If anyone can point me to free or one-time-pay things that replace aspects of the DDI, it'd be much appreciated.
Is it must me or is every useful aspect of the DDI save perhaps the magazines (which I hope we can buy separately) covered by a free product? Problem is I don't think wizards knows just how much of the DDI has been done.
I haven't seen any other virtual tabletops do 3D yet, although I know one (GlitterComm) is in the works.
If anyone can point me to free or one-time-pay things that replace aspects of the DDI, it'd be much appreciated.
Here are the Game Table alternatives. Sorry, I can't help with alternatives to the other DDI apps.
Which unfortunately seems to have stalled in development (potential abandonment)
If anyone can point me to free or one-time-pay things that replace aspects of the DDI, it'd be much appreciated.
The Campaign Vault was something DDI originally mentioned in the early stages but no news of it now days. http://www.obsidianportal.com/ does a great job of campaign blogging, a wiki and NPC vault (all allowing for hidden GM Only text).
And yes you read that correctly. I can see a lot of people getting upset cause they knee jerked and decided "Well let me buy all these other one off tools that will do the same thing that DDI will do." I have learned from these forums that D&D fans seem to want a lot more than most. I for one will do what everyone should. Look at all the options and go from there.
If you need stuff right now and can't wait, than DDI is not for you at this time. If its something that can wait, than you might want to wait till the damn tools are out before you claim that everything thats out is better. Its only better right now cause the are availiable. People who claim they are better than what the current features that DDI has need to show me how, as I am not a big fan of Fantasy Grounds or Battlegrounds and that really just covers the game table. You have to them get a map program and know how to use all of those programs. DDI hopefully will be really intuitive. So claiming that its worthless and forever will be before the damn thing comes out, seems a bit lame.
I fully expect to try the things when they come out (even if they don't have a trial period which so far all cases say they will) I will be more than happy to try for at least a month $15 for a dungeon building tool, a character building tool, a character visualizer program so I can make a mini of my character which is semi customizable onto a virtual game table that will have 3d elements to it (and if the 3d elements are really cool, maybe worth dropping a couple more bucks to get some cool minis). Besides all that I will have access to an online resource that will give me some information so I don't have to go flipping through the books and also I get that months Dungeon and Dragon magazine. To me, that seems like a decent amount for $15 bucks. Obviously if the programs are lame, then I will just cancel my subscription, buy just the magazines (as I like them, and assuming they are substantially cheaper than the sub for DDI) and continue on my way.
The part that im not understanding is people seem to be just now be saying "Wow the tools are the same as everything." This seems to lead to that people are just po'd that the tools weren't released when they thought it would be.
This is a question Wizards is going to have to answer, especially in an age where a whole game (WoW) is given to you for $15/month. Heck for the amount I'd have to pay for DDI (plus the core books) I could buy GuildWars which gives you a whole game with no subscription fee.
Your implication that I'm mad at wizards for not releasing the tools on time is wrong. And you also seem to be under the misconception that we need to convince you NOT to buy the DDI when the truth is Wizards needs people to buy into its scam...er...online product.
Wizards just hasn't convinced many to buy into it, because they couldn't even release it on time. Once it comes out, why would you expect it to work when Magic Online is such a bloody mess?
I am one of those "targeted new players" that they are obviously trying to get with a program like this. Let me tell you guys a story that some, but probably not all of you guys are familiar with.
As an avid MTGO player I have to pay full price for packs of cards from WoTC's store. Yes, I could find backways of getting the packs cheaper but really, you can only get packs FROM the WoTC system, especially when it comes to Tix (the online currency) and prized events. For the most part MTGO is pretty cheap in comparison to the paper game, ( you don't have to buy as many cards for mulitple decks and you don't have to do the "housekeeping") but paper packs of cards cost generally 50% less than online packs, and since the most popular form of playing is limited (you need packs/starters) playing limited is effectively cheaper offline then it is online.. the problem? PLAYERS.. finding people to play the game with is infinately easier on MTGO then it is in the real life.
here's another example a few months ago I wanted to play D&D with some friends who play semi regularly. I've known them for a long while, we usually play Magic together, and while I've been familiar with D&D I've never actually played it proper. So I go in there thinking yeah it'll be like Neverwinter Nights or something just on a tabletop.. well the guy that was the DM is a great guy, but not a very immersive guy, and he didn't give us XP per battle but rather at an arbitary spot decided to "level us up" rather then getting XP and doing it as we went. I didn't have a very good time playing because of the campaign was "in his head" and not out of a campaign book/adventure.
D&DI solves a lot of problems for newer players or players who may not have a steady play group who can meet regularly. My dad and I would love to play D&D but the setup and time investment is something we do not have . but if something like this gets released that is OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED I am more likely to play. and I can probably muster up a group to play once/twice a week in great campaigns.
So you're willing to pay $15 a month to pay for a virtual table top to play online with people once or twice a week and of course you'll have to pay for miniatures too if your the DM. And you want D&D to be where you get XP per battle and all of the adventures are premade. Thats not D&D thats a video game. You want NWN or WoW. Sometimes DMs like to make adventures off the top of their head or don't have time to make a complete premade adventure. Many players like to work against premade adventures and tend to do things that DMs don't expect which can throw a premade adventure down the tube. D&Di isn't gonna change how people play D&D its just gonna change who you can play D&D with. And there are other virtual table tops out there where you can find D&D groups and play online with miniatures and premade adventures, its just not 3D miniatures. They don't charge per month or per miniature. Also they are extremely customizeable, you can use them to play more than just D&D 4e.
where does it say i HAVE to pay for miniatures?.. from what I understand is if you buy an adventure it comes with all the tiles/miniatures that I need for that specific for that adventure?.. I have a full time job, and I go to school nearly full time as well.. i'll probably only have 3-4 hours a week to devote to playing D&D ..
Also I'm not saying I want XP everytime I kill a rat or something.. but I would at least like XP after every encounter.. not "oh we're at an arbitary point in the game ... everyone level up".. to me thats not RPGing thats just making the characters convinent for the environment.. I blame my poor experience on bad DMing not bad gameplay elements. The DM should be instrumental on advancing the story elements at a pace that players feel intuitive about things. I've played D&D where the DM is much better we got experience and leveled up as we went through the dungeon.
Also, let me put it in this perspective, I buy a "trading card game tabletop" that I will be primarily playing MTG on.. I really ONLY play MTG for card games why would I pay for something that lets you play Yu-Gi-Oh, WoWTG, Vs. when really I'll only be playing MTG? also, the quality of players will likely be much higher on an official platform then their will be on any third party application out there. I'm paying not only for the content, players, and tabletop, I'm also paying for the convience and ease of use, meaning that things will likely stay updated and errata'd not only that, with an official tabletop/tools, you get the benefit of talking to people who actually make the RPG/TCG and the thought of buying official adventures entices me more then someone making crap up along the way that really doesn't have any sense of story whatsoever.
Did you read the FAQ on pricing and how the minitures will work? Here's a link just to help if not: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1045521
It talks about how vminis will be distributed and pricing for D&Di.
-- [P3] Why do we have to purchase 3d mini's and why aren't they part of the monthly fee? The reason that WoTc said the high fee was worth it was due to the fact that you get all the services and it pays for improvements to the software. The fact that they would not do an Al' a cart option runs down this same thought process. So why all the sudden are we getting an 'extra' addon fee for something that our monthly fee should cover?
The decisions regarding the sale of the Vminis as micro transactions added on top of the general subscription is one that has been in the plans for a very long time (as far as I remember at least as far as I joined the project, in March 2007). My task is to help coordinate the technology of the clients applications to accomplish this business plan, so my answers can only be driven by this role, and I can't provide much input on the subject you are raising.
where does it say i HAVE to pay for miniatures?.. from what I understand is if you buy an adventure it comes with all the tiles/miniatures that I need for that specific for that adventure?.. I have a full time job, and I go to school nearly full time as well.. i'll probably only have 3-4 hours a week to devote to playing D&D ..
Please do not feed the troll.
As far as it goes WotC announcements do indicate that some 3Ds will be provided with subscription.
That additional 3Ds can be purchased.
That if an adventure is offered that includes 3Ds in that offer you get those as well. This I suspect will not occur often but might occur from time to time.
All in all there is no official statement that if you download an adventure you receive free 3Ds for all monsters in that adventure, just that if an adventure is offered with 3Ds you get to add them to your starter pack for free (unless you count subscription costs) and your purchased ones to have more available for any future gaming.
Marketing has been very quiet on pricing, how many will be in started pack and so on. There are many answers still being waited for.
also, the quality of players will likely be much higher on an official platform then their will be on any third party application out there.
I think it a bit harsh to judge players based on the gadgets they prefer to use for playing. I would even disagree a bit, or perhaps look at it from a different angle and think the official platform tends to attract the more mainstream players and if that's what you want, I guess your quality standards will be well satisfied with the DDI game table. You get your standard party fighthing their way throught the standard encounters on standard tiles more reliably than with a virtual tabletop with less official support/burden.
In the meanwhile, the less mainstream players can, however, already play their games online while the DDI enthusiasts are left waiting...
I know D&D is not a competitive game in the sense that MTGO is, but it is more likely to attract the people who are avidly interested in D&D then the ones that may only play once in a while or when a new book comes out. thats why I would suggest that the quality of players would generally be higher on an officially supported platform (the same players who read all the magazines/and the ilk) then by a third party or no online platform at all.
If you don't use the tools of course D&DI is worthless. However, if you use them, chances are you can easily justify the cost.
Game Table
Yes, others may be available, but...
* D&DI includes a martialing system which allows running of public games meaning that you don't need to know people to play games before hand. Newbies can find people to play with, existing folks can run virtual conventions, game days, regular groups can put fill seats for missing members, etc.
* D&DI includes built-in VOIP which means that you don't have to fiddle with third-party VOIP programs which non-techical folks might not have a hope of getting to work.
* You can load maps in from Dungeon Builder.
Dungeon Builder
A DM running a regular game day, public events, etc. can easily write say 50 four hour adventures per year. Using Dunjinni ($50) or something, and Word to actually write up encounters and such, that could easily take 4 hours per week. (I suspect most DMs just write up simple notes, but hey...) Lets assume that these tools saved even 25% of the time to make up the adventures. That would be 50 yours of prep-times saved per year.
Maybe there is something else out there cheaper, but I haven't found it yet.
Character Builder
I still use modified Excel spreadsheets. They are not great or automated. I likely spend a couple of hours every character just dealing with Excel to get the layout correct, plus having to look up and copy out abilties and powers. I then have to repeat each time I level. If D&DI saves me one hour per character, or ten minutes per level, it likely saves me 20 hours a year. Power cards would be helpful.
I've looked at other character systems... most are incompete or are too technical to non-Excel/computer folks.
Character Visualizer
I do insert character pictures and it is a bit annoying to look for artwork which really captures the character. I'm not sure the results would be as good as pictures on the net, but if it was... it would certainly save time.
Compendium
Likely of little benefit, but searching through online is useful and it likely is better to have a more complete source than say Wiki or SRD sites.
Magazines
If you read, 24 magazines a month is likely a good deal.
If you don't care for any of these benefits, or don't value your own time, then perhaps other tools will worthwhile or less expensive.
sciborg3,
If you don't use the tools of course D&DI is worthless. However, if you use them, chances are you can easily justify the cost.
Game Table
Yes, others may be available, but...
* D&DI includes a martialing system which allows running of public games meaning that you don't need to know people to play games before hand. Newbies can find people to play with, existing folks can run virtual conventions, game days, regular groups can put fill seats for missing members, etc.
* D&DI includes built-in VOIP which means that you don't have to fiddle with third-party VOIP programs which non-techical folks might not have a hope of getting to work.
* You can load maps in from Dungeon Builder.
Dungeon Builder
A DM running a regular game day, public events, etc. can easily write say 50 four hour adventures per year. Using Dunjinni ($50) or something, and Word to actually write up encounters and such, that could easily take 4 hours per week. (I suspect most DMs just write up simple notes, but hey...) Lets assume that these tools saved even 25% of the time to make up the adventures. That would be 50 yours of prep-times saved per year.
Maybe there is something else out there cheaper, but I haven't found it yet.
Character Builder
I still use modified Excel spreadsheets. They are not great or automated. I likely spend a couple of hours every character just dealing with Excel to get the layout correct, plus having to look up and copy out abilties and powers. I then have to repeat each time I level. If D&DI saves me one hour per character, or ten minutes per level, it likely saves me 20 hours a year. Power cards would be helpful.
I've looked at other character systems... most are incompete or are too technical to non-Excel/computer folks.
Character Visualizer
I do insert character pictures and it is a bit annoying to look for artwork which really captures the character. I'm not sure the results would be as good as pictures on the net, but if it was... it would certainly save time.
Compendium
Likely of little benefit, but searching through online is useful and it likely is better to have a more complete source than say Wiki or SRD sites.
Magazines
If you read, 24 magazines a month is likely a good deal.
If you don't care for any of these benefits, or don't value your own time, then perhaps other tools will worthwhile or less expensive.
24 magazines a month huh?
Basically, D&Di are for people who don't want to put the extra effort forward to make their game special or different from anyone else. They wanna use premade adventures with premade characters(premade as in 4e forces you to stick to a specific role with little in the ways of class customization). People who use D&Di will focus more on combat specifics and tactics rather than wasting any time with role playing their characters personality and chatting with NPCs.
Theres a lot of other examples I could give, but I've made my point.
24 magazines a month huh?
Basically, D&Di are for people who don't want to put the extra effort forward to make their game special or different from anyone else. They wanna use premade adventures with premade characters(premade as in 4e forces you to stick to a specific role with little in the ways of class customization). People who use D&Di will focus more on combat specifics and tactics rather than wasting any time with role playing their characters personality and chatting with NPCs.
Theres a lot of other examples I could give, but I've made my point.
Im sure he meant 24 a year. You im sure knew that but thought it funny to claim you didn't.
And from my understanding, the DDI game table really isn't much different than if you were around a physical table with dungeon tiles. Im not sure if 4e forces you into anything, tho it does define the roles more than previous editions. However whats nice about DDI is you have more room to do stuff as you can draw your own maps (yes you can claim that other programs can do that, but we are talking about DDI).
Im sure he meant 24 a year. You im sure knew that but thought it funny to claim you didn't.
And from my understanding, the DDI game table really isn't much different than if you were around a physical table with dungeon tiles. Im not sure if 4e forces you into anything, tho it does define the roles more than previous editions. However whats nice about DDI is you have more room to do stuff as you can draw your own maps (yes you can claim that other programs can do that, but we are talking about DDI).
Actually D&Di can't do anything, cause its not out yet and won't be for 3-4 months, maybe longer. I hope your not relying on wizards amazing reputation when it comes to getting D&D software out on time. They made 4e and D&Di to take the virtual table top market and keep it all for themselves and make lots of money for it. 4e was designed for easy use in a VTT environment, built specifically for a program that charges people to play a game that, otherwise, would be playing for free on any other VTT or with friends at home. They are basically saying to the new generation, "Hey you pay to play MMOs, why not pay to play D&D too? D&D is now an MMO in an book. Of course you "can" play it at home with your friends, but wouldn't it be better to play on the computer with !!ZOMG!! 3D!!"
Actually D&Di can't do anything, cause its not out yet and won't be for 3-4 months, maybe longer. I hope your not relying on wizards amazing reputation when it comes to getting D&D software out on time. They made 4e and D&Di to take the virtual table top market and keep it all for themselves and make lots of money for it. 4e was designed for easy use in a VTT environment, built specifically for a program that charges people to play a game that, otherwise, would be playing for free on any other VTT or with friends at home. They are basically saying to the new generation, "Hey you pay to play MMOs, why not pay to play D&D too? D&D is now an MMO in an book. Of course you "can" play it at home with your friends, but wouldn't it be better to play on the computer with !!ZOMG!! 3D!!"
I get the distinct impression that you are missing the market for which DDI is targeting. I somehow doubt that they are targeting people who already play around a table and probably don't plan on changing that. What they want is people in the middle of no where, where there aren't many players to be able to get on and play online. The other aspect is people who are either too lazy to find a local group or prefer to play things online. You (and many others) present ways that they can play "free" online, yet most of the free tools aren't anywhere near DDI and the ones that you do pay for I think suck. Obviously your opinion is different on those tools, but then DDI is not for you.
And as I have stated in previous posts, and I can't imagine im the only one but if I had $15 a month to budget/use/whatever for a game and I can get several sessions (either a few long ones or just playing for an hour or two a night) out of DDI, im going to do the DDI route. Luckily I have the money to do both, as well as buy v minis as I think it adds something. If nothing else, DDI comes out and people go "Wow, I have heard about Dungeons and Dragons but never really figured how I could get together with people. Now I have all these tools and a community to play with." and it gets more people interested in D&D as a whole which is one of the big points of 4e in general for WOTC. They have a vested interest in making the tools good. First, if its decent people will get the subscription. Plus if its good enough, it can grab people that would never have bought the 4e books to play.
Obviously the delay has hurt this endeavor, but like all software (which FG and Battlegrounds for me don't fall into this) I would rather them delay it and make it great with few bugs then to release products that may do a very base job of doing VTT but are buggy and difficult to use. Never mind the online component.
Im sure he meant 24 a year. You im sure knew that but thought it funny to claim you didn't.
And from my understanding, the DDI game table really isn't much different than if you were around a physical table with dungeon tiles. Im not sure if 4e forces you into anything, tho it does define the roles more than previous editions. However whats nice about DDI is you have more room to do stuff as you can draw your own maps (yes you can claim that other programs can do that, but we are talking about DDI).
Would you please stop replying to the twit, I suspect I might have earned a few replies from that user/abuser but I will not waste my time on a thread that s/he/it is listed as last poster.
Would you please stop replying to the twit, I suspect I might have earned a few replies from that user/abuser but I will not waste my time on a thread that s/he/it is listed as last poster.
Your right, I have a knee jerk reaction to reply to stupidity. Ill stop.
Would you please stop replying to the twit, I suspect I might have earned a few replies from that user/abuser but I will not waste my time on a thread that s/he/it is listed as last poster.
I'm sure s/he/it is having as much fun as me debating back and forth. And its not like I'm posting just to be the last poster. I just enjoy a good debate. Forums are great for sharing opinions. Fortunately, I don't sink so low as to call people names. That really is kind of immature isn't it. Deserving or Not.
I get the distinct impression that you are missing the market for which DDI is targeting. I somehow doubt that they are targeting people who already play around a table and probably don't plan on changing that. What they want is people in the middle of no where, where there aren't many players to be able to get on and play online. The other aspect is people who are either too lazy to find a local group or prefer to play things online. You (and many others) present ways that they can play "free" online, yet most of the free tools aren't anywhere near DDI and the ones that you do pay for I think suck. Obviously your opinion is different on those tools, but then DDI is not for you.
And as I have stated in previous posts, and I can't imagine im the only one but if I had $15 a month to budget/use/whatever for a game and I can get several sessions (either a few long ones or just playing for an hour or two a night) out of DDI, im going to do the DDI route. Luckily I have the money to do both, as well as buy v minis as I think it adds something. If nothing else, DDI comes out and people go "Wow, I have heard about Dungeons and Dragons but never really figured how I could get together with people. Now I have all these tools and a community to play with." and it gets more people interested in D&D as a whole which is one of the big points of 4e in general for WOTC. They have a vested interest in making the tools good. First, if its decent people will get the subscription. Plus if its good enough, it can grab people that would never have bought the 4e books to play.
Obviously the delay has hurt this endeavor, but like all software (which FG and Battlegrounds for me don't fall into this) I would rather them delay it and make it great with few bugs then to release products that may do a very base job of doing VTT but are buggy and difficult to use. Never mind the online component.
I'm sure 4e was built to target the MMO generations considering it has the MMO style leveling system, which is my opinion but I'm sure many will agree with me. And I'm sure D&Di was built for people who are too lazy to form groups or drive to their friends house once a week. People in the middle of no where and are too lazy to make things work so they can play with people online will wait around until WotC finally releases D&Di. Of course WotC thought about and counting those special people who have loads of money to throw around and will buy just about anything thats piled in front of their face.
Also, every VTT that is out and works is better than D&Di at the time, and for at least 3 months, cause there is no D&Di. People who want to look for people who will play online with them but are too lazy to search anywhere but D&Ds main site will have to sit and wait for months to find a group.
I'm targeting those people who don't want to wait, so they can play with their friends or find new people. I want them to have fun like I do. I play every week with people all the way across the country. I implore you people don't wait for D&Di, find friends now, and play now by looking for alternatives to D&Di. And when D&Di comes out you'll be able to honestly say and judge whether or not you really need a 3d environment to have fun playing D&D. I've been playing D&D for about 13 years I've used minis for about 1 week. They make combat easier but the rest of the fun is in roleplaying and hanging out with people you like. If you want to wait thats cool, but there are people out there who don't even know there is an alternative and need guidance.
I AM THEIR MESSENGER!!!
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.
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Just kidding
but anyways just give it a go, if you need 3D thats cool, but don't stick up for a product you've never even seen in action or used.
People who use D&Di will focus more on combat specifics and tactics rather than wasting any time with role playing their characters personality and chatting with NPCs.
What evidence to you have of this?
Folks are already playing D&D online. Whether using virtual meeting software, VOIP, teleconferences, web-cams, etc.... it has already been tried. Roleplaying is the one area which works absolutely fine. You can describe things, talk with NPCs, etc. You can e-mail handouts, use meeting software to display graphics, etc. Combat is the only real problem with these systems. Without being able to see a battlemap, it takes ages to describe the situation, target spells, move figs, etc. A combat can take days to run online.
I have seen RPGA events run online. Works fine for folks who can't get to conventions or who live in remote areas. Roleplaying is the one thing you can easily do.
I don't know why you think that just because the game goes online that it is going to turn into a minatures battle? Why should it? Why wouldn't the players want to visit the inn, stop and ask questions, want a description of the travel through the forest, etc.? In fact, that is its selling point. I don't see why folks would toss that all away given that all they have to do is talk.
middlemonster,
What evidence to you have of this?
Folks are already playing D&D online. Whether using virtual meeting software, VOIP, teleconferences, web-cams, etc.... it has already been tried. Roleplaying is the one area which works absolutely fine. You can describe things, talk with NPCs, etc. You can e-mail handouts, use meeting software to display graphics, etc. Combat is the only real problem with these systems. Without being able to see a battlemap, it takes ages to describe the situation, target spells, move figs, etc. A combat can take days to run online.
I have seen RPGA events run online. Works fine for folks who can't get to conventions or who live in remote areas. Roleplaying is the one thing you can easily do.
I don't know why you think that just because the game goes online that it is going to turn into a minatures battle? Why should it? Why wouldn't the players want to visit the inn, stop and ask questions, want a description of the travel through the forest, etc.? In fact, that is its selling point. I don't see why folks would toss that all away given that all they have to do is talk.
I know, your right, I was just being sarcastic. I just like to disagree sometimes. Taking the opposing side, even if you don't believe it, is a very enlightening experience.
DDi would be worth $15 a month and more to me if it would allow my once regular group to game again, even if we were only able to play once a month for a few hours. The 3rd party software is simply not high enough in quality and the metrics involved in real time communication from africa to Wisconsin to Montana and back makes using multiple programs undesirable from a logistic point of view.
That said, the fact that DDi is not ready is really only a minor annoyance. As it is, I can play in person with a variety of local groups (SE Wisconsin is an awesome place to be a gamer), I can play online using the software that isn't really up to snuff, and I can't play with my once regular group. Exactly the same situation I was in just a few weeks ago. It will take several weeks and possibly months to even have a compelling campaign designed from scratch or convert my detailed 3.5 campaign converted to 4E depending on which way I go and any additional time I have to refine encounters and add depth to early scenarios will pay off in dividends as the campaign progresses.
I would rather wait for DDi to be seamless than have a set of partial-function applications that will end up in the same category as the 3rd party apps, undesirable.
But it what you say about the 15$/month is true, sorry but it will not work that much. First, people that play DnD play another games, not only this one. So they don't all have that 15$ a month. Heh, cumul it that is $180 per person for one year of DDI, that a lot of cash ! Normally you are 4, so it is $720 per year that your team use to play online and have some program to help them more easely/rapidly than with the book, dice and a physical character sheet. That $720 can buy a looooooooottttttt of thing if you speak in term of DnD books. You could buy all the 4E books that will go out in the next two years and more ! And the guest passes don't seem that great enough.
Make it $5 and that could be great. For 100 000 players with a $5 package deal, it is 6 million more in the hands of Wizards. In 2007 they done approximatively 124.3 million in revenue. At $5, DDI could represent a whole 5% of that income. At $15, it could be 14.5% ... a lot. And don't forget that if you need to buy the tile/miniature, it could be another downside of it.
At the first sight of it, when they said what was 4E and what was coming with it I were "Woww ... incredible. That could change the face of how whe play DnD if all that was easely accessible by the large pool of DnD gamers". But eh, will see. I hope they'll but packages so someone that only want the programs and not the magazines could get it with a one time payment, paying after only for the tiles/miniatures.
Conclusion, it's like paying double for the stock. Even if you don't pay the book physically, it is around $120 a year with the one year plan.
But $120 per years, with access to all the 4E books and playing your games with guest access for the players and only one person with the whole access could be viable. But it can't be compared to having the books physically.
P.S. : Sorry for my english, not my born language. And it's late here so maybe I'm losing some points/didn't see them in the FAQ, etc. Don't be rude with me ;)
People keep talking about "running all these apps" for vtts and that D&Di is just one app, but the Gamers Table is just a dice roller, a voip, and a miniature table. It may have some quick references, but most of it is going to be manually operated by the DM and players. The character visualizer, the character builder, the DM toolkit, the compendium, and everything else are separate apps that you have to run in separate windows and don't connect with other applications. They are just used to make things that you can import into the gamers table. Other 3rd party vtts do that, they just don't have the 3D. Your paying that $10 a month for 3D graphics and thats it. Some people say that the magazines are great, but most of them aren't willing to pay the 10 a month to just get the one magazine they want in a PDF format when they can go get a physical copy down at the store for a couple bucks. Most people just wanna use the applications and then go back to the vtts there using. The character visualizer and the Game Table are only special cause they have 3D graphics. Other than the 3D graphics D&Di is no different than any other vtt, oh yeah and D&Di is more expensive.
All sarcasm aside, making a claim that $15 a month is beyond your ability to afford, and your friends for that matter, is rediculous. I spent years as a door to door salesman, and anyone that eats 3 meals a day can afford to make a $2000 investment on a 3 year plan. Clearly if you can afford to eat you can afford to use DDi, possibly not make the yearly rate if it is a one time payment, but at $0.50 a day you CAN afford it.
Sorry to hear that you and your friends don't have a disposable income of $0.50 a day. That really is a tragedy. Its amazing that you have access to a computer, a connection to the internet in a location that allows you to DL and use applications, and the ability to purchase costly rules books. In the state of destitution you must be in with so little disposable income how do you manage to do simple things like clean yourself, eat, and travel to and from the place you live to the place you ask the government for free cheese.
All sarcasm aside, making a claim that $15 a month is beyond your ability to afford, and your friends for that matter, is rediculous. I spent years as a door to door salesman, and anyone that eats 3 meals a day can afford to make a $2000 investment on a 3 year plan. Clearly if you can afford to eat you can afford to use DDi, possibly not make the yearly rate if it is a one time payment, but at $0.50 a day you CAN afford it.
I just died laughing reading this as I have wanted to say something like this for days but didn't know the best way to put it. Well done sir.
DDI look pretty good by my opinion. It is a great way to help people play DnD without thinking of "Ok now I can't go out because of ....", "I don't have a car to go to my game ...", etc.
But it what you say about the 15$/month is true, sorry but it will not work that much. First, people that play DnD play another games, not only this one. So they don't all have that 15$ a month. Heh, cumul it that is $180 per person for one year of DDI, that a lot of cash ! Normally you are 4, so it is $720 per year that your team use to play online and have some program to help them more easely/rapidly than with the book, dice and a physical character sheet. That $720 can buy a looooooooottttttt of thing if you speak in term of DnD books. You could buy all the 4E books that will go out in the next two years and more ! And the guest passes don't seem that great enough.
Make it $5 and that could be great. For 100 000 players with a $5 package deal, it is 6 million more in the hands of Wizards. In 2007 they done approximatively 124.3 million in revenue. At $5, DDI could represent a whole 5% of that income. At $15, it could be 14.5% ... a lot. And don't forget that if you need to buy the tile/miniature, it could be another downside of it.
At the first sight of it, when they said what was 4E and what was coming with it I were "Woww ... incredible. That could change the face of how whe play DnD if all that was easely accessible by the large pool of DnD gamers". But eh, will see. I hope they'll but packages so someone that only want the programs and not the magazines could get it with a one time payment, paying after only for the tiles/miniatures.
Conclusion, it's like paying double for the stock. Even if you don't pay the book physically, it is around $120 a year with the one year plan.
But $120 per years, with access to all the 4E books and playing your games with guest access for the players and only one person with the whole access could be viable. But it can't be compared to having the books physically.
P.S. : Sorry for my english, not my born language. And it's late here so maybe I'm losing some points/didn't see them in the FAQ, etc. Don't be rude with me ;)
Well unfortunately if you don't have the resources to play D&Di and all your other games you have two choices. Drop some of your other games or don't play D&Di. $15.00 month isn't really that expensive for what it provides. But that's just my opinion.
Is it must me or is every useful aspect of the DDI save perhaps the magazines (which I hope we can buy separately) covered by a free product? Problem is I don't think wizards knows just how much of the DDI has been done.
If anyone can point me to free or one-time-pay things that replace aspects of the DDI, it'd be much appreciated.
Looks like WOTC is going to ban all $e products that do anything that DDi maight ever do.
Read the GSL posts in that section.
WOTC wants no other program to be made, and looks like they may start hunting T$R style, for those who remeber the attacks on fan sites right before T$R died.
Lee
Sorry to hear that you and your friends don't have a disposable income of $0.50 a day. That really is a tragedy. Its amazing that you have access to a computer, a connection to the internet in a location that allows you to DL and use applications, and the ability to purchase costly rules books. In the state of destitution you must be in with so little disposable income how do you manage to do simple things like clean yourself, eat, and travel to and from the place you live to the place you ask the government for free cheese.
All sarcasm aside, making a claim that $15 a month is beyond your ability to afford, and your friends for that matter, is rediculous. I spent years as a door to door salesman, and anyone that eats 3 meals a day can afford to make a $2000 investment on a 3 year plan. Clearly if you can afford to eat you can afford to use DDi, possibly not make the yearly rate if it is a one time payment, but at $0.50 a day you CAN afford it.
But the issue is
15 a month
then how much per mini
how much per tile
so on and so on
That 15 could turn into 20 or 30 or more they will not say, even though all that for a real product would have been set long before now.
So 15 is the MIN BASE, no one but WOTC knows the real cost monthly to really play it and they are not saying.
After the 100 USD outlay for books. Of Course.
Just shutting down fan tools because they can not get DDi out and are worried it will not do anything close to what they have promised.
(see DM Tool Kit posts and GSL Posts for more on the return of T$R)
Lee
Sorry to hear that you and your friends don't have a disposable income of $0.50 a day. That really is a tragedy. Its amazing that you have access to a computer, a connection to the internet in a location that allows you to DL and use applications, and the ability to purchase costly rules books. In the state of destitution you must be in with so little disposable income how do you manage to do simple things like clean yourself, eat, and travel to and from the place you live to the place you ask the government for free cheese.
All sarcasm aside, making a claim that $15 a month is beyond your ability to afford, and your friends for that matter, is rediculous. I spent years as a door to door salesman, and anyone that eats 3 meals a day can afford to make a $2000 investment on a 3 year plan. Clearly if you can afford to eat you can afford to use DDi, possibly not make the yearly rate if it is a one time payment, but at $0.50 a day you CAN afford it.
I've never claimed I can't afford it. I'm claiming it's not worth what they are charging. When someone purchases something they like to feel like they are getting an acceptable bargain, and paying monthly for two relatively flat programs? no way.
Anyway, here's another great program that's only $40 flat:
http://www.dundjinni.com/
Dundjinni Feature Summary:
* Map Creation
* Import Objects: PNG
* Export Maps: PNG, JPG, BMP
* Scalable Printing
* Adventure Creation
* Import XML data
* Adventure Export: HTML, XML
* Art Pack: Dungeon
* Art Pack: Wild
* Token Pack: Reaper Characters
* Token Pack: Reaper Monsters
* Stat Pack: SRD 3.0
* Stat Pack: SRD 3.5
* Stat Pack: Monsternomicon
* Stat Pack: Book of Fiends
* Stat Pack: Denizen's of Avadnu
* Stat Pack: Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed
* Stat Pack: Eldritch Might series
Character Builder
I still use modified Excel spreadsheets. They are not great or automated. I likely spend a couple of hours every character just dealing with Excel to get the layout correct, plus having to look up and copy out abilties and powers. I then have to repeat each time I level. If D&DI saves me one hour per character, or ten minutes per level, it likely saves me 20 hours a year. Power cards would be helpful.
I've looked at other character systems... most are incompete or are too technical to non-Excel/computer folks.
Compendium
Likely of little benefit, but searching through online is useful and it likely is better to have a more complete source than say Wiki or SRD sites.
Magazines
If you read, 24 magazines a month is likely a good deal.
It is also worth pointing out that the first two, legally, could only be put out by WOTC since the Builder and Compendium would have to reprint copyrighted material.
The magazines are a little more gray. The content of the magazines obviously couldn't legally be reprinted, but people may find other online magazine or pdfs to be better.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/charactervisualizer
In fact, I could just take a screen capture from Oblivion or one of the new CRPGs (heck even WoW) and have a better looking character.
This looks a beta for Morrowind:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/charactervisualizer
In fact, I could just take a screen capture from Oblivion or one of the new CRPGs (heck even WoW) and have a better looking character.
Respectfully DDi is a lot more then the character visualizer and personally I like it. That's just me, and I can understand that you don't. However that doesn't make DDi worthless. Someone else did this earlier, (don't remember where or who) but I think it's a good example so I'll provide it again. Lets break down DDi
$5.00 Dragon Magazine
$5.00 Dungeon Magazine
$5.00 The rest of the components.
I fail to see how that can not be considered good value for money. Then again, that's just me.
Lets break down DDi
$5.00 Dragon Magazine
$5.00 Dungeon Magazine
$5.00 The rest of the components.
I fail to see how that can not be considered good value for money. Then again, that's just me.
If you actually want all 3 things, it's a good deal. If you only want one or two of them, it's not exactly a bargain.
Way too overpriced and underfeatured. Pretty graphics aren't going to make a game play better. Especially when you can do it with minimal lag with any old IRC room and a dice bot.
Respectfully DDi is a lot more then the character visualizer and personally I like it. That's just me, and I can understand that you don't. However that doesn't make DDi worthless. Someone else did this earlier, (don't remember where or who) but I think it's a good example so I'll provide it again. Lets break down DDi
$5.00 Dragon Magazine
$5.00 Dungeon Magazine
$5.00 The rest of the components.
I fail to see how that can not be considered good value for money. Then again, that's just me.
It's per month, and it's PDFs of the magazines. When you take out printing, shipping and stocking costs, those magazines aren't worth $5 a piece, more like, 2 or 3. That leaves $4 for the components, which are already availiable for free, and it's a RECURRING bill, so you'll be paying for those components forever when a $30-$50 one time cost will get a premium online game tool that works better. Even less for Fantasy Grounds if you just get the player tool.
No matter how you look at it D&Di is not worth the money at all.
Both of you make interesting points. However I disagree. From what I've read and seen of the total package being offered by DDi it's more then worth it. Sure there are free packages out there, which is great if that what you prefer, however I believe that DDi will offer a level of integration between the packages as a whole that other products can not match, or if they can match it, not without a whole lot of extra work on the part of the DM. I also believe that the software packages being offered are more then worth the price being asked.
But that's beside the point. DDi hasn't been released yet, so we can't pass judgment on it. I can only go on the information that is currently available as you.
Based on the information available I intend to subscribe to DDi and use it as my VT of choice to play D&D and interact with members of the DDi online community. That's my decision, for me the product is worth it. It may not be so for you, which is great. Play the game however you wish, using whatever VT you wish and I wish you both happy gaming.
However making sweeping statements such as DDi is worthless, isn't very helpful or to be fair completely accurate. You may not see the value of the product, that doesn't mean that others wont either. Personally I'm glad WOTC is taking their time with DDi, because I want it to be the very best it can be when it's released.
Having said all that, I'm sure that nothing I say will sway you in the least. So I'm prepared to agree to disagree with you on DDI
Raven
Hi GameJunkieJim and heruca,
Both of you make interesting points. However I disagree. From what I've read and seen of the total package being offered by DDi it's more then worth it. Sure there are free packages out there, which is great if that what you prefer, however I believe that DDi will offer a level of integration between the packages as a whole that other products can not match, or if they can match it, not without a whole lot of extra work on the part of the DM. I also believe that the software packages being offered are more then worth the price being asked.
But that's beside the point. DDi hasn't been released yet, so we can't pass judgment on it. I can only go on the information that is currently available as you.
Based on the information available I intend to subscribe to DDi and use it as my VT of choice to play D&D and interact with members of the DDi online community. That's my decision, for me the product is worth it. It may not be so for you, which is great. Play the game however you wish, using whatever VT you wish and I wish you both happy gaming.
However making sweeping statements such as DDi is worthless, isn't very helpful or to be fair completely accurate. You may not see the value of the product, that doesn't mean that others wont either. Personally I'm glad WOTC is taking their time with DDi, because I want it to be the very best it can be when it's released.
Having said all that, I'm sure that nothing I say will sway you in the least. So I'm prepared to agree to disagree with you on DDI
Raven
I agree with everything you said. I would suggest you stop arguing the point. The trolls/haters will continue to troll/hate and those of us advocating rational thought and patience will continue to do so. The two are mutually opposite and arguing has done nothing but anger me to the point of wanting to leave the boards. I have instead decided to stop arguing these points and have mainly shifted my attention to the main 4e parts as at least discussions rather than hate fests seem to be a little more balanced.
However, in whatever path you choose I wish you luck.
I agree with everything you said. I would suggest you stop arguing the point. The trolls/haters will continue to troll/hate and those of us advocating rational thought and patience will continue to do so. The two are mutually opposite and arguing has done nothing but anger me to the point of wanting to leave the boards. I have instead decided to stop arguing these points and have mainly shifted my attention to the main 4e parts as at least discussions rather than hate fests seem to be a little more balanced.
However, in whatever path you choose I wish you luck.
Hi Gizmoiscariot,
I agree with you. I'm at the stage where I'm getting pretty angry and frustrated too with all the arguments . As far as I'm concerned my last post says everything I wanted to say on the matter of DDi. I like it, I'm going to subscribe to it and have fun.
Best of luck to you too in all that you do
Hi Gizmoiscariot,
I agree with you. I'm at the stage where I'm getting pretty angry and frustrated too with all the arguments . As far as I'm concerned my last post says everything I wanted to say on the matter of DDi. I like it, I'm going to subscribe to it and have fun.
Best of luck to you too in all that you do
Yeah its hard to wade through all the hate and venom to find decent posts. I was more hoping this forum would be more about peoples plans on what they want to do with DDI, question about its features (and even level headed discussion about features that are apparently missing that would be good to have), among many other things. Instead I don't think I have seen one thread yet that is not derailed into either an argument over price, the lack of a mac client or WOTC lackluster of handling the launch of 4e.
Price is what it is, if people would just say "I don't like the price and heres a small reason why." Instead people advertise and spam the crap out of the forums to use other VTT tools that in my opinion suck compared to what DDI has hopefully in store.
The mac client has been discussed to death and im done with this one.
And the WOTC issue, they screwed up and admitted it. Not sure what else we can ask other than them to sacrifice their first borns or some other meaningless sacrifice that helps no one.
What I would love WOTC do is take D&Di General, rename it "D&Di Haters", let people continue to post their useless hate and make a new D&Di General" that the haters can't get in. But unfortunately, thats a dream ;p
Off to bed I go.
Hi GameJunkieJim and heruca,
Both of you make interesting points. However I disagree.
Which part of my above post do you disagree with, exactly? Do you actually think it's a great deal to pay $15/month if you only want, say, a subscription to Dragon magazine?
Please don't lump me in with the haters/detractors. I hope DDI is a success. I just wish either the monthly fee was lower, or that the DDI components would be made available piecemeal, rather than packaged in an all-or-nothing bundle.
Hi GameJunkieJim and heruca,
Both of you make interesting points. However I disagree. From what I've read and seen of the total package being offered by DDi it's more then worth it. Sure there are free packages out there, which is great if that what you prefer, however I believe that DDi will offer a level of integration between the packages as a whole that other products can not match, or if they can match it, not without a whole lot of extra work on the part of the DM. I also believe that the software packages being offered are more then worth the price being asked.
But that's beside the point. DDi hasn't been released yet, so we can't pass judgment on it. I can only go on the information that is currently available as you.
Raven
By that same token, you should look at Fantasy Grounds before you make such judgments. At least I'm basing my opinion on things I've seen with my own eyes. Based on the tech demo shown on YouTube of the D&Di tools, FG works better, runs faster, and has every feature leaps and bounds over it except for a lag inducing 3-D render board.
If you play with D&Di for 6 years you've spent over $300 worth just on the tools (after removing the value of the magazines) This is compared to a one time investment of $50 for the DM kit, or around $25 for the player toolkit.
Don't even have to play FG, try any one of a hundred other ones. To top it off, you get a much larger community and the option to play other RPGs with the same tools. D&Di can't do that either. All around you get a bad deal, it's simple logic.
Wizards can't even keep lag out of a simple message board, what makes you think D&Di is going to work?
I agree with everything you said. I would suggest you stop arguing the point. The trolls/haters will continue to troll/hate and those of us advocating rational thought and patience will continue to do so. The two are mutually opposite and arguing has done nothing but anger me to the point of wanting to leave the boards. I have instead decided to stop arguing these points and have mainly shifted my attention to the main 4e parts as at least discussions rather than hate fests seem to be a little more balanced.
However, in whatever path you choose I wish you luck.
I disagree with everything you said. I would suggest you stop arguing the point. The Cheerleaders/Fanboys will continue to Cheer/Be Sheep and those of us advocating rational thought in the fact that wizards was either willfully ignorant or highly deceptive will continue to do so. The two are mutually opposite.
See I can make blanket statements to insult people without having to have a point to.
Seriously I don't get how anyone can see the massive pile of fail this has been so far and not expect a little more accountability from wizards.
No one wanted the books delayed to make them come out with D&DI most would just have loved to be visibly informed that the setup wouldn't be ready after finding out your screwed you find out this wonky pricing structure with not only an overpriced monthly fee that you had begrudgingly decided to go ahead and pay, but they see fit to add a fee for V minis as well. Its just universally stupid and I expect it to sink the entire ship at this point. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they will lose at least 25% of the people they could have hooked with a monthly fee alone lets say 25% of those don't buy 4 ed at all since they can only play online. theres quite a bit of lost revenue in there.
I disagree with everything you said. I would suggest you stop arguing the point. The Cheerleaders/Fanboys will continue to Cheer/Be Sheep and those of us advocating rational thought in the fact that wizards was either willfully ignorant or highly deceptive will continue to do so. The two are mutually opposite.
See I can make blanket statements to insult people without having to have a point to.
Seriously I don't get how anyone can see the massive pile of fail this has been so far and not expect a little more accountability from wizards.
No one wanted the books delayed to make them come out with D&DI most would just have loved to be visibly informed that the setup wouldn't be ready after finding out your screwed you find out this wonky pricing structure with not only an overpriced monthly fee that you had begrudgingly decided to go ahead and pay, but they see fit to add a fee for V minis as well. Its just universally stupid and I expect it to sink the entire ship at this point. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they will lose at least 25% of the people they could have hooked with a monthly fee alone lets say 25% of those don't buy 4 ed at all since they can only play online. theres quite a bit of lost revenue in there.
Interesting that you prove my point.
V minis I don't have an issue with. And being informed would have been great and wotc failed on that. However, that has been addressed and admitted to by Ken Troop. All im saying is lets move on. That has already past.
And for the WOTC who may read this, one thing that everyone would like to know asap is the v mini pricing. If we are talking about $5 for 20 v minis or something, if done well I could swallow that (and I honestly don't care for those that can't at this point). So I hope wotc offers up more infos on how many v minis you get with DDI and how much new ones cost. Thats the only real question at this point for me.
Sorry to hear that you and your friends don't have a disposable income of $0.50 a day. That really is a tragedy. Its amazing that you have access to a computer, a connection to the internet in a location that allows you to DL and use applications, and the ability to purchase costly rules books. In the state of destitution you must be in with so little disposable income how do you manage to do simple things like clean yourself, eat, and travel to and from the place you live to the place you ask the government for free cheese.
All sarcasm aside, making a claim that $15 a month is beyond your ability to afford, and your friends for that matter, is rediculous. I spent years as a door to door salesman, and anyone that eats 3 meals a day can afford to make a $2000 investment on a 3 year plan. Clearly if you can afford to eat you can afford to use DDi, possibly not make the yearly rate if it is a one time payment, but at $0.50 a day you CAN afford it.
The issue is, why the hell would anyone with any common sense spend more money than they have to on anything?? Would you buy a snickers bar for $20 just because you could afford it?
There's a couple old phrases that come immediately to mind:
A Penny Saved Is A Penny Earned
-and, more importantly-
A Fool And His Money Are Soon Parted
If I can get better product for cheaper, why wouldn't I? Telling someone that they can afford it so they should get it is an incredibly stupid argument. Just for the record, I spend more than $15 a month on lots of things that I could drop to pay for D&Di, but I enjoy all of them and why would I pay for something when I have something that works better for a minimum of cost?
Which part of my above post do you disagree with, exactly? Do you actually think it's a great deal to pay $15/month if you only want, say, a subscription to Dragon magazine?
Please don't lump me in with the haters/detractors. I hope DDI is a success. I just wish either the monthly fee was lower, or that the DDI components would be made available piecemeal, rather than packaged in an all-or-nothing bundle.
Hmm I've never thought of it that way. I was looking at it from the perspective of the software. You have a point. If all you were looking for was one of the magazines then DDi wouldn't make a lot of sense financially.
Also I wasn't labeling you as a hater/detractor, I was just saying that I find all the arguments / negativity frustrating and annoying and as such I didn't want to continue along that path. I've said my piece on the matter. Some may label those of us who decide to go with DDi fools. Maybe they are right. Only time will tell, however if DDi delivers what it says it will then I believe it will be worth it. Anyway enough rambling rehashing from me. Time to move onto something new.
Raven
Hmm I've never thought of it that way. I was looking at it from the perspective of the software. You have a point. If all you were looking for was one of the magazines then DDi wouldn't make a lot of sense financially.
Also I wasn't labeling you as a hater/detractor, I was just saying that I find all the arguments / negativity frustrating and annoying and as such I didn't want to continue along that path. I've said my piece on the matter. Some may label those of us who decide to go with DDi fools. Maybe they are right. Only time will tell, however if DDi delivers what it says it will then I believe it will be worth it. Anyway enough rambling rehashing from me. Time to move onto something new.
Raven
Just for the record from my understanding Dragon and Dungeon will be offerent seperately, TBD cost.
Just for the record from my understanding Dragon and Dungeon will be offerent seperately, TBD cost.
Really? Not that it makes any difference for me, but that wasn't my understanding based on what I'd read from Ken Troop. Could you provide a link where WOTC says that the mags will be available separately?
Cheers
Raven
I have no idea how you can justify the cost on this.
Really? Not that it makes any difference for me, but that wasn't my understanding based on what I'd read from Ken Troop. Could you provide a link where WOTC says that the mags will be available separately?
Cheers
Raven
How much will the digital magazines cost?
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are included as part of your subscription. Nonsubscribers will also be able to purchase individual PDF issues of the magazines (pricing TBD).
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dndifaq
About half way down the DDI faq under the D&D Insider Subscriptions area.
How much will the digital magazines cost?
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are included as part of your subscription. Nonsubscribers will also be able to purchase individual PDF issues of the magazines (pricing TBD).
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dndifaq
About half way down the DDI faq under the D&D Insider Subscriptions area.
Thanks Gizmo that clarifies things
Hmm I've never thought of it that way. I was looking at it from the perspective of the software. You have a point. If all you were looking for was one of the magazines then DDi wouldn't make a lot of sense financially.
Also I wasn't labeling you as a hater/detractor, I was just saying that I find all the arguments / negativity frustrating and annoying and as such I didn't want to continue along that path. I've said my piece on the matter. Some may label those of us who decide to go with DDi fools. Maybe they are right. Only time will tell, however if DDi delivers what it says it will then I believe it will be worth it. Anyway enough rambling rehashing from me. Time to move onto something new.
Raven
I want you to know I don't lump you in some cheerleader/fanboy category either my previous post was meant to make a point that you can blanket insult people who don't agree with you all you want it doesn't make your points more valid.
You have approached every post I've seen you make with respect for the community and a level head and thats great. I wish everyone could do that.
I just wish people could be a little more understanding of where the anger comes from. What wizards did with marketing to sell books to people who wouldn't normally buy them is wrong on many levels. It doesn't affect me that much but I'm angry on principle.
From previous experience with wizards software I'm pessimistic it will ever become a reality but if it does I'm really bummed that its more than likely going to fail because of a pricing model thats out of touch with reality because I'd really like to use it I wouldn't mind signing up for a year if I was sure that it was going to work out(not be up for an undetermined number of months then shut down since its not generating the proffit expected.) and that I'd get the content I'm paying for.
I and the group I am playing with will not however pony up the money for the books then be charged a rather high for content monthly fee (honestly no one can convince me this is going to cost them near what a MMORPG costs), and micro transactions for V minis.
they need to chose a model with either
A)Books and monthly cost preferably around 10.00 instead although I would be willing to pay yearly if wizards can instill the confidence in me that this program will not be shut down early because of lack of support. this would take an open beta testing or some such to prove the value of the content and instill a feeling of community around here
B) Books and free support with Micro transactions for extra content
Why should I pay (at minimum) $540 for tools that let me play one specific game system in 3 years when I can pay $20 or $50 for tools that let me play untold numbers of game systems in the same amount of time?
I want you to know I don't lump you in some cheerleader/fanboy category either my previous post was meant to make a point that you can blanket insult people who don't agree with you all you want it doesn't make your points more valid.
You have approached every post I've seen you make with respect for the community and a level head and thats great. I wish everyone could do that.
I just wish people could be a little more understanding of where the anger comes from. What wizards did with marketing to sell books to people who wouldn't normally buy them is wrong on many levels. It doesn't affect me that much but I'm angry on principle.
From previous experience with wizards software I'm pessimistic it will ever become a reality but if it does I'm really bummed that its more than likely going to fail because of a pricing model thats out of touch with reality because I'd really like to use it I wouldn't mind signing up for a year if I was sure that it was going to work out(not be up for an undetermined number of months then shut down since its not generating the proffit expected.) and that I'd get the content I'm paying for.
I and the group I am playing with will not however pony up the money for the books then be charged a rather high for content monthly fee (honestly no one can convince me this is going to cost them near what a MMORPG costs), and micro transactions for V minis.
they need to chose a model with either
A)Books and monthly cost preferably around 10.00 instead although I would be willing to pay yearly if wizards can instill the confidence in me that this program will not be shut down early because of lack of support. this would take an open beta testing or some such to prove the value of the content and instill a feeling of community around here
B) Books and free support with Micro transactions for extra content
Thanks Nexusvalhees,
I've tried to be constructive and respectful towards the community. I failed with my initial comments on the GSL and the game tools, however I think I resolved that.
I understand where your post was coming from
and didn't take any offense from it. I can also understand where the anger is coming from. I guess I just see things differently and have moved beyond the anger and disappointment at the delay. Personally I believe that WOTC would have loved to have had DDi released with the core books. Reading between the lines of Ken Troops posts, something happened which caused the programs to be delayed, and in the issuing chaos, communications with the fans broke down. Then Ken came on to these forums, explained what happened, admitted that they stuffed up, apologized for it and stated that they were working on making DDi the best product it could be. From my perspective there is little else WOTC can do and jumping up and down about doesn't really achieve anything. Having said that, I not saying that others should agree with me, or that they don't have any reason to feel angry.
With regards to pricing. Well I'm sure that even if they made the price a one off deal or a cheaper monthly deal that you'd still have people complaining about it. You can't please everyone. People will have to do the research on the product and it's alternatives and make up their own mind about the value of the product. I've done that and I've decided that whilst Battlegrounds and FG2 are great products, that I prefer what DDi as a total package has to offer. I've also looked at the free products, and again whilst they provide a great service to the community, DDi provides more for a price I'm happy to pay. Now if for some reason DDi falls over, then I'd most likely pick up Battlegrounds RPG as I'm very impressed with it's features set. But right now I'm happy to wait for DDi.
Ease of use, support, and for a product that they can have faith that a small in fight in developers won't cause them to stop receiving updates. Not to mention that, while a lot of the free or cheap equivalents out there (both in operating system and DM / player utilities) are workable, I have yet to find a suite of them that is delivered in a coherant and easy to manage way.
To the same point, I also have yet to find a suite of them that is stable, and those that are stable I don't particularly like. Dundjinni is probably the best example of this... the maps are cartoonish, at best, and a bit of a pain to work with. I feel better just sketching on graph paper. Probably the worst money I ever spent was on this software. Especially once I found out you only get a base set of textures and then you have to buy texture packs. But I digress.
Hopefully the tools that are released for DDi aren't as bad as some of the free ones out there, and hopefully they are a quality commercial product. In the event they are, I will happily pay $15/mo for the whole shabang.
I suppose if you're more concerned with dollars are cents than having a quality product, then you might opt not to buy into it, even if the product is top notch. That's really your choice, but I think it's silly to discount a product solely on a rather miniscule fee.
Probably the same reason that quite a few people still buy Windows or Mac computers and pay a pretty hefty sum just for the OS and the software on it that they could easily get for free or smaller fees in other places.
Ease of use, support, and for a product that they can have faith that a small in fight in developers won't cause them to stop receiving updates. Not to mention that, while a lot of the free or cheap equivalents out there (both in operating system and DM / player utilities) are workable, I have yet to find a suite of them that is delivered in a coherant and easy to manage way.
To the same point, I also have yet to find a suite of them that is stable, and those that are stable I don't particularly like. Dundjinni is probably the best example of this... the maps are cartoonish, at best, and a bit of a pain to work with. I feel better just sketching on graph paper. Probably the worst money I ever spent was on this software. Especially once I found out you only get a base set of textures and then you have to buy texture packs. But I digress.
Hopefully the tools that are released for DDi aren't as bad as some of the free ones out there, and hopefully they are a quality commercial product. In the event they are, I will happily pay $15/mo for the whole shabang.
I suppose if you're more concerned with dollars are cents than having a quality product, then you might opt not to buy into it, even if the product is top notch. That's really your choice, but I think it's silly to discount a product solely on a rather miniscule fee.
The thing is, it's not a minuscule fee.
Think about this, a comparable product, (high quality, loaded featureset) with a one time fee of $50 allows you to play dozens of game systems, where D&Di allows you to play one. One. After a year, you've already paid more than twice the cost of the more versatile tools, after 2 years you near 5 times the cost. The fee isn't terribly low for what you get, it's actually quite high comparitively.
It's not the concern about dollars and cents, it's about product value.
The one given is that it's optimized for 4E, and as such, will admittedly do that better than any other system. If all you play is 4E, the tools are perfect for you. The problem is, you can do it elsewhere for a lot less gouging.
Thanks Nexusvalhees,
I've tried to be constructive and respectful towards the community. I failed with my initial comments on the GSL and the game tools, however I think I resolved that.
I understand where your post was coming from
I'd say you've done well better than a lot of folks probably including me. I have gotten snarky on occasion when I feel that my points are reasonable or someone else's are and are just being brushed aside.
Personally I believe that WOTC would have loved to have had DDi released with the core books. Reading between the lines of Ken Troops posts, something happened which caused the programs to be delayed, and in the issuing chaos, communications with the fans broke down. Then Ken came on to these forums, explained what happened, admitted that they stuffed up, apologized for it and stated that they were working on making DDi the best product it could be. From my perspective there is little else WOTC can do and jumping up and down about doesn't really achieve anything. Having said that, I not saying that others should agree with me, or that they don't have any reason to feel angry.
I'll agree with you there. I'm sure they would have loved to have DDi out. But the fact is they had plenty of time to send out an email phone call memo anything to the store owners not to put out fliers on game day and to make some kind of visible announcement the ampersand doesn't cut it they didn't.
I'm glad Ken came forward but his apology seems lacking and insincere, his excuses are pretty lame, and he took his sweet time to get to that point. It took them over a week to put up the coming soon signs and theres still no explanation of whats going on outside of these forums. If they want to rebuild confidence they need to show that they really mean it after this debacle words just don't cut it.
With regards to pricing. Well I'm sure that even if they made the price a one off deal or a cheaper monthly deal that you'd still have people complaining about it. You can't please everyone. People will have to do the research on the product and it's alternatives and make up their own mind about the value of the product. I've done that and I've decided that whilst Battlegrounds and FG2 are great products, that I prefer what DDi as a total package has to offer. I've also looked at the free products, and again whilst they provide a great service to the community, DDi provides more for a price I'm happy to pay. Now if for some reason DDi falls over, then I'd most likely pick up Battlegrounds RPG as I'm very impressed with it's features set. But right now I'm happy to wait for DDi.
I agree that people will always have problems with the price it just comes down to the fact that many Me and my group included had come to accept paying the outrageous monthly fee so we could play with long term friends who have moved cross country now were being told that thats not enough to use the suite as advertised. Now they want me to pay for the 3d minis and thats quite frankly BS the cost to maintain the service and produce new content is more than covered with the monthly fee. If it can't sustain itself and make a frikin huge profit from 10 to 15 a month then they are doing something wrong and I shouldn't be asked to pay for their mistakes.
I personally don't like the alternatives but I will use them before I get gouged regardless of how much I like the product.
This is the meat of the question:
Why should I pay (at minimum) $540 for tools that let me play one specific game system in 3 years when I can pay $20 or $50 for tools that let me play untold numbers of game systems in the same amount of time?
Why should I pay (at minimum) $540 for tools that let me play one specific game system in 3 years when I can pay $20 or $50 for tools that let me play untold numbers of game systems in the same amount of time?
That assumes that the $20 or $50 tools start out and stay comparable to DDI over the three year period. It looks like Fantasy Grounds charges extra for new versions, adventures, supplements, and (2D) tokens. It also looks as if their base system is D20. If you have to input new systems yourself or buy an expansion, DDI sounds like it will be just as compatable to other game systems as Fantasy Grounds.
The DDI, as advertised, will start out with a rules compendium and a character builder which will be unique to legal digital tools. It may turn out that the Game Table, Dungeon Builder, online play, player matching and Character Visualizer will be as good or better than what is out there.
Furthermore, there is an expectation with these types of subscription services that the system will be improved/expanded regularly. After three years the DDI could have a lot more content/be a lot more useful than a single purchase of out of date software.
It is also worth noting the Dragon and Dungeon components. Pathfinder is $14 per PDF. Fantasy Grounds charges $5 per adventure. The DDI articles have been picking up steam with the release of 4th Edition and they are still in the free stage.
There are just too many unknowns right now to say whether spending $360 (not $540) on DDI over three years will be a better value than paying $50 for a piece of software that only has one comparable tool to DDI that never gets expanded or updated (beyond bug fixes) for free.
So I guess the meat of my response is: you should buy DDI if it provides a better value for you than competing products.
There are just too many unknowns right now to say whether spending $360 (not $540) on DDI over three years will be a better value than paying $50 for a piece of software that only has one comparable tool to DDI that never gets expanded or updated (beyond bug fixes) for free.
In fairness to Fantasy Grounds, they never charged for upgrading from FG1 to FG2.
Why should I pay (at minimum) $540 for tools that let me play one specific game system in 3 years when I can pay $20 or $50 for tools that let me play untold numbers of game systems in the same amount of time?
Wizards has stated that the Game Table doesn't adjudicate rules. It can be used as a platform for any RP, though obviously, the specific 3d visuals will be of a high fantasy flavor.
why pay for the DDi when i can play a fully developed highly rated MMORPG...or for a game closer to 4e, the old 80's version of Golden Axe or Gauntlet where every character is the same.
You appear to be misinformed about what DDi entails. DDi will not adjudicate rules. Unlike MMORPGs or video games, it will not restrict what players can do or determine the mechanics of actions for them. It is not a D&D video game. The goal is to provide a stable, frequently updated program for online gaming that includes decent servers, an area for recruiting other players, and an interface that is intuitive and easy to manage. To date, I've been unsatisfied with the numerous alternatives that detractors here keep touting. I've found they are either too buggy or too unwieldy. If DDi is no better, then yes, it will not be a worthwhile product. Of course, I will refrain from judgment until I try it out, but as it stands, you are making assertions that are untrue.
In fact, I could just take a screen capture from Oblivion or one of the new CRPGs (heck even WoW) and have a better looking character.
It's my understanding that the DDi character visualizer will provide far more options than either of those games, as well as a consistent stream of new updates and features over time. Also, it will be used in conjunction with the game table to allow players to have a decent looking miniature if they want to use the 3d miniature feature. Hence, it's not exactly the same thing, there are aspects of it that are distinct from screen captures from video games. More importantly, it is one nice aspect of an overall service that brings many features together. If you think you can get the same experience by using multiple programs, very well. You are free to do so. Though if the game table element of the program is good, I will appreciate having additional features such as the character visualizer.
It's a one way ticket to lagville.
It is my understanding that this is the year 2008, not 1997. Most people have broadband connections that can handle a fairly simple visual program, and even more have connections that can handle very complex, intensive programs. If lag is still an issue for you, I am deeply sorry. However, those of us who are privileged enough to have modern niceties will certainly appreciate the feature, assuming the game table as a whole provides a stable and elegant interface for online gaming.
Based on the tech demo shown on YouTube of the D&Di tools, FG works better, runs faster, and has every feature leaps and bounds over it except for a lag inducing 3-D render board.
DDi will not prevent you from using this alternative program. If anything, healthy competition will drive others to constantly improve their programs. DDi does not represent a threat to anything you already do. If you do not wish to use the service, you will not be required to do so.
to play other RPGs with the same tools. D&Di can't do that either.
This is actually untrue. Wizards has specifically said that D&Di can be used for any game. The Game Table does not adjudicate rules. The DM is in complete control of the mechanics.
it's simple logic.
No, it's not. I've taken numerous advanced logic courses at the graduate level. I've also taught basic formal logic for undergraduates. You are erroneously conflating logical extensions of opinions with universally valid claims. While it is true that you may be making a valid argument on a formal level based on a number of initial assertions, that does not preclude equally valid arguments in favor of DDi. It is also the case that many of the assertions that serve as the premises for your argument either have not been proven or are actually false. Hence, your case is not very compelling, and appears to be what we professional logicians refer to as 'B.S.'
Wizards can't even keep lag out of a simple message board, what makes you think D&Di is going to work?
It may work. It may not. We will have to wait and see. However, if you are going to make the case that your position is an expression of "simple logic," it would help if you avoided elementary fallacies such as the fallacy of exclusion. You make the inductive argument that message board lag (which I don't experience, for the record) implies that DDi will be laggy. However, there have been many past D&D programs (including an entire MMORPG) where people with good internet connections have had no problem playing. Hence, this bit of reasoning is plainly fallacious. While it is possible that DDi will be laggy, it does not follow from past events that this must be the case.
Seriously I don't get how anyone can see the massive pile of fail this has been so far and not expect a little more accountability from wizards.
I'm not sure how they need to be held accountable. They've released a set of books that can be used to play D&D 4th edition. If you need to play online, as other detractors have pointed out, there are means to do so. If DDi comes out later and provides a superior platform for playing online, then that will be great too. As it stands, you have not paid for the product (i.e. D&Di), thus, Wizards owes you nothing.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say they will lose at least 25% of the people they could have hooked with a monthly fee alone lets say 25% of those don't buy 4 ed at all since they can only play online. theres quite a bit of lost revenue in there.
You appear to be misinformed. You can play 4th edition offline. That's what the books are for.
The thing is, it's not a minuscule fee.
Maybe not for you, but I think $10 is worth it for the magazine content alone. I'm sorry to hear that you are financially disadvantaged, but that will have no bearing on my ability to use and enjoy a product.
Think about this, a comparable product, (high quality, loaded featureset) with a one time fee of $50 allows you to play dozens of game systems, where D&Di allows you to play one.
Once again, D&Di can be used for any game system. The program does not determine the rules or mechanics in play.
The problem is, you can do it elsewhere for a lot less gouging.
You can also do it elsewhere without the various additional features, the monthly magazines, and the regularity of updates. D&Di offers a number of features that other systems don't. If these don't appeal to you, very well, but it is far from the exact same product. It is up to you to decide whether this distinct product is worth its particular cost.
In conclusion, while I can understand that some will not find D&Di to be an appealing product, the argument that it is somehow going to be universally bad and useless, frankly, comes up short. The host of bad analogies, false claims, and histrionic rants I've seen in this thread are neither compelling nor universally valid. I am not dissuaded from trying the product for myself.
It amazes me how much time people invest into discussing a product that they don't want to buy.
This is where youa re fundamentally wrong. I belive that most of the posters here discuss DDI because it is a product we want to be able to buy. I want DDI very much, but I won't take it with the current price model in place (microtransactions ON TOP of subscription).
If folks didn't care about the product, they wouldn't be here trying to make the product better. DDI has a lot of hurdles to get past and a lot of really decent competition. They will need more than brand strength to make an impact here.
Have a nice day,
malkav
If folks didn't care about the product, they wouldn't be here trying to make the product better. DDI has a lot of hurdles to get past and a lot of really decent competition.
Most of the comments I'm seeing are either false ("You can only play 4e with it" "You can only use the game table with V-minis") or based on nothing but speculation ("It's laggy" "It doesn't have any unique features").
They aren't trying to "make a product better," they are fabricating flaws because they want to gripe about it. Suggesting features is one thing. Suggesting improvements after you've actually used the product is one thing. Making **** up about a program you've never used is quite another.
I want DDI very much, but I won't take it with the current price model in place
Okay, but most of the posts I see have nothing to do with pricing and everything to do with erroneous assumptions about the quality of the product. Whether someone thinks it's a decent value will obviously be up for them to decide, but being too poor to pay for D&Di has no bearing on the quality of the actual content. Most of the arguments I see are of the "it's the same as free products" or "I could just play NWN" nature. Hence, they are saying this product doesn't appeal to them (on the basis of false assertions about the product itself). It's not about whether Wizards is overcharging for an otherwise good product, they're arguing that the product (that they haven't used and have no intention of using) is not worth any thing at all. In fact, the title of this thread is: "DDI near worthless?"
Extending from this are the numerous claims that you can get the "same things for free." Hence, they are arguing that D&Di, in principle, should itself be free since they can already get the "same thing" without cost. Hence, for these detractors, it's all a matter of whether D&Di is ever something they'd purchase to begin with. They argue that it is not. They think, again, that it's redundant, and hence, "worthless."
So your claim that all detractors really want the product and are just upset about the pricing is flatly false.
Now, if you're upset about the pricing, then fine. Be upset. Don't buy it. But not liking the pricing does not justify the false and fabricated claims (that, in turn, are being made to justify opposition to the pricing). There's an obvious circularity to the arguments here, and that circle is being held together by a big string of bull dung.
Finally someone says what I should have said long ago, but he says it much better than I believe I could have.
Evidently, just as you failed to read my entire post, you haven't actually been reading the "reasons" people are putting forward to justify their complaints about the pricing.
Most of the comments I'm seeing are either false ("You can only play 4e with it" "You can only use the game table with V-minis") or based on nothing but speculation ("It's laggy" "It doesn't have any unique features").
They aren't trying to "make a product better," they are fabricating flaws because they want to gripe about it. Suggesting features is one thing. Suggesting improvements after you've actually used the product is one thing. Making **** up about a program you've never used is quite another.
Okay, but most of the posts I see have nothing to do with pricing and everything to do with erroneous assumptions about the quality of the product. Whether someone thinks it's a decent value will obviously be up for them to decide, but being too poor to pay for D&Di has no bearing on the quality of the actual content. Most of the arguments I see are of the "it's the same as free products" or "I could just play NWN" nature. Hence, they are saying this product doesn't appeal to them (on the basis of false assertions about the product itself). It's not about whether Wizards is overcharging for an otherwise good product, they're arguing that the product (that they haven't used and have no intention of using) is not worth any thing at all. In fact, the title of this thread is: "DDI near worthless?"
Extending from this are the numerous claims that you can get the "same things for free." Hence, they are arguing that D&Di, in principle, should itself be free since they can already get the "same thing" without cost. Hence, for these detractors, it's all a matter of whether D&Di is ever something they'd purchase to begin with. They argue that it is not. They think, again, that it's redundant, and hence, "worthless."
So your claim that all detractors really want the product and are just upset about the pricing is flatly false.
Now, if you're upset about the pricing, then fine. Be upset. Don't buy it. But not liking the pricing does not justify the false and fabricated claims (that, in turn, are being made to justify opposition to the pricing). There's an obvious circularity to the arguments here, and that circle is being held together by a big string of bull dung.
LOL 8/10 on your troll post. I almost believed you.
good job
Especially the part about me claiming that all detractors are upset about the pricing. Its really easy to prove a point I made is false when I never made the point in question.And I wasn't going to answet the rest of your post but I feel a little inspired. You don't know any more abuot the product than the rest of us. Peopel can and will make claims and offer opiniosn based on the information shown , and the products shown. Do you think people are imagining the screenshots or the compendium demos or the articles posted?
If someone has an opinion that somehting is going to suck is it any less valid trhan your opinion that it might not suck? You just never can tell really. You are ont he messages boards of a poorly marketed, late, porduct with dated looking graphics, that has stated that they will be charging full MMO fare pricing for tools that have been readily available for free for the past 5+ years. To top it off, they are charging microtransactions ont op of the subscription fees already announced. And as a final note, the information coming down from the top is next to nothing. Yet you see some type of flaw for people being upset over this or that? Or where is this list of flaws peopel are making up? I ask you here and now to provide it. You have all the facts do you? Instead of trolling why don't you jsut share your facts and end the debate?
Folks will always complain. complaining about complaining is what you are in fact doing
Your small little views are just par for the course. Thanks for the troll, why don't you falame it back up when you get some facts, and a little less venom.Have a nice,
day
malkav
LOL 8/10 on your troll post. I almost believed you.
good job
And I wasn't going to answet the rest of your post but I feel a little inspired. You don't know any more abuot the product than the rest of us. Peopel can and will make claims and offer opiniosn based on the information shown , and the products shown. Do you think people are imagining the screenshots or the compendium demos or the articles posted?
If someone has an opinion that somehting is going to suck is it any less valid trhan your opinion that it might not suck? You just never can tell really. You are ont he messages boards of a poorly marketed, late, porduct with dated looking graphics, that has stated that they will be charging full MMO fare pricing for tools that have been readily available for free for the past 5+ years. To top it off, they are charging microtransactions ont op of the subscription fees already announced. And as a final note, the information coming down from the top is next to nothing. Yet you see some type of flaw for people being upset over this or that? Or where is this list of flaws peopel are making up? I ask you here and now to provide it. You have all the facts do you? Instead of trolling why don't you jsut share your facts and end the debate?
Folks will always complain. complaining about complaining is what you are in fact doing
Have a nice,
day
malkav
Please explain to me what was wrong with WingedHussar post ? He made a very intelligent and above all polite post that was well thought out and reasoned.
@WingedHussar
You have my deepest respect. Thank you for making such great posts that say exactly how I've been feeling over this matter but haven't been able to express fully.
Regards
Raven
Please explain to me how WingedHussar was trolling? He made a very intelligent and above all polite post that was well thought out and reasoned. In fact your post above seems to be more abusive in content than his ever was.
@WingedHussar
You have my deepest respect. Thank you for making such great posts that say exactly how I've been feeling over this matter but haven't been able to express fully.
Regards
Raven
I accept your apology
I accept your apology
Respectfully I'll ask you one again, How what is wrong WingedHussar's post ?
In his original post WingedHussar went through ten different complaints that are regularly posted in this forum and addressed them one by one. You focused in on one of those complaints price and he addressed what you had to say.
Now it may be that I'm misunderstanding you. Which is why I'd like you to explain your reasoning.
Regards
Raven
DDi is not worth the money that Wizards want for you to gain access to it.
More details...
The mags are not worth anything near what the actual published physical product is. I would guess that four bucks for the both of them (Dungeons and Dragons Online Articles) and the quarterly published "best of" sold at newstands or in hobby stores (as well as ordered online) for 6 to 8 bucks.
The Character Generator is worthless as a web/client content that is slaved to an online status. Their is still scetchy details on if one could save a character on your own computer or if you have to use a "character vault" online.
The Visualizar is fluff. Period.
The gaming table is an online version of the dungeon tiles, with Vminis (and tokens! High eraser troll) that is being held back to ransom out sparingly to those that are stupid enough to buy them. 3D tiles seem to be around also. The great advantage is to play with those that are elsewhere, useless for those that get together face to face.
The DM Tools is an enigma that has not been talked about much, but seem to be the most interesting possibilities with the new, easier rules to run a game.
It isn't worth a monthly subscription, at all. Wizards need to work on stand alone products that will use DDi to update them and sell added content. This current model is epic fail.
It amazes me how much time people invest into discussing a product that they don't want to buy.
I am interested in buying it I just want whats advertised a 3d game table with tokens is not what they advertised. I have no interest in being Gouged on the price because wizards feels I'll just pony up the cash regardless of relative value because I want it.
I'm not sure how they need to be held accountable. They've released a set of books that can be used to play D&D 4th edition. If you need to play online, as other detractors have pointed out, there are means to do so. If DDi comes out later and provides a superior platform for playing online, then that will be great too. As it stands, you have not paid for the product (i.e. D&Di), thus, Wizards owes you nothing.
They owe what they marketed to the customers in several adds access to D&DI as it was advertised On game day when it was advertised to be released. They full well knew months in advance it would not make the deadline and misinformed the public to boost sales of the books. In lieu of that they can offer a real apology none of this its kind of your fault crap Ken posted and some kind of feedback to restore some shred of confidence from the community.
You appear to be misinformed. You can play 4th edition offline. That's what the books are for.
Yes I can many others cant because they don't have a gaming group. Those people may very well not bother buying the books if they don't feel like being ripped of by paying for content that any sane person would include with the already bloated monthly fee.
Oops.
I thnk I might try a 1 month subscription to see what I think. I doubt I'll play it D&D online. Its niot that $15 a mointh is expensive but its what else I can do with $15- like a subscription to WoW or another MMORPG. I would have liked PDF Dragon and Dungeon in addition to a real mag. I may pay $10 to $15 a month to play D&D online but not for the chance to buy more virtual minis so I can actually play.
Xboxlive is only $50 a year and I can play Halo 3 or Cal of Duty 4 as much as I like. $15 isn't alot of money but theres better things to do with that money. DDi had better be fantastic as I'll try it for a month or 2.
This is where youa re fundamentally wrong. I belive that most of the posters here discuss DDI because it is a product we want to be able to buy. I want DDI very much, but I won't take it with the current price model in place (microtransactions ON TOP of subscription).
If folks didn't care about the product, they wouldn't be here trying to make the product better. DDI has a lot of hurdles to get past and a lot of really decent competition. They will need more than brand strength to make an impact here.
Have a nice day,
malkav
I'm not sure which people WingedHussar is refering to, however there are those who don't have any intention of picking up DDI and yet post regularly on these forums ripping it apart.
The structure of their posts is two fold. Part one is where they complain about DDI. Part Two is where they push their favorite VVT as being superior to DDI. As Wingedhussar says, you have to wonder why these people do that.
Part Two is where they push their favorite VVT as being superior to DDI. As Wingedhussar says, you have to wonder why these people do that.
It is like how every once in a while a really outgoing cute girl will try to liven up a bar by urging people to buy a specific brand of beer or liquor. I'm sure there are some girls out there that really love Warthog Frank's Face Stomping Orange Juice, but most of the time they are just paid by the company to push their brand.
It is like how every once in a while a really outgoing cute girl will try to liven up a bar by urging people to buy a specific brand of beer or liquor. I'm sure there are some girls out there that really love Warthog Frank's Face Stomping Orange Juice, but most of the time they are just paid by the company to push their brand.
You know, if there are so many Viral Marketing jobs out there I want in. Where do I sign up? I sit on my ass in front of a computer everyday. I will spam the hell out of any message board around for a couple of bucks. So yeah, PM me.
(Or it could just be people that want to slam WotC because that wagon's pretty damn full at the moment, something tells me that one's much more likely. Though in all fairness when it comes to DDI WotC deserves to be slapped and asked WTF? more often than not.)
For some people, the cost is worth what it will provide, while for others, the cost is not worth it. Please keep in mind that whether it is worth it or not is an opinion that the person holds due to their experiences and preferences. Their opinion being different from yours in no way devalues your opinion.
I have no problem with people pointing out where they feel that WotC is going wrong with DDi and the eventual suite of planned applications. Just do so in a manner that encourages and allows for continued discussion of the topic.
I would ask all involved in this thread to avoid accusations of shilling and trolling. It serves no purpose, does not actually further discussion and draws the attention of WizOs and VCLs. I would really appreciate it if people would go back and self-edit their posts to remove the accusations so that I don't have to get the WizOs do so.
I'm not sure if my posts were one of the posts you were referring to or not,however just to be on the safe side I went through and removed any reference to trolling etc.
Regards
Raven
being such a big gamble for Wizards, one would think that more thought and sense would have been used in it's conception and implementation. As it is, DDi attempts to hoard all the useful tools and aids while superior programs/tools/aids are already out and have been for a while. With the new GSL, no one else is "licensed" to produce those aids/tools and Wizards will go after those that try and provide any alternative.
I will call it like it is. The subscription service fee is a ransom, one that I and many others will not pay.
*mudbunny*
being such a big gamble for Wizards, one would think that more thought and sense would have been used in it's conception and implementation. As it is, DDi attempts to hoard all the useful tools and aids while superior programs/tools/aids are already out and have been for a while. With the new GSL, no one else is "licensed" to produce those aids/tools and Wizards will go after those that try and provide any alternative.
I will call it like it is. The subscription service fee is a ransom, one that I and many others will not pay.
It is your prerogative to make that decision.
It is also your right to say so on these forums. I will never, ever say that people can't express themselves as long as it is:
- On-topic for the thread and forum; and
- civil
As for the GSL, the only part of the GSL that crosses both with the current software programs out there and the DDi suite of applications is the character creator. All other virtual table-top programs out there are not impacted by the GSL at all, unless the people who create it are silly start using fourth-edition terms in it.
As far as I know, most of the VTTs out there are pretty system-neutral. They have a map program, a dice-roller, and a chat program of some sort. None of that is impacted by the GSL at all.
I will call it like it is. The subscription service fee is a ransom, one that I and many others will not pay.
The only apps other companies can't legally make are those that include Intellectual Property such as copyrighted material or the use of a trademark to cause marketplace confusion.
So if WOTC is holding the DDI for ransom it is in the same way that Top Foods holds my groceries for ransom and Shell holds my fuel for ransom.
There isn't really a moral issue with charging for the DDI. Right now I'm just annoyed that it wasn't ready at the release of 4E and worried that what has been shown with the compendium is a sign of how far they are away from making a product worth paying for. If the DDI actually progresses to the point where the thought of not having access to it would bother me enough to call the fee a "ransom", then the DDI will have enough value for me to pay $10/month for it. If WOTC came out tomorrow and said I had to pay for what is in the magazines and the compendium as are they are right now, I'd laugh, walk away, and never give it another thought.
When people get really emotionally invested in a product to the point where they feel they have an inherent right to that product, that is when you know you've created something of value. That is why people got upset with Metallica for coming out against Napster and didn't get upset with Jerry & The Pacemakers.
It is your prerogative to make that decision.
It is also your right to say so on these forums. I will never, ever say that people can't express themselves as long as it is:
- On-topic for the thread and forum; and
- civil
As for the GSL, the only part of the GSL that crosses both with the current software programs out there and the DDi suite of applications is the character creator. All other virtual table-top programs out there are not impacted by the GSL at all, unless the people who create it are silly start using fourth-edition terms in it.
As far as I know, most of the VTTs out there are pretty system-neutral. They have a map program, a dice-roller, and a chat program of some sort. None of that is impacted by the GSL at all.
Thank you...
The GSL prevents companies from making 4th edition character generators. Such programs can not "copy" the rules system that makes up 4th edition without using the material that the GSL is prevent the use of.
I agree about the table top like programs, and have to say that most will end up using the more superior programs that are already available no matter if they have DDi or not.
The GSL prevents companies from making 4th edition character generators. Such programs can not "copy" the rules system that makes up 4th edition without using the material that the GSL is prevent the use of.
The GSL doesn't prevent that, copyright law prevents that.
The GSL doesn't prevent that, copyright law prevents that.
Copyright law would not. The electronic tools that are made are not a published material. Trademarks, which is different than copyrights, have more to do with the character generators than copyright.
The GSL specifically states addition concerns other than the normal copyrights.
Copyright law would not. The electronic tools that are made are not a published material. Trademarks, which is different than copyrights, have more to do with the character generators than copyright.
The GSL specifically states addition concerns other than the normal copyrights.
The electronic tools would republish copyrighted materials such as the names and descriptions of powers, magic items, classes, etc.
If an electronic tool generated the monster stat blocks from the Monster Manual it would be a copyright violation.
If an electronic tool called itself "The Electronic Monster Manual", "The DDI Monster Generator", or advertised itself as being a Dungeons and Dragons product that would be a Trademark issue.
This goes further than the copyright law.
Some of the names are not copyrighted, they are trademarks.
Copyright laws allow for passages and partial bit to be used as it would be in a character generator. Other uses is for review, for example.
The stat blocks themselves are not copyrighted. The rules for them and how they are presented are not in themselves copyrightable.
But as copyright laws concerns itself with publishes works and narrative, the use of the rules is not covered by the laws. It is covered by the GSL. Your right in that the names and such are subject to those laws, but even with changed names and such the GSL goes further into it by naming that no "character builder" or such can be released without a license.
This goes further than the copyright law.
Some of the names are not copyrighted, they are trademarks.
Copyright laws allow for passages and partial bit to be used as it would be in a character generator. Other uses is for review, for example.
The stat blocks themselves are not copyrighted. The rules for them and how they are presented are not in themselves copyrightable.
The material in the core books are published materials.
Read the credits page of your PHB it lays out what is covered under trademarks (products names) and what is covered under copyrights (All the material and artwork).
When people say that copyrights don't cover rules or mechanics that means that WOTC can't copyright the general idea of classes, levels, races, powers, etc.
Reprinting any of the contents of WOTC copyrighted works for purposes other than review or scholarship and without their permission is a copyright violation. If you want to know what you can't reprint or republish from copyrighted works put your thumb on the front cover and your index finger on the back cover, the stuff inbetweeen is protected by copyright.
If this wasn't the case the GSL couldn't restrict non-license holders from making character builders or compendiums with the material already in the program.
This is why PCGen can advertise that they will be making a version that is set up for users to create 4th Edition data sets. WOTC can't prevent other companies from making generic products. This is also why PCGen can't sell, without WOTC's permission, 4th Edition data sets. The data sets would involve reprinting copyrighted material.
Remember, the GSL in an opt in license. The rules, restrictions, stipulations etc that are unique to the GSL only apply to users of the license. Outside of that the only restriction companies face are copyright and trademark restrictions.
Any company that doesn't use the GSL can make any product that isn't protected by copyright or trademark. Those companies can absolutely compete with the DDI no matter what the conditions of the GSL are.
Basically, a company can publish an RPG with fireballs, spells, wizards, abilities that can be used every turn or that can only be used a certain number of times or under certain conditions. What other companies can't publish, w/o permission, is the Fireball entry in the PHB.
And yes you read that correctly. I can see a lot of people getting upset cause they knee jerked and decided "Well let me buy all these other one off tools that will do the same thing that DDI will do." I have learned from these forums that D&D fans seem to want a lot more than most. I for one will do what everyone should. Look at all the options and go from there.
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I don't think this is the case at all. I love 4E and was really looking forward to DDI. But I believe that wizards is seriously overestimating the value of this product. They also appear to be underfunding and understaffing on that front. This is a real problem for the company. D&D customers (note I didn't say fans) are just like any other customers. It is simply bad business to get simple stuff wrong. Wizards missed the release date, overpriced DDI, and didn't seem to understand that there are many free options available (largely because people picked up the ball when they dropped it on master tools). Honestly, buying the books, should entitle you to use DDI for free. I am not saying they shouldn't be free to set the price. But most people are not willing to pay that much for a character builder, table top, and dungeon builder. And if they are willing to pay, they probably want something that is higher quality than the demos we have seen so far. From what I can tell DDI looks like it was done on the cheap, and didn't have a lot of thought put into it. For instance, wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to include a campaign mapper, so that I could run an entire game online?
Kinda like a Halo 3 pickup game :P
It is like how every once in a while a really outgoing cute girl will try to liven up a bar by urging people to buy a specific brand of beer or liquor. I'm sure there are some girls out there that really love Warthog Frank's Face Stomping Orange Juice, but most of the time they are just paid by the company to push their brand.
Which is also stricingly similar to accounts registered at June 08 writing about how great DDI will be and that all the actual trouble is only half as bad as people make it