A simple check of various Dark Sun books produced during the TSR era shows that clerics and cleric spells are frequently used, and that other beings and various things provide the powers to clerics, instead of deities, and effectively take the deity's place in all respects. There is even a section of the 4th edition book that allows for clerics to be used in Dark Sun, but they would receive their power from other sources (like the 2nd edition versions do).
Unfortunately, the makers of the Character Builder decided to not allow the other divine classes to be an option, citing that the lack fo deities was a special feature unique for the setting. However, another special feature that is unique for the setting, the extermination of numerous races, was completely ignored. Races such as gnomes, goblins, bugbears, and orcs were allowed in the Dark Sun section of the character builder, despite the fact that setting states that they were all killed off by the various champions before they became sorcerer kings. The discovery that Rajaat wanted to kill all the races aside from halflings, was the impetus for the champions to rise up and become the sorcerer kings. The cleansing wars and the frequent use of defiler magic is why Dark Sun is a desolate land the first place! To me, the extinction of races seems to be a far more important special feature of Dark Sun.
Now, the 4th edition Dark Sun Campaign setting does allow for loopholes to be made, and the character builder allows for those extinct races to be used, despite that the extinction of races is a far more prevalent theme in the Dark Sun setting. I know that almost everything in the Dark Sun section is now offered in the D&D Home Campaign section, however, if a GM requires me to just use the Dark Sun section, I cannot choose a cleric as an option, but I can play an orc, despite it being dead in the general Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
So, if extinct races are allowed and present as choices, then why are clerics and the other non-included divine classes not in the character builder? It should be both, or neither, as according to the 4th edition Dark Sun Campaign Guide, extinct races can only be played at the option of the DM, making it a house rule, and not part of the general setting.
I understand that there was some idea that when the Dark Sun part of the character builder was created, there should not be any divine classes. Unfortunately, if you look at many of the TSR 2nd edition books, there are TONS of references to clerics and cleric spells. In Dark Sun, there isn't any deities to power divine spells, however, that does not mean that clerics themselves do not exist.
A simple check of various Dark Sun books produced during the TSR era shows that clerics and cleric spells are frequently used, and that other beings and various things provide the powers to clerics, instead of deities, and effectively take the deity's place in all respects. There is even a section of the 4th edition book that allows for clerics to be used in Dark Sun, but they would receive their power from other sources (like the 2nd edition versions do).
Unfortunately, the makers of the Character Builder decided to not allow the other divine classes to be an option, citing that the lack fo deities was a special feature unique for the setting. However, another special feature that is unique for the setting, the extermination of numerous races, was completely ignored. Races such as gnomes, goblins, bugbears, and orcs were allowed in the Dark Sun section of the character builder, despite the fact that setting states that they were all killed off by the various champions before they became sorcerer kings. The discovery that Rajaat wanted to kill all the races aside from halflings, was the impetus for the champions to rise up and become the sorcerer kings. The cleansing wars and the frequent use of defiler magic is why Dark Sun is a desolate land the first place! To me, the extinction of races seems to be a far more important special feature of Dark Sun.
Now, the 4th edition Dark Sun Campaign setting does allow for loopholes to be made, and the character builder allows for those extinct races to be used, despite that the extinction of races is a far more prevalent theme in the Dark Sun setting. I know that almost everything in the Dark Sun section is now offered in the D&D Home Campaign section, however, if a GM requires me to just use the Dark Sun section, I cannot choose a cleric as an option, but I can play an orc, despite it being dead in the general Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
So, if extinct races are allowed and present as choices, then why are clerics and the other non-included divine classes not in the character builder? It should be both, or neither, as according to the 4th edition Dark Sun Campaign Guide, extinct races can only be played at the option of the DM, making it a house rule, and not part of the general setting.
You can still only play an Orc if your DM allows you to. This is as true in Dark Sun as it is in any campaign. Sure the character builder may allow it, but the character builder isn't running your game. If your DM has restrictions (such as "you can only play the races outlined in the Campaign Guide"), he should tell you before you make your character, and what the CB lets you do be damned.
A good story and maybe some liberal refluffing can Athasize a race that should otherwise be extinct (or just absent from the canon, like Dragonborn and Tieflings were). If you like the Gnome mechanics, work with your DM to change the name and fluff, and make yourself a Gnome-like race that fits in with Dark Sun. Wizards did not make it impossible to make one of these characters because they aren't playing at our tables or running our games for us.
By the way, there is a trick to getting a "Divine Dark Sun character." Use the Custom campaign, and enable Dark Sun features on the character management tab. This will allow you to make a Divine class with Dark Sun themes.
You can still only play an Orc if your DM allows you to. This is as true in Dark Sun as it is in any campaign. Sure the character builder may allow it, but the character builder isn't running your game. If your DM has restrictions (such as "you can only play the races outlined in the Campaign Guide"), he should tell you before you make your character, and what the CB lets you do be damned.
Yes, but that falls under the Home Campaign section. I'm referring to flaws in the concepts of how the Dark Sun section of the Character Builder was designed.
A good story and maybe some liberal refluffing can Athasize a race that should otherwise be extinct (or just absent from the canon, like Dragonborn and Tieflings were). If you like the Gnome mechanics, work with your DM to change the name and fluff, and make yourself a Gnome-like race that fits in with Dark Sun. Wizards did not make it impossible to make one of these characters because they aren't playing at our tables or running our games for us.
Again, this is more of a house rule, which falls under the Home Campaign section, and not the general Dark Sun section. My discussion covers comments made by the designers for the lack of divine classes in the formal Dark Sun section of the character builder. An example of this thought can be found here in the forum, and here on the web page.
You'll note that in the "Eight Characteristics of Athas", it does not mention at all that many races were completely killed off, which coupled with defiling magic, is why Dark Sun is a desert wasteland. It is one of the most important features of Dark Sun. Life is hard. Many monsters and races that you know of, are dead or drastically different. All stemming from Rajaat and his attempts to return to world to a more perfect state.
By the way, there is a trick to getting a "Divine Dark Sun character." Use the Custom campaign, and enable Dark Sun features on the character management tab. This will allow you to make a Divine class with Dark Sun themes.
I know. I stated that in my first post. I'm stating that the creators of the Dark Sun section of the character builder allowed the option of a user to play completely dead races, but did not allow the user the option to play divine classes. They should either add the option and put it on the bottom of the list, or remove the dead races from the Dark Sun section and leave it in the Home Campaign section, as the use of extinct races is an optional rule.
You can still only play an Orc if your DM allows you to. This is as true in Dark Sun as it is in any campaign. Sure the character builder may allow it, but the character builder isn't running your game. If your DM has restrictions (such as "you can only play the races outlined in the Campaign Guide"), he should tell you before you make your character, and what the CB lets you do be damned.
Yes, but that falls under the Home Campaign section. I'm referring to flaws in the concepts of how the Dark Sun section of the Character Builder was designed.
If your only real complaint is that Dark Sun has restricted elements, while other campaigns do not, I agree with you. It is the DM who should make the final determination about whether Dvine characters will be restricted or whether he will allow them.
A good story and maybe some liberal refluffing can Athasize a race that should otherwise be extinct (or just absent from the canon, like Dragonborn and Tieflings were). If you like the Gnome mechanics, work with your DM to change the name and fluff, and make yourself a Gnome-like race that fits in with Dark Sun. Wizards did not make it impossible to make one of these characters because they aren't playing at our tables or running our games for us.
Again, this is more of a house rule, which falls under the Home Campaign section, and not the general Dark Sun section. My discussion covers comments made by the designers for the lack of divine classes in the formal Dark Sun section of the character builder. An example of this thought can be found here in the forum, and here on the web page.
You'll note that in the "Eight Characteristics of Athas", it does not mention at all that many races were completely killed off, which coupled with defiling magic, is why Dark Sun is a desert wasteland. It is one of the most important features of Dark Sun. Life is hard. Many monsters and races that you know of, are dead or drastically different. All stemming from Rajaat and his attempts to return to world to a more perfect state.
You are absolutely correct, the Eight Characteristics of Athas makes no mention of the Cleansing Wars because they determined that it was NOT a defining feature of Athas. In the Campaign Guide, the Cleansing Wars gets little more than a sidebar.
The Cleansing War was a long time ago, most of the Champions of Rajaat half-assed the job (spending more of their time manuevering against each other until Rajaat had one of them killed and replaced for half-assing the job, at which point they banded together to remove Rajaat). With Rajaat's fall and Borys' ascension, the rest of the now Sorcerer Kings completely abandoned their pogroms to consolidate their power. It wasn't Athas that "killed" these races, it was man.
And as the history of man will show, genocide is extremely difficult to pull off. For example, the nations of Germany and Russia as well as the faiths of Catholicism and Islam have, at various times, tried to exterminate the Jews. These nations and faiths were commited to the deed, and they could not pull it off. Of all the Champions, only Hamanu was commited, and that was due in large part to the fact that his predecessor was killed for his failure. Intelligent peoples and tribes facing extinction will move, hide or assimilate.
I find it highly unlikely that any of those races targeted by Rajaat were actually slain to a man. At least one village, probably several, of each species should have been able to survive, and just like the other races of Athas, they would have evolved to deal with the new climate.
By the way, there is a trick to getting a "Divine Dark Sun character." Use the Custom campaign, and enable Dark Sun features on the character management tab. This will allow you to make a Divine class with Dark Sun themes.
I know. I stated that in my first post. I'm stating that the creators of the Dark Sun section of the character builder allowed the option of a user to play completely dead races, but did not allow the user the option to play divine classes. They should either add the option and put it on the bottom of the list, or remove the dead races from the Dark Sun section and leave it in the Home Campaign section, as the use of extinct races is an optional rule.
On the other hand, the lack of Divine magic was important enough to rate being on that Eight Characteristics of Athas document. The fact that the lack of Divine Magic is mentioned as important to a Dark Sun campaign, while the Cleansing War only rates a sidebar is enough justification to restrict Divine Classes, but not similarly restrict races.
But, in the interest of being able to tell the stories which satisfy us (as I said before, Wizards isn't playing at our table, nor are they running our games), the Divine classes should be unlocked in the Dark Sun tabs, and they should let the DM make the call as to whether or not they are restricted. The Divine classes can be easily refluffed to another power source, and I can think of a few campaign arcs where the ability to create Divine characters would enrich the Dark Sun world.
Really, I'm not disagreeing with you, we simply have different ideas about which themes and bits of canon are critical to the Dark Sun setting.
Once you turn on "Dark Sun", the themes, weapons, and bonus psionic powers all become available.
Why are divine characters specifically excluded if you start by selecting "Dark Sun" as your campaign? Because the Dark Sun 4e published material specifically says divine magic does not exist.
Why are other non-cleansed races still available when you start by selecting "Dark Sun" as your campaign? Because the published material specifically allows you to discuss non-DS race choices with your DM.
Divine characters are available in the CB for Darksun. Start by selecting Custom, then D&D Home capmpaign. It the bottom tab (Manage Character) turn on "Dark Sun" and "Inherent Bonuses".
Once you turn on "Dark Sun", the themes, weapons, and bonus psionic powers all become available.
I'm aware of that. I am speaking specifically about the Dark Sun section of the character builder.
Why are divine characters specifically excluded if you start by selecting "Dark Sun" as your campaign? Because the Dark Sun 4e published material specifically says divine magic does not exist.
Incorrect. Druids and Shamans exist. The Dark Sun Campaign Guide also says that divine magic can exist, and has you discuss divine class choices with your DM.
Why are other non-cleansed races still available when you start by selecting "Dark Sun" as your campaign? Because the published material specifically allows you to discuss non-DS race choices with your DM.
Correct, so if it is an optional rule in the published material, it should just be in the D&D Home Campaign section of the Character Builder.
In the general Dark Sun section of the Character Builder, it allows this optional rule to be used, and allows a player to play a normally disallowed race. The published material also says that divine classes may also be played at the DM's option, but unlike the option for dead/non-Dark Sun standard races, it is not included in the general Dark Sun section of the Character Builder.
Hence my complaint.
Oh - for the record, Druids and Shamans are Primal in 4e, not Divine. But yeah, our DS campaign is the typical "bring divine power back to Athas" campaign, which requires divine magic!.
So the issues is the inconsistency. Gotcha. The OCB is a pile. It gets a little better with each version, but logical inconsistencies like you are pointing out take a lower priority to issues that are making the tool unusable by some people.
Believe me, I am very glad that they added the option for Dark Sun elements and inherent bonuses in the Home Campaign section. It allows for more versatility in custom campaigns, and actually allowed me to play my character.
I just would like them to look at the general Dark Sun section and decide if it should be strictly just things allowed Dark Sun with the optional information shunted to the Home Campaigns, or to allow for all of the options featured in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide.
Oh - for the record, Druids and Shamans are Primal in 4e, not Divine.
Yeah, but I thought that the big thing was that each of the different powers (shadow, Primal, Psionic, Divine, etc) were all just different flavors for powers. They didn't have any actual impact on the game at all.
But yeah, our DS campaign is the typical "bring divine power back to Athas" campaign, which requires divine magic!.
Ours is similar, but more aligned with preventing Dregoth from becoming a god and restoring the Crown of Dust/reviving Ul-Athra. At the end of our campaign, one of the PCs should become the first divine god in Athas (as per what happens to Epic characters after they finish 30th level).
Oh - for the record, Druids and Shamans are Primal in 4e, not Divine.
Yeah, but I thought that the big thing was that each of the different powers (shadow, Primal, Psionic, Divine, etc) were all just different flavors for powers. They didn't have any actual impact on the game at all.
They don't, but neither does a campaign setting. A campaign setting can be described as "flavor only".
Oh - for the record, Druids and Shamans are Primal in 4e, not Divine.
Yeah, but I thought that the big thing was that each of the different powers (shadow, Primal, Psionic, Divine, etc) were all just different flavors for powers. They didn't have any actual impact on the game at all.
They don't, but neither does a campaign setting. A campaign setting can be described as "flavor only".
They do.
There are feats, PPs and EDs which have only power sources as prerequisites.