Issue 1: charging for something I can not hold in my hands = ridiculous.
I like to have all my reference materials on hand in a tangable form. Frankly, everyone I have ever played with feels the same way. The use of the internet in regards to RPG reference material is a very recent innovation, but even with the availability of PDF reference material I don't want a laptop at my gaming table... all that serves as is a distraction (personal opinion of course).
Also, whats to stop people from just pirating the information, or sharing accounts? D&Ds biggest deterrent from piracy is the fact that gamers would rather hold a book and read it vs. reading a digital format.
Issue 2: What is being delivered a poor product in ratio for the price.
I understand Hasbro has given an ultimatum to WotC to make D&D more profitable, but these fees are on the same page as subscribing to a MMO or a cheep porn site. I would expect at least an amount of NEW material that is equal to about 100 pages (apx 1/3 the price of the PHB). I would also like to point out that WotC has no material overhead for this product other than hosting, and paying the staff who created the actual material. So far, all I have seen are clips of articles referring to half finished resources and BS fluff. Besides that... who in their right mind would even pay 10-12 bucks for a magazine?!?!
Issue 3: Why should you pay for this as a subscription and not just a one time fee?
I could see paying a one time free to have access, or a year comes free with the purchase of a PHB. Otherwise, this comes across as the company trying to give out scraps, pandering to the gamer mentality of needing to collect every resource possible. Sure you made a fancy program that will handle your grid layouts, but other than people who play over the internet, who is that really going to help? People who really like wargames are just going to play with minis, and people who are poor are just going to play with a hex grid and use their own markers. This kind of program is one the I see at the bottom of a bargin bin marked at 4.99. If it really interested me I might buy it for 20-25 bucks, however the idea of charging for it monthly reaks bitterly of a MMO.
Side note: How long does it take to use and update the program from round to round? Its just a guess, but I would imagine it would be easier to draw something out on a dry erase board or equivalent, rather that updating the program with each action. Not to mention, how well can it really handle oddities/house rules? The idea of digital of wargaming sounds inherently neat, but I would bet it slows down game play overall.
All of you gamers out there... 120 USD for one year, what do you expect out of that? WotC you have not justified your price. If you feel you have, then save yourself the time and go fire your marketing director now, rather than 12 months from now when you realize it was a horrible money making venture.
I would now like to point how several things you could buy with 120 bones other than a year subscription to DnDi.
2-3 Video games
9-10 months of a MMO
4-5 subscriptions for Bi-weekly magazines such as Time, People, Entertainment, ect...
1 month of Utilities
1 Cheap hooker (might want to lysol her)
Enough liquor to pickle your liver
3 months of comfortable living expenses in China.
1 kidney off the black market in Tijuana
Enough silly string to arm a small militia
250-300 Recces Cups
1-2 College Text Books
1 small eastern European orphan
WotC is then confronted with a hard reality... Rule books are not making enough revenue compared to the amount of effort it takes to deliver them. In the past, Hasbro has simply stopped making lesser profitable products while at the same time sitting on the license.
So what would you have WotC do? There are only 2 ways to improve profits... cut expenses or make more revenue. They might be able to cut some headcount, but this hurts the business overall--impacting the ability to make revenue. The only long-term choice is to open up new products to generate new revenue at a rate equal to or exceeding other product lines.
You're absolutely correct, electronic formats have very little comparable overhead (cut expenses) and therefore make higher profits. While an "average" consumer may not be able to spend $100 on one time purchases of books, they may pay $10 a month for 2 years. These are simple realities of economics.
I'm not going to suggest that my examples are the "right" way for WotC to make a profit. I only want to point out that WotC is confronted with a business problem that can no longer be resolved by merely selling books. They need better guidance from us about what we will pay for. The times are a'changing.
Cheers,
Will
I'm pretty sure the last issue of Dragon/Dungeon combined were well over 100 pages.
I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just wondering if you realize that your expectations are already being met, for a lower price than you stated. VTT may or may not be worth the money (I'm leaning towards not, but still hoping)--but there are OTHER VTT options out there already. Good ones.
I am sure this has already been addressed, however I feel it is very important for the corporate CEOs of this impending failure to understand why they are overcharging for their product.
Issue 1: charging for something I can not hold in my hands = ridiculous.
I hope you've never paid for any software, or a song on iTunes (one could also argue about music in general, as the CD is merely the delivery system, but I'll not quibble semantics). Both of these are "intangibles" that people charge for.
The same applies to service in general - from tipping waitstaff to a doctor's annual checkup, or to a consulting fee of any sort.
They're all intangible, and they're all things that are paid for - which isn't ridiculous.
I like to have all my reference materials on hand in a tangable form. Frankly, everyone I have ever played with feels the same way. The use of the internet in regards to RPG reference material is a very recent innovation, but even with the availability of PDF reference material I don't want a laptop at my gaming table... all that serves as is a distraction (personal opinion of course).
Also, whats to stop people from just pirating the information, or sharing accounts? D&Ds biggest deterrent from piracy is the fact that gamers would rather hold a book and read it vs. reading a digital format.
The same thing that's stopping them from pirating now. It's hardly a secret that if you don't want to go buy any book (and I don't mean just rulebooks, I mean fiction, non-fiction, anything on the bestsellers list, basically) in a bookstore someone on the Internet has already scanned it and it's available if you want to go look for it.
That's hardly a justification for any company to stop producing paid-for content.
Issue 2: What is being delivered a poor product in ratio for the price.
I understand Hasbro has given an ultimatum to WotC to make D&D more profitable, but these fees are on the same page as subscribing to a MMO or a cheep porn site. I would expect at least an amount of NEW material that is equal to about 100 pages (apx 1/3 the price of the PHB). I would also like to point out that WotC has no material overhead for this product other than hosting, and paying the staff who created the actual material. So far, all I have seen are clips of articles referring to half finished resources and BS fluff. Besides that... who in their right mind would even pay 10-12 bucks for a magazine?!?!
The magazine-only subscripition is a MOST $8/month - and that nets you two magazines (if we ignore the bonus tools). So at most someone is paying $4/issue.
This may or may not change your opinion, but at least have the correct facts at hand. By your argument the monthly subscription is 20 - 24 and includes nothing else. That's blatantly false.
Issue 3: Why should you pay for this as a subscription and not just a one time fee?
I could see paying a one time free to have access, or a year comes free with the purchase of a PHB. Otherwise, this comes across as the company trying to give out scraps, pandering to the gamer mentality of needing to collect every resource possible. Sure you made a fancy program that will handle your grid layouts, but other than people who play over the internet, who is that really going to help? People who really like wargames are just going to play with minis, and people who are poor are just going to play with a hex grid and use their own markers. This kind of program is one the I see at the bottom of a bargin bin marked at 4.99. If it really interested me I might buy it for 20-25 bucks, however the idea of charging for it monthly reaks bitterly of a MMO.
Your argument here seems to be that there's no market for the Game Table. The fact that there are a dozen or so competitors in this market space seems to run counter to your argument. There IS a demand for these products.
Just because *you* don't have a use for a feature/software/service doesn't mean others don't.
I, for one, have friends scattered across the country with whom I used to play D&D face-to-face. We play online with a Virtual TableTop (VTT) and we're looking forward to the Game Table because of its integration with the rules and character generation software.
Further, as someone who's an active member of the RPGA (with members worldwide) having one central place where we can all gather to play games will be a great boon. Right now online play is fragmented because group "A" uses "this" VTT. Group "B" uses "that" table - and we suffer for the lack of a clear de facto standard.
The Game Table is positioned VERY nicely to fill this niche.
Side note: How long does it take to use and update the program from round to round? Its just a guess, but I would imagine it would be easier to draw something out on a dry erase board or equivalent, rather that updating the program with each action. Not to mention, how well can it really handle oddities/house rules? The idea of digital of wargaming sounds inherently neat, but I would bet it slows down game play overall.
In my experience with most tools and mapping programs it doesn't take that much longer, it's just that you're "front-loading" the work (doing it beforehand) instead of taking the time AT the table/game session to do it. This actually leads to a smoother, more enjoyable game session.
The player/monster tokens/figures/representations are separate from the map, so moving them across a grid is painless. Most VTTs will also count the number of grid squares you traverse, helping you track movement (though no VTT that I've used differentiates difficult terrain, so you still have to adjust for that yourself).
Game Tables also don't do rules adjucation. There are too many variables to even begin to program for - it would bog down the game AND the application itself. Instead, adjudication is reserved for GM of the session - as it should be.
All of you gamers out there... 120 USD for one year, what do you expect out of that? WotC you have not justified your price. If you feel you have, then save yourself the time and go fire your marketing director now, rather than 12 months from now when you realize it was a horrible money making venture.
WotC may not have justified the final pricing to you. Please don't speak for me, as I'm fine with the final offering of deliverables if they're of even middling quality (and from what I've personally seen at conventions of the alpha builds, they'll be above that).
Your opion may (and should!) vary. It IS afterall, your money. Make sure you spend it on something you want to use. If DDI isn't that product, don't spend your money.
I would now like to point how several things you could buy with 120 bones other than a year subscription to DnDi.
2-3 Video games
9-10 months of a MMO
4-5 subscriptions for Bi-weekly magazines such as Time, People, Entertainment, ect...
1 month of Utilities
1 Cheap hooker (might want to lysol her)
Enough liquor to pickle your liver
3 months of comfortable living expenses in China.
1 kidney off the black market in Tijuana
Enough silly string to arm a small militia
250-300 Recces Cups
1-2 College Text Books
1 small eastern European orphan
And by coloring your list with "funny" items you actually do yourself a disservice by weakening your argument.
It is worth noting that you could buy an additional 2-3 rulebooks with the annual subscription to D&DI's final cost (when all the tools are available).
However, for that same cost you'll be getting 12 issues of Dragon (which, if the continue the current trend will give you 6 new races, and 6 playtest classes, and who-knows how many new items, spells, feats, etc), 12 issues of Dungeons (with HOURS of adventures to play), plus all the tools to help you make the most of your subscription.
That, to me, is a better deal than 2-3 books alone. Your mileage may vary.
By benefit greatly I mean that I live in a rural setting, and need to plan my play session around work, kids and home. But being in a rural area you would think that using a virtual tabletop would be a answer - but I disagree. First off I like the face to face aspect of gaming. If it wasn't for getting together each week to share some laugh's then I would have probably abandoned going to 4th edition totally.
Another issue stems from the rural setting, meaning that I would need to have highspeed (which is unavailable in my area) and it would be a added cost to get something like satellite just to use some online tools. Now I'm sure there may be other options out there for me to get over the highspeed-bump (see what I did there
) but I don't think I could warrant paying for a service for another service.As for the magazine articles - cool that I could download them, but I too like to have something to hold on to - being a DM I would like to have the adventure in front of me to write notes on (which I couldn't do to the pdf). And printing them off would be a small fortune in ink and paper.
I don't argue that this would be a viable solution for some, but with the less then stellar track record of D&DI releasing information and updating their database I don't feel it is a good return on investment. The compendium for example is supposed to house all of the rules updates as they come out. But that hasn't happened - where are the Drow for example that are found in the forgotten realms players handbook?
Just some thoughts on the subject. Again the pricing is set to par with some MMO's, which seem to be storming the virtual landscape, but I wouldn't want to see D&D reduced to someone sitting at a table with a laptop, then logging off when their character dies - which you would probably get from pick-up players.
Here is a little bit of defense for my points.
Justification of Value
Is it our responsibility for making D&D more profitable? Absolutely not! I love my D&D genre, however the issue lies wholly with the marketing department of WotC. I have severe reservations that this venture will be anything but a failure with how they are planning on taking it so far. Most likely interest will wane after 3-6 months of charging, unless WotC modifies their game plan. You as an indivigual can defend it by saying you personally think it is worth the price, but ultimately the masses will make the final decesion.
Personally I think they need to take a direction more like Xbox live and offer older content via the web site, or the ability to view books you register online, but there needs to be more content that is not just "fluff." I have read some interesting things here and there, but there is a significant amount that I would classify as the padding you line your research papers with to shore it up from 15 pages to 25.
Don't get me wrong, the idea is inherently a good one, but it is falling a few steps short.
--------------------------------
Regarding the grid engine
I never said the engine was not a good idea. I said, I personally don't care for it, and that I think a lot of old school gamers will have little interest in it. This program provides a unique niche for the gaming community, but using it as a major point to validate a subscription fee is a little preposterous.
Charge me a one time fee and give me updates for free! For example, if you buy you a new video game that is not a MMO, you pay a flat fee and are given several understood services: available trouble-shooting (online or phone), patches, and usually some minor extra content updated over time to keep you interested. At some point in the future, if a large content is available they might make an expansion.
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No, none of us want Hasbro to devour our game, but let me remind you all that WotC's judgement has not always been the best. Look at their origonal open gaming licence agreement for 4e that they tired to enforce, and are now having to recant. Perhaps I will be wrong on this one, but would it not be more prudent to find a more appealing solution now rather than try to save a sinking ship later?
Ok sure you cater to those who may not be able to get together physically, however that requires that everyone have the same thing (a subscription to D&Di, high speed reliable web connection, time, etc). Not everyone might have that (or wish to put in that investment).
I don't have high speed web access. I don't know when I'll be able to get it (or afford it), so essentially this D&Di makes me feel like I am obsolete as a gamer.
I don't understand this...obession...with technology in our games. I like 4th edition, however imho it is fine with the plastic pre-painted, pre-made dungeon tiles, and our pen/paper/dice.
The online character builder and game table will change all that. With a way to find other games with open player slots, I'll be able to try out new groups, make new friends, and thus find new groups to play with on a more regular basis.
My group has just started using a free VTT solution while we wait for the Wizards product to come out. True, we could continue just using that, but the character builder integration and the large community of players will make the subscription worth it. Not to mention I rely on Dungeon for almost all the adventures I run (the other DM is hogging the other published material).
The magazine-only subscripition is a MOST $8/month - and that nets you two magazines (if we ignore the bonus tools). So at most someone is paying $4/issue.
.
Not flaming you man, but I refer to the subscription fee as being approximately 10 USD a month, but you do bring something up that was somewhat skated over.
For many people these were great magazines, but the magazine market is rather unforgiving. I remember reading some news blerb where they stated they were happy to get out of the business. Regarding this, WotC's venture into the online release of the two magazines was an intelligent move to resuscitate these relics, but there are still a couple flaws in the design.
The majority of people like the ability to pick and choose which magazine issues they want to buy. I have a couple magazines that I have bought throughout the years that I still use to this day because of its stellar content, but along side the really good issues there were issues that had little to offer aside from a couple comical cartoons at the back. Yes, this is an opinion, but I can confidently sit back and assume that practically everyone out there thought there were issues not worth buying.
With the D&Di we are not given the choice of buying specific issues, instead we only have the option of a flat subscription. That marketing tactic an immediate turn off to a number of people who feel they don't need to spend money every month in the hopes of something that applies to their game. Opinion articles are fine, but why should I pay for them? People are looking for the meat of the game to add diversity/versitility. D&Di needs to have a good enough wealth of content, that it could confidently publish a book at the end of the physical year that people would buy. Previews of upcoming classes are nice, but how is that new? I would just rather wait for the book. In the software business, people do not charge for their betas!
WotC can stat to justify their subscription cost by not bolstering their content with previews, opinion articles, and tips to be a better player or GM. Everything I just mentioned should exist free to the public. New classes, spells, items ect... are what people want from this, not fluff.
Personally, I am really looking forward to this product and will happily pay the monthly subscription. The main reason is that for a long time I have wanted to replace my MMO gaming with D&D. Currently that is difficult, because getting a D&D group together invovles driving to someone's house, arranging babysitting, blocking off most of a day, etc. I can casually hop into an MMO for a couple of hours on a weeknight, but a casual D&D game is not possible in my current situation.
The online character builder and game table will change all that. With a way to find other games with open player slots, I'll be able to try out new groups, make new friends, and thus find new groups to play with on a more regular basis.
My group has just started using a free VTT solution while we wait for the Wizards product to come out. True, we could continue just using that, but the character builder integration and the large community of players will make the subscription worth it. Not to mention I rely on Dungeon for almost all the adventures I run (the other DM is hogging the other published material).
I hear ya man. Its a great product for you in that case. However, why can't it just be a flat price? Lets say WotC bundles all these tools in a package that is roughly the equivalent price of one video game (30-50). That seems reasonable to me. I probably would not buy it at that price, but the tools are not as useful to me personally. Would you buy is for 120 for a year of use? Seems to me your starting to look at an expensive business software suite if you use this for a couple of years.
If the gaming tools are the biggest selling point, then why not just sell that?
This is a guess, but I bet WotC will eventually offer the software to people outside of the subscription. You can argue against it, but if there is a viable market, then it will happen. What happens to the value of your DnDi subscription then?
As a consumer, other companies will eventually offer a knock-off product to fill your needs. The networking aspect is nice, but that is nothing another company can't provide for less. People can claim loyalty to the Ur company, but the masses will move to the more reasonably priced product, thus WotC needs to re-evaluate D&Di.
D&Di content right now = somewhat lacking with their hit or miss articals
Gaming Tools = Not for everyone
Current Price = 10-15 USD monthly fees depending on subscription package
The majority of people like the ability to pick and choose which magazine issues they want to buy.
I don't know about the majority in this particular case, but we'll see. Anyway, what you're describing is the subscription-only model of magazine distribution, which predates the existence of the newstand, and, according to many who follow the periodicals industry, will survive the collapse of distribution and the demise of the newstand as well. Even during the height of paper magazine sales in the 20th century there were many specialty magazines--often devoted to a particular industry, or even to a particular hobby--that were available exclusively via subscription. I can't really recommend any of the general/popular books on the subject you might find in the history or business sections of a bookstore, but if you have access to an academic library's website, a search of J-STOR or a similar database will turn up some good articles tracking the rise-and-fall-and-probable-rise-via-electronic-distribution of periodicals.
Christohper, I would be interested in hearing your opinion on the subject. Contrary to what most people might think, I enjoy hearing both sides of an argument, however I have not seen anything of real merit yet beyond personal opinion. (at least concerning my commentary)
My evaluation is of course tinted by my own opinions, but the thread still centers around the basic economic validation of the subscription.
Personally I hope that the project is successful so that hasbro does not box D&D.
Not flaming you man, but I refer to the subscription fee as being approximately 10 USD a month, but you do bring something up that was somewhat skated over.
Don't see it as flaming. I understand that [edit - by "That" I mean your revised quote, not an attempt to flame me] may have been your intent, but your wording was:
who in their right mind would even pay 10-12 bucks for a magazine?!?!
And that is what I was replying to.
If you mis-spoke, no harm done, we've all done it.
The majority of people like the ability to pick and choose which magazine issues they want to buy. I have a couple magazines that I have bought throughout the years that I still use to this day because of its stellar content, but along side the really good issues there were issues that had little to offer aside from a couple comical cartoons at the back. Yes, this is an opinion, but I can confidently sit back and assume that practically everyone out there thought there were issues not worth buying.
With the D&Di we are not given the choice of buying specific issues, instead we only have the option of a flat subscription. That marketing tactic an immediate turn off to a number of people who feel they don't need to spend money every month in the hopes of something that applies to their game. Opinion articles are fine, but why should I pay for them? People are looking for the meat of the game to add diversity/versitility. D&Di needs to have a good enough wealth of content, that it could confidently publish a book at the end of the physical year that people would buy. Previews of upcoming classes are nice, but how is that new? I would just rather wait for the book. In the software business, people do not charge for their betas!
There are announced plans to allow customers to buy individual PDF issues at their leisure.
WotC can stat to justify their subscription cost by not bolstering their content with previews, opinion articles, and tips to be a better player or GM. Everything I just mentioned should exist free to the public. New classes, spells, items ect... are what people want from this, not fluff.
Perhaps they're what you want. I actaully find myself reading the fluff more throughout the month than I do the crunch (which I read later, when the final issue is compiled, and I've had a chance to download the final PDF and flip through it at leisure.).
Again, you may speak for yourself, you *might* even speak for a majority, but be cautious when trying to speak for everyone ("what people want"). We've all got different wants.
We've all got different wants.
Indeed I want WotC to pay me 1.00 USD a minute reading the website, but that is not going to happen. *wink*
and that is a discount rate. *EG*
If the gaming tools are the biggest selling point, then why not just sell that?
This is a guess, but I bet WotC will eventually offer the software to people outside of the subscription. You can argue against it, but if there is a viable market, then it will happen. What happens to the value of your DnDi subscription then?
Because it isn't (probably) as profitable as offering it all as a service.
What they're doing to make the service more valueable is including constant updates across the myriad of products.
New feat comes out in "Book of Awesome Stuff" - it's in the Character Generator, it's in the Compendium, and it's available to subscribers to use right away.
You're playing a session on the game table, and you need to reference that feat from "Book of Awesome Stuff" but the DM hasn't received his copy from Amazon.com yet? No problem, the Game Table is tied to the compendium, so you look up "Awesome Feat of Awesomeness" and everyone can see what it does/how its worded at the same time.
Next month "A.F.o.A" is Errataed (to make it MORE AWESOME) guess what? That is in the compendium (and your character generator) as well.
That said, is it *possible* they'll offer offline version of all this software? Sure. Anything's possible. However any such product would likely come with content only from the PHB, MM, and DMG only, and likely have no options for updates (or else they'd be shooting their current business model in the foot).
While that might appeal to some groups, it wouldn't carry much appeal beyond that.
As a consumer, other companies will eventually offer a knock-off product to fill your needs. The networking aspect is nice, but that is nothing another company can't provide for less. People can claim loyalty to the Ur company, but the masses will move to the more reasonably priced product, thus WotC needs to re-evaluate D&Di.
Depends on which tool they're offering a knock-off of. Tabletop? Those exist. Anyone can make a "generic" VTT. Make one that's "for" Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, use their rules, images, or other protected content, and you're setup for a Cease and Desist (and a lawsuit if you don't comply).
Character Generator? Same issue, copy the powers, the feats, the races, etc and you've got a C&D waiting to happen.
Don't forget that Dungeons and Dragons belongs to WotC and you need their permission to make software using their content. (commercially, at least)
It all boils down to - it may not be for you. It isn't going to be for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Just because it isn't for you, or doesn't have enough value for you, however, doesn't mean its foolish to try, or going to fail automatically.
It will succeed or fail based on the effort they put into it, and the value the provide their customer base as a whole. I can't make it succeed any more than you can make it fail. We can only "vote" with our wallets and hope for the best.
Issue 1: charging for something I can not hold in my hands = ridiculous.
Issue 2: What is being delivered a poor product in ratio for the price.
Issue 3: Why should you pay for this as a subscription and not just a one time fee?
Issue 1 is the one I'm most concerned with. You claim its ridiculous to pay for something you cannot hold in your hands. I disagree. Consider when you take your car to the mechanic. Your bill is usually separated into Parts and Labor. The parts, you can hold in your hand, sure. But can you hold Labor in your hands? Do you feel ripped off for paying for it? Do you think that you should be unpaid for the work you do on a daily basis? Can you hold the labor you put into your job in your hand? You may be able to hold the resulting product, but not the labor itself.
Issue 2 is a judgment call, and each individual will need to make that choice for themselves. If you don't think its worth the price, fair enough. However, I think you should be made aware that the prices you quoted were partially inaccurate. The price will be about $5-15 per month, depending on your contract length and level. Some people consider $5/mo well worth the price for 2 magazines, the compendium, and bonus tools. If that still is too much for your tastes, then thats cool.
Issue 3 comes down to a choice of Business Model. The model of Software As A Service(SAAS) has been picking up more momentum in the past few years. There are competing software companies offering similar software with different models. Battlegrounds uses the License Model. MapTool uses the Free model. Only the market will decide which model is sustainable.
So where does all this leave us? Well, ultimately, its not our choice to make whether WotC uses a SAAS business model. The best we can do is give our feedback, as we are doing now, and hope they listen. And if they don't, then we take our business elsewhere.
If it helps you put your mind at ease though, think about how SAAS works. Don't think of it as you paying a monthly fee for a program that you could've bought on a CD and taken home. Instead, it is much closer to an MMO in the regard that you are paying for servers, maintenance, data storage, and continued development and software patches. The software you are getting is continually improving, and adapting to changes in the game environment.
I could make a few arguments for the free business model too on some of these things, but I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate or not.
There are announced plans to allow customers to buy individual PDF issues at their leisure.
That is a good start depending on how much they want to charge.
I actaully find myself reading the fluff more throughout the month than I do the crunch (which I read later, when the final issue is compiled, and I've had a chance to download the final PDF and flip through it at leisure.).
Again, you may speak for yourself, you *might* even speak for a majority, but be cautious when trying to speak for everyone ("what people want"). We've all got different wants.
I realize there are of course people who enjoy the fluff content provided in each issue, however one of my points is that there is an epidemic of similar material across the net of equal and sometimes better quality that is free. Personally, I read Giant in the Playground on a regular basis.
Mind you everything discussed in this thread is either opinion or speculation. Do the majority of people who subscribe want concrete information regarding system mechanics or do they want articles discussing game theory or other all a sundry topics? My guess is that people will ultimately want a product that they can not get someplace else. When someone offers something similar for free or for less, it invalidates the other. This is of course not an absolute.
Dragon or Dungeon might be more eloquent, but then again there are other columnist out there who might be better than the witting staff at WotC.
Consequently, the online tools will be produced by other companies eventually with enough modification that they do not violate copyright laws.
Personally I would not be surprised if there were already versions available as Freeware or Shareware.
Again, this is entirely speculation, however the most simple economic model would dictate that the online tools will eventually be available to be purchased separately (perhaps with packages you can buy as add ons not unlike rock band of guitar hero). This will half the value of the subscription package right there.
Why do I say this? Several reasons.
* A strictly online format robs the company of a potential market demographic.
* WotC will alter its marketing strategy due to pressure from Hasbro, and will offer the tools to people who want them, but have no interest in the DnDi subscription.
* No company, who's ultimate goal is profit, will take a course of action that gives them less money when presented with an option that will generate them more money.
* Clones of the product will spark competition for the consumer dollar, thus prompting WotC to move the online tools from subscription only to software you can purchase as a separate package.
* The very nature of online content that can be downloaded for a price and has very little overhead but high accessibility, encourages the attitude of offering it ala-cart.
However you could present the argument that WotC might feel that their tools are not a strong enough product to sell on their own, which of course invalidates the tools as being a major selling point for the subscription.
I am well aware of the concept of buying something that is intangible. My personal profession happens to be a Jazz singer, and I promise I do charge for my performances. However, I find it rather silly that anyone questioned this to be honest. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my comment, that people felt it was necessary to explain the semantics of the the idea, but in regards to a product geared towards the role playing community you must remember your target audience.
People can argue this point till the day is long, but a good many role players prefer to have an open book in front of them when playing their game. There are always exceptions to the rules of course, but through out my entire life, this could be considered the norm from my perspective. On the rare occasion I will have someone come to a gaming table with a laptop, but this is not the majority. Gamers are collectors, and they have always been.
Also, the fact that the product is intangible is simply an a mark against it when appealing to this demographic. It will work well for some people, but will count against it in regards to others. This is an undeniable fact, that some people will not like DnDi because it is a product they can not hold in their hands, simply put.
There has not been, as far as I know, an official announcement of sale of back issues or the price. In some ways there has not been a need to sell free back issues. I would expect soon like end of this month or sometime soon in next month they will finalize plans and announce something.
The discussion of sale of back issues was discussed at 3.00 USD each.
There has not been, as far as I know, an official announcement of sale of back issues or the price. In some ways there has not been a need to sell free back issues. I would expect soon like end of this month or sometime soon in next month they will finalize plans and announce something.
I can get behind that depending on their delivery. As long as I can download it a reasonable amount of times, I would be all for it.
I can get behind that depending on their delivery. As long as I can download it a reasonable amount of times, I would be all for it.
Speaking in a purely speculative fashion - I'd expect they'll use DrivethruRPG for PDFs of magazines (since that's who distributes the PDF books).
Their standing policy is 5 downloads.
I totally agree that a physical book contains a set of good and bad product qualities. A wise product development manager would likely consider the ways in which he could deliver the good qualities and possibly avoid the bad qualities.
Personally, I always have a laptop. My players carry laptops. Most of the GM's I know use laptops. Experiences vary.
But again, this whole thread has side stepped the underlying issue... Physical books sales alone are not a viable business product. You can be as mad as you want at WotC and Hasbro. They still have to pay the bills and return a high profit to the shareholders. Obviously, they need to deliver what the customer wants. But if what the customer wants can not be delivered at a target profit... it doesn't get delivered at all. So again, I will suggest that rather than only express what you will not buy, it will be 10x's more productive to suggest what you will buy.
I am well aware of the concept of buying something that is intangible. My personal profession happens to be a Jazz singer, and I promise I do charge for my performances. However, I find it rather silly that anyone questioned this to be honest. Perhaps I was not clear enough in my comment, that people felt it was necessary to explain the semantics of the the idea, but in regards to a product geared towards the role playing community you must remember your target audience.
I don't think anyone questioned you as being honest. I responded to what you posted. Maybe there was a breakdown in communication somewhere, but to me, your words seemed to say that you though paying for something intangible was ridiculous. Sorry if I misunderstood.
People can argue this point till the day is long, but a good many role players prefer to have an open book in front of them when playing their game. There are always exceptions to the rules of course, but through out my entire life, this could be considered the norm from my perspective. On the rare occasion I will have someone come to a gaming table with a laptop, but this is not the majority. Gamers are collectors, and they have always been.
Also, the fact that the product is intangible is simply an a mark against it when appealing to this demographic. It will work well for some people, but will count against it in regards to others. This is an undeniable fact, that some people will not like DnDi because it is a product they can not hold in their hands, simply put.
I think thats a much clearer statement of what you wanted to say. And you're right, to an extent. There is a significant demographic that will have no interest in D&DI, and only want the tangible products. But at the same time, there is also a lot of evidence saying that there is another demographic who is interested in what D&DI offers. I certainly can't say which is the majority among all gamers, and I don't know enough about you to tell whether you can or not. Maybe you are right.
Or maybe your perspective is slanted. Do you game only with people who are 30+, or in the lower economic class? These demographics are generally slower to pick up new technologies, and will probably have less interest in online gaming. But the younger crowd, or the folks with more disposable income will probably react better to the offering.
But the fact that WotC recognizes this non-traditional demographic speaks well for them and their future, since they are(or will be soon be) capitalizing on the market's demand. So your original question... Is this a bad move? In my opinion, no. There is a demand, and if a company can meet that demand with a supply, then that seems like a smart business move.
The other point to consider when talking about the demographic you represent... the 'traditional' gamer, who wants a book they can hold in their hands... WotC isn't stopping production of actual books. You can still visit your favorite local game store and pick up a copy. The fact that they are supplying D&DI does not mean that you can't pick up a physical book, so it doesn't seem to be detrimental to you at all. I can see where you may not be interested in online content, or getting a paid subscription for it, but I can't see how you could see offering the service as a bad thing.
[INDENT] 12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
[/INDENT]
Show
And here’s what you get if you are a subscriber:
* Access to the pages where PDFs of Dragon and Dungeon can be downloaded (including new articles three times per week and monthly full issue compilations).
* Access to the pages where Bonus Tools are launched (currently the Ability Generator and the Encounter Builder, soon to include a Monster Builder as well).
* Access to the D&D Compendium detail pages.
* Non-subscribers will be able to launch the Compendium, search for things, and see what results are returned. However, non-subscribers will not be able to click on the name of the rules element in order to see what it actually does. In other words, non-subscribers can see what things exist and what book they should go buy if they want to read more but don’t want a D&DI subscription.
* By the time we launch our subscription service, the Compendium will include content from all 4E books and magazines published through the end of September (including Adventurer’s Vault and FR Player’s Guide).
* Access to the pages where PDFs of Dragon and Dungeon can be downloaded (including new articles three times per week and monthly full issue compilations).
* Access to the pages where Bonus Tools are launched (currently the Ability Generator and the Encounter Builder, soon to include a Monster Builder as well).
* Access to the D&D Compendium detail pages.
* Non-subscribers will be able to launch the Compendium, search for things, and see what results are returned. However, non-subscribers will not be able to click on the name of the rules element in order to see what it actually does. In other words, non-subscribers can see what things exist and what book they should go buy if they want to read more but don’t want a D&DI subscription.
* By the time we launch our subscription service, the Compendium will include content from all 4E books and magazines published through the end of September (including Adventurer’s Vault and FR Player’s Guide).
I want to know where you guys are pulling the $120/yr from? I'm looking at theDDi #7 FAQ, which states this pricing policy, for these items:
[INDENT] 12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
[/INDENT]ShowAnd here’s what you get if you are a subscriber:
* Access to the pages where PDFs of Dragon and Dungeon can be downloaded (including new articles three times per week and monthly full issue compilations).
* Access to the pages where Bonus Tools are launched (currently the Ability Generator and the Encounter Builder, soon to include a Monster Builder as well).
* Access to the D&D Compendium detail pages.
* Non-subscribers will be able to launch the Compendium, search for things, and see what results are returned. However, non-subscribers will not be able to click on the name of the rules element in order to see what it actually does. In other words, non-subscribers can see what things exist and what book they should go buy if they want to read more but don’t want a D&DI subscription.
* By the time we launch our subscription service, the Compendium will include content from all 4E books and magazines published through the end of September (including Adventurer’s Vault and FR Player’s Guide).
I would like to buy the magazines (I would prefer paper copies of the magazines - since the cost of me printing them out is going to be pricey) but that being said a pdf would be okay with a few points - I would require that the pdf be searchable (which I believe they are now) and secondly I would like to have to scale maps to put on my gaming table. Even though I would be printing them out, it's always easier in a pinch to print out the map of a room then throw it down on the table for miniatures. Now this would cut into the sale of dungeon tile products so I don't expect that anytime soon.
If I am going to subscribe to the service I would like to be able to plug and play the dungeon magazine adventures into the virtual table top. Kind of like loading a mod in some video games. So I would be able to pop in the virtual mini's into the Siege at Bordin's Watch adventure and all of the maps, and encounters will be loaded up nice and neat. Which I don't think is going to happen. Ultimately this will mean that all of the work is done for me and I can focus on gaming, which is why I would be paying for the service - to focus on the gaming.
I would like to have the release of the magazines content all at once. If I get a subscription I don't want to be fed this stuff like breadcrumbs one bit every other day. If I subscribe to a magazine it arrives in my mail all at once, not a article every other day.
Updates to the software like the compendium - I know that they have said they will make updates to the content on the release of new content. I would like to see a place for you to be able to load custom content in the compendium (stuff like paragon paths, feats, house rules).
Now how much am I willing to pay? Well I think they should release a free 60-day trial with the purchase of certain books. This would allow them to fully adopt the model that many MMO's currently have - buy the latest expansion get a month free of game time.
Just some thoughts.
Thanks
I would like to have the release of the magazines content all at once. If I get a subscription I don't want to be fed this stuff like breadcrumbs one bit every other day. If I subscribe to a magazine it arrives in my mail all at once, not a article every other day.
I never understood why some people bring this up. Maybe you can help enlighten me?
I understand that if you were getting a regular magazine, you'd get it in the mail, all at once. I can also understand why you might prefer this instead of one article at a time.
What I don't understand is why making individual articles available as they are ready is something to object to. If you want the whole thing at once, you can get it when all the pieces are compiled at the end of the month. You don't have to read the articles individually. You aren't losing anything.
From what I see the magazines have been trickled out as the content may or may not be available. But to be honest I am only really interested in the true content not the editorial stuff (which to be honest they could just save for a blog here at wizards and fill that space in the magazine up with another adventure or game content).
But I guess it all stems from what we are used to getting for everything else - when you buy a car, you don't buy the tires then wait a week get the engine, then wait a couple of days and get the frame etc. It just seems to me that if they can post the table of contents on the web site for dungeon or dragon, then the content must be ready. If that's the case then let's have it. I hate looking at the table of contents and seeing the adventure or article I'm waiting for be the last thing that they release.
If they were truely waiting until the last possible moment (which I think you are implying that they are reading, rereading, playtesting etc) prior to release of the articles then it would end up like the rest of D&DI and being pushed back for some reason or another. Those articles are ready once they post up the table of contents. And they just carve up those articles like a neat little turkey and spread them out over the month. If they didn't then the Wizards D&D main page would take a hit the first of the month for everyone to download the new magazine pdf's and then it would be a ghost town unti the beginning of next month.
I view it as just a way for them to pad hits to their website to justify them going to a digital medium. And they feel that if you want the content then you will keep coming back time and again to get it. It is all good content and the quality is top notch. This is the true "free" crack for gamers and DM's to get you hooked before they make you pay.
/end rant
Previews are nice, right now what in effect is being offered previews of labeled current month published next month. There is a disconnect as far as publishing goes. June comes out in July but still called June printing.
An adjustment would make some more sense of offering previews of next month's dated issue (this still would allow for entire issue to be previewed), however might not fit into current plan and would cause a month gap if my plan was used. Well there might be transitional way to do it that move release date slowly toward the first as well.
It just seems to me that if they can post the table of contents on the web site for dungeon or dragon, then the content must be ready.
This line seems to be the core discrepancy. I've always assumed that they post the table of contents with maybe one or two articles ready, and the rest still in progress. I guess without a Wizo coming in to tell us directly, neither of us will know for sure. If they are holding back on articles after they are done, then yes, I would agree with you. That would be kind of silly. I can't think of a logical reason why they would do it that way, so I assumed they were doing as I had described... releasing an article as it is created.
Also, the car analogy fails because an article can be used without the rest of the magazine, but a part of a car isn't very useful unless the entire car is there. I think a better analogy is to think of it like a water faucet. If you fill a little dixie cup with water, that satisfies your thirst. And you can repeat that 8 times during the day, and keep yourself quenched all day long. Or, you can not drink anything all day, then get one of those Big Gulp cups, fill it at the end of the day, and drink that all at once. Either way, you get your water. Its just a matter of whether you are getting it all at once or a little at a time. It just depends on your personal preference. The point I was trying to make is that whatever your preference is, you can have it however you like it, so why bash on wizards for offering it both ways?
Finally, I think you make a good point about padding the website hits. I had never realized before that this would be a side-effect of releasing articles individually. This way definitely does prevent a huge glut of traffic at the end of the month. But I'm not so sure that is a bad thing. It definitely could be, if there was some sort of malicious intent, such as boosting ad revenue at our expense, but the wizards.com site isn't run by ad revenue, so wizards really has no good reason to boost traffic like that that I can think of. What do you think would be their reason for artificially smoothing traffic across the entire month?
This line seems to be the core discrepancy. I've always assumed that they post the table of contents with maybe one or two articles ready, and the rest still in progress. I guess without a Wizo coming in to tell us directly, neither of us will know for sure. If they are holding back on articles after they are done, then yes, I would agree with you. That would be kind of silly. I can't think of a logical reason why they would do it that way, so I assumed they were doing as I had described... releasing an article as it is created.
Wow I'm not sure how you can so easily discount my position and take yours as being the true fact. As you had mentioned that would be something that only someone from the wizards staff could answer. I guess if we are going to assume things that I would only assume that they were doing as I had described, but then again that would be pompus on my part then wouldn't it, since I know what happens when you assume something.
The basis in which I had place my theory of saying that at the point in which they post the table of contents they have the articles ready is that Wizards can't affort to make another hollow promise. If they were to promise content from one of the primier magazines in the industry, and fail to deliver it would undermine their total business plan. And by posting a table of contents on the site that would lead me to believe that the content is in a form that could be distributed. In the past wizards has promised us stuff like e-tools for 3.0, they promised us D&DI for the release of 4th edition - we all know the smelly mess that caused.
Finally, I think you make a good point about padding the website hits. I had never realized before that this would be a side-effect of releasing articles individually. This way definitely does prevent a huge glut of traffic at the end of the month. But I'm not so sure that is a bad thing. It definitely could be, if there was some sort of malicious intent, such as boosting ad revenue at our expense, but the wizards.com site isn't run by ad revenue, so wizards really has no good reason to boost traffic like that that I can think of. What do you think would be their reason for artificially smoothing traffic across the entire month?
Not sure if you have looked at the wizards site, but I can see plenty of ads. Some for mini's some for the RPGA, some for the upcoming products that they are going to be coming out with. We are bombarded with ads on this site. Although they may not get 10 cents for each time you click on one, they are still peddeling their wares. I don't have a problem with them having ads on their site, but when the project managers have to go into a room full of execs they can produce stats to show Hasbro or other shareholders the interest in the gaming community based on hits to the website. Since I have to come back every other day it seems to get new content - meaning that I would have to go to wizards.com 12 times a month to get the magazine content I want, rather then once for dungeon and a second time for dragon.
There are bigger business models at play here then just the click on type ads you have on your blog.
Second, I said wizards doesn't get Ad Revenue. I didn't say they didn't have ads. As you said, they don't have the 10 cent per click income, so increased traffic doesn't give them that pseudo-direct revenue increase.
Ok, so with the communication discrepencies past, lets get back to the core of the debate. You said you would have to go to wizards.com 12 times a month to get the magazine content. Thats not true. If you prefer, you can come in once a month and download both of the most recent compiled issues. After that, you can wait until a month later, then come and get the next set of compiled issues.
If I go to rpgnow.com and pay for a pdf then I want the whole thing. So if I am going to pay for D&DI to get the magazines I want the whole thing. Not bits here and there. I'm talking about my personal preference and it sounds like I'm not alone. You sound like your a company man for wizards and that's cool, everyone needs a fan. But if I'm going to pay for something I want it now and I want it all.
I also believe that if they post their table on contents on the website then people should have the option of buying that edition with being subjected to buying a subscription for something they won't use entirely. By making the whole thing subscription based they are going to alienate the casual buyer of the magazine which they may of had in the past.
As a final option, since some people like the fact that they do the bread crumb option, they could sell the individual articles through something like paypal.
PS - I liked the car analogy, but your water one was acceptable
Ultimately the original portion of this post before it got highjacked to explain things to you for some reason you can't read between the lines to get the exact message accross.
If I go to rpgnow.com and pay for a pdf then I want the whole thing. So if I am going to pay for D&DI to get the magazines I want the whole thing. Not bits here and there. I'm talking about my personal preference and it sounds like I'm not alone. You sound like your a company man for wizards and that's cool, everyone needs a fan. But if I'm going to pay for something I want it now and I want it all.
I also believe that if they post their table on contents on the website then people should have the option of buying that edition with being subjected to buying a subscription for something they won't use entirely. By making the whole thing subscription based they are going to alienate the casual buyer of the magazine which they may of had in the past.
As a final option, since some people like the fact that they do the bread crumb option, they could sell the individual articles through something like paypal.
PS - I liked the car analogy, but your water one was acceptable
(Bolded Line) - Then go play Magic: The Gathering.
The Car analogy fails because cars cost more.
Hey, look, Asmodeus, I can be condescending! I totally thought that was a skill only some people had.
Now, I think I'll stop being childish for the moment and give a good response. Much of the magazines will still be free. They have said this many times. Only the Feature articles will cost, and probably some other odds and ends.
I check out the magazine articles from here on the Boards. I can't even remember what the front page even looks like.
A bit of common courtesy would be appreciated when addressing other Posters directly. We all appreciate it. Thank You.
The basis in which I had place my theory of saying that at the point in which they post the table of contents they have the articles ready is that Wizards can't affort to make another hollow promise. If they were to promise content from one of the primier magazines in the industry, and fail to deliver it would undermine their total business plan. And by posting a table of contents on the site that would lead me to believe that the content is in a form that could be distributed. In the past wizards has promised us stuff like e-tools for 3.0, they promised us D&DI for the release of 4th edition - we all know the smelly mess that caused.
And here is a counter point to your theory. On Monday an article that was supposed to come out was pushed back so that they could get the Barbarian article out on time.
Alright I am back armed with information!
It was bumped to Friday so we could push the Barbarian article out today.
Now what this means is that neither the Barbarian playtest nor the other article were ready several days into the month, and they had to work on getting them ready prior to the release. So at the beginning of the month when the table of contents is published, everything is not completely ready.
Hey, look, Asmodeus, I can be condescending!
@Crimson - Please, don't be. While I appreciate the gesture, there's no need to stick up for me. I volunteered for this job, and I can take any abuse that comes with it. What I don't want to do is end up having to report you for a CoC violation, because you were talking down to another user.
@Major Evil - I'm not a company man. I don't get a paycheck, and I'm not required to stick up for WotC. I only advocate what I think is correct. Sometimes, I side with WotC, sometimes, I side against them. This just happens to be a time where I think they are doing right by giving us the option to either take articles as they come, or take the whole magazine at once.
The one thing that I keep trying to get through to you, but which I seem to be failing at, is that if you want the entire magazine at once, you can get the entire thing at once! Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
@Crimson - Please, don't be. While I appreciate the gesture, there's no need to stick up for me. I volunteered for this job, and I can take any abuse that comes with it. What I don't want to do is end up having to report you for a CoC violation, because you were talking down to another user.
@Major Evil - I'm not a company man. I don't get a paycheck, and I'm not required to stick up for WotC. I only advocate what I think is correct. Sometimes, I side with WotC, sometimes, I side against them. This just happens to be a time where I think they are doing right by giving us the option to either take articles as they come, or take the whole magazine at once.
The one thing that I keep trying to get through to you, but which I seem to be failing at, is that if you want the entire magazine at once, you can get the entire thing at once! Nothing is stopping you from doing that.
Sorry, Friend. However, I don't "cover" other people, I just really enjoy running people's noses in the mud when they try to raise them 6 feet over my head (which is a really hard thing to do, so it doesn't happen often). Thanks, nonetheless. I will attempt to resist the urge.
As for him: I'm sorry that he's giving you this much trouble for something so infinitesimally small.
I like Trees.
I like trees too. You can cut them down, make books out of them, and grow more trees.
I like trees too. You can cut them down, make books out of them, and grow more trees.
How fast, now?
How fast, now?
Oh wait, you're right, trees are a nonrenewable resource, aren't they? Gosh, they don't even replant any these days.
Personally, I like the toothpicks that are ground down from whole redwoods. They stay sharp longer.
Incidentally, if all you want is the magazines, you're looking at $60-$84 per year, not 120. And if your expectation is 100 new pages...
I'm pretty sure the last issue of Dragon/Dungeon combined were well over 100 pages.
Dungeon:
155 - 109 pages
156 - 129 pages
157 - 136 pages
158 - 111 pages
Dragon:
364 - 85 pages
365 - 80 pages
366 - 87 pages
367 - 75 pages
I was bored and I have the free issues handy. Dragon is smaller than I thought - not that I'm complaining about the content.
Edit: Never mind the topic.
Personally, I like the toothpicks that are ground down from whole redwoods. They stay sharp longer.
Personally, I like the toothpicks that are ground down from whole redwoods. They stay sharp longer.
Simpsons FTW!!
Simpsons FTW!!
Was thinking the original intro to Captain Planet, actually. ;)
That is a good start depending on how much they want to charge.
I realize there are of course people who enjoy the fluff content provided in each issue, however one of my points is that there is an epidemic of similar material across the net of equal and sometimes better quality that is free. Personally, I read Giant in the Playground on a regular basis.
Mind you everything discussed in this thread is either opinion or speculation. Do the majority of people who subscribe want concrete information regarding system mechanics or do they want articles discussing game theory or other all a sundry topics? My guess is that people will ultimately want a product that they can not get someplace else. When someone offers something similar for free or for less, it invalidates the other. This is of course not an absolute.
Dragon or Dungeon might be more eloquent, but then again there are other columnist out there who might be better than the witting staff at WotC.
Consequently, the online tools will be produced by other companies eventually with enough modification that they do not violate copyright laws.
Personally I would not be surprised if there were already versions available as Freeware or Shareware.
Again, this is entirely speculation, however the most simple economic model would dictate that the online tools will eventually be available to be purchased separately (perhaps with packages you can buy as add ons not unlike rock band of guitar hero). This will half the value of the subscription package right there.
Why do I say this? Several reasons.
* A strictly online format robs the company of a potential market demographic.
* WotC will alter its marketing strategy due to pressure from Hasbro, and will offer the tools to people who want them, but have no interest in the DnDi subscription.
* No company, who's ultimate goal is profit, will take a course of action that gives them less money when presented with an option that will generate them more money.
* Clones of the product will spark competition for the consumer dollar, thus prompting WotC to move the online tools from subscription only to software you can purchase as a separate package.
* The very nature of online content that can be downloaded for a price and has very little overhead but high accessibility, encourages the attitude of offering it ala-cart.
However you could present the argument that WotC might feel that their tools are not a strong enough product to sell on their own, which of course invalidates the tools as being a major selling point for the subscription.
Maybe I am reviving a dead mule or beating a dead horse here but if I may chime in. I think the main selling point of D&D insider will ultimately bring about its downfall. What is that? You say. The Virtual Tabletop. I think this thing will cost quite a bit to develop in the way that Wizards has portrayed it and because it is not a downloadable stand alone application Wizards will have to constantly monitor it and keep it running smoothly which costs money but this is not the primary reason that I think it will ultimately bring down D&D Insider. The primary reason that I think it will bring down D&D Insider is because at this point in time there are not enough people who will get every member of their gaming group to pay what may end up being about 15 bucks per month in addition to what they already put into D&D books in order to play D&D online. Other companies do it yes, but they offer stand alone applications that can be used with multiple gaming systems (thus they have the entire gaming community as customers not just the D&D 4e crowd). The other companies also do not have to monitor these apps all of the time to keep them running smoothly but when there arise problems they release patches and fixes to resolve the issues and the gamers keep on gaming.
There has never in the history of gaming been a 3d virtual tabletop with the features proposed by Wizards staff and the intricate amount of detail in the models, textures and lighting as shown in the preview videos, modeling monsters as they appear in the MM, characters as they are created in the Character Visualizer and of course it will have to be updated frequently to handle new content put out in the next PHBs, and MMs, not to mention other D&D supplements. It will take full time staff and developers to care for this thing and keep it running right. After seeing the graphical content on the videos I am betting that it will have some pretty beefy system requirements necessary to run the thing smoothly and not everyone is going to want to upgrade their computers to run this thing in addition to buying D&D books and paying for it every month. It needs to make money like comparable to an MMORPG but it is more likely to make money comparable to a mediocre rpg product.
Think about it the other tools out there, Fantasy Grounds and others cater to players in every other system that exists for the most part including D&D 4e, 3.5 and Pathfinder that makes them the superior choice from the very start, some are even free, they may not have the fancy graphics that the DDI VTT is supposed to have but they get the job done and done well in some cases, plus you don't have a monthly fee attached, you buy 'em once and yer set. Maybe you'll buy a new version when it comes out but maybe not. All somebody needs to do now is make a downloadable stand alone version of a character model maker, sell it cheaper than a subscription to D&D Insider and the bottom is pretty much pulled right out from under D&D Insider. Maybe the current GSL prevents people from making character generators but not the other stuff. Wizards doesn't own 3d modeling or fantasy characters and a model can be made to look close enough to a dragonborn or tiefling to pass without actually being one, people have been doing this with minis for a long time and just calling them something else. This stuff will happen folks, you can almost bet on it probably within a year or two you will start to see the first of these things crop up and not only will they work well with D&D 4e but with all other game systems as well. Wizard's D&D Digital initiative may be the first strike but I don't think it will survive the return blow. IN this case winning the initiative only sets 'em up for telling the competition just how to attack.
Charles
I understand that you're upset. But, I'm one of those that's fine with paying a monthly fee of $10...possibly $15. The reason I'm okay with that is because I read almost every article they release in Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine, AND I plan on using their Virtual Table Top software quite a lot. You're saying it sounds like the prices of MMO, well in a way it is but you're also getting more. You're getting an interactive online D&D game as well as access to the magazines. What it really comes down to is if the cost equals the benefits you recieve for you. If it doesn't seem like you're getting enough for you're money, then that's understandable and you can choose not to get it. For me, I think I'll be happy with what I'm getting for the price and I'm fine with paying for it.
Cheers,
Will
I would just like to adress the bolded statement above. This is my biggest problem with the DDI as of now. According to some earlier statements the whole set of online tools would cost near that of a MMO subscription.
So, how is this problematic? It is problematic because I know how much work is put into an MMO, and there is no way anyone will ever convince me that DDI took as much effort (Age of Conan cost around 100m$). For me it is imperative that effort and payment go somewhere around the same lines.
Personally I am working on something relatively similar to the above mentioned ideas, and so far it have been a 3-man project, and if we exclude art the programming have been a 1-man job.