Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 szwanger May 07, 2009 17:28:21	The character builder allows a half-elf character to retrain his Dilettante power to any other at-will power in the game. The PHB does not allow this: "You can retrain a power with another power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter attack power, daily attack power, or utility power) of the same level or lower, and from the same class" (p. 28, emphasis mine). Nor does PHB allow the retraining of racial features: just feats, powers, and skills. It's possible that such retraining is intended to be legal; in that case, errata needs to be issued for the PHB. Otherwise, this is a bug.
#2 mdonais May 07, 2009 18:55:08	Thanks, for stuff like this just use the report a bug function on the title screen.
#3 Cailte May 10, 2009 4:08:42	The report a bug link really needs to be more accessible. I should not need the CS page bookmarked to be able to effectively report bugs.
#4 mwao_dup May 10, 2009 19:54:29	The PHB does not allow this: "You can retrain a power with another power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter attack power, daily attack power, or utility power) of the same level or lower, and from the same class" (p. 28, emphasis mine). i.e. If the power came from being a member of a class, it must come from the same class. If it doesn't come from a class, the condition is satisfied. The Dilettante power doesn't come from belonging to a class. Nor does PHB allow the retraining of racial features: just feats, powers, and skills. It says absolutely nothing in the retraining section about racial features that grant feats, powers, and skills being unable to be retrained. Reading it that strictly results in bizarro things like humans being unable to retrain their bonus feats.
#5 szwanger May 10, 2009 20:56:26	i.e. If the power came from being a member of a class, it must come from the same class. If it doesn't come from a class, the condition is satisfied. The Dilettante power doesn't come from belonging to a class. The power chosen with Dilettante doesn't come from the ether. It's a power from a class. It isn't from the character's class, but it's still from a class. Dilettante even says "choose an at-will power from a class" (emphasis mine). Therefore it can be retrained, but only to a power from the same class. It says absolutely nothing in the retraining section about racial features that grant feats, powers, and skills being unable to be retrained. It doesn't need to. The rules explain what can be done. They don't need to explicitly prohibit something that can't be done. The retraining section also doesn't say anything about stats or race being unable to be retrained. That omission does not allow a character to retrain his stats, or his race. Reading it that strictly results in bizarro things like humans being unable to retrain their bonus feats. The bonus feat is still a feat. Therefore it can be retrained. And it isn't the racial feature being retrained; it's the feat.
#6 mwao_dup May 10, 2009 21:27:14	The power chosen with Dilettante doesn't come from the ether. It's a power from a class. It isn't from the character's class, but it's still from a class. Dilettante even says "choose an at-will power from a class" (emphasis mine). The source of the power is still not from a class. The bonus feat is still a feat. Therefore it can be retrained. And it isn't the racial feature being retrained; it's the feat. And likewise, the extra power is still a power, not the racial feature.
#7 Dralenan May 11, 2009 2:40:28	The power chosen by the race feature is not a class power. Even though it comes from a class, it is not used within terms of the class. Because Dilettante is not a class power, but a racial one, it wouldn't follow the same restriction. So retraining a class-free racial power would require it to be a level 1 at-will attack power from any class.
#8 szwanger May 11, 2009 7:27:53	The source of the power is irrelevant. The PHB makes no exception for a class power that is acquired by means of a racial feature. The old power is from a class; ergo, the new power must be from the same class.
#9 Astromath May 11, 2009 11:06:50	szwanger & MwaO: have you got confirmation of your stances from Customer Service? I ask because there seems to be two equally valid opinions on the interpretation of the rules.
#10 szwanger May 11, 2009 11:56:43	szwanger & MwaO: have you got confirmation of your stances from Customer Service? I ask because there seems to be two equally valid opinions on the interpretation of the rules. I have not asked Customer Service, but to be honest I doubt it would accomplish much regardless of their answer: CS answers are not official and are poorly disseminated, and CS has a reputation for being inconsistent and/or wrong. Certainly some people who disagree with their answer would just pass it off as meaningless; that's happened before with other questions. If WotC's intent is for the Dilettante's choice of power to be retrainable to powers from other classes, the best way to address that is to issue errata. Errata is official and is more widely disseminated than CS answers. I'd suggest something along these lines: "Dilettante: when you level, you may retrain your choice of power to a power from any other class that is different from your own. This counts as your retraining for that level."
#11 Astromath May 11, 2009 12:27:07	I believe the best way to have it become errata is to notify CS and have them pass it on to the errata people. Otherwise, I believe as far as the mechanics of the rules CB interprets the rules correctly.
#12 mwao_dup May 11, 2009 13:10:53	szwanger & MwaO: have you got confirmation of your stances from Customer Service? I ask because there seems to be two equally valid opinions on the interpretation of the rules. Yes, I have(albeit a long time ago, they could have changed their minds)
#13 Forgarn May 12, 2009 11:06:19	It says absolutely nothing in the retraining section about racial features that grant feats, powers, and skills being unable to be retrained. Reading it that strictly results in bizarro things like humans being unable to retrain their bonus feats. In my game not only can the half-elf not retrain their Dilettante choice, but the human cannot retrain their human bonus feat or at-will power. And here is why: If you look at the CB, it specifically lists those items as "human" or "half-elf" instead of "power" or "feat" like all the other items do. This is just like the Wizard getting Ritual Caster or Alchemist, it is listed as "Wizard" instead of "feat." Here is an example. I created a human cleric. Under the feat section I have listed "Cleric," "Human," "1st Level." Also if you look at the Human description, the bonus feat and bonus at-will power are listed under "racial traits" making them part of the race, not free selections. Since the dragonborn cannot retrain his dragon breath type (chosen at creation) without choosing a feat to do it, or retrain the ability that he uses his breath with (also chosen at creation) at all, then why should the human or the half-elf? But as I said in the other thread on this, it would be nice to hear from WotC on this as there are 2 or 3 other threads on this very topic.
#14 mwao_dup May 12, 2009 12:18:56	Since the dragonborn cannot retrain his dragon breath type (chosen at creation) without choosing a feat to do it, or retrain the ability that he uses his breath with (also chosen at creation) at all, then why should the human or the half-elf? The Dragonborn ability specifically states that they cannot change it. Human and Half-Elf do not say any such thing is one big difference.
#15 Forgarn May 12, 2009 14:30:46	The Dragonborn ability specifically states that they cannot change it. Human and Half-Elf do not say any such thing is one big difference. And yet there is feat that allows you to switch between it and another damage type. So it can be changed.
#16 mwao_dup May 12, 2009 14:42:13	And yet there is feat that allows you to switch between it and another damage type. So it can be changed. Not entirely sure why you think that's relevant. That doesn't actually let you change your racial power option. It gives you the option to choose between your racial power option and another one - you're still stuck with the original racial power choice.
#17 Forgarn May 12, 2009 15:58:49	Not entirely sure why you think that's relevant. That doesn't actually let you change your racial power option. It gives you the option to choose between your racial power option and another one - you're still stuck with the original racial power choice. Because you stated that it cannot be changed. And in actuality it does not state that it cannot be changed, The PHB states: These two choices remain throughout your character’s life and do not change the power’s other effects. But you are correct, we are getting a little off topic. So, until something official comes out from WotC about this we are technically both correct. In your game they can be retrained and in mine they cannot be retrained. You chose to look at it as "all things are possible unless specifically stated otherwise" and I look at it the other way.