Digital Insider #9: Feedback

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

solice

Sep 30, 2008 12:05:53		Hello all!

Setting this feedback thread in advance for Randy's Digital Insider #9, due to go live at 12:00 am EST.
#2

whitebaron

Sep 30, 2008 12:07:48 		seems development staff still has not managed to merge the cms with the forums.... this is like 1 hour work...
#3

kyros_tachyus

Sep 30, 2008 15:00:31 		Yet another like this...
#4

Kentinal

Sep 30, 2008 16:15:57 		Well about noon (local time) is about two hours past.

Hmm let me try something.

Nope that did not work.

Though 12:00 AM can be understood to be midnight, though US standards does appear to indicate Noon.
#5

Dralenan

Sep 30, 2008 16:29:18
Well about noon (local time) is about two hours past.

Hmm let me try something.

Nope that did not work.

Though 12:00 AM can be understood to be midnight, though US standards does appear to indicate Noon.

Um, in the U.S. 12:00 AM means midnight, never heard otherwise...
#6

Kentinal

Sep 30, 2008 16:41:00
Um, in the U.S. 12:00 AM means midnight, never heard otherwise...

Well seeing we have hours to discuss this then, *sighs*

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight

Which mostly supports your view. I find this.

The use of "12:00 a.m." for midnight and "12:00 p.m." for noon, however, is contrary to the U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual[10] which recommends the opposite: "12 p.m." for midnight and "12 a.m." (formerly "12 m.") for noon.

#7

Dralenan

Sep 30, 2008 16:47:54 		That is fascinating, thanks. But in practical use, 12 AM is midnight. Kind of interesting how we're all doing it wrong.
#8

Kentinal

Sep 30, 2008 16:57:12
That is fascinating, thanks. But in practical use, 12 AM is midnight. Kind of interesting how we're all doing it wrong.

Well the U.S. Government Printing Office could be doing it wrong.

In either case the expected soon release has not occurred.

6 hours to go to planed release?
or
6 hour delay from planed posting?
#9

Dralenan

Sep 30, 2008 18:25:54 		I think it's pretty clear they meant it won't be out for another 4 hours.
#10

rhianni32

Sep 30, 2008 18:30:34 		With it coming out at midnight presumeably he wont be talking about meeting deadlines lol.
(yes i know there is no deadline. I just find it ironic that last week we were asked all these questions on how things can be made smoother and for us to be happier).

EDIT: Well I have a huge slice of humble pie to go with my morning coffee. This is a good update and that clearly sets a solid expectation for us when things will be coming out.
#11

WolfStar76

Sep 30, 2008 19:13:34
That is fascinating, thanks. But in practical use, 12 AM is midnight. Kind of interesting how we're all doing it wrong.

These kinds of confusions is why I never schedule anything on the 12's.

Instead, I schedule things for "noon," "midnight," "12:01pm" or "12:01am".

That extra minute seems to make all the difference in the world.
#12

KM.549

Sep 30, 2008 19:55:24 		This is the second update in a row that will be posted when the offices will be closed. I wonder why they don't want to be there for the response? What is going to make us upset this time? Every one of these has made people upset in one way or another.
#13

Mock

Sep 30, 2008 23:08:13 		It's up now. Interesting stuff - a lot of the suggestions in the feedback thread on #8 seem to have taken root.
#14

Dralenan

Sep 30, 2008 23:12:22 		Article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20081001a
#15

ryukatana

Sep 30, 2008 23:14:40 		"Damn, they cleaned up quick... I expected they would though, go WotC!"
#16

asmodeuslore

Sep 30, 2008 23:16:04 		*stands up and starts the slow clap*
#17

seventhson

Sep 30, 2008 23:17:49 		Good post.

How odd.
#18

ryukatana

Sep 30, 2008 23:20:18
*stands up and starts the slow clap*

Joins in, "come on, if they stick to the plan, this pretty much kicks most of the complaints I've seen in the nuts."
#19

Fox_Reeveheart

Sep 30, 2008 23:23:29
*stands up and starts the slow clap*

NOOOOO I wanted to start it Q_Q
#20

crimson_lancer

Sep 30, 2008 23:55:15 		As an old Magic: the Gathering player who tracked that website for quite a long time, I will say what I have known to be true all along: Randy Buehler Rocks Hard. :D
#21

Cailte

Oct 01, 2008 0:06:50 		Thanks Randy for taking on board the suggestions., and getting them implemented so quickly.

Now to get that release date posted against the articles in the TOC.
#22

GMforPowergamers

Oct 01, 2008 1:05:28
Joins in, "come on, if they stick to the plan, this pretty much kicks most of the complaints I've seen in the nuts."


:bounce::bounce:


#23

hennebeck_dup

Oct 01, 2008 1:57:10 		What about the updates on the Tiny Adventures?
This one didn't tell me anything about the Facebook program that's all the rage.

/sarcasm off

Actually, thanks for listening to all of us last month.
It's appreciated.
Keep up the good work. And continue to work hard so we can have fun.
And have fun while you work.
#24

citan

Oct 01, 2008 2:27:18 		After reading DDI News #9 i just wanted to say: Great work!! I never complained here in the forums, but I read the whole bunch of criticism very regularly. If WoTC manages to hold up to the things promised in the news article, I'm definately going to subscribe to DDI.
#25

nexusvalhees

Oct 01, 2008 2:43:37
After reading DDI News #9 i just wanted to say: Great work!! I never complained here in the forums, but I read the whole bunch of criticism very regularly. If WoTC manages to hold up to the things promised in the news article, I'm definately going to subscribe to DDI.

this is definitely a move in the right direction. A very solid plan and one that addresses many things Thanks for the update.
#26

whitebaron

Oct 01, 2008 4:30:53
*stands up and starts the slow clap*

*clap*

one thing to add, however:

3
DRA: Editorial
DRA: Ampersand

Note that editorials and columns without game rules content (like Ampersand or Confessions of a Full-Time Wizard) will be appearing on the free side of the website and thus will not count toward your daily dose of Dragon or Dungeon. (They will still be included in the full-issue roll-ups.)

try to meet your schedules and keep up to your promises, randy, and you're all set. this friday would need a content part, but well, it's new to you, too.

and, most importantly: GET THE RELEASE SCHEDULE LINKED. no way to find this anywhere except your column. this should be one of the first pages to find if you go to wizards.com/dnd or dndinsider.com

-- issue compilations for this month are also a bit late, but whatever - we'll have a fixed schedule for that from now on.
#27

KM.549

Oct 01, 2008 4:38:13 		I assume if it does not say free on the calandar, you have to be signed up and paying for DDi to get the article?

I like the idea of the calandar. I would also like other stuff added to it. Street dates for products, when the tools get closer, a date for when they will go live, ect..
#28

whitebaron

Oct 01, 2008 4:47:12
I assume if it does not say free on the calandar, you have to be signed up and paying for DDi to get the article?

looks like it.

I like the idea of the calandar. I would also like other stuff added to it. Street dates for products, when the tools get closer, a date for when they will go live, ect..

tools might be a problem, as they usually will not ship in the same month.

i personally, would not like a "wizards" calendar with all that stuff put into it, as it devalues the reasoning behind it - be a DDI/magazine release calendar.
updates put into tracking these should better be used for magazine "stuff" whatever is needed.
#29

aliothefool

Oct 01, 2008 5:42:57 		I've been critical of DDI all along, but that was actually a very impressive article. It shows clearly that the complaints of issue 7's thread were being heard.

I'm still not excited about subscribing at the price point for what I want (the 2 mags and the VT), but it is nice to see that WotC is willing to listen to the majority when making decisions. Very cool.
#30

SoulCatcher78

Oct 01, 2008 6:14:42 		It's good to see that someone is now steering the vehicle. Keep it up after the subscription launches and I'm sure it will be smooth sailing.
#31

rhen

Oct 01, 2008 6:34:32 		Even though I was planning on subscribing anyway, this article makes me very, very happy.

Thanks, Randy!
#32

WolfStar76

Oct 01, 2008 6:53:39 		Calendar is super-awesome.

However, I note there's no listing for an RPGA Report for October. I know Chris (and Ian) are always incredibly busy, but these articles have been great for RPGA members.

Is this an oversight?
#33

crashbeedo

Oct 01, 2008 7:04:18 		The editorial calendar is awesome. (Please link it somewhere so it can be found). Great post Randy, it builds confidence to see you guys are getting your publishing model and processes structured.
#34

eleran

Oct 01, 2008 7:13:27
Calendar is super-awesome.

However, I note there's no listing for an RPGA Report for October. I know Chris (and Ian) are always incredibly busy, but these articles have been great for RPGA members.

Is this an oversight?

I think thats why there is a note after the calendar explaining that it is a living document that will be changing as things are added, subtracted, and otherwise moved around.
#35

WolfStar76

Oct 01, 2008 7:15:41
I think thats why there is a note after the calendar explaining that it is a living document that will be changing as things are added, subtracted, and otherwise moved around.

Agreed, just curious to see if it's planned at all, or if the RPGA guys are just far too busy this month.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a "floating" feature that's scheduled for "whenever Chris can find time to write and submit it."
#36

aberzanzorax

Oct 01, 2008 7:17:09 		I wasn't planning on subscribing until this article. I wanted to, but I just couldn't do it.

This has given me something to think about.

Awesome, Randy.

Thank you so much for listening to and integrating our feedback. I think you deserve some sort of forum driven prize:

Forum's Choice Most Valuable Employee
(for two way communication, and braving the snarling beasties in the forums)


You got my vote. :D
#37

Mock

Oct 01, 2008 7:55:32 		Like Aberzanzorax, I had sworn off subscribing, despite liking the material that was coming out, because I didn't feel like expectations were being met. This is extremely reassuring, and if it's stuck to - or even mostly stuck to - I may have to eat my words.
#38

crimson_lancer

Oct 01, 2008 8:06:10 		/votes for Randy (lol)
#39

Keithric

Oct 01, 2008 8:21:34 		Excellent - really loving these weekly updates. Also, thumbs up on the plan.
#40

almuric

Oct 01, 2008 8:22:40 		I also like this post. However, I have a question about timing.

1. We're supposed to get the Barbarian article soon. Then,
2. There's supposed to be a closed Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
3. There's supposed to be an open Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
4. You guys are supposed to start charging for the content

I don't know how you guys are gonna do all that in one month. Unless you start charging and then do the open Beta.

I did notice that there was nothing said about the Character Builder. I hope that's not a bad sign.
#41

oveja_negra

Oct 01, 2008 8:37:50
I also like this post. However, I have a question about timing.

1. We're supposed to get the Barbarian article soon. Then,
2. There's supposed to be a closed Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
3. There's supposed to be an open Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
4. You guys are supposed to start charging for the content

I don't know how you guys are gonna do all that in one month. Unless you start charging and then do the open Beta.

I did notice that there was nothing said about the Character Builder. I hope that's not a bad sign.

I was thinking the same thing. Other than that, great post
#42

ranadiel

Oct 01, 2008 8:45:30
try to meet your schedules and keep up to your promises, randy, and you're all set. this friday would need a content part, but well, it's new to you, too.

and, most importantly: GET THE RELEASE SCHEDULE LINKED. no way to find this anywhere except your column. this should be one of the first pages to find if you go to wizards.com/dnd or dndinsider.com

-- issue compilations for this month are also a bit late, but whatever - we'll have a fixed schedule for that from now on.

I think Friday's content may be a compilation of last month's issue. I mean they need to do it eventually and it would handle the missing day.

As a side note, the calander is linked on the main D&D page under features.

I assume if it does not say free on the calandar, you have to be signed up and paying for DDi to get the article?

It is said in the article that editorials and columns with no game rule stuff will be free content. So Design and Devlopment, Confessions of a Full Time Wizard, RPGA Report, Ampersand, and probably a handfull of others that I missed should all be free.

Calendar is super-awesome.

However, I note there's no listing for an RPGA Report for October. I know Chris (and Ian) are always incredibly busy, but these articles have been great for RPGA members.

Is this an oversight?

I'd put it as an oversight/"we have no idea of when it will be ready" because it is listed in the table of contents.

I also like this post. However, I have a question about timing.

1. We're supposed to get the Barbarian article soon. Then,
2. There's supposed to be a closed Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
3. There's supposed to be an open Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
4. You guys are supposed to start charging for the content

I don't know how you guys are gonna do all that in one month. Unless you start charging and then do the open Beta.

I did notice that there was nothing said about the Character Builder. I hope that's not a bad sign.

You have the order slightly offf. It is going to be:

1. We're supposed to get the Barbarian article soon. Then,
2. You guys are supposed to start charging for the content. Then,
3. There's supposed to be a closed Beta of the Character Builder. Then,
4. There's supposed to be an open Beta of the Character Builder.

Subscribers are supposed to be part of the closed beta, so they have to start charging before the clsoed beta. Additionally I can't remember tif they have said if either of the betas are supposed to be before next month or not.
#43

vazanar

Oct 01, 2008 9:26:54 		Nice to see an attempt to deal with the complaints. I certainly feel better about the process.

Only complaint I have is, couldn't the Ravenloft article come out a little earlier so dms could use it that week?
#44

rhianni32

Oct 01, 2008 9:36:19 		Randy thank you for these changes these are what most and especially I had in mind.
I had been very on the fence if I was going to subscribe or not. The content is good but I was concerned with the delivery and commitment.

I'll subscribe to the magazines for 1 month. I'll keep subscribing s long as you can meet the dates. A few delays is fine and understandable. Things can get hectic As long as they are the exception
#45

highbulp

Oct 01, 2008 9:47:20 		Just want to say thanks a bunch for listening I'm most pleased about the solid, sensible dates for updating the Compendium.
#46

hatsuma

Oct 01, 2008 9:49:25 		The RPGA report is listed on the dragon table of contents, so I assume one will be there.

Also this is awesome.

Also I can't find the Web UI Designer job in the listing that it links to.
#47

Preston_R

Oct 01, 2008 10:06:30
The RPGA report is listed on the dragon table of contents, so I assume one will be there.

Also this is awesome.

Also I can't find the Web UI Designer job in the listing that it links to.

here it is

http://hasbro.recruitmax.com/MAIN/careerportal/Job_Profile.cfm?szOrderID=3288&szReturnToSearch=1&szWordsToHighlight=
#48

Drax_Hoak

Oct 01, 2008 10:34:07 		This is great news, just perfect. I couldn't be happier and now have much more confidence in forking my money over for DDI.
#49

llirreh

Oct 01, 2008 11:31:22
here it is

http://hasbro.recruitmax.com/MAIN/careerportal/Job_Profile.cfm?szOrderID=3288&szReturnToSearch=1&szWordsToHighlight=

When I follow that link, I get the following message:
The requisition you were trying to access does not exist.
#50

naznarreb

Oct 01, 2008 11:51:55 		My mind is officially blown
#51

Preston_R

Oct 01, 2008 11:55:15
When I follow that link, I get the following message:
The requisition you were trying to access does not exist.

that's really weird. Go to

http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Jobs/

then click "job search"

then select "Renton" from the cities option on the right hand side, click search

Then it should be the top job. Web UI Designer

I'm just sad that there are no entry level HR or similar jobs for an ex USAF person with a B.A. in Psychology with a focus on I.O. on there anywhere for ...

Well for me.
#52

VerysArkon

Oct 01, 2008 12:23:23 		Hey Randy,

Good update! Like others here, so glad that suggestions were implemented. Here are some cookies for you and the crew.

#53

nmhall

Oct 01, 2008 12:42:10 		Woot Woot! Almost all of my issues with the mag sub were covered in this update, right down to the editorial calendar! Thanks Randy and crew, you've made a HUUUUUGE step towards restoring my faith in what's going on... a good bit of listening and transparency goes a long way. Now if only I could convince you to resume doing print editions... ;)
#54

banpai

Oct 01, 2008 12:56:53 		I was just about to call it all epic fail some days ago, but no they really made it into an epic success. I think that they can actually pull this off, but I really would love to get some information on how we can pay for it.
#55

asmodeuslore

Oct 01, 2008 13:16:05 		I believe they said they would take credit cards and paypal, along with some other options. Work is killing me, so I can't dig up a link at this moment. But if someone else hasn't stepped up by the time I get home, I'll be sure to get you more details.
#56

christopher_rowe

Oct 01, 2008 13:33:35 		Great column! Full steam ahead!
#57

wotc_mark

Oct 01, 2008 14:55:07 		Today we added a "What's New" Tab to the center area of the D&D main page. This is a roundup of the newest articles from D&D, Dragon, Dungeon, and D&D Minis. This tab will be the first thing that you see in that tabbed area when you visit the site. We included a link to the monthly "Editorial Calendar" that will always appear on that page. Also added was a link to the "Editorial Calendar" to the left nav of the D&D site under the "Home" area. We worked as fast as we could to get those added to the site for you and hope that it will help you locate the calendar when you have that urge to check out the schedule.

Enjoy =)

MJ
:88E:
#58

mycroftb

Oct 01, 2008 16:04:32 		That was certainly a quick response! It feels like D&DI is much more organized now, gives me more faith in the product. Even if the behind-the-scenes development has stayed the same, the presentation is a needed improvement. It's good that you guys can scramble this quickly to meet the requests of the community.

I hope you solicit feedback more often to better shape the products and services to your customers. I also like that it's done in an open forum like this, so I can see literally hundreds of requests for the same thing. And I can also see if I've got one bit of criticism that nobody else touches upon, and be more understanding if that's not addressed or given priority.
#59

crimson_lancer

Oct 01, 2008 17:37:04
Today we added a "What's New" Tab to the center area of the D&D main page. This is a roundup of the newest articles from D&D, Dragon, Dungeon, and D&D Minis. This tab will be the first thing that you see in that tabbed area when you visit the site. We included a link to the monthly "Editorial Calendar" that will always appear on that page. Also added was a link to the "Editorial Calendar" to the left nav of the D&D site under the "Home" area. We worked as fast as we could to get those added to the site for you and hope that it will help you locate the calendar when you have that urge to check out the schedule.

Enjoy =)

MJ
:88E:

:OMG!
#60

aberzanzorax

Oct 01, 2008 17:43:01 		Randy may have to share his award with Wotc_Mark
#61

The_Jester

Oct 01, 2008 18:04:08 		I find it very, very interesting that the newest tool released and the next tool (Encounter Builder, the Monster Builder) both seem to have been created on their own by someone, possibly on their own time.
Sure, they mirror tools released elsewhere by the community (there a fun monster generator aid here:
http://asmor.com/programs/monstermaker/index.php)
But it's nice to have official ones.
#62

pa_kid

Oct 01, 2008 20:13:12 		Assuming that everything set out here is kept to consistently (I'd be happy with 90% of the time) I have to say bravo.

Impressed to see that all of the feedback was taken to heart - and so quickly.
#63

endarian_dup

Oct 01, 2008 23:04:05 		I like everything except the fact that they choose midnight EST for updates.
#64

asmodeuslore

Oct 01, 2008 23:15:48
I was just about to call it all epic fail some days ago, but no they really made it into an epic success. I think that they can actually pull this off, but I really would love to get some information on how we can pay for it.

Here's the closest information I can find: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16567925&postcount=8
#65

Ultrann

Oct 02, 2008 6:38:40 		Maybe I'm missing something here, but I have seen no mention of the D&D Gaming Table in updates #7, 8 or 9. What is going on with that? It seems like a lot of effort is being put into the "bonus tools" but where is the effort towards one of the core products - the gaming table??

I'd like to subscribe, but I'm not keen on doing so until I know I can actually start playing online with others.

If anyone can enlighten me on the time frame for the table, please do so.

Thanks

Ultrann
#66

Kryptonian_Scion

Oct 02, 2008 7:57:34
I like everything except the fact that they choose midnight EST for updates.

Why?

That means that when you wake up Monday, Wednesday, and Friday mornings, the first thing you can do before going to work (or after arriving at work, as I do) is read the newest articles.

If you're nocturnal (or in Mountain or West Coast time), that means you get them Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday nights.

Pretty decent, IMO.
#67

crimson_lancer

Oct 02, 2008 8:03:43
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I have seen no mention of the D&D Gaming Table in updates #7, 8 or 9. What is going on with that? It seems like a lot of effort is being put into the "bonus tools" but where is the effort towards one of the core products - the gaming table??

I'd like to subscribe, but I'm not keen on doing so until I know I can actually start playing online with others.

If anyone can enlighten me on the time frame for the table, please do so.

Thanks

Ultrann

As one of the most advanced features, the Game Table will be the last DDI product released, since WotC wants to make sure it is perfect. If they released it now, it would probably be better to simply use the third-party VTTs that are out there for free instead. I'm sure that when they do release it, it will blow most of those out of the water.
#68

mightytev

Oct 02, 2008 9:41:20 		I can't help thinking - if you moved the free content to tuesdays/thursdays/saturdays, there'd be new content every day. Wouldn't that be better?
#69

warderbrad

Oct 04, 2008 10:23:23
most importantly: get the release schedule linked. no way to find this anywhere except your column. this should be one of the first pages to find if you go to wizards.com/dnd or dndinsider.com

I would agree with this and add that it would be nice to have the articles linked from here as well so that from the calender you can go straight to the article.
#70

warderbrad

Oct 04, 2008 10:25:55
Calendar is super-awesome.

However, I note there's no listing for an RPGA Report for October. I know Chris (and Ian) are always incredibly busy, but these articles have been great for RPGA members.

Is this an oversight?

13
DRA: Pimp My Artifact/Vehicle
DRA: RPGA Report
Free: Vicious Venues
Free: Excerpts: Martial Power
#71

warderbrad

Oct 04, 2008 10:55:02 		13
DRA: Pimp My Artifact/Vehicle
DRA: RPGA Report
Free: Vicious Venues
Free: Excerpts: Martial Power

It bothers me to see that the RPGA report is listed as a object of the Dragon Mag. This would imply that only if you pay for the mag do you get the updates to the FREE RPGA Campaign. This seems like it should be in the RPGA section and not in the Dragon Mag.
#72

crimson_lancer

Oct 04, 2008 19:32:34 		Some of the stuff from both magazines will still be free, IIRC.
#73

WolfStar76

Oct 05, 2008 8:46:29
13
DRA: Pimp My Artifact/Vehicle
DRA: RPGA Report
Free: Vicious Venues
Free: Excerpts: Martial Power

Fairly certain that wasn't there before (as I did a find on the page and RPGA didn't show up).

Regardless, thanks for showing that it's there now.
#74

WolfStar76

Oct 05, 2008 8:47:43
13
DRA: Pimp My Artifact/Vehicle
DRA: RPGA Report
Free: Vicious Venues
Free: Excerpts: Martial Power

It bothers me to see that the RPGA report is listed as a object of the Dragon Mag. This would imply that only if you pay for the mag do you get the updates to the FREE RPGA Campaign. This seems like it should be in the RPGA section and not in the Dragon Mag.

While that may be the implication, so far it looks like only things that are behind a download/pdf link are to be "paid" articles, and the rest is free.

I, personally, think it's great that RPGA articles are in Dragon, because that can help promote the RPGA to people who may not otherwise be exposed to it.
#75

mead

Oct 05, 2008 22:50:43
These kinds of confusions is why I never schedule anything on the 12's.

Instead, I schedule things for "noon," "midnight," "12:01pm" or "12:01am".

That extra minute seems to make all the difference in the world.

This is why everyone needs to be using military time. We have 24 hours in a day, there's no point in doubling up on the labels. Just confuses people.

And thus, regardless of whether one called midnight 2400 or 0000, everyone would absolutely know that they weren't talking about noon at all.
#76

crimson_lancer

Oct 06, 2008 0:38:26
This is why everyone needs to be using military time. We have 24 hours in a day, there's no point in doubling up on the labels. Just confuses people.

And thus, regardless of whether one called midnight 2400 or 0000, everyone would absolutely know that they weren't talking about noon at all.

Hoorah.
#77

mudbunny

Oct 06, 2008 8:08:44 		You yell, we shell. 24 hours a day!!
#78

mead

Oct 06, 2008 10:04:11 		I also think we should eliminate time zones and get the entire world on UTC, but that's another ball of worms =)
#79

tavokk

Oct 06, 2008 10:54:58
I also think we should eliminate time zones and get the entire world on UTC, but that's another ball of worms =)

I can't say I'm in favor of that. If I get up at 4:30am ET now I'd have to get up at 11:30p (or 23:30) UTC. That's just depressing.


--Tom