I know A LOT of you are wondering what's going on with DDi tools as of lately. Well I can't say much, but I can say that there ARE some things being worked on, and I personally have gotten to see, test, and play with some of these things.
Unfortunately that's all the information I am able to give as of now until I've been given the "All Clear" to talk more openly about what we're working on.
And as soon as I get that, I'll let you know.
Michael Robles
Online Community Coordinator
Wizards of the Coast
I give you the "All Clear" to talk about these things.
Hey thanks. Well then 1st off I want to sa-HEYWAITAMINUTE!!!
Hey everyone, your friendly neighborhood Online Community Coordinator here with a quick update about DDi.
I know A LOT of you are wondering what's going on with DDi tools as of lately. Well I can't say much, but I can say that there ARE some things being worked on, and I personally have gotten to see, test, and play with some of these things.
Unfortunately that's all the information I am able to give as of now until I've been given the "All Clear" to talk more openly about what we're working on.
And as soon as I get that, I'll let you know.
Michael Robles
Online Community Coordinator
Wizards of the Coast
Ah, teasing us eh?
Nonetheless, I appreciate the fact that someone is letting us know at least that things are in the works. I was beginning to doubt that fact. Thanks.
So I tell you that there are tools being worked on, and no-one believes me.
Then Michael comes in here, says pretty nmuch the same thing, and just because he works at WotC, you believe him??
*grumble*
So I tell you that there are tools being worked on, and no-one believes me.
Then Michael comes in here, says pretty nmuch the same thing, and just because he works at WotC, you believe him??
Pretty much.
looks for button which lets him shock people through internet.
It's right next to the "Free Pony" key.
*grumble*
So I tell you that there are tools being worked on, and no-one believes me.
Then Michael comes in here, says pretty nmuch the same thing, and just because he works at WotC, you believe him??
I believed you. I even clapped.
Wait.
That's for fairies.
Thanks for the feedback. Can you at least tell us yes or no if these are new tools?
I think we can infer from his post that they are new tools. Or at least a new tool.
Thanks for the feedback. Can you at least tell us yes or no if these are new tools?
I think we can infer from his post that they are new tools. Or at least a new tool.
*Quickly runs back to check initial post to see if the phrase "New Tools" were anywhere in there.*
Thanks for the feedback. Can you at least tell us yes or no if these are new tools?
I think we can infer from his post that they are new tools. Or at least a new tool.
*Quickly runs back to check initial post to see if the phrase "New Tools" were anywhere in there.*
No, you did not say New Tools. But if you are testing stuff, I would hope that you are testing new tools, and not tools we already have, since those are working. That's were I am infering it might be new tools.
I would have to say, I would be dissappointed to hear that the next thing we get is a new and improved Monster Builder. I really am looking forward to the next tool, to help me in my game prep.
Hey everyone, your friendly neighborhood Online Community Coordinator here with a quick update about DDi.
I know A LOT of you are wondering what's going on with DDi tools as of lately. Well I can't say much, but I can say that there ARE some things being worked on, and I personally have gotten to see, test, and play with some of these things.
Unfortunately that's all the information I am able to give as of now until I've been given the "All Clear" to talk more openly about what we're working on.
And as soon as I get that, I'll let you know.
Michael Robles
Online Community Coordinator
Wizards of the Coast
THANK YOU!
Appreciate you sharing a wee bit with us.
I was beginning to wonder as well.
Thanks to you as well Mudbunny! 
Alternately...can you tell us if there will be more information (like an announcement of something) at Gen Con or at least some real info on what's being worked on and when we'll see it?
That falls under the "have to wait for an all clear".
Alternately...can you tell us if there will be more information (like an announcement of something) at Gen Con or at least some real info on what's being worked on and when we'll see it?
That falls under the "have to wait for an all clear".
Well, can you tell us when you will have an "all clear"?
he he he.
Alternately...can you tell us if there will be more information (like an announcement of something) at Gen Con or at least some real info on what's being worked on and when we'll see it?
That falls under the "have to wait for an all clear".
Well, can you tell us when you will have an "all clear"?
he he he.
As soon as I know, you guys will know shortly after.
Alternately...can you tell us if there will be more information (like an announcement of something) at Gen Con or at least some real info on what's being worked on and when we'll see it?
That falls under the "have to wait for an all clear".
Well, can you tell us when you will have an "all clear"?
he he he.
As soon as I know, you guys will know shortly after.
Can we try guessing and then watch your face for a reaction, that like accidently gives it away. Then it's not like you told us, we guessed it.
I'm guessing...a Mapper.
Can we try guessing and then watch your face for a reaction, that like accidently gives it away. Then it's not like you told us, we guessed it.
I'm guessing...a Mapper.
Can we try guessing and then watch your face for a reaction, that like accidently gives it away. Then it's not like you told us, we guessed it.
I'm guessing...a Mapper.
Now to test this with something I know we aren't getting.
Ponies! We are all getting real life ponies!
Now to test this with something I know we aren't getting.
Ponies! We are all getting real life ponies!
Can we try guessing and then watch your face for a reaction, that like accidently gives it away. Then it's not like you told us, we guessed it.
I'm guessing...a Mapper.
Now to test this with something I know we aren't getting.
Ponies! We are all getting real life ponies!
Its the My Little Pony tool for DDi. You can now use stats for all your favorite My Little Pony characters from Hasbros My Little Pony line.
Alternately...can you tell us if there will be more information (like an announcement of something) at Gen Con or at least some real info on what's being worked on and when we'll see it?
That falls under the "have to wait for an all clear".
Well, can you tell us when you will have an "all clear"?
he he he.
As soon as I know, you guys will know shortly after.
Can we try guessing and then watch your face for a reaction, that like accidently gives it away. Then it's not like you told us, we guessed it.
I'm guessing...a Mapper.
A mapper is what I am hoping for. But even if its not that, I am hoping it will be something new in any case. If we have waited over a year for nothing more than a few new bells and whistles for the Monster Builder, I will be annoyed.
Please wotc let this be substantial and not a sad joke of an update.
I had a negative post ready to go about the lack of substance in anything here but I'll stay opptomistically neutral.
Please wotc let this be substantial and not a sad joke of an update.
Yes, this post is just absolutely overflowing with neutrality. I can feel the optimism.
Hey everyone, your friendly neighborhood Online Community Coordinator here with a quick update about DDi.
I know A LOT of you are wondering what's going on with DDi tools as of lately. Well I can't say much, but I can say that there ARE some things being worked on, and I personally have gotten to see, test, and play with some of these things.
Unfortunately that's all the information I am able to give as of now until I've been given the "All Clear" to talk more openly about what we're working on.
And as soon as I get that, I'll let you know.
Michael Robles
Online Community Coordinator
Wizards of the Coast
What I love about this post is that it talks in multiples "some things being worked on", "play with some of these things".
Now, obviously it doesn't mean we're going to get 3 tools dropping next week, but it stil make me a bit happier about DDi than I was before I read the post.
Nothing against Mudbunny or other VCLs.
I had a negative post ready to go about the lack of substance in anything here but I'll stay opptomistically neutral.
Please wotc let this be substantial and not a sad joke of an update.
Yes, this post is just absolutely overflowing with neutrality. I can feel the optimism.
Asking for a real update is negative?
I'm opptomistic that after all these months of silence and no real advancement of the tools that wotc will have something big to tell us.
Its certainly less then blind fanboyism where wotc can do no harm yet not as bad as blind nerd rage that still holds wotc accountable for the ad at the back of the PHB1.
Call it what you will.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
We need to keep telling WotC about our concerns, just remember to be constructive when voicing them - and maybe we will get more feedback!
Anyhow, congratz to the DDI team for at least letting us know they are alive and working on the DDI software. I can't wait for the big news.
"We are working on tools, we just can't say whether they are new tools or updates of old tools" is always, in my opinion, better than "We can't tell you whether we are working on tools or not".
Thank you Mike and WotC for the update! I can't wait to see what's coming.
People will always complain - that WotC never gives updates, that their updates are not good enough, etc. - but I hope this is an indication that WotC is responding to the community's calls for better communication, specifically about DDi, and that they are not discouraged by the inevitable belly-aching. Anyway...
Thanks again for the update, WotC!
Wow, wasn't expecting to find this thread.
Thank you Mike and WotC for the update! I can't wait to see what's coming.
People will always complain - that WotC never gives updates, that their updates are not good enough, etc. - but I hope this is an indication that WotC is responding to the community's calls for better communication, specifically about DDi, and that they are not discouraged by the inevitable belly-aching. Anyway...
Thanks again for the update, WotC!
We are listening, reading and seeing the calls for better communication. Part of the reason we can only say certain things is because there are other factors that prevent us from saying too much. It's just how things work. We don't want history to repeat itself.
just testing the water but...how much is too much?
Not *that* much
We are listening, reading and seeing the calls for better communication. Part of the reason we can only say certain things is because there are other factors that prevent us from saying too much. It's just how things work. We don't want history to repeat itself.
Coming from a long-time DDi frustratee, I have to say this is exactly the sort of thing I've wanted to have. It's nice to hear from the mothership - the fact that you have made this post means that there is important information you want to drop but can't, which makes us all squee a little because it probably means something big.
Of course, we'll be disappointed if the news is, say, AT getting updated with new monsters, but even then, bad news is better to me than no news. It's a lot like reading a webcomic - the dreaded "personal issues" are the bane of many a webcomic fan, but as long as the occasional ping yields a pong, we'll accept and move on. On the other hand, a comic that appears stranded just sucks for everybody involved.
I just want to let you know that I'm glad you're "making the effort", so to speak but...
I'll believe it when I see it. Nothing against anyone here or anyone who is excited about the possibility of new tools from Wizards, because I really want to believe you as well. But, too much has been said, and theres been several occasions where it seems like we've had this news just to kind of "shut us up" for a wee bit.
I'm not saying I don't outright think you're lying, but I'm saying I don't think I can take your word for it.
I'll believe it when I see it...
Wow, wasn't expecting to find this thread.
Thank you Mike and WotC for the update! I can't wait to see what's coming.
People will always complain - that WotC never gives updates, that their updates are not good enough, etc. - but I hope this is an indication that WotC is responding to the community's calls for better communication, specifically about DDi, and that they are not discouraged by the inevitable belly-aching. Anyway...
Thanks again for the update, WotC!
We are listening, reading and seeing the calls for better communication. Part of the reason we can only say certain things is because there are other factors that prevent us from saying too much. It's just how things work. We don't want history to repeat itself.
It might help people understand why, if you could explain some of those factors.
For example, I understand you don't want to repeate history. But outside of that, what other factors are there?
Ok. I'm preparing for the flames.
Yeah, nothing like dousing a thread in gasoline and handing everyone a book of matches, then you can blame others for starting the fire.
Ok. I'm preparing for the flames.
I just want to let you know that I'm glad you're "making the effort", so to speak but...
I'll believe it when I see it. Nothing against anyone here or anyone who is excited about the possibility of new tools from Wizards, because I really want to believe you as well. But, too much has been said, and theres been several occasions where it seems like we've had this news just to kind of "shut us up" for a wee bit.
I'm not saying I don't outright think you're lying, but I'm saying I don't think I can take your word for it.
I'll believe it when I see it...
Eh, I don't see anything wrong with taking this stance. If the next announcement isn't about at least 1 new tool, I'm going to be upset. A whole year to hear they are releasing the Monster Builder out of beta? Would it cause me to stop DDi? No, I get lots of use out of what they offer.
But I'm less likely to want to promote DDi to other people in my gaming group. The monster builder is great, but again, I need more then just that.
So we shall see come August, when I'm at Gen Con. WOot.
It might help people understand why, if you could explain some of those factors.
For example, I understand you don't want to repeate history. But outside of that, what other factors are there?
Well, there is the whole "expectation management" issue. WotC got burned by overpromising and underdelivering (like, for example, Microsoft did with Longhorn/Vista) and would rather take the underpromising/overdelivering stance next (just like, for example, Microsoft and Windows 7
).Then there are competitive issues to take into account, business positioning, release schedule, etc...
There are many reasons why we can't talk about future stuff freely. I am sorry for that.
It might help people understand why, if you could explain some of those factors.
For example, I understand you don't want to repeate history. But outside of that, what other factors are there?
Well, there is the whole "expectation management" issue. WotC got burned by overpromising and underdelivering (like, for example, Microsoft did with Longhorn/Vista) and would rather take the underpromising/overdelivering stance next (just like, for example, Microsoft and Windows 7 ).
Then there are competitive issues to take into account, business positioning, release schedule, etc...
There are many reasons why we can't talk about future stuff freely. I am sorry for that.
Working in a similar field, I fully understand. I just think if people knew the reasons why you can't talk, they might relax a little.
When I worked at Midway Amusement games, every phone call I made, I know was recorded. My whole job was one big NDA. When I was a tester for DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) everything I did on the forums was watched very closesly to make sure I didn't slip up.
When your company answers to a company like Hasbro, it's best to just take the loose lips sink ships attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro didn't have a lot to say about the failure to bring the full DDi to market even late.
When your company answers to a company like Hasbro, it's best to just take the loose lips sink ships attitude.
This. Being in my position (where I'm SUPPOSED to talk) it's super hard for me. I want to be like "HEY GUYS! CHECK OUT THIS AWEOME [CENSORED]!!" But then if it falls through I, and eventually the company, look bad. And that's not what we want.
When your company answers to a company like Hasbro, it's best to just take the loose lips sink ships attitude.
This. Being in my position (where I'm SUPPOSED to talk) it's super hard for me. I want to be like "HEY GUYS! CHECK OUT THIS AWEOME [CENSORED]!!" But then if it falls through I, and eventually the company, look bad. And that's not what we want.
Which is followed by the Michael gets fired step, which no-one wants either.
When your company answers to a company like Hasbro, it's best to just take the loose lips sink ships attitude.
This. Being in my position (where I'm SUPPOSED to talk) it's super hard for me. I want to be like "HEY GUYS! CHECK OUT THIS AWEOME [CENSORED]!!" But then if it falls through I, and eventually the company, look bad. And that's not what we want.
Which is followed by the Michael gets fired step, which no-one wants either.
Very true. And you think I've got it bad? I get to tell Mudbunny "Hey, I know this much, but you can only say LESS." So when my VCLs, ORCs, and anyone else say things, they're usually saying it because we said they could.
I have no issue with the "we can't say now" issue, I fully understand that.
I can't speak for everyone, so simply from my pov I'll ad this.
Not being able to talk is not a big issue until you look at how long no one has been talking for. I know you realize this, and I know you can do nothing about it, but someone on that back end needs to give the dev team a serious shove. We should be eagerly expecting adventure tool item 3 by now, at a minimum.
When your company answers to a company like Hasbro, it's best to just take the loose lips sink ships attitude.
This. Being in my position (where I'm SUPPOSED to talk) it's super hard for me. I want to be like "HEY GUYS! CHECK OUT THIS AWEOME [CENSORED]!!" But then if it falls through I, and eventually the company, look bad. And that's not what we want.
Which is followed by the Michael gets fired step, which no-one wants either.
Very true. And you think I've got it bad? I get to tell Mudbunny "Hey, I know this much, but you can only say LESS." So when my VCLs, ORCs, and anyone else say things, they're usually saying it because we said they could.
Yup. Michael (and the rest of the guys at WotC) know the whole picture.
I only know bits and pieces (most of which I am not allowed to say anything about), but not how they connect together.
And Michael and Trevor have gotten really good at ignoring my nagging, suggestions, nagging.
I understand that some things cannot be said. I'm not a big fan of the utter silence, but I can understand that Hasbro can make things more complicated. Honestly, I've felt a lot better the past week or so where guys like Mr. Robles have simply said "There are things to be said but unfortunately I can't say them now but please be patient." Even "no" news in this case is some news. It at least says to me "We're working on something, and while of course, anything can happen and go wrong, we have hope that we'll make you all happy soon." And that's good enough for now.
So thanks guys. You have a generally thankless job, but just know that you are appreciated.
I sympathize. We want information. You have information, but you can't give it out.
All we know is that "there ARE some things being worked on, and I personally have gotten to see, test, and play with some of these things."
Which is, in fact, not new information at all. We've heard from official sources for years that things are being worked on. And we've heard that the character visualizer and some kind of mapper/virtual table were in beta and were being played with, and even shown demos all the way back to the announcement of 4E/DDI.
So why bother saying anything now? Especially when there's no useful information to share.
More information would be "We ARE going to announce something exciting for Adventure Tools at GenCON." If you are two weeks out from GenCON, and it's not clear that the "things" will be ready to announce, what good does it do to hint at anything now?
I'll infer that you've used NEW tools, that they have progressed from the "demos" we've seen in the past, that you are excited about them, and that you started the thread to reassure us that the DDI team is still working hard to produce the adventure tools that we all want to see.
I guess the next tidbit I'd like know is whether or not we'll get NEW information at GenCon. And if so, shall i keep tabs on this thread to find out?
Not being able to talk is not a big issue until you look at how long no one has been talking for. I know you realize this, and I know you can do nothing about it, but someone on that back end needs to give the dev team a serious shove. We should be eagerly expecting adventure tool item 3 by now, at a minimum.
I'm sorry to say that I partly agree here. I was one of the more optimistic people here, defending the club - but I keep finding myself coming to this section in hopes to find some info about "what's up-and-coming" for DDi, but there's been nothing of the sort - until this.
While I still don't feel as if I'm being 'ripped off', I have to admit that I expected to see more of what was initially promoted to start showing up a LOT faster.
Not being able to talk is not a big issue until you look at how long no one has been talking for. I know you realize this, and I know you can do nothing about it, but someone on that back end needs to give the dev team a serious shove. We should be eagerly expecting adventure tool item 3 by now, at a minimum.
I'm sorry to say that I partly agree here. I was one of the more optimistic people here, defending the club - but I keep finding myself coming to this section in hopes to find some info about "what's up-and-coming" for DDi, but there's been nothing of the sort - until this.
While I still don't feel as if I'm being 'ripped off', I have to admit that I expected to see more of what was initially promoted to start showing up a LOT faster.
I understand.
We are working on cool stuff. We hope you guys will be very very happy
PS: Oh look, I got the Staff badge now
I understand.
We are working on cool stuff. We hope you guys will be very very happy
PS: Oh look, I got the Staff badge now
Talk is cheap.
It's been two years.
Results are proof of your statement, and we've yet to see results.
After two years.
Not saying you're lying, but I am saying that It's hard to believe you.
I'm just scared that I'll jump in head first again and hear "Yeah, we've got this cool Map Builder we're putting in the Adventure Tools and we've got plans for a NPC Builder in 2011!" Now those would be okay tools, but I want (and need) an Encounter Builder. One that allows me to port it via my USB drive between my home and work machines.
Yes, I know the piracy issue, but I came up with a solution eariler in the week for a blog post. Have the application store the user name and password of the person who downloads the libraries (or whatever methodology is used) in an encrypted file. Whenever someone opens the app, have it demand the user name and password, and verify it against the combo that is stored locally. No traffic over the web is required, so people like me who can't access the DDi log in site from work (even though I can get around the log in at work by logging into the Customer Service section then coming back to the forums) can use it wherever we are. Also, the attached encrypted combo would allow WotC to track what ID was sharing their data, allowing them to prosecute anyone who "shares" data (which I'm all in favor of.)
I could never update my DDi tools at work because the attempt is blocked in-house. I originally installed the CB/MB before our current filter was installed. That's why I was so religiously dedicated to Masterplan before the C&D crippled it. It allowed me to port my campaign to work so I could do my planning at lunch.
Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm also itching to subscribe again. Part of me wants to wait for NY Comic Con in October though. Last year, just a couple of weeks after I bought a year's subscription, I went to Comic Con and saw WotC giving out nice loot to people who signed up at the Con. I know it's greedy, but I like loot. (And I don't know, but I feel kind of wrong just doing the "sign up for a month, grab everything, let it lapse" deal.)
So can anyone give a hint as to what's coming and when? Please?
Okay, shutting up now.
So can anyone give a hint as to what's coming and when? Please?
Let me see what I can weasle out of WotC_Microbless.
I understand.
We are working on cool stuff. We hope you guys will be very very happy
PS: Oh look, I got the Staff badge now
Talk is cheap.
It's been two years.
Results are proof of your statement, and we've yet to see results.
After two years.
Not saying you're lying, but I am saying that It's hard to believe you.
Oh, I understand, I understand very well
I understand your frustration of not knowing what's going to happen (if anything at all) and the passion you (and all you guys) put in the game.
All I can say for now is that *I* am not going away
and *I* will try the darnest to make sure to do what's best for the game and the community.We are working on some very nice stuff and I can't wait to be able to show it off
Oh look, I got the Staff badge now
Congrats Paolo!!!
By the way,
Please forgive my frustration. I still feel that the DDi subscription is a good value as I love the D&D content that runs through this place.
But I have a similar subscription with a 3d software and content company by the name of Daz3d, and to say that they give me a LOT more for my dollar than DDi would be a major understatement. I sincerely hope that WotC doesn't plan on increasing the subscription price each year that a new tool is included. Many of us here have been hoping for more (and living a confident dream that it would come true - only to find that it was only a dream) right from the start, realizing that DDi had to start somewhere, we gave you a chance (and funding) to make that a reality. The current line-up of tools, both of them, are great. But in the scope of a "Role Playing" community, the offering of just those two tools falls very short from what one should expect. To make up for this, there are links all over these forums regarding similar tools that are offered for free, or for a small donation. Asking us for more upon the release of a new tool would be a major slap in the face, since it was us who funded the whole thing from the get go.
Most of us who have DDi subscriptions also purchase WotC products at stores, world-wide. One of the major things missing from a subscription such as this is that we subscribers never get any discounts for any of your products. Daz3d gives their members substantial discounts, making it difficult to NOT become a subscriber. Aside from discounts (which come each month - and sometimes more often - including ALL holidays and special dates - not just US one's either) they are constantly offering their subscribers FREE products - and not junk - but good products! There's nothing going on like that here - aside from Dungeon and Dragon magazines, which are nearly the only reason to have a subscription - so there goes that as an added benefit.
We are working on some very nice stuff and I can't wait to be able to show it off
Can you at least say if WOTC will say what it is and maybe show it at Gen Con?
Oh, I understand, I understand very well
I understand your frustration of not knowing what's going to happen (if anything at all) and the passion you (and all you guys) put in the game.
All I can say for now is that *I* am not going away
We are working on some very nice stuff and I can't wait to be able to show it off
Keep this up and you will become my new favourite poster
We are working on some very nice stuff and I can't wait to be able to show it off
Can you at least say if WOTC will say what it is and maybe show it at Gen Con?
No, unfortunately I can't say that.
I understand.
We are working on cool stuff. We hope you guys will be very very happy
PS: Oh look, I got the Staff badge now
Talk is cheap.
It's been two years.
Results are proof of your statement, and we've yet to see results.
After two years.
Not saying you're lying, but I am saying that It's hard to believe you.
Oh, I understand, I understand very well
I understand your frustration of not knowing what's going to happen (if anything at all) and the passion you (and all you guys) put in the game.
All I can say for now is that *I* am not going away
We are working on some very nice stuff and I can't wait to be able to show it off
You know, we once knew this guy who was really thrilled with DDi too and thrilled to show us. He was hyping and telling us how awesome it was going to be and pretty much doing what you're doing and saying what you're saying.
What was his name?
Oh yeah!
Bill Slavisek...
Old horse is old and beaten. *yawn*
So I say thanks for dropping in Paolo. Since talk is in fact cheap, I have voiced my disappointment by letting my ddi subscription lapse 6 months ago. I always find it amusing that many of the grumpiest posters have not done the same
I believe Wizards is well aware that talk is cheap. At least, the long silence about the adventure tools after things kind of flopped 2 years ago suggests that they do. I am actually fine with what they've told us - clearly they have something new and either it's not quite ready or they're waiting for GenCon or whatever, but heckling staff is definitely not going to help the cause.
So I say thanks for dropping in Paolo. Since talk is in fact cheap, I have voiced my disappointment by letting my ddi subscription lapse 6 months ago. I always find it amusing that many of the grumpiest posters have not done the same
I really want to echo this post. Thank you to Paolo as well as Michael for sharing what they can, when they can. I try to not kill the messenger, even the fact that one of them is on the team doesn't make it any better to beat on him. It's not going to push the software out faster.
I agree with you on the other part as well. My subscription lapsed last month, and while I miss it more every day, my monetary silence tells the PTB at Wizards more than my drum-beating on a message board.
The work that goes into our two monthly magazines is enormously awesome - and the official work that goes into those, as well as the published material gets neatly collected into the incredibly reliable, and comprehensive Character Builder and Monster Builder tools - not to mention the Compendium. Although I haven't needed to use the Monster Builder yet, I love it and know I will be putting it to greater use in the future. I only used the Character Builder twice. I love that too. It's my players that use the CB all the time. Once they get to third level, they'll have a choice to make.
I actually came to DDi in wait for some of the other tools to come. I don't mind funding WotC along the way - especially since the e-magazines are so cool! The most I've been getting out of my subscription has been Dungeon and Dragon magazines - which are quite awesome. I just hope that the cost of the subscription doesn't inflate beyond their worth.
I don't mean to imply that everyone who is dissatisfied should drop their subscription either, other than maybe the most disgruntled among us. I did it because I thought it would be more effective than just venting my frustration on the forums. Can't say it has made a difference, but I saved some money.
On the other hand, nerd rage sort of validates the silent treatment from WotC, and more silence on the matter is the last thing I want...
But I actually feel that your (and others) silent treatment (especially via not subscribing) is probably the best way to go. If they keep the price low enough where I feel that I'm getting my moneys worth from Dungeon and Dragon magazines - I'll be fine. But, who knows... I may just join the silent club after my subscription runs out - if I get tired of waiting for something useful.
Funny thing. I mentioned at Daz what I said earlier, comparing them to DDi... they gave me more $$$ to spend in their store! I just love those guys!
Funny thing. I mentioned at Daz what I said earlier, comparing them to DDi... they gave me more $$$ to spend in their store! I just love those guys!
D, I think you could be on to something here. I am a member at Barnes & Noble, and for $25 a year, you get 10% off all purchases and I think free shipping online, with occasional members-only coupons for more. I read a lot, so it's a great deal for me.
So, how about a 10% off coupon every month for DDi subscribers to spend on any WotC product?
It will be interesting to see if WOTC does not say anything about a new tool for DDi at Gen Con how many people will still drink the WOTC Kool Aid.
It will be interesting to see if WOTC does not say anything about a new tool for DDi at Gen Con how many people will still drink the WOTC Kool Aid.
I can tell you that if they don't, I'm done.
Even if they show a new tool if they don't give a release date, I'm done.
My group is tired of paying for something that we can just buy once a year and be updated on.
So, yeah, come gen-con's end I'll be voting with my wallet. Because it's apparent that doing anything on these boards doesn't garner any attention or any incentive for the DDI staff to get anything done in a timely manner or to give any inkling of what we might be getting.
It will be interesting to see if WOTC does not say anything about a new tool for DDi at Gen Con how many people will still drink the WOTC Kool Aid.
I see these Kool Aid references every now again but what do they mean? I understand it's a drink, but is it a standard thing in America for companies to buy people drinks as a marketing gimick?
The phrase references this tragedy as hyperbole for blind devotion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
The phrase references this tragedy as hyperbole for blind devotion.
Cheers, that kinda makes more sense now.
Although it was Flavor-Aid rather than Kool-Aid apparently
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
The phrase references this tragedy as hyperbole for blind devotion.
Cheers, that kinda makes more sense now.
Although it was Flavor-Aid rather than Kool-Aid apparently
If you would like to read more about the life and times of the Kool Aid man.
I can tell you that if they don't, I'm done.
Even if they show a new tool if they don't give a release date, I'm done.
I am curious as to why you think that WotC would all of a sudden change it's MO for talking about DDI tools. Since they missed the initial release date a couple of years ago, they have been very clear that they will annoucne the next tool when it is ready for release, not before.
So, yeah, come gen-con's end I'll be voting with my wallet. Because it's apparent that doing anything on these boards doesn't garner any attention or any incentive for the DDI staff to get anything done in a timely manner or to give any inkling of what we might be getting.
It has ben posted before that when getting things done, there is a triangle of choices you can choose from:
1 - Quality
2 - Cost
3 - Time
The catch is that you can only pick two out of the three. It is quite obvious to me that WotC has chosen Quality and Cost.
I would be quite happy if they change the way that they do things and start announcing things in advance. However, being realistic, I don't expect them to do so any time soon.
If there are tools that are in a state ready for release at GenCon, then I suspect that we may hear about them, *if* they would not get lost in amongst all the rest of the announcements by WotC at GenCon.
Last I checked, that is one of the main reasons for GenCon's existence.
I am curious as to why you think that WotC would all of a sudden change it's MO for talking about DDI tools. Since they missed the initial release date a couple of years ago, they have been very clear that they will annoucne the next tool when it is ready for release, not before.
Really, it strikes me as a fair position. I'm sure Kyros is fully aware of their practice of not announcing anything (because it is very hard to miss the constant reminders around here). Kyros seems to be saying that - with full knowledge of their previous behavior - if WotC adheres to that practice any further, he's is finished with DDI.
People get tired of things, and (not to put words in his mouth), Kyros seems to be tired of "we're working on stuff; we'll surprise you with it later." I can dig it.
Personally, I like what I have with DDI*, so I simply assume that WotC will be delivering nothing further. One, I'm happy enough with the tools that I don't care if more come out, and two, I can't be disappointed. ;)
* Just re-upped for another year; it's more goodies than any other game I own, so it's all upside from where I'm standing
It has ben posted before that when getting things done, there is a triangle of choices you can choose from:
1 - Quality
2 - Cost
3 - Time
Its up the consumer to normally choose the quality and time, at that point price will take care of itself.
The quality and cost are clearly debatable as its being debated on these very forums. Time? Well, time could be forever since there is nothing but silence.
I've let my DDI expire. I hope they announce something at gencon that will make me want to re-up.
It has ben posted before that when getting things done, there is a triangle of choices you can choose from:
1 - Quality
2 - Cost
3 - Time
Its up the consumer to normally choose the quality and time, at that point price will take care of itself.
The quality and cost are clearly debatable as its being debated on these very forums. Time? Well, time could be forever since there is nothing but silence.
I've let my DDI expire. I hope they announce something at gencon that will make me want to re-up.
Sorry, I was unclear.
Quality is what standard of quality the producer of the tools wants them to be programmed up to.
Time is the length of time that the producer wants to spend on producing the tool.
Price is how much the producer is willing to throw at the project.
Once you choose two, the third one will be chosen for you.
From my understanding, WotC has chosen to focus on quality and cost.
of course, it is *always* up to the consumer to determine whether or not the resulting tool is up to what the consumer wants. For some people, the tools are amazing, and the year delay between releases is acceptable. For others, it is not.
WotC knows and accepts this. They chose their current MO for DDI reporting well aware that there are people who would be unhappy with the decision.
D, I think you could be on to something here. I am a member at Barnes & Noble, and for $25 a year, you get 10% off all purchases and I think free shipping online, with occasional members-only coupons for more. I read a lot, so it's a great deal for me.
So, how about a 10% off coupon every month for DDi subscribers to spend on any WotC product?
To add to this, as much as I love Amazon, they should probably limit the discount to brick and mortar stores to help keep them going. Amazon already provides more than a 10% discount anyway.
You know this gave me an idea about pdfs. A lot of people were saying that they didn't want to pay full price for a pdf and they thought the physical book should come with a discount coupon. WotC didn't want to do this supposedly because of fear of people stealing the coupons/codes. They could instead do it the other way around; you buy a pdf and you get emailed a coupon code that gives you 25% or whatever off the hardcover book. I know this isn't really related to DDI but I thought it was an interesting idea.
Joe
Not to derail the thread but I'm a but unclear as to how Amazon can sell the books are a huge discount and yet I almost never see anything but cover price at the FLGS. Does Wizards discount books to Amazon? Are they really marked up that much?
A couple of reasons
1 - Their high volume of sales means that they can drop the prices to a low point and still make a profit.
2 - They have only warehouses, thus no need to pay for other buildings, employees, etc.
3 - The volume that they order in menas that they have the ability to pressure publishers to sell the books (to Amazon) at a lower price.
Now that is how I understand it. I may be wrong.
Not to derail the thread but I'm a but unclear as to how Amazon can sell the books are a huge discount and yet I almost never see anything but cover price at the FLGS. Does Wizards discount books to Amazon? Are they really marked up that much?
A couple of reasons
1 - Their high volume of sales means that they can drop the prices to a low point and still make a profit.
2 - They have only warehouses, thus no need to pay for other buildings, employees, etc.
3 - The volume that they order in menas that they have the ability to pressure publishers to sell the books (to Amazon) at a lower price.
Now that is how I understand it. I may be wrong.
Let's not forget that the FLGS is a dying breed. They need to scratch out every dollar that they can just to be able to open the doors. If you, the local consumer, want your local FLGS to survive, you should be paying retail price with a smile.
Jharii I can't smile because the difference is just huge. When I look at Amazon price vs FLGS price and I see 34% higher that means that the FLGS is getting 33-34% margin + whatever margin Amazon is getting. I don't think I've ever gotten those kind of markups in any business I've been in except maybe food at the Drive In Movie Theater.
Actually I just looked up the MM 3 and its was more than 40% more than FLGS. That is quite a premium.
Jharii I can't smile because the difference is just huge. When I look at Amazon price vs FLGS price and I see 34% higher that means that the FLGS is getting 33-34% margin + whatever margin Amazon is getting. I don't think I've ever gotten those kind of markups in any business I've been in except maybe food at the Drive In Movie Theater.
Actually I just looked up the MM 3 and its was more than 40% more than FLGS. That is quite a premium.
I can't disagree that the price point is tempting. Unfortunately, that's the nature of Amazon/Wal-Mart/Coolstuffinc/Etc. These types of companies have been driving the small business out of existence for years.
It's a commitment that only you can make with yourself. Possibly talk to the FLGS to have some type of membership-based gaming club that receives discounts when you join. If they have a place that you can gather and RP, they may welcome the idea.
I wish I knew what else to say on that. It's just the nature of a free market.
Mudbunny this is probably a dumb question but. Is WOTC the publisher? I mean so they could decide to sell books to the FLGS at the same price they sell to Amazon or visa versa or does WOTC just write and then somebody else publishes.
I honestly don't know enough to know if I am even using the proper terms.
Not to derail the thread but I'm a but unclear as to how Amazon can sell the books are a huge discount and yet I almost never see anything but cover price at the FLGS. Does Wizards discount books to Amazon? Are they really marked up that much?
Quantity, and low overhead. If it comes from Amazon, that means it's actually sitting on a shelf in a GIANT warehouse. I mean GIANT. Which is right next to a Main UPS shipping center. They can literally walk a package over.
So it's pull, box, lable and ship. The first few years, Amazon didn't make a profit, because it sunk all it's money back into making it's process better and faster and more accurate.
And they have a deal with UPS where UPS have drivers dedicated to delivering just their packages.
Mudbunny this is probably a dumb question but. Is WOTC the publisher? I mean so they could decide to sell books to the FLGS at the same price they sell to Amazon or visa versa or does WOTC just write and then somebody else publishes.
Jharii I can't smile because the difference is just huge. When I look at Amazon price vs FLGS price and I see 34% higher that means that the FLGS is getting 33-34% margin + whatever margin Amazon is getting. I don't think I've ever gotten those kind of markups in any business I've been in except maybe food at the Drive In Movie Theater.
Actually I just looked up the MM 3 and its was more than 40% more than FLGS. That is quite a premium.
I can answer, I work in publishing.
Yes, they are the publisher. The write, design, develope the books, which are manufactured in China. I'm not sure how their distrubtion is set up, but it doesn't seem to be a third party. Since they put out a catalog for stores only, that seems to say they distrubute themselves.
For example, comic book publishers often use a company like Diamond to get their books in the stores. And really right now, Diamond is the only company doing it on a large enough scale. Diamond buys copies of the books from the publishers, and then takes orders from stores.
And they have a deal with UPS where UPS have drivers dedicated to delivering just their packages.
And that may have changed since my last few orders (not just D&D books) for the last few months have been delivered by: FedEx, USPS, and what may just be a courier company or some small delivery company whose name I had never heard of before (and dont' remember). I haven't received anything by UPS for several months from them. (I'm also a Prime member so not only do I get lower prices than the FLGS but I get free 2-day shipping which usually ends up being next day since the warehouse isn't too far from me)
I can;t really find any good source of info, exctep for the Wizards twitter feed, and that's not great. anyone know fi someone is liveblogging or streaming?
I would be a bit dismayed if the price did jump a significant amount due to the addition of one tool which apparently people have been waiting a long while for. A dollar or two wont necessarilythrow a wrench in whether or not I continue buying DDi, especially if it's worth it (I know I shouldn't encourage them, they already suck enough money out of me
Not that I really mind funding my pass time)So what ideas have we compiled thus far?
1.) Map Builder (I would hope they would print in full one inch by one inch grids because we already have a map maker www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20... which is essentially useless especially if you can't drop about $100 on some tiles which are out of production on E-Bay)
2.) NPC Maker (I'm curious to know how they'd do this. Just a portrait with a list of qualities to slather underneath it?)
3.) Encounter Builder (Correct me if I'm wrong which I probably am being I've never tried, but can't you export the monsters from the monster builder into something like Microsoft Word so that you can literally just print out the monsters all on one sheet and viola, encounter?)
4.) Adventure Maker (I would, personally, like this. While it could be emulated almost to the T with say Microsoft Word, I would like a tool where it allows you to make an adventure resembling the premade ones. Basically it just comes preformated and allows you fill in the information, import monsters, and if there is a map maker, put in small maps with the dots for starting positions, traps, etc.)
I admit I don't have or understand the rage being I've only been a DDi member for only a month and have enjoyed it thus far.
And just throwing it out there as an Android fanboy. Maybe the tools can be made for the Android as apps, and also for the iPhone/iTouch users out there? I would love to just be able to bring my phone and access characters and monsters. Or the compendium could be released as an app seeing as to how it doesn't really work very well on my phone's browser.
So is there any news yet?
I can;t really find any good source of info, exctep for the Wizards twitter feed, and that's not great. anyone know fi someone is liveblogging or streaming?
Well here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Someone says that WOTC is giving tthe same line they have been feeding everyone for awhile. "we have cool stuff coming but not going to tell you what it is/ show you yet."
Going to be fun on these forms I think.
Mudbunny this is probably a dumb question but. Is WOTC the publisher? I mean so they could decide to sell books to the FLGS at the same price they sell to Amazon or visa versa or does WOTC just write and then somebody else publishes.
Jharii I can't smile because the difference is just huge. When I look at Amazon price vs FLGS price and I see 34% higher that means that the FLGS is getting 33-34% margin + whatever margin Amazon is getting. I don't think I've ever gotten those kind of markups in any business I've been in except maybe food at the Drive In Movie Theater.
Actually I just looked up the MM 3 and its was more than 40% more than FLGS. That is quite a premium.
I can answer, I work in publishing.
Yes, they are the publisher. The write, design, develope the books, which are manufactured in China. I'm not sure how their distrubtion is set up, but it doesn't seem to be a third party. Since they put out a catalog for stores only, that seems to say they distrubute themselves.
For example, comic book publishers often use a company like Diamond to get their books in the stores. And really right now, Diamond is the only company doing it on a large enough scale. Diamond buys copies of the books from the publishers, and then takes orders from stores.
A correction to this, Random House is their distrubitor.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
I really don't like to be Mr. Negative...but for for WOTC_Microbless to hop on and stir the pot before GenCON irritates the hell out of me. I spent the week eagerly waiting for DDi news, only to realize there isn't any.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
We had people who were almost begging me to get a WotC employee to come onto the forums and say that DDI tools were still being worked on. He didn't have to say what, but he had to say that they were being worked on.
And now you appear to be saying that, because he didn't say what you were expecting, that he shouldn't have said anything?
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
You're not pleased with having a Character Builder and Monster Builder for the price you are paying now?
If WotC does release a new tool, chances are they are going to increase the price of admission also.
I don't really understand this whole "quitting D&DI" because no new tools are coming out. I can understand quitting because the CB and MB aren't living up to expectations, but it seems unanimous that the CB and MB are very useful, functional tools. In addition, you're getting two digital magazines that add to the content.
You pretty much don't have to buy books anymore to play D&D forever with a D&D Insider account...
So, why quit because there's no new tool being announced yet?
Quit because the CB sucks. Sure. Quit because of no new tool? Wtf?
I really don't like to be Mr. Negative...but for for WOTC_Microbless to hop on and stir the pot before GenCON irritates the hell out of me. I spent the week eagerly waiting for DDi news, only to realize there isn't any.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
You are correct. "Stirring the pot" as you put it was NOT my intent. My intent was to let you know that
- There is an official presence on the boards
- This official presence is listening to you, AND reporting back to his superiors
- "Something" is being worked on.
While I know it's annoying for me to keep saying "something", it's all I can say for the time being. I would rather come in here, and say that I've seen/tested/played with "something" then NOT come in here at all.
I was not at GenCon this year and therefore was not involved with the meetings where they discussed what was/wasn't going to be said. If I was then maybe I could have been given that "all clear" to say things like "Hey guys, look for these announcements, but not these".
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
I really don't like to be Mr. Negative...but for for WOTC_Microbless to hop on and stir the pot before GenCON irritates the hell out of me. I spent the week eagerly waiting for DDi news, only to realize there isn't any.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
You are correct. "Stirring the pot" as you put it was NOT my intent. My intent was to let you know that
- There is an official presence on the boards
- This official presence is listening to you, AND reporting back to his superiors
- "Something" is being worked on.
While I know it's annoying for me to keep saying "something", it's all I can say for the time being. I would rather come in here, and say that I've seen/tested/played with "something" then NOT come in here at all.
I was not at GenCon this year and therefore was not involved with the meetings where they discussed what was/wasn't going to be said. If I was then maybe I could have been given that "all clear" to say things like "Hey guys, look for these announcements, but not these".
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
At this point Microbless, you might want to see about going back to the powers that be, and find out if there is ANYTHING specific you can say.
I really don't like to be Mr. Negative...but for for WOTC_Microbless to hop on and stir the pot before GenCON irritates the hell out of me. I spent the week eagerly waiting for DDi news, only to realize there isn't any.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
You are correct. "Stirring the pot" as you put it was NOT my intent. My intent was to let you know that
- There is an official presence on the boards
- This official presence is listening to you, AND reporting back to his superiors
- "Something" is being worked on.
While I know it's annoying for me to keep saying "something", it's all I can say for the time being. I would rather come in here, and say that I've seen/tested/played with "something" then NOT come in here at all.
I was not at GenCon this year and therefore was not involved with the meetings where they discussed what was/wasn't going to be said. If I was then maybe I could have been given that "all clear" to say things like "Hey guys, look for these announcements, but not these".
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
At this point Microbless, you might want to see about going back to the powers that be, and find out if there is ANYTHING specific you can say.
I understand the community's frustration, I really do (as I was part of it until early this year).
But we've decided to talk about specifics when we're ready. I can swear to you
that we're working on stuff, I can say that you won't have to wait for too long and I can say it's probably going to be well received.Other than this, please stay tuned
I understand the community's frustration, I really do (as I was part of it until early this year).
But we've decided to talk about specifics when we're ready. I can swear to you
Other than this, please stay tuned
Thank you Paolo for chiming in! There you go guys! Now I may have been the one that's seen/tested/played with things, but now you've got it straight from the man who's building/coding/working on them!
I understand the community's frustration, I really do (as I was part of it until early this year).
But we've decided to talk about specifics when we're ready. I can swear to you
Other than this, please stay tuned
Thank you Paolo for chiming in! There you go guys! Now I may have been the one that's seen/tested/played with things, but now you've got it straight from the man who's building/coding/working on them!
Here's the thing. I accept that you don't want to say anything, until you are sure that what is happening is going to happen.
So coming and saying that you are going to say something soon, well wouldn't that mean you are in fact sure that what you are working on IS going to be released?
As I said before, actions speak louder then words. "we have been working on something" has been said by WOTC staff and VCL here for a very long time.
"We will say something soon" could mean that when they do decide to say something again from a WOTC staff member all they will say again is. "yes, still working on something." Why is it frustrating? Because that is all anyone from WOTC seems to say about DDi no matter what. Its getting old.
WOTC put up or shut up.
As I said before, actions speak louder then words. "we have been working on something" has been said by WOTC staff and VCL here for a very long time.
"We will say something soon" could mean that when they do decide to say something again from a WOTC staff member all they will say again is. "yes, still working on something." Why is it frustrating? Because that is all anyone from WOTC seems to say about DDi no matter what. Its getting old.
WOTC put up or shut up.
Soon
Soon is relitive. It can me different things to different people. In this case I think "end of the week" when I hear soon. But you or someone else might think end of the month or season.
Why should it matter to you in the 1st place? You have stated before you wont purchase DDI unless everything they had hoped to release is released.
And even then I think that that was a load of bull caca. I dont think you will or would ever purchase it. Your just here to argue with people and bust WOTC's balls.
Go back to Paizotonia
I understand the community's frustration, I really do (as I was part of it until early this year).
But we've decided to talk about specifics when we're ready. I can swear to you
Other than this, please stay tuned
Thank you Paolo for chiming in! There you go guys! Now I may have been the one that's seen/tested/played with things, but now you've got it straight from the man who's building/coding/working on them!
This is going to sound a lot harsher than I mean it, but...look, I really like the tools we have, and I'm in for another year (re-upped mid-July), but IMO, this kind of stuff is wasting your time and mine.* Of course you're working on something. We know you can't say anything about anything, but I think coming to the boards to actually say nothing is kinda silly.
* Granted, it's probably a net total of 9 seconds of wasted time, but seconds are a valid measure of time!
WOTC put up or shut up.
They DID shut up, and that's not good enough for some people.
;)
You can't on one hand complain that WOtC isn't communicating and then, when they do start communicating, get angry because they are not telling you what you want to hear.
Now I am not saying that people can't be disappointed that WotC is not getting the tools out as fast as people may want, because people have every right to do so. Heck, I can guarantee that if you asked any of the WotC employees, that they would be disappointed that the tools are not out yet.
If you want them to communicate, you have to accept the fact that they may not say what you want to hear. You do not get to say "Communicate more" and followed by "you are communicating wrong!!"
(Note, you is a general you, not directly related to anyone in particular.)
I really don't like to be Mr. Negative...but for for WOTC_Microbless to hop on and stir the pot before GenCON irritates the hell out of me. I spent the week eagerly waiting for DDi news, only to realize there isn't any.
I'm sure that was not Mike's intent; nevertheless, I really wish WotC would just give up on stringing us along on DDi and let someone else develop the tools. I regret continuing my subscription recently, I should have spent that money on something else.
You are correct. "Stirring the pot" as you put it was NOT my intent. My intent was to let you know that
- There is an official presence on the boards
- This official presence is listening to you, AND reporting back to his superiors
- "Something" is being worked on.
While I know it's annoying for me to keep saying "something", it's all I can say for the time being. I would rather come in here, and say that I've seen/tested/played with "something" then NOT come in here at all.
I was not at GenCon this year and therefore was not involved with the meetings where they discussed what was/wasn't going to be said. If I was then maybe I could have been given that "all clear" to say things like "Hey guys, look for these announcements, but not these".
There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
At this point Microbless, you might want to see about going back to the powers that be, and find out if there is ANYTHING specific you can say.
Thanks Mike & Paolo. I hope I didn't come across as rude. Despite my earlier gripe, I am grateful for your efforts to come to the community and share what information you can. It's hard to avoid speculation, and in truth my disappointment is a product of my speculation rather than your comments.
For now, the theme of the message seems to be, "Keep the Faith". I get it. And it's clear to me that you also know that we're impatient for substantive evidence of progress.
My apologies for the snarkiness. I'm looking forward to more news....soon.
If you want them to communicate, you have to accept the fact that they may not say what you want to hear. You do not get to say "Communicate more" and followed by "you are communicating wrong!!"
To a degree, I agree. The fact that Mike and Paulo are here and saying anything is a positive move, without a doubt and without caveat or qualifier.
However, I do wonder if people's frustration might be being fuelled by the fact that functionally the customer's options are pretty much identical before and after the comments that Mike and Paulo have kindly made. We have a situation where people, before the announcements, were being asked to wait and after we have a situation where our increased set of options includes.... more waiting. No reading preview articles, no looking at screenshots, no Design & Development of why the tools development has been knottier than they had originally expected (which might actually generate some sympathy). The options for the DDI user are exactly the same; wait and keep the faith.
I will wait, and I am trying damn hard to keep the faith... but I make no bones about the fact that after 2 years that is getting tougher.
Why is it that you guys are not allowed to say more?
Can you completely explain that to us? Wizards are great at telling us what books are coming out and what is in them. Other companies are great at telling us what computer products are coming out and what is in them. Why is it wizards can't tell us what computer products are coming out?
Forget time scales - I am a professional programmer and know that these things are never as easy to nail as you might hope. But I would just like it explained to us why you can't tell us "We are working on an Encounter Builder and it will (probably) contain these features." Such a comment would be amazing to hear and I just cant get my head around why you can't tell us something like that.
I'll end by saying thanks for taking the time to come here and talk to us at all!!
And for the excellent products you have already delievered which I use every week.Cheers!
Blakey
This is going to sound a lot harsher than I mean it, but...look, I really like the tools we have, and I'm in for another year (re-upped mid-July), but IMO, this kind of stuff is wasting your time and mine.* Of course you're working on something. We know you can't say anything about anything, but I think coming to the boards to actually say nothing is kinda silly.
Here's the thing. They were absolutely silent.
Then there was a huge outrage because people wanted to know if WotC was working on something. Anything.
Now, WotC comes on the boards and says, "Yeah. We are definitely working on something new and exciting, we just can't tell you what it is yet because we made that oath back when we promised a bunch of stuff and didn't deliver that we wouldn't do that again."
And, now, people are in an outrage because WotC told them what they wanted to hear.
Then, people like you come on and give WotC crap for trying to please some of their customers complaints about no information at all.
It just goes to show that there will always be people complaining no matter what you do.
The reason people are upset with WOTC coming here and saying that they are working on something is that is what they have been saying for a long time now. I know that they will show snd say more when its ready. That has been there policy. Staff members posting the same policy does not change anything, IMO. when staff has something useful to say is when they should post.
I'm not going to repeat my post. It's right above yours. I suggest you read it. But, here's the basics:
They did say something useful. They said, "Yes. For those of you concerned we aren't working on anything else, don't be. We are still moving forward. We are working on new stuff. We'll let you know when it's ready to be shown off. We can't wait. Please be patient and give us the chance to do it right."
I'm paraphrasing obviously.
Apolgies if this counts as a double post but Mike and Paolo are in this thread so I'll post the big question I have here:
Why is it that you guys are not allowed to say more?
Can you completely explain that to us? Wizards are great at telling us what books are coming out and what is in them. Other companies are great at telling us what computer products are coming out and what is in them. Why is it wizards can't tell us what computer products are coming out?
Forget time scales - I am a professional programmer and know that these things are never as easy to nail as you might hope. But I would just like it explained to us why you can't tell us "We are working on an Encounter Builder and it will (probably) contain these features." Such a comment would be amazing to hear and I just cant get my head around why you can't tell us something like that.
I'll end by saying thanks for taking the time to come here and talk to us at all!!
Cheers!
Blakey
I believe Mike said that in his earlier post:
"There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
I believe Mike said that in his earlier post:
"There are laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when. Again I'm sorry if what was announced didn't meet your expectations.
Exactly. Combine that with the fact that WotC has made it policy to not announce anything involving D&D Insider until it is ready and you realize the fact that they have representatives saying, "Yes, we're working on something and hope to reveal it soon," is significant.
This is going to sound a lot harsher than I mean it, but...look, I really like the tools we have, and I'm in for another year (re-upped mid-July), but IMO, this kind of stuff is wasting your time and mine.* Of course you're working on something. We know you can't say anything about anything, but I think coming to the boards to actually say nothing is kinda silly.
Here's the thing. They were absolutely silent.
Then there was a huge outrage because people wanted to know if WotC was working on something. Anything.
Now, WotC comes on the boards and says, "Yeah. We are definitely working on something new and exciting, we just can't tell you what it is yet because we made that oath back when we promised a bunch of stuff and didn't deliver that we wouldn't do that again."
And, now, people are in an outrage because WotC told them what they wanted to hear.
Then, people like you come on and give WotC crap for trying to please some of their customers complaints about no information at all.
It just goes to show that there will always be people complaining no matter what you do.
I was here for all of that (I think I was a day 1, or day 15, subscriber...something like that). I bitched at the beginning when they flubbed things, I think they handled it poorly, but they came around, and I'm really do like what I've got and I think the price is acceptable.
My poin is that coming to the boards to say "We've already told you we can't say anything, so we're not going to say anything" seems like a pointless exercise on their part (with the assumption - which you may not share, that saying "I've tested something" is materially different than simply not posting). I know they can't say anything. I'm certainly glad they're working on stuff because I expect them to work on stuff; as I said my post comes across harsh but what I meant was, at least for me, they only needed to answer the question once. If other people have issues remembering what the answer was...
Mudbunny is in a bad spot - as a VCL or whatever the acronym is he has to send requests up the chain, even if they're going to get an answer we've received a dozen times before.
Perhaps it's simply that I've been part of this discussion since the beginning and it's getting old. I am not, I guess, upset that they're coming to the forums to talk (better here than ENWorld, for instance), but that they have to keep coming here to remind people that they really can't say anything. For what it's worth, I apologize for the tone of the original post; but I find the whole situation frustrating.
My poin is that coming to the boards to say "We've already told you we can't say anything, so we're not going to say anything" seems like a pointless exercise on their part (with the assumption - which you may not share, that saying "I've tested something" is materially different than simply not posting).
That's the thing.
They haven't just said, "We've already told you we can't say anything."
They are saying, "We can't tell you anything. You know that. However, everyone should know that there IS something in development. We're not abandoning D&D Insider like some of you have worried about."
That is significant.
The fact that they are working on new stuff was something people wanted to know. It was something that WotC could relay to their fans. They did.
Now, people are giving them crap for saying this, but not releasing information they have said time and again they cannot release.
So, here's the breakdown:
1. WotC promises a lot. Fails to deliver.
2. Community has outrage.
3. WotC makes vow not to promise anything again and deliver tools when they are ready.
4. Community waits.
5. WotC promises CB. Delivers.
6. Community loves it.
7. WotC promises MB. Delivers.
8. Community loves it.
9. WotC says nothing about specifics of any new tools. They can't because of their new policy.
10. Community is fearful D&D Insider is ending at the CB and MB. They want to know whether WotC is working on something.
11. WotC tells them, yes we are working on something but we're not going to promise until we can deliver (just like number 5 and 7).
12. Community gets pissed because this information doesn't include information on what that something is.
13. Please see number 3 please.
I think where you and I are not communicating is that to me, and maybe I wasn't clear on this, the fact that they are "working on something" is simply what I expect of them. Their job is to work on something, and I was not in the camp who believed they were abandoning the DDI tools*. In other words, saying that their working on something, to me, is providing information I already knew. Hence, not something needed to be posted about.
But as I amended my original post, I concede that they need to say it anyway, for the people who do require the reassurance. So I do apologize; I'm just frustrated that they have to repeat that part over and over again.
I actually don't really care what's next. I expect it to be pretty cool (although, as an aside, if it's masterplan-ish, I probably won't use it much - those tools don't mesh well with how I plan adventures/encounters) but I'm kind of indifferent as to what it will be.
* I posted earlier in this thread about assuming nothing new is coming out, so that I can't be disappointed. That was somewhat tongue in cheek; I don't expect any particular product at any time because I'm bound to be wrong about some part of it.
As I said, I was here too.
I think where you and I are not communicating is that to me, and maybe I wasn't clear on this, the fact that they are "working on something" is simply what I expect of them. Their job is to work on something, and I was not in the camp who believed they were abandoning the DDI tools*. In other words, saying that their working on something, to me, is providing information I already knew. Hence, not something needed to be posted about.
But as I amended my original post, I concede that they need to say it anyway, for the people who do require the reassurance. So I do apologize; I'm just frustrated that they have to repeat that part over and over again.
I actually don't really care what's next. I expect it to be pretty cool (although, as an aside, if it's masterplan-ish, I probably won't use it much - those tools don't mesh well with how I plan adventures/encounters) but I'm kind of indifferent as to what it will be.
* I posted earlier in this thread about assuming nothing new is coming out, so that I can't be disappointed. That was somewhat tongue in cheek; I don't expect any particular product at any time because I'm bound to be wrong about some part of it.
Right on.
I think there are many confusing the communication from WotC as them coming here to say "the same thing" that they've already said.
When in actuality, I believe the purpose of their communication is to reassure the community that:
Yes, they are contuing development on new and exciting tools and not just planning to abandon anything new and only update existing tools (the Character Builder and Monster Builder).
People are viewing that as "no new information", when in fact, it is new information and it's something the community was clamoring for. Information on the continuing development of D&D Insider tools.
It's information they could provide without breaking their policy to not promise tools before they are ready to be delivered.
Carry on!!
...
...
...
I meant to direct it to this thread, and lock the other two.
Stupid copy/paste error.
I meant to direct it to this thread, and lock the other two.
Roger that.
(PS sorry for the double post but I just read the other thread was to be locked)
- Blizzard has *way* more experience in coding major software projects than WotC.
- Blizzard has *way* more experience managing software projects than WotC.
- Blizzard has *way* more money that it can throw at projects than WotC.
How can Blizzard tell us all about Cataclysm Expansion to WoW WAY in advance without actually saying exactly when it's coming out, but telling us (1) what they are working on and (2) approximately what will be in it?
(PS sorry for the double post but I just read the other thread was to be locked)
Maybe because Starcraft: Ghost didn't burn them as bad as the VTT and Visualizer burned WotC?
Again, the failure then wasn't in communication. It was in project management.
You offer a false choice. Personally? I would prefer:
"Update on project X: At the time of this statement it is in the Y stage of the production cycle, and Y2% complete within that stage."
"Update on project Y: We are X% complete with an initial specification. The next step will be an internal proof of concept"
"Update on project Z: Because of its dependency on X, no further progress can be made. When X is feature complete we will revisit Z"
"Update on project Q: It has been sent to QA. Once that hurdle is clear, a release date will be scheduled."
Notice how those are clear, unambiguous statements. There are no artifical release dates. No false promises. Other development houses provide just that type of information to customers of their subscription services. The precident does exist.
LOL.
Please. I'd love for you to provide a source for these "other development houses" that provide this information.
Even large companies that are producing huge projects (I've used Bungie and Halo and I'll do it again) don't give specifics about production until it is done. The best you'll get is vague teasers, "Harry is working on somethign really cool! You guys are gonna love it when you get your hands on this September 14th!"
This is not information most companies release, especially to consumers.
I think your expectations are a bit over-reaching and expecting WotC to provide this data is laughable at best and complaining about them not doing so is trolling at worst.
I can understand some of the others' complaints, "I just want to know what product they're working on, like is it the Encounter Builder or Map Builder?"
But, expecting specific internal development schedules...
Gimme a break. They don't even do that for print products which have release dates a year out.
(replying in this thread as per Mudbunny's request)
Well, they could always use this as a template for quarterly updates:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Just to provide a single quote:
User Interface
Status updated this report
Images of a prototype for the new user interface were made available in October: screenshots 1 screenshots 2 screenshots 3
The first three phases (of eight) of the client redesign was completed in Jan Prototypes are being developed in Silverlight, but the final platform is not yet decided. In Jan, the solitare and duel scenes were in the process of being outsourced. The complete redesign is scheduled to be completed in Q3 2010. A timeline for the construction and deployment of the new design will be clearer after duel scene construction is complete.
There has been a substantial re-skin of the client and the entirety of the Brown UI has been removed Responses have been mixed but initial reactions have been positive.
Also, there has been a community effort to improve the look of the current UI layout Community made and maintained skins can be found in the new Magic Online Customization Forum.
How can Blizzard tell us all about Cataclysm Expansion to WoW WAY in advance without actually saying exactly when it's coming out, but telling us (1) what they are working on and (2) approximately what will be in it?
(PS sorry for the double post but I just read the other thread was to be locked)
Because it is an announced product. You didnt hear anything about it up until the moment it was announced and not a moment sooner, probably because of the same laws. When WotC announces the next tool you can imagine that you will get the information you want.
OOPS! Ok...my reply in this thread then.
Like I said in the other thread:
Your example is a product schedule for an upgrade to an existing product.
This is not a schedule for an application in initial development phase.
OOPS! Ok...my reply in this thread then.
Like I said in the other thread:
Your example is a product schedule for an upgrade to an existing product.
This is not a schedule for an application in initial development phase.
Actually it is an update on the status of an entirely new client. The development effort is from the ground up on an entirely new technological platform. Effectively it is initial development.
OOPS! Ok...my reply in this thread then.
Like I said in the other thread:
Your example is a product schedule for an upgrade to an existing product.
This is not a schedule for an application in initial development phase.
Actually it is an update on the status of an entirely new client. The development effort is from the ground up on an entirely new technological platform. Effectively it is initial development.
But it is an existing product.
OOPS! Ok...my reply in this thread then.
Like I said in the other thread:
Your example is a product schedule for an upgrade to an existing product.
This is not a schedule for an application in initial development phase.
Actually it is an update on the status of an entirely new client. The development effort is from the ground up on an entirely new technological platform. Effectively it is initial development.
But it is an existing product.
So is DDI. ;)
So is DDI. ;)
Le Sigh.
Short term debt is reserved for shortages in cash-flow that is needed for monthly expenses. This debt is borrowed over a term of weeks, and sometimes months.
For long term debt, the capital investments themselves are sufficient for collateral. Short term debt collateral works a bit differently. This requires the company to have their accountant assemble past profit and loss statements in addition to proforma statements, future profits that can be counted on based on what is happening in the company that will bring in money in the near future. For most companies, payroll expenses typically makeup 40% to 70% of a company’s expenses, depending on their size. If a company does not have enough cash to meet this expense, they basically have two choices, let people go or borrow the money to cover payroll on a short term basis. Given the current state of our economy, most company profits have been down, thus impacting the bottom line, specifically cash on hand.
The DnD wing of WotC has essentially two products, physical and electronic subscriptions. Given the market niche that they have, it is fair to say that in a good economy the physical products, books and minis, will sell better. People have more disposable income after their expenses to invest in their hobby. In this economy, it is challenging for WotC to tell a bank how many products will sell after a release. On the other hand, DDI subscriptions are near guaranteed sources of income for the company each month. The bank really likes to see this on their financial statement. It tells them that we have X dollars guaranteed coming in each month that help to cover our monthly expenses. It is not dependent on sales of books. It is solid bet in the scheme of income.
Currently, DDI has nothing to offer to bring in new subscriptions, at least on a large scale. Their only choice is to try and keep the ones that they have. To accomplish this, they keep the current product refreshed as the new physical products are introduced and are now offering the promise of “something” down the road “soon”. This product maintenance is enough for most but not all. Those satisfied will remain quiet for the most part.
Some open up the incomplete suite of AT and feel deceived on an implied promise. Trust has not been reestablished from their perspective. They don’t know if the ‘something” means the further completion of the suite or a new electronic product all together. The ambiguity of “soon” further complicates things in our instant breakfast society because they don’t mean the same from a customer to company perspective. Between the economy and lack of product advancement, I believe that DDI is experiencing a slow leak from subscription income. WotC is smart to send their people, especially new names, to these forums to try and plug it. DDI is important to their cash flow. People always like to give a new person the benefit of the doubt and an amount of time to deliver. If DDI is not able to deliver in a timely basis, don’t be surprised to see them recycle this strategy with other new people. If and when DDI delivers on new products, people will quickly forgive for the most part. In the meantime, people are dissatisfied with an incomplete product, and a few will express it.
I apologize for this wall of text but I thought maybe this perspective might help some understand where DDI rests in the big scheme of things. People will have to decide for themselves whether the current product has value and merits their dollars. DDI could go a long way to rebuild the trust that has been lost by giving more specific details on what people can expect from their investment into their hobby.
So is DDI. ;)
Le Sigh.
LOL. Exactly.
Despite the fact that this is an upgrade from the old client, and words like "re-skin" and "remove" being used in the "ground up" development, the main point is, this is an existing product that has been released to the public.
If the D&D Insider team was building a new UI and adding features to the Monster Builder for example, I'm sure they would notify us of the upgrade as they typically do. We knew about the implementation of the new display for monsters well before it was released.
However, a brand new tool that hasn't been released before is something they aren't going to announce or show us until it is ready to be shown.
So, complain and whine all you want.
Some of us however can be patient and would prefer WotC announce the tool when they are good and ready to.
How can Blizzard tell us all about Cataclysm Expansion to WoW WAY in advance without actually saying exactly when it's coming out, but telling us (1) what they are working on and (2) approximately what will be in it?
(PS sorry for the double post but I just read the other thread was to be locked)
Because it is an announced product. You didnt hear anything about it up until the moment it was announced and not a moment sooner, probably because of the same laws. When WotC announces the next tool you can imagine that you will get the information you want.
I am personally happy with the current suite of DDI tools and don't really care whether or not they release more (though it would be nice), but I keep seeing people refer to laws supposedly restricting what WotC can say about upcoming projects and would just like to say that is a load of hooey. The reason WotC is not saying anything about potential future releases is simply a company policy, claiming that they cannot say anything about upcoming releases due to unnamed "public company laws" is disingenuous at best.
How can Blizzard tell us all about Cataclysm Expansion to WoW WAY in advance without actually saying exactly when it's coming out, but telling us (1) what they are working on and (2) approximately what will be in it?
Because it is an announced product. You didnt hear anything about it up until the moment it was announced and not a moment sooner, probably because of the same laws. When WotC announces the next tool you can imagine that you will get the information you want.
Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. Cataclysm isn't released but they tell us what is coming in the future. We won't hear about the next Adventure Tool till the day it is available for download - assuming it works the same way as MB did. Why can't they tell us what they are working on? I see absolutely no reason at all.
I tend to think this is Wizards' slightly over the top reaction to getting burnt before - and am sad about that as I feel most of us here appreciate the DDi tools, understand that they are non-trivial projects and look forward to getting the next installment. I'd just like to know what it is I'm looking forward to!
I apologize for this wall of text but I thought maybe this perspective might help some understand where DDI rests in the big scheme of things. People will have to decide for themselves whether the current product has value and merits their dollars. DDI could go a long way to rebuild the trust that has been lost by giving more specific details on what people can expect from their investment into their hobby.
It's an insightful post. But, here's my main beef:
At the moment, I don't consider D&D Insider an "incomplete" suite.
The price paid for the Character Builder, Monster Builder, Compendium and Dungeon and Dragon magazine is well worth it.
If they do release a new tool, I fully expect an increase in price.
The example earlier was World of Warcraft. Is the original game not a "complete" game because you don't have the expansions? Surely it is complete.
Is Photoshop not a complete program because you don't have Illustrator? ...
I look at D&D Insider like Adobe's creative suite. Photoshop and InDesign has been released. I'm still waiting on Acrobat and Illustrator to release. That doesn't mean my Photoshop and InDesign aren't complete...
I am personally happy with the current suite of DDI tools and don't really care whether or not they release more (though it would be nice), but I keep seeing people refer to laws supposedly restricting what WotC can say about upcoming projects and would just like to say that is a load of hooey. The reason WotC is not saying anything about potential future releases is simply a company policy, claiming that they cannot say anything about upcoming releases due to unnamed "public company laws" is disingenuous at best.
I know that for publicly traded companies (like Hasbro, of which WotC is a part of) there are regulations that enforce how and when information that may have an impact on trading of shares is to be released to investors and to the public.
It's an insightful post. But, here's my main beef:
At the moment, I don't consider D&D Insider an "incomplete" suite.
I was specifically referring to AT. I am guessing that our definitions of suite are not the same. By the unresponsive buttons in AT, I feel it is incomplete.The example earlier was World of Warcraft. Is the original game not a "complete" game because you don't have the expansions? Surely it is complete.
There is a difference between a one time cost for the expansion and a recurring subscription cost for the service and updating of the product. Does Bliz charge more for the monthly subscrition when an expansion is released or a major patch is pushed? Most know the answer to that.Is Photoshop not a complete program because you don't have Illustrator? ...
I look at D&D Insider like Adobe's creative suite. Photoshop and InDesign has been released. I'm still waiting on Acrobat and Illustrator to release. That doesn't mean my Photoshop and InDesign aren't complete...
These are not marketed the same to the customer. You can tell by my profile that I have recently signed up. I am an old school ADnD gamer that was looking to rekindle some childhood experiences with 4E. The PH that I purchased in June has the advertisement in the back with many promises that DDI doesn't currently deliver. It is deceiving. I signed up for a year knowing what I was really getting but with the promise of more to come. If nothing is added during the year of my subscription, I will be disappointed.
I am personally happy with the current suite of DDI tools and don't really care whether or not they release more (though it would be nice), but I keep seeing people refer to laws supposedly restricting what WotC can say about upcoming projects and would just like to say that is a load of hooey. The reason WotC is not saying anything about potential future releases is simply a company policy, claiming that they cannot say anything about upcoming releases due to unnamed "public company laws" is disingenuous at best.
I know that for publicly traded companies (like Hasbro, of which WotC is a part of) there are regulations that enforce how and when information that may have an impact on trading of shares is to be released to investors and to the public.
Unless the information is purposefully deceptive and/or a Habro/WotC executive is planning to sell some stock on the basis of that information, it would be an extreme exagerration to claim that those laws are hampering WotC's ability to release information about upcoming DDI projects.
I apologize for this wall of text but I thought maybe this perspective might help some understand where DDI rests in the big scheme of things. People will have to decide for themselves whether the current product has value and merits their dollars. DDI could go a long way to rebuild the trust that has been lost by giving more specific details on what people can expect from their investment into their hobby.
It's an insightful post. But, here's my main beef:
At the moment, I don't consider D&D Insider an "incomplete" suite.
The price paid for the Character Builder, Monster Builder, Compendium and Dungeon and Dragon magazine is well worth it.
If they do release a new tool, I fully expect an increase in price.
The example earlier was World of Warcraft. Is the original game not a "complete" game because you don't have the expansions? Surely it is complete.
Is Photoshop not a complete program because you don't have Illustrator? ...
I look at D&D Insider like Adobe's creative suite. Photoshop and InDesign has been released. I'm still waiting on Acrobat and Illustrator to release. That doesn't mean my Photoshop and InDesign aren't complete...
The thing is, this is all very subjective. A person who disagrees with you on DDI completenes, or value, is not wrong.
To me, this is the key thing from the post you quoted: "DDI could go a long way to rebuild the trust that has been lost by giving more specific details on what people can expect from their investment into their hobby."
You keep saying that it is not WotC's policy. That's true. But policies can be changed. The only way to do that is to pressure the policy-maker to change the policy.
Congratulations! You just described the typical software development cycle too.
However, liike I said in the other thread, a typo in chapter 1 doesn't cause the pages in chapter 2 to be blank. In software, a major change can cause you to have to completely re code sections. If that happens, you are basically back at square one with those parts.
A major change in printed materials can be made as you continue to move the project along. For example, take the green colors the monster stat blocks are printed in. If they wanted to change those colors, one simple change to the color swatches can do that.
Same if you change the font, and the text reflows. You can adjust the text as you keep the project moving forward.
Books are far easier to plan then software, because the applications these days are far more flexiable.
But if your software has to be scrapped, you have to adjust the schedule to take a step back.
I was specifically referring to AT. I am guessing that our definitions of suite are not the same. By the unresponsive buttons in AT, I feel it is incomplete
A suite is a collection of individual tools (i.e. Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Acrobat, etc...).
Adventure Tools (notice the 's', that means plural) is also intended to be a suite of tools (i.e. Monster Builder, Encounter Builder, etc...).
There are no "unresponsive" buttons. There is one button. The others are placeholders where buttons may or may not be placed.
I can see how that may be misleading though.
There is a difference between a one time cost for the expansion and a recurring subscription cost for the service and updating of the product. Does Bliz charge more for the monthly subscrition when an expansion is released or a major patch is pushed? Most know the answer to that.
This is semantics. Blizzard does charge a retail price for expansions. WotC has chosen a completely subscription based model that is all-inclusive, but there's no entry fee, like buying a WoW expansion.
These are not marketed the same to the customer. You can tell by my profile that I have recently signed up. I am an old school ADnD gamer that was looking to rekindle some childhood experiences with 4E. The PH that I purchased in June has the advertisement in the back with many promises taht DDI doesn't currently deliver. It is deceiving. I signed up for a year knowing what I was really getting but with the promise of more to come. If nothing is added during the year of my subscription, I will be disappointed.
This is old, old, old news friend. Unless you're completely new to the scene, like yesterday, the whole "ad in the back of the PHB" argument is moot. There are clear explanations of what comes with D&D Insider when you sign up. It's been out for several years now.
The subscription pricing is for tools currently available.
I fully expect a price increase if new tools come out (the same way I'd expect to pay more for Photoshop and Illustrator instead of just Photoshop).
Since the other two threads were locked, so that all comments could be focused in one thread. The conversation was how can they announce a book so far in advance, and I explained how, that you work backwards from the release date to build your schedule.Congratulations! You just described the typical software development cycle too.
However, liike I said in the other thread, a typo in chapter 1 doesn't cause the pages in chapter 2 to be blank. In software, a major change can cause you to have to completely re code sections. If that happens, you are basically back at square one with those parts.
A major change in printed materials can be made as you continue to move the project along. For example, take the green colors the monster stat blocks are printed in. If they wanted to change those colors, one simple change to the color swatches can do that.
Same if you change the font, and the text reflows. You can adjust the text as you keep the project moving forward.
Books are far easier to plan then software, because the applications these days are far more flexiable.
But if your software has to be scrapped, you have to adjust the schedule to take a step back.
If your software has to be scrapped, then you have already failed in the earlier phases of the project.
Wouldn't this be similar to realizing that you need to completely rewrite chapters 2-6 because something vital in chapter 10 conflicts with it? To me that would be a major change, not font, color, or layout.
You keep saying that it is not WotC's policy. That's true. But policies can be changed. The only way to do that is to pressure the policy-maker to change the policy.
But what you are forgetting is that WoTC has to take into account EVERYONES view on what the policy should be. And then take into consideration peoples reaction to that policy.
For example. KM will not stop bringing up the fact that WoTC made such a big deal about DDI before launch, put it in books on the last page, hyped it, video's about the game table, and all that.
His biggest complaint a while ago was HOW MUCH they talked up these products. KM wasn't the only poster, but for the most part, he's the last still bearing that grudge.
The reason WoTC adopted a new policy with the DDI tools was because of the reaction of people over how much they hyped it.
So where you want one policy, someone else wants another which isn't the same as yours.
And on top of that WoTC has to make sure that they don't upset people like they did 2 years ago.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
Sounds like marriage.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
I agree with everything you said, but some people were hurt financially by some of the tools not releasing. Some people bought the 4E books initially because they were fully expecting the VTT and whatnot so they could rekindle old groups online.
So, I can understand their being upset... Two years ago.
Nowadays, that argument is moot.
Since the other two threads were locked, so that all comments could be focused in one thread. The conversation was how can they announce a book so far in advance, and I explained how, that you work backwards from the release date to build your schedule.Congratulations! You just described the typical software development cycle too.
However, liike I said in the other thread, a typo in chapter 1 doesn't cause the pages in chapter 2 to be blank. In software, a major change can cause you to have to completely re code sections. If that happens, you are basically back at square one with those parts.
A major change in printed materials can be made as you continue to move the project along. For example, take the green colors the monster stat blocks are printed in. If they wanted to change those colors, one simple change to the color swatches can do that.
Same if you change the font, and the text reflows. You can adjust the text as you keep the project moving forward.
Books are far easier to plan then software, because the applications these days are far more flexiable.
But if your software has to be scrapped, you have to adjust the schedule to take a step back.
If your software has to be scrapped, then you have already failed in the earlier phases of the project.
Wouldn't this be similar to realizing that you need to completely rewrite chapters 2-6 because something vital in chapter 10 conflicts with it? To me that would be a major change, not font, color, or layout.
I said parts of the code, not the whole software. Completely different thing you are suggesting over what I'm saying.
And as far as your example. Well, it's much easier for a book then for software. And I've seen it happen. The company we used as the content developer hired a writer which plagerized 10 chapters for a science textbook and 7 of the labs. That's about half the book.
We still got the book out on time. The developer had to spend their own money to rewrite the chapters and labs, by hiring extra writers for a quicker turn around.
The solution was to throw money at the problem. How successful was that solution, I dont know I didn't work directly on that project, I just know we didn't have to pay for the original work or the rewrites, and still made the deadline.
The cost difference is a huge factor. $500,000 is small compared to the millions it takes to develope software. More so when it has to come out of your own pocket.
Anyway, I've discussed this on my off-site blog, and I'll briefly reiterate here. I'm a programmer myself. I'm a one-man department working for a large company. I am always expected to give a timeline and/or meet a specific date for delivery of the code I write. In 7 years, I've missed exactly 2 deadlines, and I took my lumps for it, and legitimately so. That's my responsibility. I must meet my deadlines. I also must define those deadlines or adhere to ones assigned to me, even if I feel the term given to me is outrageous (and it sometimes truly is.) I am expected to work long hours, sacrifice lunch hours, and do whatever I need to do to bring my work to completion on time.
As I said on my blog, Wizards needs to publicly state what they're working on, when it will be delivered, and then meet those expectations.
There are people who are happy with what they're getting and fine with not getting additional information. There are people who aren't. It's fine to be happy with how things are. That's your prerogative. However, don't begrudge others for being completely unsatisfied.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't hold Wizards to any standards I am not held to myself. I'm nervously anticipating what's coming. I'm rooting for WotC to get this right, but I won't hide my irritation at the delay coupled with silence. I paid a full year of DDi and got a Character Builder I don't use, a Monster Builder I generally don't use (since I've been a Masterplan fan,) and magazine articles that go largely unread by me. All on the hope that my subscription was subsidizing development of more tools (specifically a Masterplan replacement.)
To those saying that Wizards' silence is their policy, that wasn't their policy when 4E was announced or even until after it was released. It became policy. Policies can, and are, subject to change.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
I agree with everything you said, but some people were hurt financially by some of the tools not releasing. Some people bought the 4E books initially because they were fully expecting the VTT and whatnot so they could rekindle old groups online.
So, I can understand their being upset... Two years ago.
Nowadays, that argument is moot.
And I can understand WotC being very gunshy two years ago in the wake of that fiasco.
Nowadays, telling subscribers about concrete new features to look forward to would be nice.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
I agree with everything you said, but some people were hurt financially by some of the tools not releasing. Some people bought the 4E books initially because they were fully expecting the VTT and whatnot so they could rekindle old groups online.
So, I can understand their being upset... Two years ago.
Nowadays, that argument is moot.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with people being hurt financially by buying a book. If you picked up a book, saw the add in the back of the book, went home and saw that the tools were not released, and were coming soon, those people can return the books.
If they held onto the books thinking that the tools would be released soon, they were not financially hurt either. After all, if buying a $100 in books is going to hurt you financially, how were they going to pay for a monthly on line subscription? Not to mention owning a computer and Internet connection.
At best, if someone bought the books, thinking there would be digital tools and a way to play on-line, only to find out there wasn't, and kept the books for a game they couldn't play with people face to face, at best they simply wasted their money, but they were not financially hurt.
And they have a right to be upset over wasting money, yes. But to be blunt, people waste their money in the most amazing ways.
It's enterainment, and the choice to spend your money on intertainment over bills, rent, food or anything else you need to survive isn't any company's responsiblity, it's the persons.
More so because before the books were even released it was said that the tools would not be ready.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
I agree with everything you said, but some people were hurt financially by some of the tools not releasing. Some people bought the 4E books initially because they were fully expecting the VTT and whatnot so they could rekindle old groups online.
So, I can understand their being upset... Two years ago.
Nowadays, that argument is moot.
And I can understand WotC being very gunshy two years ago in the wake of that fiasco.
Nowadays, telling subscribers about concrete new features to look forward to would be nice.
And, they will.
When they are ready to. Just like any development company does.
Better to underpromise and overdeliver imo than the alternative.
Not only that, some people seem bent on making sure that WoTC never ever ever forgets they screwed up (Even though the only person hurt by it was WoTC). Nothing like waking up every morning to be reminded of that mistake you made years ago, inspite of everything else you've done since.
I agree with everything you said, but some people were hurt financially by some of the tools not releasing. Some people bought the 4E books initially because they were fully expecting the VTT and whatnot so they could rekindle old groups online.
So, I can understand their being upset... Two years ago.
Nowadays, that argument is moot.
And I can understand WotC being very gunshy two years ago in the wake of that fiasco.
Nowadays, telling subscribers about concrete new features to look forward to would be nice.
Well, looking at this thread and others in this forum, it seems that there are enough vocal minority still going on about what happened two years ago to keep them being Gunshy.
How can we expect them to stop being Gunshy if some people keeping firing the same gun at them?
Since the other two threads were locked, so that all comments could be focused in one thread. The conversation was how can they announce a book so far in advance, and I explained how, that you work backwards from the release date to build your schedule.Congratulations! You just described the typical software development cycle too.
However, liike I said in the other thread, a typo in chapter 1 doesn't cause the pages in chapter 2 to be blank. In software, a major change can cause you to have to completely re code sections. If that happens, you are basically back at square one with those parts.
A major change in printed materials can be made as you continue to move the project along. For example, take the green colors the monster stat blocks are printed in. If they wanted to change those colors, one simple change to the color swatches can do that.
Same if you change the font, and the text reflows. You can adjust the text as you keep the project moving forward.
Books are far easier to plan then software, because the applications these days are far more flexiable.
But if your software has to be scrapped, you have to adjust the schedule to take a step back.
If your software has to be scrapped, then you have already failed in the earlier phases of the project.
Wouldn't this be similar to realizing that you need to completely rewrite chapters 2-6 because something vital in chapter 10 conflicts with it? To me that would be a major change, not font, color, or layout.
I said parts of the code, not the whole software. Completely different thing you are suggesting over what I'm saying.
And as far as your example. Well, it's much easier for a book then for software. And I've seen it happen. The company we used as the content developer hired a writer which plagerized 10 chapters for a science textbook and 7 of the labs. That's about half the book.
We still got the book out on time. The developer had to spend their own money to rewrite the chapters and labs, by hiring extra writers for a quicker turn around.
The solution was to throw money at the problem. How successful was that solution, I dont know I didn't work directly on that project, I just know we didn't have to pay for the original work or the rewrites, and still made the deadline.
The cost difference is a huge factor. $500,000 is small compared to the millions it takes to develope software. More so when it has to come out of your own pocket.
The same can be said of software projects as well. Sometimes the software simply has to be done on time, and the only solution is to add more developers. I could spend the rest of the month telling war stories of software development efforts that took extraordinary efforts to meet deadlines. Both from personal experience, and from classic case studies.
Proper project management can go a long way. Setting and meeting deadlines in software development is the norm, not the exception.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with people being hurt financially by buying a book.
I'd say any time I've wasted my money because of an advertisement that doesn't come true is being financially hurt. But, we're arguing over semantics. You may not think so.
And, they will.
When they are ready to. Just like any development company does.
Better to underpromise and overdeliver imo than the alternative.
As with most things, there is a good middle ground that provides balance between the extremes.
That is what I advocate. A reasonable middle ground.
I am of the opinion that WotC has not found that point yet.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with people being hurt financially by buying a book.
I'd say any time I've wasted my money because of an advertisement that doesn't come true is being financially hurt. But, we're arguing over semantics. You may not think so.
How were you hurt? Did you get eviceted because you couldn't pay the rent? Couldn't afford medicine? Lost your job?
You may not like wasting money, but saying you were financially hurt comes across as an exaggeration of the situtation. And when a person comes across as exaggerating, it weakens their argument.
It's like saying gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. That's an exaggeration that makes the person who says it look and sound very stupid.
And, they will.
When they are ready to. Just like any development company does.
Better to underpromise and overdeliver imo than the alternative.
As with most things, there is a good middle ground that provides balance between the extremes.
That is what I advocate. A reasonable middle ground.
I am of the opinion that WotC has not found that point yet.
Like I said, I can understand people wanting to know what the next tool will be...
However, earlier you said you wanted specific internal development reports given to the consumers. So, that's a change of heart.
In my opinion, based on prior experience, I think WotC is well justified in waiting until the tool is ready to be released before giving out previews.
And, I don't think it hurts anyone to wait for that information.
Your options are: subscribe and take advantage of the current excellent tools and magazines OR don't, wait until the next tool is released and decide then whether to re-subscribe.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with people being hurt financially by buying a book.
I'd say any time I've wasted my money because of an advertisement that doesn't come true is being financially hurt. But, we're arguing over semantics. You may not think so.
How were you hurt? Did you get eviceted because you couldn't pay the rent? Couldn't afford medicine? Lost your job?
You may not like wasting money, but saying you were financially hurt comes across as an exaggeration of the situtation. And when a person comes across as exaggerating, it weakens their argument.
It's like saying gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. That's an exaggeration that makes the person who says it look and sound very stupid.
It certainly is a matter of perpsective. I think that it can be summed up looking at is as two groups. Some people see the money that they make each week as the top number, gross, and others see it as the bottom number, net.
It's like saying gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. That's an exaggeration that makes the person who says it look and sound very stupid.
What??
Not at all. Your arguments are the exaggeration.
First of all, I'm not saying I was hurt. I'm a happy subscriber and my group meets in person.
You're taking hyberbole and trying to apply that to my argument. When did anyone compare gay marriage to marrying animals? Wtf?? The fact that you're even comparing the two arguments is sad.
We're talking about a company advertising products that don't exist - not civil liberties.
Let's just end this little side-trek right now because you're taking it down a disturbing path.
...
Wtf?
Well, looking at this thread and others in this forum, it seems that there are enough vocal minority still going on about what happened two years ago to keep them being Gunshy.
How can we expect them to stop being Gunshy if some people keeping firing the same gun at them?
Speaking of that, did you know that the current demo of the Character Builder still references the Character Visualizer?
I found that out this weekend. (and posted on the Character Builder forum)
It would be nice if they stopped giving those people more ammo.
Initially when DDI was announced too much information was given out, the product was not fully ready, and as has been said many times before WotC got burnt because they did not deliver on what they said was coming. They did let us know this and apologised and went for a different approach, unfortunaltey they have went too far to the other side with this approach they have went from giving out all this info on what they were working on to we are working on something.
WotC needs to find a middle ground here.
Like I said, I can understand people wanting to know what the next tool will be...
However, earlier you said you wanted specific internal development reports given to the consumers. So, that's a change of heart.
In my opinion, based on prior experience, I think WotC is well justified in waiting until the tool is ready to be released before giving out previews.
And, I don't think it hurts anyone to wait for that information.
Your options are: subscribe and take advantage of the current excellent tools and magazines OR don't, wait until the next tool is released and decide then whether to re-subscribe.
Earlier I gave examples of specific statements. Statements consistent with what they provide quarterly with their other software effort, Magic Online.
There will always be vocal groups raging for and against whatever is or isn't said. That can't be avoided.
I am well aware of my options. I do have those two options. In addition I also have the option to express my opinion of WotC's existing tools, how I perceive their value, and the stated future vision. I can use my voice to try to influence decision-making going forward.
In this thread, I'm expressing my opinion that WotC's future vision is not being well communicated. OK...it isn't being communicated at all. Nor are they really communicating their progress toward effecting that vision.
It's like saying gay marriage will lead to people wanting to marry animals. That's an exaggeration that makes the person who says it look and sound very stupid.
What??
Not at all. Your arguments are the exaggeration.
First of all, I'm not saying I was hurt. I'm a happy subscriber and my group meets in person.
You're taking hyberbole and trying to apply that to my argument. When did anyone compare gay marriage to marrying animals? Wtf?? The fact that you're even comparing the two arguments is sad.
We're talking about a company advertising products that don't exist - not civil liberties.
Let's just end this little side-trek right now because you're taking it down a disturbing path.
...
Wtf?
I think you need to take a step back and really read.
You are saying people were hurt finanically by buying the books, thinking that there were digital tools they could use.
I disagree that they were financially hurt. At best, they wasted their money if they bought books, found out there wasn't any tools like advertised, and decided to keep the books till there were, only to find out two years later the tools they wanted still weren't out.
You came back and said you think wasting money is the same as being finanically hurt.
But saying financially hurt is an exaggeration. And when a person has to exaggerate to try and get their point across, they are hurting their point more then helping, because when you exaggerate, it can make the person look stupid.
And as an example of looking stupid when a person exaggerates, I used the actual things people have said about legalizing gay marriage leading to people wanting to marry animals. It's a completely stupid exaggeration used to suppport those peoples anti-gay marriage stance.
A person saying they were finanically hurt because they bought some game books they ended up not being able to actually use is an exaggeration. They wasted their money. They were not hurt.
A person saying they were finanically hurt because they bought some game books they ended up not being able to actually use is an exaggeration. They wasted their money. They were not hurt.
Like I said, I'm not willing to compare arguments about civil liberties with arguments about advertising.
However, I will respond to this statement.
Your definition of "hurt" is obviously different than mine. Any time my money is wasted (because I have a limited supply) I am hurt financially. My finances are hurt. My money has been wasted. It is gone. My funds have been damaged (i.e. hurt).
Applying your definition of "hurt" (i.e. not being able to buy food) is an exaggeration. When someone says, "Hasbro was hurt this quarter by the recession", they don't mean Hasbro and all its employees are living on the street...
So, quit with the hyberboles. And, the lousy attempts to say I'm "stupid" by comparing my argument to arguments against gay marriage. That's just ****ed up and seems to be bordering on breaking the CoC.
Really. End discussion.
There will always be vocal groups raging for and against whatever is or isn't said. That can't be avoided.
Agreed.
I am well aware of my options. I do have those two options. In addition I also have the option to express my opinion of WotC's existing tools, how I perceive their value, and the stated future vision. I can use my voice to try to influence decision-making going forward.
That option is completely exclusive to the other two options. *shrug*
I mean, I'm not arguing against you voicing your concern. However, I do find it kind of hilarious that people are willing to continue paying for D&D Insider and complain about that and correlate it to new tools.
This has been my position from the get-go. A new tool is a separate topic to current subscription (unless say, WotC increased the rate without adding a new tool - which they haven't).
I never said do not voice your opinion. In fact, I said earlier, "whine and complain" all you want.
However, there are those of us who also don't mind WotC getting things right and making sure they have a tool to release before they start going and previewing its release... We'd like to not be drowned out by some vocal few. Plain and simple.
In this thread, I'm expressing my opinion that WotC's future vision is not being well communicated. OK...it isn't being communicated at all. Nor are they really communicating their progress toward effecting that vision.
And, I'm expressing my opinion that WotC is well justified in not communicating their future vision. They are justified in communicating tools that are going to be released. Not "visions" of the "future". And, this is why they have adopted that policy. Instead of yapping about "plans" and "hopes" and "ideas", they're keeping their mouth shut and opening when they have something substantial to talk about...
Like they have done with the Character Builder and Monster Builder.
While we've burned WotC on the combo of over-promising and under-delivering, we've also praised success. Following the comments from Mike and Paolo about laws governing the release of information, I wonder if this is more about business strategy than it is about being gun-shy.
I have to believe that an experienced software developer (or team, if there is one), can confidently set a reasonable delivery date. So Paolo, for example, could probably come up with conservative estimate with confidence and announce it without concerns about meeting the deadline. I dare say most of the professionals on the boards, be they engineers, developers, writers or whatever do that everyday for managers and clients.
So...I'm inclined to think that this isn't about getting "burned" by criticism.
Now I want to know: What are the business or regulatory concerns that would preclude an announcement?
I'm triggering on these phrases:
"Then there are competitive issues to take into account, business positioning, release schedule"
"laws and regulations what we have to adhere to as a publicly traded company when it comes to what information can be said, and when"
Who is the competition? Paizo? not for DDi...
I mean, I'm not arguing against you voicing your concern. However, I do find it kind of hilarious that people are willing to continue paying for D&D Insider and complain about that and correlate it to new tools.
In the interest of full disclosure. I am not, nor have I ever been a subscriber to DDI. I did buy the 4e core books in anticipation of what the DDI vision originally was. When I saw that they were not going to meet that vision, I did not subscribe.
Today, DDI does not meet my current needs. I am however still keenly interested in the DDI program. If at some point it does meet my needs, at a price I find equitable, then I will subscribe. So, I am also very interested in what is coming much more than what is.
I mean, I'm not arguing against you voicing your concern. However, I do find it kind of hilarious that people are willing to continue paying for D&D Insider and complain about that and correlate it to new tools.
In the interest of full disclosure. I am not, nor have I ever been a subscriber to DDI. I did buy the 4e core books in anticipation of what the DDI vision originally was. When I saw that they were not going to meet that vision, I did not subscribe.
Today, DDI does not meet my current needs. I am however still keenly interested in the DDI program. If at some point it does meet my needs, at a price I find equitable, then I will subscribe. So, I am also very interested in what is coming much more than what is.
Just so you know, I wasn't talking specifically about you - I was mentioning other threads I've seen in response.
However, I can totally see how you'd be more interested in the new tools coming out if you aren't interested in the current tools and that's definitely WotC's in to get non-subscribers to subscribe.
What would make you subscribe? I'm interested. A VTT I guess?
A person saying they were finanically hurt because they bought some game books they ended up not being able to actually use is an exaggeration. They wasted their money. They were not hurt.
Like I said, I'm not willing to compare arguments about civil liberties with arguments about advertising.
However, I will respond to this statement.
Your definition of "hurt" is obviously different than mine. Any time my money is wasted (because I have a limited supply) I am hurt financially. My finances are hurt. My money has been wasted. It is gone. My funds have been damaged (i.e. hurt).
Applying your definition of "hurt" (i.e. not being able to buy food) is an exaggeration. When someone says, "Hasbro was hurt this quarter by the recession", they don't mean Hasbro and all its employees are living on the street...
So, quit with the hyberboles. And, the lousy attempts to say I'm "stupid" by comparing my argument to arguments against gay marriage. That's just ****ed up and seems to be bordering on breaking the CoC.
Really. End discussion.
If you want to really end a discussion, you simply don't reply. So what you really want is to have the last word, because you think it will make you right.
Adventure Tools needs a mapper - it needs an encounter builder (sorry Bonus Tools but you're not cutting it for my campaign) - it needs a campaign planner. These things are the "Essentials" that I would like to see.
Wizards knows that it has its core audience that has already bought their products. So, instead of trying to make that experience better for us, they are trying to expand their offering to people who don't play D&D. That's great, but don't spend so much effort on bringing in new people that you alienate those who have been supporting your business up to this point.
D&D board games? Awesome! D&D Collector mini's? Sweet! No updates to the suite of software you pumped as being an integral part of your next generation rules set? Lame!
Come on guys, restore my faith! Make Adventure Tools something that will actually allow us to build ADVENTURES, and not just customize monsters.
I too, as it seems, many of us are, a software developer.
I have to come up with dates and deadlines and stick to them, and if I don't I need to come up with logical arguments as to why something wasn't finished.
I too have to work long days and nights, there have been times in my career that I have had to work 7 days a week, sometimes three days straight to make things work because the timelines set were unrealistic and out of my control.
That being said, I'm very good at estimating my own time when the feature set is clearly laid out for me.
I'm not that exact when the features keep changing, or I constantly have to go back to old software and update them for a change in specs.
I think one of the things that is difficult here for the devs is the aggressive book publishing schedule.
It seems like whenever a power source is introduced, it changes the mechanics of the game and therefore the software.
This is a good argument to keep the software close to their chests until release, because the R&D folks can come up with new and fun ways to play the game whenever they want, because they just need to make up the mechanics, play test, and write them down.
I can imagine the looks on the devs faces when they came to them with all the changes in the Essentials line.
I'm just saying that it's difficult to keep on a steady development timeline when the target keeps changing.
Just so you know, I wasn't talking specifically about you - I was mentioning other threads I've seen in response.
However, I can totally see how you'd be more interested in the new tools coming out if you aren't interested in the current tools and that's definitely WotC's in to get non-subscribers to subscribe.
What would make you subscribe? I'm interested. A VTT I guess?
In a way that is a tough question to answer. The best answer is "I'll know it when I see it."
My current situation (full time job, mortgage, family, staggered work schedules) makes finding a regular live game difficult at best, impossible is more likely. I do play with my kids a little now that they are old enough. (Camp Wannakillabadguy is turning into a fun campaign :D )
VTT is a bit of a loaded question because of its history. How about a first-party online game solution?
Sure there are other tools out there right now. Many of them have very good features. The biggest drawback is that locating a group in the proper time slot is a huge challenge because of the decentralized nature of web sites. Given the choice, I would choose to support WotC over a third party for VTT and matchmaking tools.
So yes, that would definately do it. But between here and there, where is the exact "buy" line? I honestly can't say.
I'm not going to get into legalities here. I don't know what laws actually exist in terms of the DDi product suite, but honestly, if you were to ask my opinion, I'd call BS on a supposed inability to discuss anything because of shareholder concerns.
Disclosure regulations may only be one part of it. The IP that is Dungeons and Dragons is licensed out to a bunch of different companies. It may be possible that some part of the DDI tools that are being worked on require that those licenses be terminated/renegotiated/completed before anything can be said.
While it is all nice and good for those who don't work at WotC to proclaim that there are no legal reasons why something cannot be said, it is obvious that the legal teams of WotC/Hasbro feel otherwise.
I'm not going to get into legalities here. I don't know what laws actually exist in terms of the DDi product suite, but honestly, if you were to ask my opinion, I'd call BS on a supposed inability to discuss anything because of shareholder concerns.
Disclosure regulations may only be one part of it. The IP that is Dungeons and Dragons is licensed out to a bunch of different companies. It may be possible that some part of the DDI tools that are being worked on require that those licenses be terminated/renegotiated/completed before anything can be said.
While it is all nice and good for those who don't work at WotC to proclaim that there are no legal reasons why something cannot be said, it is obvious that the legal teams of WotC/Hasbro feel otherwise.
I didn't claim that there were no legal reasons not to say something, simply that falling back on legal reasons for not saying anything is an obvious exagerration of reality.
Following the comments from Mike and Paolo about laws governing the release of information, I wonder if this is more about business strategy than it is about being gun-shy.
Wow wow wow, just to nip this in the bud, I didn't say anything about laws and stuff
Of course we (specifically me, as it's the case here) can make reasonably good estimates of effort and capacity. And we did.
We also choose to annouce whatever we're working on when we are ready to annouce it (kinda tautological, but true. A recursive tautological truism, if you want).
And trust me, I can't wait to do that
Like many people posting here, I also work in Software Development, and we routinely talk about what we are releasing, even in very abstract terms. It's in our best interests as a company to keep the clients interested in what we are developing, even if it's just in the prototype/conceptual phase.
The only thing that sort of keeps my faith in any future DDi releases are the cease-and-desist orders they are firing out to open-source mapping tools and campaign planners like MasterPlan. This gives me hope that they are developing a for-pay competitor, and so they are trying to bring the hammer down on the freebies doing the same thing.
The only thing that sort of keeps my faith in any future DDi releases are the cease-and-desist orders they are firing out to open-source mapping tools and campaign planners like MasterPlan. This gives me hope that they are developing a for-pay competitor, and so they are trying to bring the hammer down on the freebies doing the same thing.
To the best of my knowledge, WotC has sent out 2 C&D letters.
One was to a website that was putting the full text of the various powers on its website.
The other was to MasterPlan, and that appears to have been solely due to the way that MasterPlan was interacting with the Compendium.
What mapping tools have received a C&D letter??
And trust me, I can't wait to do that
Can't wait to hear it!
Get back to work.
The only thing that sort of keeps my faith in any future DDi releases are the cease-and-desist orders they are firing out to open-source mapping tools and campaign planners like MasterPlan. This gives me hope that they are developing a for-pay competitor, and so they are trying to bring the hammer down on the freebies doing the same thing.
To the best of my knowledge, WotC has sent out 2 C&D letters.
One was to a website that was putting the full text of the various powers on its website.
The other was to MasterPlan, and that appears to have been solely due to the way that MasterPlan was interacting with the Compendium.
What mapping tools have received a C&D letter??
They've sent out more than that, those are just the two high profile cases. I've seen a few other power cards and content copying sites shut down around the same time as Ema. The later was just shocking because his sheets were so good and everyone used them. And a I know of a couple Dragonlance related fan products that were C&Ded. Including one that was a comprehensive timeline akin to the Grand History of the Realms.
But I don't know of any mapping programs being shut-down.
when you look back at the launching of 4.0 the great thing about it was the ools and the engine design behind it to enable full onlilne gaming experience and a complete set of Hardware(tiles & miniatures)/software interaction to provide such an experience..
that wasn't just said in a forum... or a vague promise of a "possible future" ..
that was the goal, the target in the future that this brand was heading to.
Facts:
there are a thousand bloggers , pics, and videos on youtube about this new online promise.
it's even printed in theirr own books!! the image of the 3d beholder and the 3d fighter standing in an abstract dungeon.
Fact: and this is the part that round it out for me...
they announce that every miniature develop since 4.0 was going to have a special code so you can redeem it as a online miniature for use it in said engine.... the truth,. no miniature has that...
So my wild guess is that their planning in a sort of online commerce based in micro-transaction... selling you cheap parts of everything.,.. buy cheap online dungeons tiles,. cheap online miniatures,. or boosters,. cheap dungeon dressings. that is what MTG online is.. that's what D&D online did when their subs plan was failing... that's the future of online gaming world...a set of free modules,and default D&D online props to hook you up and then drain you with the little extras...
for the record, I would totally be hooked up with it, but for that it has to be release
they announce that every miniature develop since 4.0 was going to have a special code so you can redeem it as a online miniature for use it in said engine.... the truth,. no miniature has that...
I don't remember this being said at all.
( I am slacker I know )as a former D&D Miniatures organizer in my country, and part the of DDM Guild I can recall pretty good about it...
There should have been some post at hordelings.com.
We suffer as DDM players a mayor shock when the format was changed to 2.0 and one of the arguments used to sooth the comunity was this...
Surely folks like Guy Ferluton or Kevin Tratoe can help me out on this one.
But I don't mind if it was dumped or not... or if it was said or not... what I do mind... it's the fact that already another company @gencon show a similar idea and actually looks great... but my favorite brand gave us deadends that day...
That's why I make my post earlier this week, asking for devs to give us some juicy intel to discuss about...
I guess I just want something to look forward to, and to help me justify my DDi subscription in my own mind. Yeah, character builder and monster builder are pretty cool, but as Dungeon Master, they don't do a whole lot to make running my multiple campaigns easier.
I want to be able to build encounters, and create customized traps, and develop skill challenges with the tools. I want to organize dungeon tiles into a cool reference map I can use to lay out those same tiles on the game table. I want to organize the decision points of my campaign and create a workflow for me to guide the players through. To me, those are Adventure Tools.
I've never been a pre-printed adventure guy; the fun for me is making it all up myself. And every time I fire up Adventure Tools, all I look at is the potential of those five other empty buttons. I understand the WotC makes money from their printed books (you can tell that from the release schedule for 2011 just announced), but that's all just geared to people who want to buy more and more books.
I want to get more out of the books I've already bought.
they announce that every miniature develop since 4.0 was going to have a special code so you can redeem it as a online miniature for use it in said engine.... the truth,. no miniature has that...
I don't remember this being said at all.
Yeah, it did happen, though a long time ago. Back when the online gaming table was being demoed there was discussion about how you would buy physical minis and receive an unlock code. Later they dropped that and said we would buy online minis separately and not get unlock codes. This is way back when they were saying that all of 4E would come with a free digital copy if you bought the physical one. I recall speaking to someone on the demo team that said the unlock codes just would not work in any reasonable fashion without being a copy protection / pirating nightmare (I am sure they are right).
But, really, the history is just that WotC has not found a successful path in this digital arena. Not a shocker to me. And because the core subscription concept was predicated on the gaming table and online tools being a big part of it, many will continue to be disappointed until the whole package is delivered. The basic truths of gaming companies is that they are always unprofitable, always fail to separate gamer opinion from what will actually make money, never deliver on time, etc. It has to do with many aspects, but part of it has just been a lack of business sense within gaming companies. While the WotC today is far better than the TSR of yesteryear (understatement), most of us that work in the IT field know we would not have the job we have today if we ran a project at all like DDI has been run... and the layoffs suggest WotC sees that to some extent. I always wish everyone at WotC well, but it is indeed time for the digital team to become a smooth well-oiled machine that both announces and meets deadlines, delivers functionality consistent with WotC being a gaming leader, and beats other comparable offerings. The Character Builder suggests WotC can accomplish this, but to date Adventure Tools has disappointed most of WotC's customers.
I am sure that Wotc employees and volunteers would love to see everyone back off and believe. But, threads like this one (started one month ago saying something is in the works) combined with very little attention to bugs (see the threads with Monster Builder bugs that get no attention from WotC) leave many inclined to complain.
tbe.taleo.net/NA4/ats/careers/searchResu...
And trust me, I can't wait to do that
Problem is, we've been waiting for too long.
At this point I am tired of waiting for templates and other stuff that should be available for years now.
Give real developers the hooks to allow them to create products for legitimate DDI subscribers.
We would have a plethora of incredible products across many platforms available in months.
On the other hand, I know that, under the present team, in a few years the Monster Builder may come out of beta. Oh what a joyous day that will be!
These are both exciting dreams.
And trust me, I can't wait to do that
Problem is, we've been waiting for too long.
At this point I am tired of waiting for templates and other stuff that should be available for years now.
That's exactly my point.
Waiting is fine as long as we're given updates and improvements. If we're reassured that they're doing something... anything.
We get the monthly content updates, which feels like the bare minimum. There have been untouched bugs in the Character Builder for nine months, many which seem like simple fixes. We saw no Monster Builder changes for a solid year and only then in forced response to the MM3.
Still, it doesn't cost you anything to wait. You have to remove yourself from what might be and decide if the magazines have enough content to keep you interested.
You have to decide how much you want to pay and how often. If you want to pay for a year or for three months with a gap every so often or, like me, and just a couple times a year when a big player or monster book is released.
It might help people understand why, if you could explain some of those factors.
For example, I understand you don't want to repeate history. But outside of that, what other factors are there?
Well, there is the whole "expectation management" issue. WotC got burned by overpromising and underdelivering (like, for example, Microsoft did with Longhorn/Vista) and would rather take the underpromising/overdelivering stance next (just like, for example, Microsoft and Windows 7 ).
Then there are competitive issues to take into account, business positioning, release schedule, etc...
There are many reasons why we can't talk about future stuff freely. I am sorry for that.
Why don't factors like "expectation management" apply to the print products that are discussed well in advance of their release? I know the history with the adventure tools, but I think at this point, it's a valid question.
What competitive issues exist? With the exception of Atari, doesn't WotC maintain exclusive control of the license in the digital arena?
Also, I'm a little confused... business positioning... the release schedule... what does this mean exactly? How do these factors apply differently to the adventure tools compared with the print products?
I saw speculation on another thread about why the print products are promoted so far in advance of their release, but I didn't see any comment or clarification by WotC.
Cheers...
Z
That being said, coming onto the boards with the cryptic message of "We are working on something"...
How to phrase this delicately?
Well, duh.
I understand that there is demand for word, any word, but really, that is more or less a non statement. I can appreciate the fact that it is something that they felt that they had to do, but it's almost like saying: "In 2011, we're gonna release books! Yay!" Well, duh.
That being said, I, personally, am not overly concerned one way or the other. I feel that I get plenty of value for my dollar with just the Character Builder and the mags. Anything after that is gravy.
When they pop on with exciting news regarding digital versions of books, quality e-reader/tablet support, and dedicated mobile apps, *then* I will get excited.
Something interesting I saw today was on the most recent blog post on Neogrognard.com. Mike Donais appears in the post, and it says he's now working for a game developer in California. How much turnover has occurred in the DDi department over these past two years?
A lot as far as I can tell. For example most (all at this point?) of the developers who created the
Character Builder have not been employed by WotC for a while now. The two folks who as I understand it did most of the coding were let go a long while back. I don't know how management has fared, since I've never spoken to any of them, just to some of the developers, though with Donais being gone apparently that should tell you something (Paulo Macucci who posted earlier in the thread has been with WotC for like 5-6 months or so).
Many of the folks involved with the team that created the compendium and character builder were initially there on work-to-hire contracts, and then never hired fulltime when those contracts lapsed, others were fired during some the purges around the time of the DDI initial launch. It's likely that the high turnover and chronic understaffing is responsible for the lack of progress and the fact that tools are still in Beta a year after being released. I wish I knew more about the current situation, but all of the sordid details I know are a year out of date with anyone I knew internally having since been laid off or resigned.
I wish that Wizards would just allow developers to have access to their database. And reduce (although I am not sure that is the correct word) their team to data entry and database maintenance only.
Give real developers the hooks to allow them to create products for legitimate DDI subscribers.
We would have a plethora of incredible products across many platforms available in months.
As D&D players I think this would be an amazing solution for us. I agree that within months you'd have huge amounts of great products out there all competing to be the de facto software of choice. It would be great for us as players of this game.
But let's face it, as great an idea as that is, it's never going to happen. Sadly.
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
Why not announce what is in the tubes and be honest about time schedules instead of saying it will be done by such and such a date.
Let me be a bit more direct though. We were told a lot of stuff was coming our way like a virtual gameboard, a character visualizer, and a suite of DM/Player tools. We have gotten only a small portion of what was promised despite two years. What more, we saw working betas of these products. I think the D&D community would be more forgiving if they knew that these early things were still being worked on to some capacity, and that they aren't just paying into a promise of something cool coming.
Personally, I like D&D Insider, but I too would like to know that they're still working on these early promises.
Let me be a bit more direct though. We were told a lot of stuff was coming our way like a virtual gameboard, a character visualizer, and a suite of DM/Player tools. We have gotten only a small portion of what was promised despite two years. What more, we saw working betas of these products. I think the D&D community would be more forgiving if they knew that these early things were still being worked on to some capacity, and that they aren't just paying into a promise of something cool coming.
Or what I think would happen (even though I would love to hear from WoTC what they are working on) is:
"When will it come out! All takk no show! Vaporware!"
Or essentialy: same old as last year but now you can name the product your whining about.
I fully understand why Wizards isn't releasing anymore info...it's because of the vocal (major/minor) group who spouted hate and whine all over the boards because a contractor of Wizards has gone bankrupt and they couldn't deliver the (almost finished but not quite) tools.
Now they have to do it themselves and learned from their mistake to telling stuff they can't quite control to being quiet and risk having a (probably lesser) vocal group.
Fazit: It would be nice if Wizard would tell us what their working on...but I foresee only hate and whine if they won't release it the month after an(y) announcement.
Anyone else feel like a mushroom?
And trust me, I can't wait to do that
If you can't wait ... don't! Just tell us already!
You know keeping things bottled up is bad for your chakra. I'm only thinking of your long term health here. ;)
When the monster builder came out, was it launched the same time they announced it? Or was there a little time between when WOTC announced it and it was put out? Maybe they are waiting for it to be ready and then say "here it is"
If I recall correctly, it was announced that it was ready a week or two ahead of time, there were screen shots/etc shown, and then it was released. However, I could be mistaken.
If I recall correctly, it was announced that it was ready a week or two ahead of time, there were screen shots/etc shown, and then it was released. However, I could be mistaken.
That's about right.
When the monster builder came out, was it launched the same time they announced it? Or was there a little time between when WOTC announced it and it was put out? Maybe they are waiting for it to be ready and then say "here it is"
If I recall correctly, it was announced that it was ready a week or two ahead of time, there were screen shots/etc shown, and then it was released. However, I could be mistaken.
I think Character Builder was released the same day it was announce in beta for everyone.
And for the record, check this vids made by GamerZer0 back in 07' when all this started:
www.youtube.com/user/GamerZer0#p/u/93/Uj...
That vid is just part 4, I suggest you guys watch all the stuff from 4th edition at GamerZer0 channel, so we get a really hold on what was promised and hasn't been delivered.
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
It actually doesn't matter to me.
I've bought my subscription for the parts then available (Dungeon, Dragon, CB) and renewed it for the parts then available (as above plus MB). When my subscription runs out I'll evaluate what is available then and how much the asking price is.
Any additional stuff labeled as coming soon or being worked on won't affect my decision.
The only scenario I wish some reliable announcement would be available is when I'd decide to spend some time and effort to learn a fan made tool. This decision might be affected by an announcement.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
I'll bite.
Yes. I would rather WotC say absolutely nothing until they are ready to.
Why?
Because if they did say something and it turns out that thing never came out or didn't come out in a reasonable time-frame, everyone would go absolutely nuts. If they did say, "Yeah, we're working on Encounter Builder." And, so, there are a ton of people sign up expecting the Encounter Builder, I don't want to hear round two of the whole D&D Insider debacle that happened at launch.
I'd rather wait. Because, I'm currently happy with:
My subscription pricing.
The current tools offered.
The magazines and their content.
And, if they do announce a new tool, I want to get my hands on it as soon as possible and not have to wait for it or be disappointed that it never comes.
So, yeah.
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
I'd prefer that. I know they're working on something; if they drop notice the day of release, and otherwise don't even hint at things, that's fine with me. I tend to dislike coy teasers and "ooh, it's gonna be so cool!" comments, and if it's not ready for me to buy, I usually wish I hadn't heard about it.
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
I'm currently happy with:
My subscription pricing.
The current tools offered.
The magazines and their content.
And, if they do announce a new tool, I want to get my hands on it as soon as possible and not have to wait for it or be disappointed that it never comes.
So, yeah.
I am also happy paying for what I am getting, and since it has already been stated from the beginning, any additional tool will be charged additional and would be able to some sorts of "premium accounts".
We are not being given less for our money (asides the bugs).
But stop feeding the cash cow, will eventually end up in it's demise... waiting sucks, but worst of all, DDI had lost the momentum it achieved back in 07'-08' rendering all that hard PR and merchandise work useless. and from any point of view, that's wasted money and labor they could have invest in something more useful.
But stop feeding the cash cow, will eventually end up in it's demise... waiting sucks, but worst of all, DDI had lost the momentum it achieved back in 07'-08' rendering all that hard PR and merchandise work useless. and from any point of view, that's wasted money and labor they could have invest in something more useful.
You make it sound like I'm opposed to new tools in general. I'm not. I want more tools and more refined tools.
I'd love to see a Mapper, Trap/Disease/Hazard/Item Creation tool, Campaign Manager, and even more customization for the Character Builder.
However, I'm also not subscribing specifically for those new tools like some others here are wanting. I'm not paying my cash in the "hopes" that there will be new tools. I'm paying my cash for a good product, and hopefully that success renders the option for new tools a viable path for WotC.
Make sense?
But stop feeding the cash cow, will eventually end up in it's demise... waiting sucks, but worst of all, DDI had lost the momentum it achieved back in 07'-08' rendering all that hard PR and merchandise work useless. and from any point of view, that's wasted money and labor they could have invest in something more useful.
You make it sound like I'm opposed to new tools in general. I'm not. I want more tools and more refined tools.
I'd love to see a Mapper, Trap/Disease/Hazard/Item Creation tool, Campaign Manager, and even more customization for the Character Builder.
However, I'm also not subscribing specifically for those new tools like some others here are wanting. I'm not paying my cash in the "hopes" that there will be new tools. I'm paying my cash for a good product, and hopefully that success renders the option for new tools a viable path for WotC.
Make sense?
totally.
without our support there'll be any tool at all.
and I agreed that not informing to the costumer of anything until it's ready to ship is better than creating hope and expectation for something, but the damage has already been done.
I personally felt for the lure of all this promises, and I wanted to be part of it from the start, I knew what I was paying for, I knew new tools will cost more and I wasn't hoping that my current fees of DDI will cover those tools, but if I had known back then that it would take them 2 or 3 or more years just to release the full suits even in beta, I would have think twice before investing.
it's all about entering a business relationship based on false information or lack of it.
I will keep supporting the tools FWIWs, not hoping new tools are release, but to fuel (even with this little cash) the brand I want to see grow until I can economically afford it, while enjoying the current tools and magazine that I use frequently, but I still have that bitter taste, that somehow, at some point as a customer, I was missinformed and neglected.
totally.
without our support there'll be any tool at all.
and I agreed that not informing to the costumer of anything until it's ready to ship is better than creating hope and expectation for something, but the damage has already been done.
I personally felt for the lure of all this promises, and I wanted to be part of it from the start, I knew what I was paying for, I knew new tools will cost more and I wasn't hoping that my current fees of DDI will cover those tools, but if I had known back then that it would take them 2 or 3 or more years just to release the full suits even in beta, I would have think twice before investing.
it's all about entering a business relationship based on false information or lack of it.
I will keep supporting the tools FWIWs, not hoping new tools are release, but to fuel (even with this little cash) the brand I want to see grow until I can economically afford it, while enjoying the current tools and magazine that I use frequently, but I still have that bitter taste, that somehow, at some point as a customer, I was missinformed and neglected.
I get where you're coming from too. I was hyped for D&D Insider at launch and disappointed that all the preview videos I saw didn't amount to anything.
However, **** happens. Life goes on.
And, here we are.
And then. And. THEN!!!!
I see this!
ps3.ign.com/articles/111/1111629p1.html
There could be hope for the VTT yet!
Because if they did say something and it turns out that thing never came out or didn't come out in a reasonable time-frame, everyone would go absolutely nuts. If they did say, "Yeah, we're working on Encounter Builder." And, so, there are a ton of people sign up expecting the Encounter Builder, I don't want to hear round two of the whole D&D Insider debacle that happened at launch.
Certainly a reasonable point of view, but I am afraid I can't agree with your conclusion.
I would, personally, find it difficult to directly compare the Tool Production at the start of 4E and this time around. To my mind they are structurally distinct to such a degree that one couldn't be used as a basis for conclusions about the other.
My major reason for believing so is, quite simply, that there is no limiting event this time around. The tools can take as long as they need to. There is, in this case, no "opening day" to make. As such the "reasonable time-frame" argument already loses some of its strength. People have been waiting for the tools for two years already, I am sure they could deal with waiting a little longer with more information. I don't know about you, but I personally will respond far better to a generalised production diary than a vacuum.
By a "generalised" production diary, I mean something that outlines the current status without giving away what might be sensitive details.
Examples might be:
"We started planning the X today, it's complex but we are looking forward to the challenge!"
"We just got the new layouts from Bob, they look good, with a couple of modifications to take account of the new functionality they could be great"
or even
"Ah heck, two steps forward and one step back, it looks like the module handling X is going to need a different approach, stick with us people!
And you know what, even though one of those is negative, it is still positive because it is indicating progress, a negative result on a particular task isn't a failure, it happens all the time (especially in my own work) and helps narrow down the possibilities until you find something that does work.
And what the above is likely to accomplish is that it, without specifying timelines, gives the userbase a sense of progress, a sense of the exciting things to come and gives little fragments that can be talked about and possibly even speculated upon ("How do you think they will handle X?", "Well, in last week's post they said they were looking at Y, maybe they will do it that way, or maybe even Z!"). Such discussion and speculation may well help keep community fresh in a way that sitting in a vacuum wouldn't. I've been in a similar situation (the 4 year hiatus between the release of two games) and it wasn't a great deal of fun.
You say you fear the wave of complaints, apart from the outright cancellation of a tool, I find it difficult to see why there would be one. Even with the diary, would there be people who grumbled? Of course! This is the internet and some people will always grumble. Will there be more complaints with such a communication system than in the current climate where it doesn't exist? I doubt it, and yet neither you or I can accurately say one way or the other...
...but I would sure as heck like to see WotC take that risk for, what may well be, our mutual benefit, rather than playing it safe and maintaining the situation as it is.
I am happy with what I am getting for my money now, but I certainly understand why some people would be frustrated. If they were to use code names for the tools they could give us updates without worrying about giving stuff away.
"Hey guys, great news....we are another major step closer to being ready to add the 'Hack and Slash' tool to the Adventure Builder"
"We are still about 2 or 3 months away from having a firm date on when "The Beholder" tool will be ready for a beta testing"
We wouldn't know what is coming, but we would be able to have an idea of how close we really are to seing something new. And we could create a forum with 23 pages of specualtion on what the secret new tool is. Instead of arguing over whether or not the verbage used in whatever post came last is actually corporate double speak or not
Just my two cents.
Sure there would have been less complaints if they had come out with the VTT. But here we are.
If they say what they are working on, there will be tons of questions, suggestions, accusations and such by people that are forming opinions without actually seeing the product. Look at Essentials.
If they don't say anything, complaints.
If they say something, and it's not the exact info a person wants, complaints.
If they give full disclosure, and then come back when things change for whatever reason, complaints. Take for example the Monster Builder update that got pushed back a month.
The purpose of this thread by Microbless was to let people know that DDi is being worked on, new tools are being developed, but that at this time, they aren't/can't/won't say more, but it's getting close to when they CAN.
Take it for what it is. I'm frustrated, I was at GenCon, I was hoping to hear something. I did get to talk to a lot of Art Directors and people that work at WoTC.
Trust me, they are just as upset over the failure to have all of DDi when they wanted, and these people don't even work on DDi. They also fully understand the frustration the fans feel.
As one said to me "Yeah, they can be harsh on the forums, but that just shows how much they love the game and enjoy it, so we take that away when someone rants"
But the simple fact is, they got burned bad in the past. And for many reasons, the best course of action is to say as little as possible till everything is go.
Getting angry isn't going to change that. Trying to speak with your wallet isn't going to change that either.
If you like what they offer, and find it useful, get DDI. Even the current tools help my game prep so much.
If it's not something you need, then don't get it.
No matter what they do, there will always be complaints.
The purpose of this thread by Microbless was to let people know that DDi is being worked on, new tools are being developed, but that at this time, they aren't/can't/won't say more, but it's getting close to when they CAN.
well this was the initial porpuse, but then they combined 3 other post within this and lock the others down.
So we got 3 or so main stream ideas running in this post
If a book release is delayed, people get pissy, sure, but there isn't the outrage of feeling like their money is being wasted (whether the feeling is accurate or not). They simply have to wait longer for the opportunity to purchase the book.
In the case of DDi, many people have an active subscription that they pay for in regular installments, which is partially based on the notion that extra features will be added as time goes on. This is a tricky business move since WotC aren't directly promising the user something, but they are hinting that new stuff is on the way. This method makes the situation more or less lose/lose for Wizards. They can't over promise and under deliver, or people complain. But at the same time, if they say nothing, people complain that they aren't getting anything new for their subscription, when (whether this is accurate or not, it is a commonly perceived notion) it was inferred that new tools would come out as time went on. The problem then extends to them coming on the boards and saying that they are working on "something". The issue here is that this is an incredibly obvious statement. Of course they are.
By keeping it a subscription service, the subscriber is bound to get upset when they feel the company they are paying isn't producing, as they are not getting a value equal to their investment (again, a matter of perspective).
So to my mind, it is the business model itself that needs work, rather than communication of the lack thereof. If they had gone with:
- A flat subscription rate for the two magazines and access to the Compendium
- A purchase fee for tools like the Character Builder, and then in-app purchasing of updates
They could have saved a lot of the trouble that slow development of tools is causing, since people would not have felt that they had already purchased said tools.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
In the case of DDi, many people have an active subscription that they pay for in regular installments, which is partially based on the notion that extra features will be added as time goes on.
Jell_Moo your whole post is excellent, but that sentence hits the nail on the head imo. Expectations have been created, but there's been practically no indication that those expectations will be fulfilled.
Now, there does seem to be a portion of subscribers who would be perfectly happy if no further tools were developed. Those subscribers would likely maintain their subscription even if Wotc announced tomorrow that future development would be ended and all efforts would focus on database management. There also seems to be a portion of subscribers who maintain subscriptions based on the idea that their payments are fueling further development. Those subscribers need to know what kind of ROI their payments are going to have, or they will eventually walk away. How long they'll wait is likely an individual variable. Finally, there is a group of potential subscribers who are waiting for an indication of what's really going on with DDI before they maintain a subscription. These people may subscribe 1-4 times a year, or just follow DDI news very closely in hopes of a good sign. Please note that I make no attempt to judge the majority/minority/size of these groups, I have no data to base such a judgement on.
I know that I fall firmly in the latter group. I don't speak for anyone else in the group, but I won't be purchasing a yearly subscription until both a new tool is released and Wotc learns how to share information about the development cycle. Quite frankly, I don't trust the management of the DDI project because of their track record, and the more opaque they make their process the more they will have to work to earn my trust. If however, like Jell_Moo suggests they change their subscription model to include only the Compendium, Dragon and Dungeon; I would have to at least consider changing my tune. If I could focus my expectations on those features and know that I can purchase any future tools outright, I'd have much less to be dissapointed about. There will be some people who won't ever be satisfied with DDI simply because the entire suite did not release at the 4e debut, but the ship hasn't sailed for the majority* of the fanbase.
*yes, I do feel comfortable calling majority one that one. Again, no data, just a gut feeling.
I have a question regarding WotC's policy to say nothing:
Is there a single DDi subscriber who would prefer that WotC say nothing till stuff is released (i.e. their current policy), rather than actually tell us what is being worked on (as was their current policy a couple of years ago) ?
Why not announce what is in the tubes and be honest about time schedules instead of saying it will be done by such and such a date.
I would prefer that they say nothing until a product is in the stages of final polish and ready to be released within a month or less. Much like they did with the CB and the MB. The CB had the demo version released first and the full version came a bit later. The MB was announced and then released a few weeks later.
Let me be a bit more direct though. We were told a lot of stuff was coming our way like a virtual gameboard, a character visualizer, and a suite of DM/Player tools. We have gotten only a small portion of what was promised despite two years. What more, we saw working betas of these products. I think the D&D community would be more forgiving if they knew that these early things were still being worked on to some capacity, and that they aren't just paying into a promise of something cool coming.
Personally, I like D&D Insider, but I too would like to know that they're still working on these early promises.
Not that I have any insight into what they're working on, but it's my belief that those early offerings aren't even on the drawing board at this point. The reasons why:
1. The original programs were farmed out to the 3rd party company. Something happened. I don't remember what, but I'm sure Dane McArdy coudl post on it as he has posted the scenario at least a dozen times and can probably do so again or at least link to it. Needless to say, WotC was no longer working with them and they had to re-start from square one.
2. After all this they did a poll asking people what kind of tools they wanted to see. Much of the original stuff was waaaay down on the list of what people wanted to see. What was most desired was what is now going to be dubbed "Adventure Tools." Things like a mapping program (that was in the original), encounter builder, campaign manager, monster builder, etc. Things to make the DMs life easier. It's most likely they are going off that poll, especially since the Monster Builder was the 2nd release.
So, aside form the map builder, I wouldn't hold my breath for the other things unless they're developing everythign simultaneously.
When a group of students can create something like Surfacescapes for a class project it leaves me scratching my head as to what issues a company like Hasbro has at delivering their digital product for DnD. Here are links to two different videos. I recommend letting them load completely before playing them.
vimeo.com/11471075
vimeo.com/11462817
Please excuse me if this has been brought up before but I am new to the dialogue. In addition, I know that I am throwing apples in with the oranges a bit.
When a group of students can create something like Surfacescapes for a class project it leaves me scratching my head as to what issues a company like Hasbro has at delivering their digital product for DnD. Here are links to two different videos. I recommend letting them load completely before playing them.
vimeo.com/11471075
vimeo.com/11462817
Wow. Wow. Wow. And again, wow.
When a group of students can create something like Surfacescapes for a class project it leaves me scratching my head as to what issues a company like Hasbro has at delivering their digital product for DnD.
The issue is actually quite simple. Hasbro is not now, nor ever has been, willing to put forward the effort required to actually get these products to market.
Please excuse me if this has been brought up before but I am new to the dialogue. In addition, I know that I am throwing apples in with the oranges a bit.
When a group of students can create something like Surfacescapes for a class project it leaves me scratching my head as to what issues a company like Hasbro has at delivering their digital product for DnD. Here are links to two different videos. I recommend letting them load completely before playing them.
vimeo.com/11471075
vimeo.com/11462817
As a side note, I watched a video from PAX in April with one of the people from the team. This was all developed in 26 weeks. A Microsoft Surface Table is not realistic at this point but what about a larger iPad or even some other touch pad tech?
if we took everything that was in a prototype stage and said "Why dont we have this already!!!!one!" We should be complaining about self parking cars, wall climbing kits, jetpacks, flying cars or anything cool they said we would have in the 21st century...
just because someone made it. doesnt mean its feasible on a commercial scale.
along the lines of the surface scape thing. Rapid prototyping can be done quite quickly just watch "Prototype this" on the discovery channel.
if we took everything that was in a prototype stage and said "Why dont we have this already!!!!one!" We should be complaining about self parking cars, wall climbing kits, jetpacks, flying cars or anything cool they said we would have in the 21st century...
just because someone made it. doesnt mean its feasible on a commercial scale.
Based on the videos out there from this student project, it appeared to be way past prototype. It could be due to my lack of tech savy but the last demo in May seemed very playable. Regardless, the point that I was trying to make was that something this fleshed out was done as a student project in 26 weeks. What can/should we expect from a multi-national corporation, such as Hasbro?
What can/should we expect from a multi-national corporation, such as Hasbro?
That would depend on how many people are currently working on it, and what kind of resources they have access too. I suspect that both answers may not be as sizeable as we might hope.
along the lines of the surface scape thing. Rapid prototyping can be done quite quickly just watch "Prototype this" on the discovery channel.
if we took everything that was in a prototype stage and said "Why dont we have this already!!!!one!" We should be complaining about self parking cars, wall climbing kits, jetpacks, flying cars or anything cool they said we would have in the 21st century...
just because someone made it. doesnt mean its feasible on a commercial scale.
Based on the videos out there from this student project, it appeared to be way past prototype. It could be due to my lack of tech savy but the last demo in May seemed very playable. Irregardless, the point that I was trying to make was that something this fleshed out was done as a student project in 26 weeks. What can/should we expect from a multi-national corporation, such as Hasbro?
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
They aren't going to show a prototype that fails, are they? They are going to show what they did in the best possible light. It's all set up and designed to show the possiblities in the best possible light.
As for being fleshed out, you don't know that. Also, what they were showing wasn't the same thing as the VTT was planned to be. They were showing a flat, 2d playing board that was touch interactive.
Honestly, in this day and age, that isn't to hard, so yeah, I expect a group of students to be able to do that in 26 weeks.
The VTT was much more, and was in 3D, and what we saw was the basic 3d version, as they were working to adding more. That's a lot more complex then a 2d flat playing surfice.
I think it's a great idea, I think it's certainly possible. But I don't think the screen size is going to be commerically viable, so would likely have to go down in scale. As it was, it was a piece of furniture.
As a side note, I watched a video from PAX in April with one of the people from the team. This was all developed in 26 weeks. A Microsoft Surface Table is not realistic at this point but what about a larger iPad or even some other touch pad tech?
You've just reminded me that PAX is coming up in a month.
Does anyone know if WotC going to be at PAX? I'd assume so, since it's just a short commute away from Wizards HQ, it's a gargantuan con with a large tabletop gaming segment, and because WotC and the Penny Arcade/Acquisitions, Inc guys seem to be pretty tight.
So... maybe this "soon" we're hearing about is really "September 3-5" at PAX Prime 2010?
I know I shouldn't get my hopes up for anything at this point, but I think I just did.
So... maybe this "soon" we're hearing about is really "September 3-5" at PAX Prime 2010?
I know I shouldn't get my hopes up for anything at this point, but I think I just did.
Not to bust your bubble. but I seem to remember everyone saying that about GenCon...
Not to bust your bubble. but I seem to remember everyone saying that about GenCon...
Well aware, thus the reason I know I shouldn't get my hopes up.
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
They aren't going to show a prototype that fails, are they? They are going to show what they did in the best possible light. It's all set up and designed to show the possiblities in the best possible light.
As for being fleshed out, you don't know that. Also, what they were showing wasn't the same thing as the VTT was planned to be. They were showing a flat, 2d playing board that was touch interactive.
Honestly, in this day and age, that isn't to hard, so yeah, I expect a group of students to be able to do that in 26 weeks.
The VTT was much more, and was in 3D, and what we saw was the basic 3d version, as they were working to adding more. That's a lot more complex then a 2d flat playing surfice.
I think it's a great idea, I think it's certainly possible. But I don't think the screen size is going to be commerically viable, so would likely have to go down in scale. As it was, it was a piece of furniture.
Wow, I can't believe that I just read that. So in the same post you accuse these students of some sort of dishonesty about hiding flaws in their demo, all the while supporting WotC, whose demos were flawed and screen shots grabbed from a competitor's product?
Where do you feel that it's OK to attack these students? They have made no attacks or claims against WotC for you to defend. In fact, they have a relatively functional piece of software to demonstrate rather than a bunch of "Soon" and "working on" comments.
I think that most of us here would have been happy with a similarly functioning piece of software, apart from the hardware. No one honestly expects the hardware, but it is certainly OK to dream!
These students should be commended for their hard work and dedication to something they love. They should not be attacked simply because they are not working for WotC. College students have a lot of demands on their time and 26 weeks is impressive no matter how you cut it.
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
It's in Merriam-Webster. Good enough for me to be a word.
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
They aren't going to show a prototype that fails, are they? They are going to show what they did in the best possible light. It's all set up and designed to show the possiblities in the best possible light.
As for being fleshed out, you don't know that. Also, what they were showing wasn't the same thing as the VTT was planned to be. They were showing a flat, 2d playing board that was touch interactive.
Honestly, in this day and age, that isn't to hard, so yeah, I expect a group of students to be able to do that in 26 weeks.
The VTT was much more, and was in 3D, and what we saw was the basic 3d version, as they were working to adding more. That's a lot more complex then a 2d flat playing surfice.
I think it's a great idea, I think it's certainly possible. But I don't think the screen size is going to be commerically viable, so would likely have to go down in scale. As it was, it was a piece of furniture.
/sarcasm Wow Dane. Bravo. /endsarcasm
Wow, I can't believe that I just read that. So in the same post you accuse these students of some sort of dishonesty about hiding flaws in their demo, all the while supporting WotC, whose demos were flawed and screen shots grabbed from a competitor's product?
Where do you feel that it's OK to attack these students? They have made no attacks or claims against WotC for you to defend. In fact, they have a relatively functional piece of software to demonstrate rather than a bunch of "Soon" and "working on" comments.
I think that most of us here would have been happy with a similarly functioning piece of software, apart from the hardware. No one honestly expects the hardware, but it is certainly OK to dream!
These students should be commended for their hard work and dedication to something they love. They should not be attacked simply because they are not working for WotC. College students have a lot of demands on their time and 26 weeks is impressive no matter how you cut it.
This. +1.
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
They aren't going to show a prototype that fails, are they? They are going to show what they did in the best possible light. It's all set up and designed to show the possiblities in the best possible light.
As for being fleshed out, you don't know that. Also, what they were showing wasn't the same thing as the VTT was planned to be. They were showing a flat, 2d playing board that was touch interactive.
Honestly, in this day and age, that isn't to hard, so yeah, I expect a group of students to be able to do that in 26 weeks.
The VTT was much more, and was in 3D, and what we saw was the basic 3d version, as they were working to adding more. That's a lot more complex then a 2d flat playing surfice.
I think it's a great idea, I think it's certainly possible. But I don't think the screen size is going to be commerically viable, so would likely have to go down in scale. As it was, it was a piece of furniture.
Wow, I can't believe that I just read that. So in the same post you accuse these students of some sort of dishonesty about hiding flaws in their demo, all the while supporting WotC, whose demos were flawed and screen shots grabbed from a competitor's product?
Where do you feel that it's OK to attack these students? They have made no attacks or claims against WotC for you to defend. In fact, they have a relatively functional piece of software to demonstrate rather than a bunch of "Soon" and "working on" comments.
I think that most of us here would have been happy with a similarly functioning piece of software, apart from the hardware. No one honestly expects the hardware, but it is certainly OK to dream!
These students should be commended for their hard work and dedication to something they love. They should not be attacked simply because they are not working for WotC. College students have a lot of demands on their time and 26 weeks is impressive no matter how you cut it.
I can't believe you read that either, because I didn't accuse anyone of dishonesty. Nor did I attack them. What they did wasn't anything like the3D VTT. So yes, I'm not surprised that they could do what they did in 26 weeks.
Maybe the problem is you lack understanding.
Grrr, irregardless isn't a word! Pet peeve.
They aren't going to show a prototype that fails, are they? They are going to show what they did in the best possible light. It's all set up and designed to show the possiblities in the best possible light.
As for being fleshed out, you don't know that. Also, what they were showing wasn't the same thing as the VTT was planned to be. They were showing a flat, 2d playing board that was touch interactive.
Honestly, in this day and age, that isn't to hard, so yeah, I expect a group of students to be able to do that in 26 weeks.
The VTT was much more, and was in 3D, and what we saw was the basic 3d version, as they were working to adding more. That's a lot more complex then a 2d flat playing surfice.
I think it's a great idea, I think it's certainly possible. But I don't think the screen size is going to be commerically viable, so would likely have to go down in scale. As it was, it was a piece of furniture.
/sarcasm Wow Dane. Bravo. /endsarcasm
Wow, I can't believe that I just read that. So in the same post you accuse these students of some sort of dishonesty about hiding flaws in their demo, all the while supporting WotC, whose demos were flawed and screen shots grabbed from a competitor's product?
Where do you feel that it's OK to attack these students? They have made no attacks or claims against WotC for you to defend. In fact, they have a relatively functional piece of software to demonstrate rather than a bunch of "Soon" and "working on" comments.
I think that most of us here would have been happy with a similarly functioning piece of software, apart from the hardware. No one honestly expects the hardware, but it is certainly OK to dream!
These students should be commended for their hard work and dedication to something they love. They should not be attacked simply because they are not working for WotC. College students have a lot of demands on their time and 26 weeks is impressive no matter how you cut it.
This. +1.
So, what? Because I pointed how I felt the thread you started was childish, you are going to go around to other threads now?
If wizards had come out and said "we are not going to bring you the VTT", I think I would be over it. I would have been angrier at the announcement, but I would have gotten the necessary closure to eventually move on. But that isn't what wizards said.
They said "it's going on the shelf. We may return to it in the future, but we're not doing it until some other stuff gets done first."
So, two principles at work here. The first is that without a 'clean break' from the idea of getting a VTT, we still retain the hope of it. We can't get it out of our heads because we still hope for wizards to return to it, like they said they 'might'. And second: squeaky wheel syndrome. Wizards basically shelved it as a result of a poll, saying it wasn't what their poll showed the public wanted. I'd say that basically gives us an obligation to not drop the subject. By giving the news to us in that way, it implies that if enough interest in a VTT is generated, they will work on it.
So no. I haven't let go of the idea of a VTT, and will not forget wizards broken promises. If I ever wish to see a VTT, it is basically my obligation, given to me by wizards, to shout about it as loudly as possible. And to encourage others to shout about it as well.
Wizards still retains the option of giving official notice that they will not develop a VTT. If they do, I will moan. Sigh. And then I will move on and stop nagging about it. Until then:
Wizards, develop the VTT. You promised. Make good.
Dane has often lamented the fact that certain vocal posters (I number among them) have never been able to get over the VTT thing. We keep bringing it up, even two years later. So I decided to ask myself the question... why am I not over this? I have a theory. Or an opinion maybe.
If wizards had come out and said "we are not going to bring you the VTT", I think I would be over it. I would have been angrier at the announcement, but I would have gotten the necessary closure to eventually move on. But that isn't what wizards said.
They said "it's going on the shelf. We may return to it in the future, but we're not doing it until some other stuff gets done first."
So, two principles at work here. The first is that without a 'clean break' from the idea of getting a VTT, we still retain the hope of it. We can't get it out of our heads because we still hope for wizards to return to it, like they said they 'might'. And second: squeaky wheel syndrome. Wizards basically shelved it as a result of a poll, saying it wasn't what their poll showed the public wanted. I'd say that basically gives us an obligation to not drop the subject. By giving the news to us in that way, it implies that if enough interest in a VTT is generated, they will work on it.
So no. I haven't let go of the idea of a VTT, and will not forget wizards broken promises. If I ever wish to see a VTT, it is basically my obligation, given to me by wizards, to shout about it as loudly as possible. And to encourage others to shout about it as well.
Wizards still retains the option of giving official notice that they will not develop a VTT. If they do, I will moan. Sigh. And then I will move on and stop nagging about it. Until then:
Wizards, develop the VTT. You promised. Make good.
I'm impressed. Nicely put.
If you want to take it as a promise, I won't disagree, you're welcome to see it as you want.
But, since that's the stance you want to take, is it unfair of WoTC to react in such a way that they don't put themselves in position where a customer feels they were given a promises?
Since you feel that when WoTC talks about digital products they are planning and working on equals a promise, and WoTC isn't promising anything, because it can't, the only way they have for you to not take what they say as a promise, is to not say anything.
Since then they have adopted, as a reaction to how upset people felt about what happened with the VTT, the current policy they have in regards to digital products. Which, no one can deny, because WoTC has said, yes, part of their new policy is based on not repeating what happened two years ago, and they agree with the customers, they hyped it way to much.
From dictionary.reference.com:
dictionary.reference.com/browse/promise
So what did we get? A simple line in previews saying they were working on a vtt? No we got more. Advertisements in the most important core book (PHB) that said "And with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere--whereever they live, wherever you go."? No we got more. Staff blogs and developer blogs about making digital integration a key feature and theme of fourth edition and a key reason why we should switch over from third edition? No we got more. We got demos and youtube videos of the product shown to us at conventions that displayed functionality and specific features.
So... referencing the above dictionary definition of the word, I believe I'm justified in saying that wizards promised the community a VTT.
And I know the following statement is true: I wish wizards would create one.
So, referencing my earlier post, I am obligated to say as often and as loudly as I can that wizards needs to pick up this particular dropped ball.
Dane: a suggestion. Drop your objection to the use of the word 'promise'. It's a losing argument. By nearly any reading of the definition of a promise, wotc made promises. What you should focus on is whether, in the context of a business dealing with its customers, wotc has any obligation to honor its promises. After all, wotc isn't made up of solamnic knights. Their honor is not their life. The real question is whether or not it is a good idea for them to honor the promise of the VTT. Also, it would be beneficial for wotc to take the (rather simple) step of learning how to make statements about what they are working on without making promises. Their current policy of not saying anything, while accomplishing their goal of not making new promises, is an extreme stance which has not impressed customers, and has in fact alienated many.
So, you want to talk about WoTC's promise (as you see it), but you don't want me to respond to that. So basically you don't want to actually have a conversation.
I'm fine with that, but it would be nice if you wouldn't talk about me in a public forum or direct posts at me. I'll respect your wishes to not talk about this, so long as you give the same respect.
As can be seen from the number of threads that regularly pop up in this very forum pointing out how WotC screwed up, and which have never been deleted (I am trying to find out why yours got disappeared), I hope that you feel comfortable putting that idea to rest.
The truth of the matter is that any form of censorship on the WotC site to eliminate negative views or opinions of WotC material would do much more harm to the public perception of WotC than it could do good.
If someone sends you an insulting PM, report it. That option is available in this forum software.
I am not sure where posting that another user has sent you a PM about a particular topic falls along the CoC line. Please send me a PM with the details (if you feel comfortable doing so) so that I can ask the ORCs. As always, I make no promises, etc, etc etc. I don't know if I will get any specifics, but I hope to get an inication or idea.
Kyros - FWIW, and to the best of my knowledge, WotC has *no* intention of ever turning these forums into an echo chamber where the only posts that are allowed to stay are various versions of "WotC is great. WotC is awesome!!"
I know WOTC has no intention of that. But the rabid fanboys that do nothing but post on these fourms seem to think otherwise.
************
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
fanboys shmanboys.
haters shmaters.
I found the VTT as originally pitched to be a very compelling product. I was sold. I was disappointed in what happened. But even so, I would still jump at the opportunity to become a subscriber to the original vision.
It is really that simple. Build it and I will buy.
Until DDI provides the tools that enable me to actually play D&D online, I'll probably be on the sidelines pushing for the tools I want.
WotC's reticence to talk about anything DDI though is more than disappointing, it is frustrating to the n-th degree. I want to support them. I honestly do. It is much easier to do when there is a visible roadmap. How close are we to where we are going? Are we getting closer each month? Are we even headed in the direction I want to go? I want to give them my money. But I also want the features I want.
1: "No product and no info" vs "we will get info soon"
2: "WOTC didnt deliver the product they promised years ago" vs "WOTC never used the word promise"
Thats really a sad state of affairs for a community to be in no matter if you are in nerd rage or a blind fanboy.
There is no product to talk about, no news about future products. Its always the lack of things.
Lack of a product, lack of news and information. The big yearly event has passed and nothing.
For those that keep saying that its the community's fault for complaining and that when we become mature then wotc will talk with us.
Really? REALLY?!? WOTC are not our parents and we arent 5 year olds.
They are a company that makes products that as customers we make the choice on spending money with them or not.
Now the point could be made that it is now a vicious circle in which both parties are acting immature. In that I agree.
However wotc needs our money more then we need DDI so the onus rests with them to change things.
WotC's reticence to talk about anything DDI though is more than disappointing, it is frustrating to the n-th degree. I want to support them. I honestly do. It is much easier to do when there is a visible roadmap. How close are we to where we are going? Are we getting closer each month? Are we even headed in the direction I want to go? I want to give them my money. But I also want the features I want.
Quite.
I would supsend my account if it weren't for the fact I use the Compendium in play every week - which of course totally justifies the money I'm spending on DDi. No worries there.
The tools they've given us are great. And I have every confidence that what is coming, when it comes, will be great. But it's so frustrating that we have no idea when and what we're getting next.
I'd love a poll by Wizards to ask us, the community who are paying their wages, what they should be telling us.
I know WOTC has no intention of that. But the rabid fanboys that do nothing but post on these fourms seem to think otherwise.
The answer for that is always the same, no matter what side you are on. Only respond to posts that you want to respond to, and ignore the posts that you don't want to. If there is a poster that is reopeatedly saying things that do nothing but itrritate you and make you want to respond angrily, ignore them. Use either your wetware filter or the one provided by the forum software. Report posts that are flaming. Respond to posts that result in good discussion and bring up good points.
Neither side in this discussion has a claim to being ideal forum posters.
promises shmomises.
fanboys shmanboys.
haters shmaters.
I found the VTT as originally pitched to be a very compelling product. I was sold. I was disappointed in what happened. But even so, I would still jump at the opportunity to become a subscriber to the original vision.
It is really that simple. Build it and I will buy.
Until DDI provides the tools that enable me to actually play D&D online, I'll probably be on the sidelines pushing for the tools I want.
WotC's reticence to talk about anything DDI though is more than disappointing, it is frustrating to the n-th degree. I want to support them. I honestly do. It is much easier to do when there is a visible roadmap. How close are we to where we are going? Are we getting closer each month? Are we even headed in the direction I want to go? I want to give them my money. But I also want the features I want.
For myself, I don't see anything wrong with a person taking this stance. I want to play this way as well. Heck I would push to play this way, even if everyone still showed up at my house, and all used laptops. It's a great visual way to play.
If DDi doesn't offer what you want, no one expects you to buy it.
I want more information too. But I also understand why they don't. And the reasons are not unreasonable. Yes they are reactionary, and yes there are parts we don't know about, and will never know about (Such as how upset Hasbro was over their failure).
Just because I accept this, and understand the reasons, doesn't mean I'm being a WoTC cheerleader. It means I looked at all the available information, weighted it against my personal feelings about the subject and made an informed choice.
I know WOTC has no intention of that. But the rabid fanboys that do nothing but post on these fourms seem to think otherwise.
The answer for that is always the same, no matter what side you are on. Only respond to posts that you want to respond to, and ignore the posts that you don't want to. If there is a poster that is reopeatedly saying things that do nothing but itrritate you and make you want to respond angrily, ignore them. Use either your wetware filter or the one provided by the forum software. Report posts that are flaming. Respond to posts that result in good discussion and bring up good points.
Neither side in this discussion has a claim to being ideal forum posters.
Sorry Mud, but doing that doesn't result in a better forum, because there doesn't seem to be any results from trying to be a good forum poster. You can be a horrible poster and still get the full benefit of the forums. The only person I've ever seen perma banned was guy that kept encouraging illegal activities, and it took a while before WoTC finally did ban him, and he was still able to get back in simply by creating a new account.
The most that happens is a time out for a few days, and peoples posts getting edited or removed. Look above.
Even if you step out of the arguement for a few days, it still goes on. There isn't any reason that would stop someone from being a bad forum poster.
This is the community section of the website. Community is always personal, and trying to get people in a community to not take things personally isn't going to happen. It can't be a community if people don't feel personal about it.
In a flesh and blood community there are consquences for breaking the rules. There are none for rule breaking in this community. As such, it will always degrade down to what we have.
For those that keep saying that its the community's fault for complaining and that when we become mature then wotc will talk with us.
Really? REALLY?!? WOTC are not our parents and we arent 5 year olds.
They are a company that makes products that as customers we make the choice on spending money with them or not.
Now the point could be made that it is now a vicious circle in which both parties are acting immature. In that I agree.
However wotc needs our money more then we need DDI so the onus rests with them to change things.
I don't think I've ever said it's the communities fault.
I've said that WoTC current policy is a reaction to how bad WoTC's failure upset it's customers. And that it's not an unreasonable reaction, all things considered. However if people are still hurt, 2 years later over WoTC failure, and WoTC has tried to make up for that, it's now the customers choice to continue to be hurt or not.
It's not like WoTC hasn't apologized, and hasn't tried to make up for their failure, with what they could do. They have.
If a person can only be made happy with getting the VTT and CV, well that's just not possible for WoTC to do. So they have set up a situation where they can't be made happy, because they are asking for something that WoTC can't do at this time. Nor do they know when they will be able to do it, or even if they can still do it down the road.
If enough customers are going to continue to decide to be hurt and upset, and be as vocal as they can about it, WoTC isn't going to change their policy. Because there is always the chance of a repeat, which the second time around, is going to be even worse.
And as we can see in this thread and others, nothing short of getting what they (in their view) was a promised VTT and CV, and until WoTC gives them that, they aren't budging in their view. That's their choice. No one is stopping them or telling them they can't. Even I've asked for more information on new tools, even starting my own thread.
I was dissappointed that there wasn't something announced at GenCon. I accept that they have the policy of not saying anything till it's actually ready to be released. But to me, saying we will soon be able to say something and that they know exactly when something is going to ship, well just say then, it's clearly getting close enough that the tool is working, being QA, and not going to be cancled.
I think they are playing their hands a little too close, but hey, that's how it is. Clearly all the complaining in the world hasn't changed their policy yet.
But I don't call them names, liars, cheats or other insults. Because that's what 5 years olds do. Nor do I act like my money is so awesome that I need to threaten to take it away unless I get what I want. That's being immature.
I don't get DDi because I think I'm going to eventually get the VTT. I get it because what they offer for the price is amazing and it makes my game easier. I want more tools because it will make my game even easier. The day I stop running my game, I will cancle my account, because I won't need it.
I don't think I've ever said it's the communities fault.
Oh, really?
If enough customers are going to continue to decide to be hurt and upset, and be as vocal as they can about it, WoTC isn't going to change their policy.
Please stop, so they feel that their customers are mature enough to be told things farther in advance.
Because it only takes a few people to change things for everyone else. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't still be going over what happened 2 years ago, would we?
Since those few that reacted badly keep bringing it up, what choice does WoTC have?
That works for people, but not for companies. Especially for companies like WoTC who are owned by companies like Hasbro.
WoTC screws up, and Hasbro says don't let that happen again. Since that handful of people are going to make a stink about ANYTHING WoTC does, good or bad, the less they give them to work with, the less stink they can make. The less they have to hear from parent company about it.
In the corporate world, when the higher ups are upset, they don't care about facts or details, and trouble just flows down and hits everyone, fair or not.
That's how things work, regardless of what people may want. The few spoil it for the many.
I don't think I've ever said it's the communities fault.
Oh, really?
If enough customers are going to continue to decide to be hurt and upset, and be as vocal as they can about it, WoTC isn't going to change their policy.Please stop, so they feel that their customers are mature enough to be told things farther in advance.
Because it only takes a few people to change things for everyone else. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't still be going over what happened 2 years ago, would we?
Since those few that reacted badly keep bringing it up, what choice does WoTC have?
That works for people, but not for companies. Especially for companies like WoTC who are owned by companies like Hasbro.
WoTC screws up, and Hasbro says don't let that happen again. Since that handful of people are going to make a stink about ANYTHING WoTC does, good or bad, the less they give them to work with, the less stink they can make. The less they have to hear from parent company about it.
In the corporate world, when the higher ups are upset, they don't care about facts or details, and trouble just flows down and hits everyone, fair or not.
That's how things work, regardless of what people may want. The few spoil it for the many.
Really.
Because all that is the SAME thing. You left out all the parts where I say what happened was WoTC's fault they over promised, and it's understandable that people got upset.
Those are all about continuing to still bring up what happened two years ago. Like I said, WoTC isn't going to change their policy as long as they feel that it's customers are still upset over what happened.
They have even said, part of their policy of not releasing information comes from how upset they (WoTC) made people with failing to come out with the VTT and other tools. Can't deny that, we have it from their own mouths. (Though it's not the ONLY reason).
Since it's clear that people are still upset over what happened two years ago, why should WoTC suddenly change their policy? If people haven't stopped being upset, then there isn't much reason for WoTC to change how they react to people being upset, is there?
I just want to know what tool(s) they are working on.........The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
We know that they are working on something........Paulo and Mike definitley provided enough hints to come to that conclusion, but what are they working on?
If what Paulo said in the other thread is true, then they are too far to turn back, and would just be a matter of when to release the tool(s).
Then why not tell us the tool(s).......I understand the reason they can't (Mostly from their previous failures...), and I don't think it would make the VTT guys happier, probably the opposite (Since it probably isn't the VTT), but it would go long way into helping the community realize which direction the DDI tools are going.
I would love to see the CV and VTT just spring out of the community like finally entering into the promised land, after a long desert sojurn........but I also know the surveys and direction they want their pen and paper game to go with the digital tools........probably the pinacle of which is an encounter builder that makes planning easier.
I understand the frustration.........but considering the lack of new tools, I would love to see a map builder or a combination of tools for an encounter builder.....
Is it what I truly want.....No, but at this point I'm willing to settle with it.
I'm asking for Wizards to throw us a bone.......it doesn't have to have any juicy meat on it......
I do appreciate all the info they have given us (Paulo especially)........but we just want to know where the tools are heading.
BTW- I'm not a fanboy.....I'm actually pretty pissed with the situation, but I can't deny that I love the CB, and can stay current on the errata and magazines. Which makes my subscription currently worth it.......for now.
well my advice is just enjoy the dungeone magazine, bc if anything was about to drop they would have mentioned it at gencon. i dont expect anything useful any time soon, i dont even think monster builder not having old monster triggers will be fixed anytime soon, if ever
I think you have hit it on the head. The only way to be satisfied with the job that Hasbro is doing is to expect nothing.
"This article is based on an empirical study and describes an approach for managing customer expectations to achieve long-term quality and customer satisfaction in professional services. Professional services are somewhat different from other types of services, and often so are customer expectations. This article describes three types of expectations typical in the professional services context: fuzzy, implicit, and unrealistic. These types of expectations may represent a dangerous pitfall for long-lasting customer satisfaction. Managing expectations is important since service quality and satisfaction result from how well the actual service performance, in other words the service process and outcome, matches the expectations. Much can be done to achieve long-lasting satisfaction with sophisticated expectations management. This article suggests that making fuzzy expectations precise, implicit expectations explicit, and unrealistic expectations realistic, facilitates long-term quality and customer satisfaction. The expectations-management approach introduced in this article is particularly important when the goal is to create long-term customer relationships."
www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?arti...
The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
I have a very strong feeling you are misunderstanding the Beta tag. Monster Builder isn't still in Beta, but the whole Adventure Tools is, and I suspect probably will be until all five of the slots (buttons) are filled in. I can't prove this, and I doubt Paulo can elaborate at this time either, but it makes a lot more sense than a working tool, that has been in production for over a year still being in Beta.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Business majors take classes that address this exact scenario. This link is to a research article. Here is the abstract from the journal article. Think about how it applies to this thread.
"This article is based on an empirical study and describes an approach for managing customer expectations to achieve long-term quality and customer satisfaction in professional services. Professional services are somewhat different from other types of services, and often so are customer expectations. This article describes three types of expectations typical in the professional services context: fuzzy, implicit, and unrealistic. These types of expectations may represent a dangerous pitfall for long-lasting customer satisfaction. Managing expectations is important since service quality and satisfaction result from how well the actual service performance, in other words the service process and outcome, matches the expectations. Much can be done to achieve long-lasting satisfaction with sophisticated expectations management. This article suggests that making fuzzy expectations precise, implicit expectations explicit, and unrealistic expectations realistic, facilitates long-term quality and customer satisfaction. The expectations-management approach introduced in this article is particularly important when the goal is to create long-term customer relationships."
www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?arti...
Sounds interesting, but I'm not going to buy it to read it.
The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
I have a very strong feeling you are misunderstanding the Beta tag. Monster Builder isn't still in Beta, but the whole Adventure Tools is, and I suspect probably will be until all five of the slots (buttons) are filled in. I can't prove this, and I doubt Paulo can elaborate at this time either, but it makes a lot more sense than a working tool, that has been in production for over a year still being in Beta.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Which at their current rate of one tool every year and a half means that it will be out of beta in 2016.
That's a hell of a long beta.
Sounds interesting, but I'm not going to buy it to read it.
I'm not either, but as a business major, I'm pretty sure I can boil it down for you.
About half the stuff you see in Dilbert is true. I had a 3 credit hour class that could have been subtitled "How to Think Like Dilbert's Boss."
Somebody at the top passes out sow's ears. The next guy down starts writing specs for silk purses.
well my advice is just enjoy the dungeone magazine, bc if anything was about to drop they would have mentioned it at gencon. i dont expect anything useful any time soon, i dont even think monster builder not having old monster triggers will be fixed anytime soon, if ever
I agree. I look forward to the new tools, but between the two current tools and the magazines I feel comfortable with what I get. Though, I was the guy who actually paid for the magazines and learned about the tools AFTER. Shows how smart I am.
The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
I have a very strong feeling you are misunderstanding the Beta tag. Monster Builder isn't still in Beta, but the whole Adventure Tools is, and I suspect probably will be until all five of the slots (buttons) are filled in. I can't prove this, and I doubt Paulo can elaborate at this time either, but it makes a lot more sense than a working tool, that has been in production for over a year still being in Beta.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Which at their current rate of one tool every year and a half means that it will be out of beta in 2016.
That's a hell of a long beta.
Well now that's just a little disingenuous. It's more like a year, but honestly I have no problem with Adventure Tools carrying the "beta" tag until the slots are filled. My hope is that it won't take them another 3 years to fill them all in (as we seem to be about to get a new tool, just over a year from the last one). In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the delay had something to do with getting back end data structures set up so that new tools don't take a year to develop, and maybe we'll see them roll out more quickly from here on out.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
I have a very strong feeling you are misunderstanding the Beta tag. Monster Builder isn't still in Beta, but the whole Adventure Tools is, and I suspect probably will be until all five of the slots (buttons) are filled in. I can't prove this, and I doubt Paulo can elaborate at this time either, but it makes a lot more sense than a working tool, that has been in production for over a year still being in Beta.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
If the beta label wasn't there on the Monster Builder, instead of saying that it's still in beta after all this time, I'd just say that it's still beta-quality software after all this time. Some products (like many Google services) retain a beta label for years after they've ceased to be what might reasonably be called a beta, and some products are released as "final" and give the impression that the early adopters are paying to be beta testers. The label isn't important. It is what it is.
Also, since at this point, the Monster Build is the Adventure Tools, so nit-picking over referring to the MB or the AT is just pointless semantics. The Adventure Tools is composed of absolutely nothing BUT the Monster Builder, and we have heard not even a whisper of anything else that will ever be added. Until we do, the terms MB and AT are effectively interchangeable in almost any context.
If the beta label wasn't there on the Monster Builder, instead of saying that it's still in beta after all this time, I'd just say that it's still beta-quality software after all this time. Some products (like many Google services) retain a beta label for years after they've ceased to be what might reasonably be called a beta, and some products are released as "final" and give the impression that the early adopters are paying to be beta testers. The label isn't important. It is what it is.
Also, since at this point, the Monster Build is the Adventure Tools, so nit-picking over referring to the MB or the AT is just pointless semantics. The Adventure Tools is composed of absolutely nothing BUT the Monster Builder, and we have heard not even a whisper of anything else that will ever be added. Until we do, the terms MB and AT are effectively interchangeable in almost any context.
Except the beta label appears nowhere on the Monster Builder itself, so no, it isn't "there on the Monster Builder." Adventure Tools is a shell that "launches" other applications, and that is the only place the beta label can be found...rather conspicuously covering part of the "s" in Tools. I feel that Monster Builder is far from complete, but that doesn't mean I think it is still in beta, or beta-quality. It is a finished product that continues (as all software does) to receive updates and new features (hopefully soon).
Neither do I accept your MB is the AT argument. It is obviously intended to be much more, and we have heard whispers of something else being added as recently as this month. So you are being disingenuous here.
I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this, and wait to see whose opinion turns out to be correct.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
It's easy to say nothing when there is nothing to be said. It's obvious that Wizards has nothing to announce on the DDi tools, and therefore it's in their best interest to say nothing.
Like many people posting here, I also work in Software Development, and we routinely talk about what we are releasing, even in very abstract terms. It's in our best interests as a company to keep the clients interested in what we are developing, even if it's just in the prototype/conceptual phase.
I also work for a software developer and we're just the opposite due to the complexity of our software product. We've learned from experience that although the data is somewhat simple what can and cannot be done with it is a big unknown until we try it, and because of that we don't announce what we're working on until it's done and it's been QA'd to death. Then and only then do we make an announcement.
Given the bugs that WotC has already had to deal with in regards to the CB and the failure of what looked like rock solid products (the Character Visualizer and Dungeon Designer(?) reached the screenshot stage) I can sympathize with them and their stance on announcements. DnD has a lot of combinations and large creative fanbase. Any user tool has to be able to take just about everything the user could do into account.
Just my two cents
The MB is still in Beta, and it has been two years, and all they have for actual tools are the CB and MB.
I have a very strong feeling you are misunderstanding the Beta tag. Monster Builder isn't still in Beta, but the whole Adventure Tools is, and I suspect probably will be until all five of the slots (buttons) are filled in. I can't prove this, and I doubt Paulo can elaborate at this time either, but it makes a lot more sense than a working tool, that has been in production for over a year still being in Beta.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Which at their current rate of one tool every year and a half means that it will be out of beta in 2016.
That's a hell of a long beta.
Well now that's just a little disingenuous. It's more like a year, but honestly I have no problem with Adventure Tools carrying the "beta" tag until the slots are filled. My hope is that it won't take them another 3 years to fill them all in (as we seem to be about to get a new tool, just over a year from the last one). In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the delay had something to do with getting back end data structures set up so that new tools don't take a year to develop, and maybe we'll see them roll out more quickly from here on out.
Regards,
Kalex the Omen
Not really, we're already at a year and three months and I feel safe in assuming that if we were going to have anything more before October/Novermber-ish they would indeed have announced it at GenCon. So I think 'a year and a half' is actually being optimistic.