I've been paying DDI for almost a year, my next bill is coming soon, and I acquire this product mostly for the tools offered in the ddi pack...
But a year has passed, 2 gencon indy has passed (or are soon to be passed) and I am seeing online games been develop for magic with lot of fuzz about it and exciment from both players and developers, and all of this keep me wondering...
Where are the tools we were promised? Hasn't we wait enough? Payed enough? is the personnel is been working on other stuffs? had the constant lattacks by pirates against this franchise had bashed the moral of the producers??
Please, dear DDI... gives us something new to celebrate... or at least acknowledge this subject and gives some sort of weekly or monthly even report on what it's the status of this tools.
Thank you for your time.
Does Wizards have anything else schedule this weekend where they might have DDI news?
I find this completely unacceptable.
All the arguments about DDI being basically the character builder (and that's all we've ever paid for) still hold water, but the constant promises are not enough. CB is a fantastic tool, but there is so much more it can be.
I find that Wizards is trying the Apple approach to hype: say nothing until you say something stupendous.
Unfortunately, they don't have a Steve Jobs-level showman, nor have they produced anything on the DDI side of the house that warrants the wait.
I'm sorry to throw more logs on the flame wars, or keep flogging the dead horse, but I'm beyond frustrated.. It's time for me to vote with my dollars - and I will not be renewing my DDI sub until there is some concrete support for mobile platforms (iOS, WebOS, WinMo, and Android), and moving D&D into the 1990s with PDF or other digital book forms.
My DM is at the GenCon D&D Q&A session right now, and he's telling me that Wizards is maintaining the same line: We have REALLY cool stuff in the works, that we're not ready to talk about yet.
I find this completely unacceptable.
All the arguments about DDI being basically the character builder (and that's all we've ever paid for) still hold water, but the constant promises are not enough. CB is a fantastic tool, but there is so much more it can be.
I find that Wizards is trying the Apple approach to hype: say nothing until you say something stupendous.
Unfortunately, they don't have a Steve Jobs-level showman, nor have they produced anything on the DDI side of the house that warrants the wait.
I'm sorry to throw more logs on the flame wars, or keep flogging the dead horse, but I'm beyond frustrated.. It's time for me to vote with my dollars - and I will not be renewing my DDI sub until there is some concrete support for mobile platforms (iOS, WebOS, WinMo, and Android), and moving D&D into the 1990s with PDF or other digital book forms.
I hardly think Steve Jobs would help. I find him annoying personally. And I agree. I would like the tools for example to be ported for Android as apps.
Maybe.
My DM is at the GenCon D&D Q&A session right now, and he's telling me that Wizards is maintaining the same line: We have REALLY cool stuff in the works, that we're not ready to talk about yet.
I find this completely unacceptable.
All the arguments about DDI being basically the character builder (and that's all we've ever paid for) still hold water, but the constant promises are not enough. CB is a fantastic tool, but there is so much more it can be.
I find that Wizards is trying the Apple approach to hype: say nothing until you say something stupendous.
Unfortunately, they don't have a Steve Jobs-level showman, nor have they produced anything on the DDI side of the house that warrants the wait.
I'm sorry to throw more logs on the flame wars, or keep flogging the dead horse, but I'm beyond frustrated.. It's time for me to vote with my dollars - and I will not be renewing my DDI sub until there is some concrete support for mobile platforms (iOS, WebOS, WinMo, and Android), and moving D&D into the 1990s with PDF or other digital book forms.
Agreed, very disappointing. I was convinced they would announce something. Oh well, at least I'm not paying for it...
I hardly think Steve Jobs would help. I find him annoying personally. And I agree. I would like the tools for example to be ported for Android as apps.
I pointed out Jobs only as an example of someone who can proverbially "sell ice to eskimos". He can spin even the worst features as something that you need to have...
disclaimer before the Mac/Windows religious war: I own and run Macs, iPhones, and iPads.. I understand Apple's strengths and shortcomings.
I appreciate Mudbunny and the rest of the liaisons, and the Wizards staff finally acknowledging that they haven't been sitting around doing nothing - but they have been hard at work on something....
At this point though, that's almost worse than not saying anything at all - "the check is in the mail" old saw.
Personally, I would like to see them say "this is what we are trying to do". Even if it doesn't work out, we've all seen tech and software companies promise features that never come to market.
I can only speak for myself, but getting an opportunity to give direct feedback on the product before release would be extremely beneficial as D&D is fundamentally a player-driven game. We all help (or should) make the game evolve - and we see that as the rules change to reflect what players do in the real world.
This being the DDI forum, by definition: we all have an interest in using D&D with technology. I would propose that many of us either know something about coding, or UI design, or some aspect of the relevant technology - or know someone who does.
Therefore: let us help! Tell us what the plan is, and then let us alpha-and beta test it - give relevant feedback and make a spectacular product.
I know that D&D is a pen-and-paper game to the core, but this is 2010 and the digital side of the house must have proper funding, so telling us that there aren't resources won't wash. Use an open-source mentality and let the community help build something great.
You mean like this?
Re: (Gencon) Questions that need answering
Re: (Gencon) Questions that need answering
I hope WotC will work with this developer and get it back live so we have a great way to access the compendium info without having to have laptops taking up valuable battlemat realstate.
Because I assume the reader is smart enough to realize I mean "nothing of importance" rather than "no words of any sort, not even PR/lies/whatever"
I figure the writer would be smart enough to realize what the word 'literally' means.
And, "nothing of importance" is subjective at best.
I found the note provided by the WotC rep on the forums recently very important. Communication with the team responsible for the D&D Insider product I've been subscribed to for some time is important to me. And, them letting me know there's something in the pipeline and they're excited to talk about it and will when they can is very important as far as I'm concerned.
Not really. But, that being said, from my perspective, there is nothing really negative to say either. As I have said many, many times, WotC has been very clear that they will announce things when they are ready. Not before.
At this point, "when they are ready" could also mean "never". Rather than announce that they are not doing anything substantive (as evidenced by the lack of any meaningful announcement at GenCon), they can say "we're working on it" indefinitely. The whole "we've been burned on this and we're not going to repeat that mistake" bit is getting thin.
I for one, would rather have at least a buggy beta of something new instead more non-promises.
But lets say, for arguments sake, that they release a buggy beta. I can guarantee that, within about an hour of it being released, there will be a blog, or post, or comment somewhere that will blast WotC for putting out a buggy piece of crap, completely ignoring the fact that it is a beat release, and that there are bugs. This will then get spread around teh intarwebz and the message will not be "[tool x] beta has lots of bugs", it will be "[tool x] has lots of bugs".
(Note, I am just playing devil's adviocate here.)
I don't recall too many flames after the recent Monster Builder update. And that was pretty darn bugging, what with it removing recharge numbers and interrupt triggers.
I didn't notice this until after I had copied all my monsters for my last game session, and it certainly made that session a little tricky...
And there are large bugs in the Character Builder that have been there for months.
I don't think anyone is expecting perfection.
I found the note provided by the WotC rep on the forums recently very important. Communication with the team responsible for the D&D Insider product I've been subscribed to for some time is important to me. And, them letting me know there's something in the pipeline and they're excited to talk about it and will when they can is very important as far as I'm concerned.
When they say something that doesn't boil down to "we're working on some things. We think you'll like them. Some day we might actually get to show them to you but not yet" you might have a point. It's been at least a year since they said something that isn't a variation on that theme (when the Adventure Tools (Which seems stuck at being Adventure Tool, singular) was released. That hasn't changed and nothing I have seen of late gives me any reason to expect that will change anytime soon if ever.
When they say something that doesn't boil down to "we're working on some things. We think you'll like them. Some day we might actually get to show them to you but not yet" you might have a point. It's been at least a year since they said something that isn't a variation on that theme (when the Adventure Tools (Which seems stuck at being Adventure Tool, singular) was released. That hasn't changed and nothing I have seen of late gives me any reason to expect that will change anytime soon if ever.
Sure. So, long as we both agree they literally did say something about the tools recently.
Thanks!
When they say something that doesn't boil down to "we're working on some things. We think you'll like them. Some day we might actually get to show them to you but not yet" you might have a point. It's been at least a year since they said something that isn't a variation on that theme (when the Adventure Tools (Which seems stuck at being Adventure Tool, singular) was released. That hasn't changed and nothing I have seen of late gives me any reason to expect that will change anytime soon if ever.
Sure. So, long as we both agree they literally did say something about the tools recently.
Thanks!
If you want to declare victory based on semantics, don't let me stop you.
ANd the ironic thing is, at the time of this writing, there is a post on another thread from Mike Robless saying the same nothing they keep saying "working on things. Can't say what. etc"
It's getting irritating, really.
If you want to declare victory based on semantics, don't let me stop you.
ANd the ironic thing is, at the time of this writing, there is a post on another thread from Mike Robless saying the same nothing they keep saying "working on things. Can't say what. etc"
It's getting irritating, really.
I'm not declaring anything.
The ironic thing is actually that before people were biitching about them "saying something of consequence" or whatever, they were biitching about not hearing whether they were working on tools at all.
Now, WotC comes out and plainly says, "Ok. Ok. We ARE working on SOMETHING. We just can't tell you what or when it'll come out, except that we are super excited and it'll be soon we hope!"
And, that's not good enough either...
At what point will you be happy? I say, "Never."
Because as soon as they give you the info you want, like a release date or what the new tool is, you'll be biitching about what features there are, or that the release date is too far away, or that you want a different tool, or whatever...
That's what gets irritating to me.
If you want to declare victory based on semantics, don't let me stop you.
ANd the ironic thing is, at the time of this writing, there is a post on another thread from Mike Robless saying the same nothing they keep saying "working on things. Can't say what. etc"
It's getting irritating, really.
I'm not declaring anything.
The ironic thing is actually that before people were biitching about them "saying something of consequence" or whatever, they were biitching about not hearing whether they were working on tools at all.
Now, WotC comes out and plainly says, "Ok. Ok. We ARE working on SOMETHING. We just can't tell you what or when it'll come out, except that we are super excited and it'll be soon we hope!"
And, that's not good enough either...
At what point will you be happy? I say, "Never."
Because as soon as they give you the info you want, like a release date or what the new tool is, you'll be biitching about what features there are, or that the release date is too far away, or that you want a different tool, or whatever...
That's what gets irritating to me.
But, in my case at least, I wouldn't necessarily bitch about the latter things. My complaint, ultimately, is that by continually talking about how excited they are about what they are working on but never actually coming out with anything, it eventually begins to feel like they are trying to BS me. I don't like it when people try to BS me. Even if they were to just say "Okay, we blew it. DDI is as done as its going to be." that would be okay with me because it would be honest and I like what there is anyway. But by continually saying "More is coming. You'll love it. Honest. Just wait and see. Someday...", it begins to feel like they are trying to keep me as a customer by making false promises and that irritates me more than any blown release date/buggy release/poor choice of tool ever could.
...it begins to feel like they are trying to keep me as a customer by making false promises and that irritates me more than any blown release date/buggy release/poor choice of tool ever could...
How are they trying to keep you as a customer for a tool that hasn't released yet?
I don't understand... You can't be a customer for a tool that hasn't released. I'm not a "customer" for Halo: Reach yet. I will be on September 14th. But, not yet.
Potential customer? Maybe...
I am presuming that any future new tools would be part of DDI same as the CB and Monster Builder. The same DDI that I am indeed a customer for.
Right. But, you're a customer for those tools currently. You're not a customer for a tool that hasn't released.
I assume you're pleased with the current tools and the price for those tools? Yes?
I don't really associate the current tools with the new tools other than them being in the same suite of options.
It'd be like if I had Photoshop and InDesign, and Adobe was still working on Illustrator. I wouldn't get pissed and stop paying for Photoshop or InDesign because they hadn't finished Illustrator...
In fact, there have been a few posts by reps from WotC saying something and attempting outreach with the community in the past couple weeks.
Nothing of any consequence.
From your point of view. And as far as that goes, it works for you.
I've been a DDi subscriber since Day One and really like and use everything DDi is giving me. I have no complaints about what I get for my money - if I did I would simply not be a DDi Subscriber.
I wish a WotC employee could at least tell us exactly why they don't want to tell us anything. Have they done that and I missed it? If so, can someone point me to that post? I understand that they over promised and undelivered in the past. But unless they feel that unconfident about actually releasing the next thing they are working on (which would be very worrying), why can't they tell us what it is? Even if not when it might be ready?
Blakey the Confused.
I find it annoying that they can't tell us more. We get release dates for D&D books. We get all manner of marketing and spoiler info for WoW updates, and expansions, for just about every computer game out there. Why on earth can they not just tell us, "we are working onn encounter builder and we plan it to have these features when ready". Their lack of any information about what is being worked on just seems really unhelpful to me.
I've been a DDi subscriber since Day One and really like and use everything DDi is giving me. I have no complaints about what I get for my money - if I did I would simply not be a DDi Subscriber.
I wish a WotC employee could at least tell us exactly why they don't want to tell us anything. Have they done that and I missed it? If so, can someone point me to that post? I understand that they over promised and undelivered in the past. But unless they feel that unconfident about actually releasing the next thing they are working on (which would be very worrying), why can't they tell us what it is? Even if not when it might be ready?
Blakey the Confused.
He did:
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason is because things like this can lead to insider(Ha Ha) trading and stuff.
He did:
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason is because things like this can lead to insider(Ha Ha) trading and stuff.
Cheers, I missed that so thanks for pointing it out.
So, the question becomes then, how come wizards can give out info on books and every other computer firm can give out info on computer products, yet Wizards can't give out info on computer products?
That just makes no sense to me from any perspective. Can someone enlighten me?
If wizards are saying we're not giving you any info because we don't want to, then that's one thing. But if they are saying we're not because we can't, surely they can explain exactly why they can't?
So how come two years WOTC was telling everyone about these new tools coming out for 4th. If they were not suposted to say anything because they were a pubicly traded company? They did not have to adhere to the law then now they do?
This is what is referred to as a red herring falacy, my friend. You are correct in being suspect.
He did:
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason is because things like this can lead to insider(Ha Ha) trading and stuff.
Cheers, I missed that so thanks for pointing it out.
So, the question becomes then, how come wizards can give out info on books and every other computer firm can give out info on computer products, yet Wizards can't give out info on computer products?
That just makes no sense to me from any perspective. Can someone enlighten me?
If wizards are saying we're not giving you any info because we don't want to, then that's one thing. But if they are saying we're not because we can't, surely they can explain exactly why they can't?
Well my guess would be because with the books they are pretty much all done and sent to the printers, or at least they are at a stage where they are guaranteed to be out.
So how come two years WOTC was telling everyone about these new tools coming out for 4th. If they were not suposted to say anything because they were a pubicly traded company? They did not have to adhere to the law then now they do?
Well as we have not had any people come in an actually tell us the laws, my guess would be that in that situation 2 years agio they were indeed under the law.
Its not a matter of not obeying the law now and not then, but rather a different situation now and then.
Well my guess would be because with the books they are pretty much all done and sent to the printers, or at least they are at a stage where they are guaranteed to be out.
Hmm, could be but it seems unlikely.
Just for an example I popped to the Wizards home page to look for announcements. Back in April they announced a comic book range to be released in August. Does it take 4 months put get these things from printers to the streets? Maybe. In which case you're probably right. But I'd assume (and assumption is all this is) that we're talking less time than that. In which case they are announcing something before it's written. And from memory they always announce books way before they are out.
For me it feels like they will tell us what written stuff is in the pipeline and not what electronic stuff. At this stage I don't feel like being a DDi subscriber makes me much of an Insider at all.
So how come two years WOTC was telling everyone about these new tools coming out for 4th. If they were not suposted to say anything because they were a pubicly traded company? They did not have to adhere to the law then now they do?
This is what is referred to as a red herring falacy, my friend. You are correct in being suspect.
First, there are lots of facts being left out of his post. The presented view is a not only a complete distortion, it's done so on purpose.
They have said they will release tools when they are ready. In the last two years, they have released tools. The compendium, the character builder, the monster builder, and have kept them updated.
How they released those, is exactly the same way they are still releasing the tools. So what's the problem?
The reason they are doing it this way now, is because of what they did before. Get it? They screwed up, and are now following the right course. They learned.
Second, if he and you are wrong, will you come back and say so? I seriously doubt that. You will lay low for a while, waiting for something else to jump on and complain about.
Well my guess would be because with the books they are pretty much all done and sent to the printers, or at least they are at a stage where they are guaranteed to be out.
Hmm, could be but it seems unlikely.
Just for an example I popped to the Wizards home page to look for announcements. Back in April they announced a comic book range to be released in August. Does it take 4 months put get these things from printers to the streets? Maybe. In which case you're probably right. But I'd assume (and assumption is all this is) that we're talking less time than that. In which case they are announcing something before it's written. And from memory they always announce books way before they are out.
For me it feels like they will tell us what written stuff is in the pipeline and not what electronic stuff. At this stage I don't feel like being a DDi subscriber makes me much of an Insider at all.
I had the pleasure of talking to several of the art directors at GenCon last week, and we talked about their publishing model and how the books are made. Because I work in publishing and like to know what other companies do.
Planning out a book is much easier then software. A typo in chapter 1 doesn't cause the pages in chapter 2 to be blank. Here is how you schedule the release of a book.
You pick the date you want to release it. For example, my last self published book, I needed it by April 10th. So I planned for an April 2nd deliver. I then gave all the info to the printer. Trim size, full color, paper stock, cover stock, page count and so on. They then come back and say, to have an April 2nd delivery, we need files no later then Date X.
From there, I build the schedule backwards, making a staggered schedule.
You then meet those dates and ta da, you can plan to have a book printed a whole year in advance.
Thanks
Blakey
You pick the date you want to release it. For example, my last self published book, I needed it by April 10th. So I planned for an April 2nd deliver. I then gave all the info to the printer. Trim size, full color, paper stock, cover stock, page count and so on. They then come back and say, to have an April 2nd delivery, we need files no later then Date X.
From there, I build the schedule backwards, making a staggered schedule.
You then meet those dates and ta da, you can plan to have a book printed a whole year in advance.
Congratulations! You just described the typical software development cycle too. ;)
In view of the fact that we currently have *three* threads, all discussing the exact same topic, I am closing two of them. Discussion should continue in the thread here.
Again, the failure then wasn't in communication. It was in project management.
You offer a false choice. Personally? I would prefer:
"Update on project X: At the time of this statement it is in the Y stage of the production cycle, and Y2% complete within that stage."
"Update on project Y: We are X% complete with an initial specification. The next step will be an internal proof of concept"
"Update on project Z: Because of its dependency on X, no further progress can be made. When X is feature complete we will revisit Z"
"Update on project Q: It has been sent to QA. Once that hurdle is clear, a release date will be scheduled."
Notice how those are clear, unambiguous statements. There are no artifical release dates. No false promises. Other development houses provide just that type of information to customers of their subscription services. The precident does exist.
LOL.
Please. I'd love for you to provide a source for these "other development houses" that provide this information.
Even large companies that are producing huge projects (I've used Bungie and Halo and I'll do it again) don't give specifics about production until it is done. The best you'll get is vague teasers, "Harry is working on somethign really cool! You guys are gonna love it when you get your hands on this September 14th!"
This is not information most companies release, especially to consumers.
I think your expectations are a bit over-reaching and expecting WotC to provide this data is laughable at best and complaining about them not doing so is trolling at worst.
I can understand some of the others' complaints, "I just want to know what product they're working on, like is it the Encounter Builder or Map Builder?"
But, expecting specific internal development schedules...
Gimme a break. They don't even do that for print products which have release dates a year out.
(replying in this thread as per Mudbunny's request)
Well, they could always use this as a template for quarterly updates:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Just to provide a single quote:
User Interface
Status updated this report
Images of a prototype for the new user interface were made available in October: screenshots 1 screenshots 2 screenshots 3
The first three phases (of eight) of the client redesign was completed in Jan Prototypes are being developed in Silverlight, but the final platform is not yet decided. In Jan, the solitare and duel scenes were in the process of being outsourced. The complete redesign is scheduled to be completed in Q3 2010. A timeline for the construction and deployment of the new design will be clearer after duel scene construction is complete.
There has been a substantial re-skin of the client and the entirety of the Brown UI has been removed Responses have been mixed but initial reactions have been positive.
Also, there has been a community effort to improve the look of the current UI layout Community made and maintained skins can be found in the new Magic Online Customization Forum.
How can Blizzard tell us all about Cataclysm Expansion to WoW WAY in advance without actually saying exactly when it's coming out, but telling us (1) what they are working on and (2) approximately what will be in it?
My guess? Because the next tool has not been announced officially. When it does become "Announced" just like blizzards works, we'll get information.
You didnt have any Cataclysm information until after it was announced, nor starcraft 2 or any other software development.
Again, the failure then wasn't in communication. It was in project management.
You offer a false choice. Personally? I would prefer:
"Update on project X: At the time of this statement it is in the Y stage of the production cycle, and Y2% complete within that stage."
"Update on project Y: We are X% complete with an initial specification. The next step will be an internal proof of concept"
"Update on project Z: Because of its dependency on X, no further progress can be made. When X is feature complete we will revisit Z"
"Update on project Q: It has been sent to QA. Once that hurdle is clear, a release date will be scheduled."
Notice how those are clear, unambiguous statements. There are no artifical release dates. No false promises. Other development houses provide just that type of information to customers of their subscription services. The precident does exist.
LOL.
Please. I'd love for you to provide a source for these "other development houses" that provide this information.
Even large companies that are producing huge projects (I've used Bungie and Halo and I'll do it again) don't give specifics about production until it is done. The best you'll get is vague teasers, "Harry is working on somethign really cool! You guys are gonna love it when you get your hands on this September 14th!"
This is not information most companies release, especially to consumers.
I think your expectations are a bit over-reaching and expecting WotC to provide this data is laughable at best and complaining about them not doing so is trolling at worst.
I can understand some of the others' complaints, "I just want to know what product they're working on, like is it the Encounter Builder or Map Builder?"
But, expecting specific internal development schedules...
Gimme a break. They don't even do that for print products which have release dates a year out.
(replying in this thread as per Mudbunny's request)
Well, they could always use this as a template for quarterly updates:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Just to provide a single quote:User Interface
Status updated this report
Images of a prototype for the new user interface were made available in October: screenshots 1 screenshots 2 screenshots 3
The first three phases (of eight) of the client redesign was completed in Jan Prototypes are being developed in Silverlight, but the final platform is not yet decided. In Jan, the solitare and duel scenes were in the process of being outsourced. The complete redesign is scheduled to be completed in Q3 2010. A timeline for the construction and deployment of the new design will be clearer after duel scene construction is complete.
There has been a substantial re-skin of the client and the entirety of the Brown UI has been removed Responses have been mixed but initial reactions have been positive.
Also, there has been a community effort to improve the look of the current UI layout Community made and maintained skins can be found in the new Magic Online Customization Forum.
Are these threads not locked yet?
Sweet.
You've given me an example from a tool that has been, not only announced, but released. This is an upgrade schedule.
We're talking about an application in initial development. Not upgrades, or patches, or whatever.