOTC promised those tools were going to be out on launch day and WOTC did very little to let most people know that?
But is it a scam when WOTC does not bring out any of the other orginal tools that were promised and not out yet? Is it a scam when WOTC is still saying nothing about those tools? Is it a scam to have that WOTC promised those tools were going to be out on launch day and WOTC did very little to let most people know that?
The degree to which WotC informed people that the plans have changed varies based on opinion. I feel they did an *almost* sufficient job. Well enough, in fact, that I'm hard pressed to this what they could have done better that would have had a major effect.
WotC being silent on the current plans is not a scam. It's dissappointing, certainly - but I fail to see how it's somehow harming anyone other than themselves to be silent.
It's not a scam that the tools are not out yet. As above it's dissapointing, but who besides WotC does it harm?
Now, if they were charging full price, and kept telling us "Oh, Game Table? Yeah, you'll have that next month" and next month never came? THAT would be a scam.
I feel they did an *almost* sufficient job. Well enough, in fact, that I'm hard pressed to this what they could have done better that would have had a major effect.
I can think of something they could have done. WOTC could have put a HUGE BANNER ON THE MAIN PAGE saying that DDi would not be ready at launch, and a link to the related stories. Someone from WOTC should have made sure the banner stayed up on the main page until a month after launch. WOTC could have put out press relases to the game distributiors to get to the game stores. But they did'nt. Because they knew it would effect sales.
Instead, WOTC put the info in hard to find topics in the messageboards and had a tiny story about ti on the news stories a month before 4th ed relase. So that by the time lanch day came around, that news story was hard to find.
Not a scam there.
Its over, let it die like a vampire in the sun.
This
So. . . WotC charges half their original stated rate (due to less software being available).
WotC then takes the time to find out what people (paying customers, and people who might be enticed to become paying customers) want as the next feature.
WotC then starts working on the most popular requested feature.
In light of WotC responding to customer feedback, you see a bald-faced moneygrab? Really?
If I may be so bold - I get that you're upset they're not (declared to be) working on the feature you want the most (I'm going to assume that's the Game Table). But just because the feature YOU want most isn't the one that the was the most popular doesn't make WotC/DDI a scam.
Honestly I knew where the survey was going when they put it out lets put out a bunch of things that we didn't advertise to see if we can do something easier and tell them that's what they wanted. I saw this and made it my point to not follow the bait.
What happened here is that WoTC made a commitment on many occasions to develop these tools they used it to bolster product sales. It did its job it is no longer needed they have probably decided it is cost prohibitive or whatever, don't care so they're luring us away from that with a carrot. I don't really even care about the game table so much anymore I care about being treated like an idiot. If your not going to make it fine say so. People were lured in with lobster yummy now they're feeding us crab legs also yummy but NOT FRIKIN LOBSTER!! They're only charging for the Crab legs and that's great had I came for Crab legs I'd be freakin ecstatic about that. The sign on the door said Game Table that's why people paid the cover charge. sure they all knew that game table would cost more but they wanted it, and the guy at the door didn't mention they were out of game table. There was an announcement on the radio but it was only ran a few times and a lot of us you know listen to CD's instead.
I just want an honest answer to are we getting Lobster even if I know the answer is no. I'm awful hungry and those crab legs do look delicious but I'd like to eat my crab legs at the big boy table you know.
Honestly I knew where the survey was going when they put it out lets put out a bunch of things that we didn't advertise to see if we can do something easier and tell them that's what they wanted. I saw this and made it my point to not follow the bait.
We all should remember the survey got very short if the person did not give the correct answers.
In someways worst then a push poll (which sets a premises that guides an answer) in that if you did not agree you did not even get asked more questions.
Polling at its best is often subjective, however what WotC put out was something along the lines if you do not answer they way we hope your opinion does not matter at all. Even WotC admitted errors in the game path of the poll and said they would do better then. Now we get the response of a "valid" sample" ?
We all should remember the survey got very short if the person did not give the correct answers.
In someways worst then a push poll (which sets a premises that guides an answer) in that if you did not agree you did not even get asked more questions.
Polling at its best is often subjective, however what WotC put out was something along the lines if you do not answer they way we hope your opinion does not matter at all. Even WotC admitted errors in the game path of the poll and said they would do better then. Now we get the response of a "valid" sample" ?
As I recall those questions boiled down to the person being polled having to answer that they play, or at least have an interest in 4th Edition.
I fail to see how that makes the sample invalid.
WotC posted that they'd consider opening up the paths next time to get a broader selection pool, but 4,000 responses is still a valid selection - no matter how many airquotes you use.
Personally, I wouldn't want the results of someone who only plays (hypotehtical example) 2nd Edition and ONLY 2nd Ed involved in the poll - at least not at this (apparently) imporant decision-influencing juncture. As these are 4E-centric products, people who aren't interested in 4E don't need to be included.
I would support a future poll that DOES include those people - because now that a path is set, such a poll could be used to see what initiatives might bring non-4E'ers into the fold.
For now, however, they need to please the core audience. The existing 4E playerbase.
I find that makes the online poll . . "qualifier" a perfectly valid choice for their needs at this time.
The danger right now is that they appear to be going to make a new road, rather than work on the 3 roads they have started already. This leads to the possibility of us not getting any more roads at all, when they realise that this new road is to ambitous a project as well.
Instead of them using the survey data to prioritise the roads they were working on (Game Table, Dungeon Builder, Character Visualiser) they are now talking about a new road (Campaign Manager).
I can easily see that the priority order is:
1st: Dungeon Builder (Including Encounter Builder, and Monster/Trap/Environment Hazzard Builder, Adventure Editing/Formating)
2nd: Character Visualiser
3rd: Game Table (Including Campaign Management Tools: Initiative Tracker, NPC Tracker, Custom Content Manager, Interconnection of all other tools.)
No need for a new path, just make sure you put the right features into the chosen path from the 3 you already started.
As mentioned above, the books go to print months before they are actually released for sale. The attitude at WotC when they sent the books to print was undoubtedly "Yes, the tools will be ready for launch".
That's quite an admirable go-getter John Galt and Nike way of approaching things:
JUST DO IT, GET IT DONE. (Git'R'Done if you prefer.) And above all, keep your word.
...what happened?
It's a year later, and the most disturbing thing about this survey is that now WOTC thinks they might finally have a handle on what they might want to develope.
In most of our worlds, that kind of backwards progress would get us fired or dismissed.
This is like a band saying, "Hey, we've got ideas for a few songs!" a year after they had announced being in the studio.
How can WOTC need a survey to decide whether to build software they advertised in myriad banners and videos?
How can WOTC need a survey to decide whether to build software they advertised in myriad banners and videos?
The survey wasn't about WotC determining what they want to develop. It was about WotC determining what we, the subscribers to DDI, want WotC to develop. And based on the survey, more than a few people would rather WotC work on things *other* than the Game Table right now.
Now most companies, when such a high percentage of their paying customers say "do X instead", see doing X as a good idea.
The survey wasn't about WotC determining what they want to develop. It was about WotC determining what we, the subscribers to DDI, want WotC to develop. And based on the survey, more than a few people would rather WotC work on things *other* than the Game Table right now.
Now most companies, when such a high percentage of their paying customers say "do X instead", see doing X as a good idea.
IIRC the survey did not say things like "what would you like to have come out FIRST?". Just questions like "what tools would you like to see for DnD?"
WOTC was looking for an excuse to stop working on the tools the orginaly promised by putting out this survey. WOTC has been silent on the tools the promised but are not out yet. Has anyone from WOTC seen the pages of "where is the the other tools" posts?
That speaks more then some survey, IMO.
IIRC the survey did not say things like "what would you like to have come out FIRST?". Just questions like "what tools would you like to see for DnD?"
And when almost 90% of the respondents say "we want campaign management tools" and only 55% say "we want the game table", then it is usually a pretty smart business move to push back the game table for campaign management tools.
WOTC was looking for an excuse to stop working on the tools the orginaly promised by putting out this survey.
That is one way of looking at it. Occam's razor also says that when they ask "which one do you like to see WotC do", their purpose is in determining what people would like to see them do.
The survey wasn't about WotC determining what they want to develop. It was about WotC determining what we, the subscribers to DDI, want WotC to develop. And based on the survey, more than a few people would rather WotC work on things *other* than the Game Table right now.
Now most companies, when such a high percentage of their paying customers say "do X instead", see doing X as a good idea.
So, when do you think the PDFs will be back on sale?
When do you think they'll start even acknowledging questions about such matters as printing permission for Dungeon and Dragon at copy shops, or printer friendly versions of the same? How about the compiled versions of the mags which they promised and so far have failed to deliver? The sale of the individual magazines to non-subscribers?
The only time WotC seems to listen to paying customers seems to be when it matches what they have already decided to do. If it doesn't, tough on the customers, which is why I'm now an ex-customer instead of a regular purchaser of their products in PDF.
IIRC the survey did not say things like "what would you like to have come out FIRST?". Just questions like "what tools would you like to see for DnD?"
WOTC was looking for an excuse to stop working on the tools the orginaly promised by putting out this survey. WOTC has been silent on the tools the promised but are not out yet. Has anyone from WOTC seen the pages of "where is the the other tools" posts?
That speaks more then some survey, IMO.
While it is nice that they did the survey, I agree with the above. One thing that you should never do is change your stide midway through, and they have done it multiple times.
Get on a project and do it. It may never come out or it may never be finished becuase of whatever reason, but you don't shelve it to work on something else and then go back to it 6 months or a year later. That is poor business.
You also don't show a product 1 year ago, and then put up a survey and say, look, people wanted x to come out first, so that is what we are going to do. What if that is what they did with 4th edition itself? They delayed it and then put up a survey and the survey results where that 80% of the people wanted a Tranformers RPG instead of a product that was already announced (maybe becuase they assumed the original was coming out already?)? What would people think about it then?
The time of giving Wizards a break in this software stuff has passed. We have been giving them a break on this stuff for 2 editions already. Enough is enough!
Let's Revolt!!!!!!!! Roaaaarrrr.
I'm going to ask you to cut this out. I'm really kind of surprised that you haven't been addressed already. Accusing someone else of trolling (as you have done) isn't a particularly nice thing to do and I'm pretty sure is against the code of conduct for the forums. Not only that, (and I know I run the risk here) but it seems to be what you're doing.
Please cut it out and give everyone else a break. If you have something positive to contribute to the conversation please do so, but leave that crap at the door.
Thanks
Hey, all we can do is wait at this point... (again)
That is just the way it is. As much as we had to deal with the wall of force that WotC has thrown up, we're just going to have to keep dealing. All I can tell you guys is to give it a while longer. With the 1 year coming up, I think we'll see something.
...I hope we'll see something.
That is one way of looking at it. Occam's razor also says that when they ask "which one do you like to see WotC do", their purpose is in determining what people would like to see them do.
So, we're still waiting for them to ask, "Would you like WOTC to keep publishing selling in .pdf format?" Since Occam's razor suggests WOTC cares what we want.
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that I believe all the WOTC PR, that I believe they're on the verge of release awesome tools which will transform my current campaign, and improve the way the game is played worldwide. Let's suppose I believe WOTC has my best interests at heart, and is in the final stages of development of products well worth the money.
Well, that's terrific. We're back where we were a year ago.
Is our frustration really so hard to understand?
What we be most refreshing is not a survey, not announcements of "new" products (when the "old" products aren't even finished!), not promises at all. What would be most refreshing is for a spokesperson from WOTC to say,
"You know what? We screwed up. We promised to deliver a product that you still don't have. It's our fault. We accept responsibility. Now let us re-establish trust by trying to follow-through by doing what we say we'll do."
I ask you, WOTC, and the community representative apologists who defend them: Who is John Galt?
The survey wasn't about WotC determining what they want to develop.
Good. Then the products they already developed based on their decisions pre-2008 will be available...when?
So, we're still waiting for them to ask, "Would you like WOTC to keep publishing selling in .pdf format?" Since Occam's razor suggests WOTC cares what we want.
That is a silly question to ask, as WotC has stated, in numerous interviews, that they do not plan on returning to selling pdfs.
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that I believe all the WOTC PR, that I believe they're on the verge of release awesome tools which will transform my current campaign, and improve the way the game is played worldwide. Let's suppose I believe WOTC has my best interests at heart, and is in the final stages of development of products well worth the money.
Well, that's terrific. We're back where we were a year ago.
Is our frustration really so hard to understand?
Have I *ever* said that you guys don't deserve to be frustrated? I have been pretty clear in saying that I understand why people are frustrated.
"You know what? We screwed up. We promised to deliver a product that you still don't have. It's our fault. We accept responsibility. Now let us re-establish trust by trying to follow-through by doing what we say we'll do."
They have. Numerous times in podcasts and various postings.
In January's Ampersand, for example:
[indent]We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had. We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore.
I have also heard them, in podcasts, say the same thing.
I ask you, WOTC, and the community representative apologists who defend them: Who is John Galt?
http://tinyurl.com/csyykv
I ask you, WOTC, and the community representative apologists who defend them: Who is John Galt?
The literal answer to your question is, since the architects of our hobby are both now dead, there is no 'John Galt'. Sorry to disappoint.
The figurative response to you is that, not only you, but many of the responders here are feigning desperation to the edge of revolt, as if to say, "I didn't get what I want, so we're going to overthrow WOTC."
The only thing I can say at that point is "HU-WHAT!?"
"You know what? We screwed up. We promised to deliver a product that you still don't have. It's our fault. We accept responsibility. Now let us re-establish trust by trying to follow-through by doing what we say we'll do."
So, WOTC decides to drop the character viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT after they said many times they would be coming out.
Sounds like a great move to re-establish trust to me.
So, WOTC decides to drop the character viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT after they said many times they would be coming out.
Sounds like a great move to re-establish trust to me.
Work/Real life has been pretty busy over the past couple of days, so I must have missed the post where WotC has said that they would be dropping those projects.
Could you provide me a link to it??
Work/Real life has been pretty busy over the past couple of days, so I must have missed the post where WotC has said that they would be dropping those projects.
Could you provide me a link to it??
With the news that they are working on a campaign manager now. After the fact WOTC said that they would work on, one at a time, and put out as they got done the character maker, character viewer, dungeon maker and VTT. Now all of a sudden they are going back on there word and working on the campaign manager.
You just need to read between the lines. So all of a sudden they are not working on the other tools as promised.
S'wat I thought.
Ahhh.
S'wat I thought.
How else can you take thier words, short of assuming they are fibbing somewhere. They have said they are working on 'one tool at a time'. They have said that they have begun work on a 'campaign manager'. Taking them at their word on both of those things means that they are working on the campaign manager and ONLY the campaign manager. Which means they are NOT working on the VTT et al.
ANd given their track record so far, I see no reason to suppose we will see this 'campaign manager' any time soon. Which means the other tools are at the very least dropped for the forseeable future.
What we've heard was:1. "We're stepping back and reevaluating what we're going to do next."
2. "Here's a survey; we'd like to know what you'd like to see next."
3. "Here are the results of that survey. These 'campaign tools' are what you'd like to see next, so we'll work on that."
What should we infer? I'm trying to be charitable - which is sometimes hard with WotC - but my guess is that the team's priority has been changed, and GameTable and the rest are on the back burner (perhaps getting messed with here and there). Canceled? Probably not, unless the money folks decided it would be throwing good money after bad. But shelved? Yeah, I'm guessing.
What they probably did in between the completion of the survey/compilation of the results and them announcing the results is to take a look at how difficult it would be to program a campaign manager. Could they get it out quickly, and in a shape comparable in quality to the Character Builder while still not significantly (for a particular definition of significant) delaying the release of the GT and the Visualizer?
Apparantly, the answer was yes.
To each his own, of course - we'll find out sooner or later whether either of us were correct.
Wizards sees DDi as a service.
A lot of people see DDi as a collection of products.
This is why there is a subscription model. Wizards views DDi as a constantly-updated and constantly-improved service that includes two magazines, a database of D&D rules, and a character creator. These are, in fact, being constantly updated and improved, and are good value. I don't really think I've heard anyone seriously say that the services currently offered are bad value.
The other applications are just extensions to the existing service, and so are a lower priority than making the existing applications work. Wizards will add them as they work on them, and they (thankfully!) don't seem concerned with rushing shabby products out just so they can. Think of the Builder - there were a lot of problems originally, but the beta was pretty stable and was very usable, and it's improved a lot since then.
You may not agree with this approach to DDi, but that is simply the way Wizards sees it.
(it's also worth pointing out before someone challenges me on proof or somesuch that I do in fact know this to be the case; PM me if you really care about it)
I see logic in releasing this Campaign Manager, if they can actually deliver, as the VTT had a portion of said ingredients already incorporated into it. These functions were most likely the reasons for a great portion of the bugs with the VTT...
As for the character visualizer, while I understand that players want to be able to see the character that the envisioned upon creation. They want their own set of tools to use on DDi, but thy fail to realize that the Character Generator was created for the players even if the DMs had to buy the subscription in order for the players to use it. So technically it should be the DMs turn to have an application of their own...
Man if only I had a penny for every time I saw someone crying that someone who works for WotC should come out and say something about the tools that they promised to the world, good or bad...
It's not going to happen! I have come to terms with this plain and simple truth. The most that is actually going to happen is that some WotC paladin will do everything they can to keep us bloodhounds off the scent of our quarry...
That is a silly question to ask, as WotC has stated, in numerous interviews, that they do not plan on returning to selling pdfs.
I wasn't asking the question, I was making a point.
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Rhetoric
they do not plan on returning to selling pdfs.
Ergo they will never ask about it in a survey, ergo they don't care what customers want.
Ergo I have little faith that this survey result posted here on this thread matters one iota in terms of customer wishes. And if ever I thought I was wrong on that point, all I needed to do was peruse the thousands of disappointed customer postings here asking two simple questions:
1. Where's the Character Visualizer?
2. Where's the Virtual Game Table?
Those two simple questions, from WOTC's silence, there are two simple answers.
1. They don't know and
2. They don't care.
(What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?)
Have I *ever* said that you guys don't deserve to be frustrated? I have been pretty clear in saying that I understand why people are frustrated.
Mudbunny, the point I'm going to make here is subjective. It cannot be proven objectively, so I want to go on the record as saying this is my personal impression of your interactions with the community. Unless I miss my guess, there are others who agree with me.
My impression every time I read a post of yours is:
1. WOTC is right.
2. The rest of you guys are wrong and can go suck it.
It's worded more professionally, more kindly, more subtlely than that, but that's the impression I get.
Now I haven't followed all of your posts religiously, so you may have said, "You're right, I agree! How frustrating!" any number of times without being an apologist for WOTC. I am not saying you have never said that, I'm only saying that the impression left with me after reading those posts of yours I've seen is that WOTC is right and paying customers like me can go suck it.
If you don't know where I could possibly have gotten this impression, let's use a brief and recent example:
1. Customers would like .pdfs.
2. WOTC doesn't want to use .pdfs.
3. WOTC is right and the customers can go jump in a lake of .pdfs for all WOTC cares (or those who speak on their behalf).
By this point, I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts.
They have. Numerous times in podcasts and various postings.
In January's Ampersand, for example:We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had. We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore.
I have also heard them, in podcasts, say the same thing.
While I am sorry that I missed that, nothing in that quote has a bit of contrition to it. You see, an actual apology contains such admissions as:
1. We were wrong.
2. We're sorry.
3. Here's what we'll do to fix it.
The above quote has a kind of version of the third, but instead of promising delivery, it just promises to make fewer/smaller promises.
To see why this is troubling, and not in the least bit satisfying (or apologetic!), put the same attitude in a different context.
1. A husband vows to be faithful to his wife.
2. Husband cheats on his wife.
3. Husband "apologizes" by saying the wedding vows were too ambitious for him to follow.
4. Since those vows were too ambitious, husband will address his lack of fidelity by avowing not to make any more grand promises of fidelity.
5. Husband never mentions that actually being faithful would be the proper course of action.
I realize the metaphor doesn't line up exactly, so you'd be wasing time pointing out to me every flaw in it. No metaphor is ever perfect.
But suffice it to say on a lesser scale, in terms of customer relationships and customer trust, this is the attitude WOTC has had in response to the customer backlash:
WOTC:Doing the right thing is too ambitious. From now on, we'll set our standards lower. Okay?
Customer:
This latest survey is having the same impact on a lot of customers, if the feedback on this thread is any indication whatsoever.
As I said before, suppose we take this on good faith that it means we'll have excellent products (if not the ones we originally were promised and still want), then we're only back where we were a year ago!
Round and round and round.
All of this has happened before. And all of it will happen again.
___
Does anyone have saved pages or text from the survey? Because I am mighty curious how these questions were phrased.
SURVEY: "Would you like a Campaign Management suite of tools?"
Customer:Hell yes, I would.
SURVEY: "Would you like that more or less than a virtual tabletop?"
Customer:Well, 80% of has live groups that meet in person and don't need a VTT, but we ALL have campaigns to manage. No brainer!
And here's a question I'll guarantee the survey didn't ask:
SURVEY: "Assuming we had to ABANDON the Game Table, you would still want Campaign Tools, right?"
Customer: What? Who said anything about abandoning? You were asking me about new tools I wanted. The Character Visualizer and the VTT were announced well over a year ago, have been demoed at conventions, advertised and blogged about by insiders. After the products that were already due are finished, here's what I want you to build next.
______________________
This is my favorite:
I ask you, WOTC, and the community representative apologists who defend them: Who is John Galt?
http://tinyurl.com/csyykv
Wow. Boy did that miss the mark. You see, I know who John Galt is, but WOTC doesn't.
A google search for "John Galt" is like replying to "A watched pot never boils" with a wikipedia article about boiling temperature. Boiling temperature is not relevant to the truth expressed by the idiom.
Even going the smartass route of "let me google that for you" (which I can appreciate), the proper replies would have been:
http://ww.lmgtfy.com/?q=Objectivism
http://ww.lmgtfy.com/?q=Responsibility
http://ww.lmgtfy.com/?q=Fidelity
http://ww.lmgtfy.com/?q=Trust
http://ww.lmgtfy.com/?q=Capitalism
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Atlas+Shrugged
The literal answer to your question is, since the architects of our hobby are both now dead, there is no 'John Galt'. Sorry to disappoint.
I disagree. We (the DMs and players) have to carry the torch for Gygax and Arneson. They can never be replaced, but we can emulate them and stand on their shoulders to improve on their work.
Especially if WOTC won't.
The figurative response to you is that, not only you, but many of the responders here are feigning desperation to the edge of revolt, as if to say, "I didn't get what I want, so we're going to overthrow WOTC."
The only thing I can say at that point is "HU-WHAT!?"
Ah, thank the gods there is a learned man among our ranks. Most refreshing after Mudbunny's shot at me in the dark went wide.
I'm not sure whether your interpretation of the novel is quite this literal, but certainly this interpretation of my question is far too literal.
What I meant by the question is:
Where are the men and women of ability?
A is A.
If you say you will do a thing, then do it.
If you said you would do a thing and it has not been done, it still falls upon you to do it.
__
In other words, at the moment WOTC has far more in common with James Taggart than they do with John Galt or Hank Reardon or Francisco D'Anconia.
Ergo I have little faith that this survey result posted here on this thread matters one iota in terms of customer wishes. And if ever I thought I was wrong on that point, all I needed to do was peruse the thousands of disappointed customer postings here asking two simple questions:
1. Where's the Character Visualizer?
2. Where's the Virtual Game Table?
Those two simple questions, from WOTC's silence, there are two simple answers.
1. They don't know and
2. They don't care.
Or the third simple answer - They aren't ready to tell us anything about it yet. The repeated statements that all say "we are continuing to work on all of the announced DDI tools, and will tell you more information when we can" in one form or another made that pretty clear. Or at least they did to me.
Mudbunny, the point I'm going to make here is subjective. It cannot be proven objectively, so I want to go on the record as saying this is my personal impression of your interactions with the community. Unless I miss my guess, there are others who agree with me.
My impression every time I read a post of yours is:
1. WOTC is right.
2. The rest of you guys are wrong and can go suck it.
It's worded more professionally, more kindly, more subtlely than that, but that's the impression I get.
Now I haven't followed all of your posts religiously, so you may have said, "You're right, I agree! How frustrating!" any number of times without being an apologist for WOTC. I am not saying you have never said that, I'm only saying that the impression left with me after reading those posts of yours I've seen is that WOTC is right and paying customers like me can go suck it.
That is your prerogative to take that impression of my postings. However, as you yourself have admitted, you haven't followed all of my posts in this forum, so I suspect that the view that you are getting of my posts is skewed.
1. Customers would like .pdfs.
2. WOTC doesn't want to use .pdfs.
3. WOTC is right and the customers can go jump in a lake of .pdfs for all WOTC cares (or those who speak on their behalf).
I am curious as to how you could have gotten that impression of me from that. Other than the one post I made above about how WotC is no longer selling .pdfs, and no longer plans on selling pdfs, I have been silent on the issue. Do I think that it is a mistake for them? Based on the information that we have, yes. But I don't think that we have nearly enough information to make any sort of reasonable judgement on their decision. WotC obviously feels that the selling of pdfs is a bad business decision for them in the current climate.
Does anyone have saved pages or text from the survey? Because I am mighty curious how these questions were phrased.
IIRC, the question was in the form that people could pick more than one choice. I think it said something along the lines of "Which of the following tools would you use" (Note that this is a paraphrase of a dim memory of the question.): Included among the choices were (at the very least):
* Tool to create and manage campaign info
* Tool to customize and print monsters
* Tool to customize and print pre-made adventures
* Tool to create character portraits
* Tool to play tabletop D&D over the Internet
There may have been more, I don't recall. I know that the question explicitly stated that people could choose more than one answer, and could pick as many as they like.
I'm really surprised that the game table didn't rate hire. You know considering how many people are vocal on the forums about it.
Also character builder and customized minis are low to? Hmm I'd much rather have unique tools like that then something I could do with pen and paper and a book.
Why would anyone pay for a campaign manager when they could use Obsidian Portal for free?
For me - it would depend on how much integration can be offered.
Obsidian Portal is great, make no mistake.
However, if I can, say, load all the PCs of my players right from the CB, build an encounter/adventure tailored to their current configuration, then dump all that Data from the Campaign Manager into the (eventual) Game Table - that's a huge incentive.
Yes, I could manually do that by flipping between assorted tools and the Portal, but having it all integrated would be sweet.
I don't know if that's what's planned, but given the integration they originally wanted in their tools, I'll be surprised if it isn't a goal.
I'm really surprised that the game table didn't rate hire. You know considering how many people are vocal on the forums about it.
Well, part of the poll data comes from at least one other site (ENworld). There's a different audience there - and they often react differently to various bits of news that how the community here reacts.
I forget what the recent example was, but there was a clear case of WotC announcing something to do with DDi - and most of the posts here were up in arms. Taking a look at ENWorld the reaction to the same post was "Wow - look at the cool things they ALSO talked about!"
Make no mistake the people who want the Game Table are ADAMANT. But just because they're vocal doesn't mean they represent more people than themselves.
When The DDI Suite of tools was first announced, I recall there being quite a few posts with the theme of "Game Table? Pfft. Why would I play D&D over the Internet when I can play face-to-face with my friends?"
The people with that perspective would likely be the ones who "voted up" the other tools.
I'm surprised the Game Table is as low on the list as it was - but not overly surprised that it wasn't #1. (Surprised it wasn't #2, however)
Also character builder and customized minis are low to? Hmm I'd much rather have unique tools like that then something I could do with pen and paper and a book.
~shrug~ I'm not a big fan of the Visualizer idea. But then, I have a hard time conceptualizing what my characters look like. Since I don't have a picture/image in my head, I don't care that much - so that tools is low on my chart as well.
Of course, when it releases I'll probably get addicted to it - because it will PUT a picture in my head. :P
Why would anyone pay for a campaign manager when they could use Obsidian Portal for free?
The best features of Obsidian Portal aren't free.
It has some amazing free features and some even better ones for a paid subscription.
Just a minor point of contention there.
I guess WOTC has their work cut out for them if they intend to build a better campaign management tool than Obsidian Portal, which is already good, and for the most part, free.
They aren't ready to tell us anything about it yet.
...any longer?
/chuckle
the view that you are getting of my posts is skewed.
Fair enough.
Re the .pdfs thing, your one post on the subject reads like, "WOTC decision made, end of story, nothing else to report so drop it." Again, subjectively, to me. That's where I "got" that.
Do I think that it is a mistake for them? Based on the information that we have, yes.
Then we're in agreement on that point. But based on your earlier post, I had no such idea.
Of course, when it releases I'll probably get addicted to it - because it will PUT a picture in my head.
I thought that was the idea behind the whole product from the git-go. I don't know what my characters look like either.
But I sure would like to.
Imagine an MMO that wouldn't let you create an avatar. Oy!
Imagine an MMO that wouldn't let you create an avatar. Oy!
Not really a fair comparison since D&D is a textual/imagination game - and most MMOs are graphical in their very nature.
Unless you count MUDs/MUSHs - which I've had quite a bit of fun with in the past, and didn't have any image of my avatar for. ;)
Not really a fair comparison since D&D is a textual/imagination game - and most MMOs are graphical in their very nature.
Unless you count MUDs/MUSHs - which I've had quite a bit of fun with in the past, and didn't have any image of my avatar for. ;)
I am baffled by this "unfair comparison" argument.
I got into MMOs because they were like playing live D&D. I'm not sure why this is hard for people to understand. All anyone had to do to sell me on my first MMO subscriptions was say, "This is like being inside D&D! It's like you're a D&D... insider! If you can imagine how cool that would be! You can SEE the character you create, play with friends across the country, and the computer even keeps track of the rules so you don't have to flip through all these books and stuff!"
To me, Everquest was D&D sprung to life in graphical detail. UO predated it, and a plethora of MMOs have followed, all based on the same principles as D&D, but while trying to improve upon those ideas as well.
The nice thing about computers was, "Wow, now we have the technology to SEE my character!"
The nice thing advertised about DnDi was, "Wow, now the OFFICIAL D&D company is going to make use of that same technology! Finally!"
The frustrating thing is still waiting.
I am baffled by this "unfair comparison" argument.
I got into MMOs because they were like playing live D&D. I'm not sure why this is hard for people to understand. All anyone had to do to sell me on my first MMO subscriptions was say, "This is like being inside D&D! It's like you're a D&D... insider! If you can imagine how cool that would be! You can SEE the character you create, play with friends across the country, and the computer even keeps track of the rules so you don't have to flip through all these books and stuff!"
To me, Everquest was D&D sprung to life in graphical detail. UO predated it, and a plethora of MMOs have followed, all based on the same principles as D&D, but while trying to improve upon those ideas as well.
The nice thing about computers was, "Wow, now we have the technology to SEE my character!"
The nice thing advertised about DnDi was, "Wow, now the OFFICIAL D&D company is going to make use of that same technology! Finally!"
The frustrating thing is still waiting.
See, this is where you are incorrect. The VTT, and all other DDi tools are NOT an MMO, they're a digital set of tools to make D&D easier and more interesting to play, while also allowing people to play without necessarily needing to be in the same place. They don't play the game for you, and adjudicate the rules like a video game; they give you a way to see what's going on in the adventure, and put rules adjutication in the hands of the DM/players.
I am baffled by this "unfair comparison" argument.
I got into MMOs because they were like playing live D&D. I'm not sure why this is hard for people to understand. All anyone had to do to sell me on my first MMO subscriptions was say, "This is like being inside D&D! It's like you're a D&D... insider! If you can imagine how cool that would be! You can SEE the character you create, play with friends across the country, and the computer even keeps track of the rules so you don't have to flip through all these books and stuff!"
To me, Everquest was D&D sprung to life in graphical detail. UO predated it, and a plethora of MMOs have followed, all based on the same principles as D&D, but while trying to improve upon those ideas as well.
The nice thing about computers was, "Wow, now we have the technology to SEE my character!"
The nice thing advertised about DnDi was, "Wow, now the OFFICIAL D&D company is going to make use of that same technology! Finally!"
The frustrating thing is still waiting.
It's an unfair comparison because of the nature of an MMO vs D&D.
An MMO by (traditional) definintion is a graphical game. So to say "imagine an MMO that won't let you make an avatar" is to say "Imagine a grpahical game, that doesn't use graphics!"
This would be like declaring of D&D (a character-and-imagination driven game) "Imagine a game of D&D that doesn't let you make characters!"
The fact that D&D has been around for decades without letting you make an avatar/image/model proves that it isn't a requirement - as it is for an MMO.
Therefore the comparison of gutting a core component of MMOs (graphics - specifically custom player avatars) doesn't really apply fairly to D&D where graphics are the icing on the cake.
Note - that may not make the lack of an anticipated tool like the Visualizer any less disappointing, but the level of disappointment doesn't change the logistics behind your comparison.
It's an unfair comparison because of the nature of an MMO vs D&D.
An MMO by (traditional) definintion is a graphical game. So to say "imagine an MMO that won't let you make an avatar" is to say "Imagine a grpahical game, that doesn't use graphics!"
I will grant you that, WolfStar. Thank you for admitting:
Note - that may not make the lack of an anticipated tool like the Visualizer any less disappointing, but the level of disappointment doesn't change the logistics behind your comparison.
I guess it would be fairer for me to say that since WOTC decided to move to a monthly subscription model, I expected (more the fool I) that this meant they were upping the level of service to include the kinds of things you can already do with those types of RPG elements which require a monthly subscription.
They don't play the game for you, and adjudicate the rules like a video game; they give you a way to see what's going on in the adventure, and put rules adjutication in the hands of the DM/players.
...which makes it all the more baffling that much more involved games can release an expension per year, but WOTC hasn't released most of their previously announced software products yet. What they're doing, by all rights, should be exponentially easier than MMOs are to create a run.
I hope the original tools will still come out and I would like to see a campaign manager. When we all get the tools and is unknown and what tools we will get first is not written in stone either.
I think what long time players and dms want is a clear and concise statement from Wizards on if the original tools are still going to be finished and available at some point and even a gamble at a ballpark of when, please be assured we won't hold you to it as if it was written in stone.
In the mean time considering how this past week has gone in the forums I found this thread at EN World to be quite interesting.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254915-all-three-3-5-d-d-books-amazon-top-25-a.html
It references this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/4442/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last
...which makes it all the more baffling that much more involved games can release an expension per year, but WOTC hasn't released most of their previously announced software products yet. What they're doing, by all rights, should be exponentially easier than MMOs are to create a run.
Well, not really easier. MMOs have the software model written for them, and they just add new sets of variables. That's the same as with the Character Builder. Once there's new content, it's added to the existing program.
For these new programs/tools/apps, the programming doesn't exist yet (so far as we know). It's incredibly hard to just throw out a new program or tool as easily as writing an expansion for a game that's already going strong.
Now, I don't know anything about programming, but I'll venture a guess: It's tougher to, say, invent a new Pen & Paper game than write a module for D&D.
...which makes it all the more baffling that much more involved games can release an expension per year, but WOTC hasn't released most of their previously announced software products yet. What they're doing, by all rights, should be exponentially easier than MMOs are to create a run.
One of the first things that is done when writing an MMO is to develop the tools and scripting language that is required for future addons and expansions. Once the tools are written, it is simply a matter of using them to develop future content. The expansions that require massive upgrades or changes to these engines always take much longer to come about.
For DDI, the tools were not/have yet to be written. They have no basis upon which they can simply expand. No structure or foundation around which to build. They are required to build the foundation before they can go any further. Once the base structure has been built, then the addition of further content is relatively trivial. See the regular monthly updates to the compendium and character builder that have been happening without a hitch.
One of the first things that is done when writing an MMO is to develop the tools and scripting language that is required for future addons and expansions. Once the tools are written, it is simply a matter of using them to develop future content. The expansions that require massive upgrades or changes to these engines always take much longer to come about.
For DDI, the tools were not/have yet to be written. They have no basis upon which they can simply expand. No structure or foundation around which to build. They are required to build the foundation before they can go any further. Once the base structure has been built, then the addition of further content is relatively trivial. See the regular monthly updates to the compendium and character builder that have been happening without a hitch.
Yeah, I ninja'd ya.
Yeah, I ninja'd ya.
According to seTiny, the extra detail I added makes it *not* a ninja-ing.
:P
Or the third simple answer - They aren't ready to tell us anything about it yet. The repeated statements that all say "we are continuing to work on all of the announced DDI tools, and will tell you more information when we can" in one form or another made that pretty clear. Or at least they did to me.
I Really really wish that they said that at some point but they didn't MB
What they have repeatedly said is far less clear.
Something along the lines of were dedicated to working to make D&DI the best it can be they have never mentioned specific tools or even the vague announced tools. heck they could be talking about pimping up the ability score generator for all that tells you. Look now you can roll random!! you can even chose 3d6 4d6 or some other odd combination such as 5d4. I can do that in IRC thank you very much
One of the first things that is done when writing an MMO is to develop the tools and scripting language that is required for future addons and expansions. Once the tools are written, it is simply a matter of using them to develop future content. The expansions that require massive upgrades or changes to these engines always take much longer to come about.
For DDI, the tools were not/have yet to be written. They have no basis upon which they can simply expand. No structure or foundation around which to build. They are required to build the foundation before they can go any further. Once the base structure has been built, then the addition of further content is relatively trivial. See the regular monthly updates to the compendium and character builder that have been happening without a hitch.
From March 2008, these videos show the tools at a fairly advanced stage, including a fully playable VTT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm_fm3npXZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72io6MTxkkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzS1rgZ_Qfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64ioPwEV3rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL7w7rXKjSw
The main frustration, at least on my part, is the demos, and marketing showing these tools 'almost ready', and indicating their imminent release.
There are other hands-on videos from Gen Con as well.
I have used third party tabletops as well. But it was the demos of the still-unreleased games table that got me excited about 4e, and about rekindling my old gaming group that is now scattered across the country.
In the mean time, I'm watching for any sign of progress, and plan to wait until the tools offering appeals to me before seriously considering a subscription.
Sicne then, they also made the decision to fcus on one program at a time. Thus, while the past 6 months or so have seen us get a lot of focus on the Character Builder (and also to the Compendium, seeing as how I think that they use overlapping databases). Once the Character Builder is at a point where most of the major bugs are worked out, they will shift focus to the next tool or set of tools that they will be working on.
I'm going to ask you to cut this out. I'm really kind of surprised that you haven't been addressed already. Accusing someone else of trolling (as you have done) isn't a particularly nice thing to do and I'm pretty sure is against the code of conduct for the forums. Not only that, (and I know I run the risk here) but it seems to be what you're doing.
Please cut it out and give everyone else a break. If you have something positive to contribute to the conversation please do so, but leave that crap at the door.
Thanks
Fair enough, just having some fun, but I apologize, didn't do it maliciously as much as annoyingly.
I just think that time has passed and we can't keep complaining about how evil WotC is. They messed up, they admitted they messed up, and now they have stated what they plan to do.
I think that the people here that post demanding something need to shed their aura of entitlement and realize 2 things.
1) If you don't like something, don't buy it. Nobody is forcing them to subscribe to DnDI, nobody is forcing them to buy books. And they weren't tricked into buying it either. I bought my books knowing full well that DnDI was still a WIP. It isn't WotC fault if they did not empower themselves with knowledge.
2) You need to learn when to shut up, and this goes to KM and others like him, thread after thread they have derailed into a WotC broke the law/is evil/will fail/owes me this/ are liars.... You've made you point now please stop derailing threads
Now that that's out of the way, I'm pleased with the result of the survey as a campaign manager will help me greatly
Again, to me, for the campaign manager to be most useful it would need to seamlessly integrate with online gaming tools....like a VTT (whistles innocently)
From March 2008, these videos show the tools at a fairly advanced stage, including a fully playable VTT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm_fm3npXZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72io6MTxkkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzS1rgZ_Qfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64ioPwEV3rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL7w7rXKjSw
The main frustration, at least on my part, is the demos, and marketing showing these tools 'almost ready', and indicating their imminent release.
There are other hands-on videos from Gen Con as well.
I have used third party tabletops as well. But it was the demos of the still-unreleased games table that got me excited about 4e, and about rekindling my old gaming group that is now scattered across the country.
In the mean time, I'm watching for any sign of progress, and plan to wait until the tools offering appeals to me before seriously considering a subscription.
From what I recall (and Wolfstar76 will probably chiome in to correct me, as he actually had hands-on experience with them) was that they were still fairly buggy. Certain actions would crash the program with almost 100 % certainty.
Indeed, what MB says is correct.
While, on the surface, the Game Table as shown off at GenCon is something I'd have been happy to use - I was cautioned about several features that were then causing the entire application to crash. What particularly stood out in my mind was the inability to show off "conditions".
At DDXP, six months before, conditions were demoed - and they were pretty cool. Right(?)-click on a figure, and choose, say, Bloodied. This would cause a semi-transparent drop of blood to start circling the figure - making it clear who has what status/condition.
While it worked well at DDXP, WotC_DM couldn't show it off at GenCon, as it was prone to killing off the entire application. Such is the nature of progressive software development I guess.
While I don't know if there were bugs or other related issues, the demo I saw was also hosted completely locally. Single client, with two open windows - one with the DM view, one with the player view.
So I couldn't say if the networking features are written, installed, solidified, etc. Then there's issues (potentially) with integration to the other tools (that weren't complete - either, so the Integration piece was likely not ready either).
So again, while the demo looked functional - and I was impressed by how much Didier was able to show me, that doesn't mean the tool is done.
We've seen, with the Character Builder, how "crash-proof" WotC wants their BETA software to be - if they're keeping that attitude with the other tools, it's little surprise to me that the Game Table - when last seen WITH crashbugs - is still not ready for public consumption.
Again - I'm with everyone else in that I'd like to know more, but I can also see from WotC's point of view that it needs to be near-perfect before it hits the Intartronz.
[EDIT]
At the risk of tooting my own horn, you can read about my Game Table demo from GenCon2008: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16602152&postcount=10
From March 2008, these videos show the tools at a fairly advanced stage, including a fully playable VTT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm_fm3npXZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72io6MTxkkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzS1rgZ_Qfk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64ioPwEV3rk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL7w7rXKjSw
The main frustration, at least on my part, is the demos, and marketing showing these tools 'almost ready', and indicating their imminent release.
There are other hands-on videos from Gen Con as well.
I have used third party tabletops as well. But it was the demos of the still-unreleased games table that got me excited about 4e, and about rekindling my old gaming group that is now scattered across the country.
In the mean time, I'm watching for any sign of progress, and plan to wait until the tools offering appeals to me before seriously considering a subscription.
The problem is that demos like that can be misleading. You can develop a demo of a game that 'looks' 90% finished, but in software development, the devil is in the details. That last 10% of polish can end up being 60% of the effort to build the application. Software demos are given in controlled environments, where the the one demoing the software can choose what hardware to use, the exact software configuration of the system, which features are demonstrated, and in some cases the exact sequence of the user input events. It's a lot easier to write an application that works as a demo than it is a finished product that can be released "into the wild," where users might install the software on all kind of software and hardware configurations, and the software needs to work 99.9% of the time no matter bizarre thing the user does.
Of course, there is the added problem that the presenters said that these tools would be released on a timeline they did not meet. They obviously made a mistake, but an all too common one when it comes to developing software.