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DM is becoming problematic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Martryn
Mar 28, 2010 18:23:42 We've just entered the Shadowfell this last session and have started on Umbraforge. I'm under the impression my DM is either lazy, or just sucks.

First, last week, we kill Modra underneath the Happy Beggar. We have no real reason to go to the Shadowfell, but feel we need to scope out what's on the other side of the portal just to clear out any remnants of Modra's men.

We go to the Council of Overwatch to see if we might get a commission or some crap if we secure this portal, and also to let them know that there's a freakin' portal under the alms house that they're unaware of. They, in turn, give the party +1 tomes (a la 3rd edition). No one in the party really wanted anything like this, but it's happened. Any new PCs that come in will be slightly gimped in comparison. Whatever.

We get to the mercenary camp in the Shadowfell (I guess this is Umbraforge), and we immediately start a skill challenge, though none of us are really sure what we're supposed to be looking for. We go through a combat with some ogres, earn a few successes, then we fight some fire based creatures that came from a hole in the ground. My character is curious why the ground is shaking and chasms of lava are appearing at my feet, so I ask some slaves (the fight took place next to the slave pit) if this is normal. Lo and behold, my DM forces me to make a Diplomacy check for the slave to answer the question and we earn a failure toward the skill challenge, AND some minotaur came out of no where and impaled the slave on the fence right before my eyes. The DM let me know that it was a bad idea asking questions to the slaves when the dying slave looked into my character's eyes and said, "That's why we don't answer questions."

So, looking for some payback, we enter the slave quarter (or whatever). Apparently Modra is alive and hangs out around here, or something. We ran into a Shadar-kai Witch who said that Modra was still in the Shadowfell and that the creature we slew was actually a doppleganger (uh, what? Don't they revert to their normal forms when slain?) Next thing you know, everyone in my party is buying slaves. Two characters bought females of their species, I bought a kobold, and the party's psion bought a minotaur bodyguard. Thing is, the DM was offering all sorts of slaves for sale. If we had 1500 GP we could, apparently, buy a beholder slave, and there was a mindflayer up for grabs, a hill giant, ect. Nothing over 2,000 GP. Ridiculous.

We find this minotaur that had killed the slave by the fence, and apparently he's some sort of badass or something. We set up an ambush to get revenge for that slave or something, and the DM pulls out a level 16 Minotaur Brute. Remember, we're level 5. After the party protests this, the DM goes for this level 13 Minotaur Controller we wiped the floor with. And, of course, we fled immediately after (while the DM described the dozens of slaves being murdered in retaliation for our strike). All the while this Shadar-kai witch, who admits to being loyal to the uber badass who runs this place, is just following us around and watching us do this.

The minotaur dropped a random level 6 magic item for one of the party members. The DM just rolls who around the table gets this item, and that person can pick it from any source book. Also sorta lame.

What the hell is going on with my DM? How much of this is scripted, and should the party try talking with him (again)?

Did I mention that he brings his laundry over now to do it at my apartment, and he leaves immediately after the last die is rolled for home without offering to pick up after himself or put my apartment back in order?
#2
gargs454
Mar 28, 2010 19:47:12 Not addressing the last paragraph as that is obviously a different issue altogether.

That being said, without giving away any spoilers, the adventure itself is pretty much on rails. It makes a lot of assumptions about what the party will do (and frankly, those assumptions are not necessarily great ones). The DM is doing some of this on the fly, but not nearly all of it. Its a problem of adventure design and frankly, the adventure in at least some areas flat out tells the DM to railroad.

With regard to the slaves, I don't want to reveal anything from the adventure itself specifically, but I would note that there are no entries in any of the source books for slave prices. So, when the party goes looking to purchase slaves, the DM either has to go with what's in the module, or make something up on the fly.

Personally, I think it might be worth it to let the DM go through at least the next couple of adventures. There certainly are some problems with Umbraforge as its written.
#3
nyteskie
Mar 29, 2010 15:33:41 Pretty much what Gargs said.

I'll also add that Shadow Rift, while cool conceptually, is an absolute train wreck in action. I gave up on hiding the rails about at the point where you killed doppleganger-Modra.

As a side question, how long has your DM been DMing? Has he done published adventures before? There's really not much he can do about the plot - it just expects you to go to certain places and do certain things without really providing a good hook to get you there. It's one thing if he is doing this from inexperience and/or frustration from the adventure, but it's another if he's really uninterested in running the game. I also agree with Gargs that you should let him go for another couple of adventures.

As to the last, maybe suggest gaming at his place? It's either that or step up and make him respect your space. Or hide your detergent. Or something. Yeah.
#4
guver
Apr 09, 2010 12:06:09 I think you are being Harsh with your DM because of the last paragraph thing.

1) The adventure itself has many blind spots, so DMs have to fill it up by improvising.
2) Maybe your DM is not good at improvising, but for what you said, I believe he somehow is. He improvised a slave marquet, and a fight with a minotaur guard. A lvl 16 creature is killable by lvl 5 pcs. It's only one creature, instead of 5 creatues (which would make a lvl 16 encounter), it may be a little harder than a 5 level solo.
3) Buying slaves is fun! I would let the PCs buy a few, and then kill 1 by 1 in different encounters through the adventure. Think of them as consumables or something.
4) Regarding treasure... well, the SoW adventurers do not have treasure listed, they just give you guidelines, and it's up to each DM to decide how to give it to it's players, and when. So maybe throwing a dice and deciding randomly is not the best, but he would do so behind the scenes anyways... because as a DM you have to decide randomly.

#5
mercuryv
Apr 10, 2010 4:31:06 The Umbraforge adventure is quite open, and does require quite a lot of work from the DM in order to flesh out the details depending where the heroes go and what they want to do. Being able to buy slaves is not a bad idea, but having beholders or mind flayers as slaves there is simply ridiculous! It sounds as though the DM needs to tighten up the improv just a little and try to keep things plausible for the story and the world.

As far as magic items go, I tend to carefully go through the books and pick out stuff in advance. I try to pick items that I think the players will want and use, isn't too broken or annoying to manage, and also fits into the theme of where they find it. A few of my players tip me off on one or two items they'd like to find in the future.
#6
rekopacz
Apr 11, 2010 11:04:15 You are being WAY to harsh on your DM dude.

Let me tell you the modules in the scales of war get even crazier as things go on.

Its not your DM as much as it is the poorly written adventures in the module.

My group is just finishing the Temple Between and we all agreed that the skill challenges make no sense. There are also lots of places where the module assumes the party will just do X.

Maybe your group should play some other module if the scale of war one is upseting you (or the group) so much.

Remember its a game, just roll with it and try and have fun!
#7
behemoth0089
Apr 11, 2010 20:40:45 Well, I haven't played SoW (yet but planning to) but I think that maybe you are a little unfair with your DM. Sometimes you have to build up entire things in seconds because even when you're prepared, players ask thing you don't have in mind, so that's a little... hard, not to saying anything else. Sometimes things just work bad (being honest, I wouldn't have done that with the magic item) because of the inexperience of the DM, maybe because you don't expect something like that to happen or W.E else.
Wait a little longer, he's doing his part on the game, and I can assure he know things about the adventure you just don't imagine.
And quoting rekopacz: Remember its a game, just roll with it and try and have fun! Always discuss things out and solve the possible troubles!
#8
arymetore
Apr 12, 2010 12:13:58
I actually don't think you're being harsh on the DM. The tomes are a big WTF? Especially considering even in 3rd edition, they were valued at 27,500 gp... somewhat more than the entire value of all the treasure parcels in the entire module combined...

The issue with the questioning of the slave could go either way... on the one hand it could be incorporated into the skill challenge, though the question was at best tangential to it. That it was considered part of the challenge and was a failure is likely why he rather heavily handed had the minotaur show up, but it was still a pretty lame way to do that.

Modra/doppleganger issue is that Modra was supposed to escape (though how is pretty questionable). Doppleganger might have seemed like a good idea, but yes, they do resume their base appearance when dead (see page 280 of the MM under Change Shape). And why a doppleganger would have been impersonating a Modra trying to return to the Shadowfell sounds like a cover for trying to explain how to continue the plot with Modra dead...

The buying of slaves... ok, that was just getting ridiculous. Considering a beholder would typically be at best a lvl 13 Elite (Eye of Flame)... For one, if it really was a slave, it should have gone for much higher. Even if it was a minion, it still had the basic beholder properties and would have been a pretty high lvl minion... One of those cases where a minion might be able to take on a whole party. Yes, he was making all this up on the fly, but there are still levels of reasonableness that he should have adhered to. Or if he was going to do that, the party should have evaluated the beholder, pooled their money, and bought the beholder (while making sure you had some way to control it... that might have been extra :P). Just normal slaves or even some advanced slaves (with actual combat ability!) of common races would have been fine without going for the wild exotics.

The minotaur... this was also on the fly and way out of the range that should have been a foe of the party. Though evidently somehow you got him alone (a controller like that usually would only work well with allies)... despite there evidently being enough witnesses to decide to slaughter the slaves for something you did and they weren't even around for... The item drop was thrown in at the last moment (due to the going after the minotaur created on the fly) and so just randomly figuring out who to give it to was semi-reasonable...

That last part... you're on your own with it and how you feel about it.

When I ran this adventure, my group was pretty displeased with it. Even when I tried to run it as straight as possible with as much tweaking of the plot to cause it to not be so bad as I could without entirely rewriting it. I feel if I had done some of the things you describe, my party would have run away with the adventure and utterly trashed it... and deservedly so.
#9
guver
Apr 13, 2010 21:18:34 The tomes were hugely priced in 3rd edition were you could only increase your abilities every four levels. (In total, by LVL 20 you could only increase 5 chars.).

In 4th edition you increase two every four lvls and all every 10 level (in total 24 chars increased). I don't think the tome is a bad idea. I personally let each of my PCs increase 1 char in their birthday, it's like a bonus for keeping the character at least for 1 year, and it makes a little difference over those who change chars all the time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Martryn Mar 28, 2010 18:23:42	We've just entered the Shadowfell this last session and have started on Umbraforge. I'm under the impression my DM is either lazy, or just sucks. First, last week, we kill Modra underneath the Happy Beggar. We have no real reason to go to the Shadowfell, but feel we need to scope out what's on the other side of the portal just to clear out any remnants of Modra's men. We go to the Council of Overwatch to see if we might get a commission or some crap if we secure this portal, and also to let them know that there's a freakin' portal under the alms house that they're unaware of. They, in turn, give the party +1 tomes (a la 3rd edition). No one in the party really wanted anything like this, but it's happened. Any new PCs that come in will be slightly gimped in comparison. Whatever. We get to the mercenary camp in the Shadowfell (I guess this is Umbraforge), and we immediately start a skill challenge, though none of us are really sure what we're supposed to be looking for. We go through a combat with some ogres, earn a few successes, then we fight some fire based creatures that came from a hole in the ground. My character is curious why the ground is shaking and chasms of lava are appearing at my feet, so I ask some slaves (the fight took place next to the slave pit) if this is normal. Lo and behold, my DM forces me to make a Diplomacy check for the slave to answer the question and we earn a failure toward the skill challenge, AND some minotaur came out of no where and impaled the slave on the fence right before my eyes. The DM let me know that it was a bad idea asking questions to the slaves when the dying slave looked into my character's eyes and said, "That's why we don't answer questions." So, looking for some payback, we enter the slave quarter (or whatever). Apparently Modra is alive and hangs out around here, or something. We ran into a Shadar-kai Witch who said that Modra was still in the Shadowfell and that the creature we slew was actually a doppleganger (uh, what? Don't they revert to their normal forms when slain?) Next thing you know, everyone in my party is buying slaves. Two characters bought females of their species, I bought a kobold, and the party's psion bought a minotaur bodyguard. Thing is, the DM was offering all sorts of slaves for sale. If we had 1500 GP we could, apparently, buy a beholder slave, and there was a mindflayer up for grabs, a hill giant, ect. Nothing over 2,000 GP. Ridiculous. We find this minotaur that had killed the slave by the fence, and apparently he's some sort of badass or something. We set up an ambush to get revenge for that slave or something, and the DM pulls out a level 16 Minotaur Brute. Remember, we're level 5. After the party protests this, the DM goes for this level 13 Minotaur Controller we wiped the floor with. And, of course, we fled immediately after (while the DM described the dozens of slaves being murdered in retaliation for our strike). All the while this Shadar-kai witch, who admits to being loyal to the uber badass who runs this place, is just following us around and watching us do this. The minotaur dropped a random level 6 magic item for one of the party members. The DM just rolls who around the table gets this item, and that person can pick it from any source book. Also sorta lame. What the hell is going on with my DM? How much of this is scripted, and should the party try talking with him (again)? Did I mention that he brings his laundry over now to do it at my apartment, and he leaves immediately after the last die is rolled for home without offering to pick up after himself or put my apartment back in order?
#2 gargs454 Mar 28, 2010 19:47:12	Not addressing the last paragraph as that is obviously a different issue altogether. That being said, without giving away any spoilers, the adventure itself is pretty much on rails. It makes a lot of assumptions about what the party will do (and frankly, those assumptions are not necessarily great ones). The DM is doing some of this on the fly, but not nearly all of it. Its a problem of adventure design and frankly, the adventure in at least some areas flat out tells the DM to railroad. With regard to the slaves, I don't want to reveal anything from the adventure itself specifically, but I would note that there are no entries in any of the source books for slave prices. So, when the party goes looking to purchase slaves, the DM either has to go with what's in the module, or make something up on the fly. Personally, I think it might be worth it to let the DM go through at least the next couple of adventures. There certainly are some problems with Umbraforge as its written.
#3 nyteskie Mar 29, 2010 15:33:41	Pretty much what Gargs said. I'll also add that Shadow Rift, while cool conceptually, is an absolute train wreck in action. I gave up on hiding the rails about at the point where you killed doppleganger-Modra. As a side question, how long has your DM been DMing? Has he done published adventures before? There's really not much he can do about the plot - it just expects you to go to certain places and do certain things without really providing a good hook to get you there. It's one thing if he is doing this from inexperience and/or frustration from the adventure, but it's another if he's really uninterested in running the game. I also agree with Gargs that you should let him go for another couple of adventures. As to the last, maybe suggest gaming at his place? It's either that or step up and make him respect your space. Or hide your detergent. Or something. Yeah.
#4 guver Apr 09, 2010 12:06:09	I think you are being Harsh with your DM because of the last paragraph thing. 1) The adventure itself has many blind spots, so DMs have to fill it up by improvising. 2) Maybe your DM is not good at improvising, but for what you said, I believe he somehow is. He improvised a slave marquet, and a fight with a minotaur guard. A lvl 16 creature is killable by lvl 5 pcs. It's only one creature, instead of 5 creatues (which would make a lvl 16 encounter), it may be a little harder than a 5 level solo. 3) Buying slaves is fun! I would let the PCs buy a few, and then kill 1 by 1 in different encounters through the adventure. Think of them as consumables or something. 4) Regarding treasure... well, the SoW adventurers do not have treasure listed, they just give you guidelines, and it's up to each DM to decide how to give it to it's players, and when. So maybe throwing a dice and deciding randomly is not the best, but he would do so behind the scenes anyways... because as a DM you have to decide randomly.
#5 mercuryv Apr 10, 2010 4:31:06	The Umbraforge adventure is quite open, and does require quite a lot of work from the DM in order to flesh out the details depending where the heroes go and what they want to do. Being able to buy slaves is not a bad idea, but having beholders or mind flayers as slaves there is simply ridiculous! It sounds as though the DM needs to tighten up the improv just a little and try to keep things plausible for the story and the world. As far as magic items go, I tend to carefully go through the books and pick out stuff in advance. I try to pick items that I think the players will want and use, isn't too broken or annoying to manage, and also fits into the theme of where they find it. A few of my players tip me off on one or two items they'd like to find in the future.
#6 rekopacz Apr 11, 2010 11:04:15	You are being WAY to harsh on your DM dude. Let me tell you the modules in the scales of war get even crazier as things go on. Its not your DM as much as it is the poorly written adventures in the module. My group is just finishing the Temple Between and we all agreed that the skill challenges make no sense. There are also lots of places where the module assumes the party will just do X. Maybe your group should play some other module if the scale of war one is upseting you (or the group) so much. Remember its a game, just roll with it and try and have fun!
#7 behemoth0089 Apr 11, 2010 20:40:45	Well, I haven't played SoW (yet but planning to) but I think that maybe you are a little unfair with your DM. Sometimes you have to build up entire things in seconds because even when you're prepared, players ask thing you don't have in mind, so that's a little... hard, not to saying anything else. Sometimes things just work bad (being honest, I wouldn't have done that with the magic item) because of the inexperience of the DM, maybe because you don't expect something like that to happen or W.E else. Wait a little longer, he's doing his part on the game, and I can assure he know things about the adventure you just don't imagine. And quoting rekopacz: Remember its a game, just roll with it and try and have fun! Always discuss things out and solve the possible troubles!
#8 arymetore Apr 12, 2010 12:13:58	I actually don't think you're being harsh on the DM. The tomes are a big WTF? Especially considering even in 3rd edition, they were valued at 27,500 gp... somewhat more than the entire value of all the treasure parcels in the entire module combined... The issue with the questioning of the slave could go either way... on the one hand it could be incorporated into the skill challenge, though the question was at best tangential to it. That it was considered part of the challenge and was a failure is likely why he rather heavily handed had the minotaur show up, but it was still a pretty lame way to do that. Modra/doppleganger issue is that Modra was supposed to escape (though how is pretty questionable). Doppleganger might have seemed like a good idea, but yes, they do resume their base appearance when dead (see page 280 of the MM under Change Shape). And why a doppleganger would have been impersonating a Modra trying to return to the Shadowfell sounds like a cover for trying to explain how to continue the plot with Modra dead... The buying of slaves... ok, that was just getting ridiculous. Considering a beholder would typically be at best a lvl 13 Elite (Eye of Flame)... For one, if it really was a slave, it should have gone for much higher. Even if it was a minion, it still had the basic beholder properties and would have been a pretty high lvl minion... One of those cases where a minion might be able to take on a whole party. Yes, he was making all this up on the fly, but there are still levels of reasonableness that he should have adhered to. Or if he was going to do that, the party should have evaluated the beholder, pooled their money, and bought the beholder (while making sure you had some way to control it... that might have been extra :P). Just normal slaves or even some advanced slaves (with actual combat ability!) of common races would have been fine without going for the wild exotics. The minotaur... this was also on the fly and way out of the range that should have been a foe of the party. Though evidently somehow you got him alone (a controller like that usually would only work well with allies)... despite there evidently being enough witnesses to decide to slaughter the slaves for something you did and they weren't even around for... The item drop was thrown in at the last moment (due to the going after the minotaur created on the fly) and so just randomly figuring out who to give it to was semi-reasonable... That last part... you're on your own with it and how you feel about it. When I ran this adventure, my group was pretty displeased with it. Even when I tried to run it as straight as possible with as much tweaking of the plot to cause it to not be so bad as I could without entirely rewriting it. I feel if I had done some of the things you describe, my party would have run away with the adventure and utterly trashed it... and deservedly so.
#9 guver Apr 13, 2010 21:18:34	The tomes were hugely priced in 3rd edition were you could only increase your abilities every four levels. (In total, by LVL 20 you could only increase 5 chars.). In 4th edition you increase two every four lvls and all every 10 level (in total 24 chars increased). I don't think the tome is a bad idea. I personally let each of my PCs increase 1 char in their birthday, it's like a bonus for keeping the character at least for 1 year, and it makes a little difference over those who change chars all the time.