Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Rant_Casey Dec 03, 2008 11:10:50	It's been my experience that every 4e fan I know still refuses to subscribe to D&D Insider. The main reason I hear cited is: Eventually they'll come out with a compilation in print. They'd prefer to wait for that. While we are in a digital age, the majority of RPG fans I know prefer print books over PDFs or online databases. Also, they prefer single, large, hardback compilations over numeroues smaller ones or magazines. The consensus with these 4e fans is that there's little point in subscribing to DDI as it's only a matter of time before the material there appears in print books, or is collected into a single, large volume, a DDI Compendium, perhaps, similar to the Dragon Compendium that collected much of the Dragon Magazine 3.5 material - one of the best books out there, in my opinion. Does anyone have any idea if and when such a compilation might be on the way, and what material from DDI, exactly, we can expect to be presented there? I didn't see anything on the release schedule, aside from indications that some unfinished classes currently in 'playtest' forms will be released in playable versions in future books. A timetable on this would be appreciated, as I know several people who are waiting for this to introduce changes like the altered Minotaur and Warforged Race, along with other DDI additions, to their games - one of which I'm playing in.
#2 ieattrollsforbreakfast Dec 03, 2008 11:19:22	A Dragon Annual and Dungeon Annual are due for September and May respectively. Exactly what (or even generally what) will be included is unknown at this time, as far as I'm aware.
#3 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 11:25:44	Dragon and Dungeon Annuals aren't usually reprints, they are all-new material special to that issue.
#4 williamhm75 Dec 03, 2008 11:30:25	Dragon and Dungeon Annuals aren't usually reprints, they are all-new material special to that issue. Well whatever doubt ill have the money for those, being broke is why I dont have ddi, otherwise i would
#5 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 11:40:18	I think that a lot of material that appears online in Dragon/Dungeon will (eventually) see release in print. The "digital initiative" is nice but it seems to me that print books are where it's at for WotC. When they do compile Insider material, my hope is that they'll compile not just individual articles but entire issues; maybe similar to the trade paperbacks put out by DC and Marvel, which collect six or seven comics in a single book. I'm waiting for the inevitable Scales of War adventure path print book(s). I've been downloading the adventures as they release; the PDF files should be useful for making player handouts ;). It will be easier for me to run once it's in print.
#6 greatfrito Dec 03, 2008 11:50:01	I was originally holding out for print material too, but after spending time with a friend's copies of the last two digital mags over the Thanksgiving holiday, I'm not so sure. Dragon is loaded with material, both crunchy and not. It's hard to judge, without being able to see "behind the curtain," but things were looking pretty nice. I figure I'm going to take another look in the spring, and gauge whether or not I'm liking where they're going with it.
#7 Rant_Casey Dec 03, 2008 12:05:27	It seems like a rough situation, as it makes no sense to get both DDI and the compilation. If you're waiting for the compilation, picking up DDI is a waste of time and money. If you're paying for DDI, the compilation is a waste of money. Unless you have funds to burn, you're probably in the camp of choosing one or the other.
#8 greatfrito Dec 03, 2008 12:10:56	It seems like a rough situation, as it makes no sense to get both DDI and the compilation. If you're waiting for the compilation, picking up DDI is a waste of time and money. If you're paying for DDI, the compilation is a waste of money. Unless you have funds to burn, you're probably in the camp of choosing one or the other. It's essentially the same "Early adopter" tax that people pay on electronics. Get it early, pay more for it. Given that it comes with the compendium, and other... well, theoretically, other digital goodies, plus Playtest articles (which lose a lot of value if you're getting them after the previewed product has been released), there's still a lot of reason to do both.
#9 mudbunny Dec 03, 2008 12:17:40	It seems like a rough situation, as it makes no sense to get both DDI and the compilation. If you're waiting for the compilation, picking up DDI is a waste of time and money. If you're paying for DDI, the compilation is a waste of money. Unless you have funds to burn, you're probably in the camp of choosing one or the other. This is based on the assumption that the compendium will contain everything that has ever been released in the digital magazines.
#10 Rant_Casey Dec 03, 2008 12:22:06	Well, Mudbunny, we have to make that assumption, or we run into another problem: Further alienating D&D fans who want the game to remain a tabletop, pen and paper game, and have no interest in attaching multimedia sources to their gaming. This community is still large. Not everyone wants to get their computer hobbies and their pen and paper hobbies integrated. A lot of people want to keep them as far from one another as possible. Admittedly, those aren't the people posting on forums, typically, so you won't see them here. But they have a voice, and they would take great offense if they were deprived, in any way, of material offered to the DDI crowd.
#11 mudbunny Dec 03, 2008 12:25:04	Well, Mudbunny, we have to make that assumption, or we run into another problem: Further alienating D&D fans who want the game to remain a tabletop, pen and paper game, and have no interest in attaching multimedia sources to their gaming. This community is still large. Not everyone wants to get their computer hobbies and their pen and paper hobbies integrated. A lot of people want to keep them as far from one another as possible. Admittedly, those aren't the people posting on forums, typically, so you won't see them here. But they have a voice, and they would take great offense if they were deprived, in any way, of material offered to the DDI crowd. People could play without a subscription to Dragon or Dungeon magazines. The digital versions are no different. 4E, the three core books (PHB, MM, DMG) are all that is required to play 4E D&D. Anything else you want to use in your game, whether it be through a splatbook, DDI or a 3PP, is extra material that people use because they want to, not because they have to.
#12 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 12:25:56	I don't think Insider and print compilations are mutually exclusive. I used to buy Dragon religiously when it was in print. I would (occassionally) see some things later in books but that didn't deter me; actually I enjoyed the heck out of it. I knew how cool Dragon Magazine was before anyone else :P (or so I like to think). For instance, the Duelist prestige class was seen first in Dragon, the Six Hidden Houses were later seen in Complete Psionic. In fact, I bought the book just for the added detail on the "Miind Lords of Talaron" article, which first appeared in Dragon Magazine #281 by Stephen Kenson (a favorite game designer of mine). A lot of material was polished up for the books of course, but it was still fun to see first in Dragon. I feel much the same way with Insider material. I subscribe for the fun and exciting ideas; if I happen to see some things in print later, that just means Dragon is still the coolest, even online ;).
#13 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 12:34:47	People could and DID play without Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Those mags were loss leaders. They did not turn a profit. In other words, they ended up not being worth the resources dedicated to them, as they were insufficient as a loss leader. Loss leaders are essentially advertising, where money on the product is lost to draw customers to the rest of the product line. They were insufficient as a loss leader, even with advertisers paying a significant percentage of the cost to produce the mags. Cutting the costs drastically by making them digital was WotC keeping those magazines in print in a medium viable to do so. What makes you think that it would be worth compiling the entirety of these magazines into a hard copy, when the precedent set is that the hard copies of the magazines themselves are not profitable? Incidentally, the "Annuals" are something akin to a variety pack of cool new stuff for the game, that could easily have been released without the titles "Dragon Magazine" or "Dungeon Magazine" on them, and thus aren't quite comparable to the magazines themselves.
#14 parkington Dec 03, 2008 12:43:52	People could and DID play without Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Those mags were loss leaders. They did not turn a profit. In other words, they ended up not being worth the resources dedicated to them, as they were insufficient as a loss leader. Loss leaders are essentially advertising, where money on the product is lost to draw customers to the rest of the product line. They were insufficient as a loss leader, even with advertisers paying a significant percentage of the cost to produce the mags. Cutting the costs drastically by making them digital was WotC keeping those magazines in print in a medium viable to do so. What makes you think that it would be worth compiling the entirety of these magazines into a hard copy, when the precedent set is that the hard copies of the magazines themselves are not profitable? Incidentally, the "Annuals" are something akin to a variety pack of cool new stuff for the game, that could easily have been released without the titles "Dragon Magazine" or "Dungeon Magazine" on them, and thus aren't quite comparable to the magazines themselves. I'm fairly sure that you are incorrect about Dungeon & Dragon magazines being loss leaders, at least in later years. WoTC subcontracted their production to a separate company (Paizo) whose primary product was the magazines. If they couldn't do it for a profit, I don't think they would have kept it up. Further, it is my understanding that WoTC took them back from Paizo, not that Paizo gave up because the mags were unprofitable.
#15 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 12:47:22	Paizo may very well have done a solid job, but I am certain that our WotC reps told us themselves that the magazines were loss leaders. Paizo was likely making sufficient money on the advertising dollars, with their cut, but Paizo making a profit =/= WotC likewise making a profit. WotC took it back, in all likelihood, so that they didn't have to give out that cut, but instead could simultaneously cut costs, and sell at "full retail" direct to the customer base.
#16 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 13:02:04	People could and DID play without Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Those mags were loss leaders. They did not turn a profit. In other words, they ended up not being worth the resources dedicated to them, as they were insufficient as a loss leader. Loss leaders are essentially advertising, where money on the product is lost to draw customers to the rest of the product line. They were insufficient as a loss leader, even with advertisers paying a significant percentage of the cost to produce the mags. Cutting the costs drastically by making them digital was WotC keeping those magazines in print in a medium viable to do so. What makes you think that it would be worth compiling the entirety of these magazines into a hard copy, when the precedent set is that the hard copies of the magazines themselves are not profitable? Incidentally, the "Annuals" are something akin to a variety pack of cool new stuff for the game, that could easily have been released without the titles "Dragon Magazine" or "Dungeon Magazine" on them, and thus aren't quite comparable to the magazines themselves. Of course people played without Dragon/Dungeon; they're essentially cheap gaming supplements (advertising, as you say ;)). Read 'em, toss 'em out (although some, like me, collected them). Dragon was in print for 30+ years; did it operate in the red all those years? If so, why was Paizo interested in the license? The mags may have been loss leaders in concept but apparently they were successful where it really mattered: With the fans. Before the internet (a time I remember all-too-well ;)), Dragon served as my connection with the hobby. The forum pages could even be considered an old-style message boards of sorts. Sage Advice was were I would go to find the latest errata. The idea of dismissing Dragon/Dungeon based soley on the profit they made (or didn't make, as the case may be) rubs me the wrong way. No offense to the quoted poster; I just wanted to give a more positive reply.
#17 parkington Dec 03, 2008 13:07:48	Paizo may very well have done a solid job, but I am certain that our WotC reps told us themselves that the magazines were loss leaders. Paizo was likely making sufficient money on the advertising dollars, with their cut, but Paizo making a profit =/= WotC likewise making a profit. WotC took it back, in all likelihood, so that they didn't have to give out that cut, but instead could simultaneously cut costs, and sell at "full retail" direct to the customer base. Yes, but that is not what you said. You basically said that WoTC had to switch to an electronic medium to keep the magazines viable. That is simply not true.
#18 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 13:15:15	Of course people played without Dragon/Dungeon; they're essentially cheap gaming supplements (advertising, as you say ;)). Read 'em, toss 'em out (although some, like me, collected them). Yup, I had just about all of them myself. Kept all my Dungeons over the years, and still have 'em. I sold off all my 2E and earlier-centric Dragons when 3E came out, and sold all my 3E-centric Dragons when 4E came out. Dragon was in print for 30+ years; did it operate in the red all those years? If so, why was Paizo interested in the license? The mags may have been loss leaders in concept but apparently they were successful where it really mattered: With the fans. Oh, of course they didn't always operate in the red. They'd never have lasted that long, as you say. Before the internet (a time I remember all-too-well ;)), Dragon served as my connection with the hobby. The forum pages could even be considered an old-style message boards of sorts. Sage Advice was were I would go to find the latest errata. Ahhhh, and therein (the surge of the internet in everyday life) lies the rub. The internet changed the playing field considerably, and both drove people from the printed medium while simultaneously increasing the costs of the printed medium considerably. The idea of dismissing Dragon/Dungeon based soley on the profit they made (or didn't make, as the case may be) rubs me the wrong way. No offense to the quoted poster; I just wanted to give a more positive reply. Oh, I'm not dismissing them, and I am a DDI subscriber. But I do not see WotC producing the magazines in the printed medium in the manner the OP suggests. The cost would be rather high, and the precedent is that those kinds of products simply don't have enough demand anymore. *shrug* My opinion on liking or disliking the phenomenon are pretty much irrelevant.
#19 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 13:16:22	Yes, but that is not what you said. You basically said that WoTC had to switch to an electronic medium to keep the magazines viable. That is simply not true. Viable for WotC. Again, regardless of how much profit Paizo is pulling in, that does not equate to WotC pulling in profits.
#20 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 13:29:44	Oh, I'm not dismissing them, and I am a DDI subscriber. But I do not see WotC producing the magazines in the printed medium in the manner the OP suggests. The cost would be rather high, and the precedent is that those kinds of products simply don't have enough demand anymore. *shrug* My opinion on liking or disliking the phenomenon are pretty much irrelevant. Glad you didn't bite my head off, Tectuktitlay; I worried my reply might come across as hostile (wasn't intended that way). I'm just passionate about Dragon/Dungeon ;). I'm curious: Why do you think the cost to produce a trade paperback (collecting several issues perhaps) would be high? I mean, WotC prints hardcover supplements regularly; it's gotta be making money or they wouldn't do it. Printing hardcover sourcebooks can't possibly be a loss leader activity ;). I don't know if they would be in high demand or not, but as someone who prefers print, I would enjoy such a product.
#21 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 13:36:36	Glad you didn't bite my head off, Tectuktitlay; I worried my reply might come across as hostile (wasn't intended that way). I'm just passionate about Dragon/Dungeon ;). Nah, that didn't come across as nasty or anything. I'm curious: Why do you think the cost to produce a trade paperback (collecting several issues perhaps) would be high? I mean, WotC prints hardcover supplements regularly; it's gotta be making money or they wouldn't do it. Printing hardcover sourcebooks can't possibly be a loss leader activity ;). Print run size. They'd have to print enough copies to make it worth their time to dedicate precious printer time to it. If they can't sell that many copies, it's not worth it.
#22 parkington Dec 03, 2008 14:53:59	Nah, that didn't come across as nasty or anything. Print run size. They'd have to print enough copies to make it worth their time to dedicate precious printer time to it. If they can't sell that many copies, it's not worth it. I wonder if they would sell pdf copies of them instead?
#23 Seeker95 Dec 03, 2008 15:20:59	It seems like a rough situation, as it makes no sense to get both DDI and the compilation. I do not view a compilation released in the future to be a competitive product to the digital releases they compile. I get the DDI material NOW. If they release a compilation, I get that for the all-in-one-place benefits that come with compilations.
#24 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 15:24:43	I wonder if they would sell pdf copies of them instead? Now THAT I do expect to see at some point in the future. Especially once WotC announced the discontinuation of older PDFs for DDI subscribers. Yes, I do indeed think at some point they will simply sell PDFs of individual issues.
#25 Rant_Casey Dec 03, 2008 16:51:54	Seeker95, *you* may not view compilation released in the future to be a competitive product to the digital releases they compile, but nearly everyone else does. Most consumers hate to pay for the same thing twice, plain and simple. Further, they don't like to pay for something now, *know* a better deal is in the works, for later. Some early adopters won't care, but for thriftier buyers, they will. Everyone I've met sees the products as mutually esclusive - they're getting one or the other (or neither). There is no way that the majority of people would ever accept both a monthly subscription and a compilation as worthy investments. Most will hold out for the compilation, once all the playtesting and revisions are done.
#26 parkington Dec 03, 2008 17:30:34	Seeker95, *you* may not view compilation released in the future to be a competitive product to the digital releases they compile, but nearly everyone else does. Most consumers hate to pay for the same thing twice, plain and simple. Further, they don't like to pay for something now, *know* a better deal is in the works, for later. Some early adopters won't care, but for thriftier buyers, they will. Everyone I've met sees the products as mutually esclusive - they're getting one or the other (or neither). There is no way that the majority of people would ever accept both a monthly subscription and a compilation as worthy investments. Most will hold out for the compilation, once all the playtesting and revisions are done. As usual, you are incorrect. People pay for the same thing twice all the time. Further, a compilation is not the same thing. It is all of a group of things published together at a later time than the original publication. Some people will buy only the original publication, some will buy only the compilation, and some will buy both. The publisher cares nothing about the people who won't buy either. Since some people will only buy the compilation, the only question for the publisher is "would I make more money by making it clear that the only way to get this stuff is through a monthly subscription than I would by offering a monthly subscription for timely access and a compilation of last years stuff".
#27 Tectuktitlay Dec 03, 2008 17:35:47	Seeker95, *you* may not view compilation released in the future to be a competitive product to the digital releases they compile, but nearly everyone else does. Most consumers hate to pay for the same thing twice, plain and simple. Further, they don't like to pay for something now, *know* a better deal is in the works, for later. Some early adopters won't care, but for thriftier buyers, they will. Everyone I've met sees the products as mutually esclusive - they're getting one or the other (or neither). There is no way that the majority of people would ever accept both a monthly subscription and a compilation as worthy investments. Most will hold out for the compilation, once all the playtesting and revisions are done. Huh? Have you seen the secondary market prices on the Dragon Magazine digital collection? The demand is certainly there. Also...Star Wars Special Edition(s), muahaha. Just watch the people own 5 versions of the EXACT SAME TRILOGY.
#28 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 17:57:41	Huh? Have you seen the secondary market prices on the Dragon Magazine digital collection? The demand is certainly there. Also...Star Wars Special Edition(s), muahaha. Just watch the people own 5 versions of the EXACT SAME TRILOGY. That brings up a good point (I think) about buying the same thiing twice. I go to the movie theater all the time and watch movies. If I really like the movie, I'll pick up a copy on DVD or Blu-ray. So, I view Insider material online. If I really like what I see, I'll pick up a print compilation. It can be the same as paying to view a movie once in the theater, then, a few months later, paying to own an actual copy of the very same movie (this time with bonus DVD content ;)). Not an exact analogy of course but that's kinda how I think about it.
#29 haplo81 Dec 03, 2008 20:18:11	Except that with DDI, you own a copy of the product the first time. It would be more like buying a movie on DVD, then buying it on Blu-Ray a few months later.
#30 Artifact Dec 03, 2008 22:19:20	Except that with DDI, you own a copy of the product the first time. It would be more like buying a movie on DVD, then buying it on Blu-Ray a few months later. True, but digital products such as Insider are just way too ephemeral for my tastes. Another loose analogy might be: I record a song off of the radio, using a blank audio tape. The quality of such a recording pales in comparsion to an actual MP3 download of the same song. Once I have the MP3, the worth of the taped recording is negligible; I'd toss it. It's all in the eye of the beholder. It's print I prefer, PDF is nice (as a back-up perhaps) but no substitute for the real deal. Sorry 'bout taking the thread off topic ;).
#31 Seeker95 Dec 04, 2008 7:10:53	Seeker95, *you* may not view compilation released in the future to be a competitive product to the digital releases they compile, but nearly everyone else does. Prove it. I like 4e. That's fine. My opinion on 4e is irrefutable so long as I claim to speak only for myself. You don't like 4e. That's fine. Your opinion is irrefutable until you claim it is held by anyone other than yourself. The reason I do not place even a smidgen of value on most of your posts is that you seem unwilling to speak only for yourself. Thread after thread has you speaking for other people.
#32 malkav666 Dec 04, 2008 7:30:37	I think a lot of the articles in DDI will appear in regular releases (like the annual PHBs, future MMs, en wot). That being said I would really like to see a compilation of the things that do not make books. It is my prediction that most of the stuff WILL make future releases, so if I had to take a guess I would think that these compilations (if in fact they do occur, which tbh I am not sure they will) would prolly come out every couple of years for dragon stuff). All that being said Dungeon is an entirely different beast. i think it is a great idea for them to compile entire adventure paths and release them as a single volume (or perhaps even more likely a single one time pay download). love, malkav
#33 VerysArkon Dec 04, 2008 10:50:07	I actually think only a very small percentage of the DDI Dragon will make it into the Dragon Annual Average issue has 80 pages 80 x 12 months = 960 pages Dragon Annual has 160 pages, or 16.6% of the total number of DDI Dragon pages. Those waiting for the Dragon Annual will only get about 20% of what a DDI subscriber gets, albeit likely the best 20%. Subjects that are likely to appear in a print book (except for playtests and previews), will likely not be included in the magazines. Dragon is used to supplement print books, especially campaign settings. I don't see them as early releases of material that will appear later.
#34 Tectuktitlay Dec 04, 2008 11:18:21	The precedent for all of the previous Dragon Annuals, however, is that they do NOT reprint material. They place all-new material in the Annuals. Bits and pieces of juicy goodness from all of the different worlds and mechanics. So, I would expect to see a Forgotten Realms article, an Eberron article, a Domains of Dread article, a Planescape/planar article, a Dark Sun article, a Dragonlance article, perhaps a Spelljammer article, an article for additional DM guidelines, something similar for the players, and maybe this time around, something like either each of a Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Primal article, or each of a Controller, Defender, Leader and Striker article. Likely most of it will be chock full of crunch. Dungeon Annual will likely have a selection of larger, more in-depth adventures, including one very large adventure. That is, going by all of the previous Annuals. As for compilations of Dungeon adventures, that is a whole other beast than fully reprinting entire issues of the mag at once. That, I completely agree there could be a market for. Compiling an entire adventure line in order could very well be something worth printing into a hard copy and selling.
#35 VerysArkon Dec 04, 2008 13:19:54	I'm thinking this Dragon Annual will be more along the lines of Paizo's Dragon Compendium vol 1 (2005) or the Best of Dragon (early 80's) than the Annuals 1-6 published from 1996-2001.
#36 Artifact Dec 04, 2008 14:45:06	I'm thinking this Dragon Annual will be more along the lines of Paizo's Dragon Compendium vol 1 (2005) or the Best of Dragon (early 80's) than the Annuals 1-6 published from 1996-2001. That's my expectation as well. There were "Annual" issues of the print Dragon, and I enjoyed them for what they were. I'm hoping this wil be lesss like that, and more like the Monster Manual Annuals (anyone remember those?). They were for 2nd editon and re-presented monsters that appeared in supplements and Dragon Magazine during the year previous.
#37 greatfrito Dec 04, 2008 14:48:00	As someone else has already pointed out though, even if they are compilations, there is no way they will be able to include all (or even most) of the content of a magazine over one year in one book. Not if they keep the length of the past few issues, anyways.
#38 Artifact Dec 04, 2008 14:57:29	As someone else has already pointed out though, even if they are compilations, there is no way they will be able to include all (or even most) of the content of a magazine over one year in one book. Not if they keep the length of the past few issues, anyways. Here's how I'd do it: Collect three issues of Dragon (or Dungeon) in a single trade paperback (at 80 pages an issue, that would be 240 pages-- a good but not unmanageable size book). Then, release the trade paperbacks in volumes quarterly (four times a year). So, Volume 1 would include issues #364-366, Volume 2 would include #367-369, and so on. It will never happen of course (there's not THAT much demand for Dragon/Dungoen material) but a guy can dream, can't he ;)?