Check out this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1210295
But there's the revamped encounter builder, which will be enhanced to a full campaign builder. Unfortunately, noone knows by now what exactly this will include, except for, well, those people who have signed NDAs all around and can say only so tiny bits that you'd want to scream...
I don't think that is the message that we are trying to get across.
Thanks,
Mike.
The "indefinitely canned" is the interpretation that some people who are less than optimistic about the likelihood of said tools coming out are applying to the message that has been put out by WotC.
I don't think that is the message that we are trying to get across.
Thanks,
Mike.
Well, when people on these fourms ask about them and the company does not say anything offical about them, what else are people suposted to think?
In another thread today WOTC Trevor did say that the VTT is shelved for now. But IIRC that is the first offical word I have seen about the VTT in awhile.
It would be nice if WOTC put sticky threads at the top of this section of the fourms with the status of the different DDi tools. Something like:
VTT info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Character viewer info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Campagin tools: currently being worked on, will have more info soon.
Just little info from WOTC like that will go a long way I think.
Nowhere has it been implied by any WotC employee that the CV or VTT have been indefinitely canned. WotC has been quite clear that they are on the back burner for now while other things are given a higher priority.
The "indefinitely canned" is the interpretation that some people who are less than optimistic about the likelihood of said tools coming out are applying to the message that has been put out by WotC.
To be fair, they are at the very least canned until the campaign tools are done and it is unknown (or at the very least, unsaid) if they are even going to be brought back then, thus it is an indefinite amount of time. So its not at all unfair to call them "indefinitely canned".
:D I wonder if the Campaign Builder will be put on the backburner next time I check, with some new, even wider-scope (Super Ultra World Builder Tool?) project being started.
Honestly, having worked in the software industry for ~7 years myself, I don't think putting two alpha-stage projects on the backburner and starting a new project with an even wider scope bodes well for any of the projects ever seeing the light of day, and I definitely think it's the wrong move to make, but that's just my opinion. I feel for the devs working at WotC on this stuff O_o, I really do.
It would be nice if WOTC put sticky threads at the top of this section of the fourms with the status of the different DDi tools. Something like:
VTT info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Character viewer info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Campagin tools: currently being worked on, will have more info soon.
Just little info from WOTC like that will go a long way I think.
Consider it part of the FAQ... *rushes to put it in notes*.
Trevor has the ability to edit so he can update the list as he wants, but I also follow a few of the WotC employees on the forums as well as keep a weathered eye on any new news. (Plus mudbunny somehow installed an automatic poking stick on me, still can't disarm it)
On the FAQ, I've been working, but I've also been busy so it got put to the way side for a while. I haven't forgotten or abandoned it.
Honestly, having worked in the software industry for ~7 years myself, I don't think putting two alpha-stage projects on the backburner and starting a new project with an even wider scope bodes well for any of the projects ever seeing the light of day, and I definitely think it's the wrong move to make, but that's just my opinion. I feel for the devs working at WotC on this stuff O_o, I really do.
I would say from what we know, and as far as I can foresee the Campaign Tools is easier to work with. It is just data based mainly probably. With the Visualizer and Table you got to build 3d models, visualize lighting, the boards, etc. Not to mention add monthly content for them when things are updated.
I would say from what we know, and as far as I can foresee the Campaign Tools is easier to work with. It is just data based mainly probably. With the Visualizer and Table you got to build 3d models, visualize lighting, the boards, etc. Not to mention add monthly content for them when things are updated.
True, there is a lot more content in terms of 3d assets that need to be produced, but honestly, it's not really super difficult to get boatloads of that, if you can afford to hire some contractors. I was referring mainly to the scope of the software design/production side of things, where the Campaign Tools definitely seem to be of much larger scope than either the VTT or the CV. Granted, the VTT had a pretty large scope as well, but it seems to me that the Campaign Tools is even LARGER scope in terms of the programmer time required to build it.
Lighting etc. isn't hard to do, once you have it working, it just works, it's not as if you have to set it up for every scenario or any such thing (once you set up your rendering pipeline to handle lighting and shadows, it essentially "just works" (depending on the light/shadow solution that is)).
True, there is a lot more content in terms of 3d assets that need to be produced, but honestly, it's not really super difficult to get boatloads of that, if you can afford to hire some contractors. I was referring mainly to the scope of the software design/production side of things, where the Campaign Tools definitely seem to be of much larger scope than either the VTT or the CV. Granted, the VTT had a pretty large scope as well, but it seems to me that the Campaign Tools is even LARGER scope in terms of the programmer time required to build it.
Lighting etc. isn't hard to do, once you have it working, it just works, it's not as if you have to set it up for every scenario or any such thing (once you set up your rendering pipeline to handle lighting and shadows, it essentially "just works" (depending on the light/shadow solution that is)).
Sure Campaign tools have a huge scope, but I believe the way that they are being done are as a series of separate parts. A Monster Builder. An Encounter Builder. A Trap Builder (likely). A Map builder. etc Then Once you have these parts which all work great by themselves with easy data updates and such, you can then put a wrapper program around it (Campaign Tools) and make them work together to help build an adventure.
If I was in charge of the project that is how I would do it, and I'm pretty sure that is what WotC is doing.
That way you can roll out a new tool every few months, once they're going, because each part will be pretty easy to bug-fix etc. and we'll have a stream of new program content.
To be fair, they are at the very least canned until the campaign tools are done and it is unknown (or at the very least, unsaid) if they are even going to be brought back then, thus it is an indefinite amount of time. So its not at all unfair to call them "indefinitely canned".
Agreed (well, except for "canned"; I'm content with "delayed"). They will be resumed when the other things are done. Since we don't know when the other things will be done, the resumption of work on the things that are on the back burner is indefinite. That may not be the message the developers and Wizards of the Coast had hoped to impart, but it's certainly the message I get from it. Heck, WotC_Trevor says the "don't know when they'll turn their development attention back to the GameTable" in another thread.
I don't think it means "cancelled" or anything; but as far as I'm concerned, "indefinite" is exactly the correct word. It's not a value judgment; it's just the correct word.
That said, there are plenty of alternatives to what WotC is planning to produce, so I really only wanted the Character Builder.
I don't give a crap if they're official, there are at least a dozen different VTT programs out there right now. Some are bland, some rock, and there's one for every budget. I want DDI to give me stuff I can't get elsewhere or give me the best/easiest stuff.
I was disappointed with the news of the focus change at first, but the more I've considered it, the more I've realized that the Campaign Tools will be far more useful than the shelved tools.
And nothing has been canceled. That's been made pretty clear. Why people insist on flat out lying to take digs at WotC is beyond me.
Hey WhiteBaron, can you point me to the post that says they are indefintely canned so that I may correct it please.
put on hold - indefinitely sidelined, "put on the backburner" those are words directly from your colleagues.
i only added canned as my interpretation of that statement.
Anything you do not put any effort in,
Anything you do not have any timeline on,
Anything you do not even say whether or not it might be done "later"
is as good as dead.
And nothing has been canceled. That's been made pretty clear. Why people insist on flat out lying to take digs at WotC is beyond me.
Flat out lying? It's just a very reasonable interpretation of the facts presented by WOTC. Currently they have no active plans to revisit or work on the VTT or Visualizer, that will be decided in the future, after other tools are done. This is their official statement.
put on hold - indefinitely sidelined, "put on the backburner" those are words directly from your colleagues.
i only added canned as my interpretation of that statement.
Anything you do not put any effort in,
Anything you do not have any timeline on,
Anything you do not even say whether or not it might be done "later"
is as good as dead.
Flat out lying? It's just a very reasonable interpretation of the facts presented by WOTC. Currently they have no active plans to revisit or work on the VTT or Visualizer, that will be decided in the future, after other tools are done. This is their official statement.
No, "canned" is not a "very reasonable interpretation" of the statements that the VTT and CV have been put on the backburner. Development of those projects has been delayed, not ended.
Last week my company cut back on employees. Of 14 people who lost their jobs, 13 were "laid off" and one was "fired." The astronomical difference being that those 13 could be brought back if the company can rebound, whereas that one will never see the inside of our offices again. He was "canned."
So yes, you are lying. You are not "interpreting" anything. You're simply making up your own version of the truth in order to cast stones at WotC because they didn't make you happy.
I'm wasn't happy with the decisions made either. My sig will tell you that I disagree with some things Wizards does. However, there is a right and wrong way to voice your concerns. I try, as best I can, to articulate my concerns in a productive manner. I've worked in Customer Service before, and I know the difference between a customer who speaks rationally and makes reasonable requests and a customer who throws a temper tantrum. Customer A gets my attention and I work to make them happy. Customer B gets me Googling "Ceiling Cat" pics while they rant and rave, and no help in the end.
put on hold - indefinitely sidelined, "put on the backburner" those are words directly from your colleagues.
i only added canned as my interpretation of that statement.
Anything you do not put any effort in,
Anything you do not have any timeline on,
Anything you do not even say whether or not it might be done "later"
is as good as dead.
Flat out lying? It's just a very reasonable interpretation of the facts presented by WOTC. Currently they have no active plans to revisit or work on the VTT or Visualizer, that will be decided in the future, after other tools are done. This is their official statement.
Actually, no it's not a reasonable interpretation of the facts, simply because several people from WoTC have come and told you directly, it has not been canceled. You know the very same people you say have the lowest possible communication skills with it's clients.
You sure do get a lot of personal responses to your posts, most of which seem to be WoTC correcting you. How about letting other people get some of that attention for a while? I bet WoTC is tired of always having to follow up with your wrong interpretations.
But it's nothing more..an interpretation of pessimists with nothing better todo.
What is and will be, lays in the future.
@whitebaron
But it's nothing more..an interpretation of pessimists with nothing better todo.
What is and will be, lays in the future.
It's ok to have opinions. Heck, part of me thinks that there is a chance that the VTT won't happen. I'm experienced enough in life to know that nothing is a certain. That same experience also gives me the maturity to rationally deal with it.
It's ok to have opinions. Heck, part of me thinks that there is a chance that the VTT won't happen. I'm experienced enough in life to know that nothing is a certain. That same experience also gives me the maturity to rationally deal with it.
If he says so in his op thewn jup i acnowledge an opüinion, but he likes to state fictional facts.
Sometzime she really does babble something wich might be true and intelligent...but sometimes ...
If he says so in his op thewn jup i acnowledge an opüinion, but he likes to state fictional facts.
Sometzime she really does babble something wich might be true and intelligent...but sometimes ...
The only issue I have when someone is being very strong about their opinion is that often it's presented as fact, gets picked up by others who are upset, and spread around like it is fact. That's the internet for you isn't it?
It just makes it harder for people to get real information, harder for WoTC to want to communicate with people with different questions, rather then WoTC always having to correct these opinions disguised as facts.
And often, I feel they do it on purpose, just for attention.
Fact - VTT and Visualizer are over a year past original release date (as in they were expected to launch with the books, yes that was corrected in the weeks leading up to the release of the books but from their advertising the tools were supposed to be out with the books)
Fact - WoTC has started working on a new project "Campaign tools" with no announced project scope.
WARNING!!! Opinion - Tools that a year late and put on back burner to work on a new project from scratch are not likely to see the light of day.
I'm not whining or crying that the tools aren't out yet but I am going to take a little stab at people defending WoTC - Based on the facts above only a diehard fanboy would really expect to ever use these tools at this point.
WARNING!!! Opinion - Tools that a year late and put on back burner to work on a new project from scratch are not likely to see the light of day.
I'm not whining or crying that the tools aren't out yet but I am going to take a little stab at people defending WoTC - Based on the facts above only a diehard fanboy would really expect to ever use these tools at this point.
I agree completely.
Look, at this point I don't understand the people that have to defend and keep up the hope that the software will defenitly be coming out. There is no commitment to the software at this point.
I can't seem to find the comment now but it was specifically worded in an explanation by WOTC_Trevor what backburner meant. They are not working on it and they MAY work on it in the future. After they are done with what they are doing, they will re-evaluate what they will do - including new projects. They are pretty vague about the unreleased original projects at this point.
Canned does not mean that they will never ever revisit it like some of you people try to make people believe. Canned projects do come back to life sometimes.
You can call it backburnered all you want. I know lot's of backburnered projects that have been like that for 5+ years and everyone knows that they are unofficially cancelled and the likelihood of them ever coming out is about 1%.
I think everyone needs to realize this and then IF they ever come out everyone can be pleasantly surprised.
I agree completely.
Look, at this point I don't understand the people that have to defend and keep up the hope that the software will defenitly be coming out. There is no commitment to the software at this point.
I can't seem to find the comment now but it was specifically worded in an explanation by WOTC_Trevor what backburner meant. They are not working on it and they MAY work on it in the future. After they are done with what they are doing, they will re-evaluate what they will do - including new projects. They are pretty vague about the unreleased original projects at this point.
Canned does not mean that they will never ever revisit it like some of you people try to make people believe. Canned projects do come back to life sometimes.
You can call it backburnered all you want. I know lot's of backburnered projects that have been like that for 5+ years and everyone knows that they are unofficially cancelled and the likelihood of them ever coming out is about 1%.
I think everyone needs to realize this and then IF they ever come out everyone can be pleasantly surprised.
QFT
I don't have much hope that I'll see the VTT in the near future. I hold out hope that once the crew finishes the Campaign Builder it will give them a good base to work from to revisit the VTT. Will it happen? Who knows? I will be pleasantly surprised if it happens. But I'm not going to hold my breath and stomp my feet in the meantime.
The point is, particular people are making baseless statements and presenting them as fact. That hurts the community, and it hurts Wizards' business, because we get a lot of newbies and those who've been absent for a while coming on to the message boards looking for news. They then see thread after thread of "OMG! Teh Wizerds R lyerz! Teh bait N switch!" and get the wrong idea. If you really want a Virtual Table Top or a Character Virtualizer, you'd be best served supporting Wizards' efforts so that people invest in the DDi, giving WotC the ability to create what you're looking for.
There's nothing wrong with expressing your disappointment at the events that have occurred. I do it all the time. I am by no means a rabid fanboi. I like what Wizards is doing overall, but there are things that tweak my nerves pretty hard. The difference between myself and someone else is that I understand how to phrase my point so that it's not dripping with vitriol.
Look, at this point I don't understand the people that have to defend and keep up the hope that the software will defenitly be coming out. There is no commitment to the software at this point.
I can't seem to find the comment now but it was specifically worded in an explanation by WOTC_Trevor what backburner meant. They are not working on it and they MAY work on it in the future. After they are done with what they are doing, they will re-evaluate what they will do - including new projects. They are pretty vague about the unreleased original projects at this point.
I will just give my point of view on this, on why I think that the tools will be coming out eventually.
There is no doubt that, in hindsight, WotC bit off more than they can chew. For a whole host of reasons, some we know, some we don't know, they didn't get the tools out on time. That is fact, and I don't think anyone will dispute that.
Thus, they changed to a "one tool at a time" path, which is working very well. The compendium is extremely useful, and the character builder is (for me) a godsend and a time-saver. Both tools are *very* well put together and every month (barring the last month which appears to have done bad things to the CB in some cases) has seen improvements.
For me, I always thought that putting out the VTT *before* any sort of campaign/dungeon building tools would have been a mistake. By doing the campaign tools now, what it allows them to do is to pre-generate the parameters that the VTT will need to be able to easily integrate the stuff that they get from the various other tools, released, announced and/or planned.
In the end? I am an optimist. I think that the VTT represents too much of a feather in WotC's cap for them to simply drop it. Will it be a while for it to come out? Yes. Will it be head and shoulders above what it would have been had they released it last year? Also yes.
I agree completely.
Look, at this point I don't understand the people that have to defend and keep up the hope that the software will defenitly be coming out. There is no commitment to the software at this point.
I can't seem to find the comment now but it was specifically worded in an explanation by WOTC_Trevor what backburner meant. They are not working on it and they MAY work on it in the future. After they are done with what they are doing, they will re-evaluate what they will do - including new projects. They are pretty vague about the unreleased original projects at this point.
Canned does not mean that they will never ever revisit it like some of you people try to make people believe. Canned projects do come back to life sometimes.
You can call it backburnered all you want. I know lot's of backburnered projects that have been like that for 5+ years and everyone knows that they are unofficially cancelled and the likelihood of them ever coming out is about 1%.
I think everyone needs to realize this and then IF they ever come out everyone can be pleasantly surprised.
Of course it's vague, because that is what part of re-evaluate means. Why are you acting like it's some cover up? It's not.
You are one of the people that has been extremely vocal about how unhappy you are in how WoTC went about promoting the VTT, and how they handled it.
And now in response to that, they are trying to avoid making the same mistakes, and you are now not happy with that.
There's just no winning for them with some people.
I will just give my point of view on this, on why I think that the tools will be coming out eventually.
There is no doubt that, in hindsight, WotC bit off more than they can chew. For a whole host of reasons, some we know, some we don't know, they didn't get the tools out on time. That is fact, and I don't think anyone will dispute that.
Thus, they changed to a "one tool at a time" path, which is working very well. The compendium is extremely useful, and the character builder is (for me) a godsend and a time-saver. Both tools are *very* well put together and every month (barring the last month which appears to have done bad things to the CB in some cases) has seen improvements.
For me, I always thought that putting out the VTT *before* any sort of campaign/dungeon building tools would have been a mistake. By doing the campaign tools now, what it allows them to do is to pre-generate the parameters that the VTT will need to be able to easily integrate the stuff that they get from the various other tools, released, announced and/or planned.
In the end? I am an optimist. I think that the VTT represents too much of a feather in WotC's cap for them to simply drop it. Will it be a while for it to come out? Yes. Will it be head and shoulders above what it would have been had they released it last year? Also yes.
I agree with everything said here. Honestly, I was always a bit skeptical of the VTT, since I have a decent idea (I'mma game programmer :D) of the kind of work that goes into that. To make such a program with knowledge of all the D&D monsters/rules would be a huge undertaking. I'm perfectly happy with the Campaign tools coming first, as I lovelovelove the Compendium/Character Builder and even find uses for the existing Encounter Builder. Anything to help organize and speed up my prep is great in my book.
QFT
QFT
The point is, particular people are making baseless statements and presenting them as fact. That hurts the community, and it hurts Wizards' business, because we get a lot of newbies and those who've been absent for a while coming on to the message boards looking for news. [...]
The difference between myself and someone else is that I understand how to phrase my point so that it's not dripping with vitriol.
1: this is a message board. one should not have to highlight that ones post is an opinion, especially when it is about interpreting what oneself is seeing.
2: just because your vitriol is hidden behind nice words, does not make it non-existent. just something to think about. being straightforward and verbose i feel is a lot more honest than to hide statements behind whatever (political?) correctness this should be.
I will just give my point of view on this, on why I think that the tools will be coming out eventually.
There is no doubt that, in hindsight, WotC bit off more than they can chew. For a whole host of reasons, some we know, some we don't know, they didn't get the tools out on time. That is fact, and I don't think anyone will dispute that.
Thus, they changed to a "one tool at a time" path, which is working very well. The compendium is extremely useful, and the character builder is (for me) a godsend and a time-saver. Both tools are *very* well put together and every month (barring the last month which appears to have done bad things to the CB in some cases) has seen improvements.
For me, I always thought that putting out the VTT *before* any sort of campaign/dungeon building tools would have been a mistake. By doing the campaign tools now, what it allows them to do is to pre-generate the parameters that the VTT will need to be able to easily integrate the stuff that they get from the various other tools, released, announced and/or planned.
In the end? I am an optimist. I think that the VTT represents too much of a feather in WotC's cap for them to simply drop it. Will it be a while for it to come out? Yes. Will it be head and shoulders above what it would have been had they released it last year? Also yes.
I agree. The difference is that I don't expect it to ever come out, even though it should. If it comes out, I would be pleasently surprised.
After the last 3 or so digital tools, that is my feeling at this point and they have done nothing to change that feeling. Expect to get something, somehow down the line.
I like the character builder, it has it's annoying things, but it is better than the ones I have used for 3rd edition. The problem is there is no competition since no one will touch a Character Designer with the GSL limitations (AFAIK).
The Monster Tools that was just talked about is only 1 part of the entire Adventure Tools. I expect the entire suit to take 1.5 years to develop, maybe even stretching it to 2 years at this point.
At that point, what do they start to work on? Who knows, there is no commitment and the landscape may have changed to not work on those 2 tools again. Hasbro may say that it is a waste of time to continue. Who knows? 1.5 to 2 years is a long time. They may not mean to but this stuff happens when it is a long time on hold (I know from experience).
I want people to realize this fact, there is no commitment that these tools will ever come out at this point. Their actions support that with changing to a new unanounced tool (I don't really blame them at this point).
I think I have said this before, but I will again. This is the similiar to E-Tools for 3rd edition.
Of course it's vague, because that is what part of re-evaluate means. Why are you acting like it's some cover up? It's not.
You are one of the people that has been extremely vocal about how unhappy you are in how WoTC went about promoting the VTT, and how they handled it.
And now in response to that, they are trying to avoid making the same mistakes, and you are now not happy with that.
There's just no winning for them with some people.
And you continually put words in my mouth, confuse my posting with other people and do not actually read what I post.
I am not saying there is a cover up, I am saying DON'T EXPECT THE TOOLS.
I am not saying there is a cover up, I am saying DON'T EXPECT THE TOOLS.
If by this you mean "don't expect the VTT", I agree.
What we have NOT NOT NOT been told about the VTT: "we cancelled it"
We haven't been told that, and we shouldn't act like we have.
What we have not been told: "It is shelved, but we will get back to it at a future date." We haven't been told that, though I wish we had.
What we HAVE been told: "It is shelved. At a future date, we will decide whether or not to get back to it. (And even if we don't, it still isn't cancelled, just still shelved."
It reminds me of a quote from a book about how the devil promised that all souls would be rehabilitated and released from hell before the end of time. Since an infinite period of time cannot end, he technically wasn't lying despite having never released a single soul.
Wizards can claim that the VTT is not cancelled indefinitely, without ever lying, despite never producing it, because they are going to make a decision on it some time in the future.
Key reason why I don't think it will come out: the longer it goes before they work on it, the more data that will have to be integrated. One of the stated reasons for going to 4th edition in the first place was that 3.5 had so much data to integrate into DDI, and that it would be easier to start DDI with a new edition. In another year or two, if the VTT isn't off the shelf, it will have the same problem. Each year, more classes come out. More monsters. More races. More powers. More keywords. Sooner or later, somebody at Wizards will point out that it would be cheaper to wait for 5th edition.
If by this you mean "don't expect the VTT", I agree.
By this I mean don't expect any of the unreleased original tools.
They have 1.5 years to 2 years of work on the complete Adventure Tools, judging by their past rate of releases.
If you believe the staffing posts by Shemeska, then each tool will also increase the workload of the team as well on a monthly basis.
And you continually put words in my mouth, confuse my posting with other people and do not actually read what I post.
I am not saying there is a cover up, I am saying DON'T EXPECT THE TOOLS.
You should relax a little more. And you sure do need a lot of long posts to say that.
It reminds me of a quote from a book about how the devil promised that all souls would be rehabilitated and released from hell before the end of time. Since an infinite period of time cannot end, he technically wasn't lying despite having never released a single soul.
On a Pale Horse. A FANTASTIC novel.
I agree with everything said here. Honestly, I was always a bit skeptical of the VTT, since I have a decent idea (I'mma game programmer :D) of the kind of work that goes into that. To make such a program with knowledge of all the D&D monsters/rules would be a huge undertaking. I'm perfectly happy with the Campaign tools coming first, as I lovelovelove the Compendium/Character Builder and even find uses for the existing Encounter Builder. Anything to help organize and speed up my prep is great in my book.
Personally, I think the Campaign Tools are just as huge an undertaking as the VTT, given that it was never intended to run the game automatically (I'm also a game programmer). Of course, that depends on how they would have gone about setting up the rendering pipeline, and certainly if they decided to write the entire rendering pipeline from scratch, it would be much more massive an undertaking than the Campaign Tools, but that's just pure foolishness in general (who writes their own rendering pipeline these days anyway? I think anyone who has ever done game dev can agree that's almost always going to be a huge mistake, unless your project is HUGELY specialized in some way that disallows you from using standard rendering pipelines that are already established). Now, granted, there would be a lot of art assets required, but given they weren't to be animated anyway, that's not such a huge problem and doesn't really have any bearing on getting the software itself done, IMO.
I will have to agree that any project that gets backburnered in favor of a completely new project that's being done from scratch is effectively dead (I personally have no less than 4 projects of my own that have been on the backburner for several years each, and we have 5-10 that have been on the backburner at work for at least a year each...the likelihood of revisiting them, ever, is slim to none).
Yeah, that doesn't mean there's no chance they won't be revisited, but that chance is almost certainly astronomically small.
On a Pale Horse. A FANTASTIC novel.
Quite!
Well, when people on these fourms ask about them and the company does not say anything offical about them, what else are people suposted to think?
In another thread today WOTC Trevor did say that the VTT is shelved for now. But IIRC that is the first offical word I have seen about the VTT in awhile.
It would be nice if WOTC put sticky threads at the top of this section of the fourms with the status of the different DDi tools. Something like:
VTT info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Character viewer info: on hold but may be worked on later.
Campagin tools: currently being worked on, will have more info soon.
Just little info from WOTC like that will go a long way I think.
THIS! Please, for the love of god! It would stop many new topics and much misinformation if WOTC could do something as simply as a sticky topic with status updates.
I'm in the UK, no local game group (that has gone over to 4e) so I'm entirely reliant on on-line gaming tools- maptools is my poison, and works well.- my present group has been together for six months and spans continents, deliriously happy about this.
And yet...
And I feel such a fool for saying this but I want my gaming table (VTT), and the other stuff that Wizards said was in the pipeline.
Obviously I'm muddled headed for thinking I'm owed an explanation, or at least some statement of intent, some more information, come on... please.
My future D&D experiences are going to be entirely on-line (I'm fairly certain), I need to know if the tool is better than MapTools, and by this I mean a lot easier to create Dungeons et al, I've been using MapTools for 2 years now and am pretty adept but the VTT demo (mock up- whatever it was) looked sweet, far better than anything I can do in the time frame I have to knock up a game.
I confess I didn't realise Wizards were notoriously bad at Tech stuff, I'd never invested in Tech stuff to play D&D previously (even though I started with the Red Box and have bought certainly more than 25% of everything Wizards (and previous incarnations TSR et al) have ever produced, which is difficult to do pre-internet, having no Local Gaming store and being for some time a member of the British Armed Forces. I think I have 100% of their 4e products to date. I realise this doesn't mean I'm owed anything- I love what Wizards have produced, more or less all of it has been useful, even if only as a good read, which is what a lot of it has been for large portions of my life, not having a local gaming group.
And yet... Where's the VTT? When's it due? Is there nothing that can be done- I'll pay more, I'll come over and help out when I can, I know nothing about computers or programming I'm just a gamer that made a rash purchase because I thought I was getting the stuff I'd seen on the YouTube video (see below).
I'm feel equally foolish, having read some of the posts here, in that I didn't examine in detail every statement made by WOTC prior to 4e/D&DI release, as I say I saw a video on YouTube of two guys at a lectern saying "this is the VTT available to all DDI subscribers- you'll be able too..." Please don't message me back to point out the errors in the above quote, they said something very similar to this.
The point I'm making is there are lots of people, in many continents (certainly lots of the people in the groups I've played with on MapTools) keep saying- 'I can't wait till the VTT comes out', still.
Obviously the poll/questionnaire thing done by Wizards indicated that more people wanted alternative products- the Camapign Tools, I voted for the VTT of course, as did everyone I spoke to at the time, but the thing we have in common is that the only game we get is on-line these days.
And yes I've asked Wizards direct when the VTT is coming out and I get a very polite, I presume, automated response.
I'm posting here because having just spent an hour or so reading many of the posts in this forum it seems people are at times a little too forthright in their defense of Wizards, my opinion of course. I'm not going to apply anologies to other products et al, I'll stick with the real time, I've been buying Wizards/TSR stuff for 25 years or more, I can honestly say that DDI is the most disappointing thing I've purchased, not because of what it is but because of what I thought/they said it would be.
Oh and I did Pathfinder for a bit, spent a lot of money on that too, my Local gaming group are not buying it 3.5e only.
Lasdtly Maptools rocks- go try it if you haven't already, but I'd give my right arm to see the VTT working.
Lastly, sorry long winded- will learn brevity, never meant to offend, didn't mean to stereotype etc. Non-aggressive as I can be about an emotive (for me) issue.
Have a cracking time all of the time.
Oh and for the adventures of my on-line gaming group, The Friday Knights, go here-
http://www.enworld.org/forum/story-hour/253572-friday-knights-sellswords-fallcrest.html
Cheers Paul
THIS! Please, for the love of god! It would stop many new topics and much misinformation if WOTC could do something as simply as a sticky topic with status updates.
They did
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1188799
However, the idea that every week or month or whatever, come and post, NOPE still not working on X and X, and as for what we are working on, we have no information we want to give out at this time.
I say a week or so because when once asked how often WoTC should post about what they aren't doing, a week was suggested.
The website is going to be redesigned, and I think soon. I'm hoping that the DDI section will be better organized. Well mainly the sidebar link to DDI News isn't just there.
But I think a reasonable adult can understand and accept that they have been told that announcements will come when WoTC feels the tool/product is ready to be talked about in length, and that they don't need to post every week that their isn't anything to talk about.
Because as much as some say that's what they want, WoTC to post every week, there will be some that come and complain that they are wasting peoples time by posting that there is nothing to post.
And lets be honest, it's silly to have to post that there is nothing to post, to prove you are communicating.
What the forums need and can have, because DDO uses the same type of forum, is a link at the top, where it says My Account, Calendar and so on, that will bring up all posts by WoTC staff and forum volunteers, so that you can look and find official posts faster.
Never posted here before so please be gentle with me.
I'm in the UK, no local game group (that has gone over to 4e) so I'm entirely reliant on on-line gaming tools- maptools is my poison, and works well.- my present group has been together for six months and spans continents, deliriously happy about this.
And yet...
And I feel such a fool for saying this but I want my gaming table (VTT), and the other stuff that Wizards said was in the pipeline.
Obviously I'm muddled headed for thinking I'm owed an explanation, or at least some statement of intent, some more information, come on... please.
Not to say what you feel and think are wrong. Far from it. And even the desire to know more.
But is it to hard to accept that companies are just not going to put out much if any information about why they failed?
There is a lot of speculation that the company doing the coding, failed. Well if that rumor is true, WoTC can't say that. They would get sued. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, they would be sued by that company, because going public would damage that companies reputation.
Lets say the reason is because WoTC totally failed to manage the project internally. Lordy, I've been there with lazy project managers that think calling and asking if things are done as per the schedule, without asking to see the work, only to find out at the deadline, it's not even close.
Lots of over-time for me then. And none of these project managers ever got fired.
If WoTC totally screwed up on their end, do you think they are going to talk about that? Not really.
The simple fact, companies don't talk much if at all about their failures.
That doesn't answer any of your questions, I know. But if a person can take that in, then maybe they'll be less frustrated. Because that is how business works. You don't have to like it, but accepting it helps.
And lets be honest, it's silly to have to post that there is nothing to post, to prove you are communicating.
Given WOTC's history with computer products for DnD, Etools/ master tools and now how they seemed to drop the ball with the 4th ed DDi tools. Communcating even this little info once a week will be the only way to gain trust back with the customers, IMO.
Given WOTC's history with computer products for DnD, Etools/ master tools and now how they seemed to drop the ball with the 4th ed DDi tools. Communcating even this little info once a week will be the only way to gain trust back with the customers, IMO.
To gain your trust back. And some others too, I'll give.
And they do communicate every single week. It's just not always about the one subject you are interested the most in, since they have lots of customers, and not all of them have the same focused interest as you.
DDI is just one product of MANY they work on.
Also, you don't seem to really have any issues checking back in enough times to keep in formed. When they finally post something about what's going on, I'm sure you will know quick enough.
As for having it for other people, if that's what they want, let them speak up with their own voices. It's only fair, you've had your say, let them have their own. They might not see things quite the same as you.
THIS! Please, for the love of god! It would stop many new topics and much misinformation if WOTC could do something as simply as a sticky topic with status updates.
They don't need a sticky. People don't read stickies. They need a giant marquee flashing banner that says, "The GameTable and Character Visualizer are Postponed. Current Development Efforts are focused on the Adventure Tools* - Please Read The Sticky Threads for More Information."
* Or whatever they're calling it.
They don't need a sticky. People don't read stickies. They need a giant marquee flashing banner that says, "The GameTable and Character Visualizer are Postponed. Current Development Efforts are focused on the Adventure Tools* - Please Read The Sticky Threads for More Information."
* Or whatever they're calling it.
HA HA HA. Even then there would be people that won't read that!
HA HA HA. Even then there would be people that won't read that!
QFT!
I watched a report not long ago on the responsibility of businesses to communicate warnings about products to consumers. The classic example being McDonalds and the lady who suffered severe burns from a hot coffee spill (no I'm not going to judge the issue itself).
If McDonalds prints "Warning:extremely hot liquid" around the lid or rim of the cup - someone might still spill coffee, get burns, and sue - claiming the test was too small to see (perhaps the customer is old and has poor eyesight).
So McDonalds might redesign the cup so that it says "HOT" in great big letters on all "sides" of the cup.
Someone might still spill coffee, get burns, and sue - claiming that the word "Hot" was so large, and covered so much of the cup that it seems a design, and not a proper warning.
Do both? Cup is now too "busy" and jumbled - it's too confusing to the eye.
Point being - proper communication is something that can never be truly defined, and there will always be someone who misses the message, no matter what that message is.
Now, I'm not going to claim WotC has a track record approaching anything near "perfect communication" - but I happen to agree that it doesn't matter HOW WotC tries to communicate progress or lack thereof with the tools.
There will always be someone (and probably several someones) complaining that it isn't enough.
While these last three posts are (I hope) in jest - there's a large grain of truth to them.
Only partly in jest, really. While I do absolutely think they should put flashing, double-underlined, scrolling marquee up with that information, that would essentially be trumpeting a negative (because, whatever the reason and however justified, the delay is a negative thing), and I wouldn't expect any company to do that.
While these last three posts are (I hope) in jest - there's a large grain of truth to them.
ah...while funny, sadly true.
I've worked enough years in retail to know that customers who want more for their dollar then they should get, will say anything.
People also think their dollar means they are allowed to treat others like crap. Nope. Sorry money doesn't mean anyone has the right to insult, demean or be abusive to someone. You just don't.
I've worked enough years in corporate to understand, no ones job is easy, less so if it's a job you have never done. It's like editorial saying for me to make a PDF I just push a button. Not so. And believe me, the tempers flared when I replied, is editing easy? Don't you just hit check spelling and grammar? They certainly didn't like their job trivialized. I certainly don't like my job trivialized.
While these last three posts are (I hope) in jest - there's a large grain of truth to them.
I watched a report not long ago on the responsibility of businesses to communicate warnings about products to consumers. The classic example being McDonalds and the lady who suffered severe burns from a hot coffee spill (no I'm not going to judge the issue itself).
If McDonalds prints "Warning:extremely hot liquid" around the lid or rim of the cup - someone might still spill coffee, get burns, and sue - claiming the test was too small to see (perhaps the customer is old and has poor eyesight).
So McDonalds might redesign the cup so that it says "HOT" in great big letters on all "sides" of the cup.
Someone might still spill coffee, get burns, and sue - claiming that the word "Hot" was so large, and covered so much of the cup that it seems a design, and not a proper warning.
Do both? Cup is now too "busy" and jumbled - it's too confusing to the eye.
Point being - proper communication is something that can never be truly defined, and there will always be someone who misses the message, no matter what that message is.
Now, I'm not going to claim WotC has a track record approaching anything near "perfect communication" - but I happen to agree that it doesn't matter HOW WotC tries to communicate progress or lack thereof with the tools.
There will always be someone (and probably several someones) complaining that it isn't enough.
I hate when people bring this argument up. No one ever knows the facts of that case.
THE COFFEE WAS SO HOT IT MELTED HER SKIN. That is why she sued. She didn't sue because she spilled hot coffee on herself and got mad because it was hot and they didn't tell her. IT LITTERALLY MELTED HER SKIN. There was no reason on earth the coffee should have been that hot.
I hate when people bring this argument up. No one ever knows the facts of that case.
THE COFFEE WAS SO HOT IT MELTED HER SKIN. That is why she sued. She didn't sue because she spilled hot coffee on herself and got mad because it was hot and they didn't tell her. IT LITTERALLY MELTED HER SKIN. There was no reason on earth the coffee should have been that hot.
Wolfstar wasn't discussing that situation itself, he was referring to the fallout and aftermath of the case which involved printed warnings on the cups.
Wolfstar wasn't discussing that situation itself, he was referring to the fallout and aftermath of the case which involved printed warnings on the cups.
Here is some examples of what Wolfstar says:
claiming the test was too small to see (perhaps the customer is old and has poor eyesight
claiming that the word "Hot" was so large, and covered so much of the cup that it seems a design, and not a proper warning.
Once again, my point is, it had nothing to do with whether or not there was a "caution: hot" warning on the cup, how big or small that text was. It was about McDonalds serving a liquid so hot it can melt flesh. There is no warning that can go on a cup that would justify coffee being that hot. This is apples and oranges.
My point is that arguing about the text on the cup is moot. There is no text that could have possibly been on the cup that would suddenly make flesh melting coffee temperatures ok.
Now, I'm not going to claim WotC has a track record approaching anything near "perfect communication" - but I happen to agree that it doesn't matter HOW WotC tries to communicate progress or lack thereof with the tools.
There will always be someone (and probably several someones) complaining that it isn't enough.
True enough. So how would WotC, in your opinion, go about deciding which of the opinions that they are presumably receiving or reading on these boards are valid concerns and which are purely "always complaining" concerns?
Because not listening to any of them might lead to a possiblity of insularity, and listening to them all might mean nothing ever got addressed due to there being too many...
Here is some examples of what Wolfstar says:
Once again, my point is, it had nothing to do with whether or not there was a "caution: hot" warning on the cup, how big or small that text was. It was about McDonalds serving a liquid so hot it can melt flesh. There is no warning that can go on a cup that would justify coffee being that hot. This is apples and oranges.
My point is that arguing about the text on the cup is moot. There is no text that could have possibly been on the cup that would suddenly make flesh melting coffee temperatures ok.
I don't believe that your point has any bearing on this conversation though. We're not discussing what McDonald's should print on their cups or their coffee serving process. We're discussing how McDonald's chose to print a warning on their cups and then the subsequent delimma of making sure all customers would read that warning. Neither the specific situation of the woman who was burned or the warning that McDonald's chose to put on the cup have anything to do with this discussion other than to be a reference point to a real-life event.
As for the discussion at hand, I think the best thing that can be done for the forum is to post a sticky with a title that clearly mentions the VTT and Visualizer (perhaps "Looking for the Gametable (VTT) or Character Visualizer?") and then outlines the current situation for the uninformed. It wouldn't stop all threads asking what happened, but it would reduce them somewhat. The problem with that is the number of sticky threads already posted. I know Webster (at least I think it's Webster) prefers to keep the number of stickies per forum to 3 or less and we currently have 5.
As for the discussion at hand, I think the best thing that can be done for the forum is to post a sticky with a title that clearly mentions the VTT and Visualizer (perhaps "Looking for the Gametable (VTT) or Character Visualizer?") and then outlines the current situation for the uninformed
I am with celloshane on this one. The current set-up does not seem to specifically address, clearly, information relating to these two items. If a thread was made (or even alterred) to include this information that dealing with any threads that cropped up in spite of it would be comparatively easy...
"All currently available information is available in this thread (with link). Please look there."
I have been reading this particular sub-forum for months now (having not posted here until today I am one of the quieter souls, I think) and even I wish that the DDi FAQ was a bit clearer about some of this.
I hate when people bring this argument up. No one ever knows the facts of that case.
THE COFFEE WAS SO HOT IT MELTED HER SKIN. That is why she sued. She didn't sue because she spilled hot coffee on herself and got mad because it was hot and they didn't tell her. IT LITTERALLY MELTED HER SKIN. There was no reason on earth the coffee should have been that hot.
Please see the part where I said I'm making no judgment on the case itself.
I was confining my argument to the point of communication between customers and businesses - and using that case as a common point of reference.
Since you brought it up, I actually DO know a fair bit about the case, and am particularly upset that the real winners at the end of the day were the attorneys - but that is WAY beyond the scope of this thread.
Here is some examples of what Wolfstar says:
Once again, my point is, it had nothing to do with whether or not there was a "caution: hot" warning on the cup, how big or small that text was. It was about McDonalds serving a liquid so hot it can melt flesh. There is no warning that can go on a cup that would justify coffee being that hot. This is apples and oranges.
My point is that arguing about the text on the cup is moot. There is no text that could have possibly been on the cup that would suddenly make flesh melting coffee temperatures ok.
Actually, as I recall (and on this point I may be wrong) - I don't think companies were putting ANY "warning: hot" labels on cups at the time, so the size of the warnings is moot as this case is what spawned their existence.
So again, I'm not making a judgment about the case - it's a damn shame what happened.
I'm discussing the AFTERMATH and the warnings that came about as a result - and how companies are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation when it comes to communicating with customers.
Any discussion beyond that is further off-topic my already off-topic point.
True enough. So how would WotC, in your opinion, go about deciding which of the opinions that they are presumably receiving or reading on these boards are valid concerns and which are purely "always complaining" concerns?
Because not listening to any of them might lead to a possiblity of insularity, and listening to them all might mean nothing ever got addressed due to there being too many...
This is the ultimate question, as far as I'm concerned - at what point DOES a company (in this case WotC) take it as constructive critism that more could be done - and at what point is it just (not to trivialize anyone's opinion thus far) "whining"?
I don't have that answer, because I'm not in WotC's shoes - so I don't know what feedback they're getting from what sources.
I can only say that if it were me? I'd give minimal credence to most of what's said in these forums - if only because it's often the same message from the same person repeated time and again. It gives the appearance of volume, but is skewed. Hyperbole also tends to run fairly rampant - and is something that, personally, makes me more or less disregard an entire post - and with enough repeated incidents, the poster as well.
However, feedback received in other methods - especially well-worded, clearly through-out messages delivered via Customer Service would bear considerably more weight.
Similarly discussions with fans/customers/players at conventions would carry a good amount of weight - if only because people tend to be FAR more rational in-person, plus the instantaneous two-way communication lets you truly get to the root of what someone is trying to say.
Any feedback received by mail is also something to be given ample consideration.
Again - that's just how *I* would do it for "My Business". WotC's mileage may vary greatly.
Been reading it just for the humor lately.