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The last 3 days my heart has been growing weaker and weaker towards this whole D&Di thing. So please, hear me out and my story and make any corrections you need to if I am wrong about these facts of D&Di, and why I think everything is wrong.
[GM]
Many, many months ago I heard the announcement of D&D 4E. I'm not a particular D&D specific fan, but I'm certainly all for new game systems. So, I was rather intrigued.
Then I heard it will be "online compatible", along with seeing some videos about how it works online. This got me *very* interested as I have 2 friends out of state I would love to table top RP with.
So, the months go by and I wait. All I know of (Not being a HUGE D&D Fan, just a good GM and a great Player.
) is the date it's coming out on. As the day approaches, I talk to more of my friends about getting a session together and they are more than happy to join.It comes out. About 5 PM I stroll into my local hobby store and purchase $113 worth of D&D 4E books. Rather excited, I delve straight into it. Excited to explore this online content, I notice the back of the book which leads me here.
*Inhale*
Day 1: I suspect there may be a cost to purchase the online stuff. After $113, I really don't mind forking out a few more dollars for this to happen, especially between 5 people. Suddenly I read rumors of a monthly fee.
Day 2: I continue browsing this website and learn there is a monthly fee. . . a monthly fee of $9.95 for crap, $15 for the real deal. A monthly fee that all my players will have to pay. I have yet to tell them this news, but I am certain they will drop out. Certain.
Day 3: My heart is sunk and just to add salt to the wound, I learn of purchasing tiles and "vminis". My dreams are shattered, my team is lost, after $113, I am really regretting my purchase.
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Now, I really don't want to turn this into a rant. . . I just simply want to explain another perspective.
I got 4 other people into this, unaware of such a large cost to play.
Yes, large.
An MMO is typically less than $15 a month and is available 24/7 (Save for downtime in the least used hours of the morning). I can log on when I want, do what I want, and log off.
This is $15 a month and, while their services are available 24/7. . . I am not. Typically, most PnP RPG's are once a week sessions. That means I'll be using this 4 times a month if that (Ever had people call off on you? . . . exactly.) That means about $3.75 per session.
Ever heard someone cancelling their WoW account or any other MMO because they "simply don't have the time"? Bingo.
I don't like the fact I am being penalized financially because I have out of state friends.
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Further salt to the wound are these 'vminis'.
Excuse me? You're $15 a month is already unjustifiable. Now I'm paying for digital minis? I've never bought online gold in WoW, or an item, or anything for real life cash. Buying an *item* within a program is no longer paying for a service as a monthly fee for WoW is.
Also, I've already spent money on buying miniatures which I've been using throughout the years. Now I have to re-buy them?
Again, I'm being penalized for having spent $500+ dollars over the years on real life minis.
I don't see any justification for pricing these vminis. Period.
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Personally, I'm offended so many people are taking this lying on their backs. Gas is already overpriced, why does my entertainment now need to be?
My dreams of playing with my out of state friends that I've been harboring for months now has crashed down, burned, and ruined in the course of 3 days.
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There is no justification to any of the pricing they are doing here. None.
[/GM]
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_-E-_
What. The. Frack. What will be sold next, Magic items? Seriously hasbro, I understand you would like D&D to make you more money, but gouging your long time fans is only going to send them to WhiteWolf or Paizo...
Buying real miniatures I could see, because its something of real value.
Buying online miniatures I could see, IF the service was free.
But charging a service fee and then nickle and diming us to death?
Thats a level of sinister competing with Canadian cellphone companies...
Oh, and you forgot to calculate the fact that thats 15/player, which amounts to a good 75 bucks a month for most groups. so its more like 20 bucks a session for you. For me that would mean 75 bucks a session some months. Honestly, I think I'll take my 15 bucks, and go to my local 24/7 cafe. At least there I get dinner and several rounds of coffee with my session.
I actually got my wife, MY WIFE, interested in trying it. She's only just recently tried an MMO let alone a roleplaying game.
We where both excited and had friends who wanted to play as well all for a HUGE dissapointment on Saturday.
I've been told there was an article under the Ampersand article saying the tools would'nt be available right away. But... I DONT READ AMPERSAND. I've logged in, looked at the 4th Ed Forums. Look at any DnD insider stuff I could see........ I wont go on a rant , because so many others already have.
What a let down. Plain and simple. "We where so busy working hard we forgot to stop and let you know" Is pretty much what I got out of Mr Whats his names post. uhhhh WHAT?! I'd be out of a job if I used that lame excuse.
Not 1 single tool available on launch day? NOT ONE?!
WoW + BC = $50, monthly fee $15
D&D
Books: $113, monthly fee $10, Extra: minis, tiles
I don't see how these price can compete. The problem with getting closer to MMOs is, that you'll be compared to MMOs.
The char visualizer - nice thing, but getting the demo of WoW and the character viewer will basically allow you the same thing. And this will cost nothing.
Character creator - nice idea, could replace the current PDFs / spreadsheet / web form solutions. But again, these tools are already there and free of charge for the most part.
I doubt they'll change anything, though.
)That said if you feel that strongly and really want to play on line with out of state buddies there are other alternatives. Check out www.fantasygrounds.com Brilliant software and only a 1 off payment. Ok so it is designed for 3.5 but it is easily adapted to play 4 as well (I know because I am using it right now).
Enjoy the game and fingers crossed when D&DI is fully finished it will have enough cool features to justify the cost to you.
Well, let's see:
WoW + BC = $50, monthly fee $15
D&D
Books: $113, monthly fee $10, Extra: minis, tiles
Let's adjust those prices. . . I pay for 6 months at once. . . so it's closer to $12 for WoW.
The $10 fee is the crap one that's not worth anyones time. It's the $15 everyone is going to be using. So immediatly, I am paying more for the core books AND more per month than WoW or any MMO and playing it a lot less. (And let's not get into the Tiles and Minis situation.)
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Again, I fail to see where any of this cost is included.
Blizzard ran Battle.net for many, many years and played host to thousands of more players than this ever will, so why is the price so steep? Why is this company so openly screwing us over?
I doubt they'll change anything, though.
Ain't that the truth. :rolleye2:
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_-E-_
They are pricing plans.
$15 per monthly subscription.
$12? per month for a quarterly subscription
$10 per month for a yearly subscription.
All features would be available to all player no matter what the pricing plan they choose.
There may be more information in the soon to be DDI FAQ, that details this further, but I don't recall criplled anything for choosing to pay less per month by getting a yearly subscription bs paying for only s single month at a higher price getting more benefits. The benefit for the single month is not being bound to a contract it you don't like it after a month, and the benefit for yearly is that you get it cheaper for 12 months worth if you do like it wihtout having to worrying about subscription renewal dealys except for once a year.
Find posts by Ken Troop or Gamer_Zer0 for more details on the pricing plan in this forum, or those by WotC_DM all over the place where he lets out the real news about DDI!
However I agree the v-mini purchasing and all those other little pricing bits makes it not worth my money if/when the trial period is over.
I've tried to stay out of the whole pricing thing while the fiasco of the botched D&Di launch was raging, but now that that fire is cooling a bit (at least for me since I've lived on these boards for the last 5 days), I'm more interested in giving my 2 cents on the pricing scheme.
In a word: never.
I will never allow a company to charge me full MMO price for a system that my friends and I will use for 4-8 hours maybe, MAYBE 4 times a month, if that, AND allow the company to bend me over for digital extras that would be absolutely free in any MMO you can name.
Oh and by the way, for those of you who are saying, "You can't compare D&Di to an MMO" please be aware that the comparison is one that WotC has used all along. They came up with the comparison, it's their pricing model, and it was their idea all along. We're all just on the same page here with them when we keep rambling on about D&Di vs. MMOs. Apples to apples.
Anyway, it's an obscene pricing structure if it's done this way and will not enjoy my patronage. As far as I'm concerned, it should go down like this:
Have your different pricing schemes ($10 - $15 per month, based on commitment) just like you're thinking. For that price we get access to everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, including new minis, new modules, you name it. WotC if you're truly wanting to move into the MMO space you need to understand what MMOs provide vs. what you're offering for the same price. Every month, sometimes weekly, any MMO in the world that charges a monthly subscription will add new content, new art, new features, new skills, new classes, new monsters, new NPCs, new quests, new items, etc. FOR NO EXTRA CHARGE.
Do you really want to have paying customers? Then stop being greedy and read the writing on the wall. If you insist on going with this obscene pricing model you WILL drive away the lion's share of your potential paying audience and you WILL scratch your heads and wonder what happened. This isn't a threat, people, it's the reality of the business you're in, or rather, trying to get into. Listen to your public. Resist the urge to put your head in the sand or dig your heels in just because some pencil-pusher in accounting is seeing dollar signs in his dreams. This is the way it works.
All the best luck,
Blackflagon
love,
malkav
Pricing is the only thing keeping me from not looking forward to DDI as well. I will not support a digital offering that charges a subscription and then sells its graphical content as extras.
love,
malkav
3d content is extra. 2d tokens exist.
The hours of enjoyment I get out of it will be more cost effective than seeing a movie once a month.
Seems WOTC wanted to bring the real table top experience to the digital gamer and it seems they're doing that with pricing as well. I started to think about it and...
If you have a local gaming group you can go the fee route....
Use a ruler or measuring tap for movement, use salt shakers/toys are the figures.
Just like in the digital world you can go free with the free java apps all over the 'net.
Or with your local gaming group you can pay money for a gaming grid, or the dungeon tiles. You can also buy nice figures to paint yourself.
Just like in the digital world you can buy extra "figures", and "rent" the gaming board.
I personally think they should just let you pay for what you use. Its free to design dungeons, its free to use the character visualizer, etc. However if you want the character visualizer to create a v-mini based on your character, it cost $x. Or if you want to buy the "Goblin pack of 4" or "Skeleton pack of 4" It cost $x. If you want to build a dungeon and be able to load it in your game, it costs $x (where X is determined by several factors)
I like the idea of paying $15-20 for premade adventures. The same as like you would buy in your local friendly gaming store, but digital. It has all the maps drawn out, the encounters placed (with DM flavor txt) Pictures to show the players, maybe even a few free v-minis. You purchase it, load it into the game table and you're ready to go.
That would be "my" DDi.
My issue with WOTC is the way they treat potential customers. They need a SERIOUS lesson when it comes to Public Relations and customer service. I now thank God I didn't buy anything on release day, as I would'nt be able to use it anyways. WOTC has none of my money and ,as of right now, very little of my respect. If I ran my business this way , I'd be out of business (We're working so hard we forgot about you..... Yeah, obviously. That makes us feel all better)
3d content is extra. 2d tokens exist.
And that is exactly the problem.Z If I am going to be charged the same rate as fully 3-d and animated offereings, then I want the 3-d graphics included. If they want to charge like say 5 bucks a month for the char tools and articles (if the can keep the pace up on the articles) then im cool with that. I am not cool with DDI charging the same thing as say an offering like WoW and then ransoming the minis. They should be included in the subscription price. you cannot convince me that DDIs graphics cost more to develop than say something like WoW. Why then does DDI chrage for them and WoW include them as part of the asking price?
No way, if I want to play with tokens I will use a free alternative, if someone wants me to pay a subscription, then I want a digital offering that is on par with everyone else charging subscriptions.
love,
malkav
I am not ever going to buy a v mini. It takes a few hours of someones time to make and then it is reproduced an nauseum... an d then Ken Troop has the balls to tell me they are charging for them because of cost associated with making them.
Lick me.
Can't wait till someone pirates your stuff and leaves you behind.
you cannot convince me that DDIs graphics cost more to develop than say something like WoW. Why then does DDI chrage for them and WoW include them as part of the asking price?
Well, to be fair, WoW has a subscriber base of millions of users, and DDIs user base will likely only be in the 5-20 thousand range (total guess on my part). When you have less customers, each customer ends up paying a higher share of the production costs.
DDI could probably be looking at a user base close to 100K in the first year alone, if they did away with the policy of charging for v-minis in addition to the DDI subscription price.
The subscription would pay for them =over time if it didnt do it outright.I mean what are we talking about hiring a few artists and a modeler?
Not gonna do it.