I'm on the fence about re-subbing due to the "train wreck" vibe I'm getting from the forums, as well as WoTC's history as far as digital tools go*.
My main concern about the online only aspect of tools is that sooner or later it's going to be "no more legacy support for 4.0 - we're all 4.5 essentials"
I'm starting a game in May, which will more than likely be 4th edition, but I have a few concerns that folks who have stuck with it can either put to rest or confirm
Character Builder. Does the online Character builder fully support the 3 core books - non-essentials ruleset? Those are the books I have, so that's what I'm using, at least to start. I may pick up PH2 and 3.
Customized content, houserulling - is that an option (if not are there plans for it to be an option)
Essentially the Same question for the Encounter builder tool.
Short version: using the Character Builder and other tools can I do a load out that completely disregards all Essentials content. If so, given the online only nature of the tools will that continue to be the case.
*The character builder and things like that should be viewed as value added loss leaders, not a product in themselves- they are worthless without the game. Offline functionality is a must - require a DDI account for content updates if piracy is a concern or go the route record companies did when cassette recorders entered the picture, by adding frills such as a hardcopy wallmaps and a limited edition comic or starter book from the fantasy line or something.
Long time lurker, former subscriber.
I'm on the fence about re-subbing due to the "train wreck" vibe I'm getting from the forums, as well as WoTC's history as far as digital tools go*.
My main concern about the online only aspect of tools is that sooner or later it's going to be "no more legacy support for 4.0 - we're all 4.5 essentials"
It depends what you mean by "no more legacy support". If you mean that the builder will no longer build PHB1 classes/builds then no, this is patently false. If you're concerned that when (note I didn't say "if") 5e comes out that they will take down the 4e builder, then the magic 8 ball says "unknown at this time".
I'm starting a game in May, which will more than likely be 4th edition, but I have a few concerns that folks who have stuck with it can either put to rest or confirm
Character Builder. Does the online Character builder fully support the 3 core books - non-essentials ruleset? Those are the books I have, so that's what I'm using, at least to start. I may pick up PH2 and 3.
The online builder does not have the old offline builders control of source material/ability to create a "campaign file" which allowed you to restrict access to content by distributing said "campaign file" to your friends. This may or may not be added in the future, but there has been no official word from WotC if this will happen or even if they have plans to do so.
Customized content, houserulling - is that an option (if not are there plans for it to be an option)
In the short term WotC said (a month or two ago I believe) that they will be adding an "Item builder" to the online CB. I havn't heard anything about it since and I have no idea when it will come out, but I believe the post from Trevor that listed it was either a "next quarter" or "next 6 months" projection. Other than that there is no houseruling such as the offline builder had, but there are some things you can do (such as getting a feat without meeting the attribute requirements - raise your stat, take the feat, lower the stat), but as far as giving feats for free such as Expertise (again the caveat that there is a work around for this as well involving the offline builder in conjunction with the online) it can't be done yet.
Essentially the Same question for the Encounter builder tool.
At this time unless you are playing in the VT beta you should be using the downloadable offline Adventure Tools/Monster Builder. It is missing the newer content and has a few annoying bugs, but is mostly feature complete and you can do what you need.
Short version: using the Character Builder and other tools can I do a load out that completely disregards all Essentials content. If so, given the online only nature of the tools will that continue to be the case.
As a DM I'd think that you want to focus on using creatures in Monster Vault (essentials) and MM3 (the first book after the "math" update). At low levels it won't matter much, but encounters will get easier as your players level up if you don't adjust "old" monsters to the new math. Solos are especially MUCH better as the edition has gotten older because they have learned what works and what doesn't. If you want to use the old MM's I suggest getting the DMG errata with the monster building changes, or as a better solution you can go to slyflourish.com and they have a link on their main page for their "ultimate DM chart" on the right hand side that I use constantly.
*The character builder and things like that should be viewed as value added loss leaders, not a product in themselves- they are worthless without the game. Offline functionality is a must - require a DDI account for content updates if piracy is a concern or go the route record companies did when cassette recorders entered the picture, by adding frills such as a hardcopy wallmaps and a limited edition comic or starter book from the fantasy line or something.
edit to clarify - I don't have any particular dislike for Essentials, I just want to keep the two things seperate.
If you want pre-essentials material, you could actually just use the old, offline CB. Pretty much the only non-essentials material it's missing is Dark Sun, since the last update to it added Psionic Power and ignored DS and the first essentials book.
I don't have the old offline CB - is it available somewhere for subscribers?
As the gang affiliation/dragon patch thingy shows, I went ahead and resubbed for a couple months to sort of kick the tires and see what's what.
If you want pre-essentials material, you could actually just use the old, offline CB. Pretty much the only non-essentials material it's missing is Dark Sun, since the last update to it added Psionic Power and ignored DS and the first essentials book.
I don't have the old offline CB - is it available somewhere for subscribers?
As the gang affiliation/dragon patch thingy shows, I went ahead and resubbed for a couple months to sort of kick the tires and see what's what.
You know, I thought it was still available, but a quick search didn't turn up a download link. They may have taken down he last legal means of downloading it
If you want pre-essentials material, you could actually just use the old, offline CB. Pretty much the only non-essentials material it's missing is Dark Sun, since the last update to it added Psionic Power and ignored DS and the first essentials book.
I don't have the old offline CB - is it available somewhere for subscribers?
As the gang affiliation/dragon patch thingy shows, I went ahead and resubbed for a couple months to sort of kick the tires and see what's what.
You know, I thought it was still available, but a quick search didn't turn up a download link. They may have taken down he last legal means of downloading it
The super secret link is still out there, but I dare not give it out for fear they take the file down or delete this post.
If you want pre-essentials material, you could actually just use the old, offline CB. Pretty much the only non-essentials material it's missing is Dark Sun, since the last update to it added Psionic Power and ignored DS and the first essentials book.
I don't have the old offline CB - is it available somewhere for subscribers?
As the gang affiliation/dragon patch thingy shows, I went ahead and resubbed for a couple months to sort of kick the tires and see what's what.
You know, I thought it was still available, but a quick search didn't turn up a download link. They may have taken down he last legal means of downloading it
The super secret link is still out there, but I dare not give it out for fear they take the file down or delete this post.
There is a link to download the OCB, legally, from this site. They ban accounts for posting it.
It's very confusing that the link exists and works but is forbidden, since it's a scenario that makes no sense; they are undoubtedly aware of it, so why they wouldn't just delete it is beyond me. I have a feeling it's due to some weird kind of red tape that would just confuse us, but I can only speculate.
If you want pre-essentials material, you could actually just use the old, offline CB. Pretty much the only non-essentials material it's missing is Dark Sun, since the last update to it added Psionic Power and ignored DS and the first essentials book.
I don't have the old offline CB - is it available somewhere for subscribers?
As the gang affiliation/dragon patch thingy shows, I went ahead and resubbed for a couple months to sort of kick the tires and see what's what.
You know, I thought it was still available, but a quick search didn't turn up a download link. They may have taken down he last legal means of downloading it
The super secret link is still out there, but I dare not give it out for fear they take the file down or delete this post.
There is a link to download the OCB, legally, from this site. They ban accounts for posting it.
It's very confusing that the link exists and works but is forbidden, since it's a scenario that makes no sense; they are undoubtedly aware of it, so why they wouldn't just delete it is beyond me. I have a feeling it's due to some weird kind of red tape that would just confuse us, but I can only speculate.
thanks all - I found it & reloaded.
I'd had two characters saved in a custom location named Alton & Emeril so I know I had it installed at some point. I don't remember removing it though so there's a mystery.
Based on the dates those were created 19 APR 09 - yeesh it's been 2 full years.
That kind of hit me - it's little disapointing to see how little has been actually been accomplished.
the encounter tool is "bleh" - I was expecting something more along the lines of a Core Rules 2.0 for 4e in that regard.
So for encounter design is books & pencils for me. What would be really handy are blank forms or something. I'll look around for something like that or gin something up and post it somewhere.
The Character Builder -
Been messing with the online builder for most of the afternoon, got roadblocked from the get go trying to build a basic fighter. After messing with it (Banged out 5 characters) I figured it out. Sort by source and you can figure out what's core (or whatever setting) via context, but dropping the essentials terminology and the essentials class names in the "home" setting just muddles things up needlessly.
Forgotten Realms, Eberron & Dark Sun setting stuff is present which is nice. sort of surprized at the absense of Greyhawk though.
For encounter design, I've heard a lot of good stuff about Master Plan. I've used OneNote a bit, and it's a pretty handy means of organizing and keeping everything together. Unfortunately, Insider really doesn't offer anything useful. I let my sub lapse before the new monster builder came out, so I don't know much about it, but the old one was reasonably useful. Sort by level, role, and origin go a long way.
Masterplan is awesome for encounter building. You definitely want to find some libraries for it instead of adding all the data in yourself, though. This program was the one reason I was going to get DDI (sure it would have just been a month at a time, but thats better than what I'm paying WotC now, which is nothing), but WotC issued a C&D so the developer had to cut out the DDI download feature to keep distributing it.
As for the old character builder, there is even an online community still supporting it. You can get updates for Dark Sun, some third party material, basically the fans are doing a better job with it than WotC ever did.
For encounter design, I've heard a lot of good stuff about Master Plan. I've used OneNote a bit, and it's a pretty handy means of organizing and keeping everything together. Unfortunately, Insider really doesn't offer anything useful. I let my sub lapse before the new monster builder came out, so I don't know much about it, but the old one was reasonably useful. Sort by level, role, and origin go a long way.
Masterplan is awesome for encounter building. You definitely want to find some libraries for it instead of adding all the data in yourself, though. This program was the one reason I was going to get DDI (sure it would have just been a month at a time, but thats better than what I'm paying WotC now, which is nothing), but WotC issued a C&D so the developer had to cut out the DDI download feature to keep distributing it.
As for the old character builder, there is even an online community still supporting it. You can get updates for Dark Sun, some third party material, basically the fans are doing a better job with it than WotC ever did.
Just an FYI, they throw out bans for talking about that stuff. It's piracy.
I'm no expert on Intellectual Property rights, but I DO see that what tomakaze is looking for is houserule and homebrew capability; and right now, WotC DDI is NOT providing much of anything in that department! The old offline character builder whetted our appetites with houserule capability built in, and then WotC removed that capability with the new online character builder (which is getting updated with new "official" material). What customers are asking for is choice: the option to make D&D their own creation (as Gary Gygax intended it) while ALSO using timesaving digital tools. It seems to me that WotC's current efforts in the digital realm are centered around support of the Virtual Table, which is all very well and good (keep the fight going, playtesters and reviewers!) but FAILS to address the individual creative efforts of (dare I say?) a typical DM. With some of the recent modifications to the online (character) builder, I'm almost (Almost!) ready to renew my subscription, but it's not there yet (for me). It would behoove WotC to encourage the addiction to any digital tool which promotes homebrewing and houseruling: because, when they actually get around to fully embracing homebrew/houserule with an "official" D&D digital product (providing they do this effectively), the addicts will flock to the new "corporate pharmaceutical drug" in favor of whatever they have been getting "on the streets" (from the avid community that bone_naga alludes to).
Peace! And have fun with your new 4th edition game (with all its wonderful untapped design space, such as: themes, hybrids, themes, racial utilities, themes, multiclass feats, themes, etc.)!
-DS
P.S.: Did I mention THEMES?!!!
Just an FYI, they throw out bans for talking about that stuff. It's piracy.
Thanks for the heads up. Doesn't surprise me that rather than up their game to match or exceed a product that is being fan-made for free they would rather just smack down anyone that mentions it (I assume you're talking about the CBC since Masterplan hasn't had any issues that I know of since they removed the DDI capability).
I suppose it might technically be piracy since the content contains rules of feats, classes, etc., but I think it's being stretched beyond its normal definition. This isn't a book being scanned and distributed, or the entire compendium downloaded and rolled up into a torrent, it's just fans entering in by hand data that is needed to continue using the program. They aren't providing the program itself or the updates prior to when it ceased being supported officially.
What's really funny is that Masterplan is free and received a C&D regarding the DDI integration. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are commercial products, have DDI integration, and have not received that same C&D.
What's really funny is that Masterplan is free and received a C&D regarding the DDI integration. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are commercial products, have DDI integration, and have not received that same C&D.
The reason as Muddbunny mentioned in a different thread is that Hero Labs has a prior relationship with WotC and can therefore break IP laws and whatnot. Fantasy Grounds II has the framework, but it doesn't (as far as I know) scrape the compendium. You still must re-enter everything manually...
What's really funny is that Masterplan is free and received a C&D regarding the DDI integration. Hero Lab and Fantasy Grounds are commercial products, have DDI integration, and have not received that same C&D.
The reason as Muddbunny mentioned in a different thread is that Hero Labs has a prior relationship with WotC and can therefore break IP laws and whatnot. Fantasy Grounds II has the framework, but it doesn't (as far as I know) scrape the compendium. You still must re-enter everything manually...
FG2 has a 3rd party utility that scrapes the db. Hero Labs utility is also not part of HL proper. Regardless, there are websites out there (not any part of FG2 and HL) that do that very thing. I only presented the 2 most recognizable examples.
Indeed, there are plenty of legal scrapers out there. That's why pirates were able to create an offline DDI compendium. Ironically, the generic scrapers that can download anything are pretty much safe, it's only the ones like Masterplan that were very limited in scope that WotC can threaten.
I think its more that the utilities are third party so WotC can only C&D them, but in reality its usually some dude in their basement so C&Ding them will have little to no effect as they are open source and some other dude will just pick it up and run with it. So the way to go is to open up your program to allow someone else to take the fall for scraping...
I think its more that the utilities are third party so WotC can only C&D them, but in reality its usually some dude in their basement so C&Ding them will have little to no effect as they are open source and some other dude will just pick it up and run with it. So the way to go is to open up your program to allow someone else to take the fall for scraping...
I'd say it's more than that. Masterplan is third party created by a single guy and he got a C&D. Even some random person in his mom's basement could still be sued. However, there's nothing illegal about a web scraper and they have perfectly legitimate uses. WotC has no grounds for a C&D against a generic web scraper. They can target ones like Masterplan because they are only focused on WotC's property. Now to take your suggestion about opening up a program, yeah if someone else develops a tool that scrapes DDI data, then it's on that person, not the person that wrote the original program. Really the best way to do it would be to write a plugin or something and just throw it up on a few torrent sites and let the internet run with it.
I think its more that the utilities are third party so WotC can only C&D them, but in reality its usually some dude in their basement so C&Ding them will have little to no effect as they are open source and some other dude will just pick it up and run with it. So the way to go is to open up your program to allow someone else to take the fall for scraping...
I'd say it's more than that. Masterplan is third party created by a single guy and he got a C&D. Even some random person in his mom's basement could still be sued. However, there's nothing illegal about a web scraper and they have perfectly legitimate uses. WotC has no grounds for a C&D against a generic web scraper. They can target ones like Masterplan because they are only focused on WotC's property. Now to take your suggestion about opening up a program, yeah if someone else develops a tool that scrapes DDI data, then it's on that person, not the person that wrote the original program. Really the best way to do it would be to write a plugin or something and just throw it up on a few torrent sites and let the internet run with it.
Exactly, which is why WotC is not going to win by annoying their customers and throwing out C&Ds. They could possibly get ahead by releasing an API that is tied to a developer ID. Then when that ID (not to be confused with the membership account) is used in a program that breaks the rules they can simply lock out that ID from being used. They would still make money from memberships and people could have the tools they wanted.
Basically its coming down to evolve or die, and it looks like WotC is not evolving...
Exactly, which is why WotC is not going to win by annoying their customers and throwing out C&Ds.
Glad to know you're in the camp of - don't bother sending out C&D's because piracy is OK and all it does is annoy your "customers".
Exactly, which is why WotC is not going to win by annoying their customers and throwing out C&Ds.
Glad to know you're in the camp of - don't bother sending out C&D's because piracy is OK and all it does is annoy your "customers".
And you win the award for most mischaractarized post...I love it when people use rederic and fallacies to try to sway people. It tells me they can't debate the actual facts and therefore I'm winning the argument.
I never once said WotC shouldn't send out C&Ds. I said it was near pointless to do so. When selling products for unreasonable prices don't be surprised when people pirate your products. When making the software harder to obtain and use don't be surprised when people pirate your products. It is in no way right, but at the same time what WotC is doing is not right. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it might make people feel better. If they want to curtail piracy they need to look at strategies that work. Botching your software and not providing purchasable PDFs is not the way to go as has been proven over and over...
Evolve or die. WotC does not appear to be evolving...