D&D Insider Subscriber,
Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,The D&DI Team
What exactly am I paying for?
If true, well, dammit.
Edit: Ah. I have group broadcasts blocked. That would explain it.
*sigh*
September is my last month too....h>
I wonder at what point the DDI developers realised how big a job this was going to be! I also wonder whether the coding needs are part of the design and development process - if you resource your digital department for basic data entry, a few small tweaks to UI for things like spellscars or backgrounds, and some extra resources for future products, it's difficult to see how that team can make changes to existing products in a timely fashion if the designers take the game's mechanics in a new direction.
This will be damaging to my already tiny player base for the next season of D&D Encounters. People were counting on an updated Character Builder to make characters for the next season. They won't be very happy either and the level of cyncism directed at WotC is thick enough to cut with a knife. People are still upset about the lack of Dark Sun updates to the CB and several people already quit coming to the Encounters sessions, disgusted.
These guys (WotC) really need to get their act together. I go out of my way to defend them at my FLGS and online but they're making it really difficult to continue supporting them.
Seriously?! It better happen before my sub expires, because with recent quality of Dragon and constant delays I'm not going to renew.
I would say it's a combination of this and Encounters. They want to make people buy the Essentials books for Encounters rather than print out character sheets from the CB. Also, after the really bad articles the past few months, more and more people planned on cancelling after Dark Sun/Essentials hit the CB.
I would say it's a combination of this and Encounters. They want to make people buy the Essentials books for Encounters rather than print out character sheets from the CB. Also, after the really bad articles the past few months, more and more people planned on cancelling after Dark Sun/Essentials hit the CB.
I suspect it's much more a matter of "themes and schools are much harder to implement than we thought" and less a matter of customer retention. If they could get half of the new players in the Encounters program to check out DDI specifically for Encounters, I suspect they'd be thrilled.
This is ****, you know that?
I can only imagine how fast I'd be fired if I was this lax in my project management skills. I get crap when I get things out ON TIME!
In case anyone missed the recent broadcast to the DDI Group, please note the following:D&D Insider Subscriber,
Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Sincerely,The D&DI Team
Thanks for sharing the info
Ugh. I have a lot of patience, but it is definitely starting to wear out...
This is my feeling exactly. Between the mediocrity of the magazines and this delay I'm starting to become somewhat dissapointed...
- What does it mean for those of us who's subscription expires before the update? Its bad enough that D&DI content has been so sparse these last few months and now no updates for Dark Sun materials?
- Its bad enough the updates are usually a month and a half behind anyways. How much longer is the D&DI team going to be allowed to work this way?
- Check your mail system, like others I too never received notification of this.
Well this blows.
- What does it mean for those of us who's subscription expires before the update? Its bad enough that D&DI content has been so sparse these last few months and now no updates for Dark Sun materials?
And what about those who only paid for this month but received no update at all?
I would say it's a combination of this and Encounters. They want to make people buy the Essentials books for Encounters rather than print out character sheets from the CB. Also, after the really bad articles the past few months, more and more people planned on cancelling after Dark Sun/Essentials hit the CB.
I suspect it's much more a matter of "themes and schools are much harder to implement than we thought" and less a matter of customer retention. If they could get half of the new players in the Encounters program to check out DDI specifically for Encounters, I suspect they'd be thrilled.
how long have they known DS/Essentials were coming? they have had months to write the code.
Well this blows.
- What does it mean for those of us who's subscription expires before the update? Its bad enough that D&DI content has been so sparse these last few months and now no updates for Dark Sun materials?
- Its bad enough the updates are usually a month and a half behind anyways. How much longer is the D&DI team going to be allowed to work this way?
- Check your mail system, like others I too never received notification of this.
Well this blows.
- What does it mean for those of us who's subscription expires before the update? Its bad enough that D&DI content has been so sparse these last few months and now no updates for Dark Sun materials?
And what about those who only paid for this month but received no update at all?
It sounds like AL is going to ask about that for people. I suggest we wait and see the results, or people contact CS themselves to see what they say about either extending the account a couple weeks (to the update day, for example) or otherwise compensating people.
If you feel strongly about it, there's no reason not to ask.
I wonder if we'll at least get something to compensate for a lost month?
It sounds like AL is going to ask about that for people. I suggest we wait and see the results, or people contact CS themselves to see what they say about either extending the account a couple weeks (to the update day, for example) or otherwise compensating people.
If you feel strongly about it, there's no reason not to ask.
No immediate result on my end. Definitely, if you feel strongly about it, send an email to Customer Support and see what they say.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
I've already emailed CS about a partial (or full) refund for the month of September. I'm an annual subscriber, so I don't have the option to choose which month I subscribe to. So, when something like this happens, I'm screwed and paying for... What? Not what I am subscribed for (CB, Compendium and ATs updates).
I would recommend everyone who is a D&D Insider email CS and request a refund or additional month. The link to Customer Service is at the bottom of this page.
I would recommend everyone who is a D&D Insider email CS and request a refund or additional month. The link to Customer Service is at the bottom of this page.
Good idea. Done. No vitriol, just requested that my current annual subscription be extended for 1 month at the far end.
So, if you are paying for D&Di and *not* reading the magazines, then, no, you *aren't* getting what you are paying for. If you are paying for D&Di and not getting the CB update for the month but *are* reading the magazines, then you *are* getting what you paid for.
Customer Service will probably tell you the same thing but in a nicer way (I hope.)
The character builder monthly updates are extras which are not (supposedly) accounted for in the subscription cost.
Nah. This is wrong.
My subscription includes:
Improve your characters and campaigns with content, tools, articles, and applications you'll find here at Dungeons & Dragons Insider. Your subscription to D&D Insider includes:
- Dragon and Dungeon Magazines
- D&D Character Builder
- D&D Compendium
- D&D Adventure Tools
- Art and Map Galleries
Updates are a part of the Character Builder/Compendium/Adventure Tools. Therefore, they are part of my subscription.
Thanks for playing!
The character builder monthly updates are extras which are not (supposedly) accounted for in the subscription cost.
Nah. This is wrong.
My subscription includes:
Improve your characters and campaigns with content, tools, articles, and applications you'll find here at Dungeons & Dragons Insider. Your subscription to D&D Insider includes:
- Dragon and Dungeon Magazines
- D&D Character Builder
- D&D Compendium
- D&D Adventure Tools
- Art and Map Galleries
Updates are a part of the Character Builder/Compendium/Adventure Tools. Therefore, they are part of my subscription.
Thanks for playing!
I'll take the role of Devil's Advocate here.
Your subscription includes the Character Builder. You have a fully functioning (aka "unlocked") version of the Character builder.
It doesn't *explicitly* say that you're getting monthly updates (at least, not in what you copied).
------------
That said, perhaps it ~should~ promise "regular" updates (with the intention that these should occur more or less every month, but that for various technical reasons, it may be delayed some months).
Another non-vitriol laced (though I was tempted) request for at least partial refund sent to CS.
For some reason, WOTC seems determined to make starting my Dark Sun campaign as difficult as possible. First they push back the Creature Catalog, Then they push back the update for the tools until the week AFTER I planned to starth the campaign, now they cancel the update entirely. 
Yeah, I can make characters by hand, have monster stats handy by marking appropriate places in books, etc. But I pay WOTC five bucks a month so I don't have to do those things. It irritates the hell out of me, frankly.
Another non-vitriol laced (though I was tempted) request for at least partial refund sent to CS.
For some reason, WOTC seems determined to make starting my Dark Sun campaign as difficult as possible. First they push back the Creature Catalog, Then they push back the update for the tools until the week AFTER I planned to starth the campaign, now they cancel the update entirely.
It isn't canceled. They're still going to have a release with the Dark Sun content. It's just been pushed back (again).
Your subscription includes the Character Builder. You have a fully functioning (aka "unlocked") version of the Character builder.
Nah. Again, if the "unlocked" version was what I was paying for, it'd be the current month's subscription I am paying for. Which means, each month, I am paying for the "unlocked" version of this month's release.
I already paid for those old updates. When I pay for this month, I'm paying the most recent update to the Character Builder. I own the old updates. They are on my computer. I can cancel right now and still have them.
This is what keeps me subscribing. If there is no update, then no subscription. I'm just in a boat where I have paid for a full year's worth of updates in advance.
If they want to skip a month, fine. Give me my money back. Otherwise, I'll stop subscribing.
Another non-vitriol laced (though I was tempted) request for at least partial refund sent to CS.
For some reason, WOTC seems determined to make starting my Dark Sun campaign as difficult as possible. First they push back the Creature Catalog, Then they push back the update for the tools until the week AFTER I planned to starth the campaign, now they cancel the update entirely.
It isn't canceled. They're still going to have a release with the Dark Sun content. It's just been pushed back (again).
It's cancelled for the month of September. I assume it will be in the regularly scheduled October Update (assuming that doesn't get delayed/cancelled too, which I wouldn't take bets on at this point), but that doesn't make me feel one iota better about paying for September.
Seriously?! It better happen before my sub expires, because with recent quality of Dragon and constant delays I'm not going to renew.
I would say it's a combination of this and Encounters. They want to make people buy the Essentials books for Encounters rather than print out character sheets from the CB. Also, after the really bad articles the past few months, more and more people planned on cancelling after Dark Sun/Essentials hit the CB.
Me, I just want the psionic power updates. Too bad they couldn't have just put those in for sept. As it stands, all the psionic characters are running with something like half the class options
There's an alternate universe somewhere, where DDi is the cornerstone of the D&D product line. Where new players are pulled into the game by the shiny of the virtual gamer's table, where gamers actually look forward to the upcoming issues of Dragon and Dungeon because they're always filled chock full of awesome content (and the adventures automatically hook into the virtual gamer's table), and where subscribers to DDi feel like they're getting a fantastic deal on top-notch gaming materials and happily pull out their credit cards when it's time to re-up. (and while I'm at it, in this alternate universe, the website is actually organized in such a way that content is easily accessible, and it doesn't weird out in inexplicable ways all the time)
Sadly, I don't get to play in that universe. In my universe, I'm grudgingly subsidizing a loosely organized and poorly supported collection of software, hoping that one day they'll get the attention they sorely need.
Wizards, you guys need to wake up. Electronic gaming was *THE* future about 5 years ago. Right now you're being subsidized by gamers who grew up with D&D, and to a lesser extent, gamers who were pulled in when 3e D&D hit the scene. But that gravy train is fast pulling into the station. You're competing with the likes of World of Warcraft and other instant gratification eye-candy that you cannot possibly hope to compete with, without a polished and cohesive set of online tools. You don't have the luxury to just have your under-staffed staff update the tools that happened to get finished before it all went to hell. You need a vision of what D&D is going to look like in the electronic space 2 years from now, you need to communicate that vision to your DDi subscribers, and you need to get busy on it right now, with failure NOT being an option. Otherwise, I'm rapidly running out of reasons to justify this expense.
Wizards, you guys need to wake up. Electronic gaming was *THE* future about 5 years ago. Right now you're being subsidized by gamers who grew up with D&D, and to a lesser extent, gamers who were pulled in when 3e D&D hit the scene. But that gravy train is fast pulling into the station. You're competing with the likes of World of Warcraft and other instant gratification eye-candy that you cannot possibly hope to compete with, without a polished and cohesive set of online tools. You don't have the luxury to just have your under-staffed staff update the tools that happened to get finished before it all went to hell. You need a vision of what D&D is going to look like in the electronic space 2 years from now, you need to communicate that vision to your DDi subscribers, and you need to get busy on it right now, with failure NOT being an option. Otherwise, I'm rapidly running out of reasons to justify this expense.
*Clap clap clap*
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
I have not gotten a yes or a no result. What I did get was instructions to advise anyone who feels strongly about it to send an email to CS. If you have feedback, or are frustrated, definitely let them know.
Just to be Clear, there is No guarantee that you will get anything from this.
For instance, the Fighter doesn't really have that many powers now, and they are back to only making basic attacks with his sword, kind of like in the old editions.
I also tend to have a lot of patience. But mine is wearing thin. I just can't figure out why they tried to shoe horn in all the rules changes at once. Priority should be in the release order of the books. There is such a thing as version control that keeps track of the different versions of the program your working on.
The least they could have done is have this month's update have the Psionic Power. Then an update with Dark Sun, then Essentials.
::Sigh::
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
I have not gotten a yes or a no result. What I did get was instructions to advise anyone who feels strongly about it to send an email to CS. If you have feedback, or are frustrated, definitely let them know.
Just to be Clear, there is No guarantee that you will get anything from this.
Likely, if they get enough requests for a refund, they will just say No, since that coule easily bankrupt them. Well, maybe not *bankrupt* them but it will put a huge dent into the budget for projects in the coming months.
Would it be possible for WotC to post a (truthful) report showing the value vs. cost of D&Di since it's been started? That would be interesting to see...
I'm usually not a whiner. If I'm unhappy with a restaurant, I still leave a decent tip but I don't ever go back. Likewise, when I'm paying for a service, I stop paying when I don't see value in it any more. Well I'm starting to not see the value in DDi any more.
There's an alternate universe somewhere, where DDi is the cornerstone of the D&D product line. Where new players are pulled into the game by the shiny of the virtual gamer's table, where gamers actually look forward to the upcoming issues of Dragon and Dungeon because they're always filled chock full of awesome content (and the adventures automatically hook into the virtual gamer's table), and where subscribers to DDi feel like they're getting a fantastic deal on top-notch gaming materials and happily pull out their credit cards when it's time to re-up. (and while I'm at it, in this alternate universe, the website is actually organized in such a way that content is easily accessible, and it doesn't weird out in inexplicable ways all the time)
Sadly, I don't get to play in that universe. In my universe, I'm grudgingly subsidizing a loosely organized and poorly supported collection of software, hoping that one day they'll get the attention they sorely need.
Wizards, you guys need to wake up. Electronic gaming was *THE* future about 5 years ago. Right now you're being subsidized by gamers who grew up with D&D, and to a lesser extent, gamers who were pulled in when 3e D&D hit the scene. But that gravy train is fast pulling into the station. You're competing with the likes of World of Warcraft and other instant gratification eye-candy that you cannot possibly hope to compete with, without a polished and cohesive set of online tools. You don't have the luxury to just have your under-staffed staff update the tools that happened to get finished before it all went to hell. You need a vision of what D&D is going to look like in the electronic space 2 years from now, you need to communicate that vision to your DDi subscribers, and you need to get busy on it right now, with failure NOT being an option. Otherwise, I'm rapidly running out of reasons to justify this expense.
I'm usually not a whiner. If I'm unhappy with a restaurant, I still leave a decent tip but I don't ever go back. Likewise, when I'm paying for a service, I stop paying when I don't see value in it any more. Well I'm starting to not see the value in DDi any more.
There's an alternate universe somewhere, where DDi is the cornerstone of the D&D product line. Where new players are pulled into the game by the shiny of the virtual gamer's table, where gamers actually look forward to the upcoming issues of Dragon and Dungeon because they're always filled chock full of awesome content (and the adventures automatically hook into the virtual gamer's table), and where subscribers to DDi feel like they're getting a fantastic deal on top-notch gaming materials and happily pull out their credit cards when it's time to re-up. (and while I'm at it, in this alternate universe, the website is actually organized in such a way that content is easily accessible, and it doesn't weird out in inexplicable ways all the time)
Sadly, I don't get to play in that universe. In my universe, I'm grudgingly subsidizing a loosely organized and poorly supported collection of software, hoping that one day they'll get the attention they sorely need.
Wizards, you guys need to wake up. Electronic gaming was *THE* future about 5 years ago. Right now you're being subsidized by gamers who grew up with D&D, and to a lesser extent, gamers who were pulled in when 3e D&D hit the scene. But that gravy train is fast pulling into the station. You're competing with the likes of World of Warcraft and other instant gratification eye-candy that you cannot possibly hope to compete with, without a polished and cohesive set of online tools. You don't have the luxury to just have your under-staffed staff update the tools that happened to get finished before it all went to hell. You need a vision of what D&D is going to look like in the electronic space 2 years from now, you need to communicate that vision to your DDi subscribers, and you need to get busy on it right now, with failure NOT being an option. Otherwise, I'm rapidly running out of reasons to justify this expense.
the owner told me there would be more interest in essentials encounters. well guess what, im not going until they fix this crap, and im going to tell other players not to bother w it anyway. the classes are BAD ENOUGH without getting stuck w a crappy pregen or having to buy the abominable POS to make a pc.
dark sun, forget about it, nobody wanted to buy a 40 dollar fall apart book just to make a pc. and nobody wants to start a campaign in it bc nobody wants to buy it but the dm. an update would have changed this. players could have gotten to really see what the pcs could do
FIRE whoevers idea it was to sand bag all this together, they should have known they werent even gonna come close. put in the psionics at least, you KNOW how to do that
FIRE these idiots
PS FIX THE DAMN MONSTER BUILDER ALREADY, even the tools we have dont work FOR CRAP
I was going to play in a DS campaign next week. I was eagerly waiting on the CB update because frankly, with all the erratas, uptades and whatnot, my books are getting useless. I rely more and more on my CB to create character because i HATE to flip through lots of books and erratas to make my character. I own the books, why do i have to wait a full month to get my CB update ?
And then, there's the delay... oh well. So much for getting new players in my game.
I wonder if WotC know they are hurting themselves ? I got a group of 6 players who used to play 2nd ED. Dark Sun that were interested in playing in the 4th ed of DS... with the delay, and knowning them, im pretty sure this is going to be a no-go on their part.
Thats 6 people who never played 4th ed. and were willing to buy some of the books. I guess its not really important for WotC. After all my friends havent played any dnd in the last 6 years... There's no need to augment the player base, right?
*sigh*
At least im going to be a player for once in another DS campaign... someday.
dark sun, forget about it, nobody wanted to buy a 40 dollar fall apart book just to make a pc. and nobody wants to start a campaign in it bc nobody wants to buy it but the dm. an update would have changed this. players could have gotten to really see what the pcs could do
Not true. everyone in my group bought the DS campaign book and we started our DS campaign last weekend. It was awesome. We all want the CB update for DS and PP, but we are perfectly happy starting a campaign with just the books.
Its really annoying that they can't get their sith together so the updates can happen on schedule, but its not game breaking.
It occurs to me that the biggest problem at WotC with regards to DDi is that they are stuck in the mindset of a book publisher, but they really need to add some "software publisher" feats to their build.
dark sun, forget about it, nobody wanted to buy a 40 dollar fall apart book just to make a pc. and nobody wants to start a campaign in it bc nobody wants to buy it but the dm. an update would have changed this. players could have gotten to really see what the pcs could do
Not true. everyone in my group bought the DS campaign book and we started our DS campaign last weekend. It was awesome. We all want the CB update for DS and PP, but we are perfectly happy starting a campaign with just the books.
Its really annoying that they can't get their sith together so the updates can happen on schedule, but its not game breaking.
not true for you, but absolutely true for me. there is zero interest, the store is a ghost town on encounters and packed for any other demo, there were some people for the red box gameday but dark sun pregen encoutners? not a soul but me and a guy i brought with me. i used to blame summer bc im in a college town but its not summer anymore. i think more people would have been interested if they were able to build their own pcs without having to lay down 40 bucks (most expensive book they ever made? why?)
They can't even fully support the tools they have already released...
Combine this with the way that the quality of the magazines has been dropping over the last couple of months and I would say it is rather obvious that Hasbro/WotC have no intention of putting in the resources needed to advance or even maintain the current system.
I'm starting to wish I could just cancel the remainder of my subscription for a refund.
Again, wondering why the design and development for the CB is not being done PRIOR to book release, they should have known about this problem before either of them hit the stores.
I can only imagine how fast I'd be fired if I was this lax in my project management skills. I get crap when I get things out ON TIME!
I'm wondering how much of a headstart that the programmers got letting them know that there is now themes & completely new build design. This must be a ***** to code into the existing CB.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
Ask away, but you were the one in another thread pointing out how the EULA clearly states that updates are not guarenteed. I'm just saying, a free month would be great. Chances are they may even do it. But if they don't they are within their rights. As you pointed out.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
Ask away, but you were the one in another thread pointing out how the EULA clearly states that updates are not guarenteed. I'm just saying, a free month would be great. Chances are they may even do it. But if they don't they are within their rights. As you pointed out.
Good point, I'd forgotten about the EULA terms. I did email CS about it (and they've escalated the request) but in light of that I'm betting they'll say "sorry, but no." Doesn't hurt to ask, I suppose.
In any case, that month wouldn't even happen until August 2011, so I'll probably have forgotten by then.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
Ask away, but you were the one in another thread pointing out how the EULA clearly states that updates are not guarenteed. I'm just saying, a free month would be great. Chances are they may even do it. But if they don't they are within their rights. As you pointed out.
Good point, I'd forgotten about the EULA terms. I did email CS about it (and they've escalated the request) but in light of that I'm betting they'll say "sorry, but no." Doesn't hurt to ask, I suppose.
In any case, that month wouldn't even happen until August 2011, so I'll probably have forgotten by then.
Forgot what?
OMG, that squirrel has a fluffy tail!
Lets go ride bikes.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
Ask away, but you were the one in another thread pointing out how the EULA clearly states that updates are not guarenteed. I'm just saying, a free month would be great. Chances are they may even do it. But if they don't they are within their rights. As you pointed out.
Here's my stance:
The Character Builder is not an "online tool". It's an offline tool that gets updated monthly (allegedly) with new content. I have the tool right now with all the up to date content on my computer. If I were a monthly subscriber, I could stop subscribing and use that tool forever. I've paid for the content.
To get new content, what do I have to do? I have to subscribe and then update. What is the purpose of the CB and ATs? So, you have all the currently released content in an easy-to-use tool.
So, while the "EULA" may be ambiguus - it is certainly part of the subscription package (because, as we've stated earlier, I'm not paying to download the CB, I'm paying to download the latest update), it certainly impacts my subscription status.
If WotC wants me to renew, they'll put out updates every month. If not, I'll stop subscribing (no new content, no need for me to shell out $$$ every month). If they get behind one month, give me a free month at the end of my subscription and we'll call it even. Otherwise, goodbye subscription!
I don't mind waiting for new tools. I don't care about news on new tools. Get those done when you can. Tell me about it when you do. Whatever.
I do care about giving me my regularly scheduled update to my existing tools. Otherwise, you're taking my money for what? Access to a tool I already have downloaded and updated? No thanks.
I work with some databases and programming the interfaces to them and i know what its like to be programming an ever changing program. I hate it. So I sympathize with the DDI developers.
I don't sympathize with them at all. WOTC knew that dark Sun and Essensials was coming at this time.
Alot of people say that because books have to go to the publisher to meet a date months before the street date. Thats why WOTC could not change the ads for DDi in the back of the 4th ed core books in time. So WOTC knew this was coming for awhile.
WOTC should have planed for the DDI updates better. They already pushed this update back once. It was suposted to come on Sept. 21. Noe they push it back again. Some people's subs run out this month and won't get any updates. But WOTC is still charging them for this month. No wonder people are PO'ed.
Sweet. This means we get a partial refund for this month right?
hahahahahahaMy sub is over next month, and I'm not subscribing until massive changes are made to DDI.. I've said it before in other threads, so I won't go into it again.
Difficulty in reprogramming a database may be a valid excuse, but it cannot be due to release dates. I see pictures of unreleased (but printed) products in various WotC folks Twitter feeds MONTHS before a product gets out. The raw data must be available even earlier than those proofs are handed out in the office.
My sub is over next month, and I'm not subscribing until massive changes are made to DDI.. I've said it before in other threads, so I won't go into it again.
Anecdote:
While at GenCon, I got to work in the Wizards Booth for a little while. On the shelf was a boxed set of Gamma World - MONTHS before it's release.
I asked permission and opened up this beauty. The box was the full retail box. The rules booklet was the full however-many pages booklet.
Or so I thought. Only the first chapter of the booklet was printed ("Gamma world is a futuristic game. . . . blah blah blah"). All the fluff, none of the crunch. 90% of the books pages were completely blank.
Point:
Just because WotC has the artwork, title, and on-sale date of a product doesn't mean it's done 6 months, or even 3 months in advance. The fluff content is the easy stuff to produce, and easy to have ready for marketing WAY in advance.
Others in the industry can probably give better guidelines on what the publishing lead-time is. But just because you see a product on WotC's Products page, or on Amazon 6+ months in advance, doesn't mean it's done.
Point:
Just because WotC has the artwork, title, and on-sale date of a product doesn't mean it's done 6 months, or even 3 months in advance. The fluff content is the easy stuff to produce, and easy to have ready for marketing WAY in advance.
Others in the industry can probably give better guidelines on what the publishing lead-time is. But just because you see a product on WotC's Products page, or on Amazon 6+ months in advance, doesn't mean it's done.
But there is a fix amount of time between any book leaving developement and entering printing segment and another one before delivery to the shops.
The moment a product is ready for printing, it is also ready to be included into programms like the CB.
I cant say how long this may be in days/weeks, but my commom sense tells me, a team of skilled programmers is able to add the "crunch" content to an existing tool in a few days at most.
The main reason these updates arent ready yet, is most likely the fact, that production costs are kept at a minimum. Therefor fewer people are working on this content for not as long and hard as they could if they were paid more money.
Dont get me wrong, i dont mind if they dont want to spend more money into these things, especially if they were allready payed, but the least thing i expect is information on this in time and with a deadline that wont be delayed again.
A lack of information is the main DDI issue and it could be solved with almost no additional costs.
I don't have a strong opinion about this one, but it is a bummer that they didn't anticipate. I wouldn't sweat too much unless they delay into late October, as that might mean they don't have the technical staff to the get the job done. I know the cutbacks have been heavy the last couple years.
My sub's about to renew, and I'm going to let it. It's still worth the money to me to save the time in creating characters and critters, especially as the game grows. Sure would be nice to see the online stuff funded though...some day.
I intend to ask about getting an extra month added to active subscriptions... I don't know what results, if any, I'll get, but I will at least be asking...
Ask away, but you were the one in another thread pointing out how the EULA clearly states that updates are not guarenteed. I'm just saying, a free month would be great. Chances are they may even do it. But if they don't they are within their rights. As you pointed out.
Here's my stance:
The Character Builder is not an "online tool". It's an offline tool that gets updated monthly (allegedly) with new content. I have the tool right now with all the up to date content on my computer. If I were a monthly subscriber, I could stop subscribing and use that tool forever. I've paid for the content.
To get new content, what do I have to do? I have to subscribe and then update. What is the purpose of the CB and ATs? So, you have all the currently released content in an easy-to-use tool.
So, while the "EULA" may be ambiguus - it is certainly part of the subscription package (because, as we've stated earlier, I'm not paying to download the CB, I'm paying to download the latest update), it certainly impacts my subscription status.
If WotC wants me to renew, they'll put out updates every month. If not, I'll stop subscribing (no new content, no need for me to shell out $$$ every month). If they get behind one month, give me a free month at the end of my subscription and we'll call it even. Otherwise, goodbye subscription!
I don't mind waiting for new tools. I don't care about news on new tools. Get those done when you can. Tell me about it when you do. Whatever.
I do care about giving me my regularly scheduled update to my existing tools. Otherwise, you're taking my money for what? Access to a tool I already have downloaded and updated? No thanks.
Because hardnose attitudes and attempts to force your view onto an EULA always works, and always makes a company buckle. Your first instinc, contact CS was the best and correct one.
What's got a burr under my saddle is simply that this is one more thing. It's always something with DDi. First we had to settle for a fraction of the tools we were promised. Then we had to settle for slower updates because the core team had been whittled away to almost nothing. Then we had to live with a broken monster designer that seems to have no fix within anyone's lifetime. Then we had to deal with ever-diminishing content in the two magazines. And now we're being told that the content update--one of the very few things that we could pretty much depend on with DDi--is being delayed. Which for most people means either not getting this update at all, or forking out another $10 that we wouldn't have had to fork out in the first place.
I just don't care what the reasons are anymore. If this were a world class product that I felt was delivering on what it promised, I could forgive the occasional missed update, because hey, sometimes stuff happens. But this is just yet another in a long chain of disappointments with this product.
Speculating as to why the deadline was missed (incompetence, poor planning, sunspot activity, whatever) seems to me to be missing the point.
What's got a burr under my saddle is simply that this is one more thing. It's always something with DDi. First we had to settle for a fraction of the tools we were promised. Then we had to settle for slower updates because the core team had been whittled away to almost nothing. Then we had to live with a broken monster designer that seems to have no fix within anyone's lifetime. Then we had to deal with ever-diminishing content in the two magazines. And now we're being told that the content update--one of the very few things that we could pretty much depend on with DDi--is being delayed. Which for most people means either not getting this update at all, or forking out another $10 that we wouldn't have had to fork out in the first place.
I just don't care what the reasons are anymore. If this were a world class product that I felt was delivering on what it promised, I could forgive the occasional missed update, because hey, sometimes stuff happens. But this is just yet another in a long chain of disappointments with this product.
+1. It's obvious that quality of DDI is a very low priority for Wizards. The FREE Magic website has more support and consistncy than the PAID DDI one.
Should Wizards ever get their act together and update the CB with the material I use to run my Dark Sun campaign, I may re-sub. Maybe.
Yes, themes add another layer of complexity, most likely an additional tab on the CB or a somewhat modified Backgrounds tab. But really, in terms of rules it's not much more complex than Skill Powers were... you get one bonus power at level one, but then the rest are just swappable with your regular powers as you level. It's shoehorning in one extra encounter power at level one based on a choice not unlike selecting a background, and then a database update of your selectable power list for another 9 levels.
I can't help but feel they could have done that easily and on time, given that much larger updates have taken place for things like the PHB 3 (power points, no encounter powers for augmentable classes, skill powers, etc.) I can't help but feel that this is because they made a conscious decision to combine Essentials with the update for Dark Sun and the rest because they want us all to be using Essentials. The Dark Sun changes are additive, not subtractive or exceptions-based, and nothing that hasn't been done before.
The real complexity has to come in trying to put builds on existing classes that don't have powers in the traditional sense, that use a variety of subsystems that sound like the button-mashing style of play (for those that once compared 4e to WoW, and are now happy with Essentials, you do realize that if your analogy was true, then you're now not even playing WoW but a console game with a few buttons, right?)
I'm sorry if that sounds like "edition wars" but let's be honest about the real reason why this delay is taking place: you got a lot of people interested in Dark Sun, and you want to push other stuff on them as well... stuff a lot of them didn't want. Which is complete and utter BS, Wizards.
It's hard not to notice that the post count for Dark Sun has grown faster than I can remember for any other 4e setting, and is pretty big compared to settings that have been out for one or two years. It's brought back a lot of gamers.
It's also hard not to notice that a lot of people have been saying for months that they intended to drop DDi before the Essentials update came in.
So it's very, very hard not to feel like we're paying for a month with little to no content because they want to cram a product down our throats that a good number of us don't want or are only mildly curious about.
If you want to give us little choice but to try it, then you should be the one that has to buy it. Not us. Pay for your poor attitude towards your customers by not charging us for October.
I work with some databases and programming the interfaces to them and i know what its like to be programming an ever changing program. I hate it. So I sympathize with the DDI developers.
I don't sympathize with them at all. WOTC knew that dark Sun and Essensials was coming at this time.
Alot of people say that because books have to go to the publisher to meet a date months before the street date. Thats why WOTC could not change the ads for DDi in the back of the 4th ed core books in time. So WOTC knew this was coming for awhile.
WOTC should have planed for the DDI updates better. They already pushed this update back once. It was suposted to come on Sept. 21. Noe they push it back again. Some people's subs run out this month and won't get any updates. But WOTC is still charging them for this month. No wonder people are PO'ed.
Thats fine you dont have to, I dont know what field you work in, I was just saying that I know what it is like to be working on something that the goals change by the day. Especially when the people want to do things in such unorthodox ways that make no sense except to the person who wants it to happen.
So either way, am I disappointed? yes. Am I frothing at the mouth angry? No.
I feel bad for the DDI team who has to code all that garbage.
My advice to WotC: leave the core mechanics alone and focus on producing new content (within the parameters of those core mechanics) such as new classes/builds, magic items, monsters, adventures, settings, etc. Release it in the digital magazines with occasional printed supplements if you must. Let the DDI team worry about creating a digital package worth getting excited about (with the unavoidable regular content updates - but without having to reformat everything because someone decided to rewrite the rules... again).
They should definitely extend everyone's subscriptions by a month (including the 1 month only subscribers). I think that's very unlikely, but I hope I am wrong.
1) I would be honestly very surprised if they gave out refunds for the month.
1a) Could they only give out refunds to those who specifically requested them? Perhaps, but then you have a significant expenditure of manhours as a wotc employee has to wade through all those angry emails.
1b) Since everybody got stiffed, why not refund everybody? While much easier to code, consider this: What happens to DDI if they lose 1/12th of their annual income? Does anybody honestly think a company would take this step if it was not legally obligated to?
To paraphrase 'fight club'... "we estimate the number of people who will quit because of this. And if that number is less than 1/12th of the subscribers, we do not issue the refund."
As others have pointed out, wotc is not legally obligated to refund your money.
2) To those who say that "I already own the CB. I could quit now and still own the CB. I pay for updates." You are wrong. You pay for the CB. Updates are not obligatory. Read the EULA. If you terminate your contract, you are legally obligated to delete your electronic copies of the CB. I'm not saying wotc cares whether or not you do. (I did not.) I am just pointing out wotc's obligations, which do NOT include updating your CB ever again, no matter how much you pay them.
3) You are going to get the same amount of 'update' to your CB, just in a different month. CB updates are based on the books. The books are not going to get published any slower because of this. If you are on an extended contract, this does not affect the quantity of what you receive at all, merely the timing.
4) I, for one, was not satisfied with what Wotc gave me for my money long ago, and cancelled long ago. Lots of people have said, to me and to others, "good bye and good riddance, we're perfectly happy with what we get for our money." To those who have said that, I can only point and laugh.
5) It was strongly hinted that upcoming information on new tools (something which might entice me to resubscribe) was coming 'soon', and that 'soon' was september 21. Any word from those who did the hinting that 9/21 either still is or is no longer a day on which we can reasonably hope for info would be appreciated.
Or is the definition of 'soon' to expand to include financial quarters?
4) I, for one, was not satisfied with what Wotc gave me for my money long ago, and cancelled long ago. Lots of people have said, to me and to others, "good bye and good riddance, we're perfectly happy with what we get for our money."
I came to check on a possible one month sub to include the Dark Sun and Essentials material, glad I looked before dropping any money. I was set to resubscribe and be ready for the 9/21 update but it looks like I get to wait a little longer to give them any more money.
Or is the definition of 'soon' to expand to include financial quarters?
+1
I have to agree that he timing just happening to coincide with the beginning of the quarter feels "wrong". In sales we call it "sandbagging".
It's unacceptable. Excuses are for people who fail to get the job done. It's fine that some people are still satisfied. I won't tell other people how to feel. Myself though, I'm as far from satisfied as one can be.
EDIT: Just FTR, I have just submitted a message to Customer Service. I didn't demand a refund or anything, just expressed my displeasure in as reasonable a manner as I could.
Not surprising, this has been a busy month. We have Psionic Power and Dark Sun and a new huge book of monsters. It's arguably one of the busier months for content, with much of it new. The Character Builder wasn't exactly designed to accommodate new things like Themes. They should have left some room in the code for modular additions like that but I imagine in the rush to get the CB finished this slipped.
It's not going to get any better. They're delaying for a month to get the books released last month in the Compendium and builder. But they're probably not going to have the books for this month finished (there's a lot of new content in DDE as well). Catching-up when you fall behind is really, really hard. Unless they really buckle down and push to get everything done by next month they could be perpetually delayed.
The worst part ties into this thread. It's renewal season. All the people who signed-up for DDI two years ago and then renewed for another year will suddenly have to chose to renew... or not. It's the time when WotC has to show people that that DDI is going strong and that there's still plenty of reasons to subscribe.
And... instead we get the fourth delay this year. And a back-to-back delay with the memories of the MM3 delay still fresh. Really, their update schedual has been skewed for five months since the format change of MM3 (and despite while the content might be in flux three months in advance, the format of the statblocks had been fixed for a while so they have plenty of time to start fixing).
This is going to hurt.
I'm not renewing.
While I greatly enjoy the magazines and like the slightly fluffier feel of the new articles, I pay for more than just the articles and haven't really gotten my full money's worth. In fact, it feels like I've wasted three payments especially since I used to have a working Monster Builder and now have a broken Monster Builder that erases my triggers, resistances, and other information requiring constant re-writing and editing in Word.
And the Updates. I'm really tired of the Updates. I honestly might just re-up for one month after all the D&D Essentials crap is done and get all the finished rules and then just call it. Decree the game as set from that point for my players and run out of the Rules Compendium.
1) the most obvious; if you don't like the service don't pay for it. Nobody is forcing you. What's the price of a years subscription? The cost of a computer game? The magazines and articles are worth it for me. The toys are a nice bonus.
2) why didn't the naysayers see this coming and not pay for it? Dark Sun would have been a big enough update. Add in essentials and it gets even more complicated. Essentials has a different character sheet (which needs a bit of work) and a different way of choosing powers which makes it even more awkward.
3) What other RPG company provides this kind of online support? DDi are trail blazing with their character builder so there are bound to be problems.
I'll add a caveat here; I don't play Dark Sun so I'm not chomping at the bit for it and the same goes for Eberron. I've not bought the PHB3 or MM3 so I'm not screaming for that either. As for the rest, I have a pen and paper and am more than happy to go old school.
Anyway that's enough mutterings from me. Please continue with the whining I'm going to go make my self a cup of tea.
I won't blame anyone but WOTC for this. I feel that WOTC has done everything wrong handling DDi. I look at it as a business model as NOT to deal with the customers.
I'm gonna see what happens (since I'm on a three-month term anyway), but the last few months have not at all been worth the money. I don't think I will be renewing.
I find this the best way to get the updates.
I don't have the most up to date stuff then, but I have what I need.
I work with some databases and programming the interfaces to them and i know what its like to be programming an ever changing program. I hate it. So I sympathize with the DDI developers.
There are a number of us that have worked in the software and programming industry.
Delays and problems come up I agree that there is no avoiding that.
However there is a point in time that when enough delays come up you have to step back and ask yourself as a company "wtf are we doing wrong and how do we fix it?"
Still its a sad thing to see. I wonder if the big announcement for Sept 21st will also be delayed.
2) To those who say that "I already own the CB. I could quit now and still own the CB. I pay for updates." You are wrong. You pay for the CB. Updates are not obligatory. Read the EULA. If you terminate your contract, you are legally obligated to delete your electronic copies of the CB. I'm not saying wotc cares whether or not you do. (I did not.) I am just pointing out wotc's obligations, which do NOT include updating your CB ever again, no matter how much you pay them.
This may be true legally, but practically it's not.
Secondly, I don't give a flying F about WotC's legal responsibilities. The restaurant I go to isn't legally obligated to hook me up with a free meal when it takes an hour to get to my table. But, they should because if not, I don't come back. I'm a customer. It's called customer service for a reason.
If they want my subscription, they'll address this issue. Plain and simple.
This is quite literally an issue that could mean a cancelled subscription for me. I haven't felt that way up until this point. I'm quite happy with most of the offerings. Could the CB have more customization? Sure. Could the Monster Builder have some bugs fixed? Sure. Could the magazines have some more and better content? Sure. But, overall, I'm quite satisfied.
This issue, however, is something that doesn't make me satisfied. I am addressing that concern with WotC CS at the moment. I'll notify you guys on what transpires.
This thread reinforces what I believe. Thank you.
This thread reiterates what I once thought to understand about a belief in opinion and ambiguity. Or at least I think it might.
2) To those who say that "I already own the CB. I could quit now and still own the CB. I pay for updates." You are wrong. You pay for the CB. Updates are not obligatory. Read the EULA. If you terminate your contract, you are legally obligated to delete your electronic copies of the CB. I'm not saying wotc cares whether or not you do. (I did not.) I am just pointing out wotc's obligations, which do NOT include updating your CB ever again, no matter how much you pay them.
This may be true legally, but practically it's not.
It's really not even legally true that you have to remove the software when you let your subscription expire. The EULA says Wizards may require you to remove it, not that you must. It's legal cover for Wizards, not a demand that you remove the software.
2) To those who say that "I already own the CB. I could quit now and still own the CB. I pay for updates." You are wrong. You pay for the CB. Updates are not obligatory. Read the EULA. If you terminate your contract, you are legally obligated to delete your electronic copies of the CB. I'm not saying wotc cares whether or not you do. (I did not.) I am just pointing out wotc's obligations, which do NOT include updating your CB ever again, no matter how much you pay them.
This may be true legally, but practically it's not.
It's really not even legally true that you have to remove the software when you let your subscription expire. The EULA says Wizards may require you to remove it, not that you must. It's legal cover for Wizards, not a demand that you remove the software.
Good point. Thanks.
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
You were seriously angry? Ok.
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
I'm still waiting on the billing specialists to get back to me. I'd be happy with an extra month (since I'm a yearly subscriber).
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
Interesting. My customer support reply was pretty much a template, "we take your concerns seriously, we will forward this on, blah blah." Nothing else.
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
Interesting. My customer support reply was pretty much a template, "we take your concerns seriously, we will forward this on, blah blah." Nothing else.
That's the first step. Then, they'll email you back asking you to verify your account info. Then, they'll forward it to the billing specialists. Then, I assume they decide whether to refund you or not.
It's not impossible, the team did a great job of updating all the MM1 and MM2 monsters while adding the MM3 monsters (excluding the aforementioned breaking of the program, which will hopefully also be fixed).
That said, I'm going to repost this:
I'm usually not a whiner. If I'm unhappy with a restaurant, I still leave a decent tip but I don't ever go back. Likewise, when I'm paying for a service, I stop paying when I don't see value in it any more. Well I'm starting to not see the value in DDi any more.
There's an alternate universe somewhere, where DDi is the cornerstone of the D&D product line. Where new players are pulled into the game by the shiny of the virtual gamer's table, where gamers actually look forward to the upcoming issues of Dragon and Dungeon because they're always filled chock full of awesome content (and the adventures automatically hook into the virtual gamer's table), and where subscribers to DDi feel like they're getting a fantastic deal on top-notch gaming materials and happily pull out their credit cards when it's time to re-up. (and while I'm at it, in this alternate universe, the website is actually organized in such a way that content is easily accessible, and it doesn't weird out in inexplicable ways all the time)
Sadly, I don't get to play in that universe. In my universe, I'm grudgingly subsidizing a loosely organized and poorly supported collection of software, hoping that one day they'll get the attention they sorely need.
Wizards, you guys need to wake up. Electronic gaming was *THE* future about 5 years ago. Right now you're being subsidized by gamers who grew up with D&D, and to a lesser extent, gamers who were pulled in when 3e D&D hit the scene. But that gravy train is fast pulling into the station. You're competing with the likes of World of Warcraft and other instant gratification eye-candy that you cannot possibly hope to compete with, without a polished and cohesive set of online tools. You don't have the luxury to just have your under-staffed staff update the tools that happened to get finished before it all went to hell. You need a vision of what D&D is going to look like in the electronic space 2 years from now, you need to communicate that vision to your DDi subscribers, and you need to get busy on it right now, with failure NOT being an option. Otherwise, I'm rapidly running out of reasons to justify this expense.
I have to agree. I had the original digital tools (the CD-ROM Core Rules with character builder, unparalleled equipment manager, mapper, and more) released back in 1996. That was innovative.
I'm sorry, but a character builder in 2008 is just not new. It wasn't new with the digital tools designed to release with 3e either.
DDI is just some secondary forgotten aspect of 4e. Sad given all the advertising and much of the early hype was related to these tools.
Here's an example of how WotC is just failing. The Red Box. It's design is twofold, lure back old players with rules tweaked to respond to criticism of 4e with a nostalgia packaged product. And bring in brand new players.
But, all those brand new players are digital kids. They're ten, eleven, twelve, and thirteen. They're not going to read through the full paragraphs of the red box Choose Your Own Adventure. They're not going to drop $20 on a box they can use once for a single level.
The Red Box should have been a digital initiative and part of DDI. The choose your own should have been a big flash/hypertext adventure with more options than could be handled in a book with a page count limit, leading into any of the DDE classes including the druid and warlord and such. Then, when done, it would build your character and give you a free adventure to print out and play with friends while also telling you exactly which books you need to continue.
But that isn't business thinking. Firstly, it's free and it's hard to make people pay for a demo. Secondly, they probably started on the Red Box path when they decided to release a new Starter Set. So the thinking was already "in the box", the eventual product had to be a set for starting out. If anyone risked their job to raise their hand and ask "isn't using the a strategy to bring people into the game thirty years ago a little, well, dated?" would have been ignored.
The Red Box should have been a digital initiative and part of DDI.
Gotta disagree here. I actually like the Red Box format for the new starter set. Am I happy with the contents? From what I've heard, not exactly.
But, I'd much rather have this boxed set I can pick up for my wife's nephew for Christmas and put under the tree than be like, "Hey man, you should check out this website!"
Would it have been good for WotC to supplement Red Box with some digital stuff? Absolutely!
"Once you're done with this Red Box adventure, come to Wizards.com/dnd and download a follow-up adventure!"
Now, they're going to get that adventure, exposure to the tools and other content, and maybe even make a community profile or whatever. They can see other books, etc... And, they're off to a good start.
Here's an example of how WotC is just failing. The Red Box. It's design is twofold, lure back old players with rules tweaked to respond to criticism of 4e with a nostalgia packaged product. And bring in brand new players.
But, all those brand new players are digital kids. They're ten, eleven, twelve, and thirteen. They're not going to read through the full paragraphs of the red box Choose Your Own Adventure. They're not going to drop $20 on a box they can use once for a single level.
The Red Box should have been a digital initiative and part of DDI. The choose your own should have been a big flash/hypertext adventure with more options than could be handled in a book with a page count limit, leading into any of the DDE classes including the druid and warlord and such. Then, when done, it would build your character and give you a free adventure to print out and play with friends while also telling you exactly which books you need to continue.
But that isn't business thinking. Firstly, it's free and it's hard to make people pay for a demo. Secondly, they probably started on the Red Box path when they decided to release a new Starter Set. So the thinking was already "in the box", the eventual product had to be a set for starting out. If anyone risked their job to raise their hand and ask "isn't using the a strategy to bring people into the game thirty years ago a little, well, dated?" would have been ignored.
The problem is that WotC is still caught up thinking they are a book publishing company. Their thought processes revolve around distribution channels and dead trees. For example, you can't even view sample pages of the Player's Handbook at Amazon, and there's no Kindle version of any D&D materials. (I don't own a Kindle, but I'm pretty sure people would pay for a Kindle version of the core books.) They need to step up and embrace technology, or they're eventually going to be buried by it.
fire these morons and put someone else in their positions, this is freaking pathetic
Yes the obvious solution is to remove people that have learned the system and replace them with trainees.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
fire these morons and put someone else in their positions, this is freaking pathetic
Yes the obvious solution is to remove people that have learned the system and replace them with trainees.
um if they were such experts on the system they wouldnt throw out arbitrary dates that they miss by a month or more. if they were actually experts on the system all the more reason to blow them out bc then they have no excuse. what other business runs that way? answer none that stay in business. when was the last time you were given an extra month on something that was due? ive gotta be in the wrong business if that is the norm where you work.but maybe youre right lets just play the forgive game and hold nobody accountable for anything, thats a sure way to improve the situation right?
...
Would it have been good for WotC to supplement Red Box with some digital stuff? Absolutely!
"Once you're done with this Red Box adventure, come to Wizards.com/dnd and download a follow-up adventure!"
...
If I recall correctly, they did add an insert with a website to get another solo adventure. I might have to check that when I get home.
So they are doing some stuff, but I also agree they way behind the curve on digitial stuff.
fire these morons and put someone else in their positions, this is freaking pathetic
Yes the obvious solution is to remove people that have learned the system and replace them with trainees.
um if they were such experts on the system they wouldnt throw out arbitrary dates that they miss by a month or more. if they were actually experts on the system all the more reason to blow them out bc then they have no excuse. what other business runs that way? answer none that stay in business. when was the last time you were given an extra month on something that was due? ive gotta be in the wrong business if that is the norm where you work.but maybe youre right lets just play the forgive game and hold nobody accountable for anything, thats a sure way to improve the situation right?
You don't know the date they gave was arbitrary. You don't know why the update was pushed back.
Stuff happens. Every business runs this way. You set a date, you evaluate the progress, you adjust as needed. Business that STAY in business do this, rather then just meet a date to say they meet it, and then try and back fix issues.
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
I got the same response to my request, and I'm satisfied with it.
You don't know the date they gave was arbitrary. You don't know why the update was pushed back.
Stuff happens. Every business runs this way. You set a date, you evaluate the progress, you adjust as needed. Business that STAY in business do this, rather then just meet a date to say they meet it, and then try and back fix issues.
Sure, stuff happens. I think the difference between a companies with good or bad customer service is how they deal with it. Trevor's response was unapologetic. That's what companies that don't care about their customers do. I'm more upset at my treatment as a paying customer than at a lack of update.
It comes across as, "if you don't like it, buy the books," even if that's not the case.
What I would have liked to have seen was:
1.) an apology post from someone taking responsibility for the failure
2.) a description of what's being done to prevent this happening in the future.
3.) an acknowledgement of the most effected products (encounters comes to mind) and some bonus material or suggestions with how users can prepare for these events
But please, don't use the same tack as my cable company or you're just going to burn customer goodwill.
You don't know the date they gave was arbitrary. You don't know why the update was pushed back.
Stuff happens. Every business runs this way. You set a date, you evaluate the progress, you adjust as needed. Business that STAY in business do this, rather then just meet a date to say they meet it, and then try and back fix issues.
Sure, stuff happens. I think the difference between a companies with good or bad customer service is how they deal with it. Trevor's response was unapologetic. That's what companies that don't care about their customers do. I'm more upset at my treatment as a paying customer than at a lack of update. It comes across as, "if you don't like it, buy the books," even if that's not the case. What I would have liked to have seen was: 1.) an apology post from someone taking responsibility for the failure 2.) a description of what's being done to prevent this happening in the future. 3.) an acknowledgement of the most effected products (encounters comes to mind) and some bonus material or suggestions with how users can prepare for these events But please, don't use the same tack as my cable company or you're just going to burn customer goodwill.
Trevors statement was simply the facts. Just like people have been saying they wanted. And just like I've said, if they got just what they said they wanted, it still wouldn't be good enough. They gave us a date, the date had to change, everyone gets their panties in a bunch and start grasping their pearls.
Sure, stuff happens. I think the difference between a companies with good or bad customer service is how they deal with it. Trevor's response was unapologetic. That's what companies that don't care about their customers do. I'm more upset at my treatment as a paying customer than at a lack of update. It comes across as, "if you don't like it, buy the books," even if that's not the case. What I would have liked to have seen was: 1.) an apology post from someone taking responsibility for the failure 2.) a description of what's being done to prevent this happening in the future. 3.) an acknowledgement of the most effected products (encounters comes to mind) and some bonus material or suggestions with how users can prepare for these events But please, don't use the same tack as my cable company or you're just going to burn customer goodwill.
This is *not* me dismissing your feelings on the message that was sent out by Trevor/WotC.
However, they *did* apologize in the note that Trevor posted. Whether the apology was what you expected is one thing, but to say that they didn't apologize is a completeloy different kettle of beholder stalks.
You don't know the date they gave was arbitrary. You don't know why the update was pushed back.
Stuff happens. Every business runs this way. You set a date, you evaluate the progress, you adjust as needed. Business that STAY in business do this, rather then just meet a date to say they meet it, and then try and back fix issues.
no, every business doesnt run that way. in business you do what you say or you lose business. that is why people are getting REFUNDS as we speak. if in your own words they are setting a date just to evaluate the progress at that date, then dont announce it to paying customers. say to your boss 'we think it might be ready here but you crushed us with all these major changes to the system, lets evaluate it then and see if we can set a date with the customers'. you dont say 'its coming on this day' to customers, then say 'sorry its coming on this day instead', THEN AGAIN, say 'sorry its not coming, we finally realized we shouldnt set a date so its coming sometime in october'. that is a crap way to do business and something tells me you know it
fire these morons and put someone else in their positions, this is freaking pathetic
Yes the obvious solution is to remove people that have learned the system and replace them with trainees.
um if they were such experts on the system they wouldnt throw out arbitrary dates that they miss by a month or more. if they were actually experts on the system all the more reason to blow them out bc then they have no excuse. what other business runs that way? answer none that stay in business. when was the last time you were given an extra month on something that was due? ive gotta be in the wrong business if that is the norm where you work.but maybe youre right lets just play the forgive game and hold nobody accountable for anything, thats a sure way to improve the situation right?
Application development works that way. And is part of the reason they are probably having the issues they are having now. As has been mentioned before they got rid of the lead developer who originally built the character builder, since it was built and everything else was supposed to be database entry. Which doesn't require heavy development. Now they've got the problem of having Dark Sun Themes, non-standard characters, on top of any more oddities that came from Psionic Power (which probably wasn't implemented the greatest to begin with, considering there isn't any Power Point tracking as far as I've seen).
Result is, you have database entry people, trying to re-engineer a program that wasn't built to handle what they need added. So what do we do? Hire more developers, who yes they know how to program (otherwise why hire), but whatever company or school they came from previously I doubt had a D&D character builder support position. They need to learn the software, figure out how its put together, and then how to possibly modify it to get the new stuff to work. But that's not all! No, they need to figure out how to do all this, without making every character that's been built using the program for the last 2 years trash. Because integrating new things, and expanding what the character builder handles, means those saved characters might end up corrupted or missing important information that's to be in the new files... So they are working on all of this, and learning... What happens if you "fire those responsible", the whole process starts over, and we might get an update by December. Who's really responsible? Game designers, who are designing not for a character builder, but for the game itself. People in charge of retaining valuable employees who created the software that you provide to your customers. In the Application Development area, you don't can the Developers, until you are ready to discontinue their software (especially when you have such a small development group).
I'm an application developer myself, and from the developer point of view, I would absolutely HATE essentials. As a player, who has somebody else maintaining a character builder though I love them. Yes, I'm disappointed in the update, and haven't yet sent in a reimburse message (my wife would probably want me to, if she knew I was paying for a non-update), but people (WotC included), need to realize that firing/replacing developers doesn't solve software issues, they just extend how long it will be till it'll be fixed.
If the character builder didn't exist, I'd probably have created my own by now. So I'm very pleased with their work. And from the constant dread that my group will go back to Shadowrun, requiring me to update my character builder for it, I'm pretty glad that I'm not one of the developers having to do this Essential update.
tl; dr version:
Application Development is different from other jobs, they are not easily replaced, and doing so just slows things down even more. As an Encounters DM, and general player this is very disappointing, but as an Application Developer myself they have my sympathy.
Got an e-mail back from CS stating that they'd refund me for September. Still not happy about the delay, but I have gone from seriously angry to merely annoyed. They might even keep me as a customer provided that the October Update isn't as screwed up as the September one was.
You were seriously angry? Ok.
Yes, I get angry when I pay for something in advance and don't get it. I must be funny that way. Maybe not "File a lawsuit" angry and definitely not "Punch a WOTC Employee in the Face" angry, but definitely "Not Give The Company Any More of my Money" angry. But as I said, for now I find their response satisfactory.
Application development works that way. And is part of the reason they are probably having the issues they are having now. As has been mentioned before they got rid of the lead developer who originally built the character builder, since it was built and everything else was supposed to be database entry. Which doesn't require heavy development. Now they've got the problem of having Dark Sun Themes, non-standard characters, on top of any more oddities that came from Psionic Power (which probably wasn't implemented the greatest to begin with, considering there isn't any Power Point tracking as far as I've seen).
Did they seriously nuke the development team? Could you possibly link to some more info on that. 'Cause...wow.
I'm in Software Development and even discontinued products/services often have a skeleton team that, though they devote most of their time toward existing services, are available to jump over in case of an emergency maintenance issue.
That WotC would operate with some misguided notion that software would reach some static finished state shows they shouldn't be in the software business.
Did they seriously nuke the development team? Could you possibly link to some more info on that. 'Cause...wow.
I'm in Software Development and even discontinued products/services often have a skeleton team that, though they devote most of their time toward existing services, are available to jump over in case of an emergency maintenance issue.
That WotC would operate with some misguided notion that software would reach some static finished state shows they shouldn't be in the software business.
The nutshell version: DDi was originally contracted out to a development house, if memory serves they were called something like Radiant Machine. When it came time for deliverables, the resulting tools were deemed (to put it politely) "not ready to ship." WotC fired Radiant Machine, brought DDi in-house, and salvaged what they could. Either through attrition or layoffs, the in-house team has done nothing but shrink over the last few years, leaving too much work to be done by not enough people.
It's easy to lay blame on the WotC developers for this whole fiasco, but really they're just the benefactors of an inherited mess. If there's somebody to be angry at, it should be the leadership team who have let the developers swing in the breeze for so long without a long term strategy for DDi.
fire these morons and put someone else in their positions, this is freaking pathetic
Yes the obvious solution is to remove people that have learned the system and replace them with trainees.
um if they were such experts on the system they wouldnt throw out arbitrary dates that they miss by a month or more. if they were actually experts on the system all the more reason to blow them out bc then they have no excuse. what other business runs that way? answer none that stay in business. when was the last time you were given an extra month on something that was due? ive gotta be in the wrong business if that is the norm where you work.but maybe youre right lets just play the forgive game and hold nobody accountable for anything, thats a sure way to improve the situation right?
Application development works that way. And is part of the reason they are probably having the issues they are having now. As has been mentioned before they got rid of the lead developer who originally built the character builder, since it was built and everything else was supposed to be database entry. Which doesn't require heavy development. Now they've got the problem of having Dark Sun Themes, non-standard characters, on top of any more oddities that came from Psionic Power (which probably wasn't implemented the greatest to begin with, considering there isn't any Power Point tracking as far as I've seen).
Result is, you have database entry people, trying to re-engineer a program that wasn't built to handle what they need added. So what do we do? Hire more developers, who yes they know how to program (otherwise why hire), but whatever company or school they came from previously I doubt had a D&D character builder support position. They need to learn the software, figure out how its put together, and then how to possibly modify it to get the new stuff to work. But that's not all! No, they need to figure out how to do all this, without making every character that's been built using the program for the last 2 years trash. Because integrating new things, and expanding what the character builder handles, means those saved characters might end up corrupted or missing important information that's to be in the new files... So they are working on all of this, and learning... What happens if you "fire those responsible", the whole process starts over, and we might get an update by December. Who's really responsible? Game designers, who are designing not for a character builder, but for the game itself. People in charge of retaining valuable employees who created the software that you provide to your customers. In the Application Development area, you don't can the Developers, until you are ready to discontinue their software (especially when you have such a small development group).
I'm an application developer myself, and from the developer point of view, I would absolutely HATE essentials. As a player, who has somebody else maintaining a character builder though I love them. Yes, I'm disappointed in the update, and haven't yet sent in a reimburse message (my wife would probably want me to, if she knew I was paying for a non-update), but people (WotC included), need to realize that firing/replacing developers doesn't solve software issues, they just extend how long it will be till it'll be fixed.
If the character builder didn't exist, I'd probably have created my own by now. So I'm very pleased with their work. And from the constant dread that my group will go back to Shadowrun, requiring me to update my character builder for it, I'm pretty glad that I'm not one of the developers having to do this Essential update.
tl; dr version:
Application Development is different from other jobs, they are not easily replaced, and doing so just slows things down even more. As an Encounters DM, and general player this is very disappointing, but as an Application Developer myself they have my sympathy.
and thats all fine, just dont put the date out there, then change the date again, and not get it done. then change to an unspecified date. i dont pretend to know the first thing about how hard it is, but that doesnt matter at all. i dont care what the backstory is, the same way i dont care how they make tires for cars. i just want the tires. tell me if the tires are ready. tell me when they will be ready if they arent ready now. if you change it another time, you are a crap tire shop, it doesnt matter the circumstances. and if it is as brutally complicated as what you say, fire the idiot that said it would be done a month earlier bc he/she clearly has no concept of the process
and thats all fine, just dont put the date out there, then change the date again, and not get it done. then change to an unspecified date. i dont pretend to know the first thing about how hard it is, but that doesnt matter at all. i dont care what the backstory is, the same way i dont care how they make tires for cars. i just want the tires. tell me if the tires are ready. tell me when they will be ready if they arent ready now. if you change it another time, you are a crap tire shop, it doesnt matter the circumstances. and if it is as brutally complicated as what you say, fire the idiot that said it would be done a month earlier bc he/she clearly has no concept of the process
REALLY? We have someone actually saying don't put the date out there after all the posts from people complaining that exactly what they want, dates?
It's come full circle.
Thank you.
It's easy to lay blame on the WotC developers for this whole fiasco, but really they're just the benefactors of an inherited mess. If there's somebody to be angry at, it should be the leadership team who have let the developers swing in the breeze for so long without a long term strategy for DDi.
Agreed.
But as shown, updates, each and every month are not a given feature, guarenteed. You got angry over not getting an update. You got angry over what, $6 a month. To be honest, if that's what gets you angry, I would gladly trade my life for yours. My concerns in life are much more then not getting value for $6 a month, and I'm not even angry of what goes on in my life.
"Updates are not guaranteed" is a fine defense if I were filing a lawsuit, they'd probably win with that. But from a customer satisfaction standpoint not so much.
Further, who exactly are you to tell me what I am justified in getting angry over?
Further further, "there are worse things in the world, so you shouldn't get upset over [whatever]" is one of the most BS arguments that I have the misfortune to hear on a regular basis. No matter what it is you get upset over, I am pretty sure you are not one of those people who is starving in some third world country. Ergo, other people have it worse than you do. So by your own logic, you have no right to get upset over anything, ever.
Good luck with that.
This might be a good time for me to plug what I've found to be a fantastic virtual tabletop, Fantasy Grounds II.
www.fantasygrounds.com/
It doesn't have the fancy 3D environment that the vaporware virtual gamer's table features, but it's very well supported and if you have a current DDi subscription you can pull 4e content such as monsters, items, feats, powers, etc, from the Compendium without having to type it all in yourself. Why Wizards doesn't just license Fantasy Grounds and slap a D&D label on it is beyond me.
The downside is that it's not free, so if you're on a tight budget that could be an issue. The learning curve is also a bit steep, and the 3rd party tools others have developed for it are not very friendly. Still, it didn't take me all that long to figure it all out, and that's speaking volumes.
www.fantasygrounds.com/
It doesn't have the fancy 3D environment that the vaporware virtual gamer's table features, but it's very well supported and if you have a current DDi subscription you can pull 4e content such as monsters, items, feats, powers, etc, from the Compendium without having to type it all in yourself. Why Wizards doesn't just license Fantasy Grounds and slap a D&D label on it is beyond me.
The downside is that it's not free, so if you're on a tight budget that could be an issue. The learning curve is also a bit steep, and the 3rd party tools others have developed for it are not very friendly. Still, it didn't take me all that long to figure it all out, and that's speaking volumes.
My refund just went through. Thanks, WotC. Much appreciated. Looking forward to the October update when it arrives.
As did mine.
My refund just went through. Thanks, WotC. Much appreciated. Looking forward to the October update when it arrives.
As did mine.
Mine too. They're responding quite quickly to the situation.
and thats all fine, just dont put the date out there, then change the date again, and not get it done. then change to an unspecified date. i dont pretend to know the first thing about how hard it is, but that doesnt matter at all. i dont care what the backstory is, the same way i dont care how they make tires for cars. i just want the tires. tell me if the tires are ready. tell me when they will be ready if they arent ready now. if you change it another time, you are a crap tire shop, it doesnt matter the circumstances. and if it is as brutally complicated as what you say, fire the idiot that said it would be done a month earlier bc he/she clearly has no concept of the process
REALLY? We have someone actually saying don't put the date out there after all the posts from people complaining that exactly what they want, dates?
It's come full circle.
Thank you.
NO. Dont put the date out there IF YOU CANT GET IT DONE BY THE DATE. And then do it AGAIN. And then do it AGAIN
I understand that for Hasbro the part of D&D is minimal, so they don't have much people at development, i only want that wotc to be honest and do as good as they can, and i will support this game i love.
Dara
However, they *did* apologize in the note that Trevor posted. Whether the apology was what you expected is one thing, but to say that they didn't apologize is a completeloy different kettle of beholder stalks.
"We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused" is not an apology. It's what you say when you're expected to apologize but aren't really all that sorry. This article has a PG13 word in the title, but it summarizes the difference between good CS and bad CS and how that specific phrase is not an apology.
bit.ly/B2IX3
I'd be happy to settle for less new content (well, at least player options) if it meant getting updates in a reliable and timely manner.
Y'all seem to need more tech folk. Not sure what size your DDI department is now, and I know economic times are tough still, but seriously. DDI's supposed to be a cornerstone of the current edition, and here y'all are looking like putzes. It's embarrasing.
With how long these updates are taking to get the current software taken care of, I'm not surprised we haven't seen any more tools mentioned. I'm wondering how long it'll be before the update for one month will be content from two months previous. At that point scrapping the current architecture and getting something more streamlined and customizable would be a daming but neccessary task. Maybe then you'd be able to publish a mac platform as well.
and thats all fine, just dont put the date out there, then change the date again, and not get it done. then change to an unspecified date. i dont pretend to know the first thing about how hard it is, but that doesnt matter at all. i dont care what the backstory is, the same way i dont care how they make tires for cars. i just want the tires. tell me if the tires are ready. tell me when they will be ready if they arent ready now. if you change it another time, you are a crap tire shop, it doesnt matter the circumstances. and if it is as brutally complicated as what you say, fire the idiot that said it would be done a month earlier bc he/she clearly has no concept of the process
REALLY? We have someone actually saying don't put the date out there after all the posts from people complaining that exactly what they want, dates?
It's come full circle.
Thank you.
NO. Dont put the date out there IF YOU CANT GET IT DONE BY THE DATE. And then do it AGAIN. And then do it AGAIN
Did you even stop to think for a second when they put the first date out there, they honestly thought they would be meeting it?
This is EXACTLY why they have been reluctant to put out ANY DATE! Because they know that the best plans can go off schedule. But still people have complained about the lack of dates.
And so what happens? They put out a date, the date changes, and bam! some one complains about them doing what so many others have asked for.
CAN'T WIN no matter what they do. Do A, crowd B complains. Do B, crowd A complains.
The Red Box should have been a digital initiative and part of DDI.
Gotta disagree here. I actually like the Red Box format for the new starter set. Am I happy with the contents? From what I've heard, not exactly.
But, I'd much rather have this boxed set I can pick up for my wife's nephew for Christmas and put under the tree than be like, "Hey man, you should check out this website!"
Would it have been good for WotC to supplement Red Box with some digital stuff? Absolutely!
"Once you're done with this Red Box adventure, come to Wizards.com/dnd and download a follow-up adventure!"
Now, they're going to get that adventure, exposure to the tools and other content, and maybe even make a community profile or whatever. They can see other books, etc... And, they're off to a good start.
Yes and no.
There does need to be a starter set. And a starter set with tiles and tokens and such is great. However, a starter set running $20 (half the cost of the PHB) should give you a fair amount of the content. You should be able to get a real taste for what D&D is out of the box.
But the Red Box doesn't let you make and customize your own character, just make a pre-made character. You can't even swap out equipment. I've seen more customization in a JRPG. And it really only gives DM content for first level. You pick-up the box, play for 2-3 sessions and then have to spend another $20 for a new book. Two if you're the DM.
The choose your own adventure should have been a free part of DDI, referenced in the Red Box, with an alternate way to make characters in the Box.
Here's an example of how WotC is just failing. The Red Box. It's design is twofold, lure back old players with rules tweaked to respond to criticism of 4e with a nostalgia packaged product. And bring in brand new players.
But, all those brand new players are digital kids. They're ten, eleven, twelve, and thirteen. They're not going to read through the full paragraphs of the red box Choose Your Own Adventure. They're not going to drop $20 on a box they can use once for a single level.
The Red Box should have been a digital initiative and part of DDI. The choose your own should have been a big flash/hypertext adventure with more options than could be handled in a book with a page count limit, leading into any of the DDE classes including the druid and warlord and such. Then, when done, it would build your character and give you a free adventure to print out and play with friends while also telling you exactly which books you need to continue.
The problem is that WotC is still caught up thinking they are a book publishing company. Their thought processes revolve around distribution channels and dead trees. For example, you can't even view sample pages of the Player's Handbook at Amazon, and there's no Kindle version of any D&D materials. (I don't own a Kindle, but I'm pretty sure people would pay for a Kindle version of the core books.) They need to step up and embrace technology, or they're eventually going to be buried by it.
Good points.
But someone was bound to ask this, so it might as well be me. Since this big update in now due in October, does that mean the planned update for october will be pushed back a month, and so on?
That said, since there will never be a VTT, and the CB seems to have all kinds of problems, why not just scrap the CB and do up a really nice excel spreadsheet. Much easier to code, databasing is easy, tons of experts on excel worldwide to draw on the expertise of, and it can be compatible with Open Office, too.
Also is usable by MAC users.
But someone was bound to ask this, so it might as well be me. Since this big update in now due in October, does that mean the planned update for october will be pushed back a month, and so on?
I have done some poking, and hope to have an answer for you tomorrow.
That said, since there will never be a VTT, and the CB seems to have all kinds of problems, why not just scrap the CB and do up a really nice excel spreadsheet. Much easier to code, databasing is easy, tons of experts on excel worldwide to draw on the expertise of, and it can be compatible with Open Office, too.
Also is usable by MAC users.
I would cry if they scraped the CBer for a spread sheet.
I used hero forge sheets, and I still use M&M excel sheets, along with a deadlands excel sheet a friend and I wrote our selves... but none of them are half as useful or user friendly as the CBer...
I can sit my brother in law down and show him the Cber and he can maek a character with a little help... I would have to sit with him the whole tiem on any of the excel sheets...
This might be a good time for me to plug what I've found to be a fantastic virtual tabletop, Fantasy Grounds II.
www.fantasygrounds.com/
It doesn't have the fancy 3D environment that the vaporware virtual gamer's table features, but it's very well supported and if you have a current DDi subscription you can pull 4e content such as monsters, items, feats, powers, etc, from the Compendium without having to type it all in yourself. Why Wizards doesn't just license Fantasy Grounds and slap a D&D label on it is beyond me.
The downside is that it's not free, so if you're on a tight budget that could be an issue. The learning curve is also a bit steep, and the 3rd party tools others have developed for it are not very friendly. Still, it didn't take me all that long to figure it all out, and that's speaking volumes.
Ugh. I have a lot of patience, but it is definitely starting to wear out...
This is my feeling exactly. Between the mediocrity of the magazines and this delay I'm starting to become somewhat dissapointed...
Me three.
This might be a good time for me to plug what I've found to be a fantastic virtual tabletop, Fantasy Grounds II.
www.fantasygrounds.com/
It doesn't have the fancy 3D environment that the vaporware virtual gamer's table features, but it's very well supported and if you have a current DDi subscription you can pull 4e content such as monsters, items, feats, powers, etc, from the Compendium without having to type it all in yourself. Why Wizards doesn't just license Fantasy Grounds and slap a D&D label on it is beyond me.
The downside is that it's not free, so if you're on a tight budget that could be an issue. The learning curve is also a bit steep, and the 3rd party tools others have developed for it are not very friendly. Still, it didn't take me all that long to figure it all out, and that's speaking volumes.
what's wrong with an apology from someone senior on the web site.
WotC_Trevor posted an apology here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(September)&post_num=1#466317425
I also appreciate the fact that we got told about the delay, through an official source, ahead of time. It fills me with some hope seeing that we are being listened to...sometimes
I have also been given a refund for a month's sub, and it's incredible how much good will and willingness to forgive that small gesture creates.
I also appreciate the fact that we got told about the delay, through an official source, ahead of time. It fills me with some hope seeing that we are being listened to...sometimes
With all the refunds appearently going out, should subscribers have to ask to get one or should they just put a month on everyone's account?
I have also been given a refund for a month's sub, and it's incredible how much good will and willingness to forgive that small gesture creates.
I also appreciate the fact that we got told about the delay, through an official source, ahead of time. It fills me with some hope seeing that we are being listened to...sometimes
With all the refunds appearently going out, should subscribers have to ask to get one or should they just put a month on everyone's account?
The note they sent me said that they were unable to simply extend the subscription, so it appeared that a refund was the only option. However, I don't know if they're simply waiting for people to ask, or if eventually they'll just issue one to everyone.
I started with 2nd edition, and I had a bad time with it.
I played 3.5 some years later, and I had a less bad time with it, but I was always lacking in some tools to properly enjoy it.
When fourth came out, I was the first one I know to invest. From my continuous support of buying expensive book after expensive hard cover book, from my terrible, surly local gamestore, tiles at 200% of canadian MSRP, paying for D&DI every month to get the content for my friends so they can build their characters, and getting them on the bandwagon to pay for it, and getting hosed and finding only boosters of minis with the same Shown Large Skeletal Cyclops, rat swarm, and few other samsies that don't have a place in my campaign full of zombies and gods, also joining group after group trying to find a group of four people who weren't jerks to DM for.
My DM, needs time off, and someone else offered to take his position for a while, and DM our DM's favourite setting, Dark Sun. We've been on hiatus, so we could build them with builder, since we don't have much time and we communicate through email. Being able to send our character builds helps prevent last season when we had three controllers and no defender, although there was one with that role.
I've bought two books from the essentials line. What can I tell you? They are ESSENTIALLY the same. Lots of overlap between Heroes and rules compendium. FINE.
Last year they advertised both Dark Sun and Essentials at gen con. It's on your podcast. I listen to every one, several times even. Even if a lot of them have overly-redundant advertising for certain things.
We all knew this was coming. Surely everyone in the company knew this was coming. It was everywhere. Everyone who has ever visited the forum has seen endless strings of messages about how much they love / hate essentials or how they think it is a different edition. You can't visit the D&D forums and be surprised. REALLY.
Why did it take so long to integrate something that I have been hearing about since, as long as I can remember?
Why do I always hear "Person X" is leaving, quit, laid off?
Why is darksun the last mentioned campaign setting?
Why is it that D&DI just plain sucked the last couple months, and mostly sucked this month?
Why is the system getting a nearly complete revamp in a direction I'm not sure I care for?
Where are those tools mentioned in my player's handbook?
Look, I'm loyal, and I love the game. Am I going to ask for my money back? No.
There is a concrete answer.
I know that Wizards keeps doing everything under the sun to make everyone happy.
Rather than complain about any of that, do some good with our money. Maybe some things need change. Maybe, everyone needs a little help to see the problem.
A business is just that, business. Who ever screams loudest, pays more gets what they want.
Here's my scream. I hate every edition before fourth, mechanically. I like that people could choose from a wide variety of options, especially at will powers, that used to be for the most part, interchangeable. I want those options to stay.
Maybe the company needs to stop making so many crazy promises and get a redo from the what everyone is demanding, including the company, of itself.
There was an apology, and some people got money back. Worse things have happened. Maybe a better route is to make a solid, sustainable plan for the future.
If you read all that again, you might see what I see. A company doing a fine job. I'm getting what I want, heck, I'm even getting what you want too. Very few people on the community site were as excited about some of the forth coming tools as the monthly update.
It's not like they cancelled it. It's coming.
Am I sad, yeah. Angry, no. It's just unfortunate planning.
I'm going to keep paying, and I am sure they do plan to get to all the magical things they had in store from the get-go, as long as I am buying it.
Good things come to those who can wait, and better things come to those who will talk to the people who will help them get it.
There is hope, I found a good local game store. Just about anything can happen, if you're willing to fight for it. Quality is worth the wait. Just look at Super Smash Bros. Brawl.
what's wrong with an apology from someone senior on the web site.
WotC_Trevor posted an apology here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(September)&post_num=1#466317425
Thanks AL. I have seen this and won't go into again the reasons already posted why "We apologise for any incovenience caused is inadequate". As I have said in my e-mail to CS, I use the CB exclusively to generate characters and so the Dark Sun books I spent money on in August are currently sitting unused on my bookshelf. The game is incredibly complex and without the CS, AT and the Compendium, I have no way of looking at all the options available.
Others have also posted the effect that this is having on the Encounters programme, especially given that players were encouraged to generate new Dark Sun characters for Chapter 3 of Season 2 without a CB update to do that with. Equally, players will now have no update to generate Essentials characters for season 3.
I would expect an apology on the D&D home page that is longer than 3 sentences and recognises the problems that this delay is calling while also explaining the real reason for the delay. This would show some understanding of how the loyal D&D fan base feels. "We apologise for any inconvenience cause" does not.
I am pleased, though, that WotC seem to be responding quickly with refunds and I await the reponse to my own CS e-mail.
HURRY , I need my count down reset. Seem my 5 activation are blew. I had to reinstall my computer 6 times! I ******* windows crash.
Contact CS and ask them if they can add another tick to your counter.
What I still can't understand is why WotC with its Hasbro backing hasn't been able to produce something similar to FG2 (or KloogeWerks, or Map Tools, or Masterplan) in the same time period. It makes no sense given the hype they gave to D&DI and the VTT when 4E was launched.
I have also e-mailed CS and am pleased that people are getting refunds as that is the right response to missing this deadline but we still get absolutely no info from WotC. I had an e-mail on this update delay but what's wrong with an apology from someone senior on the web site. I am getting tired of the repeated "coming soon" teasers which give no info but seem to promise something exciting. I truly hope that there is a big announcement on the 21st to make all this waiting worthwhile.
As has been said before, when designing programs to can have two of the following three:
* It can be cheap
* It can be on time
* It can look good
WotC has opted cheap and looking good, which means slow. They've gone for "on time" a couple times before, and resulted in the Monster Builder's current massive glitches.
As has been said before, when designing programs to can have two of the following three:
* It can be cheap
* It can be on time
* It can look good
WotC has opted cheap and looking good, which means slow. They've gone for "on time" a couple times before, and resulted in the Monster Builder's current massive glitches.
To be accurate, the theory is "cheap, fast, good" where good means "good quality." My personal opinion as both a consumer and a software engineering professional is that WotC meant to choose cheap and good. Did ok on the second one. Not great, just ok.
But someone was bound to ask this, so it might as well be me. Since this big update in now due in October, does that mean the planned update for october will be pushed back a month, and so on?
I have done some poking, and hope to have an answer for you tomorrow.
Any update? Or did I miss it elsewhere?
Thats just a guess though.
I know I'm having troubles securing a refund because my account is a mess, with half-processed PayPal attempts and doubled payment entries.
It might also depend on the status of your account, subscription method, and such. They might be more prone to refund when you're paying for 3-6 months than if you're just paying on a monthly basis.
I know I'm having troubles securing a refund because my account is a mess, with half-processed PayPal attempts and doubled payment entries.
I am currently toward the end of my second year-long subscription (not month-to-month). It will likely also be my last, given this mess.
Also, building a character by hand is not terribly hard, and it is even easier if you can use the builder in conjunction. Need a mul? Find another race with the ability mods you want to start with, and build you char that way, then just correct the data as you fill in your blank sheet (even with the builder I prefer to use handwritten sheets with retraining and changes happen at every level. I hate crossing out printed numbers and don't feel like use 4+ piece of paper per char per level.) Character themes and wild talents are even easier. My shardmind psion has already begun his career in Athas and had a fully developed Dark Sun build. Yes, the builder is awesome and easy, but you can live for a few more weeks without it. When you update comes out, you are ahead of the curve. There are even houserule buttons you can use to fill in feats and powers. I use this when waiting for Dragon content to update (like vanishing blade for my blinking swordmage.) Just print some blank power cards for yourself.
Finally, if your interest in the game was already hinging on the punctuality of one update or any other single thing, this probably isn't the game for you, anyways. I hear a lot of people talking about all the complaints they have about 4E. Stop playing. Many people enjoy the game and roll with the punches, houseruling when necessary You aren't bound, and even if you own every book in the edition I guarantee that D&D wasn't the most money you'd waste in your life. The value of a car is practically cleaved in twain when you drive it off the lot.
Enjoy life, whatever world you play in.
The subscription fees pay for Dragon and Dungeon magazines content, not just data updates. I love the builder and such as much as anyone, but sometimes things happen. The real world is full of delays. If you are not already acclimated to this fact, this is an excellent time to find out.
Also, building a character by hand is not terribly hard, and it is even easier if you can use the builder in conjunction. Need a mul? Find another race with the ability mods you want to start with, and build you char that way, then just correct the data as you fill in your blank sheet (even with the builder I prefer to use handwritten sheets with retraining and changes happen at every level. I hate crossing out printed numbers and don't feel like use 4+ piece of paper per char per level.) Character themes and wild talents are even easier. My shardmind psion has already begun his career in Athas and had a fully developed Dark Sun build. Yes, the builder is awesome and easy, but you can live for a few more weeks without it. When you update comes out, you are ahead of the curve. There are even houserule buttons you can use to fill in feats and powers. I use this when waiting for Dragon content to update (like vanishing blade for my blinking swordmage.) Just print some blank power cards for yourself.
Finally, if your interest in the game was already hinging on the punctuality of one update or any other single thing, this probably isn't the game for you, anyways. I hear a lot of people talking about all the complaints they have about 4E. Stop playing. Many people enjoy the game and roll with the punches, houseruling when necessary You aren't bound, and even if you own every book in the edition I guarantee that D&D wasn't the most money you'd waste in your life. The value of a car is practically cleaved in twain when you drive it off the lot.
Enjoy life, whatever world you play in.
Yes, but it's not as much fun as stamping your feet and crying out in indignation.
Yes, but it's not as much fun as stamping your feet and crying out in indignation.
Thank you for the unnecessary editorial. I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. All I have said and will continue to say is that I paid for X and did not receive X. End of discussion.
Yes, but it's not as much fun as stamping your feet and crying out in indignation.
Thank you for the unnecessary editorial. I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. All I have said and will continue to say is that I paid for X and did not receive X. End of discussion.
Funny nowhere in my above post do I single anyone out. However, I would like to point out that the way that you may feel about my post, I as well feel about many posts & threads over the last week.
Also what you may have believed you paid for, may not be what you were promised in the first place. So to put it in your terms you may have paid for X but were promised Y. They may be very close to eachother but enough so to cause a misunderstanding in an instance such as this.
I would also venture that were you bold enough to take this breach of contract to court you would be probably disappointed in the outcome. WotC is compensating people who feel hard done by but obviously it doesn't seem to be enough for some.
I queried customer service about this issue and was told that I had to wait "5 to 7 business days" while they "investigated my claim." In this thread, however, people are talking about near-instant refunds. So, what gives? Why am I not entitled to the same refund as everyone else, or are other people being forced to play the waiting game like me?
I was told 5-7 days, but I think that was CYA in case it took them that long because I got mine the next day. Though if you asked for yours over the weekend, you might have had to wait until the weekend was over.
I would also venture that were you bold enough to take this breach of contract to court you would be probably disappointed in the outcome. WotC is compensating people who feel hard done by but obviously it doesn't seem to be enough for some.
Despite my doom-and-gloom posts, I don't care enough about this to take anyone to court (definitely not worth my time). However, frankly, I do feel entitled to a refund for the month of September.
I guess that my point is that, whether they actually "owe" anyone anything, WotC simply doesn't care. It's a corporation, and it exists to make money. They have my money, and they're happy. That's all they care about. This is news to no one (including myself), but I hate situations like this where I'm forcibly reminded of it.
I am currently toward the end of my second year-long subscription (not month-to-month). It will likely also be my last, given this mess.
Post the cancellation email when you do. Mine is below.
This email is to confirm that we have stopped automatic billing for your subscription. Your subscription will continue to be active until the expiration date listed below.
At that time, you will have to manually renew or your subscription will be cancelled.
Subscription Details:
Original Order Number: 7835725700
Expiration Date: 10/29/2010
FYI, watch the bank because I recall over a year ago that when some tried to cancel it did work so well and people were still getting charged.
I would also venture that were you bold enough to take this breach of contract to court you would be probably disappointed in the outcome. WotC is compensating people who feel hard done by but obviously it doesn't seem to be enough for some.
Despite my doom-and-gloom posts, I don't care enough about this to take anyone to court (definitely not worth my time). However, frankly, I do feel entitled to a refund for the month of September.
I guess that my point is that, whether they actually "owe" anyone anything, WotC simply doesn't care. It's a corporation, and it exists to make money. They have my money, and they're happy. That's all they care about. This is news to no one (including myself), but I hate situations like this where I'm forcibly reminded of it.
I see people say WoTC doesn't care quite a bit. Other then having to push an update back, can you expand with examples of how WoTC doesn't care?
And what would it take to make you a happy customer?
1. After over two years of planned integration of the dungeons and dragons game system into the digital realm, over 80% of their proposed programs and ideas have not been implemented.
2. There is still to this date, zero information regarding supposed upcoming projects for the DDI platform, and when asked and pressed for information, we are given the same brick wall answer, "Soon."
3. With the recent fiasco of no updates, a blanket refund was not given to every customer affected. Instead, you either have to call, email, or contact a CS to get the refund. What about the people who don't come to these boards and read whats going on?
4. A company which DOES care about it's customers, and desires to keep those customers as well as attract more would advertise what they are doing. I liken it to walking into McDonalds, ordering a hamburger, recieving a chicken sandwich, then asking why, only to be told "oh, yesterday we stopped serving hamburgers all together, we didn't tell anyone cause we didn't want to lose buisness."
5. After a constant stream of eratta on it's published materials, you'd think that a new play test group would be in order. Sadly, no, they continue to test in house and pump out books that need pages upon pages of eratta. This has made going to ANY rpga event near useless without first consulting said eratta (which is a pain) or buying DDI just for the character builder.
5. After a constant stream of eratta on it's published materials, you'd think that a new play test group would be in order. Sadly, no, they continue to test in house and pump out books that need pages upon pages of eratta. This has made going to ANY rpga event near useless without first consulting said eratta (which is a pain) or buying DDI just for the character builder.
By George I think you have it. Makes sense in a strange way.
Examples of why WotC seems to not care about their DDI customers
1. After over two years of planned integration of the dungeons and dragons game system into the digital realm, over 80% of their proposed programs and ideas have not been implemented.
2. There is still to this date, zero information regarding supposed upcoming projects for the DDI platform, and when asked and pressed for information, we are given the same brick wall answer, "Soon."
3. With the recent fiasco of no updates, a blanket refund was not given to every customer affected. Instead, you either have to call, email, or contact a CS to get the refund. What about the people who don't come to these boards and read whats going on?
4. A company which DOES care about it's customers, and desires to keep those customers as well as attract more would advertise what they are doing. I liken it to walking into McDonalds, ordering a hamburger, recieving a chicken sandwich, then asking why, only to be told "oh, yesterday we stopped serving hamburgers all together, we didn't tell anyone cause we didn't want to lose buisness."
5. After a constant stream of eratta on it's published materials, you'd think that a new play test group would be in order. Sadly, no, they continue to test in house and pump out books that need pages upon pages of eratta. This has made going to ANY rpga event near useless without first consulting said eratta (which is a pain) or buying DDI just for the character builder.
Well, you can look at how you want.
1. Failure doesn't mean they don't care. At best it means the thought to hard, and didn't realize the full scope of what needed to be done, because they wanted to bring their customers something new and amazing, because they do care about thier customers. At worst, they suck at digital project management, and failed to bring their customers something amazing, because they do care about their customers. Failure doesn't mean they don't care.
2. Because of the reaction to #1, they took a hardnosed attitude towards dissappointing their customers again by over hyping something that has an even bigger chance of not happening now, because of the first failure. They took this line because they understand the dissappointment THEY caused by failing at #1. Again they did this because they actually care.
3. They have explained that they can't do a blanket refund, nor a blanket extention because of the way the system is set up. But they also are under no legal obligation to give a refund, because you are NOT guaranteed a monthly update. But since they understand that since they have had monthly updates for the past two years, customers have come to expect it as part of DDI, they are more then happy to refund you the month, if you simply ask for it.
4. See number #1. There are still people who bring up the fact that they advertised DDi in the back of the three original books. So your point is countered by others who are mad about the advertising of the product that they failed at. So who should WoTC listen too, you or them? Since then they have stopped advertising DDi like that, because it has upset a lot of customers. Because they care.
5. The over all eratta is a lot, because of their aggressive publishing schedule of a book each month, along with accessories. That's a lot of books in a short time, and more to come. They did such an aggressive printing schedule to satisfy the fans need for new and more material. Because they care.
It's only natural that there is eratta. Not only that, new material and mechanics sometimes have an impact on old, which is only natural for such a product.
The eratta isn't hard to use, it's well indexed. I can't speak for RPGA events, I haven't gone to many, but it's never been a problem for the few that I have gotten to.
Which is why the CB is so great, it makes that a LOT EASIER.
You admit that they failed, you admit that they suck at digital project management, You admit that they turtled themselves in and refuse to release any info, You admit the extensiveness of the eratta, and that because of it, it's better to buy a DDI subscription just for the character builder.
And you don't think that in the past two years ANY of this would have changed if they really did care???
I love it... Dane, thank you.
You admit that they failed, you admit that they suck at digital project management, You admit that they turtled themselves in and refuse to release any info, You admit the extensiveness of the eratta, and that because of it, it's better to buy a DDI subscription just for the character builder.
And you don't think that in the past two years ANY of this would have changed if they really did care???
Holy crap man, Let me borrow your rose colored glasses please. I would like to live in your world for a few minutes.
They have been doing what they can. I am not saying that more could/should have been done, but given the resources that they have, I don't see the lack of caring. If you PM'd any of the devs that have made their presence here on these forums, and asked them, if you had unlimited resources at your disposal, what would you do with it? I'd bet that their answer would be something along the lines of providing what was advertised 2 years ago.
Unfortunately, they don't have that, so we are left with what they can do with the resources available. Here are some others reasons why those are limited, and to show that they care.
First, they are new to the digital project management environment. They did this because they have gotten burned in the past from outside developers (See the whole digital tools when they tried it for 3e-3.5). That shows me right there that they care enough about their product to make sure that they have more control over it. Have they gotten everything right? No, but I dare you to find me a company that has this early in their life cycle.
Second, the recession. It hit everybody, and budgets were cut, layoffs were made. Companies are still hesitant to do anything until some form of confidence is restored in this economy.
Which leads to the third reason, with the cutbacks, that leaves them with less manhours to work on projects. First, you have the monthly updates that need to get entered into the system every month, and that has some priority. Second, you have the recent change to the monster entries, which has lead to delays, and problems with the monster builder. Now that we've had the September update pushed to October, they are having problems implementing the new things from DS and Essentials. Have they hired more people to help out with the recent developements? I'm guessing no, because once they are caught up, what do they do with those extra people? I doubt the benefit greatly outweighs the cost of hiring more people.
The benefit I mentioned includes, quieting people that complain about the tools offered, losing subscriptions due to discontent with the product offered, and establishing a reliable schedule of releases and products.
In regards to the first two parts, that just is never going to happen. There will always be people complaining on the internet about this and/or that. Those of us that post here are a minority, a vocal one, but a minority nonetheless. Yes there are others that are equally dissatisfied with the product and have chosen to move on without making their opinions heard, but I really don't think that it is a large amount.
The third part of the benefit is based on speculation, what is the expected return on investment of DDi. With that number set, they determine how much they can allot to the budget. Obviously it's set low, due to a number of different factors, including the economy, newness to the developement environment, etc.
In conclusion, it's not that WotC does not care, it's more of how much caring can be done with what they have. Would I like to see and hear more from them? Most definitely, but they've made the decision based on past experiences not to. There are a whole slew of decisions that could have been done differently, but they weren't for various reasons, and now they have to make due with what they have. Changes have been made, its just not the huge sweeping ones that people here want, because they can't afford to do them.
Ramius
P.S. I got my response for a refund in 5-7 days on Friday, and it was posted to my bank account today.
In conclusion, it's not that WotC does not care, it's more of how much caring can be done with what they have. Would I like to see and hear more from them? Most definitely, but they've made the decision based on past experiences not to. There are a whole slew of decisions that could have been done differently, but they weren't for various reasons, and now they have to make due with what they have. Changes have been made, its just not the huge sweeping ones that people here want, because they can't afford to do them.
See, for me what would have convinced me that WotC were really bothered about not fulfilling the original release expectations would have been to say "Yeah, we messed up, but see that we have drafted in more people and are working headlong on these projects to release them as quickly as possible!" Would it have cost more money? Without a doubt! It would also have meant that a short term increase in expenditure may have been defrayed over the longer term by:
a) an increase in subscriptions because all the tools were in place.
b) a decrease in lost subscriptions due to people being unhappy about the development times.
Both of these are just as impossible to quantify as your "I really don't think that it is a large amount" of lost subscriptions due to long development times, but do hopefully raise a point.
Has WotC chosen to cut development costs in the short-term in a way that will have lead to greater costs by the time the tools have eventually been completed?
Because it, effectively, is a "what if" question there is no solid answer... but I sure as heck wish they had chanced it.
In conclusion, it's not that WotC does not care, it's more of how much caring can be done with what they have. Would I like to see and hear more from them? Most definitely, but they've made the decision based on past experiences not to. There are a whole slew of decisions that could have been done differently, but they weren't for various reasons, and now they have to make due with what they have. Changes have been made, its just not the huge sweeping ones that people here want, because they can't afford to do them.
See, for me what would have convinced me that WotC were really bothered about not fulfilling the original release expectations would have been to say "Yeah, we messed up, but see that we have drafted in more people and are working headlong on these projects to release them as quickly as possible!" Would it have cost more money? Without a doubt! It would also have meant that a short term increase in expenditure may have been defrayed over the longer term by:
a) an increase in subscriptions because all the tools were in place.
b) a decrease in lost subscriptions due to people being unhappy about the development times.
Both of these are just as impossible to quantify as your "I really don't think that it is a large amount" of lost subscriptions due to long development times, but do hopefully raise a point.
Has WotC chosen to cut development costs in the short-term in a way that will have lead to greater costs by the time the tools have eventually been completed?
Because it, effectively, is a "what if" question there is no solid answer... but I sure as heck wish they had chanced it.
They did do that to a limited degree back in late '08-early '09. They were regularly updating the community on the status of the character builer, because that was the product that would affect the most customers. One of the benefits of signing up and actually paying for DDi when they went to that model was that you would be in on the beta test of the CB. I remember after the CB was fully operational, they said that updates would be less often, then came the survey of what people wanted to see developed, which led to the Adventure Tools Suite, and the silence/ 'soon' policy that is currently in place.
It was during that time that WotC impressed me the most, the open communication with the community, and effort put forth to make some amends for their previous failures. Overall, with the exception of the past few months, I've been very satified with DDi. It must be the way that I play, but I only have a few gripes in regards to the CB, and the MB works for my needs, which is copying and pasting the information of monster on to tokens in Maptools.
I also think, and this is pure speculation, that they used a lot of resources to put out the CB, and that part of the reason why they went away from the 4 advertised tools, because they didn't realize how expensive it was going to be to develope.
Ramius
I canceled my auto-renewing subscription last night; 11/1/2010 is my last day of DDI access. I tried to post the contents of my e-mail, as a previous poster (on page 8 of this thread) suggested, but while trying to log into the boards from my home computer, I was repeatedly hit with 404 errors and the like.
You'd think that a major international company like Hasbro (I won't even limit it to WotC) could use forum software that, you know, actually works well. Granted, it's a hundred times better than the "forums" that Paizo uses, but that's neither here nor there.
At this point, I just want my October DS update and then I'm cutting my losses. Dragon/Dungeon don't print material I want. All I want is a DS-updated Character Builder. Once I have that, I'm done funneling my money into deep pockets that don't care about my customer experience.
I voted with my wallet, people. Will you?
I love it... Dane, thank you.
You admit that they failed, you admit that they suck at digital project management, You admit that they turtled themselves in and refuse to release any info, You admit the extensiveness of the eratta, and that because of it, it's better to buy a DDI subscription just for the character builder.
And you don't think that in the past two years ANY of this would have changed if they really did care???
I've admitted they failed long time ago. In fact, I've never said once the what happened wasn't their fault. And I've never once said that there wan't probably some mismanagement on their part.
Your first response, first paragraph said "Failure doen't mean they don't care."
Two years of consistant failures and not rectifying those failures, then compounding on those failures with other failures means they don't care.
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I can't help but notice the snippy tone that is showing up in the posts.
Different people will have different opinions. Deal with it.
For some people, the lack of a september update is as important as which commercials show up while watching TV. For others, it is the straw that breaks the camels back.
I would really, really appreciate it if we stopped sniping back and forth at each other trying to prove to other people that their opinion is bad/wrong/horrid.
Edit - Ninja'ed.
Wow. This is disappointing.
...
Very disappointing.
I wasn't bringing it down to insults, unlike you do every time theres an anti-WotC post.
You asked for a list of reasons why they didn't care, I gave that list.
Your first response, first paragraph said "Failure doen't mean they don't care."
Two years of consistant failures and not rectifying those failures, then compounding on those failures with other failures means they don't care.
You mean your post didn't get moderated by an ORC because of the insult of rose colored glasses? WOW.
The thing is this. I'm a positive type of person, I don't approach situations with the idea that people are basically trying to do their worse and are liars or incompetent. Just because someone fails doesn't mean that. WoTC over all, succeeds far more then they fail. Sure if you look at one thing, they seem like a failure. But DnD isn't their biggest money maker. It makes money, but even the people who work specifically on the DnD products admit it's still very much a niche market game.
So with all the other games WoTC puts out, they aren't big failures. They failed in something they have little experience in, and at a bad time, because the economy lead to downsizing, which is what companies always (I think wrongly) do when things get bad.
Pushing back an update isnt the end of the world. And they did exactly what people have asked, let us know what is going on well in advance and as soon as they know themselves.
You asked for a list of reasons why they didn't care, I gave that list.
Your first response, first paragraph said "Failure doen't mean they don't care."
Two years of consistant failures and not rectifying those failures, then compounding on those failures with other failures means they don't care.
Please list all those consistant failures. You mean that every week or month they don't bring out the VTT and the CV counts as a new failure?
The fact that their updates have been so regular that people like you have come to assume that your monthly subscription meant you were owed an udate each month?
Failure doesn't mean they don't care. If they didnt care, they would just pull a Steve Jobs and tell you to "Please leave us alone." I've yet to hear anything even close to that from WoTC.
I posted my reason in an above post. You admited those reason, and now your asking for MORE reason. Cause apparently two years of failures is not enuf. No you just want to play snide and try to throw things back in my face.
And of course you haven't heard anything from WotC. NOBODY has heard anything from WotC.
I'm done arguing with you Dane.
I posted my reason in an above post. You admited those reason, and now your asking for MORE reason. Cause apparently two years of failures is not enuf. No you just want to play snide and try to throw things back in my face.
And of course you haven't heard anything from WotC. NOBODY has heard anything from WotC.
You can't give a list of constent failures because the list isn't there. You are done argueing because when your views are rebuttled with logic and thought instead of pure emotion of anger, you don't have anything to come back and argue with.
I didn't ask for reasons, I asked for you to point out all their failures.
If I'm throughng snide back in your face, it's because you tossed it out there first. It's hard to stand on some moral high ground about not tossing out insults when many of your recent posts are being edited by the staff. Mine got edited for a link to another site about Customers who are wrong. More baiting then insults.
Again, what have they failed at, other then the original Launch of DDi at the release of 4e, over the last two years? I've yet to see this list from you.
This thread is rapidly going to a bad, bad place, and it needs to stop.
Thanks.
ROFLMBO....
What does everyone think of Pathfinder? I hear a lot of talk about it at the local game store but have not jumped at it, due to my huge money sink into WotC. I will check back later, have to check prices on Ebay for my stuff.
Aaaaannnd, this thread is done.
If you want to continue a civil conversation, please feel free to do so in the thread in the DDI Announcements forum. If, however, you wish to continue making accusations of posters being shills, or demands that a list be produced, or any number of other types of posts that do nothing to further the discussion of the topic, you are unfortunately out of luck.